August 4, 2025 • 22 mins
Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcome
Today's guest is author Chloe Caldwell's second interview for The Bleeders podcast. In this episode, Chloe shares two submission stories—one a nightmare and one a dream—along with advice for other writers on submission. Follow Chloe on Instagram @chloeeeecaldwell and buy her new memoir, Trying, out on August 5th from Graywolf Press.
If you missed Chloe's first interview, listen here.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
Today's guest is author Chloe Caldwell's second interview for The Bleeders podcast. In this episode, Chloe shares two submission stories—one a nightmare and one a dream—along with advice for other writers on submission. Follow Chloe on Instagram @chloeeeecaldwell and buy her new memoir, Trying, out on August 5th from Graywolf Press.
If you missed Chloe's first interview, listen here.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
- Land Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminar
- The Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writeordiemag.com/workshops/p/the-multi-passionate-writers-life
- How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminar
- Back to School Pitch Party (use code BLEEDERS for $75 off): https://www.courtneykocak.com/teaching
- Creating Your Podcast: https://www.roadmapwriters.com/products/creating-your-podcast-0
- Start a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminar
- Podcasting for Writers: How to Start, Sustain & Grow Your Podcast: https://writingworkshops.com/products/podcasting-for-writers-how-to-start-sustain-grow-your-podcast-4-week-zoom-workshop
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
So this day was like a horrible day. I had
meetings from let's say, like nine am to five pm.
I met with HarperCollins and hang with Random House and
Emily Bessler Books and like back to back to back.
So it started with like meeting an editor for a
Green Juice and her telling you why she couldn't do
the book, and then meeting someone for a coffee and
them telling you what I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Do the book.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Today's guest is Chloe Caldwell, and she's gonna tell us
a submission horror story.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This was like a big agent who represents all of
these writers you and I both love. So I thought
that that was like my ticket. It's never whenever you
think it's your ticket is not.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Chloe is full of publishing wisdom in this episode. She
shares that submission nightmare and the dream scenario of how
her iconic queer novella Women got picked up for re
release by Harper Perennial though Less, as well as her
tips for writers trying to stay sane while on submission.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
There's nothing to writing.
Speaker 5 (01:05):
All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support group about
book writing and publishing. I'm writer and podcaster Courtney Coosak,
and each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors,
agents and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Hi, my name is Chloe Caldwell. I'm the author of
the essay collection leg Skalet Astray, the novella Women, the
essay collection I'll Tell You In Person, and the memoir
The Red Zone and Bleeders.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
I am thrilled to tell you that Chloe has a
new book, Trying, a memoir. I have read an Advanced
reader copy. It is so freaking good. You need to
order your copy. And of course I have talked to
Chloe for a previous interview on this podcast which she
talked about becoming an author of her first four books
(02:12):
and how she did it the indie way, and it's
such a good episode, so I highly recommend you check
that out after you listen to this conversation. Okay, let's
get into it.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
So everyone should ken and should listen to your first
interview where we talked about what rebel indie writer you are.
I guess I don't know which of those ever went
on submission, but I saw your latest book, you know,
was like on Publishers Marketplace and like had an official thing,
(02:44):
so that must have gone out on submission. No, no,
it did not.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Know. All of my books were on Publisher's Marketplace except
for Legs, Get let Astray. Oh really yeah, yeah, even
the indies, you can still like the publisher can still
submit it to Publishers Marketplace. So like Women was announced there,
I'll Tell You in Person was announced there in the
Red Zone, and then my next one with Gray Wolf,
but that one did not go on submission. That went
(03:10):
directly to an editor. But I do have a good
story of my submission, Nightmare, and that is for my
book I'll Tell You in Person, which was published by
Coffeehouse in twenty sixteen. Yeah, when I look back on
this what happened during that submission, I still get anxiety.
(03:31):
It just it was not I do not have fond
memories of it. So I was working with an agent
at the time she's no longer an agent, and she
was really excited about me. She had read my book Women.
She wanted me to do another essay collection. I was
obsessed with essays. I was obviously totally down. I was excited,
(03:53):
so I wrote the essay collection that would evolve into
all it tellian person, but you know how it is.
The first draft was so thin, just so thin and terrible.
And I was a new writer. I mean I was
how old was I twenty seven or so? Twenty seven,
twenty eight? So I sent it to my agent. I'm like, oh,
(04:14):
do you think it's ready? And she's like almost, you know,
she was like overly sort of overly optimistic about me.
So did another draft, and I can't quite remember how
long I worked on this, let's say a year. It
still was not ready. I mean I knew in my
heart it wasn't ready, but she told me it was,
(04:35):
and so I thought, wow, maybe she sees something in
me that I don't see, Like maybe I'm a genius,
you know, like I was like, yeah, I was like,
holy holy shit. She thinks I'm just the best writer.
And okay, I think it's bad. But if she thinks
it's good, like she's she's the agent.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
So she brought it out to all the publishers, like
all the big publishers and the imprint and everybody, and
the rejections started to roll in, and some of them
were actually really helpful.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
I think I might have used some in class with you, actually,
because I got these amazing rejection letters that like went
through every essay and it was really like a like
a nice craft lesson on essay writing. So that was fine.
It was still sort of a bummer, especially because my
agent had said things like let's pop the champagne and
(05:30):
like you're gonna get six figures, like it was like
a girl's episode or something. So but the worst thing
that happened, Courtney was that there was an editor working
at Riverhead. And this editor was new and young, and
she was a huge fan of mine, and she wanted
to do a book with me so badly, and she
(05:52):
knew my work so well, and we sent her the
book and obviously, you know, I was so naive. I'm like,
this is amazing, Like Riverhead's gonna be. She wrote a
long rejection letter and it was the smartest rejection letter,
but like it was rough, you know, she called it
shallow and just said I was capable of so much more.
(06:13):
All of these things I agreed with, but I do
remember like crying in the shower, and it gets worse
from there. No, because my agent was like, well, do
a quick rewrite and let's like submit it to them again.
And I was like, really, like, she seemed pretty firm
(06:34):
on the no, Like, I think it would take me
longer than like three weeks. It would probably take me
like three years to get it where this editor wants
it to be right. And I also knew the book
I was writing. I do have a gift of like
knowing where my book sort of belongs. I knew this
wasn't a mainstream essay collection. It didn't have a hook,
(06:55):
it didn't have anything super catchy. I knew it was
sort of quirky. So I was thinking, like, why would
they publish this book? And not like in a self
deprecating way, I just I just knew. So she had
me do another draft to send a riverhead, which is
just already bad because then you're writing with Riverhead in
(07:16):
mind and you're just totally panicked. So I did that.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
I mean, was it just a cursory rewrite where you're
just kind of tweaking.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Well, it was based on her feedback the rejection letter,
and she, you know, she had said, like, send it
to me again if there's a massive rewrite or something.
I think, So we submitted it again and she rejected
it again. It was terrible, and I had to go
to an This is pre pandemic, so all of these
(07:43):
meetings were in person. I had to I was so
broke and I had to take the train down to
the city to sit with people to reject me to
my face. So I sat with this editor and she
rejected it again. We were in this bright room with
fluorescent lights, and I was like, thank you. And previous
to that, I had had another day where my agent
(08:04):
had set up meetings with me with everybody. So this
day was like a horrible day. I had meetings from
let's say, like nine am to five pm. I met
with Harper Collins and Penguin, Random House and Emily Butler
Books and like back to back to back. So it
started with like meeting an editor for a Green Juice
and her telling you why she couldn't do the book,
(08:26):
and then meeting someone for a coffee and them telling
you why they couldn't do the book, and meeting someone
for lunch. And I went to lunch with an editor
at Harper Perennial or Harper Collins, and I had my
manuscript in my backpack, and I'll never forget but we
sat outside this restaurant and he said, I think I've
talked about this class. He said, your manuscript is a
(08:47):
it's a Chevy when it could be a Cadillac. And
I was like okay, and I went to the bathroom
and I threw it in the carpet, being really dull.
I mean, it was just like a random print out.
Was it like meaningful? But I was like, fuck this.
I just felt like, like, you feel like shit going
(09:07):
to these meetings, especially like you're spending money like I
was broke for them. They're just going to like a
fun lunch for me.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
It seems inhumane to do like four of them in
a day.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I know. It kind of now reminds me of like
the whole meme of like this could have been an email,
like why am I now I have to sit through
lunch with you? It was really really bad. But that
same day I had a meeting with Coffee House, which
Emily Books, like Emily Gold had started Emily Books, and
(09:39):
Emily and I were hanging out a bit at the time,
and I told her what I was going through and
she said, why didn't your agent send it to us?
And I said, that's a really good question, and she's like,
can you send it to me. I'm like, I would
love to send it to you, like I love Coffee
House and I love Emily books. So that happened without
my agent, and I had to kind of convince my
agent like, I know they're an indeed, but they're really great.
(10:02):
I think this book might be good for them. So
she set up a meeting with them. So I went
to a meeting with Emily Gould and Caroline Casey, who
was a marketing person at Coffee House at the time,
and that meeting was incredible, and they were the ones
who were like supportive and giving me feedback on the
book and loved it and wanted to do the book.
So then it turned into conversations between my agent and
I where my agent still wanted me to do another
(10:25):
draft and send it again to all the big publishers,
and I know she wasn't my agent anymore after that.
I mean, and to her credit, I'm like, wow, she
had so much faith in me. But again, if it
were a different book, if it were a different essay
collection with different stories or something more marketable, I would
(10:47):
have done it. But I knew, I'm like, this is
like a quirky essay collection. This is a coffee House book.
And what was so sad about this, Courtney, is like
going with Coffeehouse should have been this amazing feeling, like
Coffeehouse is incredible, Yeah, with your friend as an editor, Like, yeah,
they were. They were treating me so well, like offering
(11:08):
me in advance. But what was so sad is that,
like it looked like a failure based on how I
was set up. Right, if I had sold it to
Coffee House on my own, it would have been like,
holy shit, I sold a book. But I had to
go through that. So because I had to have all
these conversations with my agent and sort of convince her
that even though it was less money, I wanted to
(11:30):
go with coffee House, which ultimately was one million percent
the right choice. Yeah. So that's that's the story of
I'll tell you in person. And this played out for
a few months like this was like you know, from
we probably submitted it. Oh, she submitted my book to
publishers on April Fool's Day, which I already thought was
(11:52):
like ada. And then I think by the time I
signed with them, it was like July or August, like
it was intense but I felt great about going with Coffeehouse,
and then also sort of sad that I had like
let my agent down and I was supposed to get
six figures and like all, you know, all of this
(12:14):
stuff she had been saying. But I also knew who
I was, and I trusted that that was where the
book belonged, and that was like that book sold really
well for me. I had an amazing experience. It was
how it was supposed to be.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
And those meetings I went on, I'm sure were I
don't know if they were good experiences, but they're they're
own essay for they're a story.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah. Yeah, So that's what happened.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
So I'm kind of surprised, Like if I were an
professional editor and knowing your work before, if I were
the girl at Riverhead, I would.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
Want to like help you shape the book into what
I saw as its potential.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
So I guess that's just like the confusing part as
a writer.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So here's what it is. She wanted that so bad,
and I think we would have worked so well together,
but that one person has to convince an into higher
room of people, yes, and that's where it's hard, especially
if that person's new at their job. So for her,
she had just started there. She was younger than I was, like,
(13:18):
so she didn't really she didn't have the sway or
the poll, or even if they do have the sway
in the poll, they could go into that meeting and
if you know, six out of ten people are like, no,
this isn't going to work for our team. It's a no.
So that's where I think things are hard, because sometimes
I do think the editor wants to acquire the book,
but if they can't get the whole team behind it,
(13:41):
they can't, and so it's sort of a flawed system.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
So then Red Zone was next, And did that just
go to soft school right away? Or did that ever
go out?
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Like that didn't go out either. I was with a
different agent at that time. I really wanted it to
go out really really badly. I didn't have a book proposal.
I just had a draft of the book. It's like
so unique, like of a past. I I think if
I had had the right agent who knew how to
(14:19):
market that book or think about that book, talk about
that book, pitch that book, something could have happened with it.
But that wasn't the experience I had. I had the
opposite so I was with a different agent by then,
and that agent sort of ghosted me and then finally admitted, like,
I don't have a.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Vision for this book, and I was like, now you
tell me.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
So I was really disappointed. This was like a big
agent who represents all of these writers you and I
both love. So I thought that that was like my ticket.
It's never whatever you think it's your ticket, it's not.
So so that didn't go out, and that was that
was disappointing. But also again went with an indie I
(15:03):
had had a relationship or I knew who Yuka Igorash
she was because she was an editor of my friend's
book and my friend Chelsea Martin's book who's been on
this podcast, and I thought Uka might see something in
the material because Chelsea's book was so weird and this
book was weird. So I could sort of emailed her like, hey,
(15:24):
remember me, I have this book. I was wondering if
you're interested, And what I will say is you could
did end up buying it, and Uka ended up also
buying my book for gray Wolf, where she is now.
But even that process with a known editor, even with
this latest gray Wolf book, I think I reached out
to Yuka like July of twenty twenty two, and it
(15:46):
was almost a year later that she felt comfortable bringing
it to her team. What mm hmm. We had conversations,
we had emails, We went back and forth, like getting
the manuscript more in shape, Like she wasn't just like, yeah,
I want to do a book with you, let me
pitch it to my team. And that's with someone that's
with my second book with her, So even that isn't
(16:08):
like a shoe in and even that she still has
to present it to her team, and her team could
still say no. So yeah, it's hard out there. What
happened recently really quickly because you'll think this is interesting
because I think you reviewed this book or we connected
over my book Women just now I'm on my third
agent who is epic, and she took the rights Women
(16:32):
has been out of print, so the rights reverted back
to me. So she took the rights of that out
to the big publishers and it was a more straightforward
submission process where I got meetings with a bunch of
interested places and publishers, and the publishers made offers and
I ended up going with Harper Perennial, which is funny
(16:55):
because that's the same bad meeting I had.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yank you.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
It's going to be out during Pride of June twenty
twenty four. Yeah, it's really exciting. It's going to have
a new forward. But I finally got to have the
experience and I didn't have to go down the city
and like get rejected for once. Like I got to
just sit on zoom and they all told me why
they wanted the book, and I'm like, wow, this is
the opposite experience of all of my like the past
(17:21):
ten years. That is like that felt good. Yeah, it
actually was the most I went out to dinner with
my mom. I was like, that was the most ideal
situation I've ever had in the writing industry ever, and
they are far and few between, so you take what
you can get. But yeah, that felt like some good
karma after like all of the all of the shit.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
So what's your advice to me and all the other
struggling writers on submission, either like technical advice like don't
send your age in a crazy list or whatever, or
like anxiety advice. Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I think doing this is so because you have a
place to talk to other people, so you're not as
isolated as I feel like I was back in twenty sixteen,
just driving friends crazy on the phone. This is actually genius.
I think distractions are huge.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I know that some writers do the whole work on
another project thing. I find that so hard. I find
that so hard. And I think accepting that whatever idea
you have in your head, it is probably going to
go in the craziest past and directions that you couldn't
even imagine, and it's fun, Like that's actually part of
the fun is like, Okay, I have no idea what's
going to happen. So I really don't have that much
(18:38):
advice for you because it's so hard. But yeah, talking
to other writers to keep you saying, distract yourself in
any healthy wace that you can go back for more,
go back for more rejections like I did. I don't
think anyone should do what I did of like, yeah,
I'll revise it again.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
Did it?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Sitting there? It was so like Hannah horror At It's like,
who do you think you are? You think Riverhead is
just going to give you the six figure deal because
you like you like change the opening of an essay.
You fucking moron. It's just I wish I had a
video camera to like see those dates, see me at
those meetings.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
I'd just dude, if I would have published Women, I
would have been like, yeah, the next thing's gonna be.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I guess. I just I just this book was not
It was not it like the only time. Now I'm
happy with how the book came, but that's after I
sold it, like to coffee house, like they helped me
make it good, but it was not good. So yeah.
And also like being prepared to go on when you
go on your meetings, to be prepared, that's another thing.
I never I would just show up and be like, hey,
what's going on? Like I didn't know what to ask.
(19:41):
I didn't know.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Anything, So what's being prepared?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Like researching them or yeah, researching them, thinking in advance
what questions you have for them, instead of making it
like I don't know.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
For me, I would just kind of wing it, or
I'd get off a meeting and be like, oh, I should.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Have asked this, So writing down questions in advance, knowing
who they are, knowing their names, like knowing who's going
to be there. One time I went to a meeting,
I thought was just the editor and then the entire
team was there. So just being somewhat prepped and remembering
you don't just have to wow them, like you also
need to like them. They have to wow you a
(20:17):
little bit too, so you're allowed to also have questions
like taking some of the power back, you.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Know, yes, I love Yeah, that's a good place.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Instead of instead of like showing up desperate of like
please anything.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, that's how I feel that, I know, I know.
Any final submission thoughts or maybe cover it.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
That's it. Just be persistent, like keep doing it, doing it,
doing it like it's not going to get anywhere if
you give up after a few submissions, Like it's really
not for the faint of heart.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
Thanks for joining me for this episode of The Bleeders.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Writing is so much better with friends.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
I'm your host, Courtney Cosack, and hey, let's connect on
social media. I am at Courtney Kosak last name Iscak.
I am on Twitter, I am on Instagram, I am
on Blue Sky, I am on TikTok, I'm everywhere, baby,
And of course, make sure you get Chloe's book, Trying
a Memoir. It is out August fifth, which is basically
(21:15):
one day after this is published, so you can order
your copy and you will get at asap, and I
can a test. I've already read it. It is so
so good you're gonna gobble it right up, probably in
one night. So make sure you order that, and make
sure you're signed up for the Bleeder's Companion substack for
all kinds of newsletter exclusives. I have a link for
(21:37):
that in the episode description. I have a paid.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Subscription for The Bleeders.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
Where I take you behind the scenes of all my
best buylines. I'm taking you behind the scenes of my
debut memoir, Girl Gone Wild, which will be out with
Trio House Press in March of twenty twenty six, and
I've written about my return to stand up comedy, how
I got ready to crush my showcase, and whether or
not I think it is worth it. I also have
(22:03):
a few mini workshops behind the paywall, so again there
is a link for the substack in the episode description.
I hope you join me over there, and I hope
you join me again here next week for another inspiring episode.
In the meantime, Happy Bleeding
So this day was like a horrible day. I had
meetings from let's say, like nine am to five pm.
I met with HarperCollins and hang with Random House and
Emily Bessler Books and like back to back to back.
So it started with like meeting an editor for a
Green Juice and her telling you why she couldn't do
the book, and then meeting someone for a coffee and
them telling you what I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Do the book.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Today's guest is Chloe Caldwell, and she's gonna tell us
a submission horror story.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This was like a big agent who represents all of
these writers you and I both love. So I thought
that that was like my ticket. It's never whenever you
think it's your ticket is not.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Chloe is full of publishing wisdom in this episode. She
shares that submission nightmare and the dream scenario of how
her iconic queer novella Women got picked up for re
release by Harper Perennial though Less, as well as her
tips for writers trying to stay sane while on submission.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
There's nothing to writing.
Speaker 5 (01:05):
All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support group about
book writing and publishing. I'm writer and podcaster Courtney Coosak,
and each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors,
agents and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Hi, my name is Chloe Caldwell. I'm the author of
the essay collection leg Skalet Astray, the novella Women, the
essay collection I'll Tell You In Person, and the memoir
The Red Zone and Bleeders.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
I am thrilled to tell you that Chloe has a
new book, Trying, a memoir. I have read an Advanced
reader copy. It is so freaking good. You need to
order your copy. And of course I have talked to
Chloe for a previous interview on this podcast which she
talked about becoming an author of her first four books
(02:12):
and how she did it the indie way, and it's
such a good episode, so I highly recommend you check
that out after you listen to this conversation. Okay, let's
get into it.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
So everyone should ken and should listen to your first
interview where we talked about what rebel indie writer you are.
I guess I don't know which of those ever went
on submission, but I saw your latest book, you know,
was like on Publishers Marketplace and like had an official thing,
(02:44):
so that must have gone out on submission. No, no,
it did not.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Know. All of my books were on Publisher's Marketplace except
for Legs, Get let Astray. Oh really yeah, yeah, even
the indies, you can still like the publisher can still
submit it to Publishers Marketplace. So like Women was announced there,
I'll Tell You in Person was announced there in the
Red Zone, and then my next one with Gray Wolf,
but that one did not go on submission. That went
(03:10):
directly to an editor. But I do have a good
story of my submission, Nightmare, and that is for my
book I'll Tell You in Person, which was published by
Coffeehouse in twenty sixteen. Yeah, when I look back on
this what happened during that submission, I still get anxiety.
(03:31):
It just it was not I do not have fond
memories of it. So I was working with an agent
at the time she's no longer an agent, and she
was really excited about me. She had read my book Women.
She wanted me to do another essay collection. I was
obsessed with essays. I was obviously totally down. I was excited,
(03:53):
so I wrote the essay collection that would evolve into
all it tellian person, but you know how it is.
The first draft was so thin, just so thin and terrible.
And I was a new writer. I mean I was
how old was I twenty seven or so? Twenty seven,
twenty eight? So I sent it to my agent. I'm like, oh,
(04:14):
do you think it's ready? And she's like almost, you know,
she was like overly sort of overly optimistic about me.
So did another draft, and I can't quite remember how
long I worked on this, let's say a year. It
still was not ready. I mean I knew in my
heart it wasn't ready, but she told me it was,
(04:35):
and so I thought, wow, maybe she sees something in
me that I don't see, Like maybe I'm a genius,
you know, like I was like, yeah, I was like,
holy holy shit. She thinks I'm just the best writer.
And okay, I think it's bad. But if she thinks
it's good, like she's she's the agent.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
So she brought it out to all the publishers, like
all the big publishers and the imprint and everybody, and
the rejections started to roll in, and some of them
were actually really helpful.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
I think I might have used some in class with you, actually,
because I got these amazing rejection letters that like went
through every essay and it was really like a like
a nice craft lesson on essay writing. So that was fine.
It was still sort of a bummer, especially because my
agent had said things like let's pop the champagne and
(05:30):
like you're gonna get six figures, like it was like
a girl's episode or something. So but the worst thing
that happened, Courtney was that there was an editor working
at Riverhead. And this editor was new and young, and
she was a huge fan of mine, and she wanted
to do a book with me so badly, and she
(05:52):
knew my work so well, and we sent her the
book and obviously, you know, I was so naive. I'm like,
this is amazing, Like Riverhead's gonna be. She wrote a
long rejection letter and it was the smartest rejection letter,
but like it was rough, you know, she called it
shallow and just said I was capable of so much more.
(06:13):
All of these things I agreed with, but I do
remember like crying in the shower, and it gets worse
from there. No, because my agent was like, well, do
a quick rewrite and let's like submit it to them again.
And I was like, really, like, she seemed pretty firm
(06:34):
on the no, Like, I think it would take me
longer than like three weeks. It would probably take me
like three years to get it where this editor wants
it to be right. And I also knew the book
I was writing. I do have a gift of like
knowing where my book sort of belongs. I knew this
wasn't a mainstream essay collection. It didn't have a hook,
(06:55):
it didn't have anything super catchy. I knew it was
sort of quirky. So I was thinking, like, why would
they publish this book? And not like in a self
deprecating way, I just I just knew. So she had
me do another draft to send a riverhead, which is
just already bad because then you're writing with Riverhead in
(07:16):
mind and you're just totally panicked. So I did that.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
I mean, was it just a cursory rewrite where you're
just kind of tweaking.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Well, it was based on her feedback the rejection letter,
and she, you know, she had said, like, send it
to me again if there's a massive rewrite or something.
I think, So we submitted it again and she rejected
it again. It was terrible, and I had to go
to an This is pre pandemic, so all of these
(07:43):
meetings were in person. I had to I was so
broke and I had to take the train down to
the city to sit with people to reject me to
my face. So I sat with this editor and she
rejected it again. We were in this bright room with
fluorescent lights, and I was like, thank you. And previous
to that, I had had another day where my agent
(08:04):
had set up meetings with me with everybody. So this
day was like a horrible day. I had meetings from
let's say, like nine am to five pm. I met
with Harper Collins and Penguin, Random House and Emily Butler
Books and like back to back to back. So it
started with like meeting an editor for a Green Juice
and her telling you why she couldn't do the book,
(08:26):
and then meeting someone for a coffee and them telling
you why they couldn't do the book, and meeting someone
for lunch. And I went to lunch with an editor
at Harper Perennial or Harper Collins, and I had my
manuscript in my backpack, and I'll never forget but we
sat outside this restaurant and he said, I think I've
talked about this class. He said, your manuscript is a
(08:47):
it's a Chevy when it could be a Cadillac. And
I was like okay, and I went to the bathroom
and I threw it in the carpet, being really dull.
I mean, it was just like a random print out.
Was it like meaningful? But I was like, fuck this.
I just felt like, like, you feel like shit going
(09:07):
to these meetings, especially like you're spending money like I
was broke for them. They're just going to like a
fun lunch for me.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
It seems inhumane to do like four of them in
a day.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I know. It kind of now reminds me of like
the whole meme of like this could have been an email,
like why am I now I have to sit through
lunch with you? It was really really bad. But that
same day I had a meeting with Coffee House, which
Emily Books, like Emily Gold had started Emily Books, and
(09:39):
Emily and I were hanging out a bit at the time,
and I told her what I was going through and
she said, why didn't your agent send it to us?
And I said, that's a really good question, and she's like,
can you send it to me. I'm like, I would
love to send it to you, like I love Coffee
House and I love Emily books. So that happened without
my agent, and I had to kind of convince my
agent like, I know they're an indeed, but they're really great.
(10:02):
I think this book might be good for them. So
she set up a meeting with them. So I went
to a meeting with Emily Gould and Caroline Casey, who
was a marketing person at Coffee House at the time,
and that meeting was incredible, and they were the ones
who were like supportive and giving me feedback on the
book and loved it and wanted to do the book.
So then it turned into conversations between my agent and
I where my agent still wanted me to do another
(10:25):
draft and send it again to all the big publishers,
and I know she wasn't my agent anymore after that.
I mean, and to her credit, I'm like, wow, she
had so much faith in me. But again, if it
were a different book, if it were a different essay
collection with different stories or something more marketable, I would
(10:47):
have done it. But I knew, I'm like, this is
like a quirky essay collection. This is a coffee House book.
And what was so sad about this, Courtney, is like
going with Coffeehouse should have been this amazing feeling, like
Coffeehouse is incredible, Yeah, with your friend as an editor, Like, yeah,
they were. They were treating me so well, like offering
(11:08):
me in advance. But what was so sad is that,
like it looked like a failure based on how I
was set up. Right, if I had sold it to
Coffee House on my own, it would have been like,
holy shit, I sold a book. But I had to
go through that. So because I had to have all
these conversations with my agent and sort of convince her
that even though it was less money, I wanted to
(11:30):
go with coffee House, which ultimately was one million percent
the right choice. Yeah. So that's that's the story of
I'll tell you in person. And this played out for
a few months like this was like you know, from
we probably submitted it. Oh, she submitted my book to
publishers on April Fool's Day, which I already thought was
(11:52):
like ada. And then I think by the time I
signed with them, it was like July or August, like
it was intense but I felt great about going with Coffeehouse,
and then also sort of sad that I had like
let my agent down and I was supposed to get
six figures and like all, you know, all of this
(12:14):
stuff she had been saying. But I also knew who
I was, and I trusted that that was where the
book belonged, and that was like that book sold really
well for me. I had an amazing experience. It was
how it was supposed to be.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
And those meetings I went on, I'm sure were I
don't know if they were good experiences, but they're they're
own essay for they're a story.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah. Yeah, So that's what happened.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
So I'm kind of surprised, Like if I were an
professional editor and knowing your work before, if I were
the girl at Riverhead, I would.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
Want to like help you shape the book into what
I saw as its potential.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
So I guess that's just like the confusing part as
a writer.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So here's what it is. She wanted that so bad,
and I think we would have worked so well together,
but that one person has to convince an into higher
room of people, yes, and that's where it's hard, especially
if that person's new at their job. So for her,
she had just started there. She was younger than I was, like,
(13:18):
so she didn't really she didn't have the sway or
the poll, or even if they do have the sway
in the poll, they could go into that meeting and
if you know, six out of ten people are like, no,
this isn't going to work for our team. It's a no.
So that's where I think things are hard, because sometimes
I do think the editor wants to acquire the book,
but if they can't get the whole team behind it,
(13:41):
they can't, and so it's sort of a flawed system.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
So then Red Zone was next, And did that just
go to soft school right away? Or did that ever
go out?
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Like that didn't go out either. I was with a
different agent at that time. I really wanted it to
go out really really badly. I didn't have a book proposal.
I just had a draft of the book. It's like
so unique, like of a past. I I think if
I had had the right agent who knew how to
(14:19):
market that book or think about that book, talk about
that book, pitch that book, something could have happened with it.
But that wasn't the experience I had. I had the
opposite so I was with a different agent by then,
and that agent sort of ghosted me and then finally admitted, like,
I don't have a.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Vision for this book, and I was like, now you
tell me.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
So I was really disappointed. This was like a big
agent who represents all of these writers you and I
both love. So I thought that that was like my ticket.
It's never whatever you think it's your ticket, it's not.
So so that didn't go out, and that was that
was disappointing. But also again went with an indie I
(15:03):
had had a relationship or I knew who Yuka Igorash
she was because she was an editor of my friend's
book and my friend Chelsea Martin's book who's been on
this podcast, and I thought Uka might see something in
the material because Chelsea's book was so weird and this
book was weird. So I could sort of emailed her like, hey,
(15:24):
remember me, I have this book. I was wondering if
you're interested, And what I will say is you could
did end up buying it, and Uka ended up also
buying my book for gray Wolf, where she is now.
But even that process with a known editor, even with
this latest gray Wolf book, I think I reached out
to Yuka like July of twenty twenty two, and it
(15:46):
was almost a year later that she felt comfortable bringing
it to her team. What mm hmm. We had conversations,
we had emails, We went back and forth, like getting
the manuscript more in shape, Like she wasn't just like, yeah,
I want to do a book with you, let me
pitch it to my team. And that's with someone that's
with my second book with her, So even that isn't
(16:08):
like a shoe in and even that she still has
to present it to her team, and her team could
still say no. So yeah, it's hard out there. What
happened recently really quickly because you'll think this is interesting
because I think you reviewed this book or we connected
over my book Women just now I'm on my third
agent who is epic, and she took the rights Women
(16:32):
has been out of print, so the rights reverted back
to me. So she took the rights of that out
to the big publishers and it was a more straightforward
submission process where I got meetings with a bunch of
interested places and publishers, and the publishers made offers and
I ended up going with Harper Perennial, which is funny
(16:55):
because that's the same bad meeting I had.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yank you.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
It's going to be out during Pride of June twenty
twenty four. Yeah, it's really exciting. It's going to have
a new forward. But I finally got to have the
experience and I didn't have to go down the city
and like get rejected for once. Like I got to
just sit on zoom and they all told me why
they wanted the book, and I'm like, wow, this is
the opposite experience of all of my like the past
(17:21):
ten years. That is like that felt good. Yeah, it
actually was the most I went out to dinner with
my mom. I was like, that was the most ideal
situation I've ever had in the writing industry ever, and
they are far and few between, so you take what
you can get. But yeah, that felt like some good
karma after like all of the all of the shit.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
So what's your advice to me and all the other
struggling writers on submission, either like technical advice like don't
send your age in a crazy list or whatever, or
like anxiety advice. Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I think doing this is so because you have a
place to talk to other people, so you're not as
isolated as I feel like I was back in twenty sixteen,
just driving friends crazy on the phone. This is actually genius.
I think distractions are huge.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I know that some writers do the whole work on
another project thing. I find that so hard. I find
that so hard. And I think accepting that whatever idea
you have in your head, it is probably going to
go in the craziest past and directions that you couldn't
even imagine, and it's fun, Like that's actually part of
the fun is like, Okay, I have no idea what's
going to happen. So I really don't have that much
(18:38):
advice for you because it's so hard. But yeah, talking
to other writers to keep you saying, distract yourself in
any healthy wace that you can go back for more,
go back for more rejections like I did. I don't
think anyone should do what I did of like, yeah,
I'll revise it again.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
Did it?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Sitting there? It was so like Hannah horror At It's like,
who do you think you are? You think Riverhead is
just going to give you the six figure deal because
you like you like change the opening of an essay.
You fucking moron. It's just I wish I had a
video camera to like see those dates, see me at
those meetings.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
I'd just dude, if I would have published Women, I
would have been like, yeah, the next thing's gonna be.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I guess. I just I just this book was not
It was not it like the only time. Now I'm
happy with how the book came, but that's after I
sold it, like to coffee house, like they helped me
make it good, but it was not good. So yeah.
And also like being prepared to go on when you
go on your meetings, to be prepared, that's another thing.
I never I would just show up and be like, hey,
what's going on? Like I didn't know what to ask.
(19:41):
I didn't know.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Anything, So what's being prepared?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Like researching them or yeah, researching them, thinking in advance
what questions you have for them, instead of making it
like I don't know.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
For me, I would just kind of wing it, or
I'd get off a meeting and be like, oh, I should.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Have asked this, So writing down questions in advance, knowing
who they are, knowing their names, like knowing who's going
to be there. One time I went to a meeting,
I thought was just the editor and then the entire
team was there. So just being somewhat prepped and remembering
you don't just have to wow them, like you also
need to like them. They have to wow you a
(20:17):
little bit too, so you're allowed to also have questions
like taking some of the power back, you.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Know, yes, I love Yeah, that's a good place.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Instead of instead of like showing up desperate of like
please anything.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, that's how I feel that, I know, I know.
Any final submission thoughts or maybe cover it.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
That's it. Just be persistent, like keep doing it, doing it,
doing it like it's not going to get anywhere if
you give up after a few submissions, Like it's really
not for the faint of heart.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
Thanks for joining me for this episode of The Bleeders.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Writing is so much better with friends.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
I'm your host, Courtney Cosack, and hey, let's connect on
social media. I am at Courtney Kosak last name Iscak.
I am on Twitter, I am on Instagram, I am
on Blue Sky, I am on TikTok, I'm everywhere, baby,
And of course, make sure you get Chloe's book, Trying
a Memoir. It is out August fifth, which is basically
(21:15):
one day after this is published, so you can order
your copy and you will get at asap, and I
can a test. I've already read it. It is so
so good you're gonna gobble it right up, probably in
one night. So make sure you order that, and make
sure you're signed up for the Bleeder's Companion substack for
all kinds of newsletter exclusives. I have a link for
(21:37):
that in the episode description. I have a paid.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Subscription for The Bleeders.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
Where I take you behind the scenes of all my
best buylines. I'm taking you behind the scenes of my
debut memoir, Girl Gone Wild, which will be out with
Trio House Press in March of twenty twenty six, and
I've written about my return to stand up comedy, how
I got ready to crush my showcase, and whether or
not I think it is worth it. I also have
(22:03):
a few mini workshops behind the paywall, so again there
is a link for the substack in the episode description.
I hope you join me over there, and I hope
you join me again here next week for another inspiring episode.
In the meantime, Happy Bleeding
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