May 26, 2025 • 26 mins
Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcome
Today's guest is Greg Mania, author of the memoir Born to Be Public. In this episode, Greg shares his winding path to publication—from losing an agent, to finding the right publisher with the indie press Clash Books, to signing with a new agent, and what he’s learned through the highs and lows of going on submission multiple times. He offers practical advice for staying sane during the process, building a creative support system, and the marketing strategies that helped make his debut a success. Follow Greg on Instagram @gregmania.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
Today's guest is Greg Mania, author of the memoir Born to Be Public. In this episode, Greg shares his winding path to publication—from losing an agent, to finding the right publisher with the indie press Clash Books, to signing with a new agent, and what he’s learned through the highs and lows of going on submission multiple times. He offers practical advice for staying sane during the process, building a creative support system, and the marketing strategies that helped make his debut a success. Follow Greg on Instagram @gregmania.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
- How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminar
- Creating Your Podcast: https://www.roadmapwriters.com/products/creating-your-podcast-0
- Podcasting for Writers: How to Start, Sustain & Grow Your Podcast: https://writingworkshops.com/products/podcasting-for-writers-how-to-start-sustain-grow-your-podcast-4-week-zoom-workshop
- Start a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminar
- Land Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminar
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
There's nothing to writing.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
All you do is sit down at a typewriter.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
And bleed. Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support
group about book writing and publishing.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm writer and podcaster Courtney Coosak.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
And each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors, agents,
and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello leaders, Great news.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
My debut memoir has finally found its perfect publisher. Girl
Gone Wild, that is the name of the memoir, is
coming out with Trio House Press in March twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I am so freaking excited.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
The publisher's marketplace announcement came out this week.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I was like, ah.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Also, Trio House Press is based in my home state
of Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I love the editor.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
She's in Minnesota, Gal. It all feels very kismet.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
And hitting this milestone reminded me that I have a
series in the can called What to Expect when You're
On Submission that I have just been sitting on and
I have not really started publishing yet, And if I'm
being honest, I think I press pause on it because
first of all, I had lots of other stuff to publish,
(01:27):
and I was going through the submission process for the
first time with another project, a narrative nonfiction book that
still has not found its home but hopefully does soon
fingers crossed. And I think it was just like too
much of a bummer to finish the interviews.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I did a bunch of interviews.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I had a few more that I wanted to do
for the series, and it just was too depressing.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So I was like, I'm just gonna wait.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I'm gonna wait on this until I am more mentally
able to put it out there. And that is now.
I guess the lesson is like it's gonna happen. I
know it feels like it takes forever going on.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Some mission sucks.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
That's why I came up with this series and I'm
bringing you these interviews. But ultimately, if you're working really
hard on your art and you are pouring your heart
and soul into a project you really believe in, I
believe that you will ultimately have success.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
But it might take a while.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
And so that is why I'm bringing you this series.
It's a tough process, and so I am bringing you
a little hope through other people's stories. And today we're
going to start off with Greg Mania. He's sharing his
experience of finding a good home for his first book,
Born to Be Public.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It landed at a very cool small.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Press, Clash Books. I've got my eye on you, Clash.
I love what they're doing. And in this interview, Greg
also spills how found his agent, what it was like
to go on submission a second time, and he offers
advice for authors going through this hillacious process.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
There's no other word for it. I'm sure there is,
but that's the best one.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
So I will be bringing you more of these interviews.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I'm going to publish these every other week.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I'm going to alternate them with regular interviews, and I'm
going to do that for the next couple months, and
then I'm going to add some more.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I'm going to do some fresh ones for you, So
stay tuned for that and let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
My name is Greg Manya. I'm the author of the
memoir Born to Be Public, which is out now through
Clash Books, and I write the newsletter SOS Save Our
Serotonin on substack.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yay, Well, I'm taking Chloe's one year Generator and you
came to talk to our class, so I got to
know you through that, and then I also read your
substack about being on a mission, so I was like, oh,
I have to talk to Greg about this hillacious process.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Yes, that's the perfect word to describe this.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So yeah, tell me about Yeah, I mean, your first
book is out, tell me about the process with that one,
and then we can talk about your latest experience.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Absolutely, so. I mean the whole entire publication process is
anything but linear, so it's common to experience some bumps
in the road, some more than others. I have heard
myriad stories of things that have gone bump in the
submission stack. Let's go with that. So I had an
(04:42):
interesting trajectory with my first book. It's not always as streamlined.
You know, you get an agent, you know, I'm not
like David Adaris. I can't just like cough up a
book idea on a napkin and just like send that
to my agent and just like sells a six figure
book deal. I mean, that's that's what I'm working words.
But you know, as someone that is still cutting their
(05:04):
teeth in this industry, yeah, selling my first book was
an interesting ride. I didn't know anything about the entire
publication process prior to submitting, so all I knew was
I had an idea for a book, and I just
started writing a first draft. And while I was writing
that first draft, I was sort of concurrently learning about
(05:25):
how to get an agent, What is a query letter,
how do you find an agent? What is a book proposal.
I didn't even know that I had, you know, my
first book was you know, nonfiction, and I didn't know
that most books are sold on proposal. So I had
to learn how to write a proposal. So that whole
process took a few years, and you know, I started
(05:47):
queering agents and eventually I signed with an agent, and
then we spent about a year editing the proposal and
the manuscript. She was very hands on editorial. And then
we went out on submission, submitted to ten houses, and
then my previous agent got another job offer, but it
(06:08):
was in publicity, so they pivoted and sort of just
took that new job. And I didn't have an agent,
and I was already on submission, and unfortunately, you know,
I was just sent a list of the houses where
that proposal was at. And yeah, it was definitely stressful. Obviously,
there's like no bad lunything, like I'm very happy for
(06:31):
my previous agent they are killing it in their position
and are doing great things. Agenting just really wasn't for them.
So yeah, I panicked. I started calling up my writer
friends and I was like, what do I do? Like,
I'm on submission, I don't have an agent anymore, So
I had to just start from the beginning. So thankfully,
by that point, I spent a few years cultivating relationships
(06:55):
and meeting writers and coming like an active literary citizen.
And with that I was able to form these really
meaningful friendships and relationships. And thankfully the community came and
got my ass and was like, Okay, reach out to
my agent, reach out to this. So I had a
good pool of agents where I started reaching out to.
But I was like, you know what, I don't want
(07:16):
to prolong this process. So I also took a two
pronged approach. Where I was reaching out to agents, I
was also reading like the Poets and Writers Database of
like small presses that were accepting unsolicited submissions. So I
was coming through making a list there's other small to
medium sized presses I do like open submission periods. So
I had like multiple sheets of like agents submission periods,
(07:40):
small presses. And I was also going to bookstores and
reading their small press titles and seeing what, you know,
what comps there are, And eventually I came upon a
book by Clash Books at the Strand and I was like,
oh this. You know, their voices are very zany and brazen,
and they're doing really cool boundary pushing stuff. So I
ended up sending them, you know, a query letter, and
(08:02):
I sent them a draft and they bought the book.
So I sold my first book myself and it worked
out perfectly actually, and now in hindsight, I wouldn't have
done it any other way because we were both sort
of starting out at the time. Obviously they were more
established than I was, but we really grew together as
(08:23):
press and author and through my time working with them.
By the time the paperback came out, we had a
distribution deal, and so the paperback and the audio book
were put under like the National I don't know how,
I'm an idiot, but it was under distribution, so I
was able. I got I had got in at the
right die. So like, by the way, I don't know
(08:44):
what that accent was, I just like had thirteen different accents.
So let's just we're just gonna acknowledge it and move on.
That was like a hybrid of like a New Jersey,
maybe also Caribbean and maybe British. That was a very
odd twist. Okay anyway, but let's the so.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Distribution, what is that?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
So like?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
It went out more widely than Clash's initial distribution channels afforded.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
So basically what happened was Clash was on a print
on demand model through Ingram. So my book, the hardcover
basically you could order it anywhere, but it wasn't like
they printed ten thousand copies. And then it was basically
if a bookstore or library whoever wanted it, they would print.
Like Okay, let's say books are Magic, wants ten copies,
(09:31):
they print ten, send it to them. And during that time,
I was really become very self taught in publicity literacy.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Which you've been crushing it. I feel like you got
to give us some tips.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Thank you. Yeah. And I knew, I mean for me,
I knew that, Okay, as a debut author, especially in
the nonfiction space, I have to have a strong debut
because that's gonna dictate how easy it is. This on
my second third and you know, subsequent books. So for years,
early on, I started saving up money because I didn't
know where would end up. I didn't know if I
(10:06):
would have in house marketing, so I would start taking
pieces of my paycheck and putting in my savings. Ause
I knew when the time came, I wanted to hire
a freelance publicist. So by the time I published with
Clash between Myself and Clash, and my publicist, Justin Hargett,
who is brilliant used to be at Soho so Ho Press.
I believe, just a great guy to work with. So
(10:28):
by that time we were really able to like posture
and be like, you know what, this is a small
press book, but we're going to act like this is
a big five lead title. There's a certain level of
delusion that I operate in. And because we did that,
you know, this small press book ended up in Oprah
magazine and NPR and all these lists, because you know,
(10:50):
we took the time to really nurture it. And the
duration between selling a book and publishing it it can
be you know, a year or two depending on when
it's slated to So we took those few years. While
I was editing and going draft after draft, I was
also you know, we were putting out like, uh, like,
what's it called like the merch for books? Like, what's
(11:11):
that called gag gifts? I'm a professional wordsmith and I
need guidance here the slash swag, Yes, like we were
doing swag. I was like, let's make matches, let's make lighters,
let's do let's do cool shit. And then I, you know,
I started using the relationships that I cultivated with the
multiple websites that I freelance for, and we were able
(11:35):
to have a really successful marketing campaign and it was
really fun. And yes, I debut during a pandemic, and
of course I would love to have a book tour,
but it worked out for the best for me because
I was able to bring fronts like Lindy West did
my LA event, and we were able to do it
over Zoom, like able to do with not just a friend,
but someone that's like a literary hero of mine on
(11:55):
my own book tour. That was sort of a blessing
because I don't know if she would be able to
come in to LA on like an actual in person
book tour. So yeah, that first year, because of the
hardcover and because of two other titles, Jackie S's Daryl
Blew up with Clash and Tia hasiks Vlahovich and I'm
sorry if I butchered her name Life of the Party.
(12:17):
These three titles, they performed so well that Clash was
able to sign a distribution deal, and then all of
our books sort of fell under the umbrella of this
national distribution. So when the paperback came out a year later,
it was a bit easier to get it because then
bookstores it was just easier to distribute it. So it
was definitely a wild ride. But I would have done
(12:38):
it all over again if I had to.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
That is amazing.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
So Okay, you have this small press book that you
make the most of and it winds up being fantastic,
And how does that inform now your next moves? And like,
did you get an agent after that process? And then
you know what's going on now?
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Sure? Yeah, I was able to get an agent. I
am represented by the wonderful, magnanimous Alexa Stark over at
Writer's House. I actually have had my eye on her
my entire career. Thought. I remember submitting like a very
early like a query for Born Me Public, like I
don't know first or second draft. It was not ready
for anything, And I never I sent there was like
(13:22):
a query through her former agency's website, and never heard back,
and I'm like, that is totally fine. It was not
ready for anything. But I did eventually sign with her,
I think about a year and a half ago, because
I have a new book that is on submission now,
and I sent her the proposal and we had a
phone call and the rest was history. And it's been
(13:46):
a dream working with her, and it's really good to
have like a partner like that in my corner.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So, I mean, you knew more going into this next book.
So did you feel like your proposal was like more
ready this time? And did she work with you on
notes on that? How did that go down?
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Yeah? What I love most about I mean, I love
many things about Alexo, but she's also very hands on editorially,
which as an author, I prefer that. You know, a
lot of authors have their own different styles, their own
methods of working with their editors and agents. I really
like someone that's able to not just be familiar with
my voice, like Alexo will be like, Okay, you're putting
(14:31):
too much humor here, because I think you're trying to
shy away from the painful stuff and I'm like, you're right,
I am overcompensating. I needed someone to tell me to
pull back on the jokes here a bit. So I
really love that aspect of that. But yeah, I had
a proposal like a draft complete by the time I
reached out to her, and we have gone back and
forth and you've gone, you know, through many drafts of it.
(14:54):
But we're at a place now where I think it's
pretty solid, and yeah, we are going to to hit
the ground running. I think this fall and we'll see
where it goes. But it has been again, it's gone
through many iterations, so I've gone on submission I think
like two I'm gonna say two separate times, because it
was a completely different book project a year ago. Then
(15:16):
it is now.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Okay, so this is I'm currently on. I mean, part
of the reason I'm doing this series is to like
for myself, I am on submission. It's driving me fucking
crazy because it's my first time and I just don't
really know what to expect. So it's been now a
few months, like it's been this summer. But I hear
(15:37):
stories about people where it takes them fifteen months or
like whatever, So like, is this normal? Especially now, is
it okay If it takes a while, it.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
Is absolutely normal, It's absolutely okay. That doesn't make it
any less anxiety inducing. But I will say because I'm
also you know, we're in the trenches together in the
submission process. I do know and some author friends who
are on sub mission that this season has been especially slow.
I'd there has been a lot of shifts, a lot
of changes, a lot of let's go with unpredictability in
(16:11):
our industry right now, and I think that's sort of
bleeding into what editors are buying and how much they
can buy. You know, I'm sure there's projects that they
would love to buy, but you know, structural changes abound
may put curtail that that opportunity. So I do know
specifically now, I want to say that it has been quiet,
(16:35):
but I also think it's not any different than it
usually is. Because it could take you fifteen months, it
could take you a few weeks. But I think right
now especially, it has been a bit longer. And this
is not just me posturing. I was I remember in
maybe June or May, I was like, it's been a
few weeks, Like is this normal? And like I talked
(16:55):
to some other author friends and they were like, yeah,
we're also waiting too, And the author friends of mine,
they're smarter and more brilliant than me, so if they
can get their books sold, like, what the fuck am
I going to do? So it's just for everyone. And
I talked to a few agents and they're like, yeah,
it's just been really quiet. And it's not because the projects.
You know, the projects are gold. It's just it's just
(17:16):
a slow time right now. I think it's just a
lot of factors, a lot of shifts and changes. So
I think we just have to be patient and more important,
lean on each other during this time because it is anxiety.
It is stressful. I'm texting, you know, we have group
texts going on. I'm like, you know, I have friends
checking on me, be like hey, did you repot your plants?
Because you know you're going to go bonkers sitting there
(17:37):
waiting for an email to come in. So it's definitely
been tough. So I think we need to just, you know,
lean on each other a bit because it is stressful.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
So like with Born to Be Public, I know you
were doing it in different like working on different channels
with that, but like, how long did that take until
you were able to place it.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
I want to say, I'm just remembering my age. I
remember I was twenty nine when I got published. I remember.
I don't know why I can't remember. I don't I
have no idea. I barely remember what he is now.
I can just remember how old I was. I think
I was twenty five by the time I was ready
to get it ready to have other eyes on it.
It got published when I was twenty nine, so that's
(18:18):
what four years, so I want to see like four years,
but that also includes getting an agent, not having an agent,
queering and selling it myself, and then two years between
selling the book and getting it ready for publication, so
it wasn't necessarily just selling the book and putting it out.
I want to say the whole process took about maybe
(18:40):
four or five years.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Uh. And then the part where you were like querying
and finding this small pre you know, finding clash, what
was that like a year of it.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Or that process was luckily a little shorter. I think
I queried agents for maybe about a year until I
signed with my first one, and then we spent oh,
so here we go. Now, I'm sorry to remember I
spent about a year queering until I signed with my
first agent, and then we spent about a year working
on the manuscript, working on the proposal before it went out.
And then I want to say, it didn't take that
(19:13):
long after my agent accepted another job position and then
I sold it myself. It only took a few months. Yeah,
so that was actually part of the shortest part of
the process, because I really was like, I'm going to
do this myself, with or without an agent, and I'm
very stubborn, and once I have my mindset on something,
I just hit the ground running. And I think, I
want to say, I remember it was you ready for this?
(19:37):
I remember I got the acceptance. It was cold, it
was March. I remember going to Applebee's with my mom
and it was freezing. We got home and I remember
coming home from Applebee's to my parents' house in Jersey
and like immediately having to use the bathroom, and I
remember getting the email on the toilet, and I was like, oh,
(19:58):
this is an appropriate time, get an acceptance.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Amazing post Applebee's toilet run.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Yeah yeah, post Applebee's gastro intestinal nine to one one.
And then I get my book deal, So very appropriate. Yeah,
So I want to say it was a few months.
I think it took me like most of the fall too. Yeah,
I want to say it took all Fall to like
submit to these presses. And I got that clash acceptance
(20:26):
in February, so in the winter, so a few months.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
So I mean, what would your advice be, whether it's
practical advice, things that you learned, you know, do this,
don't do this, as far as like etiquette or just
mental health stuff. What would be your advice to people
about going on submission?
Speaker 4 (20:46):
So I think for anyone, I will say this for
people who are on going on submission for the first time,
especially I really I don't say made myself sick, but
I really like neglected my health emotionally and physically, just
because I was focused on selling this book twenty four
to seven, seven days a week, Like this is my baby.
(21:09):
And it's almost like you're sending your kid to college, right,
you want to spend your time, you know, raising them.
But by the time they're eighteen and they not just
go to call whatever they do when they turn eighteen,
when they're adults, like you want them to go off
and spread their wings. So I was like, I need
to nurture this project now, so when it's ready, you know,
it can fly out like a bat out of hell,
which is more my speed. But I will say for
(21:30):
first time some you know, the first your first book,
just know that these things take time. And my best
advice is to yes, it's great to care and you're
gonna you're gonna be checking. I know you're gonna be
checking your email. I can tell you a thousand times
to like try, but I will say, just try to
be mindful of how often you are devoting time and energy.
(21:53):
Because you've already devoted so much time and energy into
your work and the most important part, which is the
writing the process. So when that's out on submission, whether
it's a novel or nonfiction, whatever it is, I say,
just try to spend time doing things that give you joy.
And it can be something stupid like rewatching old episodes
(22:14):
of Lost. It can be repotting your plants like I
have to do. It can be calling your friends. But
more importantly, I think if you have another project that's
tugging at you, you should follow it. The way that
I was able to sort of deal with this this
part of my second time around, I started writing another
book proposal, and I just had this idea and I
(22:37):
had a lot of fun writing this proposal, and that
was a way for me to like stay rejuvenated. But
also know that even if you don't have an idea
of what you want to do next, that's okay too.
It's okay to just sort of go and just you know,
it's always going to come back to you. But try
to just I know this is corny, but try to
just live your life and just realize, yes, give space
(23:00):
to all the emotions that you're going to feel when
you're on submission, but at the same time lead into
things that you know that are going to give you
some joy. Take a walk, grab a drink with a friend,
take up smoking again. Yes, Mike, I say that. I'm kidding.
Don't do that. That's a horrible advice. I would never
(23:22):
be serious about that.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
That's so good.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
Yeah you do. If I just put a huge cigarette,
like like one of those like long legg courella deville,
I had it the whole time.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Amazing.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Is there anything else you want to share with listeners
before we wrap?
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me.
I think this is so important because writing is a
very solitary activity, and the submission process is even more
anxiety inducing. And you know, if you have a good agent,
your agent's going to be you know, serve your confident
on there for you. But the most important advice I
can give you just lean on your friends during this time,
(24:02):
especially your writer friends. Whether this is their fourth book,
we all get anxious. I know writer friends of mine
who are famous who are so anxious about their fourth
or fifth books. And just know that it's normal. Feel
this way. Lean on your friends, take your mind off it.
Like the best things that I've done was just like
calling another friend who's on submission. We just hopped on
(24:22):
FaceTime and we just like gabbed about nothing for two hours.
And that was enough for me to like reset my
mind because it took me out of that spiral. So
it could be something as simple as that. But just
lean on your friends, lean on your loved ones, know
that this is normal, and keep writing. Number one, keep writing.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Yes, well, thank you so much, Thank you, Greg, and
thank you for joining me.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
For this episode of The Bleeders. Oh, writing is so
much better with friends.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I'm your host, Courtney Kosak, and hey, let's connect on
social media. I am at Courtney Kosak, last name is Kocak.
I'm on I'm on Instagram, I'm on Blue Sky, I'm
on TikTok, I'm everywhere. And make sure you're signed up
for the Bleeder's Companion substack for all kinds of newsletter exclusives.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I send out one awesome newsletter.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Every week for free subscribers.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
There is a link in the episode description for.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
That, and I've also launched a paid subscription where I
take you behind the scenes of all my best buylines.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I tell you how to pitch those places.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I've written about my return to stand up comedy and
how I got ready to crush my showcase. I have
written about my MFA and whether or not I think
it is worth it.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
I also have some mini workshops behind the paywall.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
So, like I said, there is a link for the
newsletter in the episode description. I hope you joined me
over there, and I hope you join me back here
next week for another all new episode.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
In the meantime, Happy Bleeding
There's nothing to writing.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
All you do is sit down at a typewriter.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
And bleed. Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support
group about book writing and publishing.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm writer and podcaster Courtney Coosak.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
And each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors, agents,
and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello leaders, Great news.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
My debut memoir has finally found its perfect publisher. Girl
Gone Wild, that is the name of the memoir, is
coming out with Trio House Press in March twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I am so freaking excited.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
The publisher's marketplace announcement came out this week.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I was like, ah.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Also, Trio House Press is based in my home state
of Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I love the editor.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
She's in Minnesota, Gal. It all feels very kismet.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
And hitting this milestone reminded me that I have a
series in the can called What to Expect when You're
On Submission that I have just been sitting on and
I have not really started publishing yet, And if I'm
being honest, I think I press pause on it because
first of all, I had lots of other stuff to publish,
(01:27):
and I was going through the submission process for the
first time with another project, a narrative nonfiction book that
still has not found its home but hopefully does soon
fingers crossed. And I think it was just like too
much of a bummer to finish the interviews.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I did a bunch of interviews.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I had a few more that I wanted to do
for the series, and it just was too depressing.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So I was like, I'm just gonna wait.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I'm gonna wait on this until I am more mentally
able to put it out there. And that is now.
I guess the lesson is like it's gonna happen. I
know it feels like it takes forever going on.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Some mission sucks.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
That's why I came up with this series and I'm
bringing you these interviews. But ultimately, if you're working really
hard on your art and you are pouring your heart
and soul into a project you really believe in, I
believe that you will ultimately have success.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
But it might take a while.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
And so that is why I'm bringing you this series.
It's a tough process, and so I am bringing you
a little hope through other people's stories. And today we're
going to start off with Greg Mania. He's sharing his
experience of finding a good home for his first book,
Born to Be Public.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It landed at a very cool small.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Press, Clash Books. I've got my eye on you, Clash.
I love what they're doing. And in this interview, Greg
also spills how found his agent, what it was like
to go on submission a second time, and he offers
advice for authors going through this hillacious process.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
There's no other word for it. I'm sure there is,
but that's the best one.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
So I will be bringing you more of these interviews.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I'm going to publish these every other week.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I'm going to alternate them with regular interviews, and I'm
going to do that for the next couple months, and
then I'm going to add some more.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I'm going to do some fresh ones for you, So
stay tuned for that and let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
My name is Greg Manya. I'm the author of the
memoir Born to Be Public, which is out now through
Clash Books, and I write the newsletter SOS Save Our
Serotonin on substack.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yay, Well, I'm taking Chloe's one year Generator and you
came to talk to our class, so I got to
know you through that, and then I also read your
substack about being on a mission, so I was like, oh,
I have to talk to Greg about this hillacious process.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Yes, that's the perfect word to describe this.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So yeah, tell me about Yeah, I mean, your first
book is out, tell me about the process with that one,
and then we can talk about your latest experience.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Absolutely, so. I mean the whole entire publication process is
anything but linear, so it's common to experience some bumps
in the road, some more than others. I have heard
myriad stories of things that have gone bump in the
submission stack. Let's go with that. So I had an
(04:42):
interesting trajectory with my first book. It's not always as streamlined.
You know, you get an agent, you know, I'm not
like David Adaris. I can't just like cough up a
book idea on a napkin and just like send that
to my agent and just like sells a six figure
book deal. I mean, that's that's what I'm working words.
But you know, as someone that is still cutting their
(05:04):
teeth in this industry, yeah, selling my first book was
an interesting ride. I didn't know anything about the entire
publication process prior to submitting, so all I knew was
I had an idea for a book, and I just
started writing a first draft. And while I was writing
that first draft, I was sort of concurrently learning about
(05:25):
how to get an agent, What is a query letter,
how do you find an agent? What is a book proposal.
I didn't even know that I had, you know, my
first book was you know, nonfiction, and I didn't know
that most books are sold on proposal. So I had
to learn how to write a proposal. So that whole
process took a few years, and you know, I started
(05:47):
queering agents and eventually I signed with an agent, and
then we spent about a year editing the proposal and
the manuscript. She was very hands on editorial. And then
we went out on submission, submitted to ten houses, and
then my previous agent got another job offer, but it
(06:08):
was in publicity, so they pivoted and sort of just
took that new job. And I didn't have an agent,
and I was already on submission, and unfortunately, you know,
I was just sent a list of the houses where
that proposal was at. And yeah, it was definitely stressful. Obviously,
there's like no bad lunything, like I'm very happy for
(06:31):
my previous agent they are killing it in their position
and are doing great things. Agenting just really wasn't for them.
So yeah, I panicked. I started calling up my writer
friends and I was like, what do I do? Like,
I'm on submission, I don't have an agent anymore, So
I had to just start from the beginning. So thankfully,
by that point, I spent a few years cultivating relationships
(06:55):
and meeting writers and coming like an active literary citizen.
And with that I was able to form these really
meaningful friendships and relationships. And thankfully the community came and
got my ass and was like, Okay, reach out to
my agent, reach out to this. So I had a
good pool of agents where I started reaching out to.
But I was like, you know what, I don't want
(07:16):
to prolong this process. So I also took a two
pronged approach. Where I was reaching out to agents, I
was also reading like the Poets and Writers Database of
like small presses that were accepting unsolicited submissions. So I
was coming through making a list there's other small to
medium sized presses I do like open submission periods. So
I had like multiple sheets of like agents submission periods,
(07:40):
small presses. And I was also going to bookstores and
reading their small press titles and seeing what, you know,
what comps there are, And eventually I came upon a
book by Clash Books at the Strand and I was like,
oh this. You know, their voices are very zany and brazen,
and they're doing really cool boundary pushing stuff. So I
ended up sending them, you know, a query letter, and
(08:02):
I sent them a draft and they bought the book.
So I sold my first book myself and it worked
out perfectly actually, and now in hindsight, I wouldn't have
done it any other way because we were both sort
of starting out at the time. Obviously they were more
established than I was, but we really grew together as
(08:23):
press and author and through my time working with them.
By the time the paperback came out, we had a
distribution deal, and so the paperback and the audio book
were put under like the National I don't know how,
I'm an idiot, but it was under distribution, so I
was able. I got I had got in at the
right die. So like, by the way, I don't know
(08:44):
what that accent was, I just like had thirteen different accents.
So let's just we're just gonna acknowledge it and move on.
That was like a hybrid of like a New Jersey,
maybe also Caribbean and maybe British. That was a very
odd twist. Okay anyway, but let's the so.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Distribution, what is that?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
So like?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
It went out more widely than Clash's initial distribution channels afforded.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
So basically what happened was Clash was on a print
on demand model through Ingram. So my book, the hardcover
basically you could order it anywhere, but it wasn't like
they printed ten thousand copies. And then it was basically
if a bookstore or library whoever wanted it, they would print.
Like Okay, let's say books are Magic, wants ten copies,
(09:31):
they print ten, send it to them. And during that time,
I was really become very self taught in publicity literacy.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Which you've been crushing it. I feel like you got
to give us some tips.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Thank you. Yeah. And I knew, I mean for me,
I knew that, Okay, as a debut author, especially in
the nonfiction space, I have to have a strong debut
because that's gonna dictate how easy it is. This on
my second third and you know, subsequent books. So for years,
early on, I started saving up money because I didn't
know where would end up. I didn't know if I
(10:06):
would have in house marketing, so I would start taking
pieces of my paycheck and putting in my savings. Ause
I knew when the time came, I wanted to hire
a freelance publicist. So by the time I published with
Clash between Myself and Clash, and my publicist, Justin Hargett,
who is brilliant used to be at Soho so Ho Press.
I believe, just a great guy to work with. So
(10:28):
by that time we were really able to like posture
and be like, you know what, this is a small
press book, but we're going to act like this is
a big five lead title. There's a certain level of
delusion that I operate in. And because we did that,
you know, this small press book ended up in Oprah
magazine and NPR and all these lists, because you know,
(10:50):
we took the time to really nurture it. And the
duration between selling a book and publishing it it can
be you know, a year or two depending on when
it's slated to So we took those few years. While
I was editing and going draft after draft, I was
also you know, we were putting out like, uh, like,
what's it called like the merch for books? Like, what's
(11:11):
that called gag gifts? I'm a professional wordsmith and I
need guidance here the slash swag, Yes, like we were
doing swag. I was like, let's make matches, let's make lighters,
let's do let's do cool shit. And then I, you know,
I started using the relationships that I cultivated with the
multiple websites that I freelance for, and we were able
(11:35):
to have a really successful marketing campaign and it was
really fun. And yes, I debut during a pandemic, and
of course I would love to have a book tour,
but it worked out for the best for me because
I was able to bring fronts like Lindy West did
my LA event, and we were able to do it
over Zoom, like able to do with not just a friend,
but someone that's like a literary hero of mine on
(11:55):
my own book tour. That was sort of a blessing
because I don't know if she would be able to
come in to LA on like an actual in person
book tour. So yeah, that first year, because of the
hardcover and because of two other titles, Jackie S's Daryl
Blew up with Clash and Tia hasiks Vlahovich and I'm
sorry if I butchered her name Life of the Party.
(12:17):
These three titles, they performed so well that Clash was
able to sign a distribution deal, and then all of
our books sort of fell under the umbrella of this
national distribution. So when the paperback came out a year later,
it was a bit easier to get it because then
bookstores it was just easier to distribute it. So it
was definitely a wild ride. But I would have done
(12:38):
it all over again if I had to.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
That is amazing.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
So Okay, you have this small press book that you
make the most of and it winds up being fantastic,
And how does that inform now your next moves? And like,
did you get an agent after that process? And then
you know what's going on now?
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Sure? Yeah, I was able to get an agent. I
am represented by the wonderful, magnanimous Alexa Stark over at
Writer's House. I actually have had my eye on her
my entire career. Thought. I remember submitting like a very
early like a query for Born Me Public, like I
don't know first or second draft. It was not ready
for anything, And I never I sent there was like
(13:22):
a query through her former agency's website, and never heard back,
and I'm like, that is totally fine. It was not
ready for anything. But I did eventually sign with her,
I think about a year and a half ago, because
I have a new book that is on submission now,
and I sent her the proposal and we had a
phone call and the rest was history. And it's been
(13:46):
a dream working with her, and it's really good to
have like a partner like that in my corner.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So, I mean, you knew more going into this next book.
So did you feel like your proposal was like more
ready this time? And did she work with you on
notes on that? How did that go down?
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Yeah? What I love most about I mean, I love
many things about Alexo, but she's also very hands on editorially,
which as an author, I prefer that. You know, a
lot of authors have their own different styles, their own
methods of working with their editors and agents. I really
like someone that's able to not just be familiar with
my voice, like Alexo will be like, Okay, you're putting
(14:31):
too much humor here, because I think you're trying to
shy away from the painful stuff and I'm like, you're right,
I am overcompensating. I needed someone to tell me to
pull back on the jokes here a bit. So I
really love that aspect of that. But yeah, I had
a proposal like a draft complete by the time I
reached out to her, and we have gone back and
forth and you've gone, you know, through many drafts of it.
(14:54):
But we're at a place now where I think it's
pretty solid, and yeah, we are going to to hit
the ground running. I think this fall and we'll see
where it goes. But it has been again, it's gone
through many iterations, so I've gone on submission I think
like two I'm gonna say two separate times, because it
was a completely different book project a year ago. Then
(15:16):
it is now.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Okay, so this is I'm currently on. I mean, part
of the reason I'm doing this series is to like
for myself, I am on submission. It's driving me fucking
crazy because it's my first time and I just don't
really know what to expect. So it's been now a
few months, like it's been this summer. But I hear
(15:37):
stories about people where it takes them fifteen months or
like whatever, So like, is this normal? Especially now, is
it okay If it takes a while, it.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
Is absolutely normal, It's absolutely okay. That doesn't make it
any less anxiety inducing. But I will say because I'm
also you know, we're in the trenches together in the
submission process. I do know and some author friends who
are on sub mission that this season has been especially slow.
I'd there has been a lot of shifts, a lot
of changes, a lot of let's go with unpredictability in
(16:11):
our industry right now, and I think that's sort of
bleeding into what editors are buying and how much they
can buy. You know, I'm sure there's projects that they
would love to buy, but you know, structural changes abound
may put curtail that that opportunity. So I do know
specifically now, I want to say that it has been quiet,
(16:35):
but I also think it's not any different than it
usually is. Because it could take you fifteen months, it
could take you a few weeks. But I think right
now especially, it has been a bit longer. And this
is not just me posturing. I was I remember in
maybe June or May, I was like, it's been a
few weeks, Like is this normal? And like I talked
(16:55):
to some other author friends and they were like, yeah,
we're also waiting too, And the author friends of mine,
they're smarter and more brilliant than me, so if they
can get their books sold, like, what the fuck am
I going to do? So it's just for everyone. And
I talked to a few agents and they're like, yeah,
it's just been really quiet. And it's not because the projects.
You know, the projects are gold. It's just it's just
(17:16):
a slow time right now. I think it's just a
lot of factors, a lot of shifts and changes. So
I think we just have to be patient and more important,
lean on each other during this time because it is anxiety.
It is stressful. I'm texting, you know, we have group
texts going on. I'm like, you know, I have friends
checking on me, be like hey, did you repot your plants?
Because you know you're going to go bonkers sitting there
(17:37):
waiting for an email to come in. So it's definitely
been tough. So I think we need to just, you know,
lean on each other a bit because it is stressful.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
So like with Born to Be Public, I know you
were doing it in different like working on different channels
with that, but like, how long did that take until
you were able to place it.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
I want to say, I'm just remembering my age. I
remember I was twenty nine when I got published. I remember.
I don't know why I can't remember. I don't I
have no idea. I barely remember what he is now.
I can just remember how old I was. I think
I was twenty five by the time I was ready
to get it ready to have other eyes on it.
It got published when I was twenty nine, so that's
(18:18):
what four years, so I want to see like four years,
but that also includes getting an agent, not having an agent,
queering and selling it myself, and then two years between
selling the book and getting it ready for publication, so
it wasn't necessarily just selling the book and putting it out.
I want to say the whole process took about maybe
(18:40):
four or five years.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Uh. And then the part where you were like querying
and finding this small pre you know, finding clash, what
was that like a year of it.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Or that process was luckily a little shorter. I think
I queried agents for maybe about a year until I
signed with my first one, and then we spent oh,
so here we go. Now, I'm sorry to remember I
spent about a year queering until I signed with my
first agent, and then we spent about a year working
on the manuscript, working on the proposal before it went out.
And then I want to say, it didn't take that
(19:13):
long after my agent accepted another job position and then
I sold it myself. It only took a few months. Yeah,
so that was actually part of the shortest part of
the process, because I really was like, I'm going to
do this myself, with or without an agent, and I'm
very stubborn, and once I have my mindset on something,
I just hit the ground running. And I think, I
want to say, I remember it was you ready for this?
(19:37):
I remember I got the acceptance. It was cold, it
was March. I remember going to Applebee's with my mom
and it was freezing. We got home and I remember
coming home from Applebee's to my parents' house in Jersey
and like immediately having to use the bathroom, and I
remember getting the email on the toilet, and I was like, oh,
(19:58):
this is an appropriate time, get an acceptance.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Amazing post Applebee's toilet run.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Yeah yeah, post Applebee's gastro intestinal nine to one one.
And then I get my book deal, So very appropriate. Yeah,
So I want to say it was a few months.
I think it took me like most of the fall too. Yeah,
I want to say it took all Fall to like
submit to these presses. And I got that clash acceptance
(20:26):
in February, so in the winter, so a few months.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
So I mean, what would your advice be, whether it's
practical advice, things that you learned, you know, do this,
don't do this, as far as like etiquette or just
mental health stuff. What would be your advice to people
about going on submission?
Speaker 4 (20:46):
So I think for anyone, I will say this for
people who are on going on submission for the first time,
especially I really I don't say made myself sick, but
I really like neglected my health emotionally and physically, just
because I was focused on selling this book twenty four
to seven, seven days a week, Like this is my baby.
(21:09):
And it's almost like you're sending your kid to college, right,
you want to spend your time, you know, raising them.
But by the time they're eighteen and they not just
go to call whatever they do when they turn eighteen,
when they're adults, like you want them to go off
and spread their wings. So I was like, I need
to nurture this project now, so when it's ready, you know,
it can fly out like a bat out of hell,
which is more my speed. But I will say for
(21:30):
first time some you know, the first your first book,
just know that these things take time. And my best
advice is to yes, it's great to care and you're
gonna you're gonna be checking. I know you're gonna be
checking your email. I can tell you a thousand times
to like try, but I will say, just try to
be mindful of how often you are devoting time and energy.
(21:53):
Because you've already devoted so much time and energy into
your work and the most important part, which is the
writing the process. So when that's out on submission, whether
it's a novel or nonfiction, whatever it is, I say,
just try to spend time doing things that give you joy.
And it can be something stupid like rewatching old episodes
(22:14):
of Lost. It can be repotting your plants like I
have to do. It can be calling your friends. But
more importantly, I think if you have another project that's
tugging at you, you should follow it. The way that
I was able to sort of deal with this this
part of my second time around, I started writing another
book proposal, and I just had this idea and I
(22:37):
had a lot of fun writing this proposal, and that
was a way for me to like stay rejuvenated. But
also know that even if you don't have an idea
of what you want to do next, that's okay too.
It's okay to just sort of go and just you know,
it's always going to come back to you. But try
to just I know this is corny, but try to
just live your life and just realize, yes, give space
(23:00):
to all the emotions that you're going to feel when
you're on submission, but at the same time lead into
things that you know that are going to give you
some joy. Take a walk, grab a drink with a friend,
take up smoking again. Yes, Mike, I say that. I'm kidding.
Don't do that. That's a horrible advice. I would never
(23:22):
be serious about that.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
That's so good.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
Yeah you do. If I just put a huge cigarette,
like like one of those like long legg courella deville,
I had it the whole time.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Amazing.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Is there anything else you want to share with listeners
before we wrap?
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me.
I think this is so important because writing is a
very solitary activity, and the submission process is even more
anxiety inducing. And you know, if you have a good agent,
your agent's going to be you know, serve your confident
on there for you. But the most important advice I
can give you just lean on your friends during this time,
(24:02):
especially your writer friends. Whether this is their fourth book,
we all get anxious. I know writer friends of mine
who are famous who are so anxious about their fourth
or fifth books. And just know that it's normal. Feel
this way. Lean on your friends, take your mind off it.
Like the best things that I've done was just like
calling another friend who's on submission. We just hopped on
(24:22):
FaceTime and we just like gabbed about nothing for two hours.
And that was enough for me to like reset my
mind because it took me out of that spiral. So
it could be something as simple as that. But just
lean on your friends, lean on your loved ones, know
that this is normal, and keep writing. Number one, keep writing.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Yes, well, thank you so much, Thank you, Greg, and
thank you for joining me.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
For this episode of The Bleeders. Oh, writing is so
much better with friends.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I'm your host, Courtney Kosak, and hey, let's connect on
social media. I am at Courtney Kosak, last name is Kocak.
I'm on I'm on Instagram, I'm on Blue Sky, I'm
on TikTok, I'm everywhere. And make sure you're signed up
for the Bleeder's Companion substack for all kinds of newsletter exclusives.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I send out one awesome newsletter.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Every week for free subscribers.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
There is a link in the episode description for.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
That, and I've also launched a paid subscription where I
take you behind the scenes of all my best buylines.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I tell you how to pitch those places.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I've written about my return to stand up comedy and
how I got ready to crush my showcase. I have
written about my MFA and whether or not I think
it is worth it.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
I also have some mini workshops behind the paywall.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
So, like I said, there is a link for the
newsletter in the episode description. I hope you joined me
over there, and I hope you join me back here
next week for another all new episode.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
In the meantime, Happy Bleeding
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!