June 23, 2025 • 29 mins
Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcome
Today’s guest is Dedeker Winston, author of The Smart Girl’s Guide to Polyamory and co-author of Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships. In this episode, Dedeker talks us through her publishing journey—from landing an agent to selling two books, including one co-written with her former polycule and podcast co-hosts. She opens up about the challenges of collaborative writing, the perks of working with more than one agent, and the emotional highs and lows of being on submission. Follow Dedeker on Instagram @dedekerwinston.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
Today’s guest is Dedeker Winston, author of The Smart Girl’s Guide to Polyamory and co-author of Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships. In this episode, Dedeker talks us through her publishing journey—from landing an agent to selling two books, including one co-written with her former polycule and podcast co-hosts. She opens up about the challenges of collaborative writing, the perks of working with more than one agent, and the emotional highs and lows of being on submission. Follow Dedeker on Instagram @dedekerwinston.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
- Start a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminar
- Land Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminar
- The Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writingworkshops.com/products/the-multi-passionate-writers-life-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocak
- How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminar
- Creating Your Podcast: https://www.roadmapwriters.com/products/creating-your-podcast-0
- Podcasting for Writers: How to Start, Sustain & Grow Your Podcast: https://writingworkshops.com/products/podcasting-for-writers-how-to-start-sustain-grow-your-podcast-4-week-zoom-workshop
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
There's nothing to writing.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
All you do is sit down at a typewriter.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
And bleed.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support group about
book writing and publishing.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm writer and podcaster Courtney.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Coosak, and each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors,
agents and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Hey Bleeders, Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
To the third episode in our What to Expect when
You're on Submission series. Today, I am bringing you a
conversation with Dedeker Winston. She is the sole author of
The Smart Girl's Guide to Polyamory, and then she co
wrote Multiamory, Essential Tools for Modern Relationships with her former Polycule.
(00:56):
They host a podcast together it's called Multiamory. In this interview,
Detaker shares her publishing journey from landing an agent to
finding publishers for her debut and then her co authored book,
and how these experiences went down suit to nuts. We
get into the challenges of co writing, the perks of
working with more than one agent, and how she's managed
(01:19):
the emotional ups and downs of being on submission. Detaker
is freaking awesome and I know you're going to love her,
So let's get into it.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Hi. My name is Dedika Winston. I am the author
of The Smart Girl's Guide to Polyamory and the author
of Multiamory Essential Tools for Modern Relationships.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I'm excited to chat with you for this series. So
I guess I mean your latest book that you did
with the Multiamory Crew wasn't your first book, correct.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
It wasn't. No, it was my first time co authoring
a book, which was a learning experience in and of itself.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So take me back to the beginning of your publishing
experience when you know, when you were operating solo. Did
you go on submission with that or was it more
of an indie thing?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
How did that happen?
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Yeah, it's so funny looking back. I never thought that
I was going to be a writer. I never thought
I was going to publish a book in my entire life.
It was never my dream. Someone back in twenty fifteen,
just like was talking to me and planted the idea
in my head of like, oh, you should write a book,
and for some reason I was like, yeah, that does
(02:36):
sound like a really good idea right in this moment.
And so it was all learning from scratch for me,
you know, like having to just spend hours on Google
being like, oh gosh, okay, what's a book proposal? How
do I write one of those? Okay? Okay, all right, okay?
An agent? Oh, how to literary agents work? Okay? I
(02:56):
was coming from the entertainment industry, so very different ways
that it works with representation and getting a project up
and going, how do you write a query letter? Oh
my god? You know, it was just like total information
overload and literally just stumbling through it. And I think
that I got extremely lucky through the process in that
(03:19):
I was querying agents not for that long. Like you know,
it took me about six months to write a proposal
because again I had no idea what I was doing
or if I was doing it right. And then once
I started querying, I think that I got interest from
an agent maybe after just a few queries, honestly, so
probably less than a month. Like, yes, it happened for
me very quickly. And I'm still with those agents. It's
(03:43):
with Uva Stender and Brent Taylor at Treata US, And again,
like so so lucky in that that has been a
wonderful relationship. I trust them so much. They have been
so patient with me as a new baby author, asking
all my questions and also really honest with me, like
really telling it straight about what they think is going
(04:04):
to work and what's not. And as I've acquired more
author friends, especially author friends who are working with agents,
I've realized that that's maybe not a typical experience for everybody.
I've started to hear more and more like agent horror stories,
or not even horror stories, just stories where people share
that their agent is just not that excited, or not
that invested, or maybe not that hands on. And it's
(04:28):
really put into perspective for me how lucky I've been
with these agents. They've just been fantastic, And so you know,
they really helped me through the process and helped me
to refine my proposal. You know, when they first got
my proposal when I was querying, they even requested a
different chapter, like I had just kind of written an
intro chapter, and they were just kind of like, can
(04:49):
you get us just like a different chapter in like
two weeks or so, And I was like, Okay, wrote
a chapter of a book, probably faster than I've written
anything in my entire life. But it was good enough
if they liked it and they signed me. They worked
with me to really help refine the proposal, and then
when it went out on submission, Uva, one of my agents,
(05:10):
was I should back up and say that, you know,
my first book was about polyamory, and so it was
this funny irony that I ended up with two agents
at the same time, because you know, you can't have
just one. So Uva was honest with me where he said,
you know, we'll see when we've put something on submission,
it could get interest in a few months, a few weeks,
(05:33):
but I'll be honest with you that I have a
client whose proposal I didn't sell for ten years. Oh
my god, but it happened ten years later. Yeah, And
so him telling me that actually it was quite helpful.
It was more helpful than it was intimidating, because once
it was out there, I think I really internalized that
sense of it could be ten years and so I'm
(05:55):
just not going to worry about it too much. I'm
gonna throw myself into the projects and try to focus
on what I can focus on. And then got to
be pleasantly surprised when again got very lucky. And then
it was just like I think maybe a month later,
oh my god, it started. Yes, yeah, I know it was.
It was absolutely wild, like I was. I think I
(06:16):
was so spoiled looking back on.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
It, that is amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
So, you know, what's just on one of the points
you said about the agent thing. I know some writers
who even early in their career, they're on like their
third agent. So that is incredibly lucky that, like you
actually like working with them and it's worked out.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
Yeah, and and they're still representing me now. It was
also this weird sort of serendipitous thing that when we
pulled the proposal together for the most recent books, so
me and my co authors pulled together the proposal for Multiamory,
we were approached by a different agent who was a
listener of our podcast actually where Jace, one of my
co hosts and co authors, had just mentioned offhand that
(06:58):
he was interested in maybe writing a book about something
entirely different. And so this agent reached out to us,
initially wanting to talk to Jace, but then ended up
talking to all three of us, and then we learned
that he had also worked with my agents on a
previous project like years ago, that they had collaborated and
they had had a good experience together, and so it
(07:20):
was just like this nice natural fit that they all
knew each other already. And so then I acquired an
even more polyamorous agent situation, like built out this polycule
where our new agent, Michael and Uva kind of collaborated
on you know, giving feedback and putting it out on
submission and the contract negotiation process. And it's so funny
(07:42):
when I describe it, it sounds really complicated, but it
worked out great with actually a pretty minimum of I
would say conflict or tension between our agents or between
all of us.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
So the listener that is an agent, how did that
wind up working out? So it's like your agents are
representing the product and he is representing the project and
the other two people involved, your co authors.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Yeah, I'm trying to remember how it all went down,
because this conversation happened in twenty nineteen, which was pre pandemic,
so it feels like it was two hundred years ago
when there was so much that happened between now and then.
But yeah, I think that now that I recall. Actually
I do think Michael did sign Jace initially, but then
(08:31):
I think after Jace signed, sort of as Jace was
thinking about his own book. The three of us were
also talking about a book, and so Jase kind of decided, well,
let's bring that into the conversation with Michael as well.
And I think we all just kind of got much
more excited. And I think Jase was also intimidated by
the idea of writing a book on his own and
more excited about co authoring first time out the gate.
And so yeah, I think the way we landed was that,
(08:54):
you know, my agent still represented me, and then Michael
represented Jace and Emily, and then essentially, you know, the
commission was split between the two different agencies. Of course,
I didn't necessarily see behind the scenes how they split
the labor necessarily. I mean, from what I can see
now going through this process with them for a few years,
(09:15):
it seems pretty equal. What actually has been great is
like having multiple agents bringing different styles to it, you know,
and knowing you know, Oove over here has this particular strength,
but Michael over here has this particular strength when it
comes to negotiating. So and it's so funny. I've just
you know, I have new like friends and new authors
come to me asking about this whole submission thing. Right,
(09:36):
should I get an Asian. Should I just work with
the publisher? I don't know, And because I've had such
a positive experience, I'm always just like rallying behind, like
get representation, do it. It's going to be so great,
like they're going to be on your team. And I
know that's not the case for everybody, but I do
think people should try. In my opinion, I think people
should should give it a try, because I've also heard
some horror stories of people trying to negotiate their own
(09:59):
publishing contracts.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, and if you don't know.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Yes, yeah, if you don't know and it doesn't even
have to be that you're working with an evil publisher
who wants to exploit you. It's just you don't know.
And so of course the publisher is going to act
in their best interests at every turn, really just being business.
It's not even anything personal. And so sometimes authors can
end up I mean I've seen authors end up just
(10:24):
losing a lot of rights or not even knowing what
they can ask for from a publisher because there isn't
that middleman totally.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
So Okay, rewinding to your first experience, you know, you're
a month out and you sell this thing, where does
it go and yeah, how is the experience from there?
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Yeah. So I got two offers. One was from Roman
and Littlefields, which is a more academic publisher, and then
one was from Skyhorse Press. And you know, I think
the offer from Roman and Littlefield we ended up passing on.
We ended up going with Skyhorse. Roman and Littlefield is
much more of an academic press, although they've evolved now,
(11:10):
they've actually evolved into a lot more non academic stuff.
So part of it was a little worried that, ooh,
this make ended up going more academic, it may end
up priced like a textbook, you know, as opposed to
something more commercial. And also I think they wanted to
give me maybe four months to write the manuscript.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Oh god, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
So I was like, oh, I don't know about that.
And then with Skyhorse, you know, my agents were still
hesitant because the fact that Skyhorse did and still does
acquire pretty heavily, and so they were a little worried
about my book getting a little bit lost in the shuffle,
which I don't want to spend a ton of time
necessarily like unpacking all the publisher drama that I've run
into with both my first book and the second book,
(11:51):
some of it I can't. Yeah, that's another episode for
another time, but I will say that, you know, my
experience with Skyhorse, I had this really fantastic editor, which
was great, you know, just like having her on my
team was fantastic. I do think I got a little
bit lost in the shuffle with Skyhorse, and so like
it was good that I think I had the qualities
(12:13):
that I think any author needs to have now, which
is like you have to really be a self starter, yeah,
and really be ready to hustle and grind to get
your book to sell and to make those connections. And
so I'm really proud for like how my first book
has done considering that, like, I don't think I got
the support that maybe maybe I could have gotten from
the publisher, but it's still done quite well.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And then luckily you have your podcast.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
And yes, and that way back then that was even
before the podcast was that big. Really like we had
a little bit of a following and like some connections,
but not nearly as many, and so that was really
nice the second time around that we've had this podcast
that's grown really steadily, and you know, we had you know,
several years of interviewing so many other authors and podcasters
(12:58):
and people who could give endorsement, so that we had
a really nice established network to be able to support
us in selling the book.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Okay, So how did you take all that you know,
you'd been through this one experience. Did it help inform
the second time you went on submission? And yeah, give
me the skinny on that.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
It was helpful. It was helpful to be I guess,
quote unquote, the more experienced one of the trio of authors, right,
you know, to be able to calm down my two
co authors about like, Okay, no, this is normal. No
I ran into this the first time around. No, it's okay, Okay,
Now I think that this is what we can expect,
or maybe this is what we can not expect in
this situation. I definitely felt more informed heading into conversations
(13:46):
with acquisitions editors, you know, knew better questions to ask
the next time around, But I wasn't prepared for the
actual co writing process. That was all new to me.
And again coming in with a pretty good foundation in
that I'm co authoring with two people that I've been
co producing a podcast with and co hosting a podcast
(14:06):
with for several years. So there's already an established working relationship. However,
I'm like a total control freak when it comes to
my writing and everything else in my life. I feel like.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
We're very similar. When we did the interview with you guys,
we were matching up on all of our idiosyncrasies.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Totally, and so that was probably the most challenging part
was having to accept that, like, yeah, someone's going to
write a section of this book, and they're going to
write it differently than I would write it. You know,
they're going to use a turnip phrase. It's a little
bit different than the turnip phrase that I might use,
and not to get to like poetic or philosophic with it.
(14:51):
But I do think that sort of creative tension helped us,
you know, because it was tension but never really dissolved
into like flat out a straight up diametrically opposed creative conflict. Again,
because we're used to working with each other, we're used
to battling our ideas against each other, for lack of
a better term, And probably the biggest point of conflict
(15:15):
we ever ran into in the writing process was like
I reached a point where I made a very controversial
proposal that we might cut an entire chapter that the
other two were much more attached to, and so yeah,
if it was up to me, i'd be like, not,
this chapter is gone. If it was up to them,
it's like, no, this is super super important. And what
happened in the end is, you know, I kind of
(15:36):
had to cool my jets on it a little bit,
and we gave it to some beta readers and did
specifically like after the beta readers read it, then asked
them about, Okay, what do you think about this chapter.
Does it feel like if it's missing that the book
is going to fall apart or you know, what do
you think? And our beta readers pretty much everyone was like, no,
(15:57):
this chapter needs to stay in Like no, this is
this is really important. And so for me it was
a big pivoting moment away from I realized it showed
some of my own writing process, because I do have
this big inner critic and this interperfectionist that is like,
it's not perfect, throw it in the garbage and start
over and try to do something more perfect. And then
(16:18):
when that wasn't an option of like, Okay, we're not
going to throw this in the garbage, then I had
to sit through sort of a combination of like, Okay,
I need to get clear on like how I want
this to change, you know, like what are the ways
that I can change? Or is or is it writing
that somebody else can change? How can we make this
chapter better and feel better for me? So having to
(16:39):
think about that go a step further beyond just throw
it in the garbage, and then also having to sit
with it's going to be imperfect and I have to
live with that, which is a lesson. I'm still I'm
still learning.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
A did you like, could you give each other notes
on the stuff that you'd written by yourselves?
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Yes, So our process, once we've gotten through like all
the outlining and figuring out the structure of the overall
book and the structure of each chapter, we would roughly
divide up the work in the sense of like, okay,
m you take a crack at writing a draft of
this section, and I'll take a crack at writing a
draft of this section, and Jase will take this section,
(17:19):
and then a week later or two weeks later. Then
you know, it is like being back in high school,
like great, pass your essay to the to the person
behind you, and we would do that. You know, and
then I read through somebody else's writing and I'm trying
to remember if what our process there was, because god
damn it. I mean we touched the whole book like
six billion times, right, like how can you not? You know.
(17:42):
So there were some times where it was, Okay, you're
just gonna look at somebody's writing and give notes. Sometimes
it was you're gonna look at somebody's writing and you're
going to add, or you're or it's okay to subtract,
or if you're going to make a big subtraction, let's
make that a comment and see if we can get
approval on that first, right. And so ultimately, like every
piece of writing was passed through all of our hands
(18:03):
again and again and again and again again, and I
am really happy with the end result. You know, our editor,
you know, specifically told us because for our editor was
the first time she'd edited something written by three authors,
and you know, she really commended us on finding a
pretty unified voice, you know, without any kind of intense
breaks in the flow of Oh, clearly it's we've switched writers, now,
(18:25):
we've switched styles. I think we found a pretty good voice.
Of course, when I scan through it, I can see
like a particular port of phrase and be like, oh, yeah,
that's an Emily phrase, or oh yeah, that's a Jace phrase,
or oh the the that's a Me phrase. You know,
but I think to the average person, they're probably not
going to notice hopefully.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, no, it's it's it was a cohesive read for
my Oh good, good, my point of view.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Glad to hear that.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
So did you have multiple offers on this joint book?
And how did the actually getting the deal? How did
that happen?
Speaker 4 (19:04):
We had fewer offers on this one, and again, looking back,
it was a nutso time. It was the beginning of
the pandemic when all this was happening, you know. I
think that we went out on submission probably just a
few months in to the pandemic. Yeah, yeah, So it
was already so much going on in our brains and
(19:24):
hearts and everybody's brains and hearts at that time, and
so it's hard for me to remember, but yeah, we
when we identified kind of the primary and probably most
attractive offer, we sat down with the acquisitions editor and
had a lot of conversations with our agents there, asking
a lot of questions and mostly got pretty good you know,
(19:48):
I guess like Green Flags, I would say, you know,
our agents were hesitant because when we asked about like
PR support, you know, our agents to tell us, like,
we weren't super happy with kind of the answer that
they gave. I took that with a grain of salt,
just knowing that, like, it feels like PR support from
publishers is kind of not great across the board unless
you're already you know, a huge triple A author. So
(20:11):
I am happy to say that my experience with PR
with our latest publisher, Cliis was a lot more positive
than my experience with Skyhorse, again with a big asterisk
that it was like just okay in the end, you know,
you know, mostly we were fortunate in that. I mean,
really we had our own built in book promotion machine,
which was the podcast, you know, which we devoted like
(20:34):
so many years into building and so and having a
built in audience was probably the most useful thing.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, and I'm sure that was a selling point for
them too when they.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Bonded them, for sure.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
So how long were you on submission that second time?
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Oh, I want to say maybe between three to six months. Okay,
I think, like I said, it was early pandemic time
was all across the boat was all over the map,
and so who the hell knows could be completely misremembering that.
But yeah, I want to say at least a few months.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
That seems like a pretty average answer.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Yeah, that three to six months months? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I guess.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Was there anything else on the publishing end that you
have learned or any big takeaways from going through these
two experiences?
Speaker 4 (21:22):
Yeah? So I said earlier that I felt much more
prepared for the conversation with the acquisitions editor heading into it. Though,
I reached out to a couple of other author friends asking, hey,
what would you ask or have you asked questions in
these conversations that have been helpful to you? And one
of my friends she said, you know, I would recommend
(21:44):
asking the editor if they're planning on leaving anytime soon,
because her in her experience, she was like, yeah, I
worked with this editor when I was acquired by this publisher.
Then the editor left, and then the editor I got
was really weird, you know, like sounds like it was
an negative experience. And I chickened out from asking that question,
(22:04):
and I should have, because the acquisition's editor left.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
She Oh my god, and we're lucky again.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Like, I think it worked out okay, that the editor
we ended up with was pretty good, we had a
good relationship. But I was just like, damn it, I
should have listened to my friend. I should have asked her.
Now would she have been honest? I don't know, you know,
because being asked that question point blank could be a
little awkward, especially if she is planning on leaving. And
so maybe in the future I might need to workshop
(22:32):
a version of that question that gets the information I'm
hoping for without scaring someone off. But I think I
would have appreciated knowing that because also now after the fact,
working with this publisher, like we've learned about kind of
the way they operate behind the scenes and kind of
the company culture that I maybe might I think in
the future, might do some more pointed questions. Interest about that.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
So if you were going to give advice to a
person going that's on submission or that's about to go
on submission.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I'm currently on submission, it's hillacious.
Speaker 5 (23:08):
Oh emotionally, but do you have any It could be
practical advice, you know, or like logistical stuff or just
like how to stay sane.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
What would be your big advice.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Col Can I ask really quick, what's the hardest part
for you?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
You know, it was easy to get my agent relatively,
you know, like it happened really naturally.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I didn't have to work that hard.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Like I sent out some queries and then I met
this guy in a webinar and it was just like
I was like, oh, he's going to be my agent.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Before it even happened.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And then this just feels like so much more.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
It's like I'm further along.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
So it's like, I don't know, it means more, I
take it more. I've had some really nice region as
I had a close call. I'm about to send him
another manuscript that hopefully he can like also go out
with that too.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
But it's just I don't know, it's just hard.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Yeah, yeah, Okay. So hearing you describe that, it's making
me think of the advice that I give to my clients.
So I work with clients on their relationships, not with
writing or anything at all for the most part, but
I work with clients and there's a particular piece of
advice that I give people who are going through NRA
(24:33):
or new relationship energy, you know, so that big like butterfly,
you know, super exciting and also terrifying phase of a
new relationship. And I like to tell people head in
the clouds, feet on the ground, because so it's the
kind of thing where I think it's important to remain
hopeful and cautiously optimistic. You know, like this is actually
(24:56):
like a really precious, exciting time where you know, once
you get an offer, once it's off to the races,
you're going to be so preoccupied with so many things
and stressed out by so many things. And it's like
this is sort of like this this really special time
where we get this special mix of emotions, the terror
(25:17):
and the excitement and the hope and the despair, and
that's all like before you're even writing the dang thing
quite yet. And so I think there's something about treasuring that,
and like when you have those moments of hopefulness and excitement,
to treasure that. So that's the head in the clouds part,
and then the feet on the ground part is to
you know, make sure that you're taking care of yourself,
(25:39):
make sure that you're still moving forward with the rest
of your life and other projects, your relationships, taking care
of your body, you know, reaching out for support. You know,
if you can find support among other authors who've been
through this, like even better because most people know like
what you're going through. So yeah, I think it's kind
(25:59):
of like to find a way to nurture both of
those experiences. You know, you don't want to just crush
all your hope and just jump to being jaded and
like such a thick skin that like the good parts
of this can't penetrate you. But you also don't want
to be just like blown about in a whirlwind of
emotions every single day.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, I'm trying to like remember that the good part
is the writing or you know, like that's what I love.
And so continuing to work on this other project that
I had in progress that's like a full length manuscript
that I feel like I have more control over, is
like giving me an outlet at least to like channel
(26:41):
my energy.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
Good good good. And I don't know, it's so funny
because I'm you know, I have another book project that
I've kind of been like cooking up in the back
of my brain for like years now. I did. I
don't know if this is a typical writer thing. It
feels like a typical writer thing where when I was
working on the last manuscript, I was fantasizing about the
next one, you know, like, Oh, it'd be so much
(27:03):
more fun if I could work on project instead, Yes,
this project instead. And so I'm sort of workshopping the
concept with my agent a little bit right now. And
even going through this process twice now, I'm it's still
the same excitement and terror. It hasn't gone away. And
I guess I'm also trying to learn to like treasure
just treasure that as well. But even after this time,
(27:25):
even after having the experience, that's still there, you know,
the stakes are the stakes are still there.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Well, this has been great.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Is there anything else you want to leave listeners with
about publishing or what to expect when you're on submission.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
I saw this really funny tweet a long time ago.
I'm not going to quote it accurately, but the gist
of it was basically like, whenever someone leaves a negative
review on a book, they should be required to follow
it up by saying, but this person worked really hard
and they accomplished putting out a book, and so that's cool, right,
And so I think about, Yeah, I try to avoid
(28:01):
reading my reviews in general, but anytime a negative review
has come through, or if a rejection has come through,
I think trying to remind myself of that that it's like,
even if it's like I still wrote a freaking ninety
page proposal, or like I still am putting myself out there,
I've still done this effort, and I think that you know,
that can be a little gem to hold on to
(28:21):
in the midst of dealing with rejections in particular.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
That's great.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Thank you, thank you, Thank you so much to ded Okur,
and thank you for joining me for this episode of
The bleedersh Writing is so much better with friends.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I'm your host, Courtney Cosack.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
And hey, let's connect on social media. I am at
Courtney Kosak, last name is Kocak. I'm on Instagram, I'm
on Twitter, I'm on Blue Sky, I'm on Threads, I'm
on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Find me everywhere and make.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Sure you're signed up for The Bleeder's Companion substack for
all kinds of newsletter exclusives.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I send out awesome stuff to my.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Free list, and I also have a paid subscription where
I take you behind the scenes of all my best
bylines I've written about my return to stand up comedy,
and how I got ready to crush my showcase, my MFA,
and whether or not I think it is worth it.
I also have some mini workshops behind the paywall. There
is a link to subscribe to The Bleeder's Companion sub
(29:22):
stack in the episode description, so make sure you join
me there and join me again next week for an
all new episode.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
In the meantime, Happy Bleeding
There's nothing to writing.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
All you do is sit down at a typewriter.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
And bleed.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support group about
book writing and publishing.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm writer and podcaster Courtney.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Coosak, and each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors,
agents and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Hey Bleeders, Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
To the third episode in our What to Expect when
You're on Submission series. Today, I am bringing you a
conversation with Dedeker Winston. She is the sole author of
The Smart Girl's Guide to Polyamory, and then she co
wrote Multiamory, Essential Tools for Modern Relationships with her former Polycule.
(00:56):
They host a podcast together it's called Multiamory. In this interview,
Detaker shares her publishing journey from landing an agent to
finding publishers for her debut and then her co authored book,
and how these experiences went down suit to nuts. We
get into the challenges of co writing, the perks of
working with more than one agent, and how she's managed
(01:19):
the emotional ups and downs of being on submission. Detaker
is freaking awesome and I know you're going to love her,
So let's get into it.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Hi. My name is Dedika Winston. I am the author
of The Smart Girl's Guide to Polyamory and the author
of Multiamory Essential Tools for Modern Relationships.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I'm excited to chat with you for this series. So
I guess I mean your latest book that you did
with the Multiamory Crew wasn't your first book, correct.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
It wasn't. No, it was my first time co authoring
a book, which was a learning experience in and of itself.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So take me back to the beginning of your publishing
experience when you know, when you were operating solo. Did
you go on submission with that or was it more
of an indie thing?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
How did that happen?
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Yeah, it's so funny looking back. I never thought that
I was going to be a writer. I never thought
I was going to publish a book in my entire life.
It was never my dream. Someone back in twenty fifteen,
just like was talking to me and planted the idea
in my head of like, oh, you should write a book,
and for some reason I was like, yeah, that does
(02:36):
sound like a really good idea right in this moment.
And so it was all learning from scratch for me,
you know, like having to just spend hours on Google
being like, oh gosh, okay, what's a book proposal? How
do I write one of those? Okay? Okay, all right, okay?
An agent? Oh, how to literary agents work? Okay? I
(02:56):
was coming from the entertainment industry, so very different ways
that it works with representation and getting a project up
and going, how do you write a query letter? Oh
my god? You know, it was just like total information
overload and literally just stumbling through it. And I think
that I got extremely lucky through the process in that
(03:19):
I was querying agents not for that long. Like you know,
it took me about six months to write a proposal
because again I had no idea what I was doing
or if I was doing it right. And then once
I started querying, I think that I got interest from
an agent maybe after just a few queries, honestly, so
probably less than a month. Like, yes, it happened for
me very quickly. And I'm still with those agents. It's
(03:43):
with Uva Stender and Brent Taylor at Treata US, And again,
like so so lucky in that that has been a
wonderful relationship. I trust them so much. They have been
so patient with me as a new baby author, asking
all my questions and also really honest with me, like
really telling it straight about what they think is going
(04:04):
to work and what's not. And as I've acquired more
author friends, especially author friends who are working with agents,
I've realized that that's maybe not a typical experience for everybody.
I've started to hear more and more like agent horror stories,
or not even horror stories, just stories where people share
that their agent is just not that excited, or not
that invested, or maybe not that hands on. And it's
(04:28):
really put into perspective for me how lucky I've been
with these agents. They've just been fantastic, And so you know,
they really helped me through the process and helped me
to refine my proposal. You know, when they first got
my proposal when I was querying, they even requested a
different chapter, like I had just kind of written an
intro chapter, and they were just kind of like, can
(04:49):
you get us just like a different chapter in like
two weeks or so, And I was like, Okay, wrote
a chapter of a book, probably faster than I've written
anything in my entire life. But it was good enough
if they liked it and they signed me. They worked
with me to really help refine the proposal, and then
when it went out on submission, Uva, one of my agents,
(05:10):
was I should back up and say that, you know,
my first book was about polyamory, and so it was
this funny irony that I ended up with two agents
at the same time, because you know, you can't have
just one. So Uva was honest with me where he said,
you know, we'll see when we've put something on submission,
it could get interest in a few months, a few weeks,
(05:33):
but I'll be honest with you that I have a
client whose proposal I didn't sell for ten years. Oh
my god, but it happened ten years later. Yeah, And
so him telling me that actually it was quite helpful.
It was more helpful than it was intimidating, because once
it was out there, I think I really internalized that
sense of it could be ten years and so I'm
(05:55):
just not going to worry about it too much. I'm
gonna throw myself into the projects and try to focus
on what I can focus on. And then got to
be pleasantly surprised when again got very lucky. And then
it was just like I think maybe a month later,
oh my god, it started. Yes, yeah, I know it was.
It was absolutely wild, like I was. I think I
(06:16):
was so spoiled looking back on.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
It, that is amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
So, you know, what's just on one of the points
you said about the agent thing. I know some writers
who even early in their career, they're on like their
third agent. So that is incredibly lucky that, like you
actually like working with them and it's worked out.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
Yeah, and and they're still representing me now. It was
also this weird sort of serendipitous thing that when we
pulled the proposal together for the most recent books, so
me and my co authors pulled together the proposal for Multiamory,
we were approached by a different agent who was a
listener of our podcast actually where Jace, one of my
co hosts and co authors, had just mentioned offhand that
(06:58):
he was interested in maybe writing a book about something
entirely different. And so this agent reached out to us,
initially wanting to talk to Jace, but then ended up
talking to all three of us, and then we learned
that he had also worked with my agents on a
previous project like years ago, that they had collaborated and
they had had a good experience together, and so it
(07:20):
was just like this nice natural fit that they all
knew each other already. And so then I acquired an
even more polyamorous agent situation, like built out this polycule
where our new agent, Michael and Uva kind of collaborated
on you know, giving feedback and putting it out on
submission and the contract negotiation process. And it's so funny
(07:42):
when I describe it, it sounds really complicated, but it
worked out great with actually a pretty minimum of I
would say conflict or tension between our agents or between
all of us.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
So the listener that is an agent, how did that
wind up working out? So it's like your agents are
representing the product and he is representing the project and
the other two people involved, your co authors.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Yeah, I'm trying to remember how it all went down,
because this conversation happened in twenty nineteen, which was pre pandemic,
so it feels like it was two hundred years ago
when there was so much that happened between now and then.
But yeah, I think that now that I recall. Actually
I do think Michael did sign Jace initially, but then
(08:31):
I think after Jace signed, sort of as Jace was
thinking about his own book. The three of us were
also talking about a book, and so Jase kind of decided, well,
let's bring that into the conversation with Michael as well.
And I think we all just kind of got much
more excited. And I think Jase was also intimidated by
the idea of writing a book on his own and
more excited about co authoring first time out the gate.
And so yeah, I think the way we landed was that,
(08:54):
you know, my agent still represented me, and then Michael
represented Jace and Emily, and then essentially, you know, the
commission was split between the two different agencies. Of course,
I didn't necessarily see behind the scenes how they split
the labor necessarily. I mean, from what I can see
now going through this process with them for a few years,
(09:15):
it seems pretty equal. What actually has been great is
like having multiple agents bringing different styles to it, you know,
and knowing you know, Oove over here has this particular strength,
but Michael over here has this particular strength when it
comes to negotiating. So and it's so funny. I've just
you know, I have new like friends and new authors
come to me asking about this whole submission thing. Right,
(09:36):
should I get an Asian. Should I just work with
the publisher? I don't know, And because I've had such
a positive experience, I'm always just like rallying behind, like
get representation, do it. It's going to be so great,
like they're going to be on your team. And I
know that's not the case for everybody, but I do
think people should try. In my opinion, I think people
should should give it a try, because I've also heard
some horror stories of people trying to negotiate their own
(09:59):
publishing contracts.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, and if you don't know.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Yes, yeah, if you don't know and it doesn't even
have to be that you're working with an evil publisher
who wants to exploit you. It's just you don't know.
And so of course the publisher is going to act
in their best interests at every turn, really just being business.
It's not even anything personal. And so sometimes authors can
end up I mean I've seen authors end up just
(10:24):
losing a lot of rights or not even knowing what
they can ask for from a publisher because there isn't
that middleman totally.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
So Okay, rewinding to your first experience, you know, you're
a month out and you sell this thing, where does
it go and yeah, how is the experience from there?
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Yeah. So I got two offers. One was from Roman
and Littlefields, which is a more academic publisher, and then
one was from Skyhorse Press. And you know, I think
the offer from Roman and Littlefield we ended up passing on.
We ended up going with Skyhorse. Roman and Littlefield is
much more of an academic press, although they've evolved now,
(11:10):
they've actually evolved into a lot more non academic stuff.
So part of it was a little worried that, ooh,
this make ended up going more academic, it may end
up priced like a textbook, you know, as opposed to
something more commercial. And also I think they wanted to
give me maybe four months to write the manuscript.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Oh god, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
So I was like, oh, I don't know about that.
And then with Skyhorse, you know, my agents were still
hesitant because the fact that Skyhorse did and still does
acquire pretty heavily, and so they were a little worried
about my book getting a little bit lost in the shuffle,
which I don't want to spend a ton of time
necessarily like unpacking all the publisher drama that I've run
into with both my first book and the second book,
(11:51):
some of it I can't. Yeah, that's another episode for
another time, but I will say that, you know, my
experience with Skyhorse, I had this really fantastic editor, which
was great, you know, just like having her on my
team was fantastic. I do think I got a little
bit lost in the shuffle with Skyhorse, and so like
it was good that I think I had the qualities
(12:13):
that I think any author needs to have now, which
is like you have to really be a self starter, yeah,
and really be ready to hustle and grind to get
your book to sell and to make those connections. And
so I'm really proud for like how my first book
has done considering that, like, I don't think I got
the support that maybe maybe I could have gotten from
the publisher, but it's still done quite well.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And then luckily you have your podcast.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
And yes, and that way back then that was even
before the podcast was that big. Really like we had
a little bit of a following and like some connections,
but not nearly as many, and so that was really
nice the second time around that we've had this podcast
that's grown really steadily, and you know, we had you know,
several years of interviewing so many other authors and podcasters
(12:58):
and people who could give endorsement, so that we had
a really nice established network to be able to support
us in selling the book.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Okay, So how did you take all that you know,
you'd been through this one experience. Did it help inform
the second time you went on submission? And yeah, give
me the skinny on that.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
It was helpful. It was helpful to be I guess,
quote unquote, the more experienced one of the trio of authors, right,
you know, to be able to calm down my two
co authors about like, Okay, no, this is normal. No
I ran into this the first time around. No, it's okay, Okay,
Now I think that this is what we can expect,
or maybe this is what we can not expect in
this situation. I definitely felt more informed heading into conversations
(13:46):
with acquisitions editors, you know, knew better questions to ask
the next time around, But I wasn't prepared for the
actual co writing process. That was all new to me.
And again coming in with a pretty good foundation in
that I'm co authoring with two people that I've been
co producing a podcast with and co hosting a podcast
(14:06):
with for several years. So there's already an established working relationship. However,
I'm like a total control freak when it comes to
my writing and everything else in my life. I feel like.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
We're very similar. When we did the interview with you guys,
we were matching up on all of our idiosyncrasies.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Totally, and so that was probably the most challenging part
was having to accept that, like, yeah, someone's going to
write a section of this book, and they're going to
write it differently than I would write it. You know,
they're going to use a turnip phrase. It's a little
bit different than the turnip phrase that I might use,
and not to get to like poetic or philosophic with it.
(14:51):
But I do think that sort of creative tension helped us,
you know, because it was tension but never really dissolved
into like flat out a straight up diametrically opposed creative conflict. Again,
because we're used to working with each other, we're used
to battling our ideas against each other, for lack of
a better term, And probably the biggest point of conflict
(15:15):
we ever ran into in the writing process was like
I reached a point where I made a very controversial
proposal that we might cut an entire chapter that the
other two were much more attached to, and so yeah,
if it was up to me, i'd be like, not,
this chapter is gone. If it was up to them,
it's like, no, this is super super important. And what
happened in the end is, you know, I kind of
(15:36):
had to cool my jets on it a little bit,
and we gave it to some beta readers and did
specifically like after the beta readers read it, then asked
them about, Okay, what do you think about this chapter.
Does it feel like if it's missing that the book
is going to fall apart or you know, what do
you think? And our beta readers pretty much everyone was like, no,
(15:57):
this chapter needs to stay in Like no, this is
this is really important. And so for me it was
a big pivoting moment away from I realized it showed
some of my own writing process, because I do have
this big inner critic and this interperfectionist that is like,
it's not perfect, throw it in the garbage and start
over and try to do something more perfect. And then
(16:18):
when that wasn't an option of like, Okay, we're not
going to throw this in the garbage, then I had
to sit through sort of a combination of like, Okay,
I need to get clear on like how I want
this to change, you know, like what are the ways
that I can change? Or is or is it writing
that somebody else can change? How can we make this
chapter better and feel better for me? So having to
(16:39):
think about that go a step further beyond just throw
it in the garbage, and then also having to sit
with it's going to be imperfect and I have to
live with that, which is a lesson. I'm still I'm
still learning.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
A did you like, could you give each other notes
on the stuff that you'd written by yourselves?
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Yes, So our process, once we've gotten through like all
the outlining and figuring out the structure of the overall
book and the structure of each chapter, we would roughly
divide up the work in the sense of like, okay,
m you take a crack at writing a draft of
this section, and I'll take a crack at writing a
draft of this section, and Jase will take this section,
(17:19):
and then a week later or two weeks later. Then
you know, it is like being back in high school,
like great, pass your essay to the to the person
behind you, and we would do that. You know, and
then I read through somebody else's writing and I'm trying
to remember if what our process there was, because god
damn it. I mean we touched the whole book like
six billion times, right, like how can you not? You know.
(17:42):
So there were some times where it was, Okay, you're
just gonna look at somebody's writing and give notes. Sometimes
it was you're gonna look at somebody's writing and you're
going to add, or you're or it's okay to subtract,
or if you're going to make a big subtraction, let's
make that a comment and see if we can get
approval on that first, right. And so ultimately, like every
piece of writing was passed through all of our hands
(18:03):
again and again and again and again again, and I
am really happy with the end result. You know, our editor,
you know, specifically told us because for our editor was
the first time she'd edited something written by three authors,
and you know, she really commended us on finding a
pretty unified voice, you know, without any kind of intense
breaks in the flow of Oh, clearly it's we've switched writers, now,
(18:25):
we've switched styles. I think we found a pretty good voice.
Of course, when I scan through it, I can see
like a particular port of phrase and be like, oh, yeah,
that's an Emily phrase, or oh yeah, that's a Jace phrase,
or oh the the that's a Me phrase. You know,
but I think to the average person, they're probably not
going to notice hopefully.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, no, it's it's it was a cohesive read for
my Oh good, good, my point of view.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Glad to hear that.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
So did you have multiple offers on this joint book?
And how did the actually getting the deal? How did
that happen?
Speaker 4 (19:04):
We had fewer offers on this one, and again, looking back,
it was a nutso time. It was the beginning of
the pandemic when all this was happening, you know. I
think that we went out on submission probably just a
few months in to the pandemic. Yeah, yeah, So it
was already so much going on in our brains and
(19:24):
hearts and everybody's brains and hearts at that time, and
so it's hard for me to remember, but yeah, we
when we identified kind of the primary and probably most
attractive offer, we sat down with the acquisitions editor and
had a lot of conversations with our agents there, asking
a lot of questions and mostly got pretty good you know,
(19:48):
I guess like Green Flags, I would say, you know,
our agents were hesitant because when we asked about like
PR support, you know, our agents to tell us, like,
we weren't super happy with kind of the answer that
they gave. I took that with a grain of salt,
just knowing that, like, it feels like PR support from
publishers is kind of not great across the board unless
you're already you know, a huge triple A author. So
(20:11):
I am happy to say that my experience with PR
with our latest publisher, Cliis was a lot more positive
than my experience with Skyhorse, again with a big asterisk
that it was like just okay in the end, you know,
you know, mostly we were fortunate in that. I mean,
really we had our own built in book promotion machine,
which was the podcast, you know, which we devoted like
(20:34):
so many years into building and so and having a
built in audience was probably the most useful thing.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, and I'm sure that was a selling point for
them too when they.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Bonded them, for sure.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
So how long were you on submission that second time?
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Oh, I want to say maybe between three to six months. Okay,
I think, like I said, it was early pandemic time
was all across the boat was all over the map,
and so who the hell knows could be completely misremembering that.
But yeah, I want to say at least a few months.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
That seems like a pretty average answer.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Yeah, that three to six months months? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I guess.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Was there anything else on the publishing end that you
have learned or any big takeaways from going through these
two experiences?
Speaker 4 (21:22):
Yeah? So I said earlier that I felt much more
prepared for the conversation with the acquisitions editor heading into it. Though,
I reached out to a couple of other author friends asking, hey,
what would you ask or have you asked questions in
these conversations that have been helpful to you? And one
of my friends she said, you know, I would recommend
(21:44):
asking the editor if they're planning on leaving anytime soon,
because her in her experience, she was like, yeah, I
worked with this editor when I was acquired by this publisher.
Then the editor left, and then the editor I got
was really weird, you know, like sounds like it was
an negative experience. And I chickened out from asking that question,
(22:04):
and I should have, because the acquisition's editor left.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
She Oh my god, and we're lucky again.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Like, I think it worked out okay, that the editor
we ended up with was pretty good, we had a
good relationship. But I was just like, damn it, I
should have listened to my friend. I should have asked her.
Now would she have been honest? I don't know, you know,
because being asked that question point blank could be a
little awkward, especially if she is planning on leaving. And
so maybe in the future I might need to workshop
(22:32):
a version of that question that gets the information I'm
hoping for without scaring someone off. But I think I
would have appreciated knowing that because also now after the fact,
working with this publisher, like we've learned about kind of
the way they operate behind the scenes and kind of
the company culture that I maybe might I think in
the future, might do some more pointed questions. Interest about that.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
So if you were going to give advice to a
person going that's on submission or that's about to go
on submission.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I'm currently on submission, it's hillacious.
Speaker 5 (23:08):
Oh emotionally, but do you have any It could be
practical advice, you know, or like logistical stuff or just
like how to stay sane.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
What would be your big advice.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Col Can I ask really quick, what's the hardest part
for you?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
You know, it was easy to get my agent relatively,
you know, like it happened really naturally.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I didn't have to work that hard.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Like I sent out some queries and then I met
this guy in a webinar and it was just like
I was like, oh, he's going to be my agent.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Before it even happened.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And then this just feels like so much more.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
It's like I'm further along.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
So it's like, I don't know, it means more, I
take it more. I've had some really nice region as
I had a close call. I'm about to send him
another manuscript that hopefully he can like also go out
with that too.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
But it's just I don't know, it's just hard.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Yeah, yeah, Okay. So hearing you describe that, it's making
me think of the advice that I give to my clients.
So I work with clients on their relationships, not with
writing or anything at all for the most part, but
I work with clients and there's a particular piece of
advice that I give people who are going through NRA
(24:33):
or new relationship energy, you know, so that big like butterfly,
you know, super exciting and also terrifying phase of a
new relationship. And I like to tell people head in
the clouds, feet on the ground, because so it's the
kind of thing where I think it's important to remain
hopeful and cautiously optimistic. You know, like this is actually
(24:56):
like a really precious, exciting time where you know, once
you get an offer, once it's off to the races,
you're going to be so preoccupied with so many things
and stressed out by so many things. And it's like
this is sort of like this this really special time
where we get this special mix of emotions, the terror
(25:17):
and the excitement and the hope and the despair, and
that's all like before you're even writing the dang thing
quite yet. And so I think there's something about treasuring that,
and like when you have those moments of hopefulness and excitement,
to treasure that. So that's the head in the clouds part,
and then the feet on the ground part is to
you know, make sure that you're taking care of yourself,
(25:39):
make sure that you're still moving forward with the rest
of your life and other projects, your relationships, taking care
of your body, you know, reaching out for support. You know,
if you can find support among other authors who've been
through this, like even better because most people know like
what you're going through. So yeah, I think it's kind
(25:59):
of like to find a way to nurture both of
those experiences. You know, you don't want to just crush
all your hope and just jump to being jaded and
like such a thick skin that like the good parts
of this can't penetrate you. But you also don't want
to be just like blown about in a whirlwind of
emotions every single day.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, I'm trying to like remember that the good part
is the writing or you know, like that's what I love.
And so continuing to work on this other project that
I had in progress that's like a full length manuscript
that I feel like I have more control over, is
like giving me an outlet at least to like channel
(26:41):
my energy.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
Good good good. And I don't know, it's so funny
because I'm you know, I have another book project that
I've kind of been like cooking up in the back
of my brain for like years now. I did. I
don't know if this is a typical writer thing. It
feels like a typical writer thing where when I was
working on the last manuscript, I was fantasizing about the
next one, you know, like, Oh, it'd be so much
(27:03):
more fun if I could work on project instead, Yes,
this project instead. And so I'm sort of workshopping the
concept with my agent a little bit right now. And
even going through this process twice now, I'm it's still
the same excitement and terror. It hasn't gone away. And
I guess I'm also trying to learn to like treasure
just treasure that as well. But even after this time,
(27:25):
even after having the experience, that's still there, you know,
the stakes are the stakes are still there.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Well, this has been great.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Is there anything else you want to leave listeners with
about publishing or what to expect when you're on submission.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
I saw this really funny tweet a long time ago.
I'm not going to quote it accurately, but the gist
of it was basically like, whenever someone leaves a negative
review on a book, they should be required to follow
it up by saying, but this person worked really hard
and they accomplished putting out a book, and so that's cool, right,
And so I think about, Yeah, I try to avoid
(28:01):
reading my reviews in general, but anytime a negative review
has come through, or if a rejection has come through,
I think trying to remind myself of that that it's like,
even if it's like I still wrote a freaking ninety
page proposal, or like I still am putting myself out there,
I've still done this effort, and I think that you know,
that can be a little gem to hold on to
(28:21):
in the midst of dealing with rejections in particular.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
That's great.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Thank you, thank you, Thank you so much to ded Okur,
and thank you for joining me for this episode of
The bleedersh Writing is so much better with friends.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I'm your host, Courtney Cosack.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
And hey, let's connect on social media. I am at
Courtney Kosak, last name is Kocak. I'm on Instagram, I'm
on Twitter, I'm on Blue Sky, I'm on Threads, I'm
on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Find me everywhere and make.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Sure you're signed up for The Bleeder's Companion substack for
all kinds of newsletter exclusives.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I send out awesome stuff to my.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Free list, and I also have a paid subscription where
I take you behind the scenes of all my best
bylines I've written about my return to stand up comedy,
and how I got ready to crush my showcase, my MFA,
and whether or not I think it is worth it.
I also have some mini workshops behind the paywall. There
is a link to subscribe to The Bleeder's Companion sub
(29:22):
stack in the episode description, so make sure you join
me there and join me again next week for an
all new episode.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
In the meantime, Happy Bleeding
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