July 7, 2025 • 21 mins
Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcome
Today's guest is Elle Nash, author of Animals Eat Each Other, Nudes, Gag Reflex, and Deliver Me. In this episode, Elle shares her experiences with the book publishing, including getting an agent, going on submission, receiving rejections, and ultimately landing a deal with an independent press. Elle also gets into the arbitrary nature of the publishing industry, the importance of managing expectations, and the value of staying true to one's artistic vision. Follow Elle on Instagram @saderotic.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
Today's guest is Elle Nash, author of Animals Eat Each Other, Nudes, Gag Reflex, and Deliver Me. In this episode, Elle shares her experiences with the book publishing, including getting an agent, going on submission, receiving rejections, and ultimately landing a deal with an independent press. Elle also gets into the arbitrary nature of the publishing industry, the importance of managing expectations, and the value of staying true to one's artistic vision. Follow Elle on Instagram @saderotic.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
- Start a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminar
- Land Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminar
- The Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writingworkshops.com/products/the-multi-passionate-writers-life-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocak
- How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminar
- Creating Your Podcast: https://www.roadmapwriters.com/products/creating-your-podcast-0
- Podcasting for Writers: How to Start, Sustain & Grow Your Podcast: https://writingworkshops.com/products/podcasting-for-writers-how-to-start-sustain-grow-your-podcast-4-week-zoom-workshop
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
There's nothing to writing.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed.
Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support group about
book writing and publishing.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm writer and podcaster Courtney.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Kosak, and each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors,
agents and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Hey Bleeders, Welcome to the fourth episode in our What
to Expect when You're on Submission series. Today, I am
bringing you a special monologue with l Nash. Elle is
(00:45):
an author with such a cool POV. I am absolutely
obsessed with.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Her whole ouvra.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
With an ocean between us, it was actually hard to
sync up for this conversation, so I sent Elle some
questions and had her do this interview solo, and I
actually love how it turned out. Elle opens up about
all things publishing, from all the rejection to the surprising
way she landed her agent. This is the last episode
(01:13):
in the Submission series for now, but I'm definitely gonna
do another round of interviews for this, So let me
know if you've got a great story, or you have
an author you admire who you'd like to hear from.
I want to know and In the meantime, enjoy this
episode with Elle Nash.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
It is a goodie. Hi.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
My name is al Nash, and I am the author
of the novel deliver Me from Unnamed Press. I'm also
the author of the novel Animals Eat each Other, the
novella Gag Reflex, and the short story collection Nuds. I
was agent less when Animals Eat each Other it was published,
I miraculously got a starred review in Publishers Weekly and
(01:59):
this led to a couple of agents reaching out to
me to see if I had anything else in progress.
And one of the agents I clicked with really well.
His name's Kent Wolfe, and we've been working together since
then and my novel that is coming up this October,
deliver Me, is the first novel that we will be
working together on. And so he became my agent in
twenty eighteen just for perspective, and it is now twenty
(02:22):
twenty three, and so he has worked with me through
that process of delivered Me, sort of becoming a book
and putting it on some for me and that kind
of thing, which is wonderful. So I landed it essentially
to put this in the realm of giving advice to
people is by getting attention in the literary world being
at the right place at the right time. I've heard,
(02:45):
you know, people land agents through getting stories published in
bigger magazines and stuff like that too. So just agents
are looking for those kinds of things. They're reading like
high end literary magazines, they're reading publishers weekly, you know,
they keep their eye on the news for clients and
that sort of thing. So that was really great from
me because it didn't have to go through the horrendous
(03:05):
quiring process, which I am a bit grateful for.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I'm a bit grateful for because I know, I just.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Know just through the submission process in general, that it
is just it's really you know, it's always really difficult
to do that. What were your expectations going into this process.
Did you have a realistic idea of what going on
submission means or were you mostly ignorant. So I had
a great idea of what submission meant. I knew that
it meant I could be waiting a long time. I
(03:32):
knew that it meant I was going to get a
lot of rejections. You know. It's similar to getting your
short stories out there, which is something that I have
been doing is submitting work since twenty thirteen, really seriously,
So you kind of have to develop, like steal yourself
against the rejections on every level. You know, the book
itself is your baby, and so I'm going to vibe
(03:55):
with everyone. And in fact, I would even say that
with editorship, rejection is extremely arbitrary. You know, it can
be based on how an editor is feeling that day,
if they've read five submissions that already like kind of
have the same themes as your book and they're just tired.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Of reading that.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
You know, in that moment, there's so much stuff that
goes into why someone picks something and why it resonates
with them, and so it is this very arbitrary and
you know, not every editor is going to love the
same thing. And I think what was not surprising to
me was that I had this big hope of getting
on a big press, like a you know, like a
Big five. But I kind of knew, based on some
(04:36):
of the violence in my novel that that would not happen,
and that is exactly the feedback that I got. And
you know, in that process, I was kind of just like,
you know, that's that's okay. I don't want to change
what I'm working on for this, so you know, my
work is just not meant for those places. In terms
of communicating with my agent, a lot of how we
(04:59):
talk back and forth through email.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
And it is funny.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Because you know, you'll send an email and you'll be like,
does he hate me?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Because he hasn't responded.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
But it's just as people are busy, you know, like
I'm the same, Like I have so many emails that
I just struggle to respond to you. And it doesn't
mean that I just like that person. Just means that,
you know, there's just a lot going on, especially I
think since COVID, I think it's had to be we've
had all you know, have a little patients with people.
But yeah, it's mostly over email, and sometimes I have
(05:28):
zoom calls because he lives in New York City and
I live in Glasgow, right and you know, luckily enough
when he was over for the London book where I
just happened to be in London, so.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Wait's meet up for coffee and that was really cool.
So yeah, that's mostly how we communicate. It is just
be a email.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Did your agent give you their list in advance? Did
you have any input or request in terms of publishing
houses and editors. My agent did give me a list
of places he was going to submit in advance, and
then we did a little research together on some editors
that might be good that I was looking for, as
well some places that I suggested he did not want
(06:06):
to send to you because he did not feel that
it would be a good fit. Sometimes I wonder if
that's because he's also subbing other things to these editors,
you know, and doesn't want to maybe wear stuff out.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I don't really know how it works, Like I'm not
an agent.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I don't know like how people decide, like you know,
how they work with their other clients or that kind
of thing.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
But I did have a little bit of input.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Yeah, did your research stock with the potential editors. Do
you think those valuable in any way or just crazy making?
So I did research potential editors. I looked for them online,
look for their twitters, saw what they were curating, just
to see if my work kind of resonated with what
(06:47):
they were putting out. The thing is is, like both
agents and editors, especially big houses, I think like you
have to think about where they're coming from, right, Like
they see that themselves, I would say as like literally,
taste makers are curating and also they have jobs to
do to you know, make a living, just like everyone else.
(07:08):
And so they're not just thinking about what is good
taste wise and what they love, but they also have
to think about, like what the return on something is
going to be. And so I did research them to
see like what are they publishing, what are they interested in?
Is my work going to fit into this like.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Realm, because you don't.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
You don't want to like waste your time submitting to
someone and waiting for a yes or no if you
write historical fiction and this person publishes only sci fi
or something, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So I do think it's valuable.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I think it's especially valuable for a writer to just
get familiar with the market and be realistic about it.
Like I think it is just so easy for us
to hinge on a dream and it's important to believe
in your grandeur, Like I do think it's important. But
I also think it's important to understand like the business
side of the writing world, and these are the people
(08:00):
who live in the business side. You know, an editor
who is acquiring something from oppress, they're not just acquiring
it because they love it, or they're not just saying
no because they hate it, and they're just a gatekeeper, right,
Like these are people who have jobs, like they get
salaries and they work in positions in which they are
(08:23):
basically the front line of a profit making machine, which
is the publishing industry.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Especially like if you're a Big five, a lot of
people do.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It because they love it. Yes, like this is very true.
But everybody in business, in like capitalism, they have you know, targets.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
People have targets.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
To me, they have profits to make, and so everybody
you have to think about everybody from the top down
has someone breeding down their necks saying like is this
going to hit x amount of sales? Like you know,
and they have to guess if they think something you know.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Will do that.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
You know, having worked in marketing myself, I've had to
maintain targets like hit what they call KPIs you know,
month on month and like track them, and you know,
you're at risk for you know, losing your job or
whatever if you're not like meeting these targets consistently. So
if you're an acquiring editor and the stuff you acquire
is like beautiful maybe in experimental and conceptually amazing, but
(09:17):
it's not selling, you know, that puts.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Their livelihood at risk. So there's there's all these factors right.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
In terms of like how the market works and what
they're putting out, and it's I'm not saying it's fair
or that it's right, but that is just the business
side of like how it works, at least specifically with
publishing in America, right, So I do think it's valuable.
It's important to have an understanding of that. Did you
do multiple rounds of submissions? I don't remember if I
(09:46):
did multiple rounds.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I think I did.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I think that we did one round to like all
these big presses and everyone said no, and then we
did a small round to like more indie presses, and
then one person said yes thankfully, which is unnamed press.
So I think we did do multiple rounds, and it
took about eight months overall to hear back.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Some people are really lucky.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Some people maybe they only take two weeks, you know,
which like good for them, that's amazing, But yeah, sometimes
it can just I mean, yeah, it can take a
long time. How many rejections did you get? Did your
agent provide details? On the rejections. I think for this novel,
I probably got that I know of like ten to
(10:32):
fourteen rejections, and for most of the feedback, my agent
did send me the details on them, at least maybe
the nicest parts of the rejections, which I found, by
the way, that feedback to be invaluable to understanding right
(10:52):
again how the market works, and also like kind of
what they're looking for, and it also like gave me
clues as to what really was working in my book
and some things that I could tell that they weren't
willing to take a risk on, which is like kind
of exciting in a way to think of your work
as risky in the sense that they don't know like
(11:15):
how well performing.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
It kind of makes me feel like a wild card
in a way. But he did provide me details on that,
and then just for some of the ones that were
maybe like more simple, I didn't really get the feedback
on that, which is like fine, you know, I think
so your agent has like the shield he's like protect
maybe protecting your ego a little bit, which I was like,
that's nice. Did you have any close calls or near
(11:38):
misses before your final offer, and how did you process
these almost I don't know if I had any close calls.
I think the whole thing felt like a close call
for me in the sense that I was like, I
felt like I would be capable of getting like a
big five publisher. But that's because you know, you have
to believe in your bullshit a little bit just to
keep like going. But I also was like, I'm okay,
(12:01):
I'm okay that it didn't end up that way, and
maybe even happier that I didn't end up that way
because I have had a lot of control in what
my book looks like and feels like, and how it's
going to be like marketed and the final rendition of
how it's coming out. And I have heard that with
bigger presses it's a little bit harder to get that flexibility.
So what did you do while you were on submission?
(12:27):
Did you follow the standard advice of getting started on
your next project. While my book was on submission, I
was finishing up the final touches on my short story
collection News, which came out sooner because it was with
an indie press, and getting prepared for the book tour
for that, So that was like late twenty twenty early
twenty twenty one, and then I also was finalizing my
(12:49):
novella Gag Reflex, just putting it together. I was very
busy with projects. I was very busy with projects. But interestingly,
once the book got purchased and then I moved to
Glasgow and I was working on final edits with Deliver Me,
I actually don't have like a current new project that
I am really working on, which is interesting, feel like
I should be working on the next project because Deliver
(13:10):
with Me is finally about to come out. It was
bought in twenty twenty one just for Perspective and coming
out October twenty twenty three, so it has been like
a long while. But you know, I've been marinating, I
guess marinating ideas. So yeah, while I stuff, I was,
I was definitely working on other projects just to keep busy.
And I commonly I think bounce between projects usually where
(13:34):
I would finish one thing, put it aside, and then
start something else, put it aside or give it away
for feedback, wait for that feedback, and then do something
else while it comes back to me.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
So I think.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
That's the best way to be, especially if you are anxious,
because you don't want to just spend all of your
time like thinking about it or feeling gut wrenched, like
you want to be in the work, and that's I
think the best place to be. How did you deal
with the anxiety and the uncertainty of the submission process.
(14:05):
I definitely just worked on stuff, and then a lot
of it is like you have to hope for your
best outcome, but also like learn to accept and not
beat yourself up and not say that it's about you
if you don't get what you want. So just staying busy, work, right,
you know, do it, do the thing. I mean, that's
how we do with like any kind of life anyway, right,
(14:26):
Like shit sucks, use the writing to escape it. When
I finally got my Yeah, I was actually on Booktor
in twenty twenty one for my short story collection News,
which was fun, Like it was great to like hear
that news and I'd been on submission for about eight months.
I found out via email from Kent and I didn't
(14:48):
do anything really to celebrate, but I was just so excited.
I remember I was saying in the chataw Marma in La,
which felt like really special and cool and I don't
know it was just like a nice like I just
started to feel like everything was possible for me, and
I was just so happy that someone wanted to publish
(15:08):
my book.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
So after that it was I had a phone.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Call with the editor, Olivia a couple days later.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
We talked about the book. She talked about some ideas
that she.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Had, and then we had like a rough timeline of
like what it would look like from getting edits back
to publication day, and like all these kinds of things,
the premise itself did not change from submission to publishing.
There were some things that I think that the original
editor wanted to change, and there were some things I
did change, but some scenes I really just wanted to
(15:42):
keep in even though they recommended to cut. I kind
of wanted to stay true to my vision and overall,
like the book is exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
What I wanted to be.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
I think for the most part, I had to wait
to announce it. Usually wait until the contract is actually
signed before the publisher's marketplace announcement it comes.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Out, and so that's what we did. I think it
was like six weeks.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
I did tell my friends and they were all very
excited for me, which is good.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I've always loved that.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
I haven't been supportive right of friends, it was nice
to experience it. What surprised you about the process. I
think what surprised me most is that, well, maybe it's
not so surprising, but I think one thing that is
interesting is that the publishing process just takes a long time.
(16:36):
What I do love though about working with an independent
press like Unnamed, is that they are really like in
your corner, and that feels really good, Like they want
to work with you, and they're supportive, and their vision
is amazing. I feel like they have my best interest
in mind, and that feels really good. Yeah, so that
was just like pleasant. You know, I really have enjoyed
(16:57):
my process and working with that named. It's been completely painless.
I would say my best advice to other writers who
are on submission is to steal yourself for the rejection.
You have to like simultaneously believe in your bullshit and
also not let the opinions of others like affect how
(17:19):
you feel about your work. I think as writers, it's
really easy for us to feel like we just really
need external validation to confirm what it is that we're doing.
I mean, that's why we're writing, right like the whole
process of publishing is getting external validation for something.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
That you're good at. And so when you get those.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Rejections in it feels like, you know, you get that
anxiety where like your stomach feels really tight and you're
just like fuck if I don't get this, like it
means I'm the worst, or like it could feel so bad,
and like you have to balance between wanting and needing
that validation to like push you to to publish and
work and do the work and get the best sentences
on the page and like all those kinds of things,
(18:05):
but also like not let the feedback of others tear.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
You down too much, and it maybe even in.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
A sense like use that feedback to drive you, you know,
to help you clarify and sharpen your vision about what
it is that you want to be putting out into
the world. I think that's one thing that has really
helped me about this process, because, you know, when I
had some one of the editors come back and say, like,
(18:31):
I think we should cut this scene. I think we
should do this because it's too X, y Z or
what have you. I did deliberate for a long time
thinking is this right, will I get less readership or
will people think a certain way if this scene is
in this book.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And there's a part of me that's like, I want
the widest readership possible. But then there's this other part.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Of me that's like, but I'm also doing this specific
thing in the book for a reason, and there's a
reason why I want to put this out in the world,
and I don't want to feel like I have sacrificed though,
you know, or given that up for something too, like
I want to stay true to myself.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
It felt like a very fine line to walk, but
ultimately where I came down to you on it was
that I want to stay true to like my own work.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
You have to like not have a big head.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
About it, right, Like it's fine if someone disagrees with
like how you want your art to be, especially an editor,
but it's also fine to like push back if it's
something that.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
You really believe in and you really want.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I think that's been the experience for me, and it's
helped me understand more about the art that I'm making
and like the realms that I want to explore where
I want to go with my work.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
So that whole.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Part of the submission process has been really helpful.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Thank you so much to Elle, and thank you for
joining me for this episode of The Bleeders. Oh, writing
is so much better with friends. I'm your host, Courtney Cosack,
and hey, let's connect on social media. I am at
Courtney Kosak last name koc on all of the socials, Twitter, Instagram,
(20:04):
Blue Sky, Threads, TikTok, and make sure you're signed up
for the Bleeder's Companion substack for all kinds of newsletter exclusives.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
There is a link in the episode description for that.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I send out one awesome post to my free subscribers
every week, and I also have a paid subscription where
I take you behind the scenes of all my best bylines.
I've written about my return to stand up comedy and
how I got ready to crush my showcase, my MFA
and whether or not I think it is worth it.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
I also have some mini workshops behind the paywall.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
So again there is a link in the episode description
that will take you right to the Bleeder's Companion Substack.
I hope you joined me over there, and I hope
you joined me back here again next week for another
awesome episode in the meantime, happy bleeding
There's nothing to writing.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed.
Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support group about
book writing and publishing.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm writer and podcaster Courtney.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Kosak, and each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors,
agents and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Hey Bleeders, Welcome to the fourth episode in our What
to Expect when You're on Submission series. Today, I am
bringing you a special monologue with l Nash. Elle is
(00:45):
an author with such a cool POV. I am absolutely
obsessed with.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Her whole ouvra.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
With an ocean between us, it was actually hard to
sync up for this conversation, so I sent Elle some
questions and had her do this interview solo, and I
actually love how it turned out. Elle opens up about
all things publishing, from all the rejection to the surprising
way she landed her agent. This is the last episode
(01:13):
in the Submission series for now, but I'm definitely gonna
do another round of interviews for this, So let me
know if you've got a great story, or you have
an author you admire who you'd like to hear from.
I want to know and In the meantime, enjoy this
episode with Elle Nash.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
It is a goodie. Hi.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
My name is al Nash, and I am the author
of the novel deliver Me from Unnamed Press. I'm also
the author of the novel Animals Eat each Other, the
novella Gag Reflex, and the short story collection Nuds. I
was agent less when Animals Eat each Other it was published,
I miraculously got a starred review in Publishers Weekly and
(01:59):
this led to a couple of agents reaching out to
me to see if I had anything else in progress.
And one of the agents I clicked with really well.
His name's Kent Wolfe, and we've been working together since
then and my novel that is coming up this October,
deliver Me, is the first novel that we will be
working together on. And so he became my agent in
twenty eighteen just for perspective, and it is now twenty
(02:22):
twenty three, and so he has worked with me through
that process of delivered Me, sort of becoming a book
and putting it on some for me and that kind
of thing, which is wonderful. So I landed it essentially
to put this in the realm of giving advice to
people is by getting attention in the literary world being
at the right place at the right time. I've heard,
(02:45):
you know, people land agents through getting stories published in
bigger magazines and stuff like that too. So just agents
are looking for those kinds of things. They're reading like
high end literary magazines, they're reading publishers weekly, you know,
they keep their eye on the news for clients and
that sort of thing. So that was really great from
me because it didn't have to go through the horrendous
(03:05):
quiring process, which I am a bit grateful for.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I'm a bit grateful for because I know, I just.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Know just through the submission process in general, that it
is just it's really you know, it's always really difficult
to do that. What were your expectations going into this process.
Did you have a realistic idea of what going on
submission means or were you mostly ignorant. So I had
a great idea of what submission meant. I knew that
it meant I could be waiting a long time. I
(03:32):
knew that it meant I was going to get a
lot of rejections. You know. It's similar to getting your
short stories out there, which is something that I have
been doing is submitting work since twenty thirteen, really seriously,
So you kind of have to develop, like steal yourself
against the rejections on every level. You know, the book
itself is your baby, and so I'm going to vibe
(03:55):
with everyone. And in fact, I would even say that
with editorship, rejection is extremely arbitrary. You know, it can
be based on how an editor is feeling that day,
if they've read five submissions that already like kind of
have the same themes as your book and they're just tired.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Of reading that.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
You know, in that moment, there's so much stuff that
goes into why someone picks something and why it resonates
with them, and so it is this very arbitrary and
you know, not every editor is going to love the
same thing. And I think what was not surprising to
me was that I had this big hope of getting
on a big press, like a you know, like a
Big five. But I kind of knew, based on some
(04:36):
of the violence in my novel that that would not happen,
and that is exactly the feedback that I got. And
you know, in that process, I was kind of just like,
you know, that's that's okay. I don't want to change
what I'm working on for this, so you know, my
work is just not meant for those places. In terms
of communicating with my agent, a lot of how we
(04:59):
talk back and forth through email.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
And it is funny.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Because you know, you'll send an email and you'll be like,
does he hate me?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Because he hasn't responded.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
But it's just as people are busy, you know, like
I'm the same, Like I have so many emails that
I just struggle to respond to you. And it doesn't
mean that I just like that person. Just means that,
you know, there's just a lot going on, especially I
think since COVID, I think it's had to be we've
had all you know, have a little patients with people.
But yeah, it's mostly over email, and sometimes I have
(05:28):
zoom calls because he lives in New York City and
I live in Glasgow, right and you know, luckily enough
when he was over for the London book where I
just happened to be in London, so.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Wait's meet up for coffee and that was really cool.
So yeah, that's mostly how we communicate. It is just
be a email.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Did your agent give you their list in advance? Did
you have any input or request in terms of publishing
houses and editors. My agent did give me a list
of places he was going to submit in advance, and
then we did a little research together on some editors
that might be good that I was looking for, as
well some places that I suggested he did not want
(06:06):
to send to you because he did not feel that
it would be a good fit. Sometimes I wonder if
that's because he's also subbing other things to these editors,
you know, and doesn't want to maybe wear stuff out.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I don't really know how it works, Like I'm not
an agent.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I don't know like how people decide, like you know,
how they work with their other clients or that kind
of thing.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
But I did have a little bit of input.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Yeah, did your research stock with the potential editors. Do
you think those valuable in any way or just crazy making?
So I did research potential editors. I looked for them online,
look for their twitters, saw what they were curating, just
to see if my work kind of resonated with what
(06:47):
they were putting out. The thing is is, like both
agents and editors, especially big houses, I think like you
have to think about where they're coming from, right, Like
they see that themselves, I would say as like literally,
taste makers are curating and also they have jobs to
do to you know, make a living, just like everyone else.
(07:08):
And so they're not just thinking about what is good
taste wise and what they love, but they also have
to think about, like what the return on something is
going to be. And so I did research them to
see like what are they publishing, what are they interested in?
Is my work going to fit into this like.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Realm, because you don't.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
You don't want to like waste your time submitting to
someone and waiting for a yes or no if you
write historical fiction and this person publishes only sci fi
or something, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So I do think it's valuable.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I think it's especially valuable for a writer to just
get familiar with the market and be realistic about it.
Like I think it is just so easy for us
to hinge on a dream and it's important to believe
in your grandeur, Like I do think it's important. But
I also think it's important to understand like the business
side of the writing world, and these are the people
(08:00):
who live in the business side. You know, an editor
who is acquiring something from oppress, they're not just acquiring
it because they love it, or they're not just saying
no because they hate it, and they're just a gatekeeper, right,
Like these are people who have jobs, like they get
salaries and they work in positions in which they are
(08:23):
basically the front line of a profit making machine, which
is the publishing industry.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Especially like if you're a Big five, a lot of
people do.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It because they love it. Yes, like this is very true.
But everybody in business, in like capitalism, they have you know, targets.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
People have targets.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
To me, they have profits to make, and so everybody
you have to think about everybody from the top down
has someone breeding down their necks saying like is this
going to hit x amount of sales? Like you know,
and they have to guess if they think something you know.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Will do that.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
You know, having worked in marketing myself, I've had to
maintain targets like hit what they call KPIs you know,
month on month and like track them, and you know,
you're at risk for you know, losing your job or
whatever if you're not like meeting these targets consistently. So
if you're an acquiring editor and the stuff you acquire
is like beautiful maybe in experimental and conceptually amazing, but
(09:17):
it's not selling, you know, that puts.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Their livelihood at risk. So there's there's all these factors right.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
In terms of like how the market works and what
they're putting out, and it's I'm not saying it's fair
or that it's right, but that is just the business
side of like how it works, at least specifically with
publishing in America, right, So I do think it's valuable.
It's important to have an understanding of that. Did you
do multiple rounds of submissions? I don't remember if I
(09:46):
did multiple rounds.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I think I did.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I think that we did one round to like all
these big presses and everyone said no, and then we
did a small round to like more indie presses, and
then one person said yes thankfully, which is unnamed press.
So I think we did do multiple rounds, and it
took about eight months overall to hear back.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Some people are really lucky.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Some people maybe they only take two weeks, you know,
which like good for them, that's amazing, But yeah, sometimes
it can just I mean, yeah, it can take a
long time. How many rejections did you get? Did your
agent provide details? On the rejections. I think for this novel,
I probably got that I know of like ten to
(10:32):
fourteen rejections, and for most of the feedback, my agent
did send me the details on them, at least maybe
the nicest parts of the rejections, which I found, by
the way, that feedback to be invaluable to understanding right
(10:52):
again how the market works, and also like kind of
what they're looking for, and it also like gave me
clues as to what really was working in my book
and some things that I could tell that they weren't
willing to take a risk on, which is like kind
of exciting in a way to think of your work
as risky in the sense that they don't know like
(11:15):
how well performing.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
It kind of makes me feel like a wild card
in a way. But he did provide me details on that,
and then just for some of the ones that were
maybe like more simple, I didn't really get the feedback
on that, which is like fine, you know, I think
so your agent has like the shield he's like protect
maybe protecting your ego a little bit, which I was like,
that's nice. Did you have any close calls or near
(11:38):
misses before your final offer, and how did you process
these almost I don't know if I had any close calls.
I think the whole thing felt like a close call
for me in the sense that I was like, I
felt like I would be capable of getting like a
big five publisher. But that's because you know, you have
to believe in your bullshit a little bit just to
keep like going. But I also was like, I'm okay,
(12:01):
I'm okay that it didn't end up that way, and
maybe even happier that I didn't end up that way
because I have had a lot of control in what
my book looks like and feels like, and how it's
going to be like marketed and the final rendition of
how it's coming out. And I have heard that with
bigger presses it's a little bit harder to get that flexibility.
So what did you do while you were on submission?
(12:27):
Did you follow the standard advice of getting started on
your next project. While my book was on submission, I
was finishing up the final touches on my short story
collection News, which came out sooner because it was with
an indie press, and getting prepared for the book tour
for that, So that was like late twenty twenty early
twenty twenty one, and then I also was finalizing my
(12:49):
novella Gag Reflex, just putting it together. I was very
busy with projects. I was very busy with projects. But interestingly,
once the book got purchased and then I moved to
Glasgow and I was working on final edits with Deliver Me,
I actually don't have like a current new project that
I am really working on, which is interesting, feel like
I should be working on the next project because Deliver
(13:10):
with Me is finally about to come out. It was
bought in twenty twenty one just for Perspective and coming
out October twenty twenty three, so it has been like
a long while. But you know, I've been marinating, I
guess marinating ideas. So yeah, while I stuff, I was,
I was definitely working on other projects just to keep busy.
And I commonly I think bounce between projects usually where
(13:34):
I would finish one thing, put it aside, and then
start something else, put it aside or give it away
for feedback, wait for that feedback, and then do something
else while it comes back to me.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
So I think.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
That's the best way to be, especially if you are anxious,
because you don't want to just spend all of your
time like thinking about it or feeling gut wrenched, like
you want to be in the work, and that's I
think the best place to be. How did you deal
with the anxiety and the uncertainty of the submission process.
(14:05):
I definitely just worked on stuff, and then a lot
of it is like you have to hope for your
best outcome, but also like learn to accept and not
beat yourself up and not say that it's about you
if you don't get what you want. So just staying busy, work, right,
you know, do it, do the thing. I mean, that's
how we do with like any kind of life anyway, right,
(14:26):
Like shit sucks, use the writing to escape it. When
I finally got my Yeah, I was actually on Booktor
in twenty twenty one for my short story collection News,
which was fun, Like it was great to like hear
that news and I'd been on submission for about eight months.
I found out via email from Kent and I didn't
(14:48):
do anything really to celebrate, but I was just so excited.
I remember I was saying in the chataw Marma in La,
which felt like really special and cool and I don't
know it was just like a nice like I just
started to feel like everything was possible for me, and
I was just so happy that someone wanted to publish
(15:08):
my book.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
So after that it was I had a phone.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Call with the editor, Olivia a couple days later.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
We talked about the book. She talked about some ideas
that she.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Had, and then we had like a rough timeline of
like what it would look like from getting edits back
to publication day, and like all these kinds of things,
the premise itself did not change from submission to publishing.
There were some things that I think that the original
editor wanted to change, and there were some things I
did change, but some scenes I really just wanted to
(15:42):
keep in even though they recommended to cut. I kind
of wanted to stay true to my vision and overall,
like the book is exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
What I wanted to be.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
I think for the most part, I had to wait
to announce it. Usually wait until the contract is actually
signed before the publisher's marketplace announcement it comes.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Out, and so that's what we did. I think it
was like six weeks.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
I did tell my friends and they were all very
excited for me, which is good.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I've always loved that.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
I haven't been supportive right of friends, it was nice
to experience it. What surprised you about the process. I
think what surprised me most is that, well, maybe it's
not so surprising, but I think one thing that is
interesting is that the publishing process just takes a long time.
(16:36):
What I do love though about working with an independent
press like Unnamed, is that they are really like in
your corner, and that feels really good, Like they want
to work with you, and they're supportive, and their vision
is amazing. I feel like they have my best interest
in mind, and that feels really good. Yeah, so that
was just like pleasant. You know, I really have enjoyed
(16:57):
my process and working with that named. It's been completely painless.
I would say my best advice to other writers who
are on submission is to steal yourself for the rejection.
You have to like simultaneously believe in your bullshit and
also not let the opinions of others like affect how
(17:19):
you feel about your work. I think as writers, it's
really easy for us to feel like we just really
need external validation to confirm what it is that we're doing.
I mean, that's why we're writing, right like the whole
process of publishing is getting external validation for something.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
That you're good at. And so when you get those.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Rejections in it feels like, you know, you get that
anxiety where like your stomach feels really tight and you're
just like fuck if I don't get this, like it
means I'm the worst, or like it could feel so bad,
and like you have to balance between wanting and needing
that validation to like push you to to publish and
work and do the work and get the best sentences
on the page and like all those kinds of things,
(18:05):
but also like not let the feedback of others tear.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
You down too much, and it maybe even in.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
A sense like use that feedback to drive you, you know,
to help you clarify and sharpen your vision about what
it is that you want to be putting out into
the world. I think that's one thing that has really
helped me about this process, because, you know, when I
had some one of the editors come back and say, like,
(18:31):
I think we should cut this scene. I think we
should do this because it's too X, y Z or
what have you. I did deliberate for a long time
thinking is this right, will I get less readership or
will people think a certain way if this scene is
in this book.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And there's a part of me that's like, I want
the widest readership possible. But then there's this other part.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Of me that's like, but I'm also doing this specific
thing in the book for a reason, and there's a
reason why I want to put this out in the world,
and I don't want to feel like I have sacrificed though,
you know, or given that up for something too, like
I want to stay true to myself.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
It felt like a very fine line to walk, but
ultimately where I came down to you on it was
that I want to stay true to like my own work.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
You have to like not have a big head.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
About it, right, Like it's fine if someone disagrees with
like how you want your art to be, especially an editor,
but it's also fine to like push back if it's
something that.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
You really believe in and you really want.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I think that's been the experience for me, and it's
helped me understand more about the art that I'm making
and like the realms that I want to explore where
I want to go with my work.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
So that whole.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Part of the submission process has been really helpful.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Thank you so much to Elle, and thank you for
joining me for this episode of The Bleeders. Oh, writing
is so much better with friends. I'm your host, Courtney Cosack,
and hey, let's connect on social media. I am at
Courtney Kosak last name koc on all of the socials, Twitter, Instagram,
(20:04):
Blue Sky, Threads, TikTok, and make sure you're signed up
for the Bleeder's Companion substack for all kinds of newsletter exclusives.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
There is a link in the episode description for that.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I send out one awesome post to my free subscribers
every week, and I also have a paid subscription where
I take you behind the scenes of all my best bylines.
I've written about my return to stand up comedy and
how I got ready to crush my showcase, my MFA
and whether or not I think it is worth it.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
I also have some mini workshops behind the paywall.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
So again there is a link in the episode description
that will take you right to the Bleeder's Companion Substack.
I hope you joined me over there, and I hope
you joined me back here again next week for another
awesome episode in the meantime, happy bleeding
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