April 14, 2025 • 27 mins
Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcome
Today's guest Elle Griffin set out to query her gothic novel and, in the process, made some disappointing discoveries about the publishing industry that led her to serialize it on Substack. In this episode from the archives, Elle shares her journey down this unconventional path that definitely has some upsides, like making $19K her first year on Substack and retaining the rights to her work. Elle also explains why Anne Lamott's shitty first draft advice does not work for her, what it's been like writing her second serialized novel as she's publishing it, and more. Elle is the author of the gothic novel Obscurity and the utopian novel called Oblivion. Subscribe to Elle's Substack, The Elysian, which has gone through a rebrand since we spoke.
*If you're an aspiring or indie podcaster, subscribe to the Podcast Bestie Substack: https://podcastbestie.substack.com/welcome
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
Today's guest Elle Griffin set out to query her gothic novel and, in the process, made some disappointing discoveries about the publishing industry that led her to serialize it on Substack. In this episode from the archives, Elle shares her journey down this unconventional path that definitely has some upsides, like making $19K her first year on Substack and retaining the rights to her work. Elle also explains why Anne Lamott's shitty first draft advice does not work for her, what it's been like writing her second serialized novel as she's publishing it, and more. Elle is the author of the gothic novel Obscurity and the utopian novel called Oblivion. Subscribe to Elle's Substack, The Elysian, which has gone through a rebrand since we spoke.
*If you're an aspiring or indie podcaster, subscribe to the Podcast Bestie Substack: https://podcastbestie.substack.com/welcome
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
- Land Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminar
- The Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writingworkshops.com/products/the-multi-passionate-writers-life-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocak
- How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminar
- Podcasting for Writers: How to Start, Sustain & Grow Your Podcast: https://writingworkshops.com/products/podcasting-for-writers-how-to-start-sustain-grow-your-podcast-4-week-zoom-workshop
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
I wrote a gothic novel, and then I tried to
go to the traditional route. I sent it to more
than one hundred agents, got more than fifty rejections, and
then the rest just ghosted. And then kind of as
I was going through that process, I was like researching
how to publish books and kind of what my options were,
and realized that there was like a very obvious reason
why no agent would want my book.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
El Griffin set out to query her gothic novel and
made some disappointing discoveries about the publishing industry in the
process that led her to serialize it on substack. Today,
She's going to take us down this unconventional path that
definitely has some upsides.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I mean, like Taylor Swift is re recording all of
her old albums right now because the venture capitalist firm
owns her masters and she can't even like can't even
do what she wants to, Like they wouldn't even let
her perform her old songs at like a festivals she
wanted to. Why would you want to lock your art
away with somebody who could do anything that they want
to it to try to make money and you have
(01:08):
no control over it. Anymore and in fact, only get
fifteen percent of the royalties.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Elle also shares why Anne LaMotte's shitty first draft advice
does not work for her, what it's been like writing
her second serialized novel as she's publishing it, and more
in today's episode, There's nothing to writing. All you do
is sit down at a typewriter.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
And bleed.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support group about
book writing and publishing. I'm writer and podcaster Courtney Cosack,
and each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors, agents,
and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Hi. I'm El Griffin, and I am the author of
a sub sec newsletter called The Novelist, where I published
serial novels. My first one was Obscurity, a gothic novel
I serialized in twenty twenty one, and now I am
publishing Oblivion, a utopian novel I am serializing.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Now, when did you first identify as a writer.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Professionally? Not until like probably five years ago, maybe six
or six years ago. But I wrote like a blog
for fun, always, like since right out of college. It
was always like a side thing that I did. So
it was but I never thought of it as a career.
It was just like a fun hop.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I guess did you think as a career it was
like possible.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Do you know what I mean? No, I do not
think it was possible at all.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
What's your all time favorite book? Lima's Rob Oh, Okay,
when did you read it and what do you love
about it? I read it in like twenty seventeen, and
I just think it's like one of the most beautiful,
most philosophically complex characters like Jean Valjean is this kind
(03:11):
of character who spends his entire life trying to be
good and like doesn't realize until it's like his deathbed
that he is good, and even that he like always
has been. I don't know, It's just like a very
beautiful story. Had you seen the musical first?
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yes? That was my first Broadway musical when I was
like in seventh grade, and that's what spurred my love
of Broadway musicals. So it's like kind of crazy because
then later it became my favorite book and also just
is what inspired me to write my own novels.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
So oh awesome. Okay, what's your dream writing routine?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Just wake up in the morning, have some tea and
a croissant and write. I could probably only write till
likenwone or something and then I need to be done.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Is there music are you? Are you just zoned in?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I don't listen to music unless like my husband's on
a conference call or something, and then I will like
my ear pods in.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
To round him out.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, And then what does your real writing routine look like?
And I saw you have like a sub stack where
you kind of go into your ritual, which is really cool.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, it's basically the same, except I stop at nine
because then I have a day job.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
What's one piece of writing that makes you jealous? You
didn't write it?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Why, miss Rob, I need.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
To read that. I love the musical so much.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, just as beautiful, if not more.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Okay, so let's dive into I became familiar with your
work through substack, like I think probably a lot of
people in your sphere have, and it's such a cool journey.
So I just kind of want to dive into. You
have two novels right now and one that has already
(04:57):
kind of been serialized in full and more in process.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Is that correct exactly?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So I guess start with the first Obscurity was your
first one?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yes, Yeah, I wrote a gothic novel, and then I
tried to go the traditional route. I sent it to
more than one hundred agents, got more than fifty rejections,
and then the rest just ghosted. And then kind of
as I was going through that process, I was like
researching how to publish books and kind of what my
options were, and realized that there was like a very
obvious reason why no agent would want my book, and
(05:30):
that's because it was a gothic novel that probably best
comped with one hundred year old books like they Miss
Rob and The Kind of Money Crysto and a Christmas Carol,
and so I was like, well, this probably has a
niche audience more than anything. And that's when I started
looking at all the research about the creator economy, looking
into like Patreon and all these other options, and ultimately
(05:51):
landed on Substack. So I published it on substack, one
chapter at a time, and kind of while I was
doing that, documented my process in real time and kind
of how it was working for me. Like when I
started on substack, there were only other like eight other
fiction writers on the platform, and most of them were
doing short stories. Now there's like a million.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So when did you first start?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Well, my subjects started in February of twenty twenty one,
and then my novel started in September of twenty twenty one,
so I like did a ramp up period try to
like grow a subscriber base first.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So was that your first novel that you had attempted
to write.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I attempted to write another one when I was in
my twenties. I wrote like a young adult fantasy novel.
But it was I was like following that advice I had,
like read some book that said You're supposed to write
like a crappy first draft first and then make it
perfect in the second draft. But like the first draft
was so bad and I hated it so much that
it was just I hated it. It was just like
no worth trying to resurrect and like rewrite the whole thing,
(06:56):
like the leaven. The flaw was bad. So I was like, Okay,
I'm going to try this again and start over, and
this time I'm going to write the way like I
write journalism, which is just like one perfect paragraph, then
another perfect paragraph until like my done. And so that's
what I did. But the second novel.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
How long did that process take you, like writing it,
you know, quote unquote kind of perfectly, did you still
have to go back and like do another pass? And
how long did it take?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
It took me two years to write it, and then
I thought I was just going to be done with it.
But then I had my dad read it, and the
way that I had written it was chronologically. So originally
I had written it like, here's this woman in Paris
and she like joins the convent and then she comes
to New Orleans. But my dad was like, the New
(07:49):
Orleans part is like where things get really juicy. I
feel like you should like start there. So I started
to cut the whole Paris part and then insert it
like her whole like back story as like flashbacks. So
we start with her writing in New Orleans and then
flash back to her past in Paris from time to time.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Oh okay, cool. So yeah, let's dive into that querying process.
You said you went out to one hundred people. What
was your strategy going in and what did you learn
from it aside from I want to go to substack.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Well, I think the turning point was when I was
trying to research, like, okay, how is this even going
to work? I knew nothing about the publishing industry, right,
and so I like researched this article that I called
no One will read Your Book and just shared like
a bunch of stats about the publishing industry. And then
(08:47):
I had a follow up post called why writing books
isn't a good idea, and it basically what I learned
is that even among traditionally published books, so like, say
I do get an agent, say I do get a
publishing house, like a publishing house like top of the Top,
then I'm still looking at it's two hundred and sixty
eight books. Only two hundred and sixty eight books sell
(09:08):
more than one hundred thousand copies in a year, which
is like nothing like if you look at the top
But if you look at the top ten books in
the world and see what they're selling, like one hundred
thousand copies, like that's silly compared to like the top
ten movies that they're saying like seeing millions and millions.
So I was just like, this is kind of like
a dying art. And then you know ninety six percent
(09:29):
of books sell less than one thousand copies. So I
was like, even if I traditionally publish and they get
seventy five percent of my royalties. I'm still going to
sell a thousand copies and make zero money. It just
seems silly. I would be better off just trying to
like build a following for my own work and like
trying to monetize it directly. And so when I started
(09:50):
my newsletter, that was my intent was to grow like
a newsletter following. And then however I published my book,
whether it was on Amazon or whatever, at least I
would have an audience for it that I could sell
it to. But then in the process of like creating
that and started to build some kind of hype on
subs deck, then I was like, Okay, I'll just publish
it here. And this is in fact, how a lot
(10:10):
of people used to publish books, including my favorite Dollars
so oh, through magazines, right, yeah, through magazines and newspapers.
So you know the Kadamni Cristo is a serial. Alexander
Dumas published in a local newspaper and he did it
in like eighteen installments, and I started like looking into
his story and realizing that he made sixty four thousand
(10:32):
dollars like in today's dollars per installment. What yeah, so
he's like because it's over time, Like if you can
imagine how much money a television show generates versus a
movie because it's continually coming out, right, this is a
better model. I think I'd rather have subscribers than like
a one time sale for ten dollars.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
So, you know, what is so interesting about your story
is that most people go through the querying process and
their big takeaway I think if they don't get anywhere
is like I suck or like you know what I mean,
or you know, they take the rejection personally, and I
love that your take on it was just like, oh no,
(11:13):
let me think about this logically, Actually the problem is
with them, and you really like took it into your
own hands and made it work. So okay. Then doing
it on substack, what was the response and what did
you learn from that part?
Speaker 1 (11:30):
It was kind of interesting because the original way that
I planned it was my newsletter was free and my
novel chapters were paid subscription, which is a very stupid
way to do that, because I had like two hundred
and fifty paid subscribers or something, so that was like
the maximum amount of people that could read my book,
and then I had way more than that newsletter subscribers,
(11:52):
and what they were really valuing was like the newsletter
portion of like my behind the scenes journey. And also
I wrote the book for to be traditionally published, so
it's very like slow and creeping and just like gently
haunting the whole way through, so it's not really like
great for a serial format. So I definitely changed that
(12:13):
around this year when I debuted my second novel, Oblivion,
and all of my chapters are super short. They're you know,
less than five hundred words. There's a hook at the
end of every single one to keep you interested, and
then they're free, so any of my subscribers, all my
subscribers will get them. And then the thing that I
charge for now is like I'll have some author commentary
(12:35):
at the bottom of a chapter if they want to
learn like my influences for it, and they have to
pay if you want to comment on them as well,
So like my paid subscribers will get in and like
comment on it and be like, oh, I'm really interested
in this character. I can't wait to see where that goes.
So it's like now I feel like designing the writing
for the platform is much better and it's much more engaging,
(12:55):
and people are part of the process, and I'm writing
it live, so I could change how much my next
chapter turns out on the fly. So it's much more
like of a collaborative thing this time around.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Oh you're writing it live. Yeah, oh fun. Yeah yeah,
you can be super like responsive and kind of learn
as you go to That is so interesting. It is
very true, like people will pay for craft more than
they will pay for entertainment. And also part of it's
just like how we've been conditioned because you would think, yes,
(13:30):
I'm going to put my book behind the paywall, but
right yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Well even if you think about it, that's just not
how art works right now, Like you'll pay ten dollars
to read like the Da Vinci Code, but if you're
a writer, you might pay one hundred and eighty dollars
to watch Dan Brown do a masterclass on how he
wrote the Da Vinci Code and like how he got
it published. So I just that's kind of the take
that I'm I'm playing with my newsletter is like all
(13:55):
my art is free for you to be a patron of,
but the like hind the scenes and like how it's made,
and how it's working is like, pay it now.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
That's so interesting. Yeah, I have another newsletter. I have
one for bleeders this podcast, but I have a newsletter
for podcasters and it's not monetized yet, but I'm approaching
the one your anniversary and will soon and I'm like, oh,
this is actually a better business than the podcast that
I make.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
That's hilarious about podcasting, absolutely, because everyone's like, how do
I do this?
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
You did. Hey.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
So this is a not so subtle plug for my
other newsletter. It's called podcast Bestie, and it's full of
podcasting tips and tricks for aspiring and indie podcasters. So
if you have a podcast or you're thinking about starting one,
check out the link in this episode description and join
the squad. Okay, so now you have a second novel
(15:00):
in progress. It's a utopian novel. Tell us a little
bit about that.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, Oblivion is a utopian novel and I'm writing there's
two parts to it. I'm like doing all of the
research for it in non nonfiction form, so I'm writing
these essays imagining a more beautiful future, and then I'm
like using that research to write my fiction chapters and
it's about every other week. So one Monday, I might
(15:26):
have an article that's called we Won't Need Doctors in
the future, and here's all my research on that, and
then the next week it's chapter one, and then you know,
it kind of goes from there. So it's been really
fun because on the subtec app there's this new section
called subdec Chat, and you can have like daily conversations
with news letter subscribers, and we've just been like geeking
(15:46):
out in there, sharing all this like utopian content and
like what books everybody's reading, and would this kind of
government work or would this kind of city be the
most beautiful? And it's just been kind of fun to
like do all the brainstorming collaborative and then what comes
from that is the art. So it's been fun.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Oh my god, that's amazing and like the perfect antidote
to the constant dystopia that we live in.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yes, we need topia novels so we can imagine something better.
It's horrible that we only have the negative way things.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Could go totally totally. What have you learned about yourself
or your writing process while working on both of these projects.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Well, it's interesting because it's so different from you know,
I'm like a journalist by profession, and that is all
about generating page views, you know, because that's where advertisers advertise,
and like journalism is very much fact based, like all
of these things have to be facts and they have
(16:55):
to back up able. And then there's writing a blog
where you don't have to have any facts or anything,
and it's like kind of about your life and you
can just write whatever you want and it can take
you can not capitalize your eyes if you want, and
it just so there's no rules. So when I first
created my substeck, I was like, okay, there's I want
this to be no rules, Like this is where I
(17:15):
can have fun and be creative. And that has been
really fun because I've done so many weird things with
my substeck, and I just think it's like I think
it's really fun to explore and just try different things.
And like after this book, like the first book was
really fun. It was like, oh, I'm serializing a gothic
novel in the vein of all gothic novelists. And then
(17:37):
this time it's like, oh, I'm writing a utopian novel
and imagining a more beautiful feature and then like after this,
I kind of want to just do like, I want
to get into fan fiction and like write a fan
fiction to be really fun, which I could do using
my current model and keep it free and monetize the
other part of my newsletter. So I think there's like
I think there's just so many amazing things you could
do with it, which I think is just fun to explore.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, oh, I saw an article on your or I
read an article about fanfic and copyrights. Oh yeah, so
is that were you like brainstorming when you wrote that?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, totally, because I think right now fan fiction is
super niche and you have to be like into like
AO three and fanfiction dot net and like these kind
of obscure sites, and there are a lot of people
that use those. But I think it'd be really fun
to do in a substack format. Yeah, it would just
get more exposure and I think be really I don't know,
(18:34):
it'd be really interesting in people that already follow those works.
So I think it'd be fun. And yeah, you have
to be able to do it in a legal way
because otherwise you could get totally screwed over. But our
way to do it legally.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
As a substacker and for any substackers listening, like, do
you have one kind of piece of advice that you
would you would dispense.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah. When I was first starting out, I interviewed a
lot of authors who were already serializing fiction online. And
those included people who were doing it on Patreon or
people who are doing it on a Walpad or doing
it on a Royal Road. And the interesting thing is
everybody had the same response for how they grew their audience,
And it was like they were just so obsessed with
(19:18):
that platform and they were already reading there and interacting
there and engaging with other people's work there. But by
the time they were already starting their own work on
the platform, they were like a very in meshed community member.
And I think that is that works with substack, just
as it does on any other platform. Like you see
a lot of people saying, Oh, my subsec's going nowhere,
my subsects going nowhere, and like, do you read on subtac,
(19:40):
are you compnding on other substecs? Are you like an
active participant on the newsletters you follow? Because that's how
you find people, and that's how you find your people.
And now a lot of the subscribers that subscribe to
my newsletter. I'm also subscribed to their newsletter, and we're like,
we know each other. We've been commenting on each other's
stuff for a year now. Well, you have to kind
(20:01):
of develop that core community wherever you are.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
That's really good advice. You do not have to answer
this if you don't want to, But just like, how
is it going? Are you able to kind of replace
some of your income?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Well? No, I earned nineteen thousand dollars from my first
year on the platform. A little bit more than that,
I'm I have to pult the number.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
That's a good chunk though, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
So pretty good for a year one on the platform
and that, you know, nineteen thousand dollars from only like
two hundred and eighty people is kind of insane, so
that the idea have a small number of people patronizing
their patronizing is not where we'reing. I don't know. Yeah,
your work is cool, and I feel like that. I
(20:47):
do want to see if I can take that further,
But I like, my job is a full time job,
so it's not like I could just like replace half
of it and do my job way. So I kind
of can't really do that until I'm like making a
full time living from Sudstock, which probably would take a
couple more years.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Well, hoping you get there soon. Yeah, it's so such
a cool platform. I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
It's so fun.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
So looking forward, you are going to write this fanfic,
do you have any bucket list writing goals?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, that's probably the next one. I don't really have
any outside of that, I've thought. I've been recently somebody
said something to me that made me think that my
my goals weren't big enough. I wasn't like dreaming big.
So I was like, Okay, I need to like come
up with bigger goals. So I decided to do this
exercise where I would like write my own Wikipedia page.
(21:41):
So I've been like writing that right now and trying
to see like what what I wanted to say about me.
And one thing I was thinking is like, oh, well,
if I'm like the sky's the limit, then yeah, like okay,
oblivion becomes a series on HBO and there's a you know,
maybe I'm part of writing this and maybe maybe I
(22:02):
can even have a bit part in it, like why not?
And well yeah, yeah, And so I've kind of thought
about that. Things like that that would be really fun.
I'm collabbing with this guy, I'm Matt, who has a
subjac fog Chaser. He's been writing music to go with
my novel chapters, and they're like, they sound like the book.
They're just so beautiful and meditative and calming and gorgeous.
(22:24):
And so we've been like talking about maybe making an album,
which would be kind of fun. And so there's a
lot of other ways that I want to use my
writing skills that I think would be fun. But it's
kind of like first things first, and then we'll see
where we can go.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, okay, cool. What is one piece of writing advice
you wish you could give your former self?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
It's hard because my former self there wasn't really great
opportunities for writers. I feel like only subac only really
came about in the last couple of years, and before
that it was like a word press blog which I had, Medium, which.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I had great. No notes.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Like if you're starting now, just like build a platform
for yourself. But yeah, former self, there weren't great options
out there for being a writer.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Fair enough. One tip for writers trying to get a
book published, don't are you just done with like you
know it's not on your bucket list? Do you have
any traditional publishing goals at this point?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I mean, like Taylor Swift is re recording all of
her old albums right now because the venture capitalist firm
owns her masters and she can't even like can't even
do what she wants to, Like they wouldn't even let
her perform her old songs at like a you know,
festival she wanted to. Why would you want to lock
your art away with somebody who could do anything that
they want to it to try to make money and
(23:50):
you have no control over it anymore, and in fact,
only get fifteen percent of the royalties. And that's just
that's just wild, and especially if it used to make
sense because they were providing a ton of marketing and
we're getting you in front of an audience who didn't
have access to you, but now you have access to
make that happen for yourself, and you don't, you don't
need that, and they're not going to provide you any
(24:11):
marketing and in fact, they're only trying to book authors
who already have a big following, So it seems silly
to just like sign away the rights to your book.
And also only get fifteen percent of the returns for
it when you could just as easily make your own
platform preach.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yes, what is your all time favorite piece of your
own writing?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Probably obscurity. But I did write some fun articles, like
I always loved this article I wrote that was called
I'm Secretly Loving the Pandemic. I think it was actually
called secretly loving that the World, which I thought was
a little fun. And I also read a nonfiction piece
called why I no Longer Read the New York Times,
which was I think, really I really loved that piece.
(24:57):
But fiction definitely obscurity.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Okay, So I guess one more question for you. You
interview other writers sometimes on your substack. What is one
or two of your favorite takeaways that you've gotten from
interviewing other writers.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I would say that most authors are undervaluing their work,
not charging enough, not offering higher tiers, not asking for money.
They just like a lot of people think that you
can just kind of coast and just like grow a
following and that will automatically mean you'll make a living
doing it. That you actually have to like have a
(25:40):
business strategy and like you can't just wait for people
to subscribe, Like none of them, everyone who's sing it
on Patreon, everyone who's sing it on wpad, like they're
all like. There are some lucky breaks you can get
in terms of algorithms recommending your books at least on
woppad and things like that, but you still have to
you know, market your.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Oh my god, this has been amazing.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
I feel like I just got a masterclass in business
strategy for writers. So how can listeners find your work,
find your substack and connect.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
With you online?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah? So my substack is just Elgriffin dot subsack dot com.
And that's just E L L E G R I
F F I N dot substack dot com.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Leaders.
Writing is so much better with friends. I'm your host,
Courtney Cosack, and hey, let's connect on social media. I
am at Courtney Kosak. Last name is koc a k
on Twitter and Instagram. And make sure you're signed up
for the Bleeders Companion substack for all kinds of newsletter exclusives.
(26:45):
There's so much good stuff that I send out to
my free list, and I actually just launched a paid
subscription with some extra goodies where I take you behind
the scenes of all my best Bylines. I published a
post about my return to stand up comedy and how
I got ready to crush my shit. I wrote about
MFAs and whether or not I think it is worth it.
(27:05):
I also did one of my favorite workshops I've ever taught.
It's a manifestation workshop that I did for the New Year,
but it's really good anytime of the year. So there's
so much good stuff for free subscribers and even more
for paid subscribers, And there is a link in the
description for that and join me again next time for
(27:26):
another all new episode. In the meantime, Happy Bleeding
I wrote a gothic novel, and then I tried to
go to the traditional route. I sent it to more
than one hundred agents, got more than fifty rejections, and
then the rest just ghosted. And then kind of as
I was going through that process, I was like researching
how to publish books and kind of what my options were,
and realized that there was like a very obvious reason
why no agent would want my book.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
El Griffin set out to query her gothic novel and
made some disappointing discoveries about the publishing industry in the
process that led her to serialize it on substack. Today,
She's going to take us down this unconventional path that
definitely has some upsides.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I mean, like Taylor Swift is re recording all of
her old albums right now because the venture capitalist firm
owns her masters and she can't even like can't even
do what she wants to, Like they wouldn't even let
her perform her old songs at like a festivals she
wanted to. Why would you want to lock your art
away with somebody who could do anything that they want
to it to try to make money and you have
(01:08):
no control over it. Anymore and in fact, only get
fifteen percent of the royalties.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Elle also shares why Anne LaMotte's shitty first draft advice
does not work for her, what it's been like writing
her second serialized novel as she's publishing it, and more
in today's episode, There's nothing to writing. All you do
is sit down at a typewriter.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
And bleed.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support group about
book writing and publishing. I'm writer and podcaster Courtney Cosack,
and each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors, agents,
and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Hi. I'm El Griffin, and I am the author of
a sub sec newsletter called The Novelist, where I published
serial novels. My first one was Obscurity, a gothic novel
I serialized in twenty twenty one, and now I am
publishing Oblivion, a utopian novel I am serializing.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Now, when did you first identify as a writer.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Professionally? Not until like probably five years ago, maybe six
or six years ago. But I wrote like a blog
for fun, always, like since right out of college. It
was always like a side thing that I did. So
it was but I never thought of it as a career.
It was just like a fun hop.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I guess did you think as a career it was
like possible.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Do you know what I mean? No, I do not
think it was possible at all.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
What's your all time favorite book? Lima's Rob Oh, Okay,
when did you read it and what do you love
about it? I read it in like twenty seventeen, and
I just think it's like one of the most beautiful,
most philosophically complex characters like Jean Valjean is this kind
(03:11):
of character who spends his entire life trying to be
good and like doesn't realize until it's like his deathbed
that he is good, and even that he like always
has been. I don't know, It's just like a very
beautiful story. Had you seen the musical first?
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yes? That was my first Broadway musical when I was
like in seventh grade, and that's what spurred my love
of Broadway musicals. So it's like kind of crazy because
then later it became my favorite book and also just
is what inspired me to write my own novels.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
So oh awesome. Okay, what's your dream writing routine?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Just wake up in the morning, have some tea and
a croissant and write. I could probably only write till
likenwone or something and then I need to be done.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Is there music are you? Are you just zoned in?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I don't listen to music unless like my husband's on
a conference call or something, and then I will like
my ear pods in.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
To round him out.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, And then what does your real writing routine look like?
And I saw you have like a sub stack where
you kind of go into your ritual, which is really cool.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, it's basically the same, except I stop at nine
because then I have a day job.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
What's one piece of writing that makes you jealous? You
didn't write it?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Why, miss Rob, I need.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
To read that. I love the musical so much.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, just as beautiful, if not more.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Okay, so let's dive into I became familiar with your
work through substack, like I think probably a lot of
people in your sphere have, and it's such a cool journey.
So I just kind of want to dive into. You
have two novels right now and one that has already
(04:57):
kind of been serialized in full and more in process.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Is that correct exactly?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So I guess start with the first Obscurity was your
first one?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yes, Yeah, I wrote a gothic novel, and then I
tried to go the traditional route. I sent it to
more than one hundred agents, got more than fifty rejections,
and then the rest just ghosted. And then kind of
as I was going through that process, I was like
researching how to publish books and kind of what my
options were, and realized that there was like a very
obvious reason why no agent would want my book, and
(05:30):
that's because it was a gothic novel that probably best
comped with one hundred year old books like they Miss
Rob and The Kind of Money Crysto and a Christmas Carol,
and so I was like, well, this probably has a
niche audience more than anything. And that's when I started
looking at all the research about the creator economy, looking
into like Patreon and all these other options, and ultimately
(05:51):
landed on Substack. So I published it on substack, one
chapter at a time, and kind of while I was
doing that, documented my process in real time and kind
of how it was working for me. Like when I
started on substack, there were only other like eight other
fiction writers on the platform, and most of them were
doing short stories. Now there's like a million.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So when did you first start?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Well, my subjects started in February of twenty twenty one,
and then my novel started in September of twenty twenty one,
so I like did a ramp up period try to
like grow a subscriber base first.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So was that your first novel that you had attempted
to write.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I attempted to write another one when I was in
my twenties. I wrote like a young adult fantasy novel.
But it was I was like following that advice I had,
like read some book that said You're supposed to write
like a crappy first draft first and then make it
perfect in the second draft. But like the first draft
was so bad and I hated it so much that
it was just I hated it. It was just like
no worth trying to resurrect and like rewrite the whole thing,
(06:56):
like the leaven. The flaw was bad. So I was like, Okay,
I'm going to try this again and start over, and
this time I'm going to write the way like I
write journalism, which is just like one perfect paragraph, then
another perfect paragraph until like my done. And so that's
what I did. But the second novel.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
How long did that process take you, like writing it,
you know, quote unquote kind of perfectly, did you still
have to go back and like do another pass? And
how long did it take?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
It took me two years to write it, and then
I thought I was just going to be done with it.
But then I had my dad read it, and the
way that I had written it was chronologically. So originally
I had written it like, here's this woman in Paris
and she like joins the convent and then she comes
to New Orleans. But my dad was like, the New
(07:49):
Orleans part is like where things get really juicy. I
feel like you should like start there. So I started
to cut the whole Paris part and then insert it
like her whole like back story as like flashbacks. So
we start with her writing in New Orleans and then
flash back to her past in Paris from time to time.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Oh okay, cool. So yeah, let's dive into that querying process.
You said you went out to one hundred people. What
was your strategy going in and what did you learn
from it aside from I want to go to substack.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Well, I think the turning point was when I was
trying to research, like, okay, how is this even going
to work? I knew nothing about the publishing industry, right,
and so I like researched this article that I called
no One will read Your Book and just shared like
a bunch of stats about the publishing industry. And then
(08:47):
I had a follow up post called why writing books
isn't a good idea, and it basically what I learned
is that even among traditionally published books, so like, say
I do get an agent, say I do get a
publishing house, like a publishing house like top of the Top,
then I'm still looking at it's two hundred and sixty
eight books. Only two hundred and sixty eight books sell
(09:08):
more than one hundred thousand copies in a year, which
is like nothing like if you look at the top
But if you look at the top ten books in
the world and see what they're selling, like one hundred
thousand copies, like that's silly compared to like the top
ten movies that they're saying like seeing millions and millions.
So I was just like, this is kind of like
a dying art. And then you know ninety six percent
(09:29):
of books sell less than one thousand copies. So I
was like, even if I traditionally publish and they get
seventy five percent of my royalties. I'm still going to
sell a thousand copies and make zero money. It just
seems silly. I would be better off just trying to
like build a following for my own work and like
trying to monetize it directly. And so when I started
(09:50):
my newsletter, that was my intent was to grow like
a newsletter following. And then however I published my book,
whether it was on Amazon or whatever, at least I
would have an audience for it that I could sell
it to. But then in the process of like creating
that and started to build some kind of hype on
subs deck, then I was like, Okay, I'll just publish
it here. And this is in fact, how a lot
(10:10):
of people used to publish books, including my favorite Dollars
so oh, through magazines, right, yeah, through magazines and newspapers.
So you know the Kadamni Cristo is a serial. Alexander
Dumas published in a local newspaper and he did it
in like eighteen installments, and I started like looking into
his story and realizing that he made sixty four thousand
(10:32):
dollars like in today's dollars per installment. What yeah, so
he's like because it's over time, Like if you can
imagine how much money a television show generates versus a
movie because it's continually coming out, right, this is a
better model. I think I'd rather have subscribers than like
a one time sale for ten dollars.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
So, you know, what is so interesting about your story
is that most people go through the querying process and
their big takeaway I think if they don't get anywhere
is like I suck or like you know what I mean,
or you know, they take the rejection personally, and I
love that your take on it was just like, oh no,
(11:13):
let me think about this logically, Actually the problem is
with them, and you really like took it into your
own hands and made it work. So okay. Then doing
it on substack, what was the response and what did
you learn from that part?
Speaker 1 (11:30):
It was kind of interesting because the original way that
I planned it was my newsletter was free and my
novel chapters were paid subscription, which is a very stupid
way to do that, because I had like two hundred
and fifty paid subscribers or something, so that was like
the maximum amount of people that could read my book,
and then I had way more than that newsletter subscribers,
(11:52):
and what they were really valuing was like the newsletter
portion of like my behind the scenes journey. And also
I wrote the book for to be traditionally published, so
it's very like slow and creeping and just like gently
haunting the whole way through, so it's not really like
great for a serial format. So I definitely changed that
(12:13):
around this year when I debuted my second novel, Oblivion,
and all of my chapters are super short. They're you know,
less than five hundred words. There's a hook at the
end of every single one to keep you interested, and
then they're free, so any of my subscribers, all my
subscribers will get them. And then the thing that I
charge for now is like I'll have some author commentary
(12:35):
at the bottom of a chapter if they want to
learn like my influences for it, and they have to
pay if you want to comment on them as well,
So like my paid subscribers will get in and like
comment on it and be like, oh, I'm really interested
in this character. I can't wait to see where that goes.
So it's like now I feel like designing the writing
for the platform is much better and it's much more engaging,
(12:55):
and people are part of the process, and I'm writing
it live, so I could change how much my next
chapter turns out on the fly. So it's much more
like of a collaborative thing this time around.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Oh you're writing it live. Yeah, oh fun. Yeah yeah,
you can be super like responsive and kind of learn
as you go to That is so interesting. It is
very true, like people will pay for craft more than
they will pay for entertainment. And also part of it's
just like how we've been conditioned because you would think, yes,
(13:30):
I'm going to put my book behind the paywall, but
right yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Well even if you think about it, that's just not
how art works right now, Like you'll pay ten dollars
to read like the Da Vinci Code, but if you're
a writer, you might pay one hundred and eighty dollars
to watch Dan Brown do a masterclass on how he
wrote the Da Vinci Code and like how he got
it published. So I just that's kind of the take
that I'm I'm playing with my newsletter is like all
(13:55):
my art is free for you to be a patron of,
but the like hind the scenes and like how it's made,
and how it's working is like, pay it now.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
That's so interesting. Yeah, I have another newsletter. I have
one for bleeders this podcast, but I have a newsletter
for podcasters and it's not monetized yet, but I'm approaching
the one your anniversary and will soon and I'm like, oh,
this is actually a better business than the podcast that
I make.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
That's hilarious about podcasting, absolutely, because everyone's like, how do
I do this?
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
You did. Hey.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
So this is a not so subtle plug for my
other newsletter. It's called podcast Bestie, and it's full of
podcasting tips and tricks for aspiring and indie podcasters. So
if you have a podcast or you're thinking about starting one,
check out the link in this episode description and join
the squad. Okay, so now you have a second novel
(15:00):
in progress. It's a utopian novel. Tell us a little
bit about that.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, Oblivion is a utopian novel and I'm writing there's
two parts to it. I'm like doing all of the
research for it in non nonfiction form, so I'm writing
these essays imagining a more beautiful future, and then I'm
like using that research to write my fiction chapters and
it's about every other week. So one Monday, I might
(15:26):
have an article that's called we Won't Need Doctors in
the future, and here's all my research on that, and
then the next week it's chapter one, and then you know,
it kind of goes from there. So it's been really
fun because on the subtec app there's this new section
called subdec Chat, and you can have like daily conversations
with news letter subscribers, and we've just been like geeking
(15:46):
out in there, sharing all this like utopian content and
like what books everybody's reading, and would this kind of
government work or would this kind of city be the
most beautiful? And it's just been kind of fun to
like do all the brainstorming collaborative and then what comes
from that is the art. So it's been fun.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Oh my god, that's amazing and like the perfect antidote
to the constant dystopia that we live in.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yes, we need topia novels so we can imagine something better.
It's horrible that we only have the negative way things.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Could go totally totally. What have you learned about yourself
or your writing process while working on both of these projects.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Well, it's interesting because it's so different from you know,
I'm like a journalist by profession, and that is all
about generating page views, you know, because that's where advertisers advertise,
and like journalism is very much fact based, like all
of these things have to be facts and they have
(16:55):
to back up able. And then there's writing a blog
where you don't have to have any facts or anything,
and it's like kind of about your life and you
can just write whatever you want and it can take
you can not capitalize your eyes if you want, and
it just so there's no rules. So when I first
created my substeck, I was like, okay, there's I want
this to be no rules, Like this is where I
(17:15):
can have fun and be creative. And that has been
really fun because I've done so many weird things with
my substeck, and I just think it's like I think
it's really fun to explore and just try different things.
And like after this book, like the first book was
really fun. It was like, oh, I'm serializing a gothic
novel in the vein of all gothic novelists. And then
(17:37):
this time it's like, oh, I'm writing a utopian novel
and imagining a more beautiful feature and then like after this,
I kind of want to just do like, I want
to get into fan fiction and like write a fan
fiction to be really fun, which I could do using
my current model and keep it free and monetize the
other part of my newsletter. So I think there's like
I think there's just so many amazing things you could
do with it, which I think is just fun to explore.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, oh, I saw an article on your or I
read an article about fanfic and copyrights. Oh yeah, so
is that were you like brainstorming when you wrote that?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, totally, because I think right now fan fiction is
super niche and you have to be like into like
AO three and fanfiction dot net and like these kind
of obscure sites, and there are a lot of people
that use those. But I think it'd be really fun
to do in a substack format. Yeah, it would just
get more exposure and I think be really I don't know,
(18:34):
it'd be really interesting in people that already follow those works.
So I think it'd be fun. And yeah, you have
to be able to do it in a legal way
because otherwise you could get totally screwed over. But our
way to do it legally.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
As a substacker and for any substackers listening, like, do
you have one kind of piece of advice that you
would you would dispense.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah. When I was first starting out, I interviewed a
lot of authors who were already serializing fiction online. And
those included people who were doing it on Patreon or
people who are doing it on a Walpad or doing
it on a Royal Road. And the interesting thing is
everybody had the same response for how they grew their audience,
And it was like they were just so obsessed with
(19:18):
that platform and they were already reading there and interacting
there and engaging with other people's work there. But by
the time they were already starting their own work on
the platform, they were like a very in meshed community member.
And I think that is that works with substack, just
as it does on any other platform. Like you see
a lot of people saying, Oh, my subsec's going nowhere,
my subsects going nowhere, and like, do you read on subtac,
(19:40):
are you compnding on other substecs? Are you like an
active participant on the newsletters you follow? Because that's how
you find people, and that's how you find your people.
And now a lot of the subscribers that subscribe to
my newsletter. I'm also subscribed to their newsletter, and we're like,
we know each other. We've been commenting on each other's
stuff for a year now. Well, you have to kind
(20:01):
of develop that core community wherever you are.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
That's really good advice. You do not have to answer
this if you don't want to, But just like, how
is it going? Are you able to kind of replace
some of your income?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Well? No, I earned nineteen thousand dollars from my first
year on the platform. A little bit more than that,
I'm I have to pult the number.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
That's a good chunk though, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
So pretty good for a year one on the platform
and that, you know, nineteen thousand dollars from only like
two hundred and eighty people is kind of insane, so
that the idea have a small number of people patronizing
their patronizing is not where we'reing. I don't know. Yeah,
your work is cool, and I feel like that. I
(20:47):
do want to see if I can take that further,
But I like, my job is a full time job,
so it's not like I could just like replace half
of it and do my job way. So I kind
of can't really do that until I'm like making a
full time living from Sudstock, which probably would take a
couple more years.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Well, hoping you get there soon. Yeah, it's so such
a cool platform. I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
It's so fun.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
So looking forward, you are going to write this fanfic,
do you have any bucket list writing goals?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, that's probably the next one. I don't really have
any outside of that, I've thought. I've been recently somebody
said something to me that made me think that my
my goals weren't big enough. I wasn't like dreaming big.
So I was like, Okay, I need to like come
up with bigger goals. So I decided to do this
exercise where I would like write my own Wikipedia page.
(21:41):
So I've been like writing that right now and trying
to see like what what I wanted to say about me.
And one thing I was thinking is like, oh, well,
if I'm like the sky's the limit, then yeah, like okay,
oblivion becomes a series on HBO and there's a you know,
maybe I'm part of writing this and maybe maybe I
(22:02):
can even have a bit part in it, like why not?
And well yeah, yeah, And so I've kind of thought
about that. Things like that that would be really fun.
I'm collabbing with this guy, I'm Matt, who has a
subjac fog Chaser. He's been writing music to go with
my novel chapters, and they're like, they sound like the book.
They're just so beautiful and meditative and calming and gorgeous.
(22:24):
And so we've been like talking about maybe making an album,
which would be kind of fun. And so there's a
lot of other ways that I want to use my
writing skills that I think would be fun. But it's
kind of like first things first, and then we'll see
where we can go.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, okay, cool. What is one piece of writing advice
you wish you could give your former self?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
It's hard because my former self there wasn't really great
opportunities for writers. I feel like only subac only really
came about in the last couple of years, and before
that it was like a word press blog which I had, Medium, which.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I had great. No notes.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Like if you're starting now, just like build a platform
for yourself. But yeah, former self, there weren't great options
out there for being a writer.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Fair enough. One tip for writers trying to get a
book published, don't are you just done with like you
know it's not on your bucket list? Do you have
any traditional publishing goals at this point?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I mean, like Taylor Swift is re recording all of
her old albums right now because the venture capitalist firm
owns her masters and she can't even like can't even
do what she wants to, Like they wouldn't even let
her perform her old songs at like a you know,
festival she wanted to. Why would you want to lock
your art away with somebody who could do anything that
they want to it to try to make money and
(23:50):
you have no control over it anymore, and in fact,
only get fifteen percent of the royalties. And that's just
that's just wild, and especially if it used to make
sense because they were providing a ton of marketing and
we're getting you in front of an audience who didn't
have access to you, but now you have access to
make that happen for yourself, and you don't, you don't
need that, and they're not going to provide you any
(24:11):
marketing and in fact, they're only trying to book authors
who already have a big following, So it seems silly
to just like sign away the rights to your book.
And also only get fifteen percent of the returns for
it when you could just as easily make your own
platform preach.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yes, what is your all time favorite piece of your
own writing?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Probably obscurity. But I did write some fun articles, like
I always loved this article I wrote that was called
I'm Secretly Loving the Pandemic. I think it was actually
called secretly loving that the World, which I thought was
a little fun. And I also read a nonfiction piece
called why I no Longer Read the New York Times,
which was I think, really I really loved that piece.
(24:57):
But fiction definitely obscurity.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Okay, So I guess one more question for you. You
interview other writers sometimes on your substack. What is one
or two of your favorite takeaways that you've gotten from
interviewing other writers.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I would say that most authors are undervaluing their work,
not charging enough, not offering higher tiers, not asking for money.
They just like a lot of people think that you
can just kind of coast and just like grow a
following and that will automatically mean you'll make a living
doing it. That you actually have to like have a
(25:40):
business strategy and like you can't just wait for people
to subscribe, Like none of them, everyone who's sing it
on Patreon, everyone who's sing it on wpad, like they're
all like. There are some lucky breaks you can get
in terms of algorithms recommending your books at least on
woppad and things like that, but you still have to
you know, market your.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Oh my god, this has been amazing.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
I feel like I just got a masterclass in business
strategy for writers. So how can listeners find your work,
find your substack and connect.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
With you online?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah? So my substack is just Elgriffin dot subsack dot com.
And that's just E L L E G R I
F F I N dot substack dot com.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Leaders.
Writing is so much better with friends. I'm your host,
Courtney Cosack, and hey, let's connect on social media. I
am at Courtney Kosak. Last name is koc a k
on Twitter and Instagram. And make sure you're signed up
for the Bleeders Companion substack for all kinds of newsletter exclusives.
(26:45):
There's so much good stuff that I send out to
my free list, and I actually just launched a paid
subscription with some extra goodies where I take you behind
the scenes of all my best Bylines. I published a
post about my return to stand up comedy and how
I got ready to crush my shit. I wrote about
MFAs and whether or not I think it is worth it.
(27:05):
I also did one of my favorite workshops I've ever taught.
It's a manifestation workshop that I did for the New Year,
but it's really good anytime of the year. So there's
so much good stuff for free subscribers and even more
for paid subscribers, And there is a link in the
description for that and join me again next time for
(27:26):
another all new episode. In the meantime, Happy Bleeding
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