Michael Wolff

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you have the president's attention, you're going to get
Carlin Insch's I mean, because that means you have actual power.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm Johanna Cole's chief content officer of The Daily Beast.
You are listening to or watching the Daily Beast podcast. Today,
we're talking to the Trump biographer four biographies, no least
Michael Wolf, and we'll obviously be talking to him about
the continuing Epstein saga that will not leave the president alone.
And wait till you hear what Michael's saying about what

(00:37):
he's hearing from inside the White House about Jeffrey Epstein
and how he died. But before we do that, I
want to address, Oh, by the way, myopic viewers may notice,
as a different backdrop, we've actually moved to a different
studio to expand because we're going to be producing.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
More podcasts for you.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
But I wanted to mention another character on the scene,
that of Laura Luma. She's a relative new character in
the court of President Trump, and this week she claimed
she says her sixteenth scalp. Her modus operandi is to
find people in government that she thinks are not loyal

(01:14):
to the president. She then points this out and the
people are then vaporized in their job or some of
them have chosen to resign. It's again a crazy development,
and we're going to go into it with Michael Wolfe,
so no time to waste admire the art in the
background as we get into it. Okay, Michael, so much

(01:36):
to discuss, not least Jeffrey Epstein and the President. But
I want to come to that slightly later in the show,
because first of all, I want to take several comments
that people have left on our YouTube channel challenging me
and saying that I interrupt you too much, and so
I wanted to go straight to the horse's mouth, as

(01:57):
it were, and ask you if you think this is well.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
The alternative is that I would go on forever.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
So and perhaps that's what they're saying, let him go
on forever, but I would prefer the better part of
valor is to okay, it is to find a pause.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
And to be fair, I feel I only try and
interrupt you when people who aren't following this story, the
Donald Trump story, as myopically as we are, might not
know who some of the characters you are referring to,
although at this point I'm sure people watching this podcast,
are actually pretty up to speed on it, and certainly

(02:37):
the comments are knowledgeable and knowing. But I'm glad that
you've swung to my defense.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
Well, I think maybe we should establish who's the straight
man here.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
I think it's me. I think it's me.

Speaker 4 (02:51):
All right.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
So the first person I really want to unpack with
you in this week's pod is Laura Luma. I mean,
I mean, there's even a verb now to be lumored.
And we've been keeping on the Daily Beast website a
list of the people that she has managed to either
get fired or they've resigned, and she seems to be

(03:14):
a character who's somehow come into the environs of the
White House. She seems to have a lot of influence
with the President, yet there seems to be resistance from
within the White House.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Well you know, I mean, I'm not sure we have
the quite have the context here, and because these people
kind of slip in and overnight they seem to become
part of the fabric without a clear acknowledgment of how
wacko something truly is.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
I mean, this is extraordinary. This person comes from there.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
I mean, there's no indication that this person knows anything
relevant about anything, And yet she has managed to create
a really heavy footprint inside this this White House. And
why and who and on what basis? And where does she?

(04:15):
Where does she come from? How has she been vetted?
Does she have any kind of clearance? Who's in charge?
And the answer to who who is in charge is
that the President of the United States is in charge.
In other words, she has one client, the President of
the United States. Everybody else, everybody And this was you know,

(04:39):
I saw this throughout the campaign. She's a horror show
to everyone else in the Trump circle. She just is
there because the President likes her, and I suppose that
means he trusts her, although no one else around the

(05:00):
President feels the same way. So it's a it's I mean,
let's let's try to try to describe this that you have.
You have a person who has who has only mannered,
managed to enter this echosystem because of this direct I mean,

(05:24):
I mean direct connection to the President of the United States.
He she's he is entertained by her, he's amused by her.
He he he overrides anybody else's concern and everybody has
concern about her.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
I mean, she's certainly very good at getting press attention.
I rememberware, I may have just interrupted you. Sorry, sorry listeners,
But she's had I mean, surprisingly for someone like like her,
she's had a lot of Colum Inches, even in the
New York Times.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
And we'll let me interrupt you. And would you do
all that?

Speaker 1 (06:06):
No, you know, I think you get if you have
the president's attention, you're going to get Colin Inch's. I mean,
because that means you have actual power, even if there's
no no reason to explain why, no traditional reason to

(06:26):
explain why you should have power.

Speaker 4 (06:29):
I mean, power usually.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Comes because because you've amassed influence and power through all
through various circles of government.

Speaker 4 (06:38):
She doesn't have any of this.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
All she has is the is this connection direct connection
to Donald Trump.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
And you've said on previous podcasts that she's become a
friend of Natalie Harp, who has who is one of
the key gatekeepers.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yes, so that's how she has been.

Speaker 4 (06:55):
This has happened.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
Everybody else has tried to keep her out. I mean
it has been. It was certainly a key challenge throughout
the campaign keep Laura Lumer out. She managed to get
in because she created some kind of connection with Natalie Harp,
which many people have realized. How you get to the president,

(07:18):
you get there through Natalie. That is probably the most
direct route.

Speaker 4 (07:24):
And she has.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Having done that, she then secured this this connection, you know.
I mean I understand the President calls her directly, she
calls the president.

Speaker 4 (07:37):
It's she is. She is in like Flynn now.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
And then I've seen other people around the President how
they they they react to her, and actually they are
afraid of her. I mean it's almost a physical kind
of thing. I'm not going there, right, you know, you
don't want to get you don't want to challenge her,
you don't want to get on the other side of her.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
I was just looking at some of the reporting.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
I mean, chryst Eliza said she's the de facto personnel
director at the White House. Now, We've been keeping a
tracker on the Daily Beast website, which we had to
update last night because I think the total tally of
scalps that she's proudly claiming is now sixteen.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
Yeah, I don't know if that would be.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
I mean, it's something it's something else actually, because she's
not really hiring anybody, she just sort of goes through
and finds reasons to object to or reasons you might
believe that such and such a person is.

Speaker 4 (08:44):
Less loyal than you have to be right.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
And she seems to go back through people's social media posts,
I mean just reading through some of the people. The
body count to date, Assistant US Attorney Adam Schleifer six A.
It's on Trump's National Security Council, obviously national security national
Security Advisor Mike Waltz, that seems an inevitability after Signal Gate,

(09:11):
but also the Deputy National Security Advisor Alex Wong, the
Surgeon General nominee, doctor Jeannette niche Wat, who was praising
COVID vaccines, which President Trump actually with his Operation Warp
speed put into action. And the list goes on, and
she's clearly very proud of it, and she has this

(09:33):
loyalty test.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Wait, you know, you know the thing this is amusing
to Trump in other words, hiring and firing. He likes it, well,
firing he especially likes likes to do. And he's he
kind of moves pieces around like like like on a board.
Oh you know, he does this thing here if you

(09:54):
can see my he flicks people flick them away.

Speaker 4 (09:58):
You know.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
Well, so he's said that and just that is that
one of his gestures. Yes, flick, And of course it
ties into the Apprentice.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
And there's a all of the very few people does
Trump acknowledge or understand as you know, you know, fully
dimensional human beings.

Speaker 4 (10:22):
It doesn't.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
They're they're just they just they either just represent something
good or they represent something bad, and that can that
can change in a in the blink of an eye.

Speaker 4 (10:34):
And and they are they are they are.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Components to be moved around or components to be.

Speaker 4 (10:42):
Gotten rid of.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
So so all this is and and they are exercises
of power, exercises of dominance. So this is that that
kind of thing. And she comes to him that person
is not loyal, okay.

Speaker 4 (10:57):
Get rid of them. I mean you don't even think
that true.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
I mean it does sound like a medieval court where
she is the court jester who then sort of at
the end of her dance points at someone, and then
the president, well that medieval king gets rid of them.
I mean it feels it really does feel not only Apprentice,
but Game of Thrones.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Yeah, I mean, but it is actually even less. These
people have less character than they would on Game of Them.
They're just a name, They're just a you know, there's
there's no there's no reliant.

Speaker 4 (11:31):
You know, this is a big government.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Remember, these are most of the people that Trump Trump
doesn't know, which is another reason to fire them, because
I know Trump does not know them, so therefore fire them.
But but I you know, I can't emphasize enough the
amusement factor, the sense of cruelty partly, which I think

(11:55):
that he actively cultivates because the advantage of it is
is that more people will.

Speaker 4 (12:01):
Be afraid of him.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
And the more you are afraid of him, the more
you will you will show your loyalty to him. I mean,
I think it's been been an interesting the last couple
of days, you know, with this the the emphasis on
you know, lawyers of Todd Blanche going down to do
the Blaine interview Alena Habba in New Jersey has been

(12:26):
rejected by everyone and then imposed whether legally or not.

Speaker 4 (12:31):
By the by the White House.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (12:37):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
And I have a funny detail about that, that that
that Trump has always called him email.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
As a joke or because he can't pronounce Emil's.

Speaker 4 (12:47):
As a joke. It's just a more form of contempt.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
I mean, this is what separates Trump from from everyone else,
is is a sense of he is separated, and it's
a superiority contempt your I'm I'm big, you're little.

Speaker 4 (13:07):
So how does he express that? And he expresses that
in myriad ways.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Including these these con contemptuous nicknames, and then including flicking
you away. I mean, this is a kind of a
very central central to his management method.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, and you feel inevitably for Laura Luma that she
will also be flicked away at some.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Very very good point. And I can guarantee right now
people are plotting to do that. And when that comes,
Trump will do it without without a sentimental moment.

Speaker 4 (13:42):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
The thing I found intriguing about her was that she
was talking about her personal life in an interview she
did with The New York Times which appeared earlier in July,
and she said she told her boyfriend that the president
would always come first in her life. That she she
then told the reporter she'd been an over wait teenager,
so now she cannot get fat, she must stay thin,

(14:04):
and that whenever she meets the president she must wear
a new outfit because she has to feel her best,
she has to feel at her most confident, and that
she's going to fake it until she makes it so
even though we know that she's been stopped from working
at the White House I think twice now, she seems
very determined. And I think there was an incident where

(14:25):
she was trying to get through the security cordon to
get to President Trump at the Lincoln Center recently, but
security and then White House aids kept her away.

Speaker 4 (14:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
No, And throughout the campaign there were instances like this
of trying to get on the plane and having people,
having people in the Trump circle force her off the
plane and then go in directly to Trump to get
back on the plane.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
And she's currently in a lawsuit with Bill Maher, who
she's suing because Bill Maher suggested that she was actually
having a relationship with the president.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
Right and there, and there was a there was a
moment of freezon within the within the Trump circle over this,
although everyone else has within the Trump circle has concluded
that Trump no longer has such relationships, but he does.
You know, it is very important to him to be
surrounded by women and women who look a certain way.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
No, she's got very much a mag a woman look.

Speaker 4 (15:27):
Yeah, and and that that is.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
Satisfying to Trump, I mean, and amusing and makes him
feel like I suppose like he wants to feel. I mean,
it is and we've talked about this before, the kind
of replacement for a past, past life, so.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
Talking about young women, Jeffrey Epstein still has a stranglehold,
it feels on Donald Trump.

Speaker 4 (15:56):
This week.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
He seems particularly irassable. Shouted at Caitlin Collins, the CNN
anchor and White House correspondent, when she asked him three
times about Jeffrey Epstein. We saw him trying to take
on Jay Powell at the end of last week. And
we're recording this on a Friday morning, and today's truth
sotion was full of animus towards j Powell. What are

(16:17):
you hearing from inside the White House? How this is
still going on?

Speaker 4 (16:21):
You know, I mean it's a very from inside the
White House.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
This is a difficult topic. I mean, it is the
topic that they do not know how to handle. Their
Their their response is only to attack. If you if
you connect the President to Jeffrey Epstein, then you were
going to be subject to attack.

Speaker 4 (16:43):
There's no you know, the there's no real I mean,
they are not going to.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Release release release documents, and they are not going to
explain why.

Speaker 4 (16:54):
They are not going to release documents.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
They are simply going to attack an attack and the
ways that they attack, which are which are you know,
there's that's what That's what Trump's the Justice Department lawyers
who have been his personal lawyers, that's what they're That's
what they're they're there to do at this this point,

(17:16):
I mean, I had a conversation with yesterday. I had
a conversation with someone who talks to Trump frequently, and
and this person had a conversation with Trump in the
last forty eight slightly possibly more hours, and.

Speaker 4 (17:33):
I mean it kind of gave me a chill.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
I mean, so Trump called called up this person and
said and said, they say I killed Epstein. I didn't
have Epstein killed. And then this person said, well do
you think think he was killed? And then Trump said

(17:57):
a lot of people wanted him dead. That other people
wanted him did certainly suggests that Trump understands and it
seems to agree that Epstein had and you know, it

(18:20):
was a man who knew.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Too much right, which is part of the mega basis
conspiracy theory about Jeffrey Epstein. And also there was a
video released by I think it was CBS this week
that appears to show a shadowy orange figure mounting some stairs,
which is just caught in very blurry supposedly security video

(18:45):
from the prison in which Jeffrey Epstein was being held.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
And we had Julie K. Brown on the show.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Earlier this week, who's like you not a conspiracy theorist,
but saying, there are so many anomalies in the prison story.
The video wasn't working. The video they release doesn't even
have his cell door on it. It seems completely irrelevant.
People were asleep, nobody was checking on him, he didn't
have a cell mate. The more you look into it,

(19:14):
the more questions you come away with.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Well, I think I think most of the in the
Epstein story in some sense works backwards. Why are we
dwelling on this in such to such an extent?

Speaker 4 (19:28):
Why is this? Why wound it go away? Because there's
you know, at the end of the story, there is
this there is this mystery, you know.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
I mean, I don't I have no idea what happened,
but I do know that that the that the description
of how he killed himself seems utterly implausible to me
and too and to many people at the same time.
The idea that he would be have been murdered killed.

(20:01):
I mean to me, seems to require the.

Speaker 4 (20:05):
Silence of.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
Probably half a dozen or more assistant US attorneys and
an equal number of FBI agents.

Speaker 4 (20:17):
And I find that implausible.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
And as he was just killed by someone randomly in
jail because he was there for you know, sex crimes
with underage girls.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
But we would know that then they would be able
to that would be that that would not be something
that that would be easy to deal with.

Speaker 4 (20:33):
People in jail are killed all of the time, and
and that would be you would be you would certainly
be able to document that.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Well, the mystery continues. As we've spoken about many, many
times on this podcast, Donald Trump is the master of
moving the narrative along. This time, the narrative, the Epstein narrative,
seems to be stuck. Do you feel the air is
going out of this crisis for him or do you
think it's going to stay at this level? I mean,

(21:07):
certainly the magabase doesn't seem to be letting it go.
Even Joe Rogan is talking about it, and not in
great terms for the president.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
I mean, I think one of the things about the
Epstein story it has always returned. It keeps coming back.
It will, Yeah, I'm sure it will. It will go
it will, it will go quieter. But you know, the
fact of the story is that there are questions which
demand answers and they aren't given so and you can,

(21:41):
you can put them out of your mind for for
for this period, but they never entirely go go out
of your mind, you know. And I think I think,
of course, if the if the if the house flips,
you know, in which is another conversation we should certainly

(22:03):
begin to have, because this is now that race is
starting in earnest, especially with this effort to.

Speaker 4 (22:12):
Jerrymander Texas.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
But if it does flip, well then this is going
to be you know, then certainly two years of investigations,
including including about about Epstein, which Trump is rightly terrified, and.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
We've got gilln Maxwell's appeal in theory coming before the
Supreme Court in I think November, and the Oversight Committee
saying that they want to subpoena her, and I think
her legal team saying they're not going to do that
until after the cases appeared at the Supreme Court.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Does that sound right?

Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, I think that sounds right. I mean, I don't
I don't think she is much of a shot at
this Supreme Court reversal here.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
Do you think she has a shot at a presidential pardon?

Speaker 4 (23:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Well, I mean I think you know, Todd Blanche went
down to speak to Glane to find out clearly what
she knew and does she have And I mean, I
don't think you can read that as anything else but
a but the beginnings of a negotiation. And the question
was what does she have to negotiate with and if

(23:24):
she has, if she has something to negotiate with, if
she can damage the President of the United States, well
then I think they'll they'll figure out what to do
with that. And I would say, yeah, she gets pardon,
what nine months whatever? However they however they structure the
effect of cover up well, And.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
I just want to remind people Todd Blanche, the former
personal lawyer to the president, who's now number two in
the Justice Department. Again an incredible anomaly in terms of
how presidents, you know, appoint justice.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
Well, but but go beyond that.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
They are all his former personal attorneys, you know, the
Attorney General, Pam Bondi a personal attorney, Emil beauvet Email
a personal attorney.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
Now on the Appeals Court.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yes, now slated to be to be on the Appeals
Court with with a trajectory to the Supreme Court. Alena
Habba again a personal attorney Boris Epstein, who is not
even in is not employed by the federal government, does
not have a job in the executive branch, nevertheless overseeing

(24:41):
much of what of what of what happens in the
Justice Department, much of what happens with what Trump wants
to happen in the Justice Department.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Okay, so we should do a special episode, I think
in the next few weeks about Donald Trump's lawyers.

Speaker 3 (24:58):
And of course he's had.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Much more exposure to other presidents than lawyers because he's
had so many cases he's for over the years. I mean,
it's so unusual to have a president come into office
with a quiver of personal lawyers. You think, all right, Michael,

(25:20):
we will be watching this story with great interest. I
know you're in incredible demand this week and you'll be
doing lots more media appearances. Good luck, and we will
see you next week for more on this extraordinary unfolding story.

Speaker 4 (25:34):
I look forward.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
Well, I'm fascinated by Laura Luma and I'm very curious
to know how long she lasts in President Trump's circle
of influence, and we will obviously keep you posted about
her since we've been recording this podcast. Something that Julie K. Brown,
the investigative reporter from the Miami Herald, that we had

(26:00):
on the podcast on Monday predicted, has indeed come to pass.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Gilen Maxwell, in jail.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
Sentenced you will remember for twenty years for sex trafficking,
has actually been moved jail. She's moved from the federal
jail in Florida to a minimum security jail in Texas
where she has a sister. And curiously, as our story
says in The Daily Beast, which is just broken, she
will be a longside wait for it, wait for it,

(26:30):
Elizabeth Holmes, the Ferronus fraudster who got sentenced to eleven years,
and the former Real Housewives of Salt Lake City star
Jen Shah. So she will wake up to a different
weekend ahead. I hope you have a good weekend. Don't
forget to be Beast or indeed subscribe to the Daily
Beast for a moment by moment updates on modern Earth

(26:53):
is going on, because it's completely unpredictable.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
And please join me in applauding

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Our producers Devon Rogerino, Aavon Erson, and our long suffering editor,
Jesse Millwood.