Michael Wolff

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Joanna Coles.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Oh no, not again.

Speaker 1 (00:04):
You have to introduce yourself. Not everybody knows who you are.
Michael Wolfe.

Speaker 3 (00:07):
I am Michael Wolfe, who has known Joanna Coles occurred.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
To me on the way in for twenty five years.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Twenty five and we've had feuds along the way. I
think it's fair to say.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
I've had feuds with everyone. So that doesn't make you exceptional.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Okay, Oh that's sad, because I wanted to be exception
I do remember though we were having a feud. I
can't remember what it was about. And I bought the
audio book in those days, it was cassette tapes that
I put into the car to listen. It was. It
was the book about Rupert Murdoch.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Rupert Murdoch another again in the.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
News, also in the never out of the news, really
and it was like having you in the car.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
The man who owns the News was the name of
that book.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
The man who owns the News was the name of
the book. And I called you and I said, Michael,
I feel as if I've been driving with you for
five hours and you literally said to me, the feud
is over.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Actually that's not that's not the story.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Well that's my memory of it.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
The story was that you were mistakenly invited to the
book party for the man who.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Owns the News, and I saw you, I thought, why
are we fighting?

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Is that true?

Speaker 2 (01:17):
It's true.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
I think we actually had two separate feuds. Well, anyway,
I'm disappointed that I was mistakenly invited. I think I've
been mistakenly invited to lots of things. So it's fine. Anyway,
where are we going.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Inside Trump's head?

Speaker 3 (01:33):
And you know, it gets I used to say that casually,
but it gets more and more frightening.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm fizzing to talk to you because it is so
much going on. We've got, I mean, I think areas
for us to cover if we have enough time. The
FBI infemant crazy story from Mike Johnson. We have the
birthday letter that Trump denied he ever wrote, but has
now been released by the Oversight Committee.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
We the whole book, not just the letter.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Right, the whole birthday book, Yeah, which is really a
profile of Jeffrey Epstein and a profile of power, really
depressing view of women. But we'll come on to that.
We have the Egene Carroll Settlement, the Upholding.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Of Nothing, the settlement, the judgment, well.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
The upholding of the settlement, the eighty three million dollars.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
No, no, no, it's not a settlement, it's a judgment. So
they said that Trump went to court on this and
they ruled absolutely against them.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
And then.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
And then the jury put a dollar amount on it,
ninety three million there, eighty three million whatever. But you know, millionaire,
ten million here, ten million.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
There, which he contested. Now is sounding like Jeffrey Epstein,
which he contested, and the courts up Holden said, actually,
your behavior was so egregious. Eighty three million is exactly.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
So Trump is going to have to pay in all
likelihood the fullmount.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah, he can in fact refer it to the Supreme Court,
but technically he's run out of appeals and they can
throw it back at him, all right. And then we
also have an excellent piece in the New York Times
magazine about JP Morgan's role in enabling Jeffrey Epstein, which
once I started reading, I couldn't put it down. It

(03:33):
reminded me of those great old Vanity Fair pieces.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
But I remember you anymore. You remember the magazine business, Oh.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
The magazine business. I missed you.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
And this, of course magazines.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Well, this was in the New York Times magazine. Well yeah,
but that's that's so where do we begin such riches
for us to pick over the jackals of information that
we are. But if we're going inside Trump's head.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
Well, let me let me I know something about this.
I mean, this Mike Johnson thing is completely fascinating because
it's preposterous.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
So let's just remind people of exactly what it is.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
So Mike Johnson came out and said that the reason
that Donald Trump knows Jeffrey Epstein, the root of their
relationship is that, I mean, really is that Donald Trump
was an FBI informer trying to bring down Jeffrey Epps.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
So comical. And also there's a memoire because everybody knows this.
Everybody knows. It's like, what are you talking about? Nobody
knows is where did it come from?

Speaker 3 (04:38):
Well, let me just do the background here, because there
is in all Trump lies whoppers, there's a grain of truth.
And the grain of truth is that in two thousand
and four, Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump had this big
fight over a piece of real estate in Palm Beach.
Epstein bid thirty six million dollar dollars for this house,

(05:01):
brought his friend Trump to see the house and advise
him on moving the swimming pool. Trump went around his
back and bid forty I think forty one million dollars
for this house. Epstein convinced that, with an understanding of
Trump's finances, believed that he didn't have this money. Therefore,

(05:22):
if he didn't have this money, he must be fronting
for someone. So, in Epstein's view, Trump was laundering money.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
And in fact, within.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Less than two years, the forty one million dollar house
was bought by for ninety five million dollars by a
man by the name of Dmitri Rbalev, a Russian oligarch.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Need I say more so.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
The house in Palm Beach doubled in value in two years.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yes, more than doubled in valued.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
Yes, So this is this is a kind of a
red flag for money laundering. But even before that, Epstein
started to accuse his friend now former friend, Trump of
being a money launderer and threatening to expose him, whereupon
Epstein believed it was Trump who, in the face of

(06:17):
Epstein's threats, went to the police and made his own
threats that Epstein was running quote a whorehouse. So and
that began. Epstein believed his long legal problems. So anyway,
jumping ahead to just the just the other day, right

(06:39):
when when in the background.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
And hold on, the accusations of Trump money laundering are not.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
New, No, no, there are There was this, when this happened.
This this, uh, the sale of this house, I mean,
the sale of this house within two years a double
more than doubling is a red flag and was a
red flag at the time.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Was it investigated at the time that I don't know.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
It was certainly speculated at the time. I mean, there
was a lot of press coverage on this, and these
things are very hard to investigate, you know, I mean
it's a you know, especially I mean the the circumstance
would essentially be that ribal V had given Trump the

(07:27):
money to buy the house for forty one million, and
then in turn he had would have bought the house
himself two years later for the ninety five million. So
these are all inflated, not real numbers, but just giving
him the opportunity to disguise a big sum of money.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
So the Russian oligarch is laundering his money and presumably
Donald Trump gets a fee for doing this.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yes, and even in Epstein described that Trump had had
previously told him this is a good idea, you should
do this, and he had compared it to He says,
it's just my I they they they buy purchase my name,
like like like there are buildings and hotels that purchase

(08:15):
my name.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
What's the difference?

Speaker 3 (08:19):
You're looking just I'm just please continue any at any rate.
So the Epstein story, in the middle of the Epstein story,
which is which Trump is panicked about, you know, I
mean the whole, the whole sequence of events. I'm going
to release the Epstein files. But as soon as my
Attorney general starts to release them, you know, I say,

(08:42):
you know, I go ape and say, no, way, close
this down.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
It's suddenly a hoax.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
Hoax being a tell word for Trump when he's faced
with a bunch of facts, he can't explain.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
It's a hoax.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Hop and people are lying.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
They they hear this.

Speaker 3 (08:57):
Mike Johnson says that Trump is a is an FBI informer,
and the people in the White House go, what the fuck?
What is he talking about? Nobody knows this, nobody's aware
of this. Therefore they immediately conclude. Because this happens again
and again and again that it was Trump who called

(09:19):
Mike Johnson and came up with this story based on
this kernel of truth, that it was Trump who first
went to the police about Jeffrey Epstein, but not to
protect the young women of Palm Beach, but to.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
To protect himself against Jeffrey. So he goes nuclear on
Jeffrey before Jeffrey goes nuclear on him exactly. So he
calls So the White House is surmising, I just want
to make sure I've got this clear. That Donald Trump
calls Mike Johnson and says, tell them I was an
FBI informant. I was an FBI in exactly. Mike Johnson

(10:01):
goes out and says this, whereupon everybody laughs at him
and says, what are you talking about.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
Right, and so he has to retract this because it
is completely preposterous.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Right.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
So there another Epstein chapter.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
Well, and again one just looks at the people who
are made to look foolish around Donald Trump, either by
fawning over him, as we saw at the Tech dinner.
Although as one friend said to me, you know, if
that's all it takes, if all you have to do
is sit around a table and say to him, you
are the greatest. Actually it's not very much to pay.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
I think I was that friend.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Oh did you say that? No, but I think actually
a friend in tech said it too, that if that's
all it takes, you know, but maybe it was you,
who knows?

Speaker 3 (10:46):
I mean no, But it is interesting because if that's
all it takes to get exactly what you want, right that,
So the message is that playing Donald Trump is easy.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Well, and you saw it with the European leaders right
when they come in and they sit around and they
televise the meeting, and you've got JD. Vance, and you've
got Marco Rubio sitting to the side in Pete hegsath.
You know, we can go on to the Department of
War or Defense or whatever, or even that doesn't seem
worth discussing given everything else that's going on. And then

(11:18):
you have the European leaders just going, oh, mister President,
you're the greatest, thank you so much for organizing this.
Then you've got that at the tech dinner. But if
that's all it takes, then it's a small price.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Perhaps, No, I think it's true.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
It's if you're if you're willing to be publicly humiliated,
then you get millions and hundreds of millions of dollars. Yes, right,
you'll be publicly humiliated for hundreds of millions of dollars.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
I would be publicly humiliated for much less, for much less.
But it's such I mean, because there is such an
interesting debate if you have all that money, if you're
Tim Cook, if you're you know, whoever was sitting around
the table completely.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
I mean, it's just you know, I mean, at the
center of this story, Epstein, Trump is greed, and yes,
these people are just greedy for more.

Speaker 1 (12:07):
Right, And I think the thing that people don't understand
is just because you have a lot of money doesn't
mean you don't want more. In fact, it almost might
signal you do want more.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
Yeah, it does, and you need more and you have
to sustain this thing that you've built.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Right, all right? How do we went off on a tangent?

Speaker 2 (12:26):
All right?

Speaker 1 (12:27):
So we dealt with Mike Johnson and the feeling that
the White House had that Donald Trump told Mike Johnson
go out and say I'm an FBI informant. Mike Johnson
then realized and again how ridiculous, rolls it back.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
And again, and my wife now says that I interrupt.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
You, so Victoria, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
So But again to.

Speaker 3 (12:48):
The important point to make here is that this is
just another form of Donald Trump's denial about Jeffrey Epstein,
something that he cannot deny because it is true and
because more and more details of the truth come out.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
And the interesting thing is, of all of the things
that you could get Donald Trump on, this is the
one that so far is sticking, and sticking is sticking.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Right, And I don't want to use the word noose,
but I'm going to It feels like the noose around
him on the Epstein story is tightening.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
So the question is should we go to now because
I think I think we have to because it's the
runway is clear to the to the birthday greeting.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
The birthday because it is you know.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
Because here again Donald Trump. So the background to this
is the Wall Street Journal was leaked. So in two
thousand and three, Jeffrey Epstein turned fifty years old, Gallaine
max Well organized a birthday book. She went around to

(14:03):
everybody that Jeffrey Epstein knows, his family, his friends, his girlfriends,
his business associates, and got them to write a letter.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
To be placed in this Keepsake.

Speaker 3 (14:16):
Book and the Wall Street Journal. When it was his
last month, got a was leaked the page the letter
that Donald Trump supplied Gallaine Maxwell to put in the
Jeffrey Epstein birthday book, and the letter you want to

(14:41):
so the letter is a sketch of a naked woman.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
I have a picture of the letter.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
And there is the Donald Trump's unmistakable signature.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
I think we should do a dramatic reenactment of Donald's
letter to Jeffrey Epstein, which is inscribed on the body
of a naked woman. All Right, who do you want
to be? Donald or Jeffrey?

Speaker 2 (15:03):
I you know it's this is a really hard choice.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
I'll be the president.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
I'll be the president, all right.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
And it starts with a voiceover that says, there must
be more to life than having everything.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yes, there is, but I won't tell you what it is.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
I'm Jeffrey here, nor will I since I also know
what it is.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
We have certainly things in common, Jeffrey.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yes, we do, come to think of it.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Enigma's never age. Have you noticed that?

Speaker 1 (15:32):
As a matter of fact, it was clear to me
the last time I saw you.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
A pal is a wonderful thing.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
Happy birthday, and may every day be another wonderful secret.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Oh, it's so creepy. It's so creepy.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
And then that and then signed, and then the signature,
the Trump signature is the pubic hair on this woman.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
And actually his signature oddly does look like people. You know,
I thought that was quite good.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
So anyway, this is The Wall Street Journal publishes this,
and Donald Trump says completely made up, not true, a fraud,
a hoax, a hoax.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
And then.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
Going back to Rupert Murdoch, he sues Rupert Murdoch for
ten billion, ten billion dollars because of this, of this hoax, and.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
The Wall Street Journal says they stand by their reporting
because they obviously know the source they got it from.
Who was Who do we think?

Speaker 3 (16:38):
We think it's the Maxwell family, which we think led
to the panicked visit of the number two in the
Justice Department, Todd Blanche Trump's personal lawyer, to Gallaine Maxwell's
prison in Florida, where where then she then produced a

(17:01):
told the world how wonderful Donald Trump is and that
she had never seen him do anything inappropriate ever, and
was immediately transferred to a much more comfortable prison. And
the world anticipates her forthcoming pardon.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
Right, and a prison in Texas where she has a sister,
and she said she was thrilled for Donald Trump that
he became president and she wanted to congratulate him.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Right, Her sister is not in prison.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
Just yes, to be clear, his sister lives in Texas,
but that's the relative that she has that she can
go and visit her. So Elene is sitting in a
Texas prison awaiting pardon. Trump has been asking people what
to do should he pardon her. We now have direct evidence.
This letter appears to have been very clearly written by.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Okay, he denies it.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
It's now been released by the House Oversight Committee. The
entire this entire entire book with letters from lots of
people Clinton, well.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Bill Clinton, Lord Mandelsson, who's the British ambassador to Washington,
who now says he wishes he'd never met Jeffrey Epstein,
but in fact, in his birthday letter says Jeffrey Epstein
is his best friend.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
Oh yeah, and we can do the Mandlsson. I have
background on that. Let's not do that now, but that's.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
For another episode, another episode.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
At any rate, it is.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Bill Clinton, Dershowitz. There were lots of.

Speaker 3 (18:30):
People, everybody, Leon Black, everybody, and well we know about that,
Epstein's mother, everybody, everybody in his life.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
At some point I would like to do a deep
dive on Epstein's parents. We don't have to do it
now because there's too much to get into. That's newsy,
but I would like to understand where he came from.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
Okay, table that and put it on the mandelssoh pile.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Okay, on the mandleson pile. All right, I'd better write
these down for future ideas.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, keep going so so and at any rate, this
is the Oversight Committee releases this this book. It is,
you know, credible on every basis. There's certainly nobody else
denying that their letter was a hoax. So it turns

(19:19):
out that that somewhere in all of this this book,
somebody put a hoax letter from Donald Trump, so that the.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
Possibilities of that are nil.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
But this is also what he does. Right, look at
the Stormy Daniels case. Stormy Daniels, he denies ever having
slept with her. He denies it, keeps on denying it,
denies it. Through the trial. He's found guilty of financial
crimes because he's paid her off and then denies that
he's paid her off and they structured it in endless

(19:52):
what was it, thirteen separate payments of twelve grand Yeah, no, no,
that was clearly what he does. He just denies, denies, denies,
and though courts find him guilty.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
But back to the main point, which is that he
can't deny this. This letter is from Donald Trump to
Jeffrey Epstein. It is clearly true in all regards. In
it clearly puts Donald Trump in at the center of
Jeffrey Epstein's life and Jeffrey Epstein's activity, in Jeffrey Epstein's behavior,

(20:30):
and Jeffrey Epstein's ethos, and in fact, in this book
there is a there is a joke about about there's
a there's.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
A check, novelty check. There are many letters in here
that I found disturbing, but there is one that must
have taken a lot of effort for a birthday book,
which is a friend of Jeffrey standing there with a
novelty check, one of those yes if you've won the
power ball or something, and it's signed Donald Trump, fake

(21:07):
signature of Donald Trump, and it says Jeffrey is showing
early talents with money and women sells fully depreciated name
redacted to Donald Trump for twenty two five hundred dollars
shows early people skills too. Though I handled the deal,

(21:30):
I didn't get any of the money or the girl.
So that's obviously one of his bankers or financial advisors, right.
I mean, it's just so depressing and also interesting that
Donald Trump is the person who bought the depreciating asset.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
No, the portrait of this book, the portrait of Epstein,
is goes that he is interested in and that's perfectly
sums it up two things.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
He only has two interests, which is sex, girls, sex,
and money.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
And Donald Trump is so completely connected to this what
are we calling it lifestyle that I you know, I
just I just don't see how this does not continue
to come back and haunt him. He can't get away

(22:29):
from this.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Well. There was also another very interesting piece in the
New York Times magazine about how JP Morgan enabled Jeffrey
Epstein's lifestyle and how valuable he was as a client
of the bank because he made lots of very useful introductions,

(22:50):
including I.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Was but even even yet.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
No, that's I know what you're going to say, because
it really is is is interesting and hasn't hasn't gotten
the attention.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
There are a lot of details in this story that
haven't got the attorney.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
But the other thing, just to just to go to
the background here, is that it really is a portrait
of how banks operate.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
Private banking operates with these.

Speaker 3 (23:14):
Kinds of people who are introducing who know people, they
know people they introduce to the bank, but because they
know the bank, they get to meet other people. And
the nexus here in this instance is Epstein.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Right, and one of his enormous values to the bank.
So even when he's gone to jail for sex offending,
they keep him on as a client because he's so valuable.
One of the people he introduces them to. And I
was actually astounded by this is the co founder of Google,
Sergey Brinn.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
Okay, a story I digress because I was not surprised
because I was there when Jeffrey Epstein met Brinn.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
Okay, Michael, you are you are Zelig, You are everywhere,
so you're totally a Zelig figure. What do you mean
you were?

Speaker 3 (24:06):
Okay, Okay, I'm I'm going to I'm going to tell
this this story and this is a long digression.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
Excellent, Okay, I'm settling in.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
I'm settling in in the year two thousand. It's possibly
two thousand and one, but I think two thousand. I
was invited by the by the organizers of the TED
conference to fly out to Monterey, where the conference took place.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Every year, on a private plane.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
I mean, do you want to go out on a
private plane with a group of other speakers at the conference.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
And you have like a dinner party in the sky.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah, And I was like, yeah, sure, I mean, I
mean and I but I had no idea whose plane
this this was?

Speaker 2 (24:53):
And I didn't ask.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
It didn't feel that that was a germane question, just
a private plane obviously, And so I was told the
hangar to to.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Where I had to go at Kennedy Airport.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
And when I got there, there was a bunch of
other people there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Stephen Pinker, Geraldine Layborne
and the founder of Nickelodeon, you know people, and Oxygen
and people I knew knew in the media business, John Brockman,

(25:28):
the literary agent, and and everybody.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Was kind of like, whose plane is this? Do we know?

Speaker 3 (25:34):
We didn't know, And we were we were let out
onto the tarmac and there are a bunch of G
four's and G five's and we head there just kind
of in mass, and then we're redirected to a seven
twenty seven, and that was like this is this is unexpected.
And we get on this plane and the plane inside

(25:57):
doesn't look like a plane. It's this kind of a
cibber An affair. And planes look entirely different if you
if you take out the overhead compartments, and and so
this this plane was like a.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Sort of nightclub, a plane nightclub, you know.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
It was a kind of combination between a a nightclub
in a in a boutique hotel.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Right, okay.

Speaker 3 (26:23):
And and so everybody's on this plane kind of wondering
what are we doing here?

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Who's plane is this? And then this.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
Guy gets on, kind of Ralph Lauren looking guy, Jeffrey Epstein,
with three teenage girls, not his daughters.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
Was this the first time you've met him?

Speaker 3 (26:44):
This is the first time, first time I ever laid
eyes on him, And I had never heard the name
Jeffrey Epstein. And and so he's in these these girls women,
Well I don't know what the in this age thing,
and I don't know how old they were. They very
well could have been been nineteen eighteen rather than fourteen.

(27:08):
They probably weren't fourteen, but they probably weren't twenty two either,
So and then they immediately became the people who served
the food. This as though the stewardesses.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
So they're passing around fruit platters, making sure everybody feels comfortable.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
Yes, And if I can digress from the digression, Epstein
once went to see MBS in Riod in Saudi Arabia,
and where you could not bring women into the country
unaccompanied by a male relative, I think, except if they

(27:48):
were airline stewardesses.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
So that was the loophole.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
So Epstein would dress the girls in airline and stewardess costumes.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
Digression, it's so deep back to this.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
So anyway, we're on this this airplane, and Epstein is
incredibly gracious and it takes an interest in in everybody.
And then at at one point that one of the
people on the plane is the New York architect.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
David Rockwell.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Can I just stop and say, there is a lot
of hair on this plane. David Rockwell has a lot
of hair. Stephen Pinker has a lot of hair. Malcolm
Gladwell has a lot of hair.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
But I do not have a lot of hair.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
You do not have a lot of hair, although back
then you might have had more ham just more.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
But but and Jeffrey Epstein had a lot of hair.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Okay, so four men with a lot of hair.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah, so so at any rate, I'm standing I'm talking
to David Rockwell, and Epstein comes and says, oh, you
know you're I love your your work, your this, that
this hotel, that hotel which Rockwell has done.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
He said, would you.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
Mind looking at my the plant, my plans for this
island I'm building, and Rockwell.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
You know he's on the guy's playing the same.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yes, so he says, So Rockwell looks at this kind
of stuff and then I'm standing there, so it's it's
and Rockwell says, well, what are all these little rooms?
And Epstein says, deadpan, that's where the girls stay. And
I remember, Rockwell is.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Is that shows nothing? I mean, because what are you
going to do? What are you going to.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
Say to eccentric clients?

Speaker 3 (29:40):
And well, even I'm standing there and I'm thinking, what
would you how do you respond to this?

Speaker 2 (29:46):
I don't even know this guy? And then this is
then Rockwell.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
Goes on changing the subject and says, well, what about
this large area here, And Epstein says, that's where the
girls comb eat other's hair.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
So creepy.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
So later in this in this flight, also, let me
just point out that there's no sound on this airplane.
You know how noisy an airplane is. This has been
insulated in such a way that that you're in this
sky and it's and it's yes, but you also can't

(30:26):
hear anything.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
It's it's just like you're you're.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
In a a noise canceling headphones.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
I'm sitting in one of these incredibly comfortable chairs and
and Jerry Leyborne's slides into the chair next to me,
and she leans over and she says, I think this
is the closest I've ever come to pure evil.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
So she sensed there was something odd.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Well it was odd, yes, at any rate, going ahead,
because we're digressed from the surge Gay Brinn. But now
we're going to get there to the Sergey Brin. So
so at the TED conference, and the TED conference is
very interesting, a very central nexus to Jeffrey Epstein's network,

(31:15):
A lot of the people in the technology business, a
lot of the scientists that he knows. He meets he
meets at the TED conference. But so, so we're there,
and then he invites a group of people, some of
the people who were on the plane some other to
come out to the to his to his airplane to

(31:41):
and I can't quite remember was it specifically.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
To meet the Google guys.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
I'm not sure, because I don't think I even I
didn't know who the Google guys. I'm not sure I
actually knew at that point what Google was. But at
any rate, we go out to the to the airplane.
The Google guys, Bryn, Larry Age and a couple of
other people who were with them get on the airplane.

(32:06):
So yeah, so I guess they understand that they are
headed for enormous wealth.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
I didn't enough well to buy a plane.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Yeah I didn't. I didn't understand that at the time.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
But they seemed very very interested in as they got
on the plane. First thing, they run through it whooping,
I mean, like children, And then they talk about, well,
could you get Wi Fi and connectivity and and and
then they sit down we can't. And I'm sitting there

(32:41):
not really more witness than participant, and Epstein is having
a discussion with them, and he says, where did you
come up with the name Google? And they say, this
is without exaggeration. They say, oh, because we thought maybe
we'd do a line of of of under and I

(33:04):
think it was underwear, but specifically a line of bras
and the and the two o's would.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Be would be would be the cups of the bra.

Speaker 3 (33:19):
And now this is twenty five years ago.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
We've known each other for twenty five years, and I
remember it as vividly as if this were yesterday.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
It's just so strange. The whole thing is so strange. Well,
I was fascinated that Jeffrey Epstein had introduced Sergey Brin,
who must be now certainly one of their wealthiest, if
not their most wealthiest customers. And I think in the
New Times piece it said he'd brought four billion dollars
worth of assets with him, for which Jeffrey Epstein I'm

(33:55):
sure got a fine feed for the introduction. So one
of the things I thought was most extraordinary about the
piece was the detail it went into into the number
of cash transactions that Epstein was making to take money
out to pay the girls. And this is interesting because
it's a classic red flag for sex traffick.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
Okay, we don't know, by the way, that this is
money to pay the girls. We just know that this
is cash coming out, which is the red flag.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Well, they have all sorts of indications it was going.

Speaker 3 (34:27):
To go that some yes, some, but this is a
lot of money, so we don't we don't know.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
There may be other well, there was one other.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
It was four thousand and seven hundred suspicious transactions totally
one point one billion.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (34:42):
If that is the number, then we are talking about
something much beyond just paying women girls for massages, even
paying settlements, I mean.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
Even three a day. Even supposing he was spending one thousand.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
You can't, you can't.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
You can wouldn't get to one point one billion over
ten years.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
No, you wouldn't get there in one hundred years.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Where I am agreeing with you, agreeing with you, yes,
So what else is he doing with the cash?

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Right right? We have no idea.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
Well, there was also an interesting detail that he'd put
seven so he put a lot of money into Gilen
Maxwell's accounts, something that Todd Blanche raised with him.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yes, I think I think that was seven million dollars, seven.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Million dollars for green hell of yes.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
But seven million dollars still from billions is so far off.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Totally agree with.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
So I remember Todd Blanche said to her, because she'd
given him the figure of around two hundred and fifty
thousand that Epstein was paying her. And then the next
day he came back, clearly prompted by his staff, and
said what about the thirty million, And she said, oh,
I think he gave me twenty million for a helicopter.
In this piece he says that Epstein gave us seven
million for a green helicopter, very specifically a green one,

(35:54):
a Sikorski. Anyway, it's a fascinating piece and it gives
you insight into how valuable he was to the bank.
How the legal officer and the compliance officer both raised
their hands and said there were red flags here for
sex trafficking, and he remained a customer.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Well, you know, I think the the if you remove
Jeffrey Epstein's name from this, I mean Jeffrey Epstein in
the description of his behavior, you think this is a
completely unique and obviously reprehensive criminal.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
But if you remove his name, I.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
Think you get a very clear description of how banks
operate at this level, not just with Jeffrey Epstein, but
with hundreds of Jeffrey Epstein's.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Now, whether they are all taking out out.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
Cash or whether in the do they all have sexual fetishes,
probably not. But what they do all have is the
they are all they are all using the bank, using
the bank leverage relationships, and using the relationships to leverage banks.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
And it's I mean, I mean, it's just just to me.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
It's like one of those who knew things, this is
the way this works. Well, the Mega people are right
in saying that there is a cabal of of that
there is something we don't see going on, and people
are getting rich off of it, and people are accruing
power because of it, and these are the people with influence,

(37:32):
and we don't know how this happens. Well, this is
a description, almost a road map of how it happens.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Now. The problem with the Mega.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
People is that they see this as as a a
organized cabal of people who get together and discuss what
they're going to do and and and how they're going
to do it and how they're gonna gonna going to
make the world into what they want it to be.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
And it is not.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
It's it's a disorder organized the cabal of people.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Well, And the other thing that it shows you is
how companies work. That people raise their hand, they point
something out, and other people say, well, we're not going
to look at that right now, and they're like, well,
I've done my job. I've told you this is a
sign of sex trafficking. And then somehow it doesn't seem
to get far enough up the company that any action
is taken until eventually it becomes, as you have always said,

(38:24):
a pr problem.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
Well, in this instance, most of the time it doesn't.
I mean, that's the kind of thing with scandals in
the really the kind of fascinating thing. It's not the
scandals that we know about, it's how many scandals that
we don't know about. The scandals that we do know
about are are you know, relatively speaking flukes?

Speaker 1 (38:47):
Right? So there's a lot of this stuff going on
that we never find out about. But with Jeffrey Epstein,
we do find out about it, and.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
We can get in We should get into this at
other at some other point, because it's also interesting that
Jeffrey Epstein's fatal flaw was that he resisted flying under
the radar.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
He wanted he wanted people to see him.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
He paraded around with these with these young women, young girls.
He he you know, in the birthday book, there's a
lot of reference to the to the to the articles
and they were almost back to back that were written
about him in New York Magazine, in Vanity Fair in

(39:33):
you know, two thousand and one, two thousand and.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
Two, the Mysterious Mister Epstein.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yeah, and you know, and it's just to continue with
the continue on with the digression. After that Ted conference,
he called me up, invited me to tea at his
house to ask me because I was, you know, I
was in the magazine business and a writer about the media,

(39:58):
to ask me about the media. And he told me,
you know, these these people had called him to write
articles about him.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
And what should he do.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
And I gave him the advice that I that I
give everyone because people are always asking asking this. I said,
if you don't want people to be to write about you,
don't speak to them. Reporters call you up, don't take
the call. Well, he ignored that advice, and in fact,
because he wanted this.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
You know, don't want.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
It because I'm going to get found out because I'm vulnerable,
But I do want it because I want people to
know who I am and what I.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
Am, and perhaps he enjoyed having this big secret that
was sort of hiding in planes side.

Speaker 3 (40:43):
Well, the Trump letter, the secret he did, he did,
I want people to know that I get all these
young girls, and I want people to know that I
have all this money, and I want people to know
to fly on my airplane.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yeah it's and again, I want people to know I'm
friendly with Donald Trump, who eventually goes on to be president.
I mean, we had on the Daily Beast podcast at
the weekend a model and a former friend of Jeffrey
Epstein's who talks about she turned up in a very
short white dress to seem He says, oh, you look
like a nurse. Let's find a friend of yours. You

(41:18):
know she can wear the same dress. I'll take you
to Donald's and he'll think I've arrived with two nurses
on my arm. And she describes sauntering from his house
on East seventy first Street to Trump Tower and he
arrives at So he's walking down Fifth Avenue as if
he's got a nurse on each arm, and he goes
into Trump Tower and it's a joke for Donald and
he's showing Donald off to the girls, and he's showing

(41:40):
the girls off to Donald and that this is not
a man who's hiding in. Well, this is not a
man who's being discreet. He's flaunting it walking down Fifth
Avenue in much the same way that Donald Trump says,
I could shoot anybody on Fifth Avenue, nobody would care.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Have I ever told you this story about please.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
Don't tell me? Doesn't it?

Speaker 3 (42:00):
Epsteinsin Trump Girls and the Dogs.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
No, maybe we should save it.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
I think we should save it for another day. We
should save it for another day. Michael. There's so much
more to get into. I want to go for a
further dive into that JP Morgan piece. But we have
planes to catch and automobiles and what's the other thing? Planes,
trains and automobiles. But as ever illuminating, and the net

(42:32):
is certainly tightening around the president, he is unable to
escape this Epstein narrative.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
Well, never say Donald Trump can't escape in the end.
But we'll see.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
Thank you if you have been for watching and don't
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(43:07):
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Speaker 2 (43:16):
I think you've got it all right.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
We'll be back on Thursday night. At what time do
we drop? You have no idea? Nine o'clock, nine o'clock
on Thursday night midnight on Apple and Spotify. Appointment podcasts,
appointment podcasting. And thank you to our production team. Oh,
don't forget, as our first lady would have us be,
even though the robots are coming for us, or the

(43:40):
roll boards as she says it, don't forget to be beast.
And thank you to our production team Devon Rogerino, Anavon Erson,
and our editor Jesse Milwood