27 - The NYPD CUNY Surveillance Program w/ Carter the Comic

Evan and guest cohost Carter examine the NYPD's post-9/11 surveillance program of CUNY's, and NY quad state-area's, Muslim student organizations and mosques--and the ensuing legal challenges to follow. 



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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Right, you're listening to the Brawlic under All Things Broke Network.
This is a New York history podcast inspired by The Dollar,
where I man who rents in affordable housing, father to
a wildcat that is semi legal and still not a

(00:20):
tax dependent, and man who always for some reason needs
dessert right before bed and I just can't find it.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
I know it's a weird thing and it's probably not
good for my sugar.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Intake reads a story to worldwide comedian who just got
back from a European tour.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Right, yes, sure, yeah, we got to do like Answerman, Belgium,
all across the UK and Barcelona and the UK. And
there's that's what's up.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
So you introduce yourself and just remind the audience you've
got no idea what the source on me about what's up?

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Everybody? I'm Carter Morgan, Carter the Comic International. I'm super
excited to be doing this podcast, although I have no
idea what stories are going to come up, So I'll
discover with you all.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Right, ballin.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
So the way this starts is we always yell a year,
So the year twenty eleven, we don't have eleven? Hey,
and I say they say, yere of the Lord j Town,
which is how they refer to Jesus as Jay Town.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
But I refer to Optimist Prime. We got it.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
We all got one oct and that's the Optimist Prime.
That's that's go to that we can always rely upon.
So you' have a Lord Optimus Prime.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
All right.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Jawad Rasoul is a student in the City college system,
my acunity system I alma mater, actually City college am.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
I supposed to guess shot by police. Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Okay, thank god, not thank god, he's alive.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
He's a lie at least allowed to tell the story.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Okay, that would have been a short brolic. All right,
Well that's it. No, but something did happen to him.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
He's part of a Muslim student.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
Organization, and the organization, as many organizations do, have extracurricular
activities where they.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Go on trips.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
So this time they were doing a white water rafting trip.
I can never say that three times, and I can't.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
I want to suck it up.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Whitewater rafting, which looks dangerous as fuck, by the way,
I don't know if you've ever done it.

Speaker 3 (02:32):
I stay on my nd man.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
We got soil for a reason we're here while we
got to jump out planes and bungee jump, but anyway,
sounds like it could be a bonding experience.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Went to a whitewater rafting thing and.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
He's picking up the group of people in the msouh
in Jackson Heights, and he picks up a guy including
that group named Jabron now Debroun.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
He keeps of the group.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
There's something that's kind of confusing about him because so
sometimes it sounds like he's saying he lives in Long Island.
Sometimes it sounds like he's saying he lives in Westchester.
He says he works full time, goes to school full time,
but he can always make any event that they have.

(03:25):
But at the same time, Dward has never seen him
in class, but he always sees him at the lounge.
So these raised some questions, but goes on the trip
with him, picks him up along with the rest of
this the students in Mso they go on the trip
and they come back the next day.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
A few weeks later, Dward gets a call from an.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
Associate press reporter that he is on a list of
people that the New York City Police Department think are
a part of terrorist activities in New York and later
he finds no surprise, Gabral probably was not Jebral. He

(04:11):
was part of what the NYPD did in the really
to this day, but we'll get into that later. Ever
since nine to eleven, especially and ever since the Patriot Act,
especially the expansions of it, were putting officers in Muslim

(04:32):
student groups, and in their interview one of the things
that he asked them was one of the things that
they documented, apparently for example, is that the amount of
times they prayed per day.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
But what Gerard said is that.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
He thought they prayed four times a day. So Gerard's like, yo,
you can't even do your narc.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
Job, right, what kind of like a lazy Muslim? I
like that. You're like, no, I mean, eighty percent is
good enough for me with passing school. It passes for me,
and it's an.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Eighty twenty ruw right, right. So he's like, no, we
pray five times a day. But also it's like, you know, that's.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
Just part of that.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
That's like stock, Like if there's like things that come
with being a Muslim, that's just like stock.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Everybody pray five times a day.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
And it's there and they're looking for like something as
if it's an extreme that it is kind of.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Like just yeah, so you know, some people don't use
electricity on the Sabbath. It's it's like, it's like really
the basic tenet of it.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
Yeah, so this this story drives me crazy for two reasons. Well, first,
should I let you keep going or should I tell
you what?

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Well, no, tell me because I'm going to go into
other stories too.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Okay, So this drives me crazy for two reasons. One
because if it was actually a terrorist that just needed
a trip, do you know what i'der staying like a guy,
like things have been kind of crazy. I just need
some white water rafting, blow off some steam instead of
blowing up some people. That's a good thing. We want that, like,
we want to humanize Nelson Mandela is a terrorist according
to the US, you know what I mean, maybe if

(06:13):
we listened a little bit and like let them go
on these little camping trips, things would be fine. That's fine.
But number two, it's because of this idea, this counterinsurgency,
this idea that like, yeah, these arrogant police officers and
government officials won't take the time to learn anything about
the people they're so afraid of will go and like

(06:33):
follow them around, you know, infiltrate their organization, mess with
harmless people for no reason, you know what I'm saying.
And Dodge can't discover that waste of money, Like that's
fine for those who you know. Like, so it just
bothers me because there's so much counterinsurgency in America, whether
it's like Beyonce Kendrick, Katy Perry Taylor Swift draping themselves

(06:57):
in US flags while we're using our bombs to take
out people. So like most of the Black Panther Party,
you know, or at least unless around half of the
Black Panther Party, it'll be an FBI informants at one point,
and it's like.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
It's that many.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
At one point it was like three thousand out of
like the eight thousand total memories. Yeah, I mean the
government was working hard, but uh, it's just it's just
leading the government benefits. It's just it's just weird to me.
What kind of things do you think they were getting
wrong with the Black Panther Party, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (07:27):
It's like, yeah, I know, it's it's like, damn, they
really like getting school lunches, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
What's in these lunches?

Speaker 3 (07:37):
Man?

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Is there propaganda like under the hydration under like you.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Know the side you know, Black Panther Party was doing
a lot of things. You see pictures of people holding guns,
which isn't American right last time I checked.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
But like, like I told you about the Husta situation
in Brooklyn.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
It in our second episode of The Brawlic it's suddenly
changed its tenor. Once it was black men with weapons
as opposed to white men with weapons. But yeah, man,
I just it's it's like they the simplest thing. It's like, damn,
they're playing praying five times a day.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
These other guys are praying five times a day. We
went to another cell in Connecticut. They're praying five. What's
going on every the radicalization is crazy. They're all praying
five times a day.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
And it's like it's almost like there's something that connects
all these people.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Some texts. If only I could find it that actually
says you pray five.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
We can't read that's doing it. It's it's lowd there,
it's wild. So it's loud that like we live in
this era. It's a low that so so this guy. Uh,
I take it, Rashul saw it was good, just the
regular guy. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Jawad is a City College student that's part of the
MS at City College, which is still in that active.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
As it was when I went there.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yeah, and then so they go, hey, we think there's
some terrorists Whitewater rafters. You know, you're a gang of
terrorists Whitewater rafters. What happens next?

Speaker 1 (09:14):
So this is this is seriously something I read so
whitewater rafting right that that's that's as bad as it gets.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
I mean, white isn't the name they're trying to get
rid of. Whitey. We're already we're already insurgent against white.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
First they came for the South Africans, and then they
came for the white Water Rafters.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Well wait a second, what if they do paintball and
I kid you not.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
Where is this ship?

Speaker 2 (09:44):
They called it some wild ship, they called it.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Called this Microsoft ware. It is probably run by an
FBI agent. Now that's saying that again to the plot
too much. We can't let them use Microsoft word. Mm hmmm, Jim,
just let me let me use work processing. You've got
spray paint bombers.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yes, yes, here we go.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
The documents show police were worried about militant paintball trips.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
Because because the only thing, so man, these people have
going for him is that they're white. If someone comes
with the wrong color paintball, you ruined the whole thing. Yeah,
you can't wash that off.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
What is a militant? Like what makes a paintball trip
extra aggressive?

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Because you know people go to paintball all around here,
the South, everywhere and fatigues.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
They take it seriously.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
They literally will dress up like in the military, people
do that.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
All the time. So what makes a paintball trip militant?

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Is it that you gotta there's a prayer in between
at some point.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
That fifth prayer is like for halftime.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
I mean the team battles. One of the teams had
police officer uniforms and no weapons.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, I so they they you know when the Islamic
Society found out about this. This is a separate incident
at Brooklyn College about the militant paintball trips.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
They were joking and I mean he makes a good point.
Kareem asat nineteen, a sophomore and filmmajer said, you know,
football's violent.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
They could say they're trying to teach Muslims how to hit.
There were Muslim football players. Yeah, I like he's joking.
He's like, why stop there, let's let's let's do all
the sports.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
M Okay. It's funny though, because it's all right. If
they do sports, they do you know, extreme activities like
paint bawling or whitewater rafting, that's a problem. But then
also if they pray too much, that's a problem. So
it's like, we don't want you to do nothing or anything.
So it's a weird place of not being.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
Exactly and we'll get to that later after this next story,
because next story actually touches on that. So again, let's
stick with Brooklyn coll which, so Mel arrived at Brooklyn
College raised. She has a story that she's raised by
a Turkish secular family. On her very first day of campus,
Mel converts to Islam.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
Just gets there from a secular family.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
First day, converts to Islam in front of a group
of Muslim students and just says she wants to explore
her religious roots. So for four years, this reporting says
she tagged along to Muslim events on and off campus.
She asked questions about religious and political beliefs, and they
were even you know, she always she always got invitations

(12:42):
to any meeting they were attending, and she even went
to picnics, get togethers, she visited their homes. It says
she even was served as a bridesmaid at a woman's wedding.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
But you know, some students are starting to question things.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
And they're like, how is she how is she being
you know, so involved throughout this whole time, and she's
she's always asking very specific questions about faith, and I
think later it mentions like specifically like suicide bombing, like
like very pointed questions. I'm just like just as like

(13:19):
the same thing with the four or five instead of
five prayers. It's like you can't even do you can't
even cosplay.

Speaker 3 (13:28):
Right, I love this. She's like, look, I've been a
Muslim for two semesters. Now when do we get to
the suicide bombing?

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (13:36):
So so look I found fine, we follow Halal page
on Instagram and like I want to go to all
those different restaurants with you.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
That sounds lovely great. In between that just curious, when
do we get the strap? When when do we get
the strap? So it's later outed that no surprise, mal
is not mel four you by the way, Like that's.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
Like you can't you can't come out of that. You
shouldn't first of all anyone going into that.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
And I'm normal, normal, but you know what I mean,
decent person, But you.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Can't come out of that a normal person either, because
for four years you like fucked up cosplayed to.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Be a religious extremists whatever. And now what you're just
you have a tup of our party, Like, what do
you do next?

Speaker 3 (14:28):
You leave it at home?

Speaker 2 (14:29):
You're on Etsy.

Speaker 3 (14:30):
Look, I look, I think I actually think that makes sense.
It's kind of like, you know, like all the US
soldiers that went to Afghanistan or Vietnam in Korea, they
just came back home and lived normal lives. There was
no problems, you know.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yeah, when they started saying they had problems, no problem.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Veterans, what was that pts Oh.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
We don't have firework.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Oh you don't do that here fireworks?

Speaker 3 (14:56):
Yeah no, it's real.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
So yeah, so what's what happens in this there's a
documentary by the way that I don't again I don't
know if it's the powers that be, but they're not
letting me access it. It was so hard for me
to even get uh.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Just to even find it.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
It's called Watch and this is this documentary is based
on this story and then follows to other students that
I'm trying to get to their stories because what happens
here is like there's a psychological issue now with the
students who just had a friend for four years, right,

(15:37):
you trusted a friend. I mean, think of all those
people you said there were like three thousand undercovers in
the Black Panthers. They think of all these things in
like very macro terms, but just think of the person.
There were three thousand people that somebody thought was.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
A friend that they can rely on.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
It was in someone's way.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
Yeah, So I think I think it's really interesting because
I I think, you know, I make fun of I'm
half white. I make fun of white people a lot. Okay.
I think it's a cursed culture and a curse society,
and I just think it comes from years of just
bottling up horrible things and not dealing with it that
it has to come out somehow, and so like you'll
be it with this male lady or whatever where it's like, yeah,

(16:19):
she had to pretend to be something she wasn't for
four years try and like lead people to do bad
things or try and like what's that word when when
someone like a no.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Whether it's entrapman the leading questions, but leading question is
a real thing too.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
Yeah, So trying to do that. But then, like you said,
like all the people that trusted this person and now
they're looking back on the red flags like someone that
just got cheated on, you know what I mean, Yeah,
exactly like oh dah, he did go to the club
a lot.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
You know, like right, but you know in the documentary,
some of the students now are asking, like what do
you do if you think a cop is First of all,
you may be over paranoid now and and and it
can cause divisions within your own community, because all communities

(17:09):
are diverse people of course, especially our white powers that be,
especially our Democrats, look at like all minority groups as
voting blocks that are one that do not have different
opinions like everyone does that do not have different ways
of worshiping, of resisting, of political you know, activism, all

(17:30):
kinds of things. So you're gonna, you know, maybe maybe
so saying did I see that fifth prayer?

Speaker 2 (17:39):
Are? I thought I only saw four?

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Like like like it's going to actually cause it. It's
the psychological harm too in the micro that this this
documentary focuses on with with these students who now have
to you know, interact with each other, go to different
you know, and still want to be a part of
these extra curriculs, but now are like, okay, who says

(18:02):
that's not gonna happen again, mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
And shouldn't we spotted earlier?

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Yeah, And so that's interesting to me because for a
few levels, Like on one level, it's interesting because there's
this theory that says, like, you know, we live in
a white patriarchal society where basically like old white men
have the most power, old rich white men have the
most power. But then they're too lazy to learn about
other cultures. Like you said, they think we're all the same,
so they just kind of forced their views on us.

(18:30):
And so one of the things that means is like
they target they target certain groups, and generally like black, Muslim,
anyone that's not white, you're a targeted group. And so
if you're one of those people in those groups, you
kind of have to understand that if like more than
five of you are getting together, you're probably being surveilled
at some level. And then so it's like you have

(18:51):
to kind of just operate with that knowledge of this
is the system we live in. They hate us, they're
gonna watch us, they're gonna try and trap us. You
know that's one what are you gonna say?

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, And I just want to say that doesn't mean
there can't be five good people that get together.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
It just means that it might be a bug somewhere.

Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, exactly, saying I think most people that get together
are good. And it's it's just literally like colonial old
white men that are like, no, it must be bad,
we must stop it, we must criminalize this. That's one thing,
because people get money off of criminalizing it, like you.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Know what I'm saying, like of course the prisons themselves.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
And then and then the second thing that so one,
you have to operate within this system and knowing, Okay,
they're going to be watching me and I look good,
so you're welcome. It's fine. But number two is if
you're doing something where you need some level of security,
like a black Panther party or something like that, you
gotta vet these people. Man. You gotta like, yo, your
story doesn't add up. You gotta go. There's little signs

(19:52):
you gotta go. It's like movement security is a really
important thing, and there's a solid book on it by
I think Jay Sakai. It's like a maybe like one
hundred page and he's just talking about movement security and
things to watch out for and one of those things
like even with like a black Panther party, you know,
they eventually got to the point where it's like there's initiations,

(20:14):
there's things that you gotta do to like earn levels
of trust, because if you don't do that work up front,
you get a mail at your wedding, you know what
I mean. I don't want to be the guy that
was like, yeah, my best man was an FBI informant.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Oops, you know, oh yeah, hey, what happened to Dave.
Dave's an FBI agent.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
And his name is John.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Uh yeah, yeah. So I always at this point, I'm
always like me and in the.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Group chat where I am the only one of the
palm colored complexion, Uh say, hey FBI Jim, we're just kidding.
Every every few times I say that, and I'm half joking,
not because I have no idea what the extent A
lot I mean, we find out a lot about I mean,
even this, everything's found out.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Posts, right, you can only do so much.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
So that's why you're saying like the Black Panthers did
with the betting. But another student R describes her fear.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
She's just going.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
By R saying the secure compliance. The state does not
have to watch. Oh, this is pretty powerful. Actually, the
state does not have to watch Muslims at every moment,
she explains. Quote, if Muslims are sufficiently afraid of the
state's power, they'll surveil and curtail their own behavior in
terms of what political thoughts they express, whether they participate

(21:40):
in things like this and mosques and doing MSO activities,
everything we just talked about, because they're starting to just
change their own behavior based on what being safe, being
what they think is safest thing to do.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, so this is this is this is where I
get in trouble because this is basically that self behaving,
the self respectability politics. It's basically just liberalism. And that
makes sense. We're saying, like, yo, we don't have any
real power in this system, but instead of actually targeting
the people that are making us powerless, we're target other

(22:18):
powerless people and get them to go in line, right,
and so it doesn't make sense. It's a losing game.
It will never work because the people that you're policing
yourself for or making yourself small for, don't see you
as human. They're going to keep spying on you at
white water rafting trips and things like that. That is
their strategy. And so I think part of how to

(22:40):
like live freely is like, you know, I don't know
you ever heard of John Brown? Of course I know.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
John Brown's we again, someone that we don't learn about
in school who is.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
Right right, And so people think I hate white people,
which is crazy. Again, I'm half white. You know, my
mom is white, you know what I mean, She's okay,
Like she's all right. But there are some really, really
really good white people. John Brown definitely one of them.
But he talked a lot about no is that absolutely yeah?
And he talked a lot about like like like you know,

(23:12):
I don't I'm not gonna listen to this unjust order
or like behave in these ways that you want me
to behave, Like these things are wrong. You guys are
being wrong doing wrong things. We're gonna stop it. And
so I to me, I think I want to find
more people like that because the government, the people in power,
I don't know if it's just the government, but the
people in power, and then through that government actively are

(23:34):
trying to scare you and make you afraid so that
they can do a lot of the stuff that they're
doing right now without resistance. Yeah, and so you know, like,
I have a lot of smoke, a lot of a
lot of distaste for liberals. And it's not like it's
their fault. You know, You've you've been educated in the
system that teaches you to make yourself smaller to not
get in trouble, and that's the way change happens. But

(23:56):
it's a dead end strategy and it won't work. And
I'm just like, like, if you ever see me on
social you know, guys, I'm Carter the comic on Instagram
and if you see me on going like, oh, I
hate liberals, but it's really just like, yo, I hate
the power system that's forcing people to turn on themselves.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Right, And I think that's an important distinction because I
forgot who said it. It was like be kind to people,
be like, what is it relentless? But I was Prince
oh else, Prince the guy, I hang on my wall.
I have a Prince. I have a Prince portrait. Uh

(24:33):
short king who just knew how to just separate, separate.
Thing I write about for Let's Not be Trashed is
just like how people like Prince helped me with my
own body image because Prince was like, yeah, I'm gonna
be short and I'm gonna be sexy and you're gonna
have to deal with it. And it's like, I think
that attitude is something that many of us who grew

(24:55):
up with any kind of insecurity.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
Is like something we gotta do. Like, so you haven't
seen something like me before? Great, mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
I used to used to think I felt like an
alien because of how I acted, was so short. But
I was like, yeah, look at friends, Princess like yes
I am, I ain't from here. Deal with me, deal
with me with the alien and anyway. But that kind
of does connect to what you're saying, because it's like
being being yourself and the scared in this case the students.

(25:24):
And to be clear, I have empathy for why many
people are acting this way.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Because you're scared.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
You just had someone you were like one degree of
separation from everyone in that group right is one degree
of separation from being on that list themselves.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yep, so it works. I have a lot of privileges,
at least until recently, I was an American citizen, born
and bred, you know what I mean, Like notre Y
is right. Yeah, I know, I know, but I but
I had a lot. I had some privilege at least
where like you know, like if you're a Muslim after
nine to eleven, I don't know that it's worth it

(26:02):
to be loud or whatever, like that's that's the role
of other people that are more protected and so right
until like maybe a week ago, I at least felt
like I was protected enough to be like, yo, let
me speak up, you know. So it's not yet, like
you said, it's not the fault of the people that
are being.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Silenced that they're silent, of course, And that's why I
have grace even if I disagree with some people and
how they move to get ahead in America, because they're
just saying this looks like the best path for me
and my family, and maybe I disagree with the amount
of capitalism involved in it, but I can this is
also the world country we live, and so I like,

(26:40):
So the point was you have grace for people, I
mean and be against systems. So I'm against like you,
I'm against a neoliberal system. Neoliberal systems got to go.
The people that maybe aren't doctrinated by it. We need them,
we need them in some capacity, and they're good for.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
You that has been miseducated.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, right, right, So that's why we need to By
the way, the Dollar is the only time the Macro
podcast is based on is the only time I've seen
a true depth, deep dive into John Brown. So happy
to send you their their podcast on him. I think
two episodes on him, and it's it's very good. I

(27:22):
want to make a show, yeah, you know, I do
Edinburgh Fringe and some of these international festivals sometimes, right, yes, yes,
super cool. I'm not doing it this year because I'm
broke now, so it's like all right, let me, let
me try and tour in the US whatever. Yeah, but
one of the things I might do is kind of
play about like John Brown, like a one person show,
and the goal is I want to do the whole

(27:42):
play and.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Never use the words white. I want to come up
with a different like like you said, like palm color,
snow bunny, like whatever. It is like throughout the whole thing.
But then I want to highlight, like throughout time all
these different groups of white people that have been like
really really cool, like the Quaker or you know, there's
just so many and we don't hear.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
A bad writer, right some of them, some of the
freedom writers were white.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
No one like and so there's been, uh, there's been
so many like dope people throughout history. It's just they
tend to not be the people in power shaping the narratives,
controlling the media, and so it's really weird. And I
don't have all the answers for like how you start
a movement like, but if you look at like Martin
Luther King or Fred Hampton, it seems like people that

(28:29):
are like, hey, black people, white people, Asian people, we're
not that different. We should maybe overthrow the capitalists. Those
people get assassinated. So I'm not going to say that's
where I stand out loud, but.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Uh yeah, and some of those assassinations. While I'm not
big into many conspiracy theories, I do believe that some
of those assassinations are still very questionable of who actually
committed them. I mean, for the longest time, we the
FBI wouldn't even really give the full.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
Story on Fred Hampton.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
And now we know that only one bullet went their way,
and that pretty much.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Sums it up for me.

Speaker 3 (29:11):
So and Fred Hampton was only twenty, right, Yeah, it
was a baby, you know. And a lot of these people,
like when you look at like just just I call
it the colonizer playbook, you know, but it's the same
tactics that they use. Like if you look at like
what's happening in Palestine or whatever, it's like, oh, a

(29:31):
lot of doctors, a lot of reporters, artists, teachers are
getting assassinated. In Iran, they just assassinated a bunch of
leaders and then a bunch of like nuclear scientists and teachers.
And it's the same. And like internally too, where you
look at some of these communities, it's like, oh wow,
our leaders keep getting taken out. Oh wow, we have
to start all over again. Oh wow, we got to relearn.

(29:53):
And so it's the same tactics all over. And I
think that's kind of the core of it, where it's
like when you look at what's happened then with like
these infiltrations into these Muslim student groups, Yeah, exactly, Oh, Wow,
that sounds really familiar to you know, like you're hearing
about like all these massad agents that have somehow infiltrated
like you know, uh, Lebanese networks and blah blah, blah blah.

(30:15):
And it's just like interesting that there's these all these
commonalities between these like huh, Europe instead are colonial societies. Weird.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Absolutely, you know, the NYPD has or had an office
in Tel Aviv mm hmm. And a lot of people
don't know. And by the way, I'm half Israeli. I'm
just anti Zionists.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
Yeah, people are people.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
Exactly, Yeah, And I'm just against many things about the
state that I don't always say publicly. But you know,
nothing has the right to exist on a knakaba, nothing
has the right to exist on the genocide of Native Americans.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Just like we are.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
So if your idea of right to exist as people,
people should exist people, states shouldn't the foundation the justification
of a state to exist should never be on the
backs of death, destruction, genocide, you name it.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
So, I mean, this is this is where I come from.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
But I still, you know, have to speak with people
on different sides of the politicals that including on Palestine,
and you know, it's it's tough to know when it's
like worth it and when it's not. But I will
say that speaking of surveillance, you know the Canary Mission.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
Uh oh oh, yes, I used to do this thing
right right, like ten jokes about them every day. I
was just trying to get on their list. I was,
I was trying my best.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
I always said, I just want a good picture.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah, like I'll give you the info, like just make
me look good.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
You know exactly. That is not a good picture, bro,
that's it. But yeah, that's in its own way, that
is surveillance too. I mean I would not be surprised
if they had involvement with some of these surveillance. I
wouldn't be surprised if Israel and their intelligence was involved
with some of these surveillance because you know, we have
so much connection with like you said, Masad and the IDF,

(32:12):
and it's like I say so, I almost feel it's
a fifty first state at this point, like we basically
treated ahead of our own interests many times. And just
all this to say that it's why I understand why
some students have this type of mentality like the one
sided in this documentary that it's like you you've you've

(32:35):
made me feel so paranoid and unsafe in the space
that's supposed to be for me and my people and
my religion that you've essentially created a self policing of
of ideology and expression, which is you know, which is
a terrible side effect, even if you're not on a

(32:55):
Canary list or on any of these Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
And so in the I think the the result of
that is basically assimilating into a burning house, you know
what I mean, you have to like, wow, that's all
the part that was Martin Luther Kingwood, So I can't
take credit.

Speaker 1 (33:12):
Oh yeah, he said, I may have led my people
into a burning building, but it's one of the yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yeah. And so you get these people like, uh, you know,
I'm not a Muslim person, but like, you know, I'm
sure there's a you know, there's a rich culture in
history that you might be afraid to talk about or share,
and you have to kind of pretend almost like with
a like mental illness and masking or like mental uh,
like being adhd or autistic. You mask. Yeah, And it's
almost like, oh, different ethnicities have to mask and assimilate

(33:40):
into this like fake uh sanitized, palatable right whiteness, you know,
and it's like that's boring, Like I don't want to
see the same movies all the time, like like so
even and you being like yo, you know, parties rarely.
I grew up short this and that these are all
interesting things that I like a lot of people would
cover up and say, hey, I've never been insecure before. Yeah,

(34:02):
and it's like that's not interesting, you know. And so
I think it makes our society worse that people are
self censoring, you know what I mean, Like I don't
want that. I want to live in a more like
wilder free place like this is supposed to be America,
you know.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
And we're definitely going to get to that in a
second one and get to people who also observed for
our country are surveiled. But you're right, I completely agree,
and I think that that's why I've grown more comp
talk about these things also because it might be the
only time that someone of that background here's another person

(34:41):
of that background, Because let's face it, like you said
about John Brown, for example, you know, if more white
people knew about John Brown, they would know there's enough.
It's one of the many ways to be white it's
one of you don't have to be Hillary or Bill Clinton,
m hm, George Bush, don't have to be on this

(35:01):
whatever one side or the other side.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Of the neoliberal line.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
There's all these ways that you can be white and
resist and be principled. So of course no one wants
John Brown is one of the most dangerous things for
people who know a lot of times, I'm sure adl
if I ever got any sort of platform, they would
think I was self hating. But you know, it's like, no,
I'm I'm for humanity, I'm against genocide. I think those

(35:28):
are very basic things I'm against. It doesn't matter where
I'm what my lineage is. I just I say my
metaphor is I look at humanity as a thread and
I just follow it wherever it goes, wherever that thread goes.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
So I think it's important.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
To talk about our background because then someone else might
be Okay, I'm of that background too, and I.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Can see that I can relate to that.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
So and this is why to go into now the
legal case, so we we had and just to sum
up what happened overall over and is still probably happening,
by the way, Oh that's.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
What I want to say.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
So, I want you to think about the statements we've
heard from a lot of people from these universities, and
this is the statement that came out from Yale's president. Okay, so, Yale,
you pen basically all of the Quns here, all of them,
all of the Sunnies. Basically, if you think of a
school in the Tri state area, good chance. The NYPD specifically,

(36:32):
and this becomes a legal case later, the NYPD specifically surveiled.
So that means that the NYPD was in Connecticut, the
NYPD was in New Jersey, was in Pennsylvania, perhaps even
not to the knowledge.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
We don't know. I talked for me to believe that
local law enforcement didn't know at the time, but it
is possible. So he says, I'm trying to get the
exact quote, but essentially, so think of the responses you
for it.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
And this guy, the president of Yale at the time,
who I think was Jewish, you know, a Jewish lest
Ning Levin said that the surveillance of Yale of you know,
the Muslim students, of the students based on their race, religion,
creed is the antithesis of what we stand for as
an educational institution.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
We are totally opposed to it. We don't want our police.
I still think it's stupid you have a police at
a school, but that's what they call them.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
QUNI has police too. They were not aware of it
and should not be. Like he from the back was
on the side of the students. Think how quickly institutions
like Columbia Cave. Think how quickly institutions today And this
was now thirteen years ago.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Like what has happened that I believe even.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
A Jewish school leader can at least say I'm with
my students who deserve their civil liberties and should not
be discriminating peace.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
What has happened in thirteen years that I didn't hear
that from these major universities.

Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah, well, so you've heard of the idea of elite capture, right,
tell me? So it's this idea of basically like buying off, bribing, blackmailing,
or otherwise coercing leaders of different groups. So that okay,
So like okay, like if you look at our senators
right now, I don't all the way by this, to

(38:24):
be honest, Like I'm not a fan of APAC, but
I don't buy that APAC really runs as much as
people say, I think they're very powerful and influential. Yeah,
but nothing compared to like the Christian nationalists and the
oil lobbies and things like that, Like they're big, they're
bad whatever. But it's something that people can kind of understand.
So that's why I'm starting here. No understand Yeah, so

(38:45):
APAC it's like, oh, they pay off politicians, they get
rid of politicians or primary politicians that don't do what
they want. So they influence the leadership of different groups.
Whether you're progressive supposedly or Democrat or Republican. It's really
about who has the money to sway or bribe or
blackmail or threaten or whatever it is those people to

(39:06):
do what you want. And so in the last like
ten years, we've seen that escalate. You know, there's more
money for that, there's more influence, there's more people that
have been primary and go, oh, I better watch out
for this. But it's been a thing in our country
for a long time, basically legalized bribery through lobbyan.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah, love being yeah, FBI blackmail doctor King.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
And then now you have even more control over like
the media and the schools. So again, like the the
elite institutions with the schools of like what's on the curriculum? Uh,
you know, so like Palestinian stuff is on my mind
right now. So it's like, oh, our Palestinian courses, like
do they often get dropped for whatever because of complaints? Weird? Okay,
So now there's whole schools of thought that people aren't having.

(39:52):
And so I think we're seeing that where you've had
years of Trump, You've had years of centrist Democrats shifting
everything to the right, and then the people on the
right going even more extreme to the right, so that
shifted a lot. You've had billionaires in these media congomerates
putting out the same kind of messaging America first, America first,

(40:16):
whatever it is, Israel first, whatever you want to call it.
And then and then you have like hype hypening. You
have a widening gap between like people with money, so
like the people that run these schools, and it's in
the business people on the boards, and then the actual
like general public or the people of these schools or
these institutions are supposed to help. So it's like you

(40:37):
have all those factors coming together, and then you know,
you might get like a Zoraon or somebody that comes up,
and it's like that's one person. That's one person like
Obama didn't make changes for like Obama got into office
and was like, oh yo, they might kill me or
whatever you say. I don't know, Like, yeah, I'm done.
And so I think that's what it is. Though it's

(40:58):
like elite capture.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
The country's moved to the right. And I think because
of like the Clintons, the Obama's the Bidens uh. And
then you have like the media narrative control. So it's
just this this this disious cycle leading to more and more. Uh.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
Yeah, that's but I think what Americans should know about
a pack that makes a pack different?

Speaker 2 (41:21):
And I agree with you, by the way, I.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
Believe it has major influence, but it almost creates a
narrative of its own. It's like it's like the Boogeyman
kind of Okay, but let's say there was an actor
that existed that that we believe is influencing towards right
wing zionist policies. Uh, and and will primary any candidate
that doesn't support them. I think once they have enough

(41:46):
of a foothold, if if the if they're media is
good enough, if they're bark is good enough, you know,
then we can make the bite even more than it is.
And that's why when politicians and say I can't even
say this, I'm like, I bet you can. And I
also bet if you all set it together, they wouldn't

(42:06):
be able to stand to it. If every week, if
everyone at least said we got to end the occupation,
if everyone at least said we have to end the
militarization of the idea from the West Bank, and if
everyone's like, we at least got to have ceasefire and
feed motherfuckers, I think we could have and and said

(42:26):
and let's do that and not have your tax dollars
go to it. Because the economic argument many times is
what finally gets to people. Because, as I've always said,
a dude in bumblefuck Alabama doesn't care about dionism, so.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
We're gonna one day.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
And this is why it's like you go on those
you see Tucker Carlson being more reasonable.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Than half of these Democrats. This drives me insane. This
drives me insane.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
Candice Owens, Tucker carlsid all of these highly intelligent people
that have made a career, in my opinion, being on
the wrong side of all these issues, right, and I
don't know why. I have a theory. I have a theory.
I have a theory, I doo. But so these people
come out and they're actually being like, you know what,

(43:15):
let's just say the truthful thing for once, because one
it gives them the counterculture and narrative. Two it makes
Israel the scapegoat later. So then after Israel, whatever happens
with Israel, the United States we're going to move towards
Christian or Christian nationalism.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
You know what I'm meaning.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
So you need a fallback option, and the Tucker Carlsons
are going to be the mouthpieces for that, you know
what I mean. And so it's really frustrating though, because
like I don't want to be seen like I'm agreeing
with the Tucker Carlson or canvas oways, you know, like
that feels itcky to me. But sometimes it's like, yo,
facts are kind of factual though, and it's like, so

(43:53):
it's that's tricky for me because it's like I will
never share, I will never ever share like anything out
of a Cannas or Terror Carlson's mouth. But I hate
when they have an argument that is correct.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Well honestly though, I'm for whatever helps the Palestinian people.
Ye yes, I'm for peace, but I've always said peace
cannot mean Palestinian docility. Peace can't mean that just just
we Palestinians got.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
To be okay with their current situation.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
No, so I am for To be clear, of course,
I'm for peace, but I'm.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
I'm right now, a great number.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Of people are suffering in a specific area, and I'm
for whatever benefits them the best. So if it means
some of it comes through Tucker Carlson and Cannie Own's mouth,
so be it. It's about it's about the net impact.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
And there is an audience that's going to hear that
that probably wouldn't have heard that if it was Zoron right.

Speaker 3 (44:54):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
So I think that they are real that there.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Is starting to be an opening of what what is
a little scary this.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
You're gonna have a very anti let's say.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Homophobic and sometimes actual anti semitism, not manufactured anti semitism,
but actual antisemitic, misogynistic party. But if they're right on
this issue, I think they think I might be able
to get enough voters that can compromise on this. Since

(45:32):
we're the only one saying yeah, basically, I mean there's
there's a few other candidates yet, Rashida tahlib elan Omar.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
But it's different if it's not someone who's a Muslim.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
Yeah, if it's coming out of a white man, right,
oh my god, that's that's valuable, right.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
So they but they realize that and the Candace Owe's
obviously it's different. It's a conservative base, not necessarily all white,
but some and it's like, okay, I can get some
people that felt this affected on this issue, and I
can get my base, maybe I can win. So I
think it's either they're both running, one of them is running,

(46:12):
or they're going to become sort of this platform along
with the Joe Rogans of the world where if I
want to be this type of I guess libertarian, maybe candidate.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
I got to be on their show. And they're realizing
that they could have that impact on politics.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
I think that's I think that is one hundred percent
what it is. And then now, okay, but can I
get into my weird conspiracy theory. Yes, So I think
I think, like what we're seeing in Israel, where you
have one group with a lot of power over the other,
of like Israel has a lot of power over Palestinians.

(46:51):
You see a lot of surveillance, you see a lot
of violence, and basically like an apartheid system, a tiered
system literally, and that's modeled off of like the United States,
and it's modeled off of other European cultures like Canada
and South Africa and Australia. And so what I think
is gonna happen is I think what the Heritage Foundation

(47:14):
people are pushing for, and they currently have power in
our government, is that system inside the United States. So
if you look at the rise of all the cop
cities and again, like you said, our police through the
gil E g Lee, I don't know how to say
it program go and train with IDA.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Right right.

Speaker 3 (47:31):
If you look at the amount of funding, I think
it's like twenty extra billion dollars that ICE is gonna
get now and funding. And if you look at ICE
and how it's operating, it operates a lot like the
settler groups operate in Israel. So they're not a police
that's comparison. And so now what's gonna happen is we're

(47:52):
gonna have millions of people that have been decutized through
ICE that wear masks and go around people up and
terrorizes people. Uh, you're gonna have police increase police in
because that's gonna be one of the only ways to
get a union job or to get like a six
figure paycheck pretty soon. And so we're just gonna have
like a basically like we're gonna have our version of

(48:13):
Israel much bigger, much larger, but a but a multi
tiered police state like that where right now at the
bottom is gonna be you know, obviously communists are always there,
but Muzzlims, Hispanics, black people soon. I don't know if
we're in there yet, but the first wave is like
immigrants and terrorists, do you know what I mean? And

(48:35):
so that to me is what's scary, is like seeing this,
seeing how we're moving, seeing how we're developing these cop cities,
seeing how we're like planning to deal with the unrest
that's coming from basically like our country, trying to become
an isolation in this country. Yeahere, we're like we're gonna
either rule by force or we're not gonna deal with you.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
It's a scary thing, man. I'm like I'm trying to
get out actually because I'm like, you know what, I'm
not made good.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
Well, yeah, I mean the civil liberties that we thought
we had are just becoming more and more conditional and
conditional to the point where, like you said.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Soon it's is it going to be?

Speaker 1 (49:15):
You have to be a blonde hair, blue eyed white
man who believes in the whatever Reich we want to
call Trump.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
So it's like, you know, you know, I have talked
to my friends all the time, you know, just give
me the when when the camps start. I just want
the shady spot and I want to be able to
play baseball, so hopefully I have a way out.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
I want to tell the jokes around the prison fire.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
You know, yeah, exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
But no, you're right, and you know it brings up
something because you're talking about Ice is sort of this
quasi almost paramilitary type thing, like the settlers are.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
In Israel I.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Remember do you did you ever read the publication Very
Smart Brothers. It started like ten years ago, it was
on then it became a part of the route.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
The author, Daca Young is probably the famous person from it.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
I've heard of dam Young, I haven't. I haven't read
his stuff yet.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Okay, well, look up old Erry smart bo his arcles.
It's classic.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
Whenever something would happen, just anything, the first thing I'd
say is what is VSB going to say about it?
But someone on this side I forgot who, and they
said how close is any white person to a police officer?
And it made me think, like right, because what was
George Zimmerman?

Speaker 2 (50:33):
Right? What was that?

Speaker 1 (50:35):
He basically said, I'm like, as you said, the word deputies,
And it's like right because George Zimmerman just deputized himself
and he got away with it. And it's basically what
the people killed Ahmad Aubrey did as well.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
They deputize themselves.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
And the settlers in the West Bank and Ice to
some extent, yes, they are a part, but they're they're operating.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
They're operating like without any common kinds of law.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
And people are, as you said, dressing up like them
because they can look like anyone. So how close is
and I'm not saying it's only going to be white men.
These things can be perpetuated by usually men, but lots
of different kinds of men, but generally lighter complexion men,
Like how close is anyone from literally saying okay, I'm

(51:23):
gonna be ice today, We're and.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
So and it. So this is where I get crazy,
right because I I you know, I read a lot
and I'm like, oh, these communists were onto something, because
like why why are they making the choices they're making?
Like why are they like why did the Black Panther Party?
Out of all the things they did, the school programs,
the the neighborhood protection programs, the breakfast programs, the shoe

(51:47):
program all that stuff that they did, the newspaper all that,
why was arm self defense? Uh one of the important pillars.
And it's like, oh, because if you don't these people,
these people that these vigilantes, even the police forces, they
will target you and there's nothing that you can do back.

(52:08):
But deep at their core, they think they're better than
they think they're more human then more worthy of rights
than the people they're targeting. So when it comes down
to like, oh, well then we're going to trade lives,
like if you come for me, I'm coming for you,
they won't make that exchange ever. And so the reason
why I'm like, yo, we really want to stop this stuff,
Like the peaceful thing is fine, but it's not going

(52:30):
to stop it if we really want to stop it.
Then those ICE agents that are like masking up, you know,
and come in. For our communities, they have to be
afraid for their life. That's the only way they go.
You know what, I might stay home today, and so
I mean, they have enough guns in America. We can
definitely make it happen. But it's we have to lose
that like liberal part of our brain that says, like, Okay,

(52:52):
the way to do this is writing your senator. That's
how we stop this concentration camp that went up in
two weeks.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
We write our Yeah, there's certain things that you could
write your senator about.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
This ain't one of them. Writing your senator is not
gonna help masks.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Essentially a mass vigilante force, okay, And we've seen communities
forcibly unite and.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Refuse Ice.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
And that's what I want to get to for the
so for the last part of this, Okay, So what happened,
So essentially there is as long as we have some
form of a court system, we do want to use
it because the way I look at it is, you know,
how Trump overloads us, whatever the fuck he's doing, that's

(53:39):
also a defense for us to do back. It's like
we're gonna overload you with lawsuits, We're gonna overload you
with paperwork and bureaucracy, and we're gonna do all that shit.
We're gonna find everything that we can file so that
it's gonna just make it so that, Okay, we can't
move this way because it creates all this shit we

(53:59):
got to do in order to make it lawful. So
it's gonna be probably called illegal. So we got to
at least move I'm talking from the oppressor point of view,
at least move in a different way, because if you
do that to Ice, if you do that to some
of these groups, and at the least, like you said,
some of them might stay home today. But also some
people organizing them might say, Okay, we got to at

(54:21):
least do this differently, and.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
It might save some people's lives. So so what happened here,
So what happened here is that.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
They got it got to the wrong group, as I
would say, like it got to veterans.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
And I'm not saying everyone.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Here deserves to be protected, but someone who can say
they serve their country, if they are under the same
type of surveillance, it's gonna ring differently. This is like
what we talked about with who says what, like Chucker
Carlson saying something versus someone else, a white person saying
something that can also be true for a veteran.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
Mm hm.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
So we had the case, all right, it's going up here. Yeah,
he was trying to get all these different names. Okay, yes,
said Faraj Hassan is a sergeant in the US Army.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Sorry about that. And he ended up being a plaintiff
in the case that at least legally, I don't know
how much.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
And again, the CIA can be involved and do all
kinds of things that they don't need, they don't need to.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Abide by this ruling.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
But at least he organed this case, and other people
who were specifically in this particular case in New Jersey
and surveilled by the NYPD, different imams and Muslim clerics
and people in community organizations rallied behind his case. So yes,

(56:00):
it's him versus the City of New York. Really it's
everyone that's been surveilled using these types of tactics by
the city, universe, by New York, including within the city
University of New York, but really especially in other states.

(56:21):
So Hassan versus City of New York. Happened because Sergeant
Hassan was in three separate mosques in New Jersey that
ended up being on these surveillance lists.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
And when he found.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Out about this, it's like three places I go after
serving my country to worship the religion that I'm fighting for,
if I am still being surveiled for the principles that
I'm supposedly fighting for abroad, for democracy and all these things,
and this is how my own country treats me. I'm
going to join and basically do a lawsuit with many

(57:02):
other religious groups, Muslim groups in my area against an NYPD,
and at first the judge threw it out. The first
judge threw it out saying that basically, basically he said, well,
of course they're allowed to go into mosques in nude.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
What's wrong with the NYPD going into a mosque in
New Jersey? And like the.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
What's his name, Bahar asked me. The legal director of
the Center for Constitutional Rights at the time, said, well,
it's not about that they went there, it's that why
they went there and what premise. And he's like yes,
but basically said, if you're stopping Muslim terrorism, you must
surveil Muslims.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
But the response and it's like that.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
That could mean anything. That's like, it's like this, it's
like Israel's right to self defense. It's like right, defend
your home, defend your village, don't.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Omit a fucking genocide. These are different things.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
It's a preemptive self surveillance or self defense surveillance of churches,
I get it.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
Like the preactive striking around.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
So, but then it got appealed and ultimately he won.
Hassan did win.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
And I want to put what the ruling settlement. So
it was a settlement that but the settlement had legal stipulations.
This isn't just a monetary settlement. It's it's a settlement
that comes with certain stipulations. And New York taxpayers should know.
Settlements come from our tax dollars. When the NYPD fucks up,

(58:44):
we pay for it. Yeah, we pay for it, not
just emotionally, we pay for it with our tax money.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
So if you don't want to tell, if you're complaining.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
About taxes, forget what Zorn's trying to do to help
you just live more affordably. How about don't pay for
the NYPD fuck ups. How about don't pay for endless
aid to Israel and endless weapons to Israel to kill uh,
you know, Palestini hungry Palestinian children. So like, how about
we start there when it comes to our tax dollars.

(59:14):
But this is these are the stipulations, okay, prohibiting investigations
in which race, ethnicity, or national origin is a substantial
or motivating factor, requiring articulable and factual information, trying possible
and lawful activity because before and if this isn't adhere
to still now, but before the ruling, all they had

(59:36):
to do was kind of was basically say, we have
hearsay that this person provided a fucking.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
Shoe for a terrorist.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
We have we have here say that the whitewater rafting
trip will create the terrorists cell that will create another
attack on the on New York. Lifted the NYPD's use
of undercover and in confidential formance situations with the information
so it cannot be reasonably obtained in the timely and
effective matter. By less intrusive means yeah, like four years

(01:00:07):
in being someone's bridesmaid maybe, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
But all right, So here's the thing that gets me
because I love this and I love this victory and
I think it's necessary. It's one part of a broader
set of actions, because it's like we keep finding out
about things that like different police departments are doing all
over the country or FBI or CIA, and it's like,

(01:00:33):
do does anyone think they've stopped? Like do you know
what I mean? Like, and so, what I love about
this is that it was a form of sabotage and
like junking things up and wasting resources. And that to
me is like, this is this is what I want,
is a former VET. This is what I'm gonna say.
I guess I'm always a VET. As a vet, this

(01:00:54):
is what I want.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
I didn't know you're a veteran.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
Yeah, man, I don't. I don't brag about it, you
know what I'm saying? Yeah, wartime all that. But I
think any way that people can sabotage the system, any
way that people can sabotage it, whether it's like slashing
a tire or locking a door that shouldn't be locked,
or unlocking a door that should be locked, or suing
the government or whatever. Like if there's many of us,

(01:01:19):
like taking an extra twenty four hours before you turn
in this paperwork that your boss needs to go do
something ice. Yeah, Like I just want to see all
Americans being ass as possible. Like let's see, like they
say we're lazy workers, no one wants to work. Let's
show them how lazy we are, you know what I mean.
Let's show them how incompetent we can be. Yeah, we

(01:01:40):
put our minds to it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
Right, motherfucker.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
If you can install someone in a quote unquote sell
that doesn't know Muslim play five times a day, then
you know what we're gonna outdo your incompetence. Yes, let's weaponize,
all right, there's no fucking copy here.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Now exactly like I wanted to. Like example, New York has, yeah,
some like thirty eight thousand surveillance cameras, just the NYPPS. Yes,
and I'm like, if people just started taking those out
a bb gun, a rock, spray paint, whatever, some wirecutters,
occasion whatever, that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
Happened to happen, Yeah, allegedly allegedly, if that happened to happen, Yeah,
you know I should.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
I should shut the fuck up. This is what I
should do. Like Carter is being arrested, Yeah, but no.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
He's just spitballing here, or paintballing or I'm a king
of people.

Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
I'm thinking of ideas exactly. But the thing is it
takes resources to replace those things. And so just like so, now,
if this, if this legal thing worked one, it's something
that other people can build off of. But if it
causes the NYP to have to take an extra like
you said, twenty four hours to go and surveil someone,
you maybe saved someone, you know what, And so I

(01:02:52):
have respect for that. And it got an update, it
got revisited, and the ruling was even stricter. So it
also included a civilian representative.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
That had to review this.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Now we know, for example, the CCRB is not as
powerful as we'd like it to be, but I still
think something like it should exist because it there should
be a civilian involved in here or else. You're it's like,
the conflict of interest is ridiculous. You're reviewing your own shit.
Oh and by the way, and the process of reading
about this, when there were protests to kick out NYPD

(01:03:29):
from the schools, some officers said, like the leader of
the sergeant's benevolent officer literally said, if they don't like
us so much, maybe we should just let one of
these terrorist attacks happen. Basically, we should just let them
get what they want. And it's like, that's great. You know,
you're taking a job where you just gotta you gotta
eat it. A lot of people ain't gonna like you.

(01:03:50):
That's kind of kind of what it is. There's other
jobs that aren't like that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
If you can't have one, the pressure of the three
months of training that you need to have your job,
you know, I think, go find a McDonald's to security
guard or something, you know what I mean. Like, dude too.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
Yeah, So removing from the NYPD website the discredited an
unscientific radicalization the West Report, Yeah, that's back. When they
try to academic eyes intellectualize this shit, it gets bad too,
because then you get like the bullshitters of the Jordan
Peterson's of the world, that Ben Shapiro's of the world,
who like can sound pretty smart, and Alan Dershowitz.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
You know who is the guy, but we know the
damage he's.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
Done, So I'm glad. So things like that do matter.
But then they said the civilian representatives specifically authorized to
review not just the opening or extension of an investigation,
but also how they are conducted. In addition, the civilian
representative is specifically authorized review the proprietary use of the

(01:04:54):
extension of use are undercover officers for confidential informants, So
it at least is moving the knee further to curtail
the operations of the NYPD. So, like you said, they
at least have to think a little bit more about
what they're doing and maybe at some point just say
I don't feel like doing this anymore, even if it's
not a laziness and incompetence being with saved someone.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
I'm for that net benefit.

Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
One hundred hundred Like inside, I think that's the weird thing.
I'm a communist. If someone wanted to give a bunch
of fat, lazy people money to do very little, I'm
for it, you know what I'm saying. But I'm against
giving people money to hurt people. Like that's my line,
you know, so.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
Very true, very true.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Well, so that's that's the story of how all of
these things united, especially during the twenty tens, from the surveillance.
I mean, there's many more examples, but these are the
two cases, plus the the core case I want to
get into because I think it does show that, you know, sorry,

(01:06:00):
running law and battery but I got enough for the
rest of it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
I think it does show that we really have.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
To be vigilant on many fronts because you know, these
people who are in these student organizations. It's a line
between like paranoia to the extent that you can't even
enjoy sharing your culture with someone. You can't even enjoy
being in an Mso you can't even enjoy being at
a masjib, you can't even enjoy being with other people

(01:06:31):
in your community. But it is good to know these things.
It is good to be informed and to know that
these things are happening.

Speaker 3 (01:06:40):
Yeah, I think I think everybody should read about cointel
pro the program or counterinsurgency general concept, because every single
American is being targeted by this kind of propaganda. So,
like when we look at the news and there's certain

(01:07:01):
issues we don't talk about ever, and there's certain issues
that we highlight and blow up, that's part of it.
You know, when are our favorite artists are draping American
flags and like trying to bring back Americana, that's a
part of it. When you're afraid to like be yourself
as a social group, it's a part of it. And
so like we really got to like look at it
and understand, like, oh, there is a war going on.

(01:07:23):
It's not a race war, although it looks like one.
It's really a class war, you know. And then so
like what are the tactics that they're using? How do
we combat them? And my personal thought is that we
should all do as much as we can to kind
of slow down or gunk up or mess up that system.
So we've got some lawyers that are intelligent and they
know how to navigate that system, so gunk that up.

(01:07:47):
You know. We've got some people that aren't afraid of
direct action. You see the people that are trying to
stop cop City and stuff like that. How action in
the UK, like those people that are trying to stop
war like yo, respect And then you know you and me,
we're our bro. So it's like our job maybe is
to talk about these kind of things. Like you said,
you like, here's what you said. You have a men's podcast,

(01:08:08):
what's the yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
And I do a men's group two yeah. So right now.
The platform I started with one of my.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
Friends called Let's Not Be Trash, and it's response to
men are trash, So we're like, let's not be that.
But it's about masculinity, but an offshoot. But my other
friend is going to be called million dollar question. And
that's because the Democrats, of course, the bastion of great ideas,
spend twenty million dollars after the election to just understand men.

(01:08:36):
Why are straight? Can I understand straight men better? And
it's like I was joking with my voice Stefanos on it.
It's like give them the money, Like if you want
to help those men, put the money into the things
that helps them, Like if you want to understand them better. Yes,
some men feel they're losing their purpose and work well.
They also have a lot of debt. Help them with

(01:08:57):
their debt, help them make their lives more forward.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
That's went crazy. People went crazy over at Trump because
he dropped a six hundred and fifty dollars stimulus check. Yeah,
and like people aren't expensive, Like you're saying that twenty
million dollars could have got a lot of support. You're
one hundred percent correct, man.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
Don't spend it on like just a bunch of men saying,
I mean the Republicans, this is because.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
This is what they mostly got.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Just looked stronger and it's like great, Okay, it's not
your job to look or be strong whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
You know, what your job is, Okay, find these.

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Strong your principles, right, and it's your job to fight
for the working class.

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
It's your job to do shit. So I'll vote for you,
not so I can say the right thing so you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
Like me, and then for me it's it's like it's
such a dumb backwards way. So that's why we call
it a million dollar questions. Like apparently these questions are
worth millions of dollars, so we're.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
Gonna just ask them now and just hope we.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
Get some of that, see, And I respect that because again,
like I think as an artist, that's our job is
to be loud, to be vocal, and to help our
audience see biggest right.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
So thank you so much for this.

Speaker 1 (01:10:03):
I enjoyed doing this with you and look forward to
doing more stories in the future. And just to close
it out, just what's next for you? You went on
this global tour se other good people.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
What's next?

Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
Yeah, I'm actually sending up a US tour October November
time frame, so super excited about that. You can find
out more at the website Carterthecomic dot com. And what
I'm really trying to decide right now is if I'm
gonna alternate between doing some CrowdWork heavy shows and some
material and the material ones or just do one or

(01:10:35):
the other. So come out. It's gonna be a good time.
It's probably the death of cool tour. Death of cool tour.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
Death of cool. I like that. I like that also,
you know, the death.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
Of anything, because anytime something sounds good. I forgot who
said it, but it was like, there's different levels and
by the time it gets to White Finance pros, it's dead.
That's what they That's what they said. They said, that's
the final level.

Speaker 3 (01:11:00):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
I think it was with wolf and I think it
was with the term wolf. Like the second I heard
White Finance pro saying it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:07):
It's done a cultural credibility. Yo, this is a good time.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
You're definitely invited back.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
And also anything you want to write, happy to put
it on. Let's not be trash, okay. So, so any
any ideas you have about it's about. It can be
about race, because it could be about masculinity, it could
be about sex, it could be about all these things
because all these things intersect and that that's what we
want for the platform.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):
Yo, I love it. I write a lot. And then
the other thing is, I've got a bunch of camera equipment.
I'm back in the stations now, so all of my
stuff is here.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
Cool.

Speaker 3 (01:11:43):
So later we're trying to do some like comedy stuff
or make something.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
All right, I really appreciate that that man. We gotta
we gotta put resources together. That's what it's about, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
I see you have take