March 31, 2025 • 41 mins
In this She Builds Nation special episode, Coty Fournier, shares her inspiring journey from construction management student to senior executive and founder of a successful company. Listen as Coty discusses the seven qualities that propelled her career, her discovery of a passion for the construction industry, and her superpower of teaching and mentorship. Gain valuable insights on overcoming challenges in the industry as a woman in construction, and discover emerging trends that will shape the future of construction. Don't miss Coty's advice on maximizing field experience and the importance of bridging the gap between the office and the field.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, i'mlu Perez, your host of The Builder Upper Show,
a podcast where we talk about everything in construction and trades.
We have a special co host today, Jennifer Hires, who
will be interviewing Women in Construction for Women in Construction Week.
Hey Jen, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hi lud, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Who is your special guest today?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
All right, welcome to the show, and today I am
absolutely thrilled to welcome our guest, Cody Fournier. And Cody
actually started with a degree in construction management from Michigan
State University. She knew nothing about construction, but was intrigued
and was hired to be a field engineer. And she
(00:47):
was saved by seven things humility, grit, a thick skin, intuition, empathy,
first principle, reasoning, the ability to ask one thousand and
more smart questions, and initiative. And she progressed through greater
levels of responsibilities on up to senior executive roles and
(01:08):
founded a company that was successfully acquired.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
In all of those things, then.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Two additional things happened. She fell into a deep state
of admiration for the construction industry and discovered her superpower.
Cody welcome to the show. I'm so glad to have
you with us.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Well, thank you for having me Jennifer. It's a pleasure
to be here, especially during Women in Construction Week.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yes, thank you for that plug there. That is why
we initially got together to do this interview. And Cody,
I'm really excited just to jump in. There's so many
questions we were talking even before the show. I think
that we could have kept talking, and we finally had
to decide we need to start recording. Share your journey
(01:54):
into that construction industry and what did inspire you to
pursue construction.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Well, it's an interesting story, I'll tell you. It started
back in my journey at Michigan State. So when I
was enrolled there as a freshman, I wasn't sure what
I was going to major in. And way back in
the day before the internet, they had a catalog of
majors you could choose from. And through those hundreds of
(02:24):
choices that I was flipping through in that catalog, I
noticed there was a ranking of all of the majors
at the back of the catalog by average.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Starting salary out of school.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Nice and construction management was really high on that list.
I think it was number two, if I'm not mistaken.
So I was like, what is this this thing that
you can make good money? And I thought, oh, let
me see what that is.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Let me learn more about it.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
So I made an appointment with the advisor of the
and learned a little bit more about it. I learned
that half of the classes were in the College of Engineering.
They were like technical oriented college classes, and then the
other half were business and management courses of course from
the College of Business. And so at this thought, it
(03:19):
is going to be a well rounded education. If nothing else,
I'll be getting the business and the technical sides of things.
And I thought, if I could do well in this,
like actually be good at it, then perhaps I could
write my ticket in a really interesting career that apparently
pays well and also probably has very few women in it.
(03:41):
So I thought, maybe there's an opportunity for me to
kind of stand out and be unique, assuming I could
do it well. So I kind of took a chance
on all of those things. It wasn't a super huge
passion or anything like that. It was more like a
pragmatic decision, and I was hoping that if I gave
it a try and I turn out to be good
(04:01):
at it, that maybe that decision that I had made
with my head would allow my heart to follow over time.
And that's what happened, because, as you said in your
introduction of me, I quickly fell into I would say
probably by year five or six in my career, I
(04:22):
fell into a pretty deep state of admiration for construction workers.
It really is an incredibly unique thing to be in
a supervisory role on a large scale construction project and
be up close and personal with hundreds of people who
(04:44):
are building a building, and you have any kind of
role to play, to have any contribution in that whatsoever.
When you don't grow up in the trades or don't
grow up wearing a tool belt or swinging a hammer,
which was certainly the case for me, So to be
anywhere near up close and personal watching all of these
(05:06):
men and women do something extraordinary under extraordinarily difficult circumstances,
it's really humbling, and it's easy to fall if you
pay really close attention. It is easy to fall into
a deep state of admiration and respect for these people.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
And that's what happened to me.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah. Absolutely, And so in the introduction I said, you're
saved by seven things right, humility, grit, thick skin, intuition, empathy,
first principle, reasoning, the ability to ask a thousand smart questions. Yes,
having that initiative. So is that what you found in
going in the construction industry with just being intrigued right
(05:47):
out of college? Those really saved you through?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
They really did because and I say those things saved me,
And I know what you're talking about. You're reading from
a very popular hosts that I put on LinkedIn where
I'm trying to help construction companies to understand when you're hiring.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Rookies like myself, right, who.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Are coming into the industry with little to know experience,
which was certainly the case for me, Then if you're
not hiring someone based upon their proven track record, right,
their proven experience, then what should you hire them for?
What are the qualities of which you should hire someone for?
And that's where I came up of that list of
(06:32):
seven things. I tried to look back upon my own
career as well as others that I have seen do
very well in the industry despite coming in with very
little experience like myself, and I kind of ended up
discerning that list of seven qualities that if you can
at least bring in those things, you've got a shot
(06:55):
at being successful.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
You've got a shot at learning.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
On the job. In the what will often be, to
be honest, will often be quite a sink or swim
kind of environment. It's extremely difficult to teach people how
to build. If you cannot learn it in a book,
you cannot learn it in a classroom. It is very
much an on the job training learning kind of experience.
(07:20):
But what I'm trying to help people in the industry
to understand is if you come to that rookie experience
bringing with yourself some grit, some determination, like you were mentioning,
some ability to ask really good questions and lots of questions,
and have humility, but have that humility backed up with confidence,
(07:45):
like meaning, I need help. I'm not sure what the
right answer is, but I'm confident I will learn quickly
if you tell me like that kind of thing. That's
what I mean by humility backed up with confidence. So
all of those things that you met turned out to
be the thing that allowed me to survive those first
(08:05):
few rookie years where I had very little practical experience
to draw from, but I had some of those good
qualities that made my potential grow.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
So is that advice, those seven things, advice that you
would give someone starting a career in the construction industry today.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Yes, not only would I give that advice to the
to young people coming into the industry to work on
those seven things right under the understanding that you will
learn how to build once you get here, but bring
those seven skills to the table.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
And then also kind of conversely, I'm saying two construction companies,
when you are looking to hire relatively inexperienced.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
People, and therefore when you're interviewing them, you don't get
to talk about very much relevant experience because they don't
have any yet, right, They're just they're rookies. Maybe they're
like me, and all that they have as a construction
management degree and pretty much nothing else to talk about.
You have to remember when I showed up as a
field engineer working for Turner back in nineteen ninety one.
(09:10):
I showed up on a twenty five million dollar job
as a field engineer with mint in box, brand new
boots out of I mean literally having never spent time
on anything like that, which, by the way, side note
I do not recommend you do that do not show
up at a job sign with brand new boots. That was.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
It.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
But my point is to companies who are hiring rookies
like myself back in the day, what I'm saying is,
look for those seven qualities because if you can hire
someone who can show you that they are someone who
has a personality that is gritty, that has tenacity, right,
this shows an awful lot of initiative that has your
(09:59):
humili backed by the confidence all of those things that
we're discussing.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
If that are what you.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
Should be looking for when you're interviewing somebody that has
very little experience, because if they bring those other things,
you can teach them.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, yeah, you sure can. So that's one thing that
happened to you, right, You fell into this deep state
of admiration through the construction industry. You know, you learn
those those seven valuable things tell me about your super power,
then you discovered your super power as well.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Eventually, yes, eventually, over time. What I realized is, have
you ever heard the There's a famous phrase by doctor
Maya Angelou. She's famous for saying, when you learn, teach,
which is her way of saying, right, like, one of
the best things you can do for the world when
you learn something good or bad. Right, Yeah, it's great
(10:53):
if you can share what you learn with other people.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
And also, I think part of the reason she.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
Has may popularized that phrase is a compliment to those
people who can do it. So meeting great teachers are
not a dime a dozen. They are not. They are
rare birds, in my opinion, and in the construction industry
really really hard to find. So when you have really good,
(11:26):
solid construction industry experience, and you also happen to be
a good teacher, and you have somebody who can impart
knowledge and wisdom and experiential insight into others, and you
have a willingness and a capability to do it, then
(11:47):
that in our industry is a superpower. And that's what
I learned over time that I was good at doing
and I kind of discovered it.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Dentdely really throughout my career.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
But what happened is I realized that I had this
natural propensity to when I learned, when something happened to me,
I had this natural propensity like doctor Maya Angelo's quote,
when you learn teach, So I had this kind of
habit that when I would learn something, maybe it's a
great thing that I learned, like a good lesson, or
(12:24):
maybe it's a bad thing that happened and it's therefore
a bad lesson. My natural behavior was to tell other
people about it. Oh, this happened to me. This look, Oh,
this is what I learned. And it was just my
natural behavior. And then over time, what I realized is,
this is a calling for me. This is something that
(12:46):
I enjoy. This is something that I can contribute to
the industry. Right, this could be part of my legacy.
So slowly, over time I started looking for all kinds
of ways of which I could transfer my own knowledge
and my own experience to other people. And it just
(13:06):
showed up in all kinds of ways, whether I was
being paid to do it or not, even when it
wasn't my actual job description. I was always looking for ways,
little opportunities, little passion pet projects on the side where
I could share what I had learned with others. And
so it has manifested itself over thirty years in a
(13:30):
whole variety of ways, from training and development workshops that
I would create for whatever company I was working for,
even though that wasn't my job description, from that to
speaking countless times at industry associations and doing keynotes and workshops.
I basically created a whole like kind of professional speaking
(13:53):
career on the side of my career that was always ongoing,
writing articles for or industry publications. I wrote a book
that's been talk about this accessful. Yes, let's talk about
let's talk about this book. Okay, So yeah. I published
a book called Inside Construction's Most Valuable Players MVPs, which
(14:15):
is like a guide. It's like a career development guide
for people that come into the construction management industry who
are young and ambitious and are kind of looking for
intelligent insights for strategies, if you will, to fast track
their career towards the executive ranks of the industry, along
with some very helpful insights to succeed once you get there,
(14:40):
like where I'm talking about avoidance of common pitfalls that
happened to people when they reach the executive ranks, and.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
All kinds of things like that.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
And so just writing my book and going on a
book tour and talking about all the things that are
in it, as well as a ton of mentoring things
that I I do on a regular basis, whether it
be like this podcast we're having right now right or
the countless other podcasts that I've been a guest on,
(15:09):
as well as I have my own podcast that Michigan
State University asked me to host for mentoring construction management
professionals across the country to all kinds of executive coaching
and leadership development that I do in my career in
my job as a senior consultant with Well Built, it's
one of the things that I do. So that's a
(15:32):
really long answer to your question. But slowly, over time,
that's the superpower that I realized I had. I realized
that is my greatest contribution to the industry is that
I have a desire and a capability and a willingness
to share the things that I've learned over the years
and develop teaching skills that are pretty rare in our industry.
(15:56):
Because I say this all the time, Jennifer, but I've
relieved strongly that peaching at its essence is a performance art.
And so that's what I mean by not everybody can
do it. And so when when you find people in
the construction industry, I'm certainly not the only one, but
(16:17):
when you can find people in the construction industry who
have deep, deep, relevant technical knowledge. Right, they have all
the hard skills that are available in the industry. But
then and they're combined with really good soft skills that
include the ability to teach what you know. That's a
pretty small intersection of people. So when yeah, so when
(16:40):
construction companies find someone like that, they're really valuable.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Hold on to them.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Where can listeners find your book? Where they order?
Speaker 4 (16:49):
You can look, you can search for it looks like
this and you can find it on Amazon easily. Just
search under my name or search under the title which
is inside can Instructions, MVPs, Most Valuable Players, or search
for my name and you'll find it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah, no, definitely I wanted to put a plug into
your book, you know, especially like you said, being that
teacher and where people can learn from you. As you
said in the introduction, we are in the week of
celebrating women in construction. So let's shift gears and let's
talk about women in the conduct construction industry. So what
(17:29):
unique challenges do women face? And then how can those challenges,
how can we actually address them?
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Yeah, it's a great question, and you can imagine over
the past thirty years, how many times. I've been asked
that in various forms, because let's be honest, when I started, Jennifer,
there were so few of us. Yeah, they're really really rare.
There are very few few women in the industry, particular
in operations oriented positions, and particularly in the field. I
(17:58):
think that we're still a huge minority in field operations
for construction companies.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Without a doubt.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
But as you can imagine, it's grown substantially since I
first started, So there's a lot more women now than
there was. I'm sure I was one of a handful
back in the nineties, and so that's part of the
reason why I went on the journey that I went
on that includes all of this teaching and mentoring and stuff,
(18:24):
is because I've been attempting to become the role model
that I needed when I was young. You know, I
did not have that. So fortunately for me, I had
a wonderful circle of men around me who helped me tremendously,
but there were very few women to have had his
(18:46):
role models in my career. So hopefully I'm leaving a
well marked trail for the next generation of women. But
to your question about unique challenges and things like that,
I'm sure, I am sure that everyone can imagine and
empathize that some of the disadvantages of being women, of
(19:07):
being a woman in the industry are real. I mean
they're real. They're not imagined. They they are real. It's harder,
I would say, on average, it's harder, you know, all
other things being equal, it's harder to be a woman
in the industry. And I and I think i'd be
(19:27):
laying false claim to say anything other than that. So
that's kind of the bad news part is that you
know it's harder. It's it's just not easy when you're
a minority in any situation. However, the good news is,
I think number one, it's getting a lot better. It's
(19:49):
getting a lot easier. It certainly appears to me to
be that way that it's getting easier. And also some
of the women that I have mentored along my career
have expressed less problems and less concerns than I experience.
So I think there's a positive trend, which is good,
at least from the conversations that I have had. So
(20:09):
that's my anecdotal evidence for that. But the other good thing,
when it comes to thinking about overcoming challenges in the
industry is I think the good news is that the
majority of the challenges that need to be overcome are
in your control. So meaning, I think the biggest challenges
(20:34):
are not related to your gender. They're more related to
your personality.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
All right, let's unpack that.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Yeah, so it's like your personality you have.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
I mean, I know we're all pretty hardwired to be
the personalities that we are. But I also think we
can agree that we all can work on our behaviors, right,
We all can work on slowly changing some things if
we desire to. And so I think I think it's
just helpful to know that. I think success in the
(21:04):
construction industry is more personality.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Specific than it is gender specific.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Also, the biggest discrimination I see in the industry is
your age, not your gender. So when I say age,
what I really mean is age slash experience level. Okay,
like under the assumption that the older you are, the
more experience you have is what I meant. So I
(21:34):
really I probably should correct myself and I shouldn't say age,
I should say the amount of experience you have, So
meaning there is I think there's more.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
There's more difficulties by that are determined.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
By your personality, and that are determined by your experience level,
and they are by whether or not you're a man
or a woman, that type of thing. So the good
news is as you become more experienced that that challenge
of not having enough experience will reduce. That's the good
news is as you become more experienced, that problem will lessen.
(22:11):
But the other good news is, again my opinion is
the biggest challenges.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Are personal the focused. So if your personality, I don't
care whether you're a man or a woman.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
If you're very assertive, if you're very curious, you have
the grit and tenacity like we were talking about earlier. Yeah,
you have the humility, but backed by a lot of
confidence to go, you know, belief in yourself right to
accompany the humility, and you have a demonstrated respect. That's
(22:51):
the other thing in the construction. And any man or
woman can do that. So that's why I'm saying it's genderless.
The most important thing you can bring to the field
is a demonstrated respect for those people who are out there.
If you bring that, you're halfway Home's you overcoming what
(23:12):
will be some some natural pushback that will come at
you because novelty is always recognized, right if you're some
of these people. Yeah, some of these people have never
worked for a woman's superintendent in their life. So give
them a hot second. Yeah, let them take it in.
(23:35):
And all I'm saying is, if you approach it, if
your personality is such that you are assertive, you are
humble but confident, you are demonstrating respect for all these
people who have far more experience and more knowledge than
you do. All of these things that we've been talking about,
can we not agree they are genderless?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (23:56):
So that is why I say to people, I always
validate their concerns about what it's like to be a
woman in the industry because I think it's important to
validate people's feelings and understand that there's.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Going to be a little bit of intimidation.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
There, no doubt about it. But I hope it's helpful
for women everywhere to know that your success will be
far more driven by your personality. That's good, then it
really your gender. Yes, And to also remember that the
other biggest thing that is hard to overcome is lack
(24:34):
of experience. But just keep that in mind. With every
year that goes by, you chip away at that problem.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, Yeah, it definitely does.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
And last but not least, if I could offer a
piece of advice. Another thing that I feel helps women
tremendously in the industry, and I have had many conversations
with friends other women in the industry where we talk
talk a lot about this behind closed doors, so I'd
love to share, is that the more actual field experience
(25:08):
you get. And when I say field experience, I mean
that you are in roles where if you work for
a trade contractor that you literally work in the trades,
or you work your way towards being a foreman, or
you work your way towards being a superintendent, where you're
in some sort of field leadership position, and if you're
(25:31):
on the general contracting side of the industry, then that
means you are a field engineer, assistant, superintendent, superintendent, those
types of titles. What many of us very successful women
in the construction industry know to be true is that
the more actual field experience you have, the easier it
(25:54):
is to overcome some of the objections because many people
in the industry will challenge those who don't have enough
real field experience, and that is a legitimate argument. It
is so Therefore, the best defense is go get some. Yeah,
(26:15):
you see what I'm saying. Absolutely absolutely go get some
and make that objection go away. You don't have to
tell people all the time. You don't. I don't even
have as much field experience as I would like. I mean,
in case you ask me at some point, let me
pre empt a question you are likely to ask me.
At some point. You might ask me, well, if I
(26:36):
could go back and give advice to my younger self, right, like,
what would I.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
The next question?
Speaker 4 (26:43):
Okay, what would I do differently? So that would be
one of my responses. Is even though I was fortunate
to start my career in the field and get some
really good, solid field experience, one thing I know for sure,
Jennifer is I've never, ever, ever, ever heard a senior
level executive in the construction industry ever say the words
(27:05):
I hate I got too much field experience. Yeah, Like
that's just like not a thing, okay, So meaning you
kind of can't get enough, right, Like it will always
be valuable to you. Yeah, So that's just something to
you know, for everyone listening to realize that that's something
that's within your control. So one of the ways you
(27:29):
can make sure that you kind of even the playing field.
If you are a woman coming into the industry or
already in the industry and working your way through your career,
one of the ways you can even the playing field
is to maximize your own amount of field experience. If anything,
I wish I had more right to answer your question
of what I would do differently. If anything, I would
(27:51):
have stayed out in the field even a little longer,
just to make sure that I was maximizing my time
out there and therefore minimizing the objection of me not
having having enough. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
It does. Yeah, you continuing to learn and getting again
more valuable experience.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yes, exactly so.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
And keep in mind, again that's a genderless comment that
we're that we're that we're talking about right now. Most
people on the construction management side of the equation don't
really have enough true field experience, men or women. So
that's just an example of the kind of thing for
any woman that's listening and you want to get ahead
(28:34):
and you want to earn respect, go out there and
be one of the people who is gaining more and
more and more field experience. And just keep in mind again,
you don't have to stay out in the field long
enough to become, say, a world class level project superintendent
or something like that. I certainly did not accomplish that,
(28:56):
but I know some women who have, and they we
are incredibly good at it, incredibly good at it. So
I know that from experience that even if you do
not make the career choice that leads you to becoming
a world class level superintendent, for example, the next best
(29:20):
thing is to spend enough time in the field working
underneath one of those world class superintendents, so that over
time in your career, when it comes time for you
to be responsible for hiring superintendents or helping to manage superintendents,
that you will know from your own first hand experience
(29:42):
exactly how one should think and behave.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
That's good advice as good advice. Yeah, again, you've learned,
and now you're able to teach based on that experience
that you have gained in the field and in the
industry itself.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Yeah, but if I had to do over I'd get
even more field experience. So that's how much I'm trying
to drive home that point.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
That could be in any industry. I mean it really can.
You can apply that to many, many many industries. So
just overall it is. It just doesn't have to be
construction exactly.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
It's just an in construction.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Right. You're making a great point, Jennifer. Let me expound
upon the great point you just made. In the construction industry,
what do we sell. We sell a contractor sells work
in place, meaning we get hired to build a building. Right,
every month, we get so much of it done, like
we make progress. We build the client for that amount
(30:39):
of progress that we got done, we call that working place. Okay,
that's what we get paid for that. Everything else is
supportive by definition. Okay.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
So my point of bringing that up.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Is to say, can you see how you really arm
yourself with a lot of potential when you work for
a construction company If you know how to do the
actual thing that we actually get paid for. That is
sound advice. As you just said, that is sound advice
(31:13):
no matter.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
What industry you work in.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
Ye.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
So, if it's not construction and it's something else, whatever
is the something else industry that you work in, learn
how to do that actual thing.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, that's what you're bady to do.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
That's how you write your ticket to the top.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
You need to be sound and competent and knowledgeable of
the thing that your company actually sells. And in construction,
in the contracting world, it's working place. You need to
know how to actually build. That's what we get paid for.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, the thing you're hired to do.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely, Well, let's I want to get your
your insights on emerging trends, right, So what trends do
you believe will just really significantly impact the building industry
construction industry in the next let's say five years.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Yeah, Well, there's a couple that come to my mind.
First of all, I think there's there's just a significant
amount of like like a tipping point. I think we're
nearing a tipping point towards construction technology. So you know,
twenty years ago, thirty years ago, like when I started
the no one even had email or anything, right, so
(32:30):
you can imagine how much.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Change I have seen happen.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
But the construction technology space is really maturing and we
are hitting a tipping point, I think. So to answer
your question, in the next five years, I do think
there's going to be kind of an understanding of an
emergence of the most powerful technology tools that are going
(32:54):
to be helpful and I'm sure that some of that
will include AI focused things at at this point, right
because it's clearly here to stay and not a bad
that's going. So I would say proficiency and knowledge and
exposure to the construction technology side of things will be
helpful in order for companies to establish understanding influency in
(33:19):
whatever are the tools that emerge dominant, because right now
there's a bunch of things that are all out there
emerging and competing. But I'm sure over the next four
to five years there's going to be a perhaps a
consolidation of the industry as we all figure out what
(33:40):
are the best actual tools that are actually helpful, right, etc.
So Lumber, for example, would be the type of company
that has emerged in that space.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
With actual usable tools.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
That have a return on investment, and that those tools
like Lumber that are figuring out how to be actually valuable,
have an actual return on investment, and have the ability
to be implemented with a reasonable amount of ease user adoption,
that people will actually use it, all of those kinds
(34:18):
of things. So I think Lumber is an example of
one of the companies that will emerge in the consolidation
of things. So construction technology would be one trend that
I think is clearly is clearly here today. Another couple
that come to my mind are I think the companies
(34:40):
who figure out how to bridge the gap between the
office and the field are going are likely to have
some operational advantages, I think, and some profitability advantages. It's
kind of an age old problem, Jennifer, Like, if you've
worked in the construction industry for long enough, you'll run
(35:02):
into this issue.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
It's really common, and it's.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Just a challenge that I think no one construction company invented.
I think it's just kind of a difficult phenomenon that
happens in the industry, and so everyone's kind of up
against it to one degree or another. But there tends
to just be these two camps of everyone that goes
to work in the office and everyone that goes to
(35:29):
work in the field where the actual building is happening, right,
and then the office is further fragmented these days by
who goes to work in the office and who works remote. Yeah,
so you got that further fragmentation going on. So in
a way, it used to just be two camps, the
field and the office. But now can you see how
(35:51):
it's kind of three camps because now it's like the
office that's in house, and the office that's remote, and
then the field. So there's like three camp like so
bridging all of these divides is not easy, and there's
a lot of there's a lot of inefficiency. First of all,
in the divide, there's a lot of inefficiency like just
(36:14):
difficult to communicate, inefficiencies in that communication errors that can
come in that lack of communication that can affect the
bottom line. And then also second of all, there's cultural ramifications, right,
so it can affect when you have too much disconnect
or too much disharmony between the office and the field,
(36:37):
then that can affect your company culture, which can affect
your bottom line or can affect your ability to attract
people to work for you or to retain people.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
So all of.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Those reasons I think make this kind of an emerging
trend that's really important, and companies that make small but
steady improvements in the connectivity and the harmony between the
office and the field I think have an advantage. And
then the third trend I think that popped into my
(37:08):
head when you ask the question, would maybe revolve around
the growing concern that is legit over mental health in
the construction industry, and that, by the way, is not exaggerated.
I think is a legitimate issue. It is extremely stressful,
(37:33):
or can be can be extremely stressful to work in
the construction industry mentally stressful. And then on top of that,
for everyone who truly works in the field, all trade workers,
it is physically exhausting. It is so you have physical
exhaustion on top of mental exhaustion, and that is a lot.
(37:55):
I mean that will age.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Anyone quick, yeah, it will.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Yeah. Yeah, So it's hard, you know, And that's why
I tell people that, you know, come into the construction
industry by all means, you can have a tremendous career.
It can be lucrative, you can do extremely well. But
I also tell people to come into the industry with
their eyes wide open, because it is not for everyone.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Yeah, it is not a tea party.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
No, people in the construction industry like yourself. There are
so many great people that you will come across. But
you're exactly right, yeah, eyes wide open.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Yeah, your everyday daily experience, right, I think it's not
a tea party, So you have to go into it
understanding that it's very mission oriented, and it attracts highly competitive,
assertive and aggressive people that are winning, that are focused
on winning, highly competitive people, as I mentioned before. And
(38:57):
it's extremely stressful, it can be extraor ordinarily dangerous, all
of these things, right, Yeah, you do make four interesting
ingredients into a cocktail that not everyone can drink. Yeah,
it's not for everyone, so, but it is a wonderful
challenge for those people who really have a desire, have
(39:22):
an ambitious desire to tackle it and kind of come
with that really assertive, gritty personality we were talking about.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, going full circle. Absolutely. Yeah, I wish we had
more time to spend. We are out of time, Cody,
But I've truly enjoyed our conversation learning from you one
that's been in the industry. So tell listeners where can
they find you if they want, you know, coaching, Beyonce, podcasts,
speaking events. What's the easiest way to get in touch
(39:52):
with you?
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Oh, probably the easiest way is just connect with me
on LinkedIn. I have quite a presence on LinkedIn. I'm
in there almost every day, and I'm pretty sure that
I'm the only Cody Fournier in the world. So if
you just search my name in LinkedIn, you will find
me and I would love to talk with you help
you in any way that I can in the to
(40:16):
just survive and thrive in the commercial construction industry. So
feel free connect at will. And also if as a
company you are interested in needing any help into the
growing of your company, strategic growth initiatives, operational excellence initiatives,
(40:38):
leadership development within your team, succession planning. All of those
things are consulting practices of the well built team where
I work, where we excel. So if anyone out there
is listening and needs help with any of those things,
you can reach out to me and you can talk
to you about that as well.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Awesome, Well, I hope I invite you to come back
on the show. We'd love to have you again and
dig a little bit further in so hopefully we can
have that in the future. And for our listeners out there,
we're going to put a survey in the comment so
if you would just go ahead and fill out that survey,
that would help us out greatly. So again, Cody, thank
(41:20):
you so much for joining us. And until at the
next episode that.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
If you're a construction contractor and would like to appear
as a guest on our podcast. Write us an email.
It's Lou at lumberfi dot com.
Hey everyone, i'mlu Perez, your host of The Builder Upper Show,
a podcast where we talk about everything in construction and trades.
We have a special co host today, Jennifer Hires, who
will be interviewing Women in Construction for Women in Construction Week.
Hey Jen, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hi lud, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Who is your special guest today?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
All right, welcome to the show, and today I am
absolutely thrilled to welcome our guest, Cody Fournier. And Cody
actually started with a degree in construction management from Michigan
State University. She knew nothing about construction, but was intrigued
and was hired to be a field engineer. And she
(00:47):
was saved by seven things humility, grit, a thick skin, intuition, empathy,
first principle, reasoning, the ability to ask one thousand and
more smart questions, and initiative. And she progressed through greater
levels of responsibilities on up to senior executive roles and
(01:08):
founded a company that was successfully acquired.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
In all of those things, then.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Two additional things happened. She fell into a deep state
of admiration for the construction industry and discovered her superpower.
Cody welcome to the show. I'm so glad to have
you with us.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Well, thank you for having me Jennifer. It's a pleasure
to be here, especially during Women in Construction Week.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yes, thank you for that plug there. That is why
we initially got together to do this interview. And Cody,
I'm really excited just to jump in. There's so many
questions we were talking even before the show. I think
that we could have kept talking, and we finally had
to decide we need to start recording. Share your journey
(01:54):
into that construction industry and what did inspire you to
pursue construction.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Well, it's an interesting story, I'll tell you. It started
back in my journey at Michigan State. So when I
was enrolled there as a freshman, I wasn't sure what
I was going to major in. And way back in
the day before the internet, they had a catalog of
majors you could choose from. And through those hundreds of
(02:24):
choices that I was flipping through in that catalog, I
noticed there was a ranking of all of the majors
at the back of the catalog by average.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Starting salary out of school.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Nice and construction management was really high on that list.
I think it was number two, if I'm not mistaken.
So I was like, what is this this thing that
you can make good money? And I thought, oh, let
me see what that is.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Let me learn more about it.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
So I made an appointment with the advisor of the
and learned a little bit more about it. I learned
that half of the classes were in the College of Engineering.
They were like technical oriented college classes, and then the
other half were business and management courses of course from
the College of Business. And so at this thought, it
(03:19):
is going to be a well rounded education. If nothing else,
I'll be getting the business and the technical sides of things.
And I thought, if I could do well in this,
like actually be good at it, then perhaps I could
write my ticket in a really interesting career that apparently
pays well and also probably has very few women in it.
(03:41):
So I thought, maybe there's an opportunity for me to
kind of stand out and be unique, assuming I could
do it well. So I kind of took a chance
on all of those things. It wasn't a super huge
passion or anything like that. It was more like a
pragmatic decision, and I was hoping that if I gave
it a try and I turn out to be good
(04:01):
at it, that maybe that decision that I had made
with my head would allow my heart to follow over time.
And that's what happened, because, as you said in your
introduction of me, I quickly fell into I would say
probably by year five or six in my career, I
(04:22):
fell into a pretty deep state of admiration for construction workers.
It really is an incredibly unique thing to be in
a supervisory role on a large scale construction project and
be up close and personal with hundreds of people who
(04:44):
are building a building, and you have any kind of
role to play, to have any contribution in that whatsoever.
When you don't grow up in the trades or don't
grow up wearing a tool belt or swinging a hammer,
which was certainly the case for me, So to be
anywhere near up close and personal watching all of these
(05:06):
men and women do something extraordinary under extraordinarily difficult circumstances,
it's really humbling, and it's easy to fall if you
pay really close attention. It is easy to fall into
a deep state of admiration and respect for these people.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
And that's what happened to me.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah. Absolutely, And so in the introduction I said, you're
saved by seven things right, humility, grit, thick skin, intuition, empathy,
first principle, reasoning, the ability to ask a thousand smart questions. Yes,
having that initiative. So is that what you found in
going in the construction industry with just being intrigued right
(05:47):
out of college? Those really saved you through?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
They really did because and I say those things saved me,
And I know what you're talking about. You're reading from
a very popular hosts that I put on LinkedIn where
I'm trying to help construction companies to understand when you're hiring.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Rookies like myself, right, who.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Are coming into the industry with little to know experience,
which was certainly the case for me, Then if you're
not hiring someone based upon their proven track record, right,
their proven experience, then what should you hire them for?
What are the qualities of which you should hire someone for?
And that's where I came up of that list of
(06:32):
seven things. I tried to look back upon my own
career as well as others that I have seen do
very well in the industry despite coming in with very
little experience like myself, and I kind of ended up
discerning that list of seven qualities that if you can
at least bring in those things, you've got a shot
(06:55):
at being successful.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
You've got a shot at learning.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
On the job. In the what will often be, to
be honest, will often be quite a sink or swim
kind of environment. It's extremely difficult to teach people how
to build. If you cannot learn it in a book,
you cannot learn it in a classroom. It is very
much an on the job training learning kind of experience.
(07:20):
But what I'm trying to help people in the industry
to understand is if you come to that rookie experience
bringing with yourself some grit, some determination, like you were mentioning,
some ability to ask really good questions and lots of questions,
and have humility, but have that humility backed up with confidence,
(07:45):
like meaning, I need help. I'm not sure what the
right answer is, but I'm confident I will learn quickly
if you tell me like that kind of thing. That's
what I mean by humility backed up with confidence. So
all of those things that you met turned out to
be the thing that allowed me to survive those first
(08:05):
few rookie years where I had very little practical experience
to draw from, but I had some of those good
qualities that made my potential grow.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
So is that advice, those seven things, advice that you
would give someone starting a career in the construction industry today.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Yes, not only would I give that advice to the
to young people coming into the industry to work on
those seven things right under the understanding that you will
learn how to build once you get here, but bring
those seven skills to the table.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
And then also kind of conversely, I'm saying two construction companies,
when you are looking to hire relatively inexperienced.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
People, and therefore when you're interviewing them, you don't get
to talk about very much relevant experience because they don't
have any yet, right, They're just they're rookies. Maybe they're
like me, and all that they have as a construction
management degree and pretty much nothing else to talk about.
You have to remember when I showed up as a
field engineer working for Turner back in nineteen ninety one.
(09:10):
I showed up on a twenty five million dollar job
as a field engineer with mint in box, brand new
boots out of I mean literally having never spent time
on anything like that, which, by the way, side note
I do not recommend you do that do not show
up at a job sign with brand new boots. That was.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
It.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
But my point is to companies who are hiring rookies
like myself back in the day, what I'm saying is,
look for those seven qualities because if you can hire
someone who can show you that they are someone who
has a personality that is gritty, that has tenacity, right,
this shows an awful lot of initiative that has your
(09:59):
humili backed by the confidence all of those things that
we're discussing.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
If that are what you.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
Should be looking for when you're interviewing somebody that has
very little experience, because if they bring those other things,
you can teach them.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, yeah, you sure can. So that's one thing that
happened to you, right, You fell into this deep state
of admiration through the construction industry. You know, you learn
those those seven valuable things tell me about your super power,
then you discovered your super power as well.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Eventually, yes, eventually, over time. What I realized is, have
you ever heard the There's a famous phrase by doctor
Maya Angelou. She's famous for saying, when you learn, teach,
which is her way of saying, right, like, one of
the best things you can do for the world when
you learn something good or bad. Right, Yeah, it's great
(10:53):
if you can share what you learn with other people.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
And also, I think part of the reason she.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
Has may popularized that phrase is a compliment to those
people who can do it. So meeting great teachers are
not a dime a dozen. They are not. They are
rare birds, in my opinion, and in the construction industry
really really hard to find. So when you have really good,
(11:26):
solid construction industry experience, and you also happen to be
a good teacher, and you have somebody who can impart
knowledge and wisdom and experiential insight into others, and you
have a willingness and a capability to do it, then
(11:47):
that in our industry is a superpower. And that's what
I learned over time that I was good at doing
and I kind of discovered it.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Dentdely really throughout my career.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
But what happened is I realized that I had this
natural propensity to when I learned, when something happened to me,
I had this natural propensity like doctor Maya Angelo's quote,
when you learn teach, So I had this kind of
habit that when I would learn something, maybe it's a
great thing that I learned, like a good lesson, or
(12:24):
maybe it's a bad thing that happened and it's therefore
a bad lesson. My natural behavior was to tell other
people about it. Oh, this happened to me. This look, Oh,
this is what I learned. And it was just my
natural behavior. And then over time, what I realized is,
this is a calling for me. This is something that
(12:46):
I enjoy. This is something that I can contribute to
the industry. Right, this could be part of my legacy.
So slowly, over time I started looking for all kinds
of ways of which I could transfer my own knowledge
and my own experience to other people. And it just
(13:06):
showed up in all kinds of ways, whether I was
being paid to do it or not, even when it
wasn't my actual job description. I was always looking for ways,
little opportunities, little passion pet projects on the side where
I could share what I had learned with others. And
so it has manifested itself over thirty years in a
(13:30):
whole variety of ways, from training and development workshops that
I would create for whatever company I was working for,
even though that wasn't my job description, from that to
speaking countless times at industry associations and doing keynotes and workshops.
I basically created a whole like kind of professional speaking
(13:53):
career on the side of my career that was always ongoing,
writing articles for or industry publications. I wrote a book
that's been talk about this accessful. Yes, let's talk about
let's talk about this book. Okay, So yeah. I published
a book called Inside Construction's Most Valuable Players MVPs, which
(14:15):
is like a guide. It's like a career development guide
for people that come into the construction management industry who
are young and ambitious and are kind of looking for
intelligent insights for strategies, if you will, to fast track
their career towards the executive ranks of the industry, along
with some very helpful insights to succeed once you get there,
(14:40):
like where I'm talking about avoidance of common pitfalls that
happened to people when they reach the executive ranks, and.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
All kinds of things like that.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
And so just writing my book and going on a
book tour and talking about all the things that are
in it, as well as a ton of mentoring things
that I I do on a regular basis, whether it
be like this podcast we're having right now right or
the countless other podcasts that I've been a guest on,
(15:09):
as well as I have my own podcast that Michigan
State University asked me to host for mentoring construction management
professionals across the country to all kinds of executive coaching
and leadership development that I do in my career in
my job as a senior consultant with Well Built, it's
one of the things that I do. So that's a
(15:32):
really long answer to your question. But slowly, over time,
that's the superpower that I realized I had. I realized
that is my greatest contribution to the industry is that
I have a desire and a capability and a willingness
to share the things that I've learned over the years
and develop teaching skills that are pretty rare in our industry.
(15:56):
Because I say this all the time, Jennifer, but I've
relieved strongly that peaching at its essence is a performance art.
And so that's what I mean by not everybody can
do it. And so when when you find people in
the construction industry, I'm certainly not the only one, but
(16:17):
when you can find people in the construction industry who
have deep, deep, relevant technical knowledge. Right, they have all
the hard skills that are available in the industry. But
then and they're combined with really good soft skills that
include the ability to teach what you know. That's a
pretty small intersection of people. So when yeah, so when
(16:40):
construction companies find someone like that, they're really valuable.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Hold on to them.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Where can listeners find your book? Where they order?
Speaker 4 (16:49):
You can look, you can search for it looks like
this and you can find it on Amazon easily. Just
search under my name or search under the title which
is inside can Instructions, MVPs, Most Valuable Players, or search
for my name and you'll find it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah, no, definitely I wanted to put a plug into
your book, you know, especially like you said, being that
teacher and where people can learn from you. As you
said in the introduction, we are in the week of
celebrating women in construction. So let's shift gears and let's
talk about women in the conduct construction industry. So what
(17:29):
unique challenges do women face? And then how can those challenges,
how can we actually address them?
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Yeah, it's a great question, and you can imagine over
the past thirty years, how many times. I've been asked
that in various forms, because let's be honest, when I started, Jennifer,
there were so few of us. Yeah, they're really really rare.
There are very few few women in the industry, particular
in operations oriented positions, and particularly in the field. I
(17:58):
think that we're still a huge minority in field operations
for construction companies.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Without a doubt.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
But as you can imagine, it's grown substantially since I
first started, So there's a lot more women now than
there was. I'm sure I was one of a handful
back in the nineties, and so that's part of the
reason why I went on the journey that I went
on that includes all of this teaching and mentoring and stuff,
(18:24):
is because I've been attempting to become the role model
that I needed when I was young. You know, I
did not have that. So fortunately for me, I had
a wonderful circle of men around me who helped me tremendously,
but there were very few women to have had his
(18:46):
role models in my career. So hopefully I'm leaving a
well marked trail for the next generation of women. But
to your question about unique challenges and things like that,
I'm sure, I am sure that everyone can imagine and
empathize that some of the disadvantages of being women, of
(19:07):
being a woman in the industry are real. I mean
they're real. They're not imagined. They they are real. It's harder,
I would say, on average, it's harder, you know, all
other things being equal, it's harder to be a woman
in the industry. And I and I think i'd be
(19:27):
laying false claim to say anything other than that. So
that's kind of the bad news part is that you
know it's harder. It's it's just not easy when you're
a minority in any situation. However, the good news is,
I think number one, it's getting a lot better. It's
(19:49):
getting a lot easier. It certainly appears to me to
be that way that it's getting easier. And also some
of the women that I have mentored along my career
have expressed less problems and less concerns than I experience.
So I think there's a positive trend, which is good,
at least from the conversations that I have had. So
(20:09):
that's my anecdotal evidence for that. But the other good thing,
when it comes to thinking about overcoming challenges in the
industry is I think the good news is that the
majority of the challenges that need to be overcome are
in your control. So meaning, I think the biggest challenges
(20:34):
are not related to your gender. They're more related to
your personality.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
All right, let's unpack that.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Yeah, so it's like your personality you have.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
I mean, I know we're all pretty hardwired to be
the personalities that we are. But I also think we
can agree that we all can work on our behaviors, right,
We all can work on slowly changing some things if
we desire to. And so I think I think it's
just helpful to know that. I think success in the
(21:04):
construction industry is more personality.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Specific than it is gender specific.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Also, the biggest discrimination I see in the industry is
your age, not your gender. So when I say age,
what I really mean is age slash experience level. Okay,
like under the assumption that the older you are, the
more experience you have is what I meant. So I
(21:34):
really I probably should correct myself and I shouldn't say age,
I should say the amount of experience you have, So
meaning there is I think there's more.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
There's more difficulties by that are determined.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
By your personality, and that are determined by your experience level,
and they are by whether or not you're a man
or a woman, that type of thing. So the good
news is as you become more experienced that that challenge
of not having enough experience will reduce. That's the good
news is as you become more experienced, that problem will lessen.
(22:11):
But the other good news is, again my opinion is
the biggest challenges.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Are personal the focused. So if your personality, I don't
care whether you're a man or a woman.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
If you're very assertive, if you're very curious, you have
the grit and tenacity like we were talking about earlier. Yeah,
you have the humility, but backed by a lot of
confidence to go, you know, belief in yourself right to
accompany the humility, and you have a demonstrated respect. That's
(22:51):
the other thing in the construction. And any man or
woman can do that. So that's why I'm saying it's genderless.
The most important thing you can bring to the field
is a demonstrated respect for those people who are out there.
If you bring that, you're halfway Home's you overcoming what
(23:12):
will be some some natural pushback that will come at
you because novelty is always recognized, right if you're some
of these people. Yeah, some of these people have never
worked for a woman's superintendent in their life. So give
them a hot second. Yeah, let them take it in.
(23:35):
And all I'm saying is, if you approach it, if
your personality is such that you are assertive, you are
humble but confident, you are demonstrating respect for all these
people who have far more experience and more knowledge than
you do. All of these things that we've been talking about,
can we not agree they are genderless?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (23:56):
So that is why I say to people, I always
validate their concerns about what it's like to be a
woman in the industry because I think it's important to
validate people's feelings and understand that there's.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Going to be a little bit of intimidation.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
There, no doubt about it. But I hope it's helpful
for women everywhere to know that your success will be
far more driven by your personality. That's good, then it
really your gender. Yes, And to also remember that the
other biggest thing that is hard to overcome is lack
(24:34):
of experience. But just keep that in mind. With every
year that goes by, you chip away at that problem.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, Yeah, it definitely does.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
And last but not least, if I could offer a
piece of advice. Another thing that I feel helps women
tremendously in the industry, and I have had many conversations
with friends other women in the industry where we talk
talk a lot about this behind closed doors, so I'd
love to share, is that the more actual field experience
(25:08):
you get. And when I say field experience, I mean
that you are in roles where if you work for
a trade contractor that you literally work in the trades,
or you work your way towards being a foreman, or
you work your way towards being a superintendent, where you're
in some sort of field leadership position, and if you're
(25:31):
on the general contracting side of the industry, then that
means you are a field engineer, assistant, superintendent, superintendent, those
types of titles. What many of us very successful women
in the construction industry know to be true is that
the more actual field experience you have, the easier it
(25:54):
is to overcome some of the objections because many people
in the industry will challenge those who don't have enough
real field experience, and that is a legitimate argument. It
is so Therefore, the best defense is go get some. Yeah,
(26:15):
you see what I'm saying. Absolutely absolutely go get some
and make that objection go away. You don't have to
tell people all the time. You don't. I don't even
have as much field experience as I would like. I mean,
in case you ask me at some point, let me
pre empt a question you are likely to ask me.
At some point. You might ask me, well, if I
(26:36):
could go back and give advice to my younger self, right, like,
what would I.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
The next question?
Speaker 4 (26:43):
Okay, what would I do differently? So that would be
one of my responses. Is even though I was fortunate
to start my career in the field and get some
really good, solid field experience, one thing I know for sure,
Jennifer is I've never, ever, ever, ever heard a senior
level executive in the construction industry ever say the words
(27:05):
I hate I got too much field experience. Yeah, Like
that's just like not a thing, okay, So meaning you
kind of can't get enough, right, Like it will always
be valuable to you. Yeah, So that's just something to
you know, for everyone listening to realize that that's something
that's within your control. So one of the ways you
(27:29):
can make sure that you kind of even the playing field.
If you are a woman coming into the industry or
already in the industry and working your way through your career,
one of the ways you can even the playing field
is to maximize your own amount of field experience. If anything,
I wish I had more right to answer your question
of what I would do differently. If anything, I would
(27:51):
have stayed out in the field even a little longer,
just to make sure that I was maximizing my time
out there and therefore minimizing the objection of me not
having having enough. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
It does. Yeah, you continuing to learn and getting again
more valuable experience.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yes, exactly so.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
And keep in mind, again that's a genderless comment that
we're that we're that we're talking about right now. Most
people on the construction management side of the equation don't
really have enough true field experience, men or women. So
that's just an example of the kind of thing for
any woman that's listening and you want to get ahead
(28:34):
and you want to earn respect, go out there and
be one of the people who is gaining more and
more and more field experience. And just keep in mind again,
you don't have to stay out in the field long
enough to become, say, a world class level project superintendent
or something like that. I certainly did not accomplish that,
(28:56):
but I know some women who have, and they we
are incredibly good at it, incredibly good at it. So
I know that from experience that even if you do
not make the career choice that leads you to becoming
a world class level superintendent, for example, the next best
(29:20):
thing is to spend enough time in the field working
underneath one of those world class superintendents, so that over
time in your career, when it comes time for you
to be responsible for hiring superintendents or helping to manage superintendents,
that you will know from your own first hand experience
(29:42):
exactly how one should think and behave.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
That's good advice as good advice. Yeah, again, you've learned,
and now you're able to teach based on that experience
that you have gained in the field and in the
industry itself.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Yeah, but if I had to do over I'd get
even more field experience. So that's how much I'm trying
to drive home that point.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
That could be in any industry. I mean it really can.
You can apply that to many, many many industries. So
just overall it is. It just doesn't have to be
construction exactly.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
It's just an in construction.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Right. You're making a great point, Jennifer. Let me expound
upon the great point you just made. In the construction industry,
what do we sell. We sell a contractor sells work
in place, meaning we get hired to build a building. Right,
every month, we get so much of it done, like
we make progress. We build the client for that amount
(30:39):
of progress that we got done, we call that working place. Okay,
that's what we get paid for that. Everything else is
supportive by definition. Okay.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
So my point of bringing that up.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Is to say, can you see how you really arm
yourself with a lot of potential when you work for
a construction company If you know how to do the
actual thing that we actually get paid for. That is
sound advice. As you just said, that is sound advice
(31:13):
no matter.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
What industry you work in.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
Ye.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
So, if it's not construction and it's something else, whatever
is the something else industry that you work in, learn
how to do that actual thing.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, that's what you're bady to do.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
That's how you write your ticket to the top.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
You need to be sound and competent and knowledgeable of
the thing that your company actually sells. And in construction,
in the contracting world, it's working place. You need to
know how to actually build. That's what we get paid for.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, the thing you're hired to do.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely, Well, let's I want to get your
your insights on emerging trends, right, So what trends do
you believe will just really significantly impact the building industry
construction industry in the next let's say five years.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Yeah, Well, there's a couple that come to my mind.
First of all, I think there's there's just a significant
amount of like like a tipping point. I think we're
nearing a tipping point towards construction technology. So you know,
twenty years ago, thirty years ago, like when I started
the no one even had email or anything, right, so
(32:30):
you can imagine how much.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Change I have seen happen.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
But the construction technology space is really maturing and we
are hitting a tipping point, I think. So to answer
your question, in the next five years, I do think
there's going to be kind of an understanding of an
emergence of the most powerful technology tools that are going
(32:54):
to be helpful and I'm sure that some of that
will include AI focused things at at this point, right
because it's clearly here to stay and not a bad
that's going. So I would say proficiency and knowledge and
exposure to the construction technology side of things will be
helpful in order for companies to establish understanding influency in
(33:19):
whatever are the tools that emerge dominant, because right now
there's a bunch of things that are all out there
emerging and competing. But I'm sure over the next four
to five years there's going to be a perhaps a
consolidation of the industry as we all figure out what
(33:40):
are the best actual tools that are actually helpful, right, etc.
So Lumber, for example, would be the type of company
that has emerged in that space.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
With actual usable tools.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
That have a return on investment, and that those tools
like Lumber that are figuring out how to be actually valuable,
have an actual return on investment, and have the ability
to be implemented with a reasonable amount of ease user adoption,
that people will actually use it, all of those kinds
(34:18):
of things. So I think Lumber is an example of
one of the companies that will emerge in the consolidation
of things. So construction technology would be one trend that
I think is clearly is clearly here today. Another couple
that come to my mind are I think the companies
(34:40):
who figure out how to bridge the gap between the
office and the field are going are likely to have
some operational advantages, I think, and some profitability advantages. It's
kind of an age old problem, Jennifer, Like, if you've
worked in the construction industry for long enough, you'll run
(35:02):
into this issue.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
It's really common, and it's.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Just a challenge that I think no one construction company invented.
I think it's just kind of a difficult phenomenon that
happens in the industry, and so everyone's kind of up
against it to one degree or another. But there tends
to just be these two camps of everyone that goes
to work in the office and everyone that goes to
(35:29):
work in the field where the actual building is happening, right,
and then the office is further fragmented these days by
who goes to work in the office and who works remote. Yeah,
so you got that further fragmentation going on. So in
a way, it used to just be two camps, the
field and the office. But now can you see how
(35:51):
it's kind of three camps because now it's like the
office that's in house, and the office that's remote, and
then the field. So there's like three camp like so
bridging all of these divides is not easy, and there's
a lot of there's a lot of inefficiency. First of all,
in the divide, there's a lot of inefficiency like just
(36:14):
difficult to communicate, inefficiencies in that communication errors that can
come in that lack of communication that can affect the
bottom line. And then also second of all, there's cultural ramifications, right,
so it can affect when you have too much disconnect
or too much disharmony between the office and the field,
(36:37):
then that can affect your company culture, which can affect
your bottom line or can affect your ability to attract
people to work for you or to retain people.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
So all of.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Those reasons I think make this kind of an emerging
trend that's really important, and companies that make small but
steady improvements in the connectivity and the harmony between the
office and the field I think have an advantage. And
then the third trend I think that popped into my
(37:08):
head when you ask the question, would maybe revolve around
the growing concern that is legit over mental health in
the construction industry, and that, by the way, is not exaggerated.
I think is a legitimate issue. It is extremely stressful,
(37:33):
or can be can be extremely stressful to work in
the construction industry mentally stressful. And then on top of that,
for everyone who truly works in the field, all trade workers,
it is physically exhausting. It is so you have physical
exhaustion on top of mental exhaustion, and that is a lot.
(37:55):
I mean that will age.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Anyone quick, yeah, it will.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Yeah. Yeah, So it's hard, you know, And that's why
I tell people that, you know, come into the construction
industry by all means, you can have a tremendous career.
It can be lucrative, you can do extremely well. But
I also tell people to come into the industry with
their eyes wide open, because it is not for everyone.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Yeah, it is not a tea party.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
No, people in the construction industry like yourself. There are
so many great people that you will come across. But
you're exactly right, yeah, eyes wide open.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Yeah, your everyday daily experience, right, I think it's not
a tea party, So you have to go into it
understanding that it's very mission oriented, and it attracts highly competitive,
assertive and aggressive people that are winning, that are focused
on winning, highly competitive people, as I mentioned before. And
(38:57):
it's extremely stressful, it can be extraor ordinarily dangerous, all
of these things, right, Yeah, you do make four interesting
ingredients into a cocktail that not everyone can drink. Yeah,
it's not for everyone, so, but it is a wonderful
challenge for those people who really have a desire, have
(39:22):
an ambitious desire to tackle it and kind of come
with that really assertive, gritty personality we were talking about.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, going full circle. Absolutely. Yeah, I wish we had
more time to spend. We are out of time, Cody,
But I've truly enjoyed our conversation learning from you one
that's been in the industry. So tell listeners where can
they find you if they want, you know, coaching, Beyonce, podcasts,
speaking events. What's the easiest way to get in touch
(39:52):
with you?
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Oh, probably the easiest way is just connect with me
on LinkedIn. I have quite a presence on LinkedIn. I'm
in there almost every day, and I'm pretty sure that
I'm the only Cody Fournier in the world. So if
you just search my name in LinkedIn, you will find
me and I would love to talk with you help
you in any way that I can in the to
(40:16):
just survive and thrive in the commercial construction industry. So
feel free connect at will. And also if as a
company you are interested in needing any help into the
growing of your company, strategic growth initiatives, operational excellence initiatives,
(40:38):
leadership development within your team, succession planning. All of those
things are consulting practices of the well built team where
I work, where we excel. So if anyone out there
is listening and needs help with any of those things,
you can reach out to me and you can talk
to you about that as well.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Awesome, Well, I hope I invite you to come back
on the show. We'd love to have you again and
dig a little bit further in so hopefully we can
have that in the future. And for our listeners out there,
we're going to put a survey in the comment so
if you would just go ahead and fill out that survey,
that would help us out greatly. So again, Cody, thank
(41:20):
you so much for joining us. And until at the
next episode that.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
If you're a construction contractor and would like to appear
as a guest on our podcast. Write us an email.
It's Lou at lumberfi dot com.
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