May 16, 2024 • 63 mins
From: http://www.squirrelhillbillies.com/about.html
From deep within the urban forest of Pittsburgh's East End, the Squirrel Hillbillies often emerge to share their eclectic mix of acoustic roots music, spanning folk, country and blues. They have headlined at venues across the US and the UK.
Through a collaborative, nonlinear songwriting process, duo partners Jenny Wolsk and Gary Crouth draw from personal experiences, third-hand stories, and vivid imaginations to craft songs that are unpredictable and quirky yet widely accessible. Their CDs have gotten radio play around the world.
From deep within the urban forest of Pittsburgh's East End, the Squirrel Hillbillies often emerge to share their eclectic mix of acoustic roots music, spanning folk, country and blues. They have headlined at venues across the US and the UK.
Through a collaborative, nonlinear songwriting process, duo partners Jenny Wolsk and Gary Crouth draw from personal experiences, third-hand stories, and vivid imaginations to craft songs that are unpredictable and quirky yet widely accessible. Their CDs have gotten radio play around the world.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
God knows. This is ann videoand you are Oh, bless your heart.
This is the code of podcast Pittsburgh'smusic scene. Welcome in. I'm
Johnny hert Well, your host,along with Andy Pugar. Today we talked
(00:23):
to the folk duo the Squirrel Hillbillies. You're fine, You're fine, all
right, Jenny Walsk and Gary KrouthThe Squirrel Hillbillies. Now listen. There
have been a lot of great namesof bands. I don't know if it's
(00:43):
the best band name ever, butit's gotta be close. It's gotta be
close. We love it what wetravel with people or sometimes oh the squirrels
are here, and sometimes it's ohthe Hillbillies are here. We think,
oh that's interesting. But if you'refrom the Pittsburgh's get the inside, can
get it. Yeah, and youyou probably can, like if you're out
in Seattle, plan and if somebodysays it, you go exactly right.
(01:04):
In fact, people say, whythe Squirrel Hillbillies. Why aren't you the
Beaver hill Billies or the you know, the Chipmunk Hillbillies. Let me tell
you about these ninety neighborhoods we havein Pittsburgh. Yeah, I love you
so that's the obvious place I needto start is where did you guys come
up with a name? Yeah,that's a good story. So when we
(01:25):
started playing together, we were usingour last names and actually had a different
last name than my name. Now, Walsk is a little more unusual,
but my other last name was moresquirrel. It was a more generic last
name, let's say that. Andso a friend of ours who's a musician,
said, you guys sound like taxaccountants. You know, we were
baneing Crofts. You guys sound liketax accountants. What you need a better
(01:47):
name? Lawyers? Yeah? Yeah, exactly. So I was there's no
money until we get money for you. So I just started pitching names like
crazy, like every probably every otherday. I was giving Gary another name
and Nope, nope, nope.And then I was walking down Murray Avenue
and Squirrel we both live in SquirrelHill, and I was walking down Maurray
Avenue, I was like, weare the Squirrel Hill Billies. For crying
(02:08):
out loud to that instant take,yes, my response was, of course
we are. That's brilliant. It'slike it's perfect. But I think it's
even more special that when you playoutside of Pittsburgh. They don't know what
it is. It's kind of likean inside joke. Absolutely say, we
get to be music ambassador musical ambassadorsfor that reason because then, you know,
(02:30):
you start to talk about your hometown, which is an adopted hometown for
both of us, so it's specialto us. We'll get into that.
But kind of your music styling isto me is kind of prairie home Companion
meets Pittsburgh. I like that.We're gonna quote you on that. You
(02:50):
know, people say, oh,Hillbillies, you play bluegrass, right,
and we say, well, youknow, those are our cousins in West
Virginia. We actually are urban Hillbillies, and so our music is a little
bit different, more rootsy. Wekind of say, you're right, it's
it's really not bluegrass. It's verymuch folk country, old country blues sort
of. You know, we've beendoing this these podcasts for quite some time
(03:12):
and we have yet to have anybodyactually play. I mean, this would
be a perfect opportunity to play andget us so people get an idea of
what you sound like. Can wecan we that? Which song are you
gonna gonna play for it? Sowe do write music and this song is
called Dharma Jane. It is asong that opens with a reference to the
Three Rivers, and it has aBuddhist chant embedded as the refrain. You
(03:38):
have the Buddhist bowl, I havea Tibetan singing bowl here, rich,
it's amazing. I go to sleepwith that noise. I have like a
(03:59):
like a little apple my phone.Yeah, it's just so relaxing. So
this sum we just figured it wasthe right instrument to add to Dharma Jane.
Down by the please swear the threerivers phone, thelue waves, paint
(04:20):
your face on the waters below,the lilt dove, your voice softly chanting.
The line returns as an echo thatsettles my mind. Any pod me
home, Ay, pod me home, Cruising the graveyard, lacking the trees,
(05:00):
filling the branches with feathery leaves,the lift of your hand as you
bid them goodbye. The darkness erupts, and a storm takes the sky.
Palm man, you pod me home, A man, You pod me home?
(05:39):
High on a hillside, city below, following footsteps left long ago,
mindful of storms, and then stillby the edge, whispering words of the
mantra you said, filling your spirit. Hey, where have you gone,
(06:03):
Dharma Jane. I'm hearing your voicein the rain. Where have you gone,
Dharma Jane? Oh? Man youpodme? Who a man? He
(06:29):
apod me? Who a man?Hipod me? Who a man? Hepod
me? Who? Wow? Thatis amazing, you know, it's kind
(06:59):
of fun in my mind. Isee, you know, Dharma Jane reminds
me of the you know, Himalayanmountains, but instead of like, you
know, Mount Everest, it's MountWashington exactly. So what is the song
about? I turn this over toGary for this resident Buddhist. Yes.
Well, the mantra ol Money podniHung is probably the most famous Buddhist mantra
(07:27):
in the world. And even thoughthere's no direct English, there's no direct
translation from the polly into the English, it does talk about the lotus flower,
and the lotus flowers very important inBuddhism because the lotus flower, if
you've ever seen a picture of one, they're big, beautiful flowers and they
only grow in muddy waters. Andas it turns out, the muddier and
(07:49):
the murkier the water is, themore beautiful the lotus flower becomes. And
so it becomes an analogy in Buddhismthat we use the mud and the muck
in our own lives and we usethat to bloom our lives as beautiful as
the lotus flower. The lyrics arebeautiful, It is amazing song. I
(08:13):
have so many questions now because Iwant to talk about the song and songwriting,
because that's that's kind of what wedo with the podcast. We want
to we want to find out,you know, how your love of music
started. And but before we gothere, let me let me ask you
what inspires you to write songs likethat? Is that is that your Buddhist
faith? Is that something? Orwhere does that come from? We we
(08:37):
write our songs together, and soI think this is one where maybe I
came to you, Jenny, andI said, hey, you know,
I've got some I've got the skeletonof some lyrics here about dharma Jane,
because I I have I have friendswho are are also Buddhist, and the
dharma is a is a Buddhist term, and so I did have a friend
(09:01):
who kind of disappeared for a whileand went into a monastery, and so
I was so that's what brought thephrase to me. You know, where
are you dharma Jane? And itkind of grew from that. But then
we brought the Pittsburgh references in andthat's that's when the song really fleshed out,
when I brought it to Jenny.But there are some dark imagery in
(09:22):
the in the song as well,and what does that represent? Yeah,
So there's the cemetery in Squirrel Hill, I think is it called the Home
Cemetery, I can't remember what it'sactually called. That has a lot of
big names buried in it, andwe walk there a lot, like that's
a sort of a routine place forus. And so the imagery of the
second verse talks about the crows inthe graveyard blackening the trees, because in
(09:46):
fact, there was a day whenwe saw all these crows and the trees
just looked like silhouettes of because theywere so full of birds. And then
they just immediately departed, and itwas like this this very dramatic moment of
just a wiet morning in the cemetery, and so that became that second verse
of maybe Darma Jane's presence caused themto depart. We do a lot of
(10:09):
hiking, especially when we tour.We do try to find walks. We're
both big walkers, and so thatthird verse about being up Mount Washington overlooking
and hearing this mantra in your head. I would say it was also inspired
by that walking tradition. You know, whether it's Michaelangelo with a sculpture or
a song, it's a work ofart and it's fascinating to see how you
(10:33):
created that sculpture that song. Youknow, what's so interesting about Darma Jane
is that it had a completely differentaccompaniment when we first wrote it, completely
different. It was much more ofa kind of an old country sound.
And we even performed it and Isaid, something's not right about Dharma Jane.
And I put it back to Gary. Can you recreate it? Boy?
(10:54):
You don't think so. We haveto think about it, and you
could do something like it. Itwould probably sound like one of our other
country songs, like Sammy's Old CountryBand or something. But I said,
I'm hearing like Simon and garfunkally ScarboroughFair and that's where the new accompaniment came
from. So I was very happy. As soon as he came up with
(11:16):
the new company. I said,yes, now we're done with this song.
But when you come to you know, the it seems like music being
recorded today, like this is justa radio studio and what you put on
tape is just amazing. And somany people get focused on pro tools and
you know, plugins and things likethat, and they forget that the craft
(11:41):
is really the artistry is in thesong, the songwriting, the music.
It's interesting you say that. Ido think for us that is true,
that's where our craft lies. Butfor some people it is in the tools
that in fact they I was justwatching a YouTube video of someone who's submitted
for the Tiny Desk Contest, becausewe do that every year on NPR,
and this woman's for people who aren'tfamiliar with us about that guest. So
(12:03):
NPR has a show called the TinyDesk Concert Series and they have every artist
ever gets invited to do one ofthe every big artist and then for people
like us who maybe they haven't discovered. Every year they do a contest and
it's open to the public. Youhave to be in the United States and
be eighteen. Otherwise you just sendthem a video of you doing an original
(12:24):
song, and a desk has tobe in the video somewhere. That's the
only rule. And so we've submittedevery year for the last eight years or
so, and then it gets melooking at a lot of other artists that
submit. It's wonderful community. Thousandsof people do it. And I found
an artist this year who was phenomenal, but she really didn't make much original
music. She did it all ona board and it was so interesting to
(12:46):
see. While that can be anotherform of art, and even within music
making these days, that wasn't whereour tradition comes from. All right,
Yes, okay, I've been around, I've had one position. Now I
agree with you. Okay, forgetwhat I said. I agree with you.
Anything can be art, right,all right? So you know,
(13:07):
the one thing that I love tohear about is what started your love of
music? And do? I letme start with Gary, what so when
did you? When did you discovermusic? Actually I can trace it back
to first grade. I just startedfirst grade in a new elementary school,
(13:28):
and I remember walking down the hallwayand hearing the children's chorus that I guess
we had there at this at theschool, sing Shenandoah, and I think
it was the first time I hadever heard harmony. Because I still remember
that, that moment is like frozenin time for me. I remember that
moment when I heard this harmony,and just I felt something warm inside of
(13:54):
me, and I remember thinking,what is going on? What is this?
Now? Did you come from amusical family. I came from a
family that loved music. My mydad was a piano player, even though
he didn't play in the house,you know. I remember, it wasn't
until I was much older that Iwe were at a place where there was
(14:15):
a piano and he started playing thepiano. I never knew he played it,
but we I grew up with recordsin the house, so we played
music all the time. And whatwere you listening? What were those earlier
My earliest records were Mitch Miller,Bobby Darren, Herb Albert. Those were
(14:35):
the kinds of things that my thatmy parents liked to listen to. So
that's what I And what did youlisten to? What was the first record
you bought? Simon and Garfunkle,Yeah, and then Bob Dylan, Crosby
Stills in Nash It was it wasthat kind of music that I that I
started buying myself. So you lovethe harmonies, Yes, the harmony really
(14:58):
really grabbed me. Maybe in myopinion, Beatles Holli's Crosby, Stills Nash
best harmonies ever, I agree?Did we just become best friends? Yes?
We did? Johnny? All right, now, Jenny, what about
you? Completely different? So myparents or my father's passed away, but
(15:20):
all very musical. He played saxophone. My mother plays piano and sings,
and she's a songwriter, and soI grew up hearing her songs. She
would accompany me. I was reallyI'd learned to play piano and played clarinet,
but mostly I was a singer,and she would accompany me, and
I would go out on auditions.I grew up in New York City.
I was in an office. Iwas in some theater in school and outside
(15:46):
of school, and I was hadno idea. I grew up in Greenwige
Village in the seventies, and Iwas completely oblivious to the folk scene,
real completely oblivious. I was intopop music and Broadway shows and what kind
of what pop music? Specifically,Well, I mean I was Billy Joel
and Indigo Girls and the Kinks andso range. Not just pop, I
(16:07):
guess rock and pop anything on theradio. You know. We were listened
to Casey Kaysum, me and mybrothers every Sunday we would listen to Casey
Kasum Stop st Countdown. So yeah, I really didn't know Joni Mitchell and
Bob or Bob Dylan. And infact they often say who's the guy that
(16:30):
I always forget the name of?Like I literally did not know that music,
that whole genre. And then Iwent off to college, was in
an a cappella group that really suitedme. I loved the harmonizing, the
arranging of music. Again, didmore kind of shows, you know,
Godspell and Hair and those kinds ofthings. Came to Pittsburgh, joined the
(16:52):
Pittsburgh Camarada, which is a corea choir here, and then the Bach
Choir of Pittsburgh, and until Iwas pregnant with my first that I started
learning guitar. So I was thirtythree years old at that point, and
I joined a folk orchestra that meetsat the met at the time at the
(17:14):
Unitarian Church in Shady Side. Itwas open to the public and just would
bring my guitar and everyone was veryencouraging. I wasn't very good and the
folk orchestra. Eventually Gary joined thefolk orchestra to other friends of ours,
and the four of us all becamea quartet outside of the Folk Orchestra.
We called ourselves the New Tourists,and we were a band and we played
(17:37):
out and Gary and I would findat the end of those rehearsals we would
stay longer and want to play moremusic, even when our other two members
absolutely absolutely, And so we decidedto become a duo. We originally did
not write music our first year.We just covered. Gary probably knows fifteen
hundred songs by heart, like heliterally just he's got motor memory. That's
(18:00):
how he knows songs. He knowswhat his fingers do, all right,
Name this tune ready. And itis funny when we performed, people say,
oh, do you know blah blahblah, and he'll he'll know a
song by that artist. He'll knowsome song by them, all right.
Gary, So when did you pickup an instrument? In fifth grade?
I I bugged my parents for along time, telling them I really want
(18:23):
to play guitar. And at firstthey thought, oh, gee, you
know, you know, waste allthis buddy on guitar lessons for this kid,
and he's not gonna he's not goingto go through. But he I
finally convinced them to let me takeguitar lessons, and it was I was
ten years old. Tell him aboutyour first guitar. And my first guitar
was a rented guitar. It wascalled a Spanish guitar. It was huge,
(18:45):
it was very very large. Itwas I think it was larger than
this guitar, and this is ajumbo and the action was way off the
neck and it would really hurt me. I won't say that my fingers bled,
but they really really heard. ButI wanted to play guitar so badly
that I suffered through that. Andthen when you were playing, when you
(19:07):
first learned, what kind of songswere you playing? Really, when I
first started playing, I wasn't evenplaying songs I was playing they were.
They taught me notes, so Ilearned the notes. I learned the FRep
board of the guitar. I learned, and and then I stopped taking lessons
(19:29):
from that person and started taking classicalguitar lessons. So I took classical guitar
lessons from a guitar master who actuallyonce played with Jackie Gleeson orchestra. He
was a horn player, but healso played guitar. And there was more
there was more. There were morepeople that wanted to play guitar than wanted
to play a horn. So hegave guitar lessons and he taught me classical
(19:53):
guitar, and then from there Istarted playing some of the folk songs that
I was listening to, the Simonand Garfunkel songs and the and the Dylan
songs. And you're also from NewYork. I'm from upstate New York with
the anything not in New York Cityis upstate. So I'm from actually Central
New York, Rome, New York, which is right in the foothills of
(20:15):
the Adirontic Mountains. It's a beautiful, beautiful yes, absolutely all right.
So what brought you to Pittsburgh.I graduated from Clarkson University and started working
for Alcoa. They have a plant, or had a plant up in Messina,
New York, which is way atthe top of the hump of New
(20:36):
York State. And I worked atthat plant for two years, and then
I was transferred to Pittsburgh to starta new program because of the changes in
the in the laws and the environmentallaws, and so that happened in nineteen
eighty. So were you playing outwhen you were living in New York.
(20:57):
No for your coffee house, Well, that was that was after I moved
to oh Well, during college.During college. Yes, I I ran
a college college. I know alot of most of us don't remember our
college years, but it does count. That's that's right. Thank you for
reminding me that I did have acoffee house career. When I was in
(21:21):
college, I played at various coffeehouses. And again it was I didn't
I wasn't writing very much. Iwrote a little bit. It was mostly
cover songs of Dylan. When didyou discover the aptitude of playing so many,
so many songs? When did youknow that you did? It just
become It never occurred to me thatthere that I knew a lot of songs.
(21:41):
I'm just I'm just old and soyou're wise. Thank you well edit
that in I'm wise? Uh so? Uh? Of all a song?
Like? What kind of genres ofmusic? Is it all folk music or
(22:03):
is it a variety of songs?I would say it's mostly. I mean,
there are some pop songs I've learned. I I usually will fall in
love with an artist and then learnlike I love Tom Waits, and so
I learned a couple of Tom Waitssongs. I love old jazz, and
so I've I've learned a couple ofold jazz songs, a song by Harlem
(22:25):
ham Fats, but mostly of folkssongs. And and of course I fell
in love with old blues, oldcountry blues, and so Mississippi John hurt
Uh and and those kinds of folks, Robert Johnson, you know, the
old blues from the thirties and andeven some of the twenties. Blind Blake
(22:48):
fell in love with that music andlearned and learned quite a few of those
songs. What what what is itabout that music that called you? That's
a good question, because I'm notI'm not sure I know the answer to
that. I had a similar experiencethat I had with Shenandoah when I was
in first grade. I had asimilar experience with country blues where I walked
into a coffeehouse when I was incollege and someone was playing the Hesitation blues.
(23:14):
It was the first time I'd everreally heard that that style of music,
and it grabbed me right away.And I remember walking away from that
experience saying, I've got to learnthis kind of music. When did you
start writing I wrote some pretty notso good songs when I was in high
school and then stopped writing. Haveyou heard these songs? No? Actually,
(23:38):
I haven't ever heard some of hisold stuff, but he has books
of stuff he's written. I'll playsome of my some of my old stuff.
You won't like it. It isa funny songwriting process because we do
come from such different backgrounds of whatwe love. And I think my theory
about Gary and old Blues is it'sa very intuitive song sound, and it's
(24:03):
very loose and very unproduced, andoften even the meter will change in the
midst of the song and it's likedid they know they did that or were
they just feeling it? Or isit deliberate? And that all kind of
is scary, I think personality wisetoo. And then he brings that loose,
kind of improvisational, intuitive process andthen I'm very sorrebral about music and
(24:29):
it has very mathematical and it hasto line up. And so it is
a great tension between the two thatI think is where our music gets it's
kind of unique quality to it.I could feel that with Dharma James.
It was, you know, ithas a very loose structure, but you
(24:51):
bring this almost a preciseness of thevocals, and I love that sometimes you
don't get that with with folk music. Interesting well, in fact, Bob
Dylan, I mean right, he'sthat very loose, and I think a
lot of people love about his musicis that it's so relatable and it's so
actually easy to cover, it's easyto sing along to, and he kind
(25:12):
of emphasizes that doesn't even matter howyou sound, it's really what you're doing
with what you have, and howyou're enjoying what you're doing. And that
influence on me has been great asa songwriter because it's not from inside of
me that I feel like Gary hasbrought and brought that whole world to me.
That's helped me write songs. Sowhen do you start writing? I
(25:33):
did not write a single. Well, I guess those first song I wrote
was with my daughter. I thinkwe were already writing songs by then,
though it was early if not,But anyway, I think that was as
comfortable as I was with songwriting,was oh, I can help my kids
write a song. Even listening tomy mom growing up, I just thought,
well, that's not me. Idon't have that inside of me.
(25:56):
And when we started together writing coveringsongs. We did a bunch of shows
locally where we could do covers,and there were venues where you couldn't perform
unless you had original music, andwe just thought, well, we're not
going to do those venues. Andthen an artist came to town named Joe
Crookston and he's a folk artist basedin Ithaca and I love his music.
(26:18):
I absolutely love his music. Andhe performed and we took him out for
a year after. We went tochurch brew Works and I was sitting next
to him and chatting with him,and he said, so, what kind
of music do you guys write AndI said, oh, we don't write
music. He said why not.I said, there's so much good stuff
out there. Why would why wouldwe need to? We can cover your
stuff, you know, other people's. And at the end of the meal,
(26:41):
he walked us back to our carsand he said, I think you
have something to say. I thinkyou might want to try some songwriting.
And by the next time he camea year later, we opened for him
with all original music. That's socool, so I always credit Joe Crookston.
He just came back to town acouple of weeks ago, a club
(27:03):
cafe and I sang with him onhis song, and I just felt like
something unlocked to have this artist Iadmire so much say that and he has
such Did he notice? Did heknows that you had written songs? Absolutely,
we've told him that story. Infact, he tells that story.
Yes, he knows that he inspiredor I give him credit for. Of
(27:25):
course, Gary was already writing.And so what it meant then was I
said to Gary, let's write somemusic, and he said, well,
I already have some stuff. Whydon't you take a listen. And I
listened to a bunch of things,and two songs just popped out immediately,
and one was No Bone Yes,and one was when I'm Gone, When
I'm Gone, And those were ourfirst two collaborations. And one of those
(27:51):
songs changed quite a bit since then, the first writing of it. But
after that we just started this processwhere one would bringing to the other.
So, Gary, obviously you werewriting songs. Had you performed any any
of your songs live prior to Jenny? Oh no, oh no, I
mean these were songs that I wouldand actually actually they would be parts of
(28:15):
songs. And so When I'm Goneand No Bone were partial songs that I
recorded for Jenny when she went onvacation and said, hey, take a
listen to these and see if anyof these sound. And those were two
that she selected, but then shehelped me finish them. Were the words
and music, yes, they werethat he had a verse at least a
(28:37):
verse for each and the music.And I'm not sure any of those original
lyrics stage. Probably some of them. We probably have documentation of it.
The process is so involved that itis often at the end sometimes we'll argue
about who gets credit for a givenword, because he'll be like, I
thought I could, No, Idid that, So it is hard to
(28:59):
know. Some songs are like,oh, that's a Gary song. Like
Gary brought almost the entire song tome, and all I had to do
was like figure out the structure ofit, like maybe it needed a different
refrain. All right, So thosefirst two songs, yes, and you
heard them, and you there wassomething about that song? And were you
eager or reluctant to add to whatgives such a great question. I'm so
(29:23):
for anyone listening who likes interested insongwriting, hasn't ever tried it, I
say go find a partner. Itis such a different process to write as
in a partnership. For me,it's so liberating to have something come to
me and just be able to respondto it rather than have a blank paper.
I find it to be the differencefor me and so him bringing me
(29:44):
something, even if I hate it, it gets me thinking how can I
love it? And usually if Ihate it, okay, we're not going
to proceed. But No Bone isa good example. That is a song
I would never have written on myown. It's very strange, it's unusual.
Will you play it? I don'thave my drums, but you can?
Yeah, sure, sure, atleast at the beginning. I mean
(30:11):
you get the vibe of it.Yeah, we can. Do you want
the whole thing? Or okay,hey we got nothing to do it?
All day to do it? Gary, this is your podcast. You do
whatever you want. We open upmy fridge. Now what do I see?
Just empty space staring out at methat fridge. Say now, what
(30:38):
you're gonna do? The lid wandsare all depending on you. Stupod say
not much here? There ain't muchhere. A spider moved in late last
year. Oh my dear stove,say go before it's to live me,
(31:03):
no fat, no bone. It'sbeen so long since the little one's egg.
Go now, don't you wait?No meat, no me, no
fat, no bone, no meat, no fat, no bone. What's
gone? And make me shout andmoan, leave my little ones all alone,
(31:29):
No meat, no fat, nobone. I started on down the
streets. I started down the street. A big rude, bigger it come
after me? How can that be? I took it down. I took
it home. No me, nofat, no bone, And I fed
(31:52):
it to the little one. Solonge, they're so longe. No meat,
no me, no fat, nobone, no meat, no fat,
no bone. Well it's gone,And make me shout and moan,
leave my little ones all alone,no meat, no fat, no bone.
(32:20):
Well the little ones eat till thebellies were full. Then they went
to sleep in the mixing ball.This lept on through the half past town.
No fight, no phone said,let's have some rood a big again.
Come on, let's see it again. No me, no me,
(32:45):
no fat, no bone, nomeat, no fat, no bone.
On what's god? And make meshout and moan, leave my little ones
all alone? No meat, nofat, no bone, no meat,
(33:07):
no fat, no bone. Whenyou first wrote it, Did it have
that call in response? No,it didn't and it didn't have and it
didn't have a lot of the wordseither. Yes. So what's funny about
that song is it was inspired bya compost bin that said no meat,
(33:29):
no fat, no bones on thebin. And Gary's a big composter,
and I'm a I happened to bevegetarian, and so I thought it was
just hilarious. No meat, Yeah, no meat. Nobody should be eating
meat. And so I liked thatI could shout. I just liked that
idea. I know, I couldshow them. Did do you appreciate the
history of folk music? Do yousee where it came from? Did you
(33:51):
do you do you? Did yougo down that rabbit hole when you first
started playing? Not when I firststarted playing, but since then, I've
been interested in the process of offolk music and uh, you know the
Woody g. Guthrie tradition and andthe people that preceded him. Yes,
certainly there's something about folk music thatit just it's just so accessible. Well
(34:15):
yeah, but you know, likeI don't think either one of us you
know where that that song went islike you know, you can see a
family, but no, no,fat, no meat. And that's that's
that's kind of goes back to theroots of folk music. Is that where
you when you write, do youkind of do you look at the history
(34:37):
of folk music and kind of goalong with that tradition or is that just
you just maybe it just you don'tknow where it goes. No. I
I go out and put composts inthe compost bin, and and I and
I see the words on the onthe lid saying no meat, no fat,
no bones. And I walk awaysinging, no meat, no fat,
(34:57):
no bone, no meat, nofat, no bone. That is
the greatest response ever. Because youdon't know where your your inspiration comes from
ever you know could come from anywhere. Is that the strangest place you've you
received inspiration? Tell me engines,please story. We won't play it,
but tell me. Okay, well, I'll abbreviate the story. I used
(35:20):
to have a very old BMW threetwenty I that I bought new in nineteen
eighty and I kept that car livefor many, many years, and finally
the engine died on it coming backfrom Washington, d C. To Pittsburgh,
and I took it to my mechanicand my mechanics said, well,
if you want to be crazy aboutthis, we can rebuild the engine,
(35:43):
but we'll have to send it toMemphis, Tennessee because those are the people
that really know how to rebuild thesekinds of engines. So I said,
yeah, fine. So he tookthe engine out and he sent it down
to Memphis, Tennessee. And itnever got there. It got We're not
sure, we're not sure what happenedto it. It got lost, and
uh, how do you lose?Well, that's what that what that's what.
(36:07):
The question was, how do youlose a ton of an engine or
a half of a ton engine?And so my mechanic felt very very bad
about it, and he called meand told me the sad story. And
I was very sad for a while. And I was telling Jenny about this
and she I was whining and moaningand complaining and and and Jenny said,
(36:29):
hey, suck it up. You'rea blues player. Sing a song,
but read song about it. Andso I took that to heart, and
I wrote a song called engine Blues, and we actually played it for my
mechanic. He enjoyed that. Whatare some of the lyrics? So we
have an idea of where that wherethat well, you haven't in your fingers.
I just didn't want to commit himto because it's a hard well,
(36:51):
I mean, just just tell methe lyrics that started off. Let's see.
I know, without playing it's hardto let me get it. Yeah,
it tells the story of an enginegone missing and saying it's between Memphis,
somewhere between Memphis, Pittsburgh and Memphis, Tennessee. Yeah, it talks,
and it talks about what might.You may think this is funny,
(37:13):
you may say it's untrue. Butwithout an engine, my car just won't
do it. Sits like a sculpture, all quiet and demure when it wants
to be a seventy mile an hourblur. My engine is missing, misled,
mislaid. It's a mystery lost inspace someplace between Pittsburgh and Memphis,
Tennessee. That's fabulous. We goon to say, well, maybe the
emphasis, maybe the engine made itsway down to New Orleans and it's down
(37:36):
there drinking, having a time ofit. You know, it's it's it's
going around the country, it's touringthe maybe it's been it's been detained for
questioning somewhere it gets it gets kindof silly, but one to obey exactly.
We have fun with it. Wehad o if that engine could talk.
All right, now, let's getback to the partnership. So you
(37:59):
you kind of, you know,found yourself in a in the what was
the band the Tourists new Tourists,the New Tourists and what kind of music
were you playing? Similar stuff?Actually, but we weren't writing stuff.
We were covering like the the Mammalsand the Ducks. The Ducks who are
string band from Canada. Brian Junker, who's in the was in our quartetan
(38:23):
as a friend of ours. He'sgot a great taste for music and he
would bring us kind of unknown bandsto cover. Then you spent some time
after rehearsal playing with each other andyou found that simpatico, like I said,
And it's very easy to play musicwith Gary because he is just a
very easy going person, which isa lot. The chemistry of a band
(38:46):
is an important piece. I thinksometimes bands implode because of the personalities within
it. And Gary's just easy toplay music with. And then when did
you decide to play together out Itwas back in February of twenty ten,
(39:07):
and I think our first gig wasthat Spreadship, Yes, flower festival exactly.
It was just a community event andwe went and played out and I
don't think I'm sure we didn't getpaid. We got paid in they gave
us a little tokens that we couldget free flowers. That's right. It
was a bartering situation. We dida lot of bartering in our early days.
(39:27):
But we got a gig from maybeit wasn't from that, but from
another gig shortly after where we werejust playing out in a community event and
a woman who helps run a whosefamily runs the Gateway Lodge and Cook Forest
anything to see us, and sheinvited us. And so this is in
twenty ten or that. Oh whatwas her name, fabulous Jody was the
(39:49):
daughter, but her mom and becauseit was family run, I don't know
her mom's name yet. Oh mygod, you've been up there all many
times. I'd see, that's myI went to school with Clarion. I
only wanted to go to school theresimply because of the I love the woods,
Cook's Forest and things like that.Yes, Oh, so that's where
a lot of our music has beenwritten because we've bartered with them over the
(40:13):
years and done several retreats where wespend a week in the cabin and we
performed there, but we write whilewe're there, and they closed for a
while and I think it's reopened noware they still? Are they bringing?
We haven't been back since COVID thatin fact, it was the last gig
before COVID that we did was upthere, and then we haven't been back
there. We've performed other worse placessince, but not there a little sidebar
there. Sorry if I'm no,no, no, But going back to
(40:36):
the first gig, how was it? It was windy? We've had We
used to say we've had fun atall our gigs, Like we've performed probably
six seven hundred by now, andthere've just been so very very few where
we didn't have fun because even nomatter what's going on, like we just
(40:58):
can sing with each other. Andit's another benefit of being in a duo
that I think would be very hardas a solo artist to get to a
bad venue or something that's just unpleasantor someone in the crowd or the conditions,
and it would be hard if you'reby yourself, but you got someone
else there, you're like, oh, we're just gonna enjoy ourselves. That's
right. Yeah, So we've hada lot of fun at our shows over
(41:21):
the years. So you were playingtogether, but mainly covers for that first
year. By the time we aretwenty twelve, that was twenty ten.
By twenty twelve we came out withour first CD. But by the time
our first CD came out, weactually had half the music for our second
CD already. Well, tell meabout crafting that first CD. What was
the process, how was it?What was that like? Was that fun?
(41:43):
You know sometimes when you first createsomething that it's something endearing, it's
getting to that. It's that journeyof coming up with something that tangible item
that CD. What was that processlike? If we had to do it
like he was, we were justtalking about record deals, which we've never
done a record deal. Like ifwe had to produce a record, I
(42:04):
think it would have been a verydifferent situation where both midlife we didn't we
we didn't have to do anything.We just had some songs that we thought
would be good and we recorded themall ourselves in my house. Gary has
great equipment, so we had micsand a board, and then we found
a guy in exactly and go backto Joe Crookston, who I'd given credit
(42:30):
to. He mixed his own CDsin Ehaca, New York with an artist
with a sound engineer, and sothat's who we had mixed our first CD.
We thought, well, we likewhat he does, so we went
out to Will Russell Russell Thank Youin Ithaca, New York, and and
mixed our first No, he mixedand mastered it for us. Yeah,
(42:52):
the process has been so unpredictable inthat sometimes, Like one of our songs
called Refugee, was a poem thatI wrote one night. The entire poem
I wrote, but it was calledrescue Me and almost all the same words,
but the refrain was rescue me andit was me in a really dark
(43:13):
place. And I sent it toGary by text, here's here's this poem
I wrote, and he said,that's going to need some cheerful music or
it's just going to be a downer. And he gave me this like Sesame
Street like almost accompaniment, like thetheme song for Sesame Street. It has
that feel to me. It's abouncy yeah, it's lovely. And then
(43:37):
when that came back and I listenedto that, I said, oh,
you know what rescue Me is toomuch. This is about finding your poem,
finding a place when you don't knowwhere you belong. It's kind of
like a refugee. So that issort of how our process can work.
It's never been we need to writea song, like, let's sit down
and do that a song a day, kind of thing that some artists do.
(44:00):
Often it'll be one of us justsaying I have an idea, what
do you think we can do withthis? We had a song. Some
of our songs we work. Someare like no work at all and insane
when we're apart, which is i'dsay one of our like more I don't
know, really crafted songs in asense. I remember that that last line
happening in the refrain where we justcouldn't quite figure out how to bring it
(44:23):
back together. And I brought mykids over after school one day. We're
sitting in Gary's living room. Soit's like a very organic process. Well,
getting back to Rescue Me and Refugee. When you send it to Gary,
did you intend like, hey,this could be a song or was
(44:45):
this just something this is something thatyou're just bearing your soul? It probably
was just bearing my soul. Buteverything I'd do is with the notion that
we might turn it into But Ithink it was just bearing my soul that
night. Yeah, are you reluctantf to present an idea to the other
person. I think that at thispoint we've been together as a music partnership
(45:12):
for so long that there is acertain amount of vulnerability. But I think
there's also at least this is whatI feel. I feel a certain faith
in our system that I can bringsomething to Jenny and I will get an
honest reaction. And with that faith, I'm not reluctant at all. No,
I have no reluctancy EI there.And you know, Gary has brought
(45:36):
songs like where I just feel likethat's a Gary song one hundred percent and
it's great, but I can't ownit. It doesn't feel like something I
would do. And he had thissong called like Everybody's rich when Nobody's poor,
Everybody's wealthy when nobody's poor. Yes, And so he performed that somewhere
else by himself, and he gotan opportunity to do that. And it
(45:57):
wasn't that the theme was wrong,It just like it just didn't feel like
I could contribute anything it kind offelt like it was its own thing.
And there are times when he'll bringme something and I'll just say, I
just don't know where to go withthat. Or we have songs where the
entire song got rewritten in the processof songwriting, where it didn't even end
up in the same topic. That'sfascinating, it is, and I think
(46:21):
we're both very open too well.Sometimes we're resistant. There are times we
have to put it aside and say, we can't do anything else with this
song. It just doesn't want tofinish itself. And have you revisited that
one of those songs and brought itback to life? Yes, and sometimes
yes and sometimes no. We havea song called Bless You Man that I
think we both love, but we'venever and it's on our one of our
(46:45):
CDs, and we have performed it, but we've never felt like it's just
got it all together yet, andso I've tried to revisit it many times
and I just can't haven't been ableto figure it out. Have you ever
had a song where or maybe thetone or the change of music or maybe
the words changed once you start performingit. Absolutely, And I'm glad you
(47:07):
asked because that's actually I would sayanother thing about us is that we have
different sensibilities about sort of what's acceptable, what's appropriate, what's and that's also
a tension in a good way thatcontributes to songwriting. So we just covered
a song by another local artist aspart of a project that was such a
fun project. And this is anartist whose music has not been covered by
(47:30):
a lot of people, and ithad one word in it that I just
thought, I don't know, Idon't know, I don't if it's going
to trigger the wrong thing in peopleand listeners. But to Gary it was
like, hmm, it's fine.And so I reached out to the artists
and said what do you think aboutus changing this word? And he was
like, oh, I never thoughtof it, but sure you can change
if you want. And so itwas the kind of thing where had Gary
(47:52):
would have been fine singing it,I just wasn't. It had to.
It was coming out of my mouth. It just didn't feel right. But
had the artist set who wrote itsaid no, that's the word I would
have I would have sung it.So I think there is that sort of
different sensibilities that comes into songwriting aswell. Tell us about the folks scene
(48:14):
in Pittsburgh. Oh, tell aboutsong Space. Yes, So there are
some some concert series that are maybenot as well known as they should be.
And one I'm involved with which iscalled the song Space Series and it's
(48:36):
based at the First Unitarian Church inShadyside, And even though I'm not a
member of the church, I'm ontheir their committee. So this is how
open the Unitarians are. And andwe put on a few concerts I would
say about five a year, sonot it's not a weekly, monthly or
even quarterly thing, but and wetry to get national artists, but we
(49:01):
also focus on some of the localartists and as openers, and I've heard
some incredibly talented local artists through havingthem as openers as part of the song
Space series. When their January showevery year is actually features a local artist
as the main act, and wedid. We were the feature last year,
(49:22):
not this past January, but theyear before, and we were invited
to find our own opening acts andso we got to find we decided to
look for young folks singers and there'sa woman named Madeline Joe we discovered who's
at pitt and she has a band, and we also found Louis Castle,
who is amazing guitarist. There arepeople doing cool things here in Pittsburgh,
(49:45):
especially in Oakland, in like houseconcerts at pitt people doing their basements and
things like that. What is thehistory of your kind of music in Pittsburgh?
Is there a rich history? Heused to that that festival, the
Smoky Well the The other group thatis involved with folk music in Pittsburgh is
(50:09):
the Calliope Group, and they haveclasses that they teach, they have a
concert series, and they've been activein Pittsburgh for I think since the seventies,
and they were active when I movedhere in nineteen eighty. And they
used to have a festival every yearcalled the Smoky City Folk Festival and they
(50:30):
would have primarily local folk musicians andplay at that. And where are the
hotspots around the country for your kindof music? There's in Boston in ann
Arbor, these club Pessime and theArc. It's a good point. It's
(50:51):
a good point. In fact,Yeah, there's there are a few venues.
There's sort of the three to fivehundred people venues, smaller intimate.
You know, house concerts are areally big thing in folk music. I
don't know if you guys are familiarwith that concept. But where people put
on a show in their own houseand I've hosted them in fact and fabulous,
(51:12):
Oh it's wonderful. There are severalpeople locally who host them and you
just get on their list serves.One is a Colliope board member who had
us to do a house concert andshe does a lot of hosts a lot
of concerts, and then you getto meet not only do these are touring
artists and they get you know,they'll usually have twenty twenty five dollars ahead
goes directly the artists. The hostdoesn't take any of it. And then
(51:34):
there's often a meal and you'll getto meet the artist and chat and then
they'll also maybe sell merchandise and they'llstay over free housing for them. So
it works for everybody. And I'dsay that's how we get to meet some
artists from out of town and howwe also get to perform when we're out
of town. And in between shows, I DJ a lot of weddings.
(51:55):
Oh yes, And what is whatis crazy, what is really incredible is
there's usually you set up music forthe cocktail hour or the dinner music and
over the last four or five years, more and more folk music, Americana
music is what they are gravitating towards. Is that something that you're experiencing kind
(52:21):
of a resurgence of like roots music. It's interesting, I would say,
because I do listen to pop music. I would say, you know,
you see banjo, you see ukulelein pop music these days. I think
there's always been that tradition of evena big heavy metal band having an acoustic
song and the unplugged song, Sothat's probably that isn't new, But I
(52:45):
would say that there is a respectin the younger generations for that kind of
music and more playing of it themselves, which you know, I think that
folk music really is just people ofmusic of the people, And in that
regard, I think that this newgeneration that can make their own music so
easily, produce it themselves, putit up on YouTube or out on Spotify
(53:08):
or other platforms, it's all veryexciting. It opens the whole world up
to a lot. What do youthink draws them in to a younger generation?
What drew you in? I thinkthat this generation, I do think
it's different now because there's maybe moremusic making and less music consuming which is
(53:30):
very interesting. I like to saywe kind of got out there right at
the right time, because a lotof the venues that we used to perform
at are not hosting music anymore.Like the folk clubs in England, where
we've performed three times we've toured England. There are folks. There's a folk
club tradition there that's amazing, hundredsof years old, but it's kind of
drying up. I mean, it'shard to bring new people into that because
(53:53):
they have other opportunities to put theirmusic out there on platforms not in person,
that reach a different audience and largeraudience in fact, So that tradition
of people just coming together, whichis what the folk clubs in England are
coming together once a week or oncea month, people just a song circle,
(54:13):
everyone playing together, kind of ajam, or maybe one person takes
the lead and they go around inthe circle and then they have artists perform
for them. Sometimes those clubs arehaving more trouble supporting themselves these days because
their members are older and they haven'thad new younger people coming in. So
I think all of that is Idon't look at it as sad, it's
(54:35):
just the evolution of music making andconsuming, and I think it's kind of
exciting to think. So you don'tsee a resurgence, I think again,
a resurgence of people making their ownmusic, but not necessarily a lot of
live venues. Well, there's nota lot of live venues period, for
not just folk music, but forall music. I guess that's it,
(54:57):
yes, because there used to bea place to play me music virtually on
every street in Pittsburgh, and that'sjust not the case any absolutely, which
is a shame because we're losing,you know, that appreciation of watching live
music. You know, it's interestingyou say that, because I'm just thinking.
We actually do get a lot ofunusual gigs, and the kinds of
(55:19):
things we do are like the PittsburghDowntown Partnership has a two series, one
in Melon Square and one in MarketSquare. They do free lunchtime shows and
they will be doing one of eachthat May this month. Those are the
kind of things that communities are supportingas opposed to business with bars maybe that
used to have live music where you'renot seeing it. We perform in a
lot of libraries that have en dowedmusic programs and they have somebody put up
(55:45):
money too that they can have aconcert once a month. Those are great
gigs for us because we have alistening audience diverse people who we wouldn't necessarily
see in other venues. So Ido think there's other ways to hear music.
Now that's different from going to alocal bar and hearing somebody play.
And then of course a lot ofpeople are listening streaming and youtubing and watching
(56:07):
that way. Have you gone oncertain tours? Oh yes, so tell
us about what it's like to beon the road. It really is fun
and Jenny really is our booking agent. She does an amazing job of putting
(56:29):
together tours and that's something that isu It's not easy to do and you
have to have a certain amount oflogistical knowledge and patience to do it,
and she really has pulled together tours. We've done several tours of the Midwest
of libraries and and different places.We did a tour down down south through
(56:51):
Tennessee. We did a Texas tour, a couple of Florida tours, and
then of course our our three toursin England that that Jenny put together,
Wales and Scotland and Wales. It'sall the UK. We just came back
from the Pacific Northwest this past fallin Seattle and Portland. I just find
(57:12):
it it's a fun challenge. Andpeople say, how do you get these
gigs? It's they don't fall inyour lap. You have to work for
it. You have to work forit sometimes years. Yes, yes,
So it helps to have originals.It helps to have quotes from people who
who can vouch for you, andsome videos high quality enough to show what
(57:37):
you really do. You know,also, we are We know what we
are and what we're not, andso we don't try to get gigs at
places that are not gonna be agood fit. And it's helpful to have
a charming person like Jenny who iscalling and emailing these people persistently and nicely
friendly to get these kind of gigs. I'm very thankful for that. So
(58:00):
what do you enjoy most when you? Do you like performing best? Do
you like writing? Do you likewhat? What do you what do you
enjoy about the music that you youcreate? I think I love the performing
definitely. We have such a greattime connecting with people and just we were
just at the airport last week orthe week before. We do that every
(58:22):
season, every quarter the airport haslive music now I don't know if you
guys know, three times a weekon the stage in the airside terminal.
Oh wow, it's okay, awesome. It's perfect for us because we're Pittsburgh
band. Our name is Pittsburgh Band. Like people get it when they get
off the plane. We see themcoming and they see our sign and they
smile and they'll stop and chat tellus where they just have come from or
(58:44):
going to, and it's very casual. That's our favorite sort of performing opportunity.
Yeah. So you know, thethe creation of the idea of the
song, the writing of it,the creating the recording, and then you
get the payoff by performing. Ithink that's right. There is something amazingly
(59:05):
satisfying about creating a song when itworks well, no question about it.
That's different from performing. And that'show I think we can have some songs
we love that we created that wedon't actually ever perform, and that we're
okay, that's okay, because thatjust it was the creation that was very
satisfying. But maybe we can't coverit as well as we render it as
well as we would like, andso it doesn't make it into the performance,
(59:29):
into the setlist. But I thinkwriting a song, when you really
get it to say what you wantedto say and it's just pleasant to your
own ear, there's something very incrediblysatisfying about that. It's like I like
to say, it's like our children, Like you put these children, you
birth these children, and then youhave some influence, and then they grow
(59:51):
up and they kind of become morethan your children, and now they're their
own people. And our songs havehad that feeling to me of like we've
created this thing that now has itsown life. Have you had somebody record
your music? No? Not?Yeah? Is that a goal? We
we have said we want Willie Nelsonto cover Sammy's Old Country Van or Yes,
(01:00:15):
we think he'd be a good person. I think he could do it.
Yeah, I think he would doa nice job with that. And
when I'm gone, Yes, yes, we'll see maybe down the road.
It's not an aspiration, but itwould be a pleasure. But we'll talk
about your aspiration. Where do youwant to go? Where do you want
to take it? Funny ten yearsago people would say, you know,
what's your what's your uh? Wheredo you see yourselves? It's like we
(01:00:37):
actually have kind of events. They'vebeen every day. It's just been a
day. There are no more interms of touring. We just pick a
place we want to go and thenI find us some gigs there. So
we have never followed the gigs.We've let the gigs follow where we want
to be and we've had That's aprivilege to be able to do that.
I'll be totally honest about that.I mean, if we were relying one
(01:00:58):
hundred percent on this income, wewould not it would not work out.
So fortunately for us, we bothhave other sources of income. I'm still
working full time and so the gigmoney is just extra. It's our it's
our secondary income. But so thereare a couple of venues that we still
have not gotten into that that wouldbe great. I mentioned Club Passem in
(01:01:21):
the arc if they ever happened tohear this, and we very much respect
those venues. But mostly we've playedeverywhere we want to play. Yeah,
we've talked about maybe Alaska. Therewas a there's an opportunity for us to
do some traveling there and we setup a New Zealand tour that we then
didn't do. So that's another onemaybe someday to put back on. Do
(01:01:46):
you do you find yourself touring onon vacation and that is your vacation.
That's a one hundred percent yes,yes, which is the probably the reason
I'd handle the booking because more flexibleand I know what I can do,
So yes, what is your legacy? Said? Wow, that's a good
(01:02:08):
one. I hope people will justremember us as something they saw and really
got to kick out of. OhI saw the squirrel, but once they
were fun. When we perform alot of times what people come up and
say to us is that just madethem feel good? Or wow, it's
(01:02:31):
so nice to be able to hearyour lyrics and to understand Those are the
two most common things people I thinkshare and they'll say, you just look
like you're having a ball, andthat that makes me happy. Yeah.
To know that we've brought some pleasureto other people and they certainly have brought
us pleasure. Yeah. And Ithink the greatest compliment that we've gotten is
(01:02:53):
someone who said, you know,I can hear the love in your music
because love it
God knows. This is ann videoand you are Oh, bless your heart.
This is the code of podcast Pittsburgh'smusic scene. Welcome in. I'm
Johnny hert Well, your host,along with Andy Pugar. Today we talked
(00:23):
to the folk duo the Squirrel Hillbillies. You're fine, You're fine, all
right, Jenny Walsk and Gary KrouthThe Squirrel Hillbillies. Now listen. There
have been a lot of great namesof bands. I don't know if it's
(00:43):
the best band name ever, butit's gotta be close. It's gotta be
close. We love it what wetravel with people or sometimes oh the squirrels
are here, and sometimes it's ohthe Hillbillies are here. We think,
oh that's interesting. But if you'refrom the Pittsburgh's get the inside, can
get it. Yeah, and youyou probably can, like if you're out
in Seattle, plan and if somebodysays it, you go exactly right.
(01:04):
In fact, people say, whythe Squirrel Hillbillies. Why aren't you the
Beaver hill Billies or the you know, the Chipmunk Hillbillies. Let me tell
you about these ninety neighborhoods we havein Pittsburgh. Yeah, I love you
so that's the obvious place I needto start is where did you guys come
up with a name? Yeah,that's a good story. So when we
(01:25):
started playing together, we were usingour last names and actually had a different
last name than my name. Now, Walsk is a little more unusual,
but my other last name was moresquirrel. It was a more generic last
name, let's say that. Andso a friend of ours who's a musician,
said, you guys sound like taxaccountants. You know, we were
baneing Crofts. You guys sound liketax accountants. What you need a better
(01:47):
name? Lawyers? Yeah? Yeah, exactly. So I was there's no
money until we get money for you. So I just started pitching names like
crazy, like every probably every otherday. I was giving Gary another name
and Nope, nope, nope.And then I was walking down Murray Avenue
and Squirrel we both live in SquirrelHill, and I was walking down Maurray
Avenue, I was like, weare the Squirrel Hill Billies. For crying
(02:08):
out loud to that instant take,yes, my response was, of course
we are. That's brilliant. It'slike it's perfect. But I think it's
even more special that when you playoutside of Pittsburgh. They don't know what
it is. It's kind of likean inside joke. Absolutely say, we
get to be music ambassador musical ambassadorsfor that reason because then, you know,
(02:30):
you start to talk about your hometown, which is an adopted hometown for
both of us, so it's specialto us. We'll get into that.
But kind of your music styling isto me is kind of prairie home Companion
meets Pittsburgh. I like that.We're gonna quote you on that. You
(02:50):
know, people say, oh,Hillbillies, you play bluegrass, right,
and we say, well, youknow, those are our cousins in West
Virginia. We actually are urban Hillbillies, and so our music is a little
bit different, more rootsy. Wekind of say, you're right, it's
it's really not bluegrass. It's verymuch folk country, old country blues sort
of. You know, we've beendoing this these podcasts for quite some time
(03:12):
and we have yet to have anybodyactually play. I mean, this would
be a perfect opportunity to play andget us so people get an idea of
what you sound like. Can wecan we that? Which song are you
gonna gonna play for it? Sowe do write music and this song is
called Dharma Jane. It is asong that opens with a reference to the
Three Rivers, and it has aBuddhist chant embedded as the refrain. You
(03:38):
have the Buddhist bowl, I havea Tibetan singing bowl here, rich,
it's amazing. I go to sleepwith that noise. I have like a
(03:59):
like a little apple my phone.Yeah, it's just so relaxing. So
this sum we just figured it wasthe right instrument to add to Dharma Jane.
Down by the please swear the threerivers phone, thelue waves, paint
(04:20):
your face on the waters below,the lilt dove, your voice softly chanting.
The line returns as an echo thatsettles my mind. Any pod me
home, Ay, pod me home, Cruising the graveyard, lacking the trees,
(05:00):
filling the branches with feathery leaves,the lift of your hand as you
bid them goodbye. The darkness erupts, and a storm takes the sky.
Palm man, you pod me home, A man, You pod me home?
(05:39):
High on a hillside, city below, following footsteps left long ago,
mindful of storms, and then stillby the edge, whispering words of the
mantra you said, filling your spirit. Hey, where have you gone,
(06:03):
Dharma Jane. I'm hearing your voicein the rain. Where have you gone,
Dharma Jane? Oh? Man youpodme? Who a man? He
(06:29):
apod me? Who a man?Hipod me? Who a man? Hepod
me? Who? Wow? Thatis amazing, you know, it's kind
(06:59):
of fun in my mind. Isee, you know, Dharma Jane reminds
me of the you know, Himalayanmountains, but instead of like, you
know, Mount Everest, it's MountWashington exactly. So what is the song
about? I turn this over toGary for this resident Buddhist. Yes.
Well, the mantra ol Money podniHung is probably the most famous Buddhist mantra
(07:27):
in the world. And even thoughthere's no direct English, there's no direct
translation from the polly into the English, it does talk about the lotus flower,
and the lotus flowers very important inBuddhism because the lotus flower, if
you've ever seen a picture of one, they're big, beautiful flowers and they
only grow in muddy waters. Andas it turns out, the muddier and
(07:49):
the murkier the water is, themore beautiful the lotus flower becomes. And
so it becomes an analogy in Buddhismthat we use the mud and the muck
in our own lives and we usethat to bloom our lives as beautiful as
the lotus flower. The lyrics arebeautiful, It is amazing song. I
(08:13):
have so many questions now because Iwant to talk about the song and songwriting,
because that's that's kind of what wedo with the podcast. We want
to we want to find out,you know, how your love of music
started. And but before we gothere, let me let me ask you
what inspires you to write songs likethat? Is that is that your Buddhist
faith? Is that something? Orwhere does that come from? We we
(08:37):
write our songs together, and soI think this is one where maybe I
came to you, Jenny, andI said, hey, you know,
I've got some I've got the skeletonof some lyrics here about dharma Jane,
because I I have I have friendswho are are also Buddhist, and the
dharma is a is a Buddhist term, and so I did have a friend
(09:01):
who kind of disappeared for a whileand went into a monastery, and so
I was so that's what brought thephrase to me. You know, where
are you dharma Jane? And itkind of grew from that. But then
we brought the Pittsburgh references in andthat's that's when the song really fleshed out,
when I brought it to Jenny.But there are some dark imagery in
(09:22):
the in the song as well,and what does that represent? Yeah,
So there's the cemetery in Squirrel Hill, I think is it called the Home
Cemetery, I can't remember what it'sactually called. That has a lot of
big names buried in it, andwe walk there a lot, like that's
a sort of a routine place forus. And so the imagery of the
second verse talks about the crows inthe graveyard blackening the trees, because in
(09:46):
fact, there was a day whenwe saw all these crows and the trees
just looked like silhouettes of because theywere so full of birds. And then
they just immediately departed, and itwas like this this very dramatic moment of
just a wiet morning in the cemetery, and so that became that second verse
of maybe Darma Jane's presence caused themto depart. We do a lot of
(10:09):
hiking, especially when we tour.We do try to find walks. We're
both big walkers, and so thatthird verse about being up Mount Washington overlooking
and hearing this mantra in your head. I would say it was also inspired
by that walking tradition. You know, whether it's Michaelangelo with a sculpture or
a song, it's a work ofart and it's fascinating to see how you
(10:33):
created that sculpture that song. Youknow, what's so interesting about Darma Jane
is that it had a completely differentaccompaniment when we first wrote it, completely
different. It was much more ofa kind of an old country sound.
And we even performed it and Isaid, something's not right about Dharma Jane.
And I put it back to Gary. Can you recreate it? Boy?
(10:54):
You don't think so. We haveto think about it, and you
could do something like it. Itwould probably sound like one of our other
country songs, like Sammy's Old CountryBand or something. But I said,
I'm hearing like Simon and garfunkally ScarboroughFair and that's where the new accompaniment came
from. So I was very happy. As soon as he came up with
(11:16):
the new company. I said,yes, now we're done with this song.
But when you come to you know, the it seems like music being
recorded today, like this is justa radio studio and what you put on
tape is just amazing. And somany people get focused on pro tools and
you know, plugins and things likethat, and they forget that the craft
(11:41):
is really the artistry is in thesong, the songwriting, the music.
It's interesting you say that. Ido think for us that is true,
that's where our craft lies. Butfor some people it is in the tools
that in fact they I was justwatching a YouTube video of someone who's submitted
for the Tiny Desk Contest, becausewe do that every year on NPR,
and this woman's for people who aren'tfamiliar with us about that guest. So
(12:03):
NPR has a show called the TinyDesk Concert Series and they have every artist
ever gets invited to do one ofthe every big artist and then for people
like us who maybe they haven't discovered. Every year they do a contest and
it's open to the public. Youhave to be in the United States and
be eighteen. Otherwise you just sendthem a video of you doing an original
(12:24):
song, and a desk has tobe in the video somewhere. That's the
only rule. And so we've submittedevery year for the last eight years or
so, and then it gets melooking at a lot of other artists that
submit. It's wonderful community. Thousandsof people do it. And I found
an artist this year who was phenomenal, but she really didn't make much original
music. She did it all ona board and it was so interesting to
(12:46):
see. While that can be anotherform of art, and even within music
making these days, that wasn't whereour tradition comes from. All right,
Yes, okay, I've been around, I've had one position. Now I
agree with you. Okay, forgetwhat I said. I agree with you.
Anything can be art, right,all right? So you know,
(13:07):
the one thing that I love tohear about is what started your love of
music? And do? I letme start with Gary, what so when
did you? When did you discovermusic? Actually I can trace it back
to first grade. I just startedfirst grade in a new elementary school,
(13:28):
and I remember walking down the hallwayand hearing the children's chorus that I guess
we had there at this at theschool, sing Shenandoah, and I think
it was the first time I hadever heard harmony. Because I still remember
that, that moment is like frozenin time for me. I remember that
moment when I heard this harmony,and just I felt something warm inside of
(13:54):
me, and I remember thinking,what is going on? What is this?
Now? Did you come from amusical family. I came from a
family that loved music. My mydad was a piano player, even though
he didn't play in the house,you know. I remember, it wasn't
until I was much older that Iwe were at a place where there was
(14:15):
a piano and he started playing thepiano. I never knew he played it,
but we I grew up with recordsin the house, so we played
music all the time. And whatwere you listening? What were those earlier
My earliest records were Mitch Miller,Bobby Darren, Herb Albert. Those were
(14:35):
the kinds of things that my thatmy parents liked to listen to. So
that's what I And what did youlisten to? What was the first record
you bought? Simon and Garfunkle,Yeah, and then Bob Dylan, Crosby
Stills in Nash It was it wasthat kind of music that I that I
started buying myself. So you lovethe harmonies, Yes, the harmony really
(14:58):
really grabbed me. Maybe in myopinion, Beatles Holli's Crosby, Stills Nash
best harmonies ever, I agree?Did we just become best friends? Yes?
We did? Johnny? All right, now, Jenny, what about
you? Completely different? So myparents or my father's passed away, but
(15:20):
all very musical. He played saxophone. My mother plays piano and sings,
and she's a songwriter, and soI grew up hearing her songs. She
would accompany me. I was reallyI'd learned to play piano and played clarinet,
but mostly I was a singer,and she would accompany me, and
I would go out on auditions.I grew up in New York City.
I was in an office. Iwas in some theater in school and outside
(15:46):
of school, and I was hadno idea. I grew up in Greenwige
Village in the seventies, and Iwas completely oblivious to the folk scene,
real completely oblivious. I was intopop music and Broadway shows and what kind
of what pop music? Specifically,Well, I mean I was Billy Joel
and Indigo Girls and the Kinks andso range. Not just pop, I
(16:07):
guess rock and pop anything on theradio. You know. We were listened
to Casey Kaysum, me and mybrothers every Sunday we would listen to Casey
Kasum Stop st Countdown. So yeah, I really didn't know Joni Mitchell and
Bob or Bob Dylan. And infact they often say who's the guy that
(16:30):
I always forget the name of?Like I literally did not know that music,
that whole genre. And then Iwent off to college, was in
an a cappella group that really suitedme. I loved the harmonizing, the
arranging of music. Again, didmore kind of shows, you know,
Godspell and Hair and those kinds ofthings. Came to Pittsburgh, joined the
(16:52):
Pittsburgh Camarada, which is a corea choir here, and then the Bach
Choir of Pittsburgh, and until Iwas pregnant with my first that I started
learning guitar. So I was thirtythree years old at that point, and
I joined a folk orchestra that meetsat the met at the time at the
(17:14):
Unitarian Church in Shady Side. Itwas open to the public and just would
bring my guitar and everyone was veryencouraging. I wasn't very good and the
folk orchestra. Eventually Gary joined thefolk orchestra to other friends of ours,
and the four of us all becamea quartet outside of the Folk Orchestra.
We called ourselves the New Tourists,and we were a band and we played
(17:37):
out and Gary and I would findat the end of those rehearsals we would
stay longer and want to play moremusic, even when our other two members
absolutely absolutely, And so we decidedto become a duo. We originally did
not write music our first year.We just covered. Gary probably knows fifteen
hundred songs by heart, like heliterally just he's got motor memory. That's
(18:00):
how he knows songs. He knowswhat his fingers do, all right,
Name this tune ready. And itis funny when we performed, people say,
oh, do you know blah blahblah, and he'll he'll know a
song by that artist. He'll knowsome song by them, all right.
Gary, So when did you pickup an instrument? In fifth grade?
I I bugged my parents for along time, telling them I really want
(18:23):
to play guitar. And at firstthey thought, oh, gee, you
know, you know, waste allthis buddy on guitar lessons for this kid,
and he's not gonna he's not goingto go through. But he I
finally convinced them to let me takeguitar lessons, and it was I was
ten years old. Tell him aboutyour first guitar. And my first guitar
was a rented guitar. It wascalled a Spanish guitar. It was huge,
(18:45):
it was very very large. Itwas I think it was larger than
this guitar, and this is ajumbo and the action was way off the
neck and it would really hurt me. I won't say that my fingers bled,
but they really really heard. ButI wanted to play guitar so badly
that I suffered through that. Andthen when you were playing, when you
(19:07):
first learned, what kind of songswere you playing? Really, when I
first started playing, I wasn't evenplaying songs I was playing they were.
They taught me notes, so Ilearned the notes. I learned the FRep
board of the guitar. I learned, and and then I stopped taking lessons
(19:29):
from that person and started taking classicalguitar lessons. So I took classical guitar
lessons from a guitar master who actuallyonce played with Jackie Gleeson orchestra. He
was a horn player, but healso played guitar. And there was more
there was more. There were morepeople that wanted to play guitar than wanted
to play a horn. So hegave guitar lessons and he taught me classical
(19:53):
guitar, and then from there Istarted playing some of the folk songs that
I was listening to, the Simonand Garfunkel songs and the and the Dylan
songs. And you're also from NewYork. I'm from upstate New York with
the anything not in New York Cityis upstate. So I'm from actually Central
New York, Rome, New York, which is right in the foothills of
(20:15):
the Adirontic Mountains. It's a beautiful, beautiful yes, absolutely all right.
So what brought you to Pittsburgh.I graduated from Clarkson University and started working
for Alcoa. They have a plant, or had a plant up in Messina,
New York, which is way atthe top of the hump of New
(20:36):
York State. And I worked atthat plant for two years, and then
I was transferred to Pittsburgh to starta new program because of the changes in
the in the laws and the environmentallaws, and so that happened in nineteen
eighty. So were you playing outwhen you were living in New York.
(20:57):
No for your coffee house, Well, that was that was after I moved
to oh Well, during college.During college. Yes, I I ran
a college college. I know alot of most of us don't remember our
college years, but it does count. That's that's right. Thank you for
reminding me that I did have acoffee house career. When I was in
(21:21):
college, I played at various coffeehouses. And again it was I didn't
I wasn't writing very much. Iwrote a little bit. It was mostly
cover songs of Dylan. When didyou discover the aptitude of playing so many,
so many songs? When did youknow that you did? It just
become It never occurred to me thatthere that I knew a lot of songs.
(21:41):
I'm just I'm just old and soyou're wise. Thank you well edit
that in I'm wise? Uh so? Uh? Of all a song?
Like? What kind of genres ofmusic? Is it all folk music or
(22:03):
is it a variety of songs?I would say it's mostly. I mean,
there are some pop songs I've learned. I I usually will fall in
love with an artist and then learnlike I love Tom Waits, and so
I learned a couple of Tom Waitssongs. I love old jazz, and
so I've I've learned a couple ofold jazz songs, a song by Harlem
(22:25):
ham Fats, but mostly of folkssongs. And and of course I fell
in love with old blues, oldcountry blues, and so Mississippi John hurt
Uh and and those kinds of folks, Robert Johnson, you know, the
old blues from the thirties and andeven some of the twenties. Blind Blake
(22:48):
fell in love with that music andlearned and learned quite a few of those
songs. What what what is itabout that music that called you? That's
a good question, because I'm notI'm not sure I know the answer to
that. I had a similar experiencethat I had with Shenandoah when I was
in first grade. I had asimilar experience with country blues where I walked
into a coffeehouse when I was incollege and someone was playing the Hesitation blues.
(23:14):
It was the first time I'd everreally heard that that style of music,
and it grabbed me right away.And I remember walking away from that
experience saying, I've got to learnthis kind of music. When did you
start writing I wrote some pretty notso good songs when I was in high
school and then stopped writing. Haveyou heard these songs? No? Actually,
(23:38):
I haven't ever heard some of hisold stuff, but he has books
of stuff he's written. I'll playsome of my some of my old stuff.
You won't like it. It isa funny songwriting process because we do
come from such different backgrounds of whatwe love. And I think my theory
about Gary and old Blues is it'sa very intuitive song sound, and it's
(24:03):
very loose and very unproduced, andoften even the meter will change in the
midst of the song and it's likedid they know they did that or were
they just feeling it? Or isit deliberate? And that all kind of
is scary, I think personality wisetoo. And then he brings that loose,
kind of improvisational, intuitive process andthen I'm very sorrebral about music and
(24:29):
it has very mathematical and it hasto line up. And so it is
a great tension between the two thatI think is where our music gets it's
kind of unique quality to it.I could feel that with Dharma James.
It was, you know, ithas a very loose structure, but you
(24:51):
bring this almost a preciseness of thevocals, and I love that sometimes you
don't get that with with folk music. Interesting well, in fact, Bob
Dylan, I mean right, he'sthat very loose, and I think a
lot of people love about his musicis that it's so relatable and it's so
actually easy to cover, it's easyto sing along to, and he kind
(25:12):
of emphasizes that doesn't even matter howyou sound, it's really what you're doing
with what you have, and howyou're enjoying what you're doing. And that
influence on me has been great asa songwriter because it's not from inside of
me that I feel like Gary hasbrought and brought that whole world to me.
That's helped me write songs. Sowhen do you start writing? I
(25:33):
did not write a single. Well, I guess those first song I wrote
was with my daughter. I thinkwe were already writing songs by then,
though it was early if not,But anyway, I think that was as
comfortable as I was with songwriting,was oh, I can help my kids
write a song. Even listening tomy mom growing up, I just thought,
well, that's not me. Idon't have that inside of me.
(25:56):
And when we started together writing coveringsongs. We did a bunch of shows
locally where we could do covers,and there were venues where you couldn't perform
unless you had original music, andwe just thought, well, we're not
going to do those venues. Andthen an artist came to town named Joe
Crookston and he's a folk artist basedin Ithaca and I love his music.
(26:18):
I absolutely love his music. Andhe performed and we took him out for
a year after. We went tochurch brew Works and I was sitting next
to him and chatting with him,and he said, so, what kind
of music do you guys write AndI said, oh, we don't write
music. He said why not.I said, there's so much good stuff
out there. Why would why wouldwe need to? We can cover your
stuff, you know, other people's. And at the end of the meal,
(26:41):
he walked us back to our carsand he said, I think you
have something to say. I thinkyou might want to try some songwriting.
And by the next time he camea year later, we opened for him
with all original music. That's socool, so I always credit Joe Crookston.
He just came back to town acouple of weeks ago, a club
(27:03):
cafe and I sang with him onhis song, and I just felt like
something unlocked to have this artist Iadmire so much say that and he has
such Did he notice? Did heknows that you had written songs? Absolutely,
we've told him that story. Infact, he tells that story.
Yes, he knows that he inspiredor I give him credit for. Of
(27:25):
course, Gary was already writing.And so what it meant then was I
said to Gary, let's write somemusic, and he said, well,
I already have some stuff. Whydon't you take a listen. And I
listened to a bunch of things,and two songs just popped out immediately,
and one was No Bone Yes,and one was when I'm Gone, When
I'm Gone, And those were ourfirst two collaborations. And one of those
(27:51):
songs changed quite a bit since then, the first writing of it. But
after that we just started this processwhere one would bringing to the other.
So, Gary, obviously you werewriting songs. Had you performed any any
of your songs live prior to Jenny? Oh no, oh no, I
mean these were songs that I wouldand actually actually they would be parts of
(28:15):
songs. And so When I'm Goneand No Bone were partial songs that I
recorded for Jenny when she went onvacation and said, hey, take a
listen to these and see if anyof these sound. And those were two
that she selected, but then shehelped me finish them. Were the words
and music, yes, they werethat he had a verse at least a
(28:37):
verse for each and the music.And I'm not sure any of those original
lyrics stage. Probably some of them. We probably have documentation of it.
The process is so involved that itis often at the end sometimes we'll argue
about who gets credit for a givenword, because he'll be like, I
thought I could, No, Idid that, So it is hard to
(28:59):
know. Some songs are like,oh, that's a Gary song. Like
Gary brought almost the entire song tome, and all I had to do
was like figure out the structure ofit, like maybe it needed a different
refrain. All right, So thosefirst two songs, yes, and you
heard them, and you there wassomething about that song? And were you
eager or reluctant to add to whatgives such a great question. I'm so
(29:23):
for anyone listening who likes interested insongwriting, hasn't ever tried it, I
say go find a partner. Itis such a different process to write as
in a partnership. For me,it's so liberating to have something come to
me and just be able to respondto it rather than have a blank paper.
I find it to be the differencefor me and so him bringing me
(29:44):
something, even if I hate it, it gets me thinking how can I
love it? And usually if Ihate it, okay, we're not going
to proceed. But No Bone isa good example. That is a song
I would never have written on myown. It's very strange, it's unusual.
Will you play it? I don'thave my drums, but you can?
Yeah, sure, sure, atleast at the beginning. I mean
(30:11):
you get the vibe of it.Yeah, we can. Do you want
the whole thing? Or okay,hey we got nothing to do it?
All day to do it? Gary, this is your podcast. You do
whatever you want. We open upmy fridge. Now what do I see?
Just empty space staring out at methat fridge. Say now, what
(30:38):
you're gonna do? The lid wandsare all depending on you. Stupod say
not much here? There ain't muchhere. A spider moved in late last
year. Oh my dear stove,say go before it's to live me,
(31:03):
no fat, no bone. It'sbeen so long since the little one's egg.
Go now, don't you wait?No meat, no me, no
fat, no bone, no meat, no fat, no bone. What's
gone? And make me shout andmoan, leave my little ones all alone,
(31:29):
No meat, no fat, nobone. I started on down the
streets. I started down the street. A big rude, bigger it come
after me? How can that be? I took it down. I took
it home. No me, nofat, no bone, And I fed
(31:52):
it to the little one. Solonge, they're so longe. No meat,
no me, no fat, nobone, no meat, no fat,
no bone. Well it's gone,And make me shout and moan,
leave my little ones all alone,no meat, no fat, no bone.
(32:20):
Well the little ones eat till thebellies were full. Then they went
to sleep in the mixing ball.This lept on through the half past town.
No fight, no phone said,let's have some rood a big again.
Come on, let's see it again. No me, no me,
(32:45):
no fat, no bone, nomeat, no fat, no bone.
On what's god? And make meshout and moan, leave my little ones
all alone? No meat, nofat, no bone, no meat,
(33:07):
no fat, no bone. Whenyou first wrote it, Did it have
that call in response? No,it didn't and it didn't have and it
didn't have a lot of the wordseither. Yes. So what's funny about
that song is it was inspired bya compost bin that said no meat,
(33:29):
no fat, no bones on thebin. And Gary's a big composter,
and I'm a I happened to bevegetarian, and so I thought it was
just hilarious. No meat, Yeah, no meat. Nobody should be eating
meat. And so I liked thatI could shout. I just liked that
idea. I know, I couldshow them. Did do you appreciate the
history of folk music? Do yousee where it came from? Did you
(33:51):
do you do you? Did yougo down that rabbit hole when you first
started playing? Not when I firststarted playing, but since then, I've
been interested in the process of offolk music and uh, you know the
Woody g. Guthrie tradition and andthe people that preceded him. Yes,
certainly there's something about folk music thatit just it's just so accessible. Well
(34:15):
yeah, but you know, likeI don't think either one of us you
know where that that song went islike you know, you can see a
family, but no, no,fat, no meat. And that's that's
that's kind of goes back to theroots of folk music. Is that where
you when you write, do youkind of do you look at the history
(34:37):
of folk music and kind of goalong with that tradition or is that just
you just maybe it just you don'tknow where it goes. No. I
I go out and put composts inthe compost bin, and and I and
I see the words on the onthe lid saying no meat, no fat,
no bones. And I walk awaysinging, no meat, no fat,
(34:57):
no bone, no meat, nofat, no bone. That is
the greatest response ever. Because youdon't know where your your inspiration comes from
ever you know could come from anywhere. Is that the strangest place you've you
received inspiration? Tell me engines,please story. We won't play it,
but tell me. Okay, well, I'll abbreviate the story. I used
(35:20):
to have a very old BMW threetwenty I that I bought new in nineteen
eighty and I kept that car livefor many, many years, and finally
the engine died on it coming backfrom Washington, d C. To Pittsburgh,
and I took it to my mechanicand my mechanics said, well,
if you want to be crazy aboutthis, we can rebuild the engine,
(35:43):
but we'll have to send it toMemphis, Tennessee because those are the people
that really know how to rebuild thesekinds of engines. So I said,
yeah, fine. So he tookthe engine out and he sent it down
to Memphis, Tennessee. And itnever got there. It got We're not
sure, we're not sure what happenedto it. It got lost, and
uh, how do you lose?Well, that's what that what that's what.
(36:07):
The question was, how do youlose a ton of an engine or
a half of a ton engine?And so my mechanic felt very very bad
about it, and he called meand told me the sad story. And
I was very sad for a while. And I was telling Jenny about this
and she I was whining and moaningand complaining and and and Jenny said,
(36:29):
hey, suck it up. You'rea blues player. Sing a song,
but read song about it. Andso I took that to heart, and
I wrote a song called engine Blues, and we actually played it for my
mechanic. He enjoyed that. Whatare some of the lyrics? So we
have an idea of where that wherethat well, you haven't in your fingers.
I just didn't want to commit himto because it's a hard well,
(36:51):
I mean, just just tell methe lyrics that started off. Let's see.
I know, without playing it's hardto let me get it. Yeah,
it tells the story of an enginegone missing and saying it's between Memphis,
somewhere between Memphis, Pittsburgh and Memphis, Tennessee. Yeah, it talks,
and it talks about what might.You may think this is funny,
(37:13):
you may say it's untrue. Butwithout an engine, my car just won't
do it. Sits like a sculpture, all quiet and demure when it wants
to be a seventy mile an hourblur. My engine is missing, misled,
mislaid. It's a mystery lost inspace someplace between Pittsburgh and Memphis,
Tennessee. That's fabulous. We goon to say, well, maybe the
emphasis, maybe the engine made itsway down to New Orleans and it's down
(37:36):
there drinking, having a time ofit. You know, it's it's it's
going around the country, it's touringthe maybe it's been it's been detained for
questioning somewhere it gets it gets kindof silly, but one to obey exactly.
We have fun with it. Wehad o if that engine could talk.
All right, now, let's getback to the partnership. So you
(37:59):
you kind of, you know,found yourself in a in the what was
the band the Tourists new Tourists,the New Tourists and what kind of music
were you playing? Similar stuff?Actually, but we weren't writing stuff.
We were covering like the the Mammalsand the Ducks. The Ducks who are
string band from Canada. Brian Junker, who's in the was in our quartetan
(38:23):
as a friend of ours. He'sgot a great taste for music and he
would bring us kind of unknown bandsto cover. Then you spent some time
after rehearsal playing with each other andyou found that simpatico, like I said,
And it's very easy to play musicwith Gary because he is just a
very easy going person, which isa lot. The chemistry of a band
(38:46):
is an important piece. I thinksometimes bands implode because of the personalities within
it. And Gary's just easy toplay music with. And then when did
you decide to play together out Itwas back in February of twenty ten,
(39:07):
and I think our first gig wasthat Spreadship, Yes, flower festival exactly.
It was just a community event andwe went and played out and I
don't think I'm sure we didn't getpaid. We got paid in they gave
us a little tokens that we couldget free flowers. That's right. It
was a bartering situation. We dida lot of bartering in our early days.
(39:27):
But we got a gig from maybeit wasn't from that, but from
another gig shortly after where we werejust playing out in a community event and
a woman who helps run a whosefamily runs the Gateway Lodge and Cook Forest
anything to see us, and sheinvited us. And so this is in
twenty ten or that. Oh whatwas her name, fabulous Jody was the
(39:49):
daughter, but her mom and becauseit was family run, I don't know
her mom's name yet. Oh mygod, you've been up there all many
times. I'd see, that's myI went to school with Clarion. I
only wanted to go to school theresimply because of the I love the woods,
Cook's Forest and things like that.Yes, Oh, so that's where
a lot of our music has beenwritten because we've bartered with them over the
(40:13):
years and done several retreats where wespend a week in the cabin and we
performed there, but we write whilewe're there, and they closed for a
while and I think it's reopened noware they still? Are they bringing?
We haven't been back since COVID thatin fact, it was the last gig
before COVID that we did was upthere, and then we haven't been back
there. We've performed other worse placessince, but not there a little sidebar
there. Sorry if I'm no,no, no, But going back to
(40:36):
the first gig, how was it? It was windy? We've had We
used to say we've had fun atall our gigs, Like we've performed probably
six seven hundred by now, andthere've just been so very very few where
we didn't have fun because even nomatter what's going on, like we just
(40:58):
can sing with each other. Andit's another benefit of being in a duo
that I think would be very hardas a solo artist to get to a
bad venue or something that's just unpleasantor someone in the crowd or the conditions,
and it would be hard if you'reby yourself, but you got someone
else there, you're like, oh, we're just gonna enjoy ourselves. That's
right. Yeah, So we've hada lot of fun at our shows over
(41:21):
the years. So you were playingtogether, but mainly covers for that first
year. By the time we aretwenty twelve, that was twenty ten.
By twenty twelve we came out withour first CD. But by the time
our first CD came out, weactually had half the music for our second
CD already. Well, tell meabout crafting that first CD. What was
the process, how was it?What was that like? Was that fun?
(41:43):
You know sometimes when you first createsomething that it's something endearing, it's
getting to that. It's that journeyof coming up with something that tangible item
that CD. What was that processlike? If we had to do it
like he was, we were justtalking about record deals, which we've never
done a record deal. Like ifwe had to produce a record, I
(42:04):
think it would have been a verydifferent situation where both midlife we didn't we
we didn't have to do anything.We just had some songs that we thought
would be good and we recorded themall ourselves in my house. Gary has
great equipment, so we had micsand a board, and then we found
a guy in exactly and go backto Joe Crookston, who I'd given credit
(42:30):
to. He mixed his own CDsin Ehaca, New York with an artist
with a sound engineer, and sothat's who we had mixed our first CD.
We thought, well, we likewhat he does, so we went
out to Will Russell Russell Thank Youin Ithaca, New York, and and
mixed our first No, he mixedand mastered it for us. Yeah,
(42:52):
the process has been so unpredictable inthat sometimes, Like one of our songs
called Refugee, was a poem thatI wrote one night. The entire poem
I wrote, but it was calledrescue Me and almost all the same words,
but the refrain was rescue me andit was me in a really dark
(43:13):
place. And I sent it toGary by text, here's here's this poem
I wrote, and he said,that's going to need some cheerful music or
it's just going to be a downer. And he gave me this like Sesame
Street like almost accompaniment, like thetheme song for Sesame Street. It has
that feel to me. It's abouncy yeah, it's lovely. And then
(43:37):
when that came back and I listenedto that, I said, oh,
you know what rescue Me is toomuch. This is about finding your poem,
finding a place when you don't knowwhere you belong. It's kind of
like a refugee. So that issort of how our process can work.
It's never been we need to writea song, like, let's sit down
and do that a song a day, kind of thing that some artists do.
(44:00):
Often it'll be one of us justsaying I have an idea, what
do you think we can do withthis? We had a song. Some
of our songs we work. Someare like no work at all and insane
when we're apart, which is i'dsay one of our like more I don't
know, really crafted songs in asense. I remember that that last line
happening in the refrain where we justcouldn't quite figure out how to bring it
(44:23):
back together. And I brought mykids over after school one day. We're
sitting in Gary's living room. Soit's like a very organic process. Well,
getting back to Rescue Me and Refugee. When you send it to Gary,
did you intend like, hey,this could be a song or was
(44:45):
this just something this is something thatyou're just bearing your soul? It probably
was just bearing my soul. Buteverything I'd do is with the notion that
we might turn it into But Ithink it was just bearing my soul that
night. Yeah, are you reluctantf to present an idea to the other
person. I think that at thispoint we've been together as a music partnership
(45:12):
for so long that there is acertain amount of vulnerability. But I think
there's also at least this is whatI feel. I feel a certain faith
in our system that I can bringsomething to Jenny and I will get an
honest reaction. And with that faith, I'm not reluctant at all. No,
I have no reluctancy EI there.And you know, Gary has brought
(45:36):
songs like where I just feel likethat's a Gary song one hundred percent and
it's great, but I can't ownit. It doesn't feel like something I
would do. And he had thissong called like Everybody's rich when Nobody's poor,
Everybody's wealthy when nobody's poor. Yes, And so he performed that somewhere
else by himself, and he gotan opportunity to do that. And it
(45:57):
wasn't that the theme was wrong,It just like it just didn't feel like
I could contribute anything it kind offelt like it was its own thing.
And there are times when he'll bringme something and I'll just say, I
just don't know where to go withthat. Or we have songs where the
entire song got rewritten in the processof songwriting, where it didn't even end
up in the same topic. That'sfascinating, it is, and I think
(46:21):
we're both very open too well.Sometimes we're resistant. There are times we
have to put it aside and say, we can't do anything else with this
song. It just doesn't want tofinish itself. And have you revisited that
one of those songs and brought itback to life? Yes, and sometimes
yes and sometimes no. We havea song called Bless You Man that I
think we both love, but we'venever and it's on our one of our
(46:45):
CDs, and we have performed it, but we've never felt like it's just
got it all together yet, andso I've tried to revisit it many times
and I just can't haven't been ableto figure it out. Have you ever
had a song where or maybe thetone or the change of music or maybe
the words changed once you start performingit. Absolutely, And I'm glad you
(47:07):
asked because that's actually I would sayanother thing about us is that we have
different sensibilities about sort of what's acceptable, what's appropriate, what's and that's also
a tension in a good way thatcontributes to songwriting. So we just covered
a song by another local artist aspart of a project that was such a
fun project. And this is anartist whose music has not been covered by
(47:30):
a lot of people, and ithad one word in it that I just
thought, I don't know, Idon't know, I don't if it's going
to trigger the wrong thing in peopleand listeners. But to Gary it was
like, hmm, it's fine.And so I reached out to the artists
and said what do you think aboutus changing this word? And he was
like, oh, I never thoughtof it, but sure you can change
if you want. And so itwas the kind of thing where had Gary
(47:52):
would have been fine singing it,I just wasn't. It had to.
It was coming out of my mouth. It just didn't feel right. But
had the artist set who wrote itsaid no, that's the word I would
have I would have sung it.So I think there is that sort of
different sensibilities that comes into songwriting aswell. Tell us about the folks scene
(48:14):
in Pittsburgh. Oh, tell aboutsong Space. Yes, So there are
some some concert series that are maybenot as well known as they should be.
And one I'm involved with which iscalled the song Space Series and it's
(48:36):
based at the First Unitarian Church inShadyside, And even though I'm not a
member of the church, I'm ontheir their committee. So this is how
open the Unitarians are. And andwe put on a few concerts I would
say about five a year, sonot it's not a weekly, monthly or
even quarterly thing, but and wetry to get national artists, but we
(49:01):
also focus on some of the localartists and as openers, and I've heard
some incredibly talented local artists through havingthem as openers as part of the song
Space series. When their January showevery year is actually features a local artist
as the main act, and wedid. We were the feature last year,
(49:22):
not this past January, but theyear before, and we were invited
to find our own opening acts andso we got to find we decided to
look for young folks singers and there'sa woman named Madeline Joe we discovered who's
at pitt and she has a band, and we also found Louis Castle,
who is amazing guitarist. There arepeople doing cool things here in Pittsburgh,
(49:45):
especially in Oakland, in like houseconcerts at pitt people doing their basements and
things like that. What is thehistory of your kind of music in Pittsburgh?
Is there a rich history? Heused to that that festival, the
Smoky Well the The other group thatis involved with folk music in Pittsburgh is
(50:09):
the Calliope Group, and they haveclasses that they teach, they have a
concert series, and they've been activein Pittsburgh for I think since the seventies,
and they were active when I movedhere in nineteen eighty. And they
used to have a festival every yearcalled the Smoky City Folk Festival and they
(50:30):
would have primarily local folk musicians andplay at that. And where are the
hotspots around the country for your kindof music? There's in Boston in ann
Arbor, these club Pessime and theArc. It's a good point. It's
(50:51):
a good point. In fact,Yeah, there's there are a few venues.
There's sort of the three to fivehundred people venues, smaller intimate.
You know, house concerts are areally big thing in folk music. I
don't know if you guys are familiarwith that concept. But where people put
on a show in their own houseand I've hosted them in fact and fabulous,
(51:12):
Oh it's wonderful. There are severalpeople locally who host them and you
just get on their list serves.One is a Colliope board member who had
us to do a house concert andshe does a lot of hosts a lot
of concerts, and then you getto meet not only do these are touring
artists and they get you know,they'll usually have twenty twenty five dollars ahead
goes directly the artists. The hostdoesn't take any of it. And then
(51:34):
there's often a meal and you'll getto meet the artist and chat and then
they'll also maybe sell merchandise and they'llstay over free housing for them. So
it works for everybody. And I'dsay that's how we get to meet some
artists from out of town and howwe also get to perform when we're out
of town. And in between shows, I DJ a lot of weddings.
(51:55):
Oh yes, And what is whatis crazy, what is really incredible is
there's usually you set up music forthe cocktail hour or the dinner music and
over the last four or five years, more and more folk music, Americana
music is what they are gravitating towards. Is that something that you're experiencing kind
(52:21):
of a resurgence of like roots music. It's interesting, I would say,
because I do listen to pop music. I would say, you know,
you see banjo, you see ukulelein pop music these days. I think
there's always been that tradition of evena big heavy metal band having an acoustic
song and the unplugged song, Sothat's probably that isn't new, But I
(52:45):
would say that there is a respectin the younger generations for that kind of
music and more playing of it themselves, which you know, I think that
folk music really is just people ofmusic of the people, And in that
regard, I think that this newgeneration that can make their own music so
easily, produce it themselves, putit up on YouTube or out on Spotify
(53:08):
or other platforms, it's all veryexciting. It opens the whole world up
to a lot. What do youthink draws them in to a younger generation?
What drew you in? I thinkthat this generation, I do think
it's different now because there's maybe moremusic making and less music consuming which is
(53:30):
very interesting. I like to saywe kind of got out there right at
the right time, because a lotof the venues that we used to perform
at are not hosting music anymore.Like the folk clubs in England, where
we've performed three times we've toured England. There are folks. There's a folk
club tradition there that's amazing, hundredsof years old, but it's kind of
drying up. I mean, it'shard to bring new people into that because
(53:53):
they have other opportunities to put theirmusic out there on platforms not in person,
that reach a different audience and largeraudience in fact, So that tradition
of people just coming together, whichis what the folk clubs in England are
coming together once a week or oncea month, people just a song circle,
(54:13):
everyone playing together, kind of ajam, or maybe one person takes
the lead and they go around inthe circle and then they have artists perform
for them. Sometimes those clubs arehaving more trouble supporting themselves these days because
their members are older and they haven'thad new younger people coming in. So
I think all of that is Idon't look at it as sad, it's
(54:35):
just the evolution of music making andconsuming, and I think it's kind of
exciting to think. So you don'tsee a resurgence, I think again,
a resurgence of people making their ownmusic, but not necessarily a lot of
live venues. Well, there's nota lot of live venues period, for
not just folk music, but forall music. I guess that's it,
(54:57):
yes, because there used to bea place to play me music virtually on
every street in Pittsburgh, and that'sjust not the case any absolutely, which
is a shame because we're losing,you know, that appreciation of watching live
music. You know, it's interestingyou say that, because I'm just thinking.
We actually do get a lot ofunusual gigs, and the kinds of
(55:19):
things we do are like the PittsburghDowntown Partnership has a two series, one
in Melon Square and one in MarketSquare. They do free lunchtime shows and
they will be doing one of eachthat May this month. Those are the
kind of things that communities are supportingas opposed to business with bars maybe that
used to have live music where you'renot seeing it. We perform in a
lot of libraries that have en dowedmusic programs and they have somebody put up
(55:45):
money too that they can have aconcert once a month. Those are great
gigs for us because we have alistening audience diverse people who we wouldn't necessarily
see in other venues. So Ido think there's other ways to hear music.
Now that's different from going to alocal bar and hearing somebody play.
And then of course a lot ofpeople are listening streaming and youtubing and watching
(56:07):
that way. Have you gone oncertain tours? Oh yes, so tell
us about what it's like to beon the road. It really is fun
and Jenny really is our booking agent. She does an amazing job of putting
(56:29):
together tours and that's something that isu It's not easy to do and you
have to have a certain amount oflogistical knowledge and patience to do it,
and she really has pulled together tours. We've done several tours of the Midwest
of libraries and and different places.We did a tour down down south through
(56:51):
Tennessee. We did a Texas tour, a couple of Florida tours, and
then of course our our three toursin England that that Jenny put together,
Wales and Scotland and Wales. It'sall the UK. We just came back
from the Pacific Northwest this past fallin Seattle and Portland. I just find
(57:12):
it it's a fun challenge. Andpeople say, how do you get these
gigs? It's they don't fall inyour lap. You have to work for
it. You have to work forit sometimes years. Yes, yes,
So it helps to have originals.It helps to have quotes from people who
who can vouch for you, andsome videos high quality enough to show what
(57:37):
you really do. You know,also, we are We know what we
are and what we're not, andso we don't try to get gigs at
places that are not gonna be agood fit. And it's helpful to have
a charming person like Jenny who iscalling and emailing these people persistently and nicely
friendly to get these kind of gigs. I'm very thankful for that. So
(58:00):
what do you enjoy most when you? Do you like performing best? Do
you like writing? Do you likewhat? What do you what do you
enjoy about the music that you youcreate? I think I love the performing
definitely. We have such a greattime connecting with people and just we were
just at the airport last week orthe week before. We do that every
(58:22):
season, every quarter the airport haslive music now I don't know if you
guys know, three times a weekon the stage in the airside terminal.
Oh wow, it's okay, awesome. It's perfect for us because we're Pittsburgh
band. Our name is Pittsburgh Band. Like people get it when they get
off the plane. We see themcoming and they see our sign and they
smile and they'll stop and chat tellus where they just have come from or
(58:44):
going to, and it's very casual. That's our favorite sort of performing opportunity.
Yeah. So you know, thethe creation of the idea of the
song, the writing of it,the creating the recording, and then you
get the payoff by performing. Ithink that's right. There is something amazingly
(59:05):
satisfying about creating a song when itworks well, no question about it.
That's different from performing. And that'show I think we can have some songs
we love that we created that wedon't actually ever perform, and that we're
okay, that's okay, because thatjust it was the creation that was very
satisfying. But maybe we can't coverit as well as we render it as
well as we would like, andso it doesn't make it into the performance,
(59:29):
into the setlist. But I thinkwriting a song, when you really
get it to say what you wantedto say and it's just pleasant to your
own ear, there's something very incrediblysatisfying about that. It's like I like
to say, it's like our children, Like you put these children, you
birth these children, and then youhave some influence, and then they grow
(59:51):
up and they kind of become morethan your children, and now they're their
own people. And our songs havehad that feeling to me of like we've
created this thing that now has itsown life. Have you had somebody record
your music? No? Not?Yeah? Is that a goal? We
we have said we want Willie Nelsonto cover Sammy's Old Country Van or Yes,
(01:00:15):
we think he'd be a good person. I think he could do it.
Yeah, I think he would doa nice job with that. And
when I'm gone, Yes, yes, we'll see maybe down the road.
It's not an aspiration, but itwould be a pleasure. But we'll talk
about your aspiration. Where do youwant to go? Where do you want
to take it? Funny ten yearsago people would say, you know,
what's your what's your uh? Wheredo you see yourselves? It's like we
(01:00:37):
actually have kind of events. They'vebeen every day. It's just been a
day. There are no more interms of touring. We just pick a
place we want to go and thenI find us some gigs there. So
we have never followed the gigs.We've let the gigs follow where we want
to be and we've had That's aprivilege to be able to do that.
I'll be totally honest about that.I mean, if we were relying one
(01:00:58):
hundred percent on this income, wewould not it would not work out.
So fortunately for us, we bothhave other sources of income. I'm still
working full time and so the gigmoney is just extra. It's our it's
our secondary income. But so thereare a couple of venues that we still
have not gotten into that that wouldbe great. I mentioned Club Passem in
(01:01:21):
the arc if they ever happened tohear this, and we very much respect
those venues. But mostly we've playedeverywhere we want to play. Yeah,
we've talked about maybe Alaska. Therewas a there's an opportunity for us to
do some traveling there and we setup a New Zealand tour that we then
didn't do. So that's another onemaybe someday to put back on. Do
(01:01:46):
you do you find yourself touring onon vacation and that is your vacation.
That's a one hundred percent yes,yes, which is the probably the reason
I'd handle the booking because more flexibleand I know what I can do,
So yes, what is your legacy? Said? Wow, that's a good
(01:02:08):
one. I hope people will justremember us as something they saw and really
got to kick out of. OhI saw the squirrel, but once they
were fun. When we perform alot of times what people come up and
say to us is that just madethem feel good? Or wow, it's
(01:02:31):
so nice to be able to hearyour lyrics and to understand Those are the
two most common things people I thinkshare and they'll say, you just look
like you're having a ball, andthat that makes me happy. Yeah.
To know that we've brought some pleasureto other people and they certainly have brought
us pleasure. Yeah. And Ithink the greatest compliment that we've gotten is
(01:02:53):
someone who said, you know,I can hear the love in your music
because love it
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.