Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:20):
Good morning, Welcome back to Community Connections and Commerce. It's
cold in this room, probably cold outside as well. I'm
Drake Watson, along with Wendy Anderson as always in our
special guest this morning, Jim Millison. Jim, we appreciate you
coming on this morning and taking the time out of
your day to come talk to us. I know there's
a lot better things you could be doing right now,
but we are grateful for your time this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Welcome Jim. We really appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Thanks Wendy.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
So, I've got a ton of notes here that I've
written down just in the short time that we've spoken
before coming on here, and you've got a lot of
titles and a lot of things that you're involved in.
I guess I'll jump in first with your kind of
energy background and kind of what your story is. I mean,
asident of the Ohio Valley Energy Association, you do a
ton of things with oil and gas. You mentioned two
and fifty Pioneer as well. Just kind of dive in
(01:07):
if you could, on all the things that you do
and kind of how you got to where you are.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, the energy business has always been part of the
High Valley, whether it was gas, oil, coal, or well say,
natural resources in general. But I got my start in
two thousand and four Marietta College. My youngest son decided
to major in patrolling engineering and came home for Thanksgiving
(01:33):
and talked to my dad about horizontal drilling. And I
leaned over to my wife and I said, what the
heck are we paying thirty eight thousand dollars a year
for him to go to Marietta. He must not be
going to classes. And she said why, I said, because
he's talking about drilling laterally and you don't drill well laterally.
And I said, I don't think he's going to classes. Well,
(01:54):
little did I know. So that winter I went down
and met doctor Chase, who was the head of the
Patrolling Engineering department. And from that day forward, I've been
involved in oil and gas. And my son is left
Marietta College when he graduated and has been working for
Chevron ever since in the Houston office. And he and
(02:17):
I together decided that energy was going to be a
long time future in Ohio. So my older brother in
seven worked for Governor Strickland at the O D and
R as the assistant director for Department natural resources. So
we started getting ahead of what then was the Marcellus
(02:38):
and what are we going to do in Ohio? So
we started researching Point Pleasant and the Utica shale, created
maps on the dry gas, the wet gas, the heavy liquids,
and the oil. Window took those maps in O seven
and traveled to Oklahoma, Texas, Colorado, Louisiana and went to
(03:02):
every conference we could possibly go to to promote what
we called them the Utica Point Pleasant Shale, and people
thought we were crazy. By twenty ten, we'd got the
right people in and Aubrey McClendon at that time, CEO
of Chesapeake and I had a long sit down and
he basically said, we're trying to hurry up and lease
(03:24):
as much ground as we possibly can before you dumb
hillbillies wake up. And that struck a chord, struck a
chord hard that in my mother. She lived on a
farm in Caddis Harrison County, and her family sold their
coal rights, and never in my granddad's wildest dreams would
(03:47):
he had dreamed that there was going to be a
high wall and they would mine right up to the milkhouse.
But they did, and that made my mom get into
the real estate business, so she would understand land and
contracts and minerals, which that's why I got in the
real estate business. But more importantly, we're not going to
let this happen to landowners. More importantly, mineral owners of
(04:08):
the Ohigh Valley get to Educating people was the thing
we got to do. So, just like I got educated
at Marietta through my son, we started holding public meetings
all over the Ohigh Valley, went to West Virginia, went
to PA, went to Northeast PA where the Marcellus had
(04:28):
been going on since O four. Talk to landowners, talk
to farmers, said what would you do different today if
you would known then what you know now? So we
started doing education and now I've made it my life's
work since seven to educate people. And that's how we
really got started in the energy business.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Wow, that's a great story.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Okay, since then everything's just got a ruled.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah, all right, So you are invested in the community
and everything that I had written down that you do.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Why?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
What's your why?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I suppose the why is my grandkids, the environment, the land.
Being a real estate brokerage owner. Our companies named Homeland
and we're going to protect the homeland. My family came
from Scotland in sixteen fifty two on a prisoner ship,
(05:31):
believe it or not, because they wouldn't bow to the
king and they wanted to be free. They didn't want
to be controlled by a dictator or king, so they
got shipped to the Americas in sixteen fifty two. By
seventeen ninety they had found their way through the Appalachian
Mountains and across the river. True pioneers. So that kind
(05:55):
of plays into our companies. Hard work, dedication, fighting off
the Indians, cutting the timber, building your way starting to form.
So for nine generations our family has been in the
same area, a little area of Freeport and tipe Canoe
in the western side of Harrison County. People, thank you,
thank you. We think that the legacy of the pioneer
(06:17):
carries on, but more importantly it's that ownership, going back
to our Scottish roots and protecting the land and protecting
what's yours and what you've fought for. Every rock that
you've moved off the field or every tree that was planted.
You want to protect those rights and not let people
come in here and take it for granted. One of
(06:38):
the stories we remember in twenty eleven was taff drilling TAFT.
We had hats and t shirts that said taff drilling,
and so people were complaining about all the out of
state people coming into the area. Well, we had to
remind them that this isn't Texas and thea FT. You
(07:00):
can take it for granted what that stands for, with
the understanding we want you here, but understand we know
a little bit about oil and gas, and we've been
doing oil and gas a lot longer than you Texans have.
So we wanted to make sure we weren't being taken
advantage of. But to do that you had to educate
people and remind them of their roots why you live
(07:22):
here in the Ohio Valley. And then that came back
to the to getting the people who were coming here
to understand the values of people that live here. That
hard working pioneer spirit getting up every morning, taking your
lunch box or your lunch pail to work with you
having dirt underneath your fingernails by the time the day
(07:42):
was done, and needing to shower when you got off work,
not before you went. You know, that type of mentality.
But at the same time, community oriented family and friends
that if something happened to a neighbor down the road,
you'd be the first one there, whether it was bacon, cookies,
form or helping rebuild a house somebody gets sick. In
(08:03):
the neighborhoods or the communities of our region, we have
a fundraiser, we have a spaghetti dinner, or whatever it is.
That camaraderie and being like a family is all over
the High Valley, Western Pa, Eastern ohigh the Panhandle. We
all kind of have that similar desire because we were
(08:24):
a mixed group. Believe it or not, We're Italians, we're Scottish,
We're Irish, we're Czechs, and you know, you can go
on and on a lot of Polish families, but we've
all come together. One of the partners with me at
two point fifty Pioneer, which is one of the names
of our companies Polish family, tells the story his grandpa
(08:44):
Andy and my grandpa were great friends about a small
town in Belmont County actually have a establishment called Polish Club.
And back then in the coal miners, you had eight
separate ethnic groups going underground together working at the mine.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
But when they came back up they all went their
separate ways. They had their separate bars, their separate restaurants.
And it's still that way in fair Point, you know,
arout nine. So when you think a fair Point, you see, well,
what's all these bars for? Well, there used to be
eight or nine of them. But people work together and
back then, and this is still the same mentality today
of the High Valley, the miners, coal miners, which this
(09:27):
area is heavily, heavily thankful to all the coal miners.
They would eat their dessert first. And I asked Andy Millersik,
why would you do that? Why would you He said,
because you wanted to have the best in your lunch
pail first, because you may not ever get another taste
of foods. You might not come out of the mine,
you know. So people people went to work knowing they
(09:49):
were risking their life every day. And sometimes that mentality
is hard to find in certain parts of the of
the country. Not in the High Valley. People take every
day as a blessing. We're not taking anything for granted. Here.
We work our tails off, we get what we work for,
and we expect that from other people. So I guess
(10:12):
that's that's the Ohio Valley in a nutshell, as far
as I'm.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Concerned, I drive through a Fairpoint almost every day. I
never knew that that's a that's a really nice little
nugget of information.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
That stop at the park. Uh it's actually named after
Okay Grandpa. Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm mallersti park. Wow the
but there. You know, there's many stories like that for
generations after generations of immigrants that have come into this
country and have settled and through hard work, became part
of the community. Wow.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
What challenges have you faced, say the last I don't
know they ten years. What have you seen has been
a huge challenge? And and and again I say all
your jobs here.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I would think the biggest challenge is the gallibility of
the people that live here. We trust people, Appalachia people,
High Valley people feel if you look me in the
eye and shake my hand, you're telling me the truth.
People take advantage of that. Yeah, they do.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
They can get you in trouble sometimes.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, And so I think that's been the biggest challenge
is trying to educate people to say, listen, just because
they say I'm here to help you doesn't mean that
they are. And so that's part of our educational programs.
I at one time, I think our website said one
hundred and twenty thousand acres represented over six hundred public
(11:47):
meetings that we've done, and back then we were doing
three a week, trying to get ahead of what people
were calling the oil and gas boom, just so landowners
understood there were some value beneath their feet, like the
coal that got mine. A lot of that money left
the Ohigh Valley, a lot of that money went into Pittsburgh,
(12:08):
a lot of that money went to New York. We
don't want that to happen to oil on gas, and
thankfully we've had since we've been involved. I think you
probably go to twenty ten, so let's say, fourteen years,
over ninety five billion dollars has been invested in the
owned gas business, just the oiled gas business. People were
(12:28):
talking about how important that the Intel plant is coming
in Intel and Google coming to mid Ohio, which is just,
you know, not too far from here out thirty six
and sixteen. But that's the twenty five billion dollar investment.
We've invested four times that. And if you look at
(12:50):
at the tax that's coming back into the communities, I've
got some figures here that I wrote down so I
wouldn't miss out on it. But just tax base alone
in twenty twenty one, so just we'll just take one
year out, fifty seven point six million dollars in taxes
(13:11):
were paid to seven counties in eastern Ohio in oil
and gas tax really one year over the time, and
we're going to call it a ten year period twenty
fourteen to twenty twenty four estimated at three hundred and
sixty four million in what we call ad valorum taxes.
(13:34):
When these guys were coming in, a lot of people
didn't know what ad vlorum was. Mike County, your county,
Harrison County was struggling to pay their bills, struggling to
keep the lights on. We are now so blessed in
Harrison County. Yeah, no doubt, thanks to oil and gas.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
You know, I was going to make it a point
to ask you about that, the kind of I don't
have prosperity is the word, but you know, the opportunities
it's unlocked for small areas such as Harrison County and
at what happens, you know, on the hill with the
school and everything like that. It's just incredible and if
you could, if you have, you obviously know way more
about this than we do, but like detail that process.
(14:12):
You know that you know you've mentioned oil and gas
and the investment and you know it's a good thing
for a community and all these millions of dollars and everything,
but kind of detail how that actually works and what
goes into all that.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So if you're if you're a speculator of minerals, first
of all, you have to understand is there an actual
reserve of minerals beneath the ground? So geological studies, the
geological studies dates back to nineteen oh three. I think
Ohio's had a very good track record of geological research
(14:49):
because of our coal But over time technology has gotten
so much better where we can do a three D
seismic and we can tell exactly what's underneath us. So
hydrocarbon wise, I think we estimated two hundred and fourteen
trillion million cubic feet of natural gas available. Wow, so
is that worth going after? Yes? So how do we
(15:11):
do that? Well, you first have to lease the land,
so you have to engage the landowner in some cases
may not be the mineral owner because in a core area.
Some of that's got severed away from the land. So
you go to the county courthouses. Back when it started,
most of our counties were not online. You would have
(15:33):
to research book after book, page after page. I remember
doing research in twenty ten, eleven, and twelve in Tyler County,
West Virginia, where we were getting charged one dollar per
iPhone photo of their old books because we were handling
their books and touching the pages. We couldn't copy them,
(15:55):
couldn't take the pages out, so you had to take
an iPhone picture a dollar a page. Wow. So we
were running about four hundred dollars day rate for three
landmen working at courthouse. Now it's one of the highest
grossing counties in the state of West Virginia thanks to
oil and gas and so the technology with the land
search first, that's how it start. Once you've search that,
(16:17):
you find who the mineral owner is, you go and
offer them, solicit them for a lease. And they lowballed
a lot of people. I remember, like it was yesterday
in Hopedale at the fire hall, the county Farm Bureau
from Jefferson and Harrison got together because back then the
farm Bureau by golly If you were a landowner. You
(16:39):
trusted what the farm bureer said. So they had this
meeting and they had a guy by name Arnold, who
was their oil and gas policy leader, and a couple
odn R guys, and they were talking to the crowd about, hey,
this is something's happening here. They're offering two hundred and
fifty dollars an acre to lease land. You know, you
(16:59):
better be prepared for this. So we're setting in a
crowd just like everybody else. And it was an overflow crowd,
and they had passed out index cards to put questions on,
and so one question was asked. Well said, okay, I've
got this offer from Chesapeake for two hundred and fifty
dollars an acre and fifteen percent. Royalty says, this is
(17:21):
a good deal. So Dale Arnold said two hundred and fifty.
He said how many years is that? The guy said
was a five year lease. He said, that's fifty bucks
an acre per year. He said, I would sign that
lease tomorrow. Just make sure you get a free gas
clause and get it up to three hundred thousand MCFs.
So I stood up and hollered, you people have no
(17:43):
clue what you're talking about no clue.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
So that's where the education that yous all which.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
So we went into trimpled ten times mode to educate
people because even the people running the meetings had no clue.
So there was when I said, listen, this is wrong,
well Jim, that Marcellus shale doesn't come too far across
the Ohio River. In fact, we think it peters out
(18:11):
right here about the Steubenville hope Dale line, you know,
Jefferson Harrison line. I said, isn't the Marcellus, this is
the Utica point pleasant, it's a different formation. And one
of the engineers from the O D n R said,
what's the Utica? So then we knew here's farm Bureau
(18:35):
that the Landowner's Trust telling people that that was a
good idea. So it's like, this isn't in close because
by then we had already been signing. In Pennsylvania, Wyoming County,
we had a sixty five hundred and eight or twenty
percent deal with a landowner group, so we knew the
education needed to come, and we've been fighting that battle
(18:55):
ever since. But people got to sign a lease. So
that getting back to your question, once the lease is signed,
if you get enough acreage you can put a drilling
unit together. In twenty eleven and twelve, we were drilling
six hundred and forty acre units eight wells with lateral
length of about forty five hundred feet. Today we're drilling
(19:17):
four mile laterals, really twenty thousand foot laterals, and so
you have a extremely low footprint. But you can drill
out twelve hundred acres from one pad in one direction
with four wells, and most of these pads are going
both directions northwest southeast. But it all starts with a lease.
(19:39):
You can't drill, you can't produce minerals, you can't mind coal,
you can't mind stone without a document a lease. A
lease is a real estate document between a lease and
less ore. That's where we come in as a land brokerage,
home land real estate, where we focus on that what
(20:00):
moms started back in the sixties fighting for coal rights
and contracts, understanding what you really own, what the value
beneath your feet is not just your house value, your
land value, but your mineral value. So it was a
perfect fit for us, and sixteen years later, we're still
(20:21):
doing it.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And that's where I think it's interesting because you're obviously
a proponent of energy and all this, you know, the
good things that it can bring to a community and
especially what it's done for the Ohio value. But you're
also on the side of the people.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Ohays, which is very rare.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I like how you kind of
you put yourself on both sides of this because you
want the good that comes with the with the energy, right,
you also want you don't want the people to get
ripped off. You mentioned them getting low bald, and it's
just you know, so it's a matter of education. I guess.
You know, people are getting low bald and they don't
know what is the value beneath them, and that's where
(20:53):
you come in and you tell them, you know, this
is actually worth a lot more. If we could get
some negotiating power here, you know, then it could be
a really good deal for both sides.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah. So from that taking that, we started forming landowner groups.
There's power in numbers. We had a landowner group in
Kreshocked in a Muskingham County in twenty fourteen that was
forty three thousand acres, large group to handle. I can
remember the having big meetings that I think it's called
try Valley, the big high school in Dresden, and at
(21:24):
that time, Launa Burgers was still a big deal, and
I said to the public meeting, this will be bigger
than anything Launaburger's ever thought about doing. And people thought
I was nuts. But the bottom line is educating the people.
And that's the same thing in my mind. Anyway, we
named one of our companies two fifty Pioneer. That's the
(21:45):
same thing our ancestors did when they came through this
area and found this beautiful valley that they fought to
get here on. We're going to protect it and we
don't need outsiders. Back then, the Indians were probably saying,
who are these pioneers, you know, and they're kicking us
out of our land. Well, we fought, you know, fought
for it ever since, so why would we let other
(22:08):
people come in. But that being said, we want them
here because I cannot extract those minerals without the technology
and the operators who have the technology to get it
out of ground, to get the oil and gas and
produce it. So it's a working relationship, but at the
same time stand in our ground and makeing sure that
(22:30):
everybody's treated fairly. And then at the same time, we
put in protections for the environment, you know, surface use,
water use, you know, what rights do we have. That
comes back to the real estate. What's the value of
my house if I'm going to sell it. We do
the valuations on the minerals.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Okay, So talk to me about how the taxes that
you mentioned, how that gets invested or imburst into the community.
That comes from a So I'm guessing that you know,
a company comes in and wants to drill or wants
to you know, extract whatever mineral and from that, they
have to pay a tax to do that. That goes
then to the surrounding.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
In some counties. I'm working in Tuscarross County right now.
Some counties do not have an ADVALRM tax. I'm saying
this and people in Tusk County may get mad sometimes,
but it's a great tax base. You you tax it
based on the value of the mineral being produced. So
(23:28):
oil and gas companies have to pay for transportation. So
there's because there's got to be pipeline that moves the gas.
The pipeline companies pay a tax.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
It's not a heavy tax by no means, because the
amount of capital that's generated but what's it doing. It's
building roads, it's building school buildings, it's it's bringing back trails, parks, recreation.
We had a company here the other day that donated
to a local four H fund helped them build a
(24:00):
new horse barn on their fairgrounds. Firefighters, police, all first
responders have benefited from it from donations and or training.
We just had a fire safety training facility put in
a small town of Antrim, Guernsey County Volunteer Fire Department
got helped out by one gas. Roads being paved and
(24:21):
never were paved before, new callverts, new bridges. Probably the
biggest thing we overlook is the upgrade of the electrical grid.
AP has upgraded right away after right away, power station
after power station, because the ultimate use for all of
(24:42):
these hydrocarbons that were producing is to generate electricity. You know,
we've got a I guess we called a mantra that
we promote. It's called we innovate not eliminate. It's on
all of our business cards and people ask me, well,
what does that mean we innovate and eliminate. Well, we
don't want to get rid of coal and power generation,
(25:07):
but we can innovate. We can find new uses for coal,
and we can replace those coal fired plants with natural
gas fired plants. But the reason Intel's here is because
of AI and artificial intelligence, which there's no greater demand
(25:27):
on the grid than AI for electricity. So what do
you need? You need data centers, Data centers need electricity.
How are we going to generate it? So all these
hydrocarbons have a purpose and the cheapest Because I want
to go back to some stats. When I started this,
we were at two bcfs a day, That's what we
(25:48):
produced in the Appalation basin. Today, sixteen years later, we're
producing thirty eight bcfs. The demand when it was at
two Innapalasia was eighteen bcfs, so we needed to drill
to meet our demand. We soared past that in twenty fourteen,
just flew by it. I can remember being at a
(26:11):
rally at a high university Eastern which with now President
Joe Biden, he was running in the primary, and we
were talking about coal and how Waynel Hayes, who was
Congressman of the sixth Congressional District Belmont County. Waynel Hayes
back in the seventies had promoted as is the chairman
of the Ways and Means Committee, Joe Biden had said,
(26:34):
you know, we got to have an alternative. We got
to find a better use for coal, but we also
natural gas is that bridge fuel and then seven was
talking about that being the bridge fuel. Well, today it
is the bridge. But at the same time technology has
got so far hydrogen has come about as the bridge
full with natural gas. And if you guys aren't aware
(26:56):
of it, one of the best and biggest projects in
our area that's came from all of this development is
the ARCH too, the Appalachia Regional Clean Hydrogen Hub. So
ARCH two is going to be maybe sixteen, maybe twenty
separate projects, multi state that has come from all of
(27:21):
this land leasing, all the development. Because at thirty eight bcfs,
we now have an oversupply. When you have an oversupply,
the price goes down. We have the cheapest natural gas
in the world. So when doy you had asked me,
what we may talk about is why would people come here?
(27:41):
Because it's the cheapest natural gas in the world. You
can build your manufacturing center right on top of the
raw materials that you need to build it. So during
let's say it sadly, during COVID, we realized as a country,
I don't manufacture things anymore. We're too dependent on the
(28:04):
shipping lanes and foreign countries to give us what we want.
The computers, the microphones that we're talking into now come
from a very simple source, coal and natural resources. China's
been buying our coal for years. What do they benefit
on rare earth elements? Ore ees creating the chips for
(28:26):
our computers ships. Yes, all right, So when you start
talking about that, now, all of a sudden, you're realizing,
if I'm going to build, I'm going to build in
the Ohio Valley. I want to build where the raw
materials are. So an organization started down to Marietta called
Shale Crescent. If you haven't talked to the Shale Crescent guys,
you got to. They're one of the best promoters of
(28:47):
the Ohio Valley and our hydrocarbons. Well. Well, they've done
studies to say that if this was a state, if
Western Pa, Eastern Ohio Panhandle, the Ohio Valley, if we
were a state or a country, we would be the
third largest country producing of oil and gas, only behind
(29:09):
Russia and the rest of the United States combined. Wow,
that's how big this is excuse me that being said,
you should come here to start your business exactly, you
should build here. You've got the work ethic of the pioneers,
You've got the mentality of community. We haven't even started
(29:30):
to talk about the beauty of the high Valley, the rivers.
Now you think about coming across the Alleghenies, coming from
the east head and west. Nobody had been here before,
and the huge timber and you come to this mass
of Ohio River, one of the best arteries in the
United States of America. Yeah, we fought wars over it. Yes,
(29:52):
all right, the Louisiana purchase. Think back to eighteen oh
three in Louisiana. Well, you can't get to the New
Orleans without the Ohio River, all right, you can't ship goods.
So I think it was twenty nineteen at a meeting
up at Ogilby we called it access to Capital where
we talked about the midd Ohio Valley and the amount
(30:12):
of shipping that's on the Ohio Valley number one port
midd Ohio Valley in the country as far as moving goods,
and so you start looking from the hook at Pitts
above Pittsburgh all the way down to Ironton. We could
go clean to Louisville, but how much commerce is on
the river. And so there was a study done by
(30:35):
a national company that said, where do you see the
growth in the United States? Well, the Ohigh Valley they used, Weirton,
they used Wheeling as the center, talking about one hundred
thousand jobs to be created. We're forecasting that now to
two hundred thousand jobs. Wow, all right, you guys are
seeing it here and Wheeling. And how much revitalization's going
(30:58):
on the street scapes project. You know, all the money
that's being invested now there there was a huge infrastructure
bill federally that is benefiting all of us. All right,
that's coming back into the communities. We saw a little
bit of that from the old gas guys that started.
We talked about Harrison County benefiting. All the counties have benefited, Belmont, Monroe,
(31:23):
the data centers that are going in down at the
old Ormet plant. Just there's so many great things going on.
But the reason to settle here, I'm going to go
straight to it.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Wait, we'd like to we'd like to stop your on.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
For the listeners.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
We're about out of time for this first episode. But
stay tuned. There will be a part too. Jim Millison's
got a ton left to say. I can see it
in his eyes. He's got so much to tell us.
If you want anything you'd like to hear us talk about,
or anybody you'd like.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
To hear come on.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
You can reach us at OUI Podcast at Ohio dot edu.
This has been Jim Millison and Wendy Anderson. I'm Drake Watson.
Thank you for listening. No but No
Speaker 3 (32:04):
No, the no FO
Good morning, Welcome back to Community Connections and Commerce. It's
cold in this room, probably cold outside as well. I'm
Drake Watson, along with Wendy Anderson as always in our
special guest this morning, Jim Millison. Jim, we appreciate you
coming on this morning and taking the time out of
your day to come talk to us. I know there's
a lot better things you could be doing right now,
but we are grateful for your time this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Welcome Jim. We really appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Thanks Wendy.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
So, I've got a ton of notes here that I've
written down just in the short time that we've spoken
before coming on here, and you've got a lot of
titles and a lot of things that you're involved in.
I guess I'll jump in first with your kind of
energy background and kind of what your story is. I mean,
asident of the Ohio Valley Energy Association, you do a
ton of things with oil and gas. You mentioned two
and fifty Pioneer as well. Just kind of dive in
(01:07):
if you could, on all the things that you do
and kind of how you got to where you are.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, the energy business has always been part of the
High Valley, whether it was gas, oil, coal, or well say,
natural resources in general. But I got my start in
two thousand and four Marietta College. My youngest son decided
to major in patrolling engineering and came home for Thanksgiving
(01:33):
and talked to my dad about horizontal drilling. And I
leaned over to my wife and I said, what the
heck are we paying thirty eight thousand dollars a year
for him to go to Marietta. He must not be
going to classes. And she said why, I said, because
he's talking about drilling laterally and you don't drill well laterally.
And I said, I don't think he's going to classes. Well,
(01:54):
little did I know. So that winter I went down
and met doctor Chase, who was the head of the
Patrolling Engineering department. And from that day forward, I've been
involved in oil and gas. And my son is left
Marietta College when he graduated and has been working for
Chevron ever since in the Houston office. And he and
(02:17):
I together decided that energy was going to be a
long time future in Ohio. So my older brother in
seven worked for Governor Strickland at the O D and
R as the assistant director for Department natural resources. So
we started getting ahead of what then was the Marcellus
(02:38):
and what are we going to do in Ohio? So
we started researching Point Pleasant and the Utica shale, created
maps on the dry gas, the wet gas, the heavy liquids,
and the oil. Window took those maps in O seven
and traveled to Oklahoma, Texas, Colorado, Louisiana and went to
(03:02):
every conference we could possibly go to to promote what
we called them the Utica Point Pleasant Shale, and people
thought we were crazy. By twenty ten, we'd got the
right people in and Aubrey McClendon at that time, CEO
of Chesapeake and I had a long sit down and
he basically said, we're trying to hurry up and lease
(03:24):
as much ground as we possibly can before you dumb
hillbillies wake up. And that struck a chord, struck a
chord hard that in my mother. She lived on a
farm in Caddis Harrison County, and her family sold their
coal rights, and never in my granddad's wildest dreams would
(03:47):
he had dreamed that there was going to be a
high wall and they would mine right up to the milkhouse.
But they did, and that made my mom get into
the real estate business, so she would understand land and
contracts and minerals, which that's why I got in the
real estate business. But more importantly, we're not going to
let this happen to landowners. More importantly, mineral owners of
(04:08):
the Ohigh Valley get to Educating people was the thing
we got to do. So, just like I got educated
at Marietta through my son, we started holding public meetings
all over the Ohigh Valley, went to West Virginia, went
to PA, went to Northeast PA where the Marcellus had
(04:28):
been going on since O four. Talk to landowners, talk
to farmers, said what would you do different today if
you would known then what you know now? So we
started doing education and now I've made it my life's
work since seven to educate people. And that's how we
really got started in the energy business.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Wow, that's a great story.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Okay, since then everything's just got a ruled.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah, all right, So you are invested in the community
and everything that I had written down that you do.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Why?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
What's your why?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I suppose the why is my grandkids, the environment, the land.
Being a real estate brokerage owner. Our companies named Homeland
and we're going to protect the homeland. My family came
from Scotland in sixteen fifty two on a prisoner ship,
(05:31):
believe it or not, because they wouldn't bow to the
king and they wanted to be free. They didn't want
to be controlled by a dictator or king, so they
got shipped to the Americas in sixteen fifty two. By
seventeen ninety they had found their way through the Appalachian
Mountains and across the river. True pioneers. So that kind
(05:55):
of plays into our companies. Hard work, dedication, fighting off
the Indians, cutting the timber, building your way starting to form.
So for nine generations our family has been in the
same area, a little area of Freeport and tipe Canoe
in the western side of Harrison County. People, thank you,
thank you. We think that the legacy of the pioneer
(06:17):
carries on, but more importantly it's that ownership, going back
to our Scottish roots and protecting the land and protecting
what's yours and what you've fought for. Every rock that
you've moved off the field or every tree that was planted.
You want to protect those rights and not let people
come in here and take it for granted. One of
(06:38):
the stories we remember in twenty eleven was taff drilling TAFT.
We had hats and t shirts that said taff drilling,
and so people were complaining about all the out of
state people coming into the area. Well, we had to
remind them that this isn't Texas and thea FT. You
(07:00):
can take it for granted what that stands for, with
the understanding we want you here, but understand we know
a little bit about oil and gas, and we've been
doing oil and gas a lot longer than you Texans have.
So we wanted to make sure we weren't being taken
advantage of. But to do that you had to educate
people and remind them of their roots why you live
(07:22):
here in the Ohio Valley. And then that came back
to the to getting the people who were coming here
to understand the values of people that live here. That
hard working pioneer spirit getting up every morning, taking your
lunch box or your lunch pail to work with you
having dirt underneath your fingernails by the time the day
(07:42):
was done, and needing to shower when you got off work,
not before you went. You know, that type of mentality.
But at the same time, community oriented family and friends
that if something happened to a neighbor down the road,
you'd be the first one there, whether it was bacon, cookies,
form or helping rebuild a house somebody gets sick. In
(08:03):
the neighborhoods or the communities of our region, we have
a fundraiser, we have a spaghetti dinner, or whatever it is.
That camaraderie and being like a family is all over
the High Valley, Western Pa, Eastern ohigh the Panhandle. We
all kind of have that similar desire because we were
(08:24):
a mixed group. Believe it or not, We're Italians, we're Scottish,
We're Irish, we're Czechs, and you know, you can go
on and on a lot of Polish families, but we've
all come together. One of the partners with me at
two point fifty Pioneer, which is one of the names
of our companies Polish family, tells the story his grandpa
(08:44):
Andy and my grandpa were great friends about a small
town in Belmont County actually have a establishment called Polish Club.
And back then in the coal miners, you had eight
separate ethnic groups going underground together working at the mine.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
But when they came back up they all went their
separate ways. They had their separate bars, their separate restaurants.
And it's still that way in fair Point, you know,
arout nine. So when you think a fair Point, you see, well,
what's all these bars for? Well, there used to be
eight or nine of them. But people work together and
back then, and this is still the same mentality today
of the High Valley, the miners, coal miners, which this
(09:27):
area is heavily, heavily thankful to all the coal miners.
They would eat their dessert first. And I asked Andy Millersik,
why would you do that? Why would you He said,
because you wanted to have the best in your lunch
pail first, because you may not ever get another taste
of foods. You might not come out of the mine,
you know. So people people went to work knowing they
(09:49):
were risking their life every day. And sometimes that mentality
is hard to find in certain parts of the of
the country. Not in the High Valley. People take every
day as a blessing. We're not taking anything for granted. Here.
We work our tails off, we get what we work for,
and we expect that from other people. So I guess
(10:12):
that's that's the Ohio Valley in a nutshell, as far
as I'm.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Concerned, I drive through a Fairpoint almost every day. I
never knew that that's a that's a really nice little
nugget of information.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
That stop at the park. Uh it's actually named after
Okay Grandpa. Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm mallersti park. Wow the
but there. You know, there's many stories like that for
generations after generations of immigrants that have come into this
country and have settled and through hard work, became part
of the community. Wow.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
What challenges have you faced, say the last I don't
know they ten years. What have you seen has been
a huge challenge? And and and again I say all
your jobs here.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I would think the biggest challenge is the gallibility of
the people that live here. We trust people, Appalachia people,
High Valley people feel if you look me in the
eye and shake my hand, you're telling me the truth.
People take advantage of that. Yeah, they do.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
They can get you in trouble sometimes.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, And so I think that's been the biggest challenge
is trying to educate people to say, listen, just because
they say I'm here to help you doesn't mean that
they are. And so that's part of our educational programs.
I at one time, I think our website said one
hundred and twenty thousand acres represented over six hundred public
(11:47):
meetings that we've done, and back then we were doing
three a week, trying to get ahead of what people
were calling the oil and gas boom, just so landowners
understood there were some value beneath their feet, like the
coal that got mine. A lot of that money left
the Ohigh Valley, a lot of that money went into Pittsburgh,
(12:08):
a lot of that money went to New York. We
don't want that to happen to oil on gas, and
thankfully we've had since we've been involved. I think you
probably go to twenty ten, so let's say, fourteen years,
over ninety five billion dollars has been invested in the
owned gas business, just the oiled gas business. People were
(12:28):
talking about how important that the Intel plant is coming
in Intel and Google coming to mid Ohio, which is just,
you know, not too far from here out thirty six
and sixteen. But that's the twenty five billion dollar investment.
We've invested four times that. And if you look at
(12:50):
at the tax that's coming back into the communities, I've
got some figures here that I wrote down so I
wouldn't miss out on it. But just tax base alone
in twenty twenty one, so just we'll just take one
year out, fifty seven point six million dollars in taxes
(13:11):
were paid to seven counties in eastern Ohio in oil
and gas tax really one year over the time, and
we're going to call it a ten year period twenty
fourteen to twenty twenty four estimated at three hundred and
sixty four million in what we call ad valorum taxes.
(13:34):
When these guys were coming in, a lot of people
didn't know what ad vlorum was. Mike County, your county,
Harrison County was struggling to pay their bills, struggling to
keep the lights on. We are now so blessed in
Harrison County. Yeah, no doubt, thanks to oil and gas.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
You know, I was going to make it a point
to ask you about that, the kind of I don't
have prosperity is the word, but you know, the opportunities
it's unlocked for small areas such as Harrison County and
at what happens, you know, on the hill with the
school and everything like that. It's just incredible and if
you could, if you have, you obviously know way more
about this than we do, but like detail that process.
(14:12):
You know that you know you've mentioned oil and gas
and the investment and you know it's a good thing
for a community and all these millions of dollars and everything,
but kind of detail how that actually works and what
goes into all that.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So if you're if you're a speculator of minerals, first
of all, you have to understand is there an actual
reserve of minerals beneath the ground? So geological studies, the
geological studies dates back to nineteen oh three. I think
Ohio's had a very good track record of geological research
(14:49):
because of our coal But over time technology has gotten
so much better where we can do a three D
seismic and we can tell exactly what's underneath us. So
hydrocarbon wise, I think we estimated two hundred and fourteen
trillion million cubic feet of natural gas available. Wow, so
is that worth going after? Yes? So how do we
(15:11):
do that? Well, you first have to lease the land,
so you have to engage the landowner in some cases
may not be the mineral owner because in a core area.
Some of that's got severed away from the land. So
you go to the county courthouses. Back when it started,
most of our counties were not online. You would have
(15:33):
to research book after book, page after page. I remember
doing research in twenty ten, eleven, and twelve in Tyler County,
West Virginia, where we were getting charged one dollar per
iPhone photo of their old books because we were handling
their books and touching the pages. We couldn't copy them,
(15:55):
couldn't take the pages out, so you had to take
an iPhone picture a dollar a page. Wow. So we
were running about four hundred dollars day rate for three
landmen working at courthouse. Now it's one of the highest
grossing counties in the state of West Virginia thanks to
oil and gas and so the technology with the land
search first, that's how it start. Once you've search that,
(16:17):
you find who the mineral owner is, you go and
offer them, solicit them for a lease. And they lowballed
a lot of people. I remember, like it was yesterday
in Hopedale at the fire hall, the county Farm Bureau
from Jefferson and Harrison got together because back then the
farm Bureau by golly If you were a landowner. You
(16:39):
trusted what the farm bureer said. So they had this
meeting and they had a guy by name Arnold, who
was their oil and gas policy leader, and a couple
odn R guys, and they were talking to the crowd about, hey,
this is something's happening here. They're offering two hundred and
fifty dollars an acre to lease land. You know, you
(16:59):
better be prepared for this. So we're setting in a
crowd just like everybody else. And it was an overflow crowd,
and they had passed out index cards to put questions on,
and so one question was asked. Well said, okay, I've
got this offer from Chesapeake for two hundred and fifty
dollars an acre and fifteen percent. Royalty says, this is
(17:21):
a good deal. So Dale Arnold said two hundred and fifty.
He said how many years is that? The guy said
was a five year lease. He said, that's fifty bucks
an acre per year. He said, I would sign that
lease tomorrow. Just make sure you get a free gas
clause and get it up to three hundred thousand MCFs.
So I stood up and hollered, you people have no
(17:43):
clue what you're talking about no clue.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
So that's where the education that yous all which.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
So we went into trimpled ten times mode to educate
people because even the people running the meetings had no clue.
So there was when I said, listen, this is wrong,
well Jim, that Marcellus shale doesn't come too far across
the Ohio River. In fact, we think it peters out
(18:11):
right here about the Steubenville hope Dale line, you know,
Jefferson Harrison line. I said, isn't the Marcellus, this is
the Utica point pleasant, it's a different formation. And one
of the engineers from the O D n R said,
what's the Utica? So then we knew here's farm Bureau
(18:35):
that the Landowner's Trust telling people that that was a
good idea. So it's like, this isn't in close because
by then we had already been signing. In Pennsylvania, Wyoming County,
we had a sixty five hundred and eight or twenty
percent deal with a landowner group, so we knew the
education needed to come, and we've been fighting that battle
(18:55):
ever since. But people got to sign a lease. So
that getting back to your question, once the lease is signed,
if you get enough acreage you can put a drilling
unit together. In twenty eleven and twelve, we were drilling
six hundred and forty acre units eight wells with lateral
length of about forty five hundred feet. Today we're drilling
(19:17):
four mile laterals, really twenty thousand foot laterals, and so
you have a extremely low footprint. But you can drill
out twelve hundred acres from one pad in one direction
with four wells, and most of these pads are going
both directions northwest southeast. But it all starts with a lease.
(19:39):
You can't drill, you can't produce minerals, you can't mind coal,
you can't mind stone without a document a lease. A
lease is a real estate document between a lease and
less ore. That's where we come in as a land brokerage,
home land real estate, where we focus on that what
(20:00):
moms started back in the sixties fighting for coal rights
and contracts, understanding what you really own, what the value
beneath your feet is not just your house value, your
land value, but your mineral value. So it was a
perfect fit for us, and sixteen years later, we're still
(20:21):
doing it.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And that's where I think it's interesting because you're obviously
a proponent of energy and all this, you know, the
good things that it can bring to a community and
especially what it's done for the Ohio value. But you're
also on the side of the people.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Ohays, which is very rare.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I like how you kind of
you put yourself on both sides of this because you
want the good that comes with the with the energy, right,
you also want you don't want the people to get
ripped off. You mentioned them getting low bald, and it's
just you know, so it's a matter of education. I guess.
You know, people are getting low bald and they don't
know what is the value beneath them, and that's where
(20:53):
you come in and you tell them, you know, this
is actually worth a lot more. If we could get
some negotiating power here, you know, then it could be
a really good deal for both sides.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah. So from that taking that, we started forming landowner groups.
There's power in numbers. We had a landowner group in
Kreshocked in a Muskingham County in twenty fourteen that was
forty three thousand acres, large group to handle. I can
remember the having big meetings that I think it's called
try Valley, the big high school in Dresden, and at
(21:24):
that time, Launa Burgers was still a big deal, and
I said to the public meeting, this will be bigger
than anything Launaburger's ever thought about doing. And people thought
I was nuts. But the bottom line is educating the people.
And that's the same thing in my mind. Anyway, we
named one of our companies two fifty Pioneer. That's the
(21:45):
same thing our ancestors did when they came through this
area and found this beautiful valley that they fought to
get here on. We're going to protect it and we
don't need outsiders. Back then, the Indians were probably saying,
who are these pioneers, you know, and they're kicking us
out of our land. Well, we fought, you know, fought
for it ever since, so why would we let other
(22:08):
people come in. But that being said, we want them
here because I cannot extract those minerals without the technology
and the operators who have the technology to get it
out of ground, to get the oil and gas and
produce it. So it's a working relationship, but at the
same time stand in our ground and makeing sure that
(22:30):
everybody's treated fairly. And then at the same time, we
put in protections for the environment, you know, surface use,
water use, you know, what rights do we have. That
comes back to the real estate. What's the value of
my house if I'm going to sell it. We do
the valuations on the minerals.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Okay, So talk to me about how the taxes that
you mentioned, how that gets invested or imburst into the community.
That comes from a So I'm guessing that you know,
a company comes in and wants to drill or wants
to you know, extract whatever mineral and from that, they
have to pay a tax to do that. That goes
then to the surrounding.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
In some counties. I'm working in Tuscarross County right now.
Some counties do not have an ADVALRM tax. I'm saying
this and people in Tusk County may get mad sometimes,
but it's a great tax base. You you tax it
based on the value of the mineral being produced. So
(23:28):
oil and gas companies have to pay for transportation. So
there's because there's got to be pipeline that moves the gas.
The pipeline companies pay a tax.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
It's not a heavy tax by no means, because the
amount of capital that's generated but what's it doing. It's
building roads, it's building school buildings, it's it's bringing back trails, parks, recreation.
We had a company here the other day that donated
to a local four H fund helped them build a
(24:00):
new horse barn on their fairgrounds. Firefighters, police, all first
responders have benefited from it from donations and or training.
We just had a fire safety training facility put in
a small town of Antrim, Guernsey County Volunteer Fire Department
got helped out by one gas. Roads being paved and
(24:21):
never were paved before, new callverts, new bridges. Probably the
biggest thing we overlook is the upgrade of the electrical grid.
AP has upgraded right away after right away, power station
after power station, because the ultimate use for all of
(24:42):
these hydrocarbons that were producing is to generate electricity. You know,
we've got a I guess we called a mantra that
we promote. It's called we innovate not eliminate. It's on
all of our business cards and people ask me, well,
what does that mean we innovate and eliminate. Well, we
don't want to get rid of coal and power generation,
(25:07):
but we can innovate. We can find new uses for coal,
and we can replace those coal fired plants with natural
gas fired plants. But the reason Intel's here is because
of AI and artificial intelligence, which there's no greater demand
(25:27):
on the grid than AI for electricity. So what do
you need? You need data centers, Data centers need electricity.
How are we going to generate it? So all these
hydrocarbons have a purpose and the cheapest Because I want
to go back to some stats. When I started this,
we were at two bcfs a day, That's what we
(25:48):
produced in the Appalation basin. Today, sixteen years later, we're
producing thirty eight bcfs. The demand when it was at
two Innapalasia was eighteen bcfs, so we needed to drill
to meet our demand. We soared past that in twenty fourteen,
just flew by it. I can remember being at a
(26:11):
rally at a high university Eastern which with now President
Joe Biden, he was running in the primary, and we
were talking about coal and how Waynel Hayes, who was
Congressman of the sixth Congressional District Belmont County. Waynel Hayes
back in the seventies had promoted as is the chairman
of the Ways and Means Committee, Joe Biden had said,
(26:34):
you know, we got to have an alternative. We got
to find a better use for coal, but we also
natural gas is that bridge fuel and then seven was
talking about that being the bridge fuel. Well, today it
is the bridge. But at the same time technology has
got so far hydrogen has come about as the bridge
full with natural gas. And if you guys aren't aware
(26:56):
of it, one of the best and biggest projects in
our area that's came from all of this development is
the ARCH too, the Appalachia Regional Clean Hydrogen Hub. So
ARCH two is going to be maybe sixteen, maybe twenty
separate projects, multi state that has come from all of
(27:21):
this land leasing, all the development. Because at thirty eight bcfs,
we now have an oversupply. When you have an oversupply,
the price goes down. We have the cheapest natural gas
in the world. So when doy you had asked me,
what we may talk about is why would people come here?
(27:41):
Because it's the cheapest natural gas in the world. You
can build your manufacturing center right on top of the
raw materials that you need to build it. So during
let's say it sadly, during COVID, we realized as a country,
I don't manufacture things anymore. We're too dependent on the
(28:04):
shipping lanes and foreign countries to give us what we want.
The computers, the microphones that we're talking into now come
from a very simple source, coal and natural resources. China's
been buying our coal for years. What do they benefit
on rare earth elements? Ore ees creating the chips for
(28:26):
our computers ships. Yes, all right, So when you start
talking about that, now, all of a sudden, you're realizing,
if I'm going to build, I'm going to build in
the Ohio Valley. I want to build where the raw
materials are. So an organization started down to Marietta called
Shale Crescent. If you haven't talked to the Shale Crescent guys,
you got to. They're one of the best promoters of
(28:47):
the Ohio Valley and our hydrocarbons. Well. Well, they've done
studies to say that if this was a state, if
Western Pa, Eastern Ohio Panhandle, the Ohio Valley, if we
were a state or a country, we would be the
third largest country producing of oil and gas, only behind
(29:09):
Russia and the rest of the United States combined. Wow,
that's how big this is excuse me that being said,
you should come here to start your business exactly, you
should build here. You've got the work ethic of the pioneers,
You've got the mentality of community. We haven't even started
(29:30):
to talk about the beauty of the high Valley, the rivers.
Now you think about coming across the Alleghenies, coming from
the east head and west. Nobody had been here before,
and the huge timber and you come to this mass
of Ohio River, one of the best arteries in the
United States of America. Yeah, we fought wars over it. Yes,
(29:52):
all right, the Louisiana purchase. Think back to eighteen oh
three in Louisiana. Well, you can't get to the New
Orleans without the Ohio River, all right, you can't ship goods.
So I think it was twenty nineteen at a meeting
up at Ogilby we called it access to Capital where
we talked about the midd Ohio Valley and the amount
(30:12):
of shipping that's on the Ohio Valley number one port
midd Ohio Valley in the country as far as moving goods,
and so you start looking from the hook at Pitts
above Pittsburgh all the way down to Ironton. We could
go clean to Louisville, but how much commerce is on
the river. And so there was a study done by
(30:35):
a national company that said, where do you see the
growth in the United States? Well, the Ohigh Valley they used, Weirton,
they used Wheeling as the center, talking about one hundred
thousand jobs to be created. We're forecasting that now to
two hundred thousand jobs. Wow, all right, you guys are
seeing it here and Wheeling. And how much revitalization's going
(30:58):
on the street scapes project. You know, all the money
that's being invested now there there was a huge infrastructure
bill federally that is benefiting all of us. All right,
that's coming back into the communities. We saw a little
bit of that from the old gas guys that started.
We talked about Harrison County benefiting. All the counties have benefited, Belmont, Monroe,
(31:23):
the data centers that are going in down at the
old Ormet plant. Just there's so many great things going on.
But the reason to settle here, I'm going to go
straight to it.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Wait, we'd like to we'd like to stop your on.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
For the listeners.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
We're about out of time for this first episode. But
stay tuned. There will be a part too. Jim Millison's
got a ton left to say. I can see it
in his eyes. He's got so much to tell us.
If you want anything you'd like to hear us talk about,
or anybody you'd like.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
To hear come on.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
You can reach us at OUI Podcast at Ohio dot edu.
This has been Jim Millison and Wendy Anderson. I'm Drake Watson.
Thank you for listening. No but No
Speaker 3 (32:04):
No, the no FO
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