Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello listeners and or welcome to you this special re
release series of the live talks that I have recorded
at crime Con UK. As we are so close to
the event in London now on the seventh and eighth
of June twenty twenty five, I thought it would be
a great opportunity to re upload the talks that I've
done previously at this event. For those of you that
(00:22):
have been tuning in for a while, these talks might
be familiar to you, but for those who are new
to the show, here is a taste of what you
can expect from crime Con UK across the weekend in London.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
We will also be.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
In Manchester in September and I hope to be doing
a talk at this event too. This year, I am
lucky enough to be on a panel with Laura Richards
no Less talking about coercive control and cult. You can
buy your tickets at crimecon dot co dot uk and
use the code cult cult at the checkout for ten
(00:54):
percent off your tickets. Patrons also receive a fifteen percent
discount code so you can contact me for directly. Crime
Con UK, sponsored by True Crime, is the UK's biggest
true crime event, advocating for survivors, victims and policy change
in the UK. I really can't wait for this weekend
(01:16):
and I hope to see you there. I hope you
enjoy these re uploads and get in touch let me
know what you think and if you'll be there for
the weekend.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Hello, and welcome to behind the mic at Crime Con.
We did this on a small scale at Crime Con
in London, and what I've managed to do is wrangle
I would argue some of the best podcasters in Britain
into a tiny room with possibly the worst view out
of any a window you've ever seen. I'm Bob from
(01:46):
Twister Britain and I'm joined as always by Ali my
course in Twster Britain. We are, however, joined in this
tiny little room by Adam from True Crime, Shantel from
The Lady, True Crime Justice, or Sheen from The Troubles,
Casey from Cult Vault. Ye forget that one, right, everybody,
Mike from Murder Bile and Paul the True Crime Enthusiast,
and I would be a miss to state again that
(02:09):
I think this is probably the first time we've all
sat down together in a room in front of a microphone.
We've all sat down in many a room together, most
of it involving alcohol. This is, of course, this is
a symbolving alcohol. Yeah, but what we thought we would
do would just take a moment, maybe half an hour
out of our crime con day, which has been pretty
(02:30):
good so far. I've had fun boozies. Ali and I
missed the Friday night this year of the first the
inaugural Glasgow Crime Con, and based on everybody's faces when
we arrived, I'm very sad we missed it. It seems
like it was a very good night. But we're gonna
have a good time today anyway, so I'll probably just
(02:54):
open up the microphones. It's a bit of an awkward scenario.
We'll put a foot up to go with this when
we when we release it, there are are what's that
eight of us sat around four microphone so we're being friendly,
shall we see kick us off? I suppose The obvious
question is why do you podcast? And anybody want to
go with why do you podcast?
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Because we love it?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
We love what we do.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
We love telling stories with storytellers we find I think
I do because I find people fascinating. People are people
are real and original. But biography is I don't know
whether you guys agree. When you read a biography, it's
kind of not honest or autobiography, it's not honest, it's
not real, whereas murder is unbiased. If you're an asshole,
(03:39):
it's gonna come out.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
And with shameless money, haules shameless money. I wish we
all were.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
I don't think anyone starts the podcast to make money.
But I guess after you spend a lot of your life,
you spent you know, I found myself I was doing
more on the podcast than my full time job. So
then it kind of turns into something different. And I
think some people the love goes out of them when
you start to chasing financial goals. I guess even the
ways to phrase it, but it once you kind of
remember that why you're doing this in the first place, now,
which you enjoy what you do. I think that's important.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
I think I don't think any of us really started
this as a journey in order to be famous and
raal because that's a joke. We didn't do it because
we love it.
Speaker 6 (04:20):
I was saying earlier, if I was to have this
podcast and nobody was lisn't it, I would still be
doing it week.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
In, week out.
Speaker 7 (04:27):
Passion.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, of course, I suppose then the obvious follow up
to that and ocean you've just said, you know, it
does take over your life ever so slightly. You know,
it does become more than a full time job. And
I don't think anybody here would disagree with that. Who
who would you? How much time would you say that?
This takes out of a day to create an episode
(04:48):
one episode of your podcast? Throw to Casey, how long
does it take for you to put together a podcast?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Well, my show is interview based and it's a long
form podcast, so each episode is two to three hours
in length after it's been edited and the pre interview
process that goes into actually collecting the information that's needed
prior to the interview with the guest, and then editing
the episode after you've had the interview.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It's it's around eight to ten.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Hours per episode, and after two hundred episodes, you're looking
at one thousand hours of podcast content, which is probably
still hours and hours behind Adam because he's been here forever.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I'm the mval of podcasting. Well, I suppose since since
you've been brought up and highlighted, Adam, what you've been
what episode do we all know for you? K true claim.
How far are we in three hundred and three class.
Speaker 8 (05:43):
Of course, the fantastic Patreon episodes, which I recommend you.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Can find all of us on Patreon by just looking
at the Honey Hoore. You and I've talked in the
past about the way that you put your podcast together,
and I would see it's probably the different to some people.
I remember doing the behind the mic with Shanid at
Creme Coln in London, and she talked about twenty thirty
hours going into an episode. When we talked about it,
(06:08):
both buzz were shocked at how much she puts into it.
It's it's obvious in her content that that's how much
goes into it, obviously, but when we talked about it,
we both said, there's nowhere near that much, But when
you boil it down, it's still a lot of tight.
Speaker 8 (06:21):
I think the difference is if I'm sitting here in
a room like we'd buying and Casey here, the amount
of research they put into their episodes are tremendous and
polled as well.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
But with mine, I produce.
Speaker 8 (06:31):
Weekly and I aim for twenty five minutes of content,
so it's less in depth, but it's consistent every single week.
I have to bring it out, that's the thing, and
it's quenching about the network time, So I aim for
twenty five minutes. It's the sort of time that people
have if you walk in the dolls or I'm commuted
to commutables.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Washing the dishes and for the washing.
Speaker 8 (06:51):
Yeah, but sometimes I love her like some of yours,
mic is should kids at the draw as poor as well,
some of you hour and a half ones. You can
really sit down and really get into it. And I
love that deep dive as well. Yeah, And I think
that's probably the difference there is. What we've got around
the room is different. We're all under the same genre
of to crime with different versions. We've put yourself at Adam,
(07:14):
I aiming at twenty five minutes.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
We've got your interview style as you got and then
I think it would go without saying that Osceine and Paul,
you both produce can series based podcast, certainly more so
recently for yourself, Paul, how different do you find that
from being a case a week or a case every.
Speaker 7 (07:34):
I find that with multipart ones, like I've tried to
do that once a series. I tried to deep dive
into more thing might be a bit more famous.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
But I think it doesn't take it.
Speaker 7 (07:48):
Those saying maybe eight episodes, right, you can write two
episodes in one if you know what I mean, and
then you just compartmentalize and break it down. So well,
going back to what you said before, I would say
it's a minimum twenty four to thirty hours a week
to do oh last week's search right in BeO palled
in editing everything. It's a real second job.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
I was really upset when I when I had my
pilot episode, so I wrote loads. I had about three
thousand words. I was like, grand, this is going to
be hours long. I recorded it and I was like
fifteen minutes. So I was like, I can't speak any slower.
So then I realized it's just the meat what I want.
I want to probably about thirty five forty minutes. That's
what I go for. And I just, yeah, you have
(08:31):
to write an exceptional amount of words. I realized when
compared to like a chat conversation, a conversation podcast where
you just talk to somebody. So I remember just being
quite upset and I was like, oh, this is going
to be a big labor, you know. And now I'm
forty five episodes in, and it's it's just kind of gone,
I guess because we get into it. When I literally
when I get into writing an episode, I almost start
rocking because it just the writing flow goes really well.
(08:54):
And when that goes really well, it's brilliant. And then
I get into like the court case, then the appeal,
and then this court case that court case, and then
you get into the mark of it. And when you're
in the market takes a few days. It takes a
few hours to get me out of that look, which
is the model of the story that's last. And then
when you want to ravel last, eventually you get to
the end.
Speaker 6 (09:11):
Sometimes the longest fit is untangling all those little bits
that you've actually got all this information. You kind of
collect it all, and then you've got to sort it.
And it is is that sorting it all out and
going well, that's going to go there, and that's going
to go there, and that's going to go there.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I think I think it's really interesting.
Speaker 8 (09:25):
A lot of people we know this started podcasts, especially
during Lockdown and those podcasts.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
What's it called pot fade, isn't it. They're not still
producing it because.
Speaker 8 (09:32):
As Paul is it even for my shorter podcast, I
still reckon it's fifteen hours on each episode.
Speaker 7 (09:39):
Yes, I have a little kind of quirk that when
I write, as as one was saying before, about three
thousand words and that's fifteen minutes. I when I again
to myself, this is just a personal thing for me,
when I get past the seven thousand word market, it
feels like I've brought it from the back.
Speaker 6 (09:56):
Of it, and then I can when you're at like
seven thousands, you know you're about forty minutes, and then
you kind of can relax into a little bit of
mess up.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yet exactly right, Yeah, I'm gonna put that back. I
would like to interject her just ever so briefly. I
aim for about three thousand words. But I don't script
my podcast. Ali and I both, I would say, have
a completely different take on how we do things. Ali,
you would write a script. I script the entire thing.
I do it like most people.
Speaker 9 (10:25):
I do four to five thousand words and that'll do
me maybe half an hour. But I've got Bob as
well to bounce off off, so it's almost like half
of an interview style.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah, Whereas I don't write a script at all. I
do a schedulder, So my research process is listening to
content of other people who have maybe colored cases and
be that other podcasters. Paul, I've told you a few times.
I've used your old blog as a research portal, reading
more books than I ever have done before. Actually, it's
(10:56):
one of the best things about podcasting is I read
a lot more now than I ever did before. But
I bullet point things and it baffles Ali's mind. I
turn up with a two page set of bullet points
and then I just go for it and talk. And
to me, it means that because of the way our
podcast works, because there is interjection in talking over each other.
(11:17):
If he starts talking, I don't need to put my
finger on where we were. I can just go right, well,
he talked about that, so it's got that shite. We
can move on to the next bit. Guy asked you.
Speaker 5 (11:26):
I made this term over my friends. We call it
like the village idiots, which is like that is me. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
No.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
Let's say so say if you got I'm not very
with your format to say, if you prepare an episode,
one of you prepares the episode and then the other
is just the person who's not prepared, it doesn't prepare
and then just kind of acts like the listener, and
kind of that's how.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
It works, is it's on and off. Yet we call
it the wiki read. So one of us prepares an
episode and the other one reads the first paragraph on
Wikipedia just to know the name and the year, and
that's about it. And to be honest, half the time
we don't even do that.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
It's interesting that that's your format because I was a
speaking to Cherry downstairs from Cripedia and she mentioned that
her co host Morgan, who's based in America, he's script
word for word his when it's his turn they alternate weekly.
When it's his turn to present a case, he will
script everything, whereas Cherry will bullet point when it's her week.
(12:20):
So it sounds quite similar to you and Ali in
that sense, but it's the.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Ginger in her that's what adds here. So Mike, he
I always think of Mike as the king of research.
Speaker 8 (12:29):
Maybe you can just share with the group how you research,
because you take it for another level, don't you.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
I'm of the belief that you should start with nothing,
because I think I think too often if you take
someone else's work, it won't be exactly true, it'll be
their interpretation of it. So I like to start absolutely fresh.
I always go searching for a file in the archives,
the court records or police files. I don't like to
(12:56):
know anything about it. All I like to know is
is it within my area, like West End of London?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
What era?
Speaker 4 (13:03):
And you open up the file and page one it
says Susan found a handbag on Tuesday, And you go,
who's Susan, what's the handbag?
Speaker 3 (13:10):
When was Tuesday? Why? And it's it's like.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Someone's got giving you a manuscript for a novel and
they haven't put the page numbers on it.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Well, then they've dropped on the floor and.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Suddenly you have to start working out what everything is.
Speaker 6 (13:23):
That's what I love when you're doing that, when you're
going through those primary sources. Then, because you're going in
completely blind, how many times do you get, like halfway
through going Hugh, this might have potential for and then
for it just to drop. How many times did that happen?
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Yeah? Quite often? Straightening, I've got to a point now.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
In the old days, I'd have to read every page,
but now it's got to the point where I can
quickly assess it, and I've got to the point of
now being able to pick up the file and just go, Okay,
I know that there's going to be one document in
here that I need to read first, so I need
to find that and go in reverse.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
So yeah, I love it.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
I think it's useful to know as little as possible.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
But that's just my method. I've always found your take
on what you do in your podcast really interesting. I'm
sure we've probably talked about this over a few beers
in the past. Probably not as if we don't do
with that, have a drake, we'll come back. And I
know the answer to this, but I just I find
(14:23):
it really interesting. You started with literally a square mile
or a street or a mile of London, and you've
created essentially a life off of that mile from your tours,
your podcast, the whole lot. Is there an end to
that mile or you're just going to stretch it out.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
See when I started doing the Walking Tour, it was
a two hour tour and I thought, I hope there's
enough murders in order to do a two hour tour,
and literally you just do a short bullet point for
each each case. Now it's got to the point where
I keep going back to the nuclears. So it's not
even the square mile, it's five streets within the square mile.
(15:03):
And it's to the point now I'll be doing a
live show next year where I'm focusing on one street
and I've got a two hour show of every murder
that's been on this one street. And I don't even
know if I can contain it into two hours.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
So now you're saying, please no more murders.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Unless a funny I'm going to say, please no more murders.
I think that I would happily run out of content
for a true game podcast.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
We've got enough content as there is. There'll be a
history of murders. We can stop.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Now, does anybody else want to share?
Speaker 6 (15:34):
There?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Where did it come from? Like Mike says, you started
just by looking at at ashtreet? Where where? Okay? So
where did your podcast come from? What did what made
you do it?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Actually my podcast was born in lockdown, but it was
different in the sense that we just had our first child,
who was four months old, and my partner was a
key worker, and I was just tearing my hair out
in the house. I I suddenly had this huge identity switch.
I went from being Casey to be in Casey the
(16:05):
mom and everything revolved around this responsibility that I had.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Everything in my life had obviously.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Turned upside down, but a bit different to the new
typical parents because we didn't have help from.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Family coming in. Nobody could leave the house. So it
was really something that would be for me personal, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Something outside of you know, breastfeeding and nappy changing and
trying to get sleep when the baby would never sleep,
that sort of thing. And so I tried cooking and
almost made my partner sick, and then I chied Lisi,
which bored me almost to death. So so I switched
to a podcast in with the intention of covering unsolved mysteries,
(16:52):
which was just something that I personally found interesting, and
then somehow ended up on the subject of cults.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
So but.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I have found every single person that I've spoken to
so absolutely fascinating. I can't see myself hopefully being one
of these podcasts that just kind of fades out after
we come finally out of the very end of.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
The COVID era.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Well, you're locked in this room with us, no for
the next day, your chantil. You've had you had an
interesting journey through podcasting personal for you? Was it start
in a way.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
I've I've come from a background of a lot of
violence and kind of not being quite even, so I'd
never been normal. And to me, all that kind of
murdering crime and things like that, I'm very desensitized to it,
so I can look at a lot of it and
it not really affect me. And I listened to a
lot of true crime. I listened to by like Adam and.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Paul and like before, and.
Speaker 6 (17:56):
I listened to you guys before.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Thanks for that again there Now, I was just started thinking.
Speaker 6 (18:01):
Before I had started, I hadn't listened to you guys,
and I had taken like a year of false starts
of like wanting to do it, just never having the
confidence to do it. It was part kind of I've
got a drama degree. I'm not used in my drama
degree anymore. My agency was wrapped up in my kind
of family life and having something extra and then kind
of doing it. And I didn't tell anyone. You made
(18:24):
me tell people, and then the rest is history. And
I wouldn't ever want to start. Even if I only
got like six listeners that would be it. I'd still
do it.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
So I'd like to pull this back to somebody else
in the room who didn't start podcasting because he wanted
to alistair. How did you start podcasting?
Speaker 9 (18:46):
I started podcasting when you asked me to, because you
were obviously doing Twister Britain with Nadine and it was fantastic.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Thanks. It was very very good, almost as good as
it is now. I'll tell you said that as all.
It's one of these things that I had to twist
your arm to do it. And actually when we went
to crime Con the first time we went to Crime
Con in London twenty twenty one, you pretty much had
(19:18):
no idea about your crime. But without speaking for you,
I would say you've found a network of people that
you enjoy producing content for. Oh yeah, fantastic people.
Speaker 9 (19:31):
And although I didn't have a background in true crime,
history was always a huge passion of mine, and so
I got into it more to tell stories, so much
that quite a few of my cases to.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Begin with, contained almost no crime, literally none.
Speaker 9 (19:48):
My two stipulations from Bob Ware it has to be
British and it has to be crime, and I've failed
on that a good half a dozen times.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
I'd like to point out the episode that you did
about a French pigeon. Then there was a Victoria Cross,
great story, great story. I can't remember what episode, but
we'll come back to it. As I said just previously, Paul,
you started with the blog. Yeah, I started with the blog,
which ages you quite. I started on I started on
(20:18):
my Space. Yeah, Toms still my friend mom, Yeah, I did.
I started there as a blog. And it's fine too.
Speaker 7 (20:26):
Where the gentleman sat next to you that I've got
my own show. Actually when he put out a sort
of an a cook call for people to research.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
For right episodes for.
Speaker 7 (20:35):
Him, so they did what four things?
Speaker 8 (20:38):
Yeah, and the episodes of Paul wrote for me with
some really great responses as well.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Hang on, all roads lead back to Adam, and he's
God far.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
He's a pod father.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Well, we actually farther there, we get We'll get to say,
about half an hour ago before we all came up
to this room to sit down, and I've been badgering
you all to come up and do this, and and
somebody I asked you the question, who do you think
would be the leader of the cult.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Adam said nothing.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Adam just sat there and knew he was the leader.
He we'll move away from that before before before he
punished it does is that award? What's the I was
gonna say what's the case? But what's the episode or
case that sticks with you that that means the most.
What's the one that you're most proud of, or what's
(21:25):
the one that you just can't get out of your
head anyone at all?
Speaker 7 (21:28):
I'd say personally for myself because I asked this quite often.
I don't know how you can have a favorite murder.
I really don't like I could say, certainly the case
that that will stick with me most is from the
first series of the show, and it's the Monster Uster.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Well, I don't even think I.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
Need to go into that really speaks, but its finders
and what is it that what is it that sticks
with you about that?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Well?
Speaker 7 (21:55):
The sheer horror of what that fellow did to those
three children is just.
Speaker 6 (22:01):
So how did you feel when the updates kind of
happened because you did that episode years ago and then obviously.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Things have happened since yeah since been believe.
Speaker 6 (22:09):
Ye, So how did that kind of feel for you?
Because you've covered it and you know the case really well,
and did you get much reaction from people?
Speaker 7 (22:16):
Yes, yes, certainly, Yeah, people have got in touch, and
I can't believe that that far. But so why isn't
there A lot of people have got into and said,
I've never heard of this, and I wonder why that's
so forgotten. Things are the war's moods or you're just
still there like that, But things like that shouldn't be forgot.
I should be remembered. Yeah, everybody should know. In that case,
(22:38):
it's just terrible.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Well let's go let's go around the table then and
ask Mike. I could probably guess yours are we going
to go Blackout Rapper?
Speaker 4 (22:45):
Here?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I am slightly obsessed with there. I really am obsessed
with it.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
I think that was one of the ones that I
knew nothing about, and when I started the walking tour,
I thought, I hope there's something juicy on these few streets,
and the Blackout Ripper was there, never heard of it,
And it's become an obsession. I think because he said
that he was not guilty. He went to his deathbed
having said nothing. He said he was innocent, and so
(23:10):
there's a lot of gaps.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
And so it's been.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
Five years now and I'm still researching his life, still
trying to find out more. I just want to know why,
why did he do what he was such abhorrent things
and how could he be so evil to one person
and then the minute afterwards be regarded as an utter gentleman.
I think that's going to stay with me forever because
(23:35):
he was an arsehoul, utter piece I was saying to Paul.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Paul was driving me up.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
The only thing I hate about the Blackout Ripper is
when I went back to do two episodes on his
earlier crimes potential crimes. I hated going back into his
head because in order to understand some of these monsters,
I think quite a lot of us do it that
we have to think as them and think about what
their perspective of how they see the world, and sometimes
(24:03):
it's horrible just to just to be in their shoes.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
That was cheerful, Thanks, Mike, So have the needs in case,
I suppose maybe for you. Slowly different though, isn't it
because it's interviewed, So what's the best interview that? What's
the one that you've come out of and gone.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Yes, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
I'm not sure that there was a few that there
have been a few comments, posts, emails and things from
individuals who have thought about joining a certain group, gone
to research them and found an episode about them online,
listened to my podcast and then said, I'm so thankful
that I found your show because I didn't join. And
(24:46):
in turn, people have come out and said that listening
to other survivor testimonies on my podcast has been the
catalyst for them to actually leave the group that they
were involved in, which is huge. But in terms of
episodes that stick with me the most, there was one
gentleman I interviewed called Kerry Noble who was a former
(25:10):
co leader of a group called the Covenant the Sword
in the Arm of the Lord, which turned from as
cults often do, a kind of intentional living commune styled
utopian group in a rural part of America, to a
(25:30):
very isolated, secluded, far right extremist, white supremacist, racist, homophobic
religious cult who ended up creating their own pipe bombs
and putting landmines in the ground around their home and
putting bombs in suitcases and leaving them in LGBT friendly churches.
(25:52):
And Kerry actually ended up serving time for the crimes
that he committed, and now he has written books and
tours around the world giving talks on how we can
improve ourselves as human beings. And he's actually a really
(26:12):
inspiring individual to speak to. And I think it's only
after hours and hours of listening to survive a testimony
and understand in the psychology of coercive control that you
can actually sit down and talk with Kerry and understand
that he's not a hideous human being because of the
things that he's done, which is really important to remember
(26:33):
but also difficult to juggle as well.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Oh, she you have quite a specific topic for your podcast.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
My podcast is a bit that troubles in Northern Ireland. Yeah,
and I think I put out about fifteen episodes or so,
and it was kind of not quite imposter syndrome, but
it was like I finally started to feel a bit
comfortable and I felt like I actually had the authority
to speak about this stuff because I've just been doing
so much research.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
So it was my first interview.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
It was with a man by the name of Richard
Moore and he was ten years old when he was
kind of looking at a British Army post beside his
school when a rubber bullet came out of nowhere and
got him right between the eyes and blinded him permanently, so.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
It didn't really let it affect him too much.
Speaker 5 (27:15):
You know, he was cycling bikes and trying to football
and everything. Again, a pretty good upbringing. But I was
really interested to be like, you know, Richard, how did
you manage to avoid turning into hate? Turning towards hate?
And he was like, well, of his parents, it's that simple.
So a couple of years later, his uncle was then
caught up in Bloody Sunday. He was killed in Bloody Sunday.
So he just vividly remembers when he was upstairs in
(27:36):
his room as a child and his brother was screaming.
He his brother was seventeen or eighteen, screaming at his mother.
They murdered my uncle. They blinded Richard. We have to
get them back, we have to essentially say joining the
IRA or something. And his parents were just firm they said, no,
we don't turn to hate, we don't turn to this.
And it was a really really powerful interview and it
(27:58):
just really stayed with me kind of. Richard has gone
on to have an amazing life, like he owns a
radio station, he has a charity in Africa. He doesn't
he just lives to share goodness and happiness, and though
his life has been so affected permanently, he never turned
in that direction. And he's almost like a lesson that
it doesn't necessarily hate, doesn't.
Speaker 8 (28:15):
Have to lead to more hate.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
And I think that was just really powerful for me.
I was literally in tears after the interview was a
very very intense interview. I don't think I'll ever match
it again. But he was just such a beautiful speaker,
you know, I don't think I had to do much
just talk gendy to him.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
I remember you telling us about that interview at Crean
Coin in London. We were talking about it and your
passion just there and when you were talking about it
before shows how much that interview meant to you. And yeah,
the content that goes with it is just incredible. He's
also a very tricky subject. We'll come back to that
in just a moment.
Speaker 6 (28:48):
However, every single one sticks with me because you live
them while you're researching with them, you are living them
for me, I suppose. And my two year anniversary one
I did Patricia Hessler and she was murdered by her
(29:11):
solicitor who was also her lover. But she just had
such just one failure after another failure to her, she
she wasn't doing it, and she clearly had become troubled
because of her life and kept making these wrong turns.
And it's so you so close to either becoming a
(29:34):
victim or being a perpetrate. The man he murdered her,
he never wanted to do that, and you could tell
that from reading his testimony. You could tell he never
ever wanted to of hair on her head. And it's
just because it's so close. So we were all very
very close to living in a completely different life. And
I don't know, maybe I see a little bit of
(29:55):
myself in her in that kind of because I have
that wild.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Tender see that she kind of had really no someone
get hi, Yeah, I have a tract to say, I'm good.
Oh yeah, three o'clock in the Afternoma Adam, you have
three hundred episodes to choose from. Which is the one
that sticks with you?
Speaker 8 (30:20):
But as you know, I don't tend to cover popular
cases because I just don't see the point and then
I can add any value to that. But the one
popular case, says Mike and Paul will know in Our
Lives show at the Moment, tickets still available sober the fourth.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
I'll like that you said, I'm going to edit this
before I talk before it's the case.
Speaker 8 (30:41):
And I always asked inside, who knows about Stuart Lobbert
and the audience one or two? And Michael barrymore the
body in the pool? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone knows
the Michael. And what fascinates me so much about it
is nine people went to the party, only eight came
out alive.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Eight people they know what happened this guy.
Speaker 8 (31:01):
When we first heard story, my first take on it, well,
he must have been gay. His parents weren't aware that
was wrong, and it's absolutely wrong, absolutely wrong. He was
great and he was murdered. And eight people there, they
know what happened and they're not telling. How can that
possibly be the case? How can no one being found
guilty of murder. It's an utter our rage. And his dad,
(31:22):
Terry would all have heard him on the TV, in
the radio. The guy just lived to find out what
happened to his son. Now he's died about finding justice,
and we're thinking of other high profile cases like the.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Mare's murder we mentioned earlier. You know, where the families
die without having justice. It's just not right.
Speaker 8 (31:37):
Is it something's wrong with our legal system that they
can't be brought to justice Like quiet.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
It's the one thing that always bothers me when we
do cases, no matter what it is, and no outcome
is worse than annoying the most horrific thing. And on
that note, I will turn to Ali because he knows
that the thing that annoys me most is no outcome,
and he keeps doing the bloody cases. I probably know
(32:04):
the answer to this question, but what's the favorite one
you've covered or we've covered for me? I don't like
the word favorite, because we're not glorifying the most interesting one.
Speaker 9 (32:17):
Interesting interesting one for me was the Dreadnought Hawks, which
we where Virginia Wolf and three of her Cambridge school
friends posed as the Abyssinian royal family in full dress
and full black face and snuck on to well, not
snuck on, but posing as the Abyssinian royal family, it
(32:37):
got a tour of the Royal Navy's new fairly secret
battleship and then went public with it afterwards.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
To shame the Royal Navy. It's a full gun salute, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
Did they invent their own?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (32:50):
That's what they couldn't speak Abyssinian, so every time they
were shown something impressive, they jumped up and down and
said bunga, bunga and then added some pig land. It's
a really good Doug Cotts. It's a great episode. That
was my favorite one to a research, and it was
also the one.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Where I knew you had continue doing this podcast.
Speaker 9 (33:10):
The one that affected me most was Jesse King, a
Glasswegian woman who adopted and killed children, and like Mike
was saying, sometimes we have to get into the mindset
of these people, and I found it inconceivable how somebody
could do this to begin with, but then learning what
a hard life she had had before that, and some
(33:33):
of the things that had happened to her illegitimate children
were of course illegal at the time, and she was
put in an asylum and treated with mercury for her depression.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
And it is a tragic story, and that one really
affected me.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
I think it's only after working in this space so
that you were able to develop that kind of insight
and compassion that you've just mentioned there around looking at
how she not the hideous crimes at the center, around
about how it got to that point in the first place,
and that's exactly the same when you're talking with COLT
(34:08):
survivors who have recruited other people into coercive environments or
have not gone to the police with reports of child
abuse and things like that. So I think that's that's
really important to mention, and then also to just ask
Bob what your most interesting case.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
I thought I was hoping we'd skip over this. Don't
press it though. The reason I laugh there is the
case that has always stuck with me is the Bland
trunk murders. Now I say murders, but there's only one
that we can prove was actually within the actual story,
(34:48):
there's bits and pieces. The reason I laugh there is
on our recording podcast equipment just now, I have the
please don't leave baggage equipment unattended or will blow up,
and I keep pressing it at the wrong time instead
of doing the outro music to Twisted. But it was
one of my most interesting readings because it is one
(35:09):
like your Blackout Ripper. There will be no end to that.
We have no idea the the scope and the width
of what actually happened there, or whether it was a
coincidence that several women's bodies turned up in trunks and
lockers at the same time. Having said that, the one
that affected me most, it was now nineteen eight percent
(35:31):
of the podcasts that that I did with Nadane or
that I do with Ali are all historical. We don't
like to do living memory podcasts cases because I just
I don't feel comfortable doing them. The one that we
did do was the breck bed in Oar case, where
it was groomed by essentially a peer of his online
(35:52):
before online gaming rooms were a thing, and it was
done via messaging boards. And it hit really home with
me because actually we grew up Ali and I both
grew up in a time where we gained a lot.
We're both still big gamers, and this really unfortunate soul
got sucked into a world that he should never have
(36:14):
been exposed to and was ended up horrifically murdered by
one of the nastiest men that ever walked this country.
And I'll leave it at that because it really upsets me.
I said, we'll come back to you in a second ocean,
and I don't want to come back to you specifically
because of the troubles what you're talking about. I just
(36:34):
noted Casey when you were talking you were really careful
about your words that you chose, that you specifically didn't
say cult. You kept saying group, and I wanted to
put it to the cult, sorry, the group that is here.
Are you really careful about what you say? Are you
really careful about the cases you pick and the words
that you choose to tell them? Is it something that
processes your mind when you're doing that.
Speaker 6 (36:58):
There were certain cases I wen't talk. There are certain
ones because like you, I don't like doing living memory
ones if I can help it. But there are certain
ones that I can't touch because I contact families if
I can, and I ask and sometimes they say no,
So I'll never do those ones. But there are certain
things that make me uncomfortable. If I know somebody could
(37:21):
possibly have parole and I would think of them like that,
that would put me off, just in my head, mainly
because I have a family stuff, and I don't think
anything actually would happen. But possibilities are always the thing.
And because of podcasts and stuff, you do become hyper
alert to what you do and what you say. And
there are certain words you wouldn't say. And I've been
(37:42):
pulled up on I think I was speaking to somebody earlier,
I had a comment from somebody who had listened to
the show but weren't a follower or anything, and they
were like, why did you say completed suicide instead of
committed and having to explain that. And it's just about
being respectful. I think everybody here certainly is just about
being as respectful as possible. So where it comes to whirling,
(38:04):
for me, that's.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
What it is.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
I think also knowledge as well. I find that sometimes
when I go through like call records or the police files,
I've worked out that I'm in a very privileged position.
I know more than the family knows it. And it's
a really fine line. Quite often families will get in
contact and will say what you wrote was bullshit, and
then I have to go through the whole process of saying, actually,
(38:29):
what you know is only a version of what you've
been told and it's not entirely true. And that's really
difficult to say to someone the person you loved and
the person who's no longer there, who can't fight for themselves,
now what you know about them is probably not true.
They may have lied to or they may have skipped
over some details, so it's difficult isn't it.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
I need to be very careful with the words that
I use, and it's a bit of a pain when
I'm writing, because you have to be it's such a
sensitive topic and what people in the UK would call
a terrorists what people in Northern Ireland might call a
freedom fighter, you know, So you and you never want
to convey bias. If I feel like if I convey biased,
then the integrity of the podcast is gone. So I
(39:12):
can't convey up bias. I have to be very careful
with the words that I use to try and just
I just keep imagining. It's a tight rope and I'm
trying to stay in the middle with even like assassinate
versus murder, killed versus you to be so careful with
the words that you use. Plus I have no idea
understanding of libel laws, so I try and stick with
try and stick with people who are you know, not
(39:32):
around anymore. I have no idea hard right by Jerry Adams.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Oh god, well, no idea. It was just wait a
few was s. It's a wonderful point to move on.
And I suppose we've been talking in your ears for
be well now and we'll come to a wrap up,
but I would like to post everybody one question before
we do. If you sat here now had never started
a podcast, but you know what you know now, would
(39:57):
you have started a podcast, would you start up podcast?
Speaker 8 (40:00):
Nodam, Yeah, I'd start a podcast because I know it's
a lot of work and sometimes when you're tired and
life happens, it's a bit of a pain. But look
at the guys were sitting with the people in the
room today. You know they've started off as people we
just knew of their podcasts. They become friends and it's
one of those things that when I started a podcast,
I thought, am I going to mean competition with other podcasters.
We've discussed this a lot here. We're not talking composition,
(40:23):
we share listeners. There's enough cake to go all round,
and I think it's a really nice community.
Speaker 6 (40:30):
I don't think I would ever give this up. There's
always gonna be a bit of me that would want
to do it anyway, So I would be doing this
either way.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
It's like what you were.
Speaker 6 (40:38):
Saying about the fact that we have a little community
here when we're not competitors and we can all kind
of lean on each other. There are times where we
cross over on cases and things like that. But we
all have different skills and we all create different shows
completely unique to us, and I think that's what's brilliant
about our community.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Well, unless you do the Murdo area of London. Still
that's been stare so so the time he's been sad.
I maybe when as it did the Blackout Rapper in
one episode. Yeah, USh, yeah, I'd say absolutely absolutely. I
can't like paint a picture awful, absolutely awful. But for me,
(41:16):
this is I've never felt such a sense of satisfaction
to essentially be a creative. Even if I'm writing a
very dense, murky piece, you're creating absolutely nothing.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
You're making something. And of course when you hear feedback,
it's it's it's wonderful. It's really wonderful when people reach out.
Rarely that they do, but when they do, it's it's
just so satisfying, you know.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Yeah, hitting the upload button after the ground of putting
an episode together is probably one of the most as
like a hit.
Speaker 10 (41:46):
On the old.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
You're probably the must you're the newest starter of us all.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I think I think I probably am.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Yeah. I I.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Really love podcasting. I really love the format that podcasting takes,
but I find that I love speaking with people. So
if it wasn't podcasting, I think maybe it would be journalism,
or maybe it would be working with survivors in an
(42:22):
expert recovery capacity.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
But I love podcasting and.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
I find the subject of cults and coercion fascinating. So
the fact that I'm able to merge those two things
together and then come to a place like Crime can't
where you would think that, you know, fifty podcasters all
working in the true crime space. As Adam and Chanteal
have mentioned, We're all carving out our own small space
(42:50):
within that space, and it really does feel it really
does feel wonderful. So yeah, I'm thankful every time I
get the opportunity to be to be at these events,
and then looking forward to going to see Adam and
Paul and Mike at their live show.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
We'll get it available off of those tickets in a minute,
don't you what? And Mike, would you would you start
a podcast now? Knowing what you and Neil?
Speaker 4 (43:15):
Absolutely, every single thing creative that I've done my life
has led to this moment.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Every time in my past is like.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
Writing different things, putting on different plays. My love of
recording audio and making little soundscapes. It's all led up
to this, so I I don't know what's coming next,
but this is this is like a cherry on the cake.
It's wonderful and as we've all said, even if even
if our podcast network collapse tomorrow, all of us in
(43:44):
this room would still be doing it, not making any money,
and still doing it because we love it.
Speaker 7 (43:50):
Well, yeah, there's nothing else I can add really that
the restaurant on the table have said, I certainly started
tomorrow again. Yeah, it's my passion. And as Casey said before,
you get that when you upload, you get that buzz,
don't you. I'm seeing some of the feedback about how
they touch people and in my own and said we're
(44:10):
looking at enough top Patreon now as well.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Army. It's absolutely wonderful thing experience. Could I convince you
to start another alley knowing what I know now?
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (44:23):
Absolutely, It's fantastically rewarding. It's one of the most rewarding
things I've ever done. But I certainly can't imagine doing
it by myself.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Or without you.
Speaker 10 (44:34):
Anna's because it's a This gives me a great opportunity
to thank him as well, because I certainly would never
have started a podcast without being pushed by Ball to
come and join him.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Is in a culture here, I wouldn't. I've had enough
of this ship and now I'm getting out. No, no
at all.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
I should have asked, actually, like how many podcasts do
you have in your mind? Like when you actually you know,
how do you stop podcasting once you've started?
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Because I happen a thousand?
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Oh yeah, they can't coming. I said, that was the
last question. I'm going to do this and I just
want one answer out of you, just a sentence or
a title. Alian and I did this during and any
Questions Answered session that we had our Facebook followers sending answers.
We were asked, if you had to start a podcast
now and it wasn't true crime, what would the title
(45:26):
of the show be.
Speaker 8 (45:29):
I Love the Kings of Leon, badly written porn, mister Big,
speaking of.
Speaker 4 (45:38):
In my street, take.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Shargon anony mouse poetry, and I would like to review
the same pint of tenants in every pub in Scotland.
So my pint, my time, and talking of time, we
are running out of it. I would like to thank
you guys for listening. As always, I would like to
Thank Adam Chantelle, Ohsin Casey, Mike Paul and Ali for
(46:08):
what you had no choice you were joining me anyway.
For joining us If you want to listen to our
voices again and why the hell would you not, You
can find the UK You Cry and Lady Justice podcast,
The Troubles, Cult, Vault, Murder, Mile, True Kund Enthusiasts and
Twisted Britain pretty much anywhere you find a podcast. If
you can't find it, google it,
Hello listeners and or welcome to you this special re
release series of the live talks that I have recorded
at crime Con UK. As we are so close to
the event in London now on the seventh and eighth
of June twenty twenty five, I thought it would be
a great opportunity to re upload the talks that I've
done previously at this event. For those of you that
(00:22):
have been tuning in for a while, these talks might
be familiar to you, but for those who are new
to the show, here is a taste of what you
can expect from crime Con UK across the weekend in London.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
We will also be.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
In Manchester in September and I hope to be doing
a talk at this event too. This year, I am
lucky enough to be on a panel with Laura Richards
no Less talking about coercive control and cult. You can
buy your tickets at crimecon dot co dot uk and
use the code cult cult at the checkout for ten
(00:54):
percent off your tickets. Patrons also receive a fifteen percent
discount code so you can contact me for directly. Crime
Con UK, sponsored by True Crime, is the UK's biggest
true crime event, advocating for survivors, victims and policy change
in the UK. I really can't wait for this weekend
(01:16):
and I hope to see you there. I hope you
enjoy these re uploads and get in touch let me
know what you think and if you'll be there for
the weekend.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Hello, and welcome to behind the mic at Crime Con.
We did this on a small scale at Crime Con
in London, and what I've managed to do is wrangle
I would argue some of the best podcasters in Britain
into a tiny room with possibly the worst view out
of any a window you've ever seen. I'm Bob from
(01:46):
Twister Britain and I'm joined as always by Ali my
course in Twster Britain. We are, however, joined in this
tiny little room by Adam from True Crime, Shantel from
The Lady, True Crime Justice, or Sheen from The Troubles,
Casey from Cult Vault. Ye forget that one, right, everybody,
Mike from Murder Bile and Paul the True Crime Enthusiast,
and I would be a miss to state again that
(02:09):
I think this is probably the first time we've all
sat down together in a room in front of a microphone.
We've all sat down in many a room together, most
of it involving alcohol. This is, of course, this is
a symbolving alcohol. Yeah, but what we thought we would
do would just take a moment, maybe half an hour
out of our crime con day, which has been pretty
(02:30):
good so far. I've had fun boozies. Ali and I
missed the Friday night this year of the first the
inaugural Glasgow Crime Con, and based on everybody's faces when
we arrived, I'm very sad we missed it. It seems
like it was a very good night. But we're gonna
have a good time today anyway, so I'll probably just
(02:54):
open up the microphones. It's a bit of an awkward scenario.
We'll put a foot up to go with this when
we when we release it, there are are what's that
eight of us sat around four microphone so we're being friendly,
shall we see kick us off? I suppose The obvious
question is why do you podcast? And anybody want to
go with why do you podcast?
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Because we love it?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
We love what we do.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
We love telling stories with storytellers we find I think
I do because I find people fascinating. People are people
are real and original. But biography is I don't know
whether you guys agree. When you read a biography, it's
kind of not honest or autobiography, it's not honest, it's
not real, whereas murder is unbiased. If you're an asshole,
(03:39):
it's gonna come out.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
And with shameless money, haules shameless money. I wish we
all were.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
I don't think anyone starts the podcast to make money.
But I guess after you spend a lot of your life,
you spent you know, I found myself I was doing
more on the podcast than my full time job. So
then it kind of turns into something different. And I
think some people the love goes out of them when
you start to chasing financial goals. I guess even the
ways to phrase it, but it once you kind of
remember that why you're doing this in the first place, now,
which you enjoy what you do. I think that's important.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
I think I don't think any of us really started
this as a journey in order to be famous and
raal because that's a joke. We didn't do it because
we love it.
Speaker 6 (04:20):
I was saying earlier, if I was to have this
podcast and nobody was lisn't it, I would still be
doing it week.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
In, week out.
Speaker 7 (04:27):
Passion.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, of course, I suppose then the obvious follow up
to that and ocean you've just said, you know, it
does take over your life ever so slightly. You know,
it does become more than a full time job. And
I don't think anybody here would disagree with that. Who
who would you? How much time would you say that?
This takes out of a day to create an episode
(04:48):
one episode of your podcast? Throw to Casey, how long
does it take for you to put together a podcast?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Well, my show is interview based and it's a long
form podcast, so each episode is two to three hours
in length after it's been edited and the pre interview
process that goes into actually collecting the information that's needed
prior to the interview with the guest, and then editing
the episode after you've had the interview.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It's it's around eight to ten.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Hours per episode, and after two hundred episodes, you're looking
at one thousand hours of podcast content, which is probably
still hours and hours behind Adam because he's been here forever.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I'm the mval of podcasting. Well, I suppose since since
you've been brought up and highlighted, Adam, what you've been
what episode do we all know for you? K true claim.
How far are we in three hundred and three class.
Speaker 8 (05:43):
Of course, the fantastic Patreon episodes, which I recommend you.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Can find all of us on Patreon by just looking
at the Honey Hoore. You and I've talked in the
past about the way that you put your podcast together,
and I would see it's probably the different to some people.
I remember doing the behind the mic with Shanid at
Creme Coln in London, and she talked about twenty thirty
hours going into an episode. When we talked about it,
(06:08):
both buzz were shocked at how much she puts into it.
It's it's obvious in her content that that's how much
goes into it, obviously, but when we talked about it,
we both said, there's nowhere near that much, But when
you boil it down, it's still a lot of tight.
Speaker 8 (06:21):
I think the difference is if I'm sitting here in
a room like we'd buying and Casey here, the amount
of research they put into their episodes are tremendous and
polled as well.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
But with mine, I produce.
Speaker 8 (06:31):
Weekly and I aim for twenty five minutes of content,
so it's less in depth, but it's consistent every single week.
I have to bring it out, that's the thing, and
it's quenching about the network time, So I aim for
twenty five minutes. It's the sort of time that people
have if you walk in the dolls or I'm commuted
to commutables.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Washing the dishes and for the washing.
Speaker 8 (06:51):
Yeah, but sometimes I love her like some of yours,
mic is should kids at the draw as poor as well,
some of you hour and a half ones. You can
really sit down and really get into it. And I
love that deep dive as well. Yeah, And I think
that's probably the difference there is. What we've got around
the room is different. We're all under the same genre
of to crime with different versions. We've put yourself at Adam,
(07:14):
I aiming at twenty five minutes.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
We've got your interview style as you got and then
I think it would go without saying that Osceine and Paul,
you both produce can series based podcast, certainly more so
recently for yourself, Paul, how different do you find that
from being a case a week or a case every.
Speaker 7 (07:34):
I find that with multipart ones, like I've tried to
do that once a series. I tried to deep dive
into more thing might be a bit more famous.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
But I think it doesn't take it.
Speaker 7 (07:48):
Those saying maybe eight episodes, right, you can write two
episodes in one if you know what I mean, and
then you just compartmentalize and break it down. So well,
going back to what you said before, I would say
it's a minimum twenty four to thirty hours a week
to do oh last week's search right in BeO palled
in editing everything. It's a real second job.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
I was really upset when I when I had my
pilot episode, so I wrote loads. I had about three
thousand words. I was like, grand, this is going to
be hours long. I recorded it and I was like
fifteen minutes. So I was like, I can't speak any slower.
So then I realized it's just the meat what I want.
I want to probably about thirty five forty minutes. That's
what I go for. And I just, yeah, you have
(08:31):
to write an exceptional amount of words. I realized when
compared to like a chat conversation, a conversation podcast where
you just talk to somebody. So I remember just being
quite upset and I was like, oh, this is going
to be a big labor, you know. And now I'm
forty five episodes in, and it's it's just kind of gone,
I guess because we get into it. When I literally
when I get into writing an episode, I almost start
rocking because it just the writing flow goes really well.
(08:54):
And when that goes really well, it's brilliant. And then
I get into like the court case, then the appeal,
and then this court case that court case, and then
you get into the mark of it. And when you're
in the market takes a few days. It takes a
few hours to get me out of that look, which
is the model of the story that's last. And then
when you want to ravel last, eventually you get to
the end.
Speaker 6 (09:11):
Sometimes the longest fit is untangling all those little bits
that you've actually got all this information. You kind of
collect it all, and then you've got to sort it.
And it is is that sorting it all out and
going well, that's going to go there, and that's going
to go there, and that's going to go there.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I think I think it's really interesting.
Speaker 8 (09:25):
A lot of people we know this started podcasts, especially
during Lockdown and those podcasts.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
What's it called pot fade, isn't it. They're not still
producing it because.
Speaker 8 (09:32):
As Paul is it even for my shorter podcast, I
still reckon it's fifteen hours on each episode.
Speaker 7 (09:39):
Yes, I have a little kind of quirk that when
I write, as as one was saying before, about three
thousand words and that's fifteen minutes. I when I again
to myself, this is just a personal thing for me,
when I get past the seven thousand word market, it
feels like I've brought it from the back.
Speaker 6 (09:56):
Of it, and then I can when you're at like
seven thousands, you know you're about forty minutes, and then
you kind of can relax into a little bit of
mess up.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yet exactly right, Yeah, I'm gonna put that back. I
would like to interject her just ever so briefly. I
aim for about three thousand words. But I don't script
my podcast. Ali and I both, I would say, have
a completely different take on how we do things. Ali,
you would write a script. I script the entire thing.
I do it like most people.
Speaker 9 (10:25):
I do four to five thousand words and that'll do
me maybe half an hour. But I've got Bob as
well to bounce off off, so it's almost like half
of an interview style.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah, Whereas I don't write a script at all. I
do a schedulder, So my research process is listening to
content of other people who have maybe colored cases and
be that other podcasters. Paul, I've told you a few times.
I've used your old blog as a research portal, reading
more books than I ever have done before. Actually, it's
(10:56):
one of the best things about podcasting is I read
a lot more now than I ever did before. But
I bullet point things and it baffles Ali's mind. I
turn up with a two page set of bullet points
and then I just go for it and talk. And
to me, it means that because of the way our
podcast works, because there is interjection in talking over each other.
(11:17):
If he starts talking, I don't need to put my
finger on where we were. I can just go right, well,
he talked about that, so it's got that shite. We
can move on to the next bit. Guy asked you.
Speaker 5 (11:26):
I made this term over my friends. We call it
like the village idiots, which is like that is me. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
No.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
Let's say so say if you got I'm not very
with your format to say, if you prepare an episode,
one of you prepares the episode and then the other
is just the person who's not prepared, it doesn't prepare
and then just kind of acts like the listener, and
kind of that's how.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
It works, is it's on and off. Yet we call
it the wiki read. So one of us prepares an
episode and the other one reads the first paragraph on
Wikipedia just to know the name and the year, and
that's about it. And to be honest, half the time
we don't even do that.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
It's interesting that that's your format because I was a
speaking to Cherry downstairs from Cripedia and she mentioned that
her co host Morgan, who's based in America, he's script
word for word his when it's his turn they alternate weekly.
When it's his turn to present a case, he will
script everything, whereas Cherry will bullet point when it's her week.
(12:20):
So it sounds quite similar to you and Ali in
that sense, but it's the.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Ginger in her that's what adds here. So Mike, he
I always think of Mike as the king of research.
Speaker 8 (12:29):
Maybe you can just share with the group how you research,
because you take it for another level, don't you.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
I'm of the belief that you should start with nothing,
because I think I think too often if you take
someone else's work, it won't be exactly true, it'll be
their interpretation of it. So I like to start absolutely fresh.
I always go searching for a file in the archives,
the court records or police files. I don't like to
(12:56):
know anything about it. All I like to know is
is it within my area, like West End of London?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
What era?
Speaker 4 (13:03):
And you open up the file and page one it
says Susan found a handbag on Tuesday, And you go,
who's Susan, what's the handbag?
Speaker 3 (13:10):
When was Tuesday? Why? And it's it's like.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Someone's got giving you a manuscript for a novel and
they haven't put the page numbers on it.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Well, then they've dropped on the floor and.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Suddenly you have to start working out what everything is.
Speaker 6 (13:23):
That's what I love when you're doing that, when you're
going through those primary sources. Then, because you're going in
completely blind, how many times do you get, like halfway
through going Hugh, this might have potential for and then
for it just to drop. How many times did that happen?
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Yeah? Quite often? Straightening, I've got to a point now.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
In the old days, I'd have to read every page,
but now it's got to the point where I can
quickly assess it, and I've got to the point of
now being able to pick up the file and just go, Okay,
I know that there's going to be one document in
here that I need to read first, so I need
to find that and go in reverse.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
So yeah, I love it.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
I think it's useful to know as little as possible.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
But that's just my method. I've always found your take
on what you do in your podcast really interesting. I'm
sure we've probably talked about this over a few beers
in the past. Probably not as if we don't do
with that, have a drake, we'll come back. And I
know the answer to this, but I just I find
(14:23):
it really interesting. You started with literally a square mile
or a street or a mile of London, and you've
created essentially a life off of that mile from your tours,
your podcast, the whole lot. Is there an end to
that mile or you're just going to stretch it out.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
See when I started doing the Walking Tour, it was
a two hour tour and I thought, I hope there's
enough murders in order to do a two hour tour,
and literally you just do a short bullet point for
each each case. Now it's got to the point where
I keep going back to the nuclears. So it's not
even the square mile, it's five streets within the square mile.
(15:03):
And it's to the point now I'll be doing a
live show next year where I'm focusing on one street
and I've got a two hour show of every murder
that's been on this one street. And I don't even
know if I can contain it into two hours.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
So now you're saying, please no more murders.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Unless a funny I'm going to say, please no more murders.
I think that I would happily run out of content
for a true game podcast.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
We've got enough content as there is. There'll be a
history of murders. We can stop.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Now, does anybody else want to share?
Speaker 6 (15:34):
There?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Where did it come from? Like Mike says, you started
just by looking at at ashtreet? Where where? Okay? So
where did your podcast come from? What did what made
you do it?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Actually my podcast was born in lockdown, but it was
different in the sense that we just had our first child,
who was four months old, and my partner was a
key worker, and I was just tearing my hair out
in the house. I I suddenly had this huge identity switch.
I went from being Casey to be in Casey the
(16:05):
mom and everything revolved around this responsibility that I had.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Everything in my life had obviously.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Turned upside down, but a bit different to the new
typical parents because we didn't have help from.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Family coming in. Nobody could leave the house. So it
was really something that would be for me personal, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Something outside of you know, breastfeeding and nappy changing and
trying to get sleep when the baby would never sleep,
that sort of thing. And so I tried cooking and
almost made my partner sick, and then I chied Lisi,
which bored me almost to death. So so I switched
to a podcast in with the intention of covering unsolved mysteries,
(16:52):
which was just something that I personally found interesting, and
then somehow ended up on the subject of cults.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
So but.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I have found every single person that I've spoken to
so absolutely fascinating. I can't see myself hopefully being one
of these podcasts that just kind of fades out after
we come finally out of the very end of.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
The COVID era.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Well, you're locked in this room with us, no for
the next day, your chantil. You've had you had an
interesting journey through podcasting personal for you? Was it start
in a way.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
I've I've come from a background of a lot of
violence and kind of not being quite even, so I'd
never been normal. And to me, all that kind of
murdering crime and things like that, I'm very desensitized to it,
so I can look at a lot of it and
it not really affect me. And I listened to a
lot of true crime. I listened to by like Adam and.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Paul and like before, and.
Speaker 6 (17:56):
I listened to you guys before.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Thanks for that again there Now, I was just started thinking.
Speaker 6 (18:01):
Before I had started, I hadn't listened to you guys,
and I had taken like a year of false starts
of like wanting to do it, just never having the
confidence to do it. It was part kind of I've
got a drama degree. I'm not used in my drama
degree anymore. My agency was wrapped up in my kind
of family life and having something extra and then kind
of doing it. And I didn't tell anyone. You made
(18:24):
me tell people, and then the rest is history. And
I wouldn't ever want to start. Even if I only
got like six listeners that would be it. I'd still
do it.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
So I'd like to pull this back to somebody else
in the room who didn't start podcasting because he wanted
to alistair. How did you start podcasting?
Speaker 9 (18:46):
I started podcasting when you asked me to, because you
were obviously doing Twister Britain with Nadine and it was fantastic.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Thanks. It was very very good, almost as good as
it is now. I'll tell you said that as all.
It's one of these things that I had to twist
your arm to do it. And actually when we went
to crime Con the first time we went to Crime
Con in London twenty twenty one, you pretty much had
(19:18):
no idea about your crime. But without speaking for you,
I would say you've found a network of people that
you enjoy producing content for. Oh yeah, fantastic people.
Speaker 9 (19:31):
And although I didn't have a background in true crime,
history was always a huge passion of mine, and so
I got into it more to tell stories, so much
that quite a few of my cases to.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Begin with, contained almost no crime, literally none.
Speaker 9 (19:48):
My two stipulations from Bob Ware it has to be
British and it has to be crime, and I've failed
on that a good half a dozen times.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
I'd like to point out the episode that you did
about a French pigeon. Then there was a Victoria Cross,
great story, great story. I can't remember what episode, but
we'll come back to it. As I said just previously, Paul,
you started with the blog. Yeah, I started with the blog,
which ages you quite. I started on I started on
(20:18):
my Space. Yeah, Toms still my friend mom, Yeah, I did.
I started there as a blog. And it's fine too.
Speaker 7 (20:26):
Where the gentleman sat next to you that I've got
my own show. Actually when he put out a sort
of an a cook call for people to research.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
For right episodes for.
Speaker 7 (20:35):
Him, so they did what four things?
Speaker 8 (20:38):
Yeah, and the episodes of Paul wrote for me with
some really great responses as well.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Hang on, all roads lead back to Adam, and he's
God far.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
He's a pod father.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Well, we actually farther there, we get We'll get to say,
about half an hour ago before we all came up
to this room to sit down, and I've been badgering
you all to come up and do this, and and
somebody I asked you the question, who do you think
would be the leader of the cult.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Adam said nothing.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Adam just sat there and knew he was the leader.
He we'll move away from that before before before he
punished it does is that award? What's the I was
gonna say what's the case? But what's the episode or
case that sticks with you that that means the most.
What's the one that you're most proud of, or what's
(21:25):
the one that you just can't get out of your
head anyone at all?
Speaker 7 (21:28):
I'd say personally for myself because I asked this quite often.
I don't know how you can have a favorite murder.
I really don't like I could say, certainly the case
that that will stick with me most is from the
first series of the show, and it's the Monster Uster.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Well, I don't even think I.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
Need to go into that really speaks, but its finders
and what is it that what is it that sticks
with you about that?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Well?
Speaker 7 (21:55):
The sheer horror of what that fellow did to those
three children is just.
Speaker 6 (22:01):
So how did you feel when the updates kind of
happened because you did that episode years ago and then obviously.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Things have happened since yeah since been believe.
Speaker 6 (22:09):
Ye, So how did that kind of feel for you?
Because you've covered it and you know the case really well,
and did you get much reaction from people?
Speaker 7 (22:16):
Yes, yes, certainly, Yeah, people have got in touch, and
I can't believe that that far. But so why isn't
there A lot of people have got into and said,
I've never heard of this, and I wonder why that's
so forgotten. Things are the war's moods or you're just
still there like that, But things like that shouldn't be forgot.
I should be remembered. Yeah, everybody should know. In that case,
(22:38):
it's just terrible.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Well let's go let's go around the table then and
ask Mike. I could probably guess yours are we going
to go Blackout Rapper?
Speaker 4 (22:45):
Here?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I am slightly obsessed with there. I really am obsessed
with it.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
I think that was one of the ones that I
knew nothing about, and when I started the walking tour,
I thought, I hope there's something juicy on these few streets,
and the Blackout Ripper was there, never heard of it,
And it's become an obsession. I think because he said
that he was not guilty. He went to his deathbed
having said nothing. He said he was innocent, and so
(23:10):
there's a lot of gaps.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
And so it's been.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
Five years now and I'm still researching his life, still
trying to find out more. I just want to know why,
why did he do what he was such abhorrent things
and how could he be so evil to one person
and then the minute afterwards be regarded as an utter gentleman.
I think that's going to stay with me forever because
(23:35):
he was an arsehoul, utter piece I was saying to Paul.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Paul was driving me up.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
The only thing I hate about the Blackout Ripper is
when I went back to do two episodes on his
earlier crimes potential crimes. I hated going back into his
head because in order to understand some of these monsters,
I think quite a lot of us do it that
we have to think as them and think about what
their perspective of how they see the world, and sometimes
(24:03):
it's horrible just to just to be in their shoes.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
That was cheerful, Thanks, Mike, So have the needs in case,
I suppose maybe for you. Slowly different though, isn't it
because it's interviewed, So what's the best interview that? What's
the one that you've come out of and gone.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Yes, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
I'm not sure that there was a few that there
have been a few comments, posts, emails and things from
individuals who have thought about joining a certain group, gone
to research them and found an episode about them online,
listened to my podcast and then said, I'm so thankful
that I found your show because I didn't join. And
(24:46):
in turn, people have come out and said that listening
to other survivor testimonies on my podcast has been the
catalyst for them to actually leave the group that they
were involved in, which is huge. But in terms of
episodes that stick with me the most, there was one
gentleman I interviewed called Kerry Noble who was a former
(25:10):
co leader of a group called the Covenant the Sword
in the Arm of the Lord, which turned from as
cults often do, a kind of intentional living commune styled
utopian group in a rural part of America, to a
(25:30):
very isolated, secluded, far right extremist, white supremacist, racist, homophobic
religious cult who ended up creating their own pipe bombs
and putting landmines in the ground around their home and
putting bombs in suitcases and leaving them in LGBT friendly churches.
(25:52):
And Kerry actually ended up serving time for the crimes
that he committed, and now he has written books and
tours around the world giving talks on how we can
improve ourselves as human beings. And he's actually a really
(26:12):
inspiring individual to speak to. And I think it's only
after hours and hours of listening to survive a testimony
and understand in the psychology of coercive control that you
can actually sit down and talk with Kerry and understand
that he's not a hideous human being because of the
things that he's done, which is really important to remember
(26:33):
but also difficult to juggle as well.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Oh, she you have quite a specific topic for your podcast.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
My podcast is a bit that troubles in Northern Ireland. Yeah,
and I think I put out about fifteen episodes or so,
and it was kind of not quite imposter syndrome, but
it was like I finally started to feel a bit
comfortable and I felt like I actually had the authority
to speak about this stuff because I've just been doing
so much research.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
So it was my first interview.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
It was with a man by the name of Richard
Moore and he was ten years old when he was
kind of looking at a British Army post beside his
school when a rubber bullet came out of nowhere and
got him right between the eyes and blinded him permanently, so.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
It didn't really let it affect him too much.
Speaker 5 (27:15):
You know, he was cycling bikes and trying to football
and everything. Again, a pretty good upbringing. But I was
really interested to be like, you know, Richard, how did
you manage to avoid turning into hate? Turning towards hate?
And he was like, well, of his parents, it's that simple.
So a couple of years later, his uncle was then
caught up in Bloody Sunday. He was killed in Bloody Sunday.
So he just vividly remembers when he was upstairs in
(27:36):
his room as a child and his brother was screaming.
He his brother was seventeen or eighteen, screaming at his mother.
They murdered my uncle. They blinded Richard. We have to
get them back, we have to essentially say joining the
IRA or something. And his parents were just firm they said, no,
we don't turn to hate, we don't turn to this.
And it was a really really powerful interview and it
(27:58):
just really stayed with me kind of. Richard has gone
on to have an amazing life, like he owns a
radio station, he has a charity in Africa. He doesn't
he just lives to share goodness and happiness, and though
his life has been so affected permanently, he never turned
in that direction. And he's almost like a lesson that
it doesn't necessarily hate, doesn't.
Speaker 8 (28:15):
Have to lead to more hate.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
And I think that was just really powerful for me.
I was literally in tears after the interview was a
very very intense interview. I don't think I'll ever match
it again. But he was just such a beautiful speaker,
you know, I don't think I had to do much
just talk gendy to him.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
I remember you telling us about that interview at Crean
Coin in London. We were talking about it and your
passion just there and when you were talking about it
before shows how much that interview meant to you. And yeah,
the content that goes with it is just incredible. He's
also a very tricky subject. We'll come back to that
in just a moment.
Speaker 6 (28:48):
However, every single one sticks with me because you live
them while you're researching with them, you are living them
for me, I suppose. And my two year anniversary one
I did Patricia Hessler and she was murdered by her
(29:11):
solicitor who was also her lover. But she just had
such just one failure after another failure to her, she
she wasn't doing it, and she clearly had become troubled
because of her life and kept making these wrong turns.
And it's so you so close to either becoming a
(29:34):
victim or being a perpetrate. The man he murdered her,
he never wanted to do that, and you could tell
that from reading his testimony. You could tell he never
ever wanted to of hair on her head. And it's
just because it's so close. So we were all very
very close to living in a completely different life. And
I don't know, maybe I see a little bit of
(29:55):
myself in her in that kind of because I have
that wild.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Tender see that she kind of had really no someone
get hi, Yeah, I have a tract to say, I'm good.
Oh yeah, three o'clock in the Afternoma Adam, you have
three hundred episodes to choose from. Which is the one
that sticks with you?
Speaker 8 (30:20):
But as you know, I don't tend to cover popular
cases because I just don't see the point and then
I can add any value to that. But the one
popular case, says Mike and Paul will know in Our
Lives show at the Moment, tickets still available sober the fourth.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
I'll like that you said, I'm going to edit this
before I talk before it's the case.
Speaker 8 (30:41):
And I always asked inside, who knows about Stuart Lobbert
and the audience one or two? And Michael barrymore the
body in the pool? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone knows
the Michael. And what fascinates me so much about it
is nine people went to the party, only eight came
out alive.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Eight people they know what happened this guy.
Speaker 8 (31:01):
When we first heard story, my first take on it, well,
he must have been gay. His parents weren't aware that
was wrong, and it's absolutely wrong, absolutely wrong. He was
great and he was murdered. And eight people there, they
know what happened and they're not telling. How can that
possibly be the case? How can no one being found
guilty of murder. It's an utter our rage. And his dad,
(31:22):
Terry would all have heard him on the TV, in
the radio. The guy just lived to find out what
happened to his son. Now he's died about finding justice,
and we're thinking of other high profile cases like the.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Mare's murder we mentioned earlier. You know, where the families
die without having justice. It's just not right.
Speaker 8 (31:37):
Is it something's wrong with our legal system that they
can't be brought to justice Like quiet.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
It's the one thing that always bothers me when we
do cases, no matter what it is, and no outcome
is worse than annoying the most horrific thing. And on
that note, I will turn to Ali because he knows
that the thing that annoys me most is no outcome,
and he keeps doing the bloody cases. I probably know
(32:04):
the answer to this question, but what's the favorite one
you've covered or we've covered for me? I don't like
the word favorite, because we're not glorifying the most interesting one.
Speaker 9 (32:17):
Interesting interesting one for me was the Dreadnought Hawks, which
we where Virginia Wolf and three of her Cambridge school
friends posed as the Abyssinian royal family in full dress
and full black face and snuck on to well, not
snuck on, but posing as the Abyssinian royal family, it
(32:37):
got a tour of the Royal Navy's new fairly secret
battleship and then went public with it afterwards.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
To shame the Royal Navy. It's a full gun salute, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
Did they invent their own?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (32:50):
That's what they couldn't speak Abyssinian, so every time they
were shown something impressive, they jumped up and down and
said bunga, bunga and then added some pig land. It's
a really good Doug Cotts. It's a great episode. That
was my favorite one to a research, and it was
also the one.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Where I knew you had continue doing this podcast.
Speaker 9 (33:10):
The one that affected me most was Jesse King, a
Glasswegian woman who adopted and killed children, and like Mike
was saying, sometimes we have to get into the mindset
of these people, and I found it inconceivable how somebody
could do this to begin with, but then learning what
a hard life she had had before that, and some
(33:33):
of the things that had happened to her illegitimate children
were of course illegal at the time, and she was
put in an asylum and treated with mercury for her depression.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
And it is a tragic story, and that one really
affected me.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
I think it's only after working in this space so
that you were able to develop that kind of insight
and compassion that you've just mentioned there around looking at
how she not the hideous crimes at the center, around
about how it got to that point in the first place,
and that's exactly the same when you're talking with COLT
(34:08):
survivors who have recruited other people into coercive environments or
have not gone to the police with reports of child
abuse and things like that. So I think that's that's
really important to mention, and then also to just ask
Bob what your most interesting case.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
I thought I was hoping we'd skip over this. Don't
press it though. The reason I laugh there is the
case that has always stuck with me is the Bland
trunk murders. Now I say murders, but there's only one
that we can prove was actually within the actual story,
(34:48):
there's bits and pieces. The reason I laugh there is
on our recording podcast equipment just now, I have the
please don't leave baggage equipment unattended or will blow up,
and I keep pressing it at the wrong time instead
of doing the outro music to Twisted. But it was
one of my most interesting readings because it is one
(35:09):
like your Blackout Ripper. There will be no end to that.
We have no idea the the scope and the width
of what actually happened there, or whether it was a
coincidence that several women's bodies turned up in trunks and
lockers at the same time. Having said that, the one
that affected me most, it was now nineteen eight percent
(35:31):
of the podcasts that that I did with Nadane or
that I do with Ali are all historical. We don't
like to do living memory podcasts cases because I just
I don't feel comfortable doing them. The one that we
did do was the breck bed in Oar case, where
it was groomed by essentially a peer of his online
(35:52):
before online gaming rooms were a thing, and it was
done via messaging boards. And it hit really home with
me because actually we grew up Ali and I both
grew up in a time where we gained a lot.
We're both still big gamers, and this really unfortunate soul
got sucked into a world that he should never have
(36:14):
been exposed to and was ended up horrifically murdered by
one of the nastiest men that ever walked this country.
And I'll leave it at that because it really upsets me.
I said, we'll come back to you in a second ocean,
and I don't want to come back to you specifically
because of the troubles what you're talking about. I just
(36:34):
noted Casey when you were talking you were really careful
about your words that you chose, that you specifically didn't
say cult. You kept saying group, and I wanted to
put it to the cult, sorry, the group that is here.
Are you really careful about what you say? Are you
really careful about the cases you pick and the words
that you choose to tell them? Is it something that
processes your mind when you're doing that.
Speaker 6 (36:58):
There were certain cases I wen't talk. There are certain
ones because like you, I don't like doing living memory
ones if I can help it. But there are certain
ones that I can't touch because I contact families if
I can, and I ask and sometimes they say no,
So I'll never do those ones. But there are certain
things that make me uncomfortable. If I know somebody could
(37:21):
possibly have parole and I would think of them like that,
that would put me off, just in my head, mainly
because I have a family stuff, and I don't think
anything actually would happen. But possibilities are always the thing.
And because of podcasts and stuff, you do become hyper
alert to what you do and what you say. And
there are certain words you wouldn't say. And I've been
(37:42):
pulled up on I think I was speaking to somebody earlier,
I had a comment from somebody who had listened to
the show but weren't a follower or anything, and they
were like, why did you say completed suicide instead of
committed and having to explain that. And it's just about
being respectful. I think everybody here certainly is just about
being as respectful as possible. So where it comes to whirling,
(38:04):
for me, that's.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
What it is.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
I think also knowledge as well. I find that sometimes
when I go through like call records or the police files,
I've worked out that I'm in a very privileged position.
I know more than the family knows it. And it's
a really fine line. Quite often families will get in
contact and will say what you wrote was bullshit, and
then I have to go through the whole process of saying, actually,
(38:29):
what you know is only a version of what you've
been told and it's not entirely true. And that's really
difficult to say to someone the person you loved and
the person who's no longer there, who can't fight for themselves,
now what you know about them is probably not true.
They may have lied to or they may have skipped
over some details, so it's difficult isn't it.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
I need to be very careful with the words that
I use, and it's a bit of a pain when
I'm writing, because you have to be it's such a
sensitive topic and what people in the UK would call
a terrorists what people in Northern Ireland might call a
freedom fighter, you know, So you and you never want
to convey bias. If I feel like if I convey biased,
then the integrity of the podcast is gone. So I
(39:12):
can't convey up bias. I have to be very careful
with the words that I use to try and just
I just keep imagining. It's a tight rope and I'm
trying to stay in the middle with even like assassinate
versus murder, killed versus you to be so careful with
the words that you use. Plus I have no idea
understanding of libel laws, so I try and stick with
try and stick with people who are you know, not
(39:32):
around anymore. I have no idea hard right by Jerry Adams.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Oh god, well, no idea. It was just wait a
few was s. It's a wonderful point to move on.
And I suppose we've been talking in your ears for
be well now and we'll come to a wrap up,
but I would like to post everybody one question before
we do. If you sat here now had never started
a podcast, but you know what you know now, would
(39:57):
you have started a podcast, would you start up podcast?
Speaker 8 (40:00):
Nodam, Yeah, I'd start a podcast because I know it's
a lot of work and sometimes when you're tired and
life happens, it's a bit of a pain. But look
at the guys were sitting with the people in the
room today. You know they've started off as people we
just knew of their podcasts. They become friends and it's
one of those things that when I started a podcast,
I thought, am I going to mean competition with other podcasters.
We've discussed this a lot here. We're not talking composition,
(40:23):
we share listeners. There's enough cake to go all round,
and I think it's a really nice community.
Speaker 6 (40:30):
I don't think I would ever give this up. There's
always gonna be a bit of me that would want
to do it anyway, So I would be doing this
either way.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
It's like what you were.
Speaker 6 (40:38):
Saying about the fact that we have a little community
here when we're not competitors and we can all kind
of lean on each other. There are times where we
cross over on cases and things like that. But we
all have different skills and we all create different shows
completely unique to us, and I think that's what's brilliant
about our community.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Well, unless you do the Murdo area of London. Still
that's been stare so so the time he's been sad.
I maybe when as it did the Blackout Rapper in
one episode. Yeah, USh, yeah, I'd say absolutely absolutely. I
can't like paint a picture awful, absolutely awful. But for me,
(41:16):
this is I've never felt such a sense of satisfaction
to essentially be a creative. Even if I'm writing a
very dense, murky piece, you're creating absolutely nothing.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
You're making something. And of course when you hear feedback,
it's it's it's wonderful. It's really wonderful when people reach out.
Rarely that they do, but when they do, it's it's
just so satisfying, you know.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Yeah, hitting the upload button after the ground of putting
an episode together is probably one of the most as
like a hit.
Speaker 10 (41:46):
On the old.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
You're probably the must you're the newest starter of us all.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I think I think I probably am.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Yeah. I I.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Really love podcasting. I really love the format that podcasting takes,
but I find that I love speaking with people. So
if it wasn't podcasting, I think maybe it would be journalism,
or maybe it would be working with survivors in an
(42:22):
expert recovery capacity.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
But I love podcasting and.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
I find the subject of cults and coercion fascinating. So
the fact that I'm able to merge those two things
together and then come to a place like Crime can't
where you would think that, you know, fifty podcasters all
working in the true crime space. As Adam and Chanteal
have mentioned, We're all carving out our own small space
(42:50):
within that space, and it really does feel it really
does feel wonderful. So yeah, I'm thankful every time I
get the opportunity to be to be at these events,
and then looking forward to going to see Adam and
Paul and Mike at their live show.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
We'll get it available off of those tickets in a minute,
don't you what? And Mike, would you would you start
a podcast now? Knowing what you and Neil?
Speaker 4 (43:15):
Absolutely, every single thing creative that I've done my life
has led to this moment.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Every time in my past is like.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
Writing different things, putting on different plays. My love of
recording audio and making little soundscapes. It's all led up
to this, so I I don't know what's coming next,
but this is this is like a cherry on the cake.
It's wonderful and as we've all said, even if even
if our podcast network collapse tomorrow, all of us in
(43:44):
this room would still be doing it, not making any money,
and still doing it because we love it.
Speaker 7 (43:50):
Well, yeah, there's nothing else I can add really that
the restaurant on the table have said, I certainly started
tomorrow again. Yeah, it's my passion. And as Casey said before,
you get that when you upload, you get that buzz,
don't you. I'm seeing some of the feedback about how
they touch people and in my own and said we're
(44:10):
looking at enough top Patreon now as well.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Army. It's absolutely wonderful thing experience. Could I convince you
to start another alley knowing what I know now?
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (44:23):
Absolutely, It's fantastically rewarding. It's one of the most rewarding
things I've ever done. But I certainly can't imagine doing
it by myself.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Or without you.
Speaker 10 (44:34):
Anna's because it's a This gives me a great opportunity
to thank him as well, because I certainly would never
have started a podcast without being pushed by Ball to
come and join him.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Is in a culture here, I wouldn't. I've had enough
of this ship and now I'm getting out. No, no
at all.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
I should have asked, actually, like how many podcasts do
you have in your mind? Like when you actually you know,
how do you stop podcasting once you've started?
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Because I happen a thousand?
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Oh yeah, they can't coming. I said, that was the
last question. I'm going to do this and I just
want one answer out of you, just a sentence or
a title. Alian and I did this during and any
Questions Answered session that we had our Facebook followers sending answers.
We were asked, if you had to start a podcast
now and it wasn't true crime, what would the title
(45:26):
of the show be.
Speaker 8 (45:29):
I Love the Kings of Leon, badly written porn, mister Big,
speaking of.
Speaker 4 (45:38):
In my street, take.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Shargon anony mouse poetry, and I would like to review
the same pint of tenants in every pub in Scotland.
So my pint, my time, and talking of time, we
are running out of it. I would like to thank
you guys for listening. As always, I would like to
Thank Adam Chantelle, Ohsin Casey, Mike Paul and Ali for
(46:08):
what you had no choice you were joining me anyway.
For joining us If you want to listen to our
voices again and why the hell would you not, You
can find the UK You Cry and Lady Justice podcast,
The Troubles, Cult, Vault, Murder, Mile, True Kund Enthusiasts and
Twisted Britain pretty much anywhere you find a podcast. If
you can't find it, google it,
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