Faith and Sexuality: The Impact of Conversion Therapy

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:22):
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for your support and your listenership. Now let's unlock the vault. Hello, Hello,
Hello listeners, and welcome back to another episode of the
Cult Fault Podcast. I'm your host, Casey, and today we

(01:46):
are finally going to have the opportunity to discuss something
that I'm asked about quite often, but don't really feel
in a place of deep enough knowledge to to answer
those questions when they arise. But I'm joined today by
somebody who is very qualified to answer some of those questions.

(02:07):
So hello, and welcome to the show. LEAs.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Hello, Hello, how are you.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
I have just finished reading your book that was published
in January, and I'm so excited to ask you all
about so much of that book. But I would like
to ask you to introduce yourself first to the listeners.
If that's okay.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, my name is Luke or Lucas Wilson, whichever you prefer.
It doesn't matter to me. Just don't call me late
for supper. I am a Trontonian from Canada. I am
a researcher and most of my research action in the
past was in literary criticism. I focus mostly on intergenerational
trauma as represented in literature, specifically in the context of

(02:51):
Holocaust survivors, their kids, and their grandkids. But I have
since in some ways transitioned and redirected my folks. Still,
of course that work is still important to me, but
I now mostly focus on white Christian nationalism, particularly in
the context of the US, and I look at white
Christian nationalists understandings of sexuality and gender and the ways

(03:13):
by which they target queers both gender and sexual gender
and sexual minorities, and how queers respond and how queers
are affected by the practices that attempt to change individual
sexual orientations, gender identities, and or expressions. And this is
particularly in the context of what most folks refer to

(03:35):
as conversion therapy, but more broadly conversion practices, which I
use the terms interchangeably, and I think a lot of
folks do, and it's really up to anyone how they
want to refer to these practices whatever they feel most
comfortable with. So that's typically what I do at this point.
I just had the book come out Shame Sex Attractions
Surrounder Stories of Conversion Therapy, which we're going to be

(03:56):
talking about today.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. There's so much John
Pack there. Christian nationalism. There's not really much to talk
about in terms of Christian nationalism in the world right now.
It's not really a hot topic.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
That's exactly. It sort of case closed and we covered it.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, that's it, it's done. It's the thing. It's the thing.
It's not really prevalent at the moment, which, of course,
unfortunately is extreme sarcasm because it's definitely a very poignant
thing right now. I don't usually get into politics too much.
Some listeners might say that that's sort of true. Help

(04:39):
hold reaccountable if if it's not true, But it kind
of in a nutshell, what would you say your thoughts
are around the current political climate in terms of gender
and sexuality in Christian nationalism.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
In one word, terrifying, you know, oftentimes queer rates are
the first on the table for in the first the
first that are up for debate when trying to negotiate
or sort of come to a compromise in other senses,
right that they'll say, we'll use you know, these rights
as sort of a pawn, and then you know, well

(05:16):
and in turn, you know, we'll be granted or given
some sort of you know, leeway or some sort of
you know, real estate in another context, whether it be
you know, economic or whatever. So I think that queers
are right now under sustained attack, sustained attack, right, and
I think specifically right right now, we're talking about gender minorities, right,

(05:38):
So gender queer folks, trans folks, non binary folks, and
also folks who have fun with gender and make fun
of gender, i e. Drag queens. These are folks who
are are particularly under attacked. Right And if we're thinking
of you know, to use an example of Tennessee, where
it's now illegal to wear clothing in public of the
opposite gender, and that of course is targeting in part,

(06:01):
or it's it's said to be targeting drag queens, but
of course that's also making illegal gender non conforming folks
and their ability to operate publicly and to be in
the public sphere because according to this law, they're doing
something that's unnatural. And so really, what we see right
now is that trans folks in particular, but again gender

(06:22):
not conforming folks, on binary folks and beyond, these are
the These are the these are the prince. This is
the principal target gender minorities. However, what we know, if
we've you know, if we take pay attention to history
at all, is that sexual minorities are right after that. Right,
so you know, even the attempts now to or like
the sort of planning stage, is to reverse same sex
marriage in the US. This is what's of course on

(06:44):
the table next. And so why Christian nationalism, right, this
idea that you know, it's this marriage of both a
political identity and also a Christian identity, typically Republican identity
in particular. Specifically, you know, this this marriage. What of
these two ideologies, theologies whatever, and I guess they're both

(07:05):
theology and ideologies, you know, mixed into one. That this
way of thinking, this way of being, precludes the possibility
of gender diversity and sexual diversity because according to this thinking,
you can only be a straight person and a CIS
person and operate, you know, in a healthy way, because otherwise,

(07:25):
if you are queer, this is a threat to the family.
This is which of course in their imagination and business
on imagination. You you know, this is this is the
building block of all society, is that as a nuclear family,
as cists straight nuclear family. And so if you are
to again threaten that, I just allowing we're forced to exist.

(07:47):
You know that this is considered a threat not just
to the family, but to the entire society. It's an
entire white Christian nation. And so this is really what
we're talking about when we're talking about white Christian nationalisms
and nationalists discussion and also targeting of gender and sexual minorities. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yeah, I was just thinking when you were talking then,
you know, if I went out as a white cys
gendered individual, if I went out dressed in my partner's
my male partner's clothes, you know, I don't think I'm
going to get picked up in Tennessee for you know,
breaking the law.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
I think around to something I think absolutely right, and
I think to have that sort of to be especially
with your partner, I think would be all the more
safeguarding you against any sort of you know, interaction or
you know threat from cops that there's no there's not
going to be an enforcement of that, because again, you're

(08:48):
not the target. If you are, you know, wearing a
suit jacket, if you're wearing I don't know, some like
baggy trousers, whatever, You're not the person who's the threat
to the family and ultimately to democracy. Why, because you
are already in assists heteronormative well from the outside at
least from their perspective marriage, and so I think that

(09:10):
for you you would be safe. Whereas you know, if
you're walking down the street and you're with one of
your friends who happens to be a gal, and you
two are walking and you're wearing whatever, all of a sudden,
that's a different you know, those are different optics that
looks different and as a result, might be something that
would offer a cop pause and then ultimately be the
reason for why you would you know, perhaps be questioned. Again,

(09:33):
I don't live in Tendency. I used to. Unfortunately it
was not a great place to live, and I'm very
glad not to live there anymore. However, at the time
that I did live there. I never encountered any of this,
why because the legislation was not in place, so I
don't actually know what the effects are and how that
is sort of these laws are deployed. My inkling is
that you know, in certain cases, in certain places within

(09:55):
that state, particularly outside of you know, perhaps Nashville and Memphis,
that there would be more enforcement of these you know,
ideas and lives.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Oh rash It's uh, yeah. It always fills me a
little bit with, don't I don't know if it's existential dread,
but these types of conversations, they can they fill me
a little bit with I want to say, at least angst.
It's at least a little bit of angst. It makes
sense rain, Yeah, it's It's just it's the It's like

(10:29):
what what Robert Daylifter would talk about. I suppose with
the dispensing of existence, you know, kind of dictating who
does and does not have the right to exist. And
that to me with two young children in the world,
wanting to teach them about love and equality and and
acceptance and you know, just all of the all of

(10:49):
the positive characteristics that you hope that your children will
grow up and thrive in it kind of adds that
extra area of angst just as somebody there. But you know,
it is an ally more so than symbody that is
in the LGBT community, which actually leads me into asking
you at the moment, what is the recognized acronym and

(11:15):
if if it is difficult for people like myself to
kind of keep up with the acronym as it changes,
what's there, is there a way to shorten it and
still be sensitive towards uh, you know, the demographic and
not offensive. I'm always trying to be sensitive, but it

(11:35):
changes a lot and it is hard to queue.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Of you know what, I think that the acronym has
never been all that stable in the sense that there's
like one sort of like acronym, you know, the way
I typically just say LGBTQ plus, which the plus sort
of covers other you know, sexual and gender minorities. However,
you know, those who are part of those who identify,

(11:58):
you know, along those lines, who are part of the
plus might say, hey, I feel like I'm not necessarily included,
and you know that's that's a little messed up. Well,
what I will say is that again, depending even on
your country, you're going to find a different acronym. Right,
in Canada, it's two s LGBTQ plus or two s
lgbtq I A plus because two S is is it

(12:19):
stands for two spirits, right, And in Canada we have
a you know, an indigenous, large indigenous community, and this
is one way of of acknowledging these folks existence and
recognizing them. So it does change on contents, It does change,
you know, in regards to place. What I typically say,
and again I think there would be pushed back against this.

(12:40):
I just typically say queer. It sort of covers everything
is you can be gender queer and you can be
you know, queer in the sense of of of sexual
identity and expression. And so for me, and again I
think that some people would say, well, that doesn't you know,
that's that's that's what's the word. It doesn't cover everything,
and you know you should use it, you know, the
entire acronym. But to be honest, I don't really encounter

(13:02):
many people who actually push back when the acronym is
used and used respectfully. I think that a lot of
people have nervousness that like, oh gosh, I'm gonna say
something wrong, I'm gonna mess it up, I'm gonna leave
someone out. But honestly, like most people don't say like
excuse me, like you should have said and add you
know whatever you know letter because I don't think that

(13:24):
people really, you know, care if it's done in good faith.
Rain So if you're doing in good faith, don't worry
about Oh.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
So, yeah, the is there. I suppose you can see
that the supports of intention is is there? Okay, Okay,
that's just that's good for me. I just wanted to
ask that question, like on a on a personal note.
But you are doctor Lucas Wilson. You you are a
You are a doctor. You are doctor Luke.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Believe it or not. I still sometimes question how did
this happen? No, I'm just give it.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
So talk us through your PhD then, because that's a
huge accomplishment. It's it's not often you meet somebody who
has successfully obtained a PhD, Like, what was the process
for you? How did you land on your research topic,
how did you get funding? How many years did it
take you? All of the all of the important stuff.

(14:17):
If anybody's considering taking that leap in academia.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
First of all, I'm super excited for this question because
no one ever asks me. Second of all, just one
piece of advice for anyone to go back to the
question before when when using the acronym, just say it slowly.
That's another thing. I think a lot of you look
at tripped up over LGBTQYA plus and they're like, oh
my gosh, like and then you sort of trip up
over it. You just say it slowly all as well,
you know what I mean, again in good faith and

(14:43):
say it slowly. Everything's good anyway, Moving back to your question.
So I and we'll talk more about this. I think
I did my undergrad at the world's largest vendel local university,
Liberty University, in Lynchburg, Virginia. There's so much to say
about Lynchberg, but we can talk about that later. And
also the name Lynchberg anyway, putting that aside, put up

(15:05):
in that for now. Jerry Fallwell. For anyone who's who
knows who Jerry Follwell is, this was his university. For
anyone who doesn't know who Jerry Fallwell is, cut your blessings,
but this is still his university. And so I went
there for my undergrad and I got, you know, a
scholarship blah blah blah. But I always say now, like,
in order to get a scholarship, you really should be
doing scholarship, and the work that I did at Liberty
University it cannot be defined as such. But again I digress.

(15:28):
So when I was at Liberty, I was I wanted
to become a high school teacher initially, and I've thought
to myself because I realized about halfway through that Liberty
was not seen by the outside world, by like the
general public positively, and I thought, well, gosh, like I
need to like beef up my resume my CD in

(15:48):
order to legitimize the degree that I got from Liberty,
I need to show people that it's a real degree.
Looking back, I don't know if I can define it
as such. Again, but again we'll get to that later.
So I decided I wanted to go to grad scho
and so I went to McMaster University for my MA,
and then I went to Vanderbilt University after that for
my master's in Theological Studies in their Dave School. And
I went to Vanderbilt really because I wanted to deepen

(16:09):
my understanding of faith and sexuality and the relationship between
the two, because as a gay man. I had been
made to believe for a very long time that one
could not be Christian and queer. Today I'm not a Christian. Today,
I'm not a person of a But at the time
this was a question that I had, and I really
was invested in these sorts of conversations. So I went
to Andy, and then I took a year off and

(16:31):
I taught for a year at this little liberal arts
university in Nashville, and then I applied for my PhD.
So when I was applying, I didn't so in the US,
and I was wanted to go to school in the US. Nowadays,
dear Lord, no, thank you, But at the time I
did want to live in the US and I wanted
to do school there, so I applied to I think
it was seven schools for my PhD, and in the

(16:53):
US at the time not it depends on the school now.
But you had to take the GRE which is this
like standardized test for grad school, which is absolute bs.
It measures absolutely nothing other than your ability to study
for a test, which is so much of the US
educational system, particularly from K to twelve. But it also
sort of bleeds into you know, getting into university for undergrad,
grad school, whatever. So I went to this conference and

(17:16):
I was like, it was this this, this literature conference.
And I presented my paper and it was well received,
and so I thought, well, you know what, I think
I'm going to apply for my PhD. You know, this year,
I was actually thinking about taking another year off and
then applying, but I was like, you know what tagged
with this. It was such a good presentation, it was
well received, I'm going to go apply. So I went
and called the gre Testing Center. I said, Hey, when's

(17:37):
the last possible day that I can take this test
in order to have enough time to study for it.
They said, and I kid you, not tomorrow. They said,
our only open vacancy for that, you know whatever, is tomorrow.
So I was like, perfect, this is awful news, and
I'm not going to take this test. I took the
test and I bombed it, bombed it like I did.
I think for math, I was in like the twentieth percentile,

(17:59):
which is like, even if I studied, probably wouldn't have
you know, gotten past that. But it was I did horribly.
And my my supervisor at Vanderbilt, I went and told
him I score and he said, Luke you're not going
to get in anywhere. And you know, for for those
inside the US, Vanderbilt I think is at the time
it was ranked like fifteenth in the country. It's like
it's a very good school. But I with bombing this gerry.

(18:22):
It didn't matter where I went to my for my master's.
It really mattered where I score on my gr to
even sort of like what they do typically as far
as I know, is that they'll they'll use the G
as a cutoff. So if you score below X percentile,
they're just going to throw your application out right off
the bat well. Of course they did that for my
applications because I did so poorly, and so my supervisors said,

(18:44):
you're you're not getting in anywhere. And sure enough, out
of the seven schools I applied to, I only got
into two. One that did not require the gr and
the other one that also that did require the G
but they just didn't care. And for whatever reason they
didn't care. That was that. So the other schools I
got rejected from. And typically what I say to folks
who are going into higher education for like their masters

(19:04):
of their PhDs, is you should never be paying for
grad school. There are some cases that yes, in certain
programs and whatever that will you'll pay a little bit
or maybe you'll pay a lot. It depends, but by
and large, I think don't pay for it. So these
schools both offered me scholarships. One was in Toronto and
one was in Boca Raton, Florida. And I was like,
there's no chance in hell I'm moving to Florida. But

(19:27):
so I was like, I'll go to the school in Canada,
which is I'm from Toronto. So I emailed them and
I said, hey, you know, I got this amount of
money from this other school in the US for like
an entrance scholarship. But I got all these you know,
entrance scholarships. I said, what can we talk about my
funding package? Spec Typically you can play schools off each
other if you make us. If you get a certain
amount here, you'd say, hey, I got it, and I'll

(19:48):
raise your scholarship over here. Whatever. Well, that school responded
and they said your funding information was in your acceptance
matter period. And I was like, oh wow, So I
guess I'm I'm just going to go to this school
because they gave me like nineteen thousand to live in Canada.
Live in Toronto is not possible. So I went to
this other school, and you know, throughout my time in school,
I was applying for scholarships and all this kind of

(20:08):
stuff to sort of beef up the amount that I
made and it worked. It was good, And yeah, I
think that for me. I never planned to move to Florida.
That was never part of the you know, my plan
or God's plan. But I did and the rest of
his history. And so I went and I actually fast
tracked my PhD. I really really loved my school. I

(20:31):
hated Florida. And so I went to my program director
about a year and a half in and I said, hey,
I love my I loved my program. I hate living here.
How do I get the heck out? And he said,
let me think about it. He came back to me.
He said, if you are too condensed two years and
to six months, we can get you out years early.

(20:52):
And I was like deal. So that resulted in me
reading about a book a day, and I wish that
was a joke, but it's actually true. It was, but
a book a day, sometimes an article on top of that,
and then also sitting in, sitting for and also studying
for my comprehensive exams, I'm writing and then defending my
prospectives all within six months, well in addition to three courses,
and it was just got awful, but it worked. I

(21:12):
got out and I moved back to Toronto and it
was happy. It was a happy ending after that.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Oh my gosh, wow, congratulations. That's such a huge effort.
Like I don't know if I would have the stamina
or even just the motivation to do that. That is incredible.
I even just doing a master's O for a year
that was stressful enough for me. And people keep saying,

(21:56):
will you go on to do a PhD? And I
say no, But then I also said after my bachelor's
that I would never do a master's. So I don't
know never say never, I suppose. But here you are now,
I'm I'm kind of I've I suppose I've done this backwards.
But I'm interested in learning more about your life leading

(22:17):
up to going to Liberty University. You said Lynchburg. Funny
that it's called Lynchburg, But I think it's also funny
that it's called Liberty University. There's a lot, there's a
lot to think about with the with the choice of terminology,
and I'm sure, it's not not by accident either, But
can you share a little bit about your early years

(22:40):
and experiences growing up in the evangelical space.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, you know what, and actually here for those who reviewing,
here's my family. But we were we weren't really an
evangelical family than there's like a thousand of us. I'm
the youngest of five kids. This is that. That was
actually our church board or in nineteen ninety three. Bye.
We we didn't really go to church the way that
most Christian families did, Like we would go on and off,

(23:08):
and it was largely because we had a cottage. Like
any good Canadian family, you go to the cottage on
the weekends and you don't go to church. And so
what we did we would, yeah, we would. We would
go to the cottage. And so the weeks that we
weren't at the cottage, we would go to church every
slopton up until about for me grade two or three,
then we just stopped going. So I didn't actually I

(23:30):
wasn't actually raised in the in the church. Thank god.
I certainly had exposure. I went to church, you know,
every so often, but even when we did go, it
was kind of like you went to church, you learned
whatever in you know, uh, the Sunday service, and then
in Sunday school and then also like the whatever junior
church upstairs, and then you'd come home and you'd shut
the hell up about Jesus, right, Like, we never talked

(23:51):
about God. My mom taught us our prayers at night,
taught us how to say grace, period, Like, we just
didn't talk about God. And like the times we did,
I still remember. It was like one time my dad
told my mom was so mad at him that she
was like, you believe in evolution, Well you had to
tell your children, and like so he told us, and
like that was like one of the few conversations so
we ever had about faith, right like it which just

(24:13):
wasn't a thing that we talked about. So I think
that I had. I was sort of haunted in the
way that my mom was haunted by her evangelical childhood.
I was haunted by, you know, the times that I
did actually go to church. So when I eventually got
to middle into going into high school, it was like
the summer between grade eight and grade nine, my brother
Quinn got really into the creation versus evolution debate and

(24:36):
so apparently, you know, what my dad believed that Quinn
was rejecting because he sided with you know, creationis I
And he's like, Luke, I've been like following these you know, conversations,
these debates and actually have a bunch of DVDs. He
brought all these like DVDs of this guy named doctor
kent Hoven, doctor Diano, who has like a doctorate from
a degree mill in the middle of like a flyoer
state and it's not in biology but whatever, I mean

(24:59):
it is. Actually this whose DVDs we want? I love
it because Fundy Fridays did this, did this episode of
their show one time and they did a deep dive
into ken Hoven and the way this dissertation starts. He goes, Hi,
my day's ken Hooven. It's like, that's the way about
no dissertation whatever it starts anyway, So we started watching
these DVDs and I was at the time, you know

(25:20):
again I'm a kid, and I thought it was kind
of neat the conversation because the way that ken Hoven
went about it was that he was very bombastic, right
like he almost he like ridiculed and mocked the evolution
as if it was this like stupid pseudoscience. And of
course the irony is that, you know, he believed in creation,
but he made it seem as if evolution was really

(25:43):
stupid and nonsensical and like it was only logical to
believe in, you know, a creator. So I started watching
this and I was like, wow, like I think I
agree with this. I believe this, And so I decided
that if I believed in a creator, it must be
the creator of you know, the world that I learned
about when I went to church way back when, again
sort of being haunted by my religious exposure, and I

(26:04):
went to the church and I honestly, I don't think
I missed a service or like youth group or any
event that I could possibly go to for like two years.
I was just obsessed, and I sort of, you know,
became this religious zalad at the age of you know, fourteen,
going into high school, public arts high school too, of
all places, was kind of seen as like, what the hell,
who's this like Christian kid in this you know, very

(26:26):
very secular if we want to use that term space,
And yeah, that's how that's how I got involved in
the church. It it wasn't really through my family though,
Again without my family wouldn't have happened. So it's sort
of a weird, you know, exposure relationship that I had
because of them.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
Did you drive your parents and siblings and school friends
crazy with your zealotry?

Speaker 2 (26:52):
You know what? Probably my dad. My dad was like
the coolest guy in the world. He died when I
was sixteen, but when I had him, he was the
coolest guy. He had a record store in downtown Toronto,
wrote a book on Bob Dylan, you know, had a
music studio on our basement, was eventually a social worker
for differently abled to folks, like he was just Keith
was cool, you know. He was a very like hippie dipputy.

(27:15):
We love Keith and so he was this hippnie dippity
like pot smoking vegetarian, like wonderful man, and so he
he thought it was weird for sure. But my dad
was like the coolest guy in the world. So even
if you know, you believe something crazy like evangelicalism, you know,
he was like, well whatever, like you're still my kid.
Love you, love you, love you, love you, period. And

(27:38):
so we would have conversations about that. When when when
I eventually got to that age and I remember I
said to my dad as a dad, I'm not listening
to any music unless it's Christian. And he's like, sounds
like you're closing an entire world off from yourself. That
is unnecessary. And I was like, well, I don't think
I should be listening Christian music because it's bad intuens
and he's like, I think a lot of music can

(27:59):
be good or but like, okay, you do you So
it didn't really drive my dad nuts, and I think
for my mom, she just loved it. She was like
so happy that I, you know, had become a Christian
or she I guess in her mind, I'd always been
a Christian. But I don't think I would have agreed
to that anyway. I still don't think i'd agree with that.
But my siblings thought it was super hello weird. They

(28:20):
were all like like what the like, what the hell
is wrong with you? Like just bizarre, And you know,
I believed a lot of crazy things, and my siblings
made it very clear that they thought it was crazy
that I thought what I thought and believed what I believed.
As for my school friends, and I think I drove
my teachers crazy because I would like write optional and
it wasn't optional in the sense that they gave us

(28:40):
the choice. It was that I would just write reports
for them saying this is why evolution shit's raw, or
this is why Christianity's true, and I would give it
to them because I was like fascinated with like these debates,
of these discussions, and they were just like, Okay, I'll
read this, but like what the like what the hell
is this? And so I think they were like, you're
a weirdo. But I did well in school, so it

(29:01):
didn't really matter. But like even on my exams, I
would right at the top of the exam, I don't
believe in any of this and I believe that Jesus
blah blah. But I would then do the exam and
like acid because I I would study for it. Whereas
my friends, I'm still good friends with a number of
my friends from my childhood, and thankfully I had great
friends and I still have great friends who have sort
of remained. And I think for them, they didn't they

(29:24):
I wasn't like, I wasn't an asshole per se. I
actually had a teacher who I ran into the street
years later and he said, Luke, he goes because I
said him as like, mister Way, and he's like, you
can call me Steve, and I was like, okay, Steven.
I was like, Steven, I'm sorry for being like such
an asshole in high school and he goes. He said, well,
I guess you were an assh goes, but you were
a very sweet asshole. He was like, you were so

(29:46):
nice about not you know, whatever you believed and blah
blah blah. And so I think for my friends, you know,
we were, it never really affected our relationship. If anything,
they just thought like, oh, Luke's Christian and he wants
us not to go to Hell, but he's not going
to be you know, talk. I didn't talk about it
all the time. I would talk that when when the
conversation came up. And I think that that allowed for
me to have friends, and in fact, weirdly enough, I

(30:07):
was like the prom king of my high school. Like
I was friends with everyone. So I guess it really
didn't affect Only a few people thought it was, you know,
they were vocal about how how weird they thought it was.
But otherwise I was just kind of pals with everyone
and it sort of worked. But I think even still
people probably obviously had their thoughts, they just didn't necessarily
voice them to me, and I didn't poiste mine to them.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
That's good though. I mean, I know through my interviews
and I'm sure you've had this experience a number of
times since kind of putting together Shame Sex Attraction, that
that is typically not the case with many, you know,
queer people growing up in religious spaces. And I don't
know if the differences the familial kind of tie to

(30:55):
church services or faith based settings. So it's it's kind
of refreshing in a really kind of heartening way to
hear that your experience was not it kind of the
same as that, but as somebody who is focusing on

(31:19):
gender and sexuality and somebody who you know is the
author of shame sex Attraction. Do you remember kind of
realizing that you were attracted to the same sex. Do
you remember kind of having that conflict between your faith
telling you one thing and your kind of body brain

(31:40):
telling you something else.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, I mean I remember being attracted to guys from
a very early age. I I think that for me,
it was I recognized it for a very long time,
and then by the time I got to high school,
by the time I, you know, accepted Jesus my savior.
That's when I was able to do the mental gymnastics

(32:06):
of saying, I'm not gay. I just struggle with same
sex attraction, right, So divorcing the identity for three individuals,
which again, looking back, you're like, oh the hell was
that possible? But it was. I, honestly, in my heart
of hearts, believed that I was not gay. I just
thought that I struggled with being attractioned to men. And
that makes absolutely no sense now, but at the time

(32:28):
it absolutely made sense to me. Again, it wasn't where
I didn't recognize that I was attracted to men. I knew.
I mean I knew very clearly, and it was like
the biggest thing that I would think about. It was
the you know, the what number one thing I would
like pray about. I was just like, God, please let
me like stop finding men attractive. Please let me like
just find women attractive by at least one woman. I
don't care if she is, just let me find you attraction.

(32:49):
And so it was this constant recognition because it was
made to be the thing that held me back from
from God the most right because of course, within the
evangelical imagination. Against emphasis on imagination, homosexuality is framed as
one of the worst sins, you know, alongside like beast

(33:09):
charity and pedophilia. It's super cute, right, And so when
you have that sort of understanding that, like homosexuality is
so bad, I think you're able to really compartmentalize and
really very even though it wasn't very very you know,
deep in the ground. It was sort of surface level,
but you're really able to to say, this isn't real,

(33:30):
this is a real this isn't real, this isn't me,
because if it is you, well, dear Lord, something's really
messed up with you, right. And so for me, I
think I was able to do those perform those mental
gymnastics because it allowed me to believe that I wasn't
completely and totally depraved, even though within you know, the
Christian tradition inherent to that theology is the belief that

(33:50):
we are you know, deeply depraved, right, Like total depravity
is sort of the Calvinist doctrine, right, And so I
think that for me I had to put on like
I had to, I had to be wilfully ignorant, and
that was necessary in order to function within that religious tradition,
because again, one cannot be queer one and a Christian

(34:12):
at the same time, according to this thinking, and so
if that's the case, God's always going to win. So
you put whatever is that you're you know, stumbling black,
you're the throning your side, any sort of issue that
prevents that relationship between you and God, you push that
as far away from as possible, and that includes sort
of mentally you say that this isn't real, and this
isn't real, this isn't real. That's something that I just
struggle with, not just who I am.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Do you feel like that that kind of cognitive dissonance
really pushed you into making the decision to go to
somebody like Liberty University, you know, kind of like digging
your heels into the ground and say, well, I'm just
going to go to every length to try and kind
of fix whatever whatever's happening.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
I think that's even why I got involved in the
church in the first place, not necessarily consciously, right, because
these aren't things that typically, you know, you're thinking like, oh,
like I'm going to do this in order to like
avoid this. But I think that for me, Christianity offered
me a cover. It gave me a sense of well, again,
if I can't, I can't be gay and Christian at
the same time. So therefore I'm not gay anymore. And

(35:17):
so you know, I think the church in general offered
me this cover, or at least in my estimation, I
thought I was cut fool in a lot of people.
No one was fooled except for my mom. And even then,
I'm like, I don't believe that you really didn't know.
I watched a lot of HGTV sharel but she, she
apparently was surprised when I came out, So I mean,
putting out the side. I think that Libert, You're absolutely right,
like it was the next step. And I think this

(35:39):
this is two things. It's both a cover for being
queer and saying like I'm really gonna do like if
it like good old college, try in this place, literally
the college, try to become straight. But also I think
it also feeds into sort of a queer trope, which
is always being the best in everything. So in like Paul,

(35:59):
you know, Paul's like, I'm like the you know, the
Jew of Jews. I'm you know, sort of like this
like amazing person. I'm like, you know the best and
eventually like the best pressure out there. Paul was very humble,
but I think for me it was like all these accolades,
like always performing the best as I possibly could, being
the best in everything. Right, I'm doing like the best
in school, you know, being sort of the funny person whatever,

(36:22):
in you know, with my friends whenever, I think, always
try to be the best. That's a very queer thing,
always trying to sort of like be the best, to
prove yourself and in some cases to cover over the
fact that you're queer and say or that I'm normal
just like everyone else. And I think all of this
sort of plays together as to why I got involved
in the church, why I went to liberty, and why
I went to conversion therapy. I think all of it
was so that I could be the best that I

(36:43):
could be, be the best Christian first and foremost. But
then you know, part of that is also just being
a good person well in their estimation. But again I
don't think I would say that now the Christians are
necessarily you know, the byword of morality or ethics, but
at the time I did, and that's I think that
all these sort of motivations came together and and prompting

(37:08):
me to actually potentually go to Liberty.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Or Yeah, I've heard some pretty scary stories about these
types of universities. I don't know if you've sat down
to talk with Andrew Pledger about his experiences the is
it a Bob Jones University? I know that he also

(37:36):
has his own stories of conversion therapy which are very unsettling.
But I don't know how closely your situations mirror each
other's or how different Bob Jones University would be to
Liberty University. But I believe they were both owned by
pretty well known individuals in of like the nationalist space,

(38:02):
so to speak.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah, you know what Bob Jones waspenting. When we were
at Liberty, we always said like, well, at least we're
not Bob Jones, Like that was sort of like what
we understood to be like even more respective and even
more sort of you know, legalistic and Bob Jones. Andrew's
great I Love Andrea was on his podcast years ago,

(38:24):
and he's just a very very smart, smart guy, has
a lot of really intelligent insight into queerness, but also
into Bob Jones of course, and doing the podcast that
he does is just great and so. But but Bob Jones, yeah,
it was. It was founded by I mean, both schools
were founded by fundamentalists, separatists. Eventually, Jerry Fallwell, the founder

(38:44):
of my university, went on and became more evangelical and
identified as an evangelical, even though for years he pushed
against that label. Bob Jones has always sort of remained
this like fundamentalist in a many ways, separatist institution and
so both are terrifying in their own ways. But they

(39:05):
certainly do rhyme, right, think they're very similar in many
ways as well. Although they do diverge in certain senses,
they also converge perhaps more than they do, uh, you know,
diverge right.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
Right, Okay, And in terms of your university experience or
maybe this happened before. Did you come across somebody else
who had same sex attraction and did you try to
like a set the restrain and say that's not how
you be a good Christian? Like I'm just interested in
those initial experiences of brushing up against other queer people.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, so part of being queer in these spaces is
so bizarre because some like I mean, when the flesh
is weak you're excited to meet another queer, when when
the person you meet who is queer is not someone
who you're attracted to, well, then again there's sort of
a different sort of approach, and that is and it's
horrible because this is this is how the church, how

(40:03):
were evangelicalism, How these institutions force individuals to I what's
the word, into inauthentic community and also inauthentic understandings on themselves,
and it is, it's it's it's an environment where, for instance,
there were a few people I knew who I knew
work were like you talk to them and you're like,
immediately like your gay ar goes off. And I tried

(40:24):
to remain as far away from these people as possible
because I've thought, if I associate myself myself with them,
other people are going to think that I'm queer too. Meanwhile,
it's like everyone already knew even without me being around them,
but you know, they were. I thought like if I'm
if I'm friends with him, they're gonna see me with
him around campus and be like, ah, another faggot. And
I was like, I don't want that, And so I

(40:45):
always would would remain as distant as possible, and in
some cases I was kind of mean to some of them,
which was awful, and looking back, I feel horrible about it,
not like you know, like a high school bully or anything,
but like I just didn't know. I kind of made
it clear that I didn't want to be around them,
and they probably were like, well, I've given you no
good reason. And I wouldn't give a reason because I

(41:06):
didn't want to, of course voice the fact that oh,
I'm also gay like you, and so it created a
lot of distance, It created a lot of you know, animosity,
It created like you've just created the conditions that allowed
for me to remain by myself and isolate myself from
other queers in a lot of ways. Now, there were

(41:26):
times that I did find other queers who I wanted
to be around. And the first one I think of
is actually how I eventually got into conversion therapy. Was
my spiritual life director on my on my residence hall
and we're talking about shame sex's attraction today, But I think,
why reference you know the next book I'm working on later,
but and the story I'm about to tell you in

(41:47):
many ways is the story I tell in the next collection.
So to give a little bit of a teaser, and
so I was, you know, my spiritual life director came
to me, I'll give you a really abbreviated version, and
he sort of made it known are you kind of flirty?
And I didn't at that point have any experience with flirting,
Like I didn't know how to do it. I didn't
know what. I couldn't really say like, oh, that's flirting.

(42:08):
I would just be kind of like, am I picking
up on what I think I'm picking up on? Like
you're not really clear as to what exactly you know,
the person saying when they're saying certain things, and like
is there another meaning to what they're saying? Are they flirting?
In other words? And so he was like we should
hang out, so we hunt out and then it was
like a very very bizarre like romantic encounter, if we

(42:30):
can call it that. And because of that, and again,
I detell the whole story in the next I've been
working on the story actually recently for the past month,
and that we're telling I just started, you know, again,
explain how sort of we made this, Like Dan, there
was a dance essentially of like are we attracted to
each other? Are you also like me, and then sort

(42:51):
of like ah, like yes I am, and then getting
ourselves over to the you know, the the unnatural flesh,
and then eventually feeling really horrible about it, which again
for me is what we're abad toar grab therapy.

Speaker 1 (43:03):
So that makes me think about you know, like when
you see college drama performances where they get really close
face to face and then they turn around and they say, no,
we can't do this.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
This was this was literally like by the end of it,
it was like we were laying on the same pillow
and his face was here, my face was here, and
then he inched forward, and then I inched forward, and
then he inched forward and then I It was literally
exactly it was like a movie looking back, and that's
how we kissed. And we were pretending to be asleep,
right but of course like moving as we're sleeping.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Wait, wait, god, this is such between age romance.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Oh my gosh, it turns out to be a very
sour romance. But putting that aside. So so that was
certainly one example of like where I found another queer
and like there was some sort of interaction which again
did not end well. But then there was another one
I think of the answer your question. You know, there
was one guy. I was a prayer leader. So I
had like a group of like five or six guys

(43:59):
who I was in charge of, like leading Bible study,
praying with blah blah blah. And so we would have
these weekly meetings. One guy, he was this gay missionary kid,
and he very much was like, I'm gay. I don't
think it's right, but I am. And here we are.
So he and I would talk about this all the time.
I never once divulged that I was gay. He even
said that all the gays on campus just thought I
was Canadian, not gay, and I was like, what does

(44:20):
that mean? But okay, And so he and I would
talk about all of his sort of encounters, and again
it was it was creating this really inauthentic community, this
in authentic relationship where again I couldn't even voice to him,
I'm just like you, because I had to uphold this
air that I was, you know, a spiritual religious sort

(44:41):
of like good Christian, and I therefore didn't tell him
anything about myself. And so I think, like, this is
how these sorts of institutions create like like secrecy and
force individuals to lie. Yeah, And it's just it does
not create like an authentic relationship. It really precludes that
and forces people into like queer subterfusion, also into like

(45:04):
of holding artifice.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah. Absolutely. And some of the people I've spoken to
who you know are queer and have left high control
religious groups and cults often talk about knowing other queer
people in the cult that married and had a family
and you know, are still living that inauthentic life. And
I think to myself, how what what? How heartbreaking to

(45:32):
know that they'll never fully experience life. You know, they
have a life, but it's not like the life that
they could have if they were allowed to really just
experience all the things that you know, their their body
and brain wants them to authentically experience. And I think

(45:53):
that's just a really sad thought, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
I have no, it's absolutely said. It's absolutely tragic. And
I think about after I had that weird one night
stand with my spiritual life director from my dorm, I
didn't have anyone on campus to talk to you. I
didn't have anyone in general to talk to you. I
didn't tell anyone because again, it's not like street cred
to say hey, I'm gay on a campus like Liberty University,

(46:17):
so I, you know, internalized everything. I would go and
like cry in the parking lot at night and like
just feel sad and whatever. And one time my friend
he at my work. I was a switchboard operator, so
if you called the university of president or you got me,
and so in other words, I didn't do anything until
someone called me. So I was allowed to have friends
over at my work. So I would invite my friends

(46:38):
to come to work and we would do homework together
and just hang out. So I had my one friend
and he came over and we were sitting there doing homework,
and he knew that something was wrong. He knew that
something had happened between me and my spiritual life director,
but I didn't want to explain what and he's like,
come on, Luke, just tell me what's going on. Like
we're friends, like you know, you can tell me anything.
And of course evangelicals want you to tell everything right away,
and like all your secrets up. Fred. So I said, well,

(46:59):
I I don't really think I can. I think if
you if you knew what you know happened, you wouldn't
want to be friends with me. I said, However, I
did write a poem, so I wrote, I read him
this poem, and the poem was called you ever noticed
how cold it gets in the fall. So the poem

(47:20):
was about you know, me having you know, this weird
twist with with my my spiritual lift director. And so
after I read the poem, whenever he and I would
talk about anything sexual activist, and I started to pick
up on this, you know, after this conversation was his
his lips would start quivering the way that my grandma's
lips always quivered whenever we talked whenever she talked in general,
but his would quiver whenever we talked about anything sexual.
So he had sort of these like like funny lips

(47:42):
whenever we would talk about anything sexual. And again I
picked up on this later, but I do remember his
lips were quivering because I was kind of like, oh,
that looks like Nana's lips. Anyway, he said, I think
I know what what you're talking about. And I was like,
you mean, like what my poem's about, and he's like, yeah,
I think I know. And I was like, oh, she
Like he figured me out. And so I said, well,
what do you think it's about? And he said, well,

(48:03):
I don't want to guess him be wrong. I said,
well why not, he said, because I struggled with the
same thing. And the moment he said struggle, I was like,
dog whistle, He's just like me and I and sort
of we came out to each other. I struggle with
the same sex direction. I struggled with the same sex director.
We you know, I sort of confessed and he and I,
I told, you know, talked about how were both attracted
to men, and he asked me I still remember, he said,

(48:26):
have you ever been attracted to a woman? And I lied.
I was like, m I'm bisexual. No, I'm not. If
you ever watched The Office and like there's that scene
where Kelly she says to Ryan, she goes, I'm pregnant,
and then the next scene it's like hurd the confessional
and she goes, just no, I'm not. That was me.
I was like, I'm bisexual anyway. So I said to

(48:46):
him as bisex, I said about you, have you ever
been attracted to a woman? He said, no, never, four
maybe five, four or five years later he was married
to our friend and then they eventually had two children together.
Thank god, he's now out of the closet. They have
since amicably separated, and he's living a big old gay
lifestyle that we were all worried about. Now. However, it

(49:08):
took a marriage, children and beyond and a lot of
you know, emotional labored to come to the conclusion that
he's not actually strength. He doesn't want that. So it's
it is tragic. And this is one example of many
that you know that you know, we can.

Speaker 3 (49:21):
See, well, he's living his big gay lifestyle now, but

(49:45):
there's like the chance that he never would have.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
Made that that change and just lived that kind of
and that's not fair on anybody in that situation. You know,
he doesn't get to live his wife, doesn't get to
experience true connection and and intimacy with sybody in the
way that she should, you know, get to explore and
feel that that kind of you know, mutual attraction and love.

(50:11):
It's just really sad for everybody. And yeah, it's it's
heartbreaking to think about all the people that will just
live that whole life and never and never make that change.
But good for your friend, because I don't know if
it's just the stereotype, but the big gay life looks
really fun. For the most part, apart from you know,

(50:32):
when you're worried about having all of your rights stripped
away from you and all of the deep dark stuff
and the big hurdles you've had to overcome, you know,
as a community in order to be allowed the right
to exist, to marry, and you know, or all of
those other things that have changed over the years. But
the thing that stood out to me most when I

(50:53):
read Shame Sex Attraction, which, by the way, what a
strong book title. That is like unchallenged. I don't know
how you're going to follow that up with book two,
because Shame Sex Attraction. When I heard that, I was like,
turn out of ten, what a stellar book title.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
We love a pun like I'm a cheap date for
a pun. So the moment that I it was it
was one of those like shower moments. You're just you're like,
you know, having a shower, thinking that's where all my
good ideas come from. Never when I'm sitting it from
my laptops, that's all just a bunch of stuff that
I have to edit later. But you know, when you're
in the shower and you're thinking, all of a sudden,
it was like shit, like same sex attraction, same sex attraction,
and that was sort of this like light bulb moment.

(51:33):
The next collection on which we'll talk about later, which
is the collection about queer experiences at Christian colleges and
the universities and seminaries. It's called Don't Ask Tell All,
So it's you know, it does its function, but it's not.
It's no shame sex attraction and I acknowledge that, but
and it's like, what is it like story queer stories
of Christian colleges, anti queer regimes, something like this, So
to bring in like the military sort of like you know,

(51:54):
imagery pretty queer regimes.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Wow, that's strong.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Yeah, So that's that's the next one. I have another
one that i'm a title that I'm sitting on and
it is I think the best one. And I can't
reveal that because I never wanted to be stolen and
I think it's literally like my my afterwards, I will
well done done. And that's that's the title that I
cannot wait to release. And I swear to God if

(52:19):
if someone else comes up at first or like publishers first,
with that name, I'll be I'll be you know, what's
the word mortarfed I'll be dead, I'll be in the ground,
like just kill me now. So you know, please please
don't steal it, even though you don't know what it is.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
The common themes in shame sect attraction. So it's kind
of like an anthology, isn't it. It's a it's a
combination of different people's experiences with conversion therapy and the
it was a it was a hard read, as you
can imagine. It was making me think of all sorts
of different things that I've learned about over the course

(52:56):
of this podcast, around the trouble team industry, around you know,
religious groups that do exorcisms and lay hands on and
have charismatic services.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
You know.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
It was making me think of all all different types
of things. But the themes that stuck out to me most
throughout every single chapter and each story, of course, was
the shame, the shame element of it, you know, and
a kind of title speaks to that so well. But
just the degradation of human life. Everybody in those stories

(53:35):
was so degraded it was it shouldn't even be. I mean,
I don't know what the legal status is of conversion therapy,
and I'm sure you can answer that for us. But
the degradation making people feel unworthy and unlovable was just
so so prolific, and the main result, or the main

(54:02):
conclusion for most people in these stories was just to
take their own lives because there was no other way
forward for them in so many of these stories. I mean,
that must have been such a tough book for you
to put together, to listen to all of these stories
and know that it's still happening. People are still going
through these processes, and these these people with their strength

(54:23):
to reclaim their stories, have had these experiences which probably
resonate with you as well and your story.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Yeah, thinking of like themes that run through the collection,
your absolute shame, degradation, self hatred, you know, guilt, anxiety,
all these you know, negative emotions or affects that folks feel.
I think about the twisted hope, where like the one
theory refers to as cruel optimism, right that you're made
to believe that you can you can change, and of

(54:54):
course when you don't change and reality sets in that
nothing's you know, different from when you started till now,
when you were fasting or when you were praying or
reading your Bible or doing you know whatever, exercises that
you were instructed to do. When nothing changes, you think
to yourself, well, wait a second, you know, nothing's different,
nothing's changing. And if I believe that God is good

(55:15):
and God wants me to change, because typically not always,
but and as the story you know, gives voice to this,
typically this is happening in religious communities, not always, but
disproportionally the number of conversion therapy and or cases are
happening in religious context as opposed to secular context. So
they do happen in secular context, but again disproportionally, they're
going to be happening in religious context. So for a

(55:36):
lot of the folks who are you know, theistic right,
if they're Christian, they're Jewish, but there Muslim, if they're whatever,
they believe that God is perfect, God is good, and
God wants them to change. So if God wants them
to change and they're not changing, the problem is not
God because God's perfect. Therefore, the only conclusion is that
you're the problem. And of course when you see yourself
as a problem, that's a problem. And so you know,

(55:57):
you're given this twisted hope again, this this cruel optimism
that you can change. And when that doesn't happen, the
frustration and the self obligation and the self you know
hatred really right, all of this sort of starts snowballing,
and it's it's so insidious because again it's like this
this journey that from the very inception of the journey

(56:18):
to become straight, it's impossible, but you're made to believe
that it is possible with God. With God, all things
are possible, right to quote scripture. And when that doesn't happen,
you turn on yourself. That's where the guilt turns into
the shame, right, That's where the shame turns into salt hatred.
That's where you know, feelings of wanting to you know,
complete suicide and suicidal ideation. This is where they come from.
And it makes sense, right in a twisted, bizarre, upside

(56:42):
down evangelical way. And so I think that these are
This is also part of what really defines a lot
of the stories is that folks were made to believe
that they could change, and when they didn't change, all
of these negative consequences sort of ensue.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Was that your personal experience as well when you were
put through conversion therapy?

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yeah, so I went I went through conversion therapy you
know again at Liberty University for four years with this
man who was a paid university staff member. He was
tasked with working with two groups of students, those who
were addicted to homosexuality and those were addicted to port
as research suggests you can't be addicted to either. But
but I got aside, research isn't necessarily you know, their
meddle name, despite being a university. So for me, I was,

(57:30):
you know, I went through the four years with Dane.
I went into the group conversion therapy program only once,
which is what I write about in the book. But
the individual program that was the four years that I
did it, and that's actually what again, what I'm writing
about for the next collection. And so when I left,
I went to grad school. I went to McMaster back
in my province, my native province of Ontario, and it

(57:51):
was there I still remember it was. I was living
in the split level apartment, half you know, in the basement,
half above, and I was in my kitchen. It was
just the light on. I was washing the dishes from
you know, dinner, and I was about to go visit
my buddy at the pub, and I remember I was
standing there and I was just talking to God or
what I believed to be God at the time, and
I was like, God, what the fuck, Like I have tried,

(58:11):
and I've tried, and I've tried, right, And I thought
to myself, like I went and met with pastor gay
because at the time, I didn't conceptualize it as conversion therapy.
I just thought of it as I met with this pastor.
As like I met with this pastor. I read my Bible,
I fasted. If you count the number of weeks that
I did not eat, I would do a week at
a time where I wouldn't eat. If you count all
those up, it would have been months that I just

(58:32):
did not eat food in the hopes that this spiritual
exercise of fasting would allow me clarity and a greater
you know, sort of like a better relationship with God.
And you know that again that I could like make
my weight out of homosexuality by way of fasting in part,
and I was just like, what the fun, Like I
had done everything that I could do in order to change,

(58:54):
and nothing's changing, right, And that's where again for me,
that's why the violence of conversion therapy really set in.
That I, after the fact realized nothing was changing. And
the moment, I always thought that I was doing the
right thing, I was on the right path, that God
was going to honor this, and it was this process.
But once I got away from that that bubble, the
liberty bubble, and outside of that sort of you know,

(59:15):
sacred canopy, and I was thrown into the real world,
especially when I was learning like actual academic I was
an actual university. You know, That's where I started like
that that cosmology started to crumble, That's where that worldview
started to have all these holes and I was realizing,
you know, this isn't working. And again, even though it

(59:37):
was the world was crumbling around me. In the best
word possible, I'm so thankful that that world crumbled. It
was still incredibly difficult at the time because again I
still had my at least one foot in that world
and believed that God was perfect, and if God's perfect,
I'm the problem, not God, and therefore I need to like,
something's messed up with me. I'm I'm messed up. I'm

(01:00:00):
I'm detective, but I'm never going to change to what
I should be and I can never be a part
of the world that I want to be. A part
of simply because I don't need the definitional requirements of
that religious system that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Is so difficult. Oh my gosh, that that mental battle
that you it must have been. It must be absolutely
exhausting just to kind of be like whiplash, isn't it?
Back and forth and back and forth and never really
being able to settle on anything one hundred percent until
eventually you do, of course. Just how tiring that must

(01:00:34):
have been, and how tiring it must be for all
people in those situations that have to I don't I
don't want to call it. I don't want to call
it lying to themselves or to deceiving themselves or you know,
I think all of the terminology around it's still kind
of it's still kind of like shameful language, like oh,

(01:00:57):
you're lying or you're being dishonest. Do you know what
I mean? There's not really any good I don't know
if you know of any good terminology that's empowering rather
than I mean, I guess people are trying to keep
themselves safe more than anything by by hiding. Yeah, hiding again.
Oh my gosh. It's tough.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
But you know what, but you know what, I think
that the finger isn't pointed at the individual who was hiding,
who is self deceiving, who was lying. It's pointed at
the cause of this, which is the church in my context, right,
it's pointing at the university Liberty University. It's pointing at
the people who made me think this, right, who made
me believe this, because again, no one wakes up at

(01:01:35):
the morning it's like, huh, I want to change something
that I can't change, right, Like it was clear that
nothing could change. But again, you have to believe, and
you're made to believe. Really more accurately, you're made to
believe in the passive voice, the actor of not being
yourself but someone else acting upon you. You know, you're
made to believe that you need to hide, that you
need to lie, that you need to self deceive, and

(01:01:57):
you're pushed to do that because if you don't, well,
then you're not going to be a part of the community.
So I actually think it's a okay to use that language,
because again, the blame is not placed on the individual
who has to perform these mental gymnastics in this emotional labor.
It is instead placed upon the religious system that requires
this of it's you know, congregates, it's you know, students,

(01:02:19):
it's whatever, it's it's an assurance, right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. But what I wanted to ask you,
and I don't know if you feel comfortable talking about this.
It's it's a question I get asked a lot. It's
a question I imagine you get asked a lot. The extreme,
the extreme, the extremity around the transgender discussion at the

(01:02:43):
moment is insane. You've got like one end of the
spectrum people saying transgender people don't have the right to exist.
But then on the other end of that spectrum you've
got the other extreme, which is trans people saying that
people that are anti trans starting to have the right
to exist. I don't know how you see it or
how you've experienced it with you know, people that are

(01:03:07):
in your community. It's just when people say, well, what
do you think about transgender I think everybody has the
right to exist as long as you you know, and
to love who they want, especially themselves, as long as
it's consensual and it's legal. But then, you know, and
legal in the sense that it's not an adult with
a child, you know, for example, not legal. Illegal in

(01:03:29):
the sense that you know, they're going to actually strip
away human rights laws. It's just a really trigger and
I skirt around it. And I don't like to really
skirt around things because I know how I feel about
it and I know where I stand, but it's hard
to know how to really get my thoughts and opinions

(01:03:50):
across in such a heated, like such a heated, difficult
and loaded discussion right now.

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Yeah, So the first like fact of the matter is
that trans people exist, right that no matter what we say,
no matter what we want, no matter what we do,
trans people always will exist. And that is you know,
there are people trans people who do not conform and
do not identify with their sex assigned at birth. They

(01:04:19):
don't in the general roles that come with it, right,
And so you know, again, to me, it's just sort
of mind boggling that it's even a discussion because this
doesn't have any bearing on literally anyone except for the
person the trans folks, right, yes, you know what.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
I mean, coming my life or me in any way.
And people will be like, well, what about if you
have a trans person come into your public bathroom? And
I'm like, I don't know if that's ever happened, and
if it has. Obviously I wasn't unsafe because I don't
even know that it happened. Like it's so tough, Luke,
Oh my.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Gosh, well this is it. And it's like, if you
think about like the number of like cases of people
who are like going into bathrooms and like sexually assaulting,
physically assaulting or whatever assaulting someone, it's not trans people.
It's also like when you talk about like pedophilia and
looking at the grooming of children and looking at like
sexual abuse of children. Every single gd day you see

(01:05:15):
a pastor, you see a Christian youth worker, you see
a Christian teacher coming out or not coming out. They're
not coming out. They've been found, they've been caught doing
what they're doing. You don't see this in the in
the numbers that you see with people who are queer,
whether it be gender or sexual minorities. You just don't.
And yet we have been historically identified with and associated

(01:05:37):
with pedophilia, abuse, sexual assault, all this kind of stuff.
Because again, I think it's just this unbelievable level of
projection that sexual anxieties that are happening within Christian context
and not just Catholic but also Protestant again, look at
the news, look at the number of cases that are
put onto queer people, and it's like, I think it

(01:05:58):
really is just that a number of Christians are saying, like, ah,
I see that this is happening in my community, and
it's happening at the hands of straight CIS people, and
we're going to project that onto queers as a way
of really again demonizing them and covering over the fact
that this is all happening over here. It's like the
drag queen. Gosh, don't tell any queer person. I don't
remember the drag queen's name anyway, I can't think of it.

(01:06:21):
Don't don't quote me where she goes, Hey, look over there.
It's it's just it's just a deflection, right, It's just
this deflection, and it's saying look over there, don't look
at it within our own home, like, don't look at
what's happening in our camp. And I think that for
trans people, they've been scapegoaded as these sexual deviants, these
these gender deviants who really have no again, like, where's

(01:06:42):
the track record, where's like the actual evidence documented cases
of this happening. You don't see it. And so when
you have people saying I don't agree with trans folks,
it's like they didn't and it does. On top of that,
it doesn't matter what you think. I don't think it's
okay to be a billionaire, right, but like does my
opinion matter? And it's not going to matter. And again,

(01:07:02):
what the problem is is that when you have folks
who are saying these things and again that the angriest,
loudest folks are really again they are the minority when
when you see when they make their voices heard, they're
making it heard in the political arena, which of course
is affecting policy and legislation in this kind of stuff.
And so I think that when people say they disagree,
it's like, give give me some reasons why. And again,

(01:07:23):
if we want to talk about like like like trans
folks in sports, look at like the what's the word?
Look at how many trans folks are winning in their
in their respective sports when they're competing in as trans people.
They're not winning like you know what I mean, Like
there have been some you know victories or some cases
working done well, but again, the disproportionate number of people
that they're just not like they're like getting like fifth

(01:07:44):
and sixth and seventh place, they're not like like beating everyone,
you know what I mean, and so like I and again,
if that's really your issue is trans people in sports,
and yet you are not looking at the unbelievable level
of abuse of children and also just people and you know,
people who were at an age of consent within Christian

(01:08:05):
churches and Christian organizations. Again, what the hell is going
on where we're talking about trans folks and sports, which
is like this unbelievable minority versus this unbelievably common and
you know, recurring what's the word, pattern of abuse. It's
just bonkers to me that we're talking about trans people
ever as opposed to what's happening that'th on it literal

(01:08:27):
daily basis that news is coming out about these folks
literally daily basis.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
That is so true, so true, And even the statistics
around people say, wow, well they shouldn't be mutilating children.
I think the statistics for that are like not actually
nonexistent or you know, if it, I think it's like
very very very very small numbers of children who are
or young adults even who are placed on like hormone

(01:08:55):
replacement therapy and things like that. But everybody's like any
child that comes forward and says that, you know, they
feel like they're in the wrong body immediately gets put
on you know HRT, which is from my understanding, just
not actually happening the way the media makes us think,
or social media, I should say, really more so than anything.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
I'd love to see the receipts, right, I'd love to
see the documented cases. Give me evidence. When you have evidence, cool,
let's talk from there. But until then, if you're simply
saying that you know, children are going into bathrooms and
using like what is it a kitty litter like to
go to the bathroom in these public schools, show me
the cases. I can't wait to find out these again,
documented cases and to see the ebudence. Why can't I

(01:09:33):
wait because it's never going to happen.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
It doesn't happen, And drag queens are causing people to
become trans and all sorts of like really like COVID.
You know, if you get the COVID vaccine, you're going
to shed the vaccine into the air and it's going
to make people get canceled, you know, really conspiratorial type
of stuff that rushop. It gets to drag queen and
I don't know, maybe you'll want to get dressed up

(01:09:56):
and look fabulous too. I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't mind.
I'd like a night on the town, you know, done
up to done up to the nines.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
Jac, this is what we call science. Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
I actually spent the weekend with with a drag queen
recently at crime Con. Do you know English drag queen ryl.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
Yes, you know Sheheryl Hale.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Yeah, we hung out for a weekend at crime Con
because she has a podcast about colts and well killers,
queens and colts. So she, yeah, we were hanging.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
You're hanging out with drag queen Royalty.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
Looked fabulous all weekend as well. She had like so
like like nine foot tall, where the biggest dresses are
the biggest hair, and I was just like, you are
like a monument. It's incredible. Yeah, that was really fun.
And then when she got out of drag she was
like the same height and size as me, and I

(01:11:03):
was like, this is really strange, like it really is
two different people. But yeah, great fun, great, great fun.
I just yeah, I'm not allowed to watch RuPaul anymore
because the last time I well, well I was binge
watching it. One time, locked myself away in my room
in a dark room, just watching RuPaul NonStop, and then

(01:11:24):
it turned out I was pregnant, so I was like,
I don't know, it's just this rid thing, but I
just want to lay down. And then my partner came
home and not long after our son was born and
I was tucked up on the couch watching RuPaul and
he was like no, and I was like what and
he was like, surely not. And I was pregnant again.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
Again. This is what science.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
Yeah, I'm not allowed to watch it anymore because you know,
he'll be like, what's going on? What's going on? But yeah,
I absolutely, I absolutely love it. And I don't know
how anybody that you know, I don't know how you
can be anything but happy watching that show. I mean,

(01:12:08):
there are sad moments, you know, when people are talking
about some of the things that I mentioned in the
book Shame Sex Attraction, but I think you're talking about
Jada Essence Hall there, thank.

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
You and here I am Oh my gosh, don't again.
We need to edit all of this now. I'm just kidding.
I'm a terrible gay, I'm a terrible rupe. Paul fan,
it's official. I'm now out of the closet in that sense.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
Well, you have a second book coming out soon. Is
there a release date for that? You know, plans for publication.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
So I have the book under contract. It's with the
University of Georgia Press. I went with an academic press
this time, just because they speaking of Bob Jones University.
They the reason why I chose them was because they
have a collection of short stories that were written by
Bob Jones queer Bob Jones alumni, and they write that's

(01:13:22):
Lance Welde's collection, and so I thought, well, if they
published this, maybe they'd be interested in a book about
queer experiences of Christian college was universities and seminaries. And
sure enough they responded. We did a little bit back
and forth and got the contract and now everything will
be submitted to them fingers crossed, Lord wille if we
shed used such a term by September first, I think,

(01:13:43):
is one my deadline is from there, Well, this is
what happens with the editorial process. From there, it's then
they look at all the stories, they go through them.
They offered their edits. I've been editing with authors for
the past like I don't know, seven eight months going
back and forth with you know, authors, revising, revise and revising,
getting into that publishable level. They then go through their

(01:14:04):
own edits and they offer their comments, you know, questions, whatever,
and then from there we make some more edits, and
then we go back I can ford back and forth,
and then we then and then it goes into this
sort of mysterious timeframe where I don't fully understand, like
I'm not in the publishing world even though I publish,
I'm not on the on the inside. I'm on you know,
this side of things where I'm just writing and editing,

(01:14:25):
and then they do something behind the scenes. I don't
really know what it is. It's again, when I figure
it out, I'll let you know. But it takes several months.
And so this book will most likely come out sometime
in twenty twenty six, I mean maybe twenty twenty seven.
But I'm oh by I think is yeah, so I'm steady.

Speaker 1 (01:14:41):
Relations I have this visit in my head now of
like a like a basement with a cauldron and they're
putting light, different ingredients in and then putting your own
manuscripted then stir it all together.

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
That's actually how it works. That is how it works,
and I I will no, but it's super exciting. Becau
Is the collection is I don't know yet the official
number because it's ultimately up to them to decide on
which stories will eventually go in, even though I think
all of them deserve to be in there. It'll be
anywhere from like twenty to twenty four stories, so it's

(01:15:13):
a few more stories this time. And honest to goodness, Casey,
the stories for this collection are so well done, Like
they are so well told. They are captivating, they are dramatic,
they are heartbreaking, they are everything right. There's sort of
a range of like really fine experiences, really horrible experiences,
really hopeful experiences, etc. Etc. So there's a range, and

(01:15:37):
I'm super excited about that because I want to show
what it's like to go to these schools, because it's
not for me. It wasn't just one thing at Liberty.
Like there were moments of awful sort of like psychological
labor and emotional and spiritual labor. There are also moments
of a lot of fun. And that is like breaking
the rules right and so doing things that I quote
unquote shouldn't have been doing, which is also part of

(01:15:59):
the queer experience, part of any experience in these schools
for straight or we're people. And so I want to
give this sort of like whole body, this well rounded
representation of what it's like for queer folks to go
to these schools and to show what these schools do
to us and what they've done to us and what
they continue to do to us in the US on
taxpayer dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:16:20):
Right, Yeah, what a strong What a strong book that's
going to be. And I suppose you've just kind of
summed it up there. I was going to ask what
the biggest takeaway is you hope readers get from your work,
But I'm kind of getting the sense that it's a
lot to do with showing people that they're not alone

(01:16:42):
or isolated in these experiences, because I imagine at the
time you must feel like you're the only person that
feels this way or has experienced these things. And I
know the power that cult survivors talk about when they say, wow,
there was a whole load of people out there who
were all their story and it was my story, even
though the cult was you know, a therapy cult, religious cult,

(01:17:05):
political cult, whatever. So I don't know how much feedback
you get from readers where they're like, thank you for
showing me that I'm not on my own.

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):
Yeah. From so, I had a few books come out.
Only one of them's public faces, and the other two
were academics, so no one cares about them. So I
don't really talk about them, but I care about them,
and I wish people would. But again, it's academic, so
you know, we bracket those off for Shane sex attraction.
It is wild the number of folks who have reached
out saying, hey, you know, I went through conversion therapy

(01:17:36):
and this reminded this story reminds me of my time,
or I'm just queer and come from a religious background,
and it's so wild the parallels between my experience and
these stories, and so it is. You know, it's so
nice to hear that these stories resonate with folks. And
I'm only assuming that queer folks who went to Christian colleges, universities,
or just Christian high schools, Christi middle schools, Christian elementary schools,

(01:17:58):
or just the church. Right, I think that the next collection,
you know what I mean, There's so many things that
are that again, they're not the same, but they rhyme.
And I think that a lot of people when they
when they read this, if they're queer, or if they're
not queer, if they went to Christian schools, or they
didn't go to Christian schools, if they're still religious or
they're not religious, now, no matter what, I think that
people are going to pick up this book when if
they pick up this book and find themselves in some way,

(01:18:21):
shape or form or find the story of you know,
friends or family in there. And I think that's what
I really hope happens, is that people feel seeing people
feel represented, and they see themselves in the story. Not
that I want them to see themselves in stories, because
ultimately they're not stories of you know, uh, resilience per se.
There's stories of oppression and suffering and you know pain,

(01:18:43):
but that in the healing process they will and in
order to find resilience, in order to find you know,
alleviation of pain and suffering and and and bad memories
and trauma, that people are able to see themselves in
these stories. And that's that's really the big hope. And
that really these schools have a spotlight, you know, aimed
at them to show what they do in the dirty

(01:19:03):
work they do behind the scenes.

Speaker 1 (01:19:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, And who knows what students current
students will pick that book up. And actually, you know,
the whistle blow in ripple effect can be swift and
it can be powerful, So who knows what will happen
on that front. It's all very exciting, don't ask tell all.
I hope that you'll agree to come on a second

(01:19:27):
time so we can catch up when the second book
comes out.

Speaker 2 (01:19:31):
That'd be just wonderful. You're a dream and how fun
to chat with you.

Speaker 1 (01:19:37):
I've really enjoyed this conversation. It's been educational and heartfelt.
But I've also been able to ask you some questions
that have been on my mind around kind of you know,
just communicating with the queer community in the most sensitive
and proactive way, which I think is important for people
that are not hateful, that are just decent human things.

(01:20:00):
You know. Just this doesn't take much, but I would
like to end on asking you what advice would you
give to somebody who is either currently experiencing conversion therapy
or has been told that they need to, or has

(01:20:22):
come out the other end of it and is trying
to kind of navigate that that period in their life.

Speaker 2 (01:20:31):
I'd say, you are okay the way you are, that
you're beautiful and you are important, and there is nothing
wrong with you as it relates to your genuine sexuality.
That is simply who you are, and it's not something
to hide. It's not something to fight, it's not something
to resist. It is something to embrace, the way that
everyone should embrace their generine sexuality across the spectrum. And

(01:20:55):
I think that a big part of my healing process,
and I think it's a big part of a lot
of folks healing processes is finding a community that acknowledges
and recognizes you for who you are and is not
trying to change you. I think anyone in any way
where someone like you're talking to someone, or you're in
community with someone, or you live near someone or with

(01:21:16):
someone whatever, and they're trying to change you, that's a
big no no, that's a big read for like, tell
them the fuck off. That is not anyone's job to
change anyone else. Right, Like our ability and our desire
to change yourselves comes from within, it should not come
from without. If we want to change certain parts of
who we are, phenomenal. If we don't want to change
certain parts of who we are, then don't touch it,

(01:21:37):
right And anyone who tries to force you to change
in any way, especially when it comes to your gender, sexuality,
part of just who you are, that is something that
should never be so. I think finding a community who
respects and honors you and your respects and honors your
truth is paramount importance. I also think expose yourself to
new ideas. For me, grad school gave me that opportunity

(01:21:58):
in a very structured, cool way, but it's not everyone's path,
and not everyone wants to go to grad school or
undergrad even And I think that finding books, finding resources,
running podcasts like this to hear you know, different perspectives
and your perspectives that maybe you don't agree with, but
ultimately that you can engage with in order to find
you know who you are. That's important too. I think

(01:22:20):
the community and knowledge are two things that are so
important and are integral to allowing us to live you know,
authentic free lives. And I think both of these things
are super super necessary and should be pursued.

Speaker 1 (01:22:36):
That's beautiful. I love that. Thank you so much. What's
strong sentiments to end the episode on this has been
really delightful for me. I appreciate you and your time
and your book, and I'm sure i'll appreciate the next
book and the email with the title for the third book,
But Shame Sex Attraction is available to purchase now. I'll

(01:22:58):
put a link to the book in the episode disc
ription and let's keep in touch, Luke, and I look
forward to some updates on your next ventures

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
On This has been so much fun and I am
honored to have been on here and I can't wait
to keep up with you.

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