S3 E33 Animal Abuse and Power: What You Are Not Being Told

In this episode of the Cult Vault Podcast, host Kacey speaks with Maya Badham, founder of Safeguarding Human and Animal Survivors of Sexual and Domestic Abuse (SAHSDA), about the intersection of animal cruelty and coercive control in domestic abuse. They explore how animals are used as tools of manipulation and control, the cultural contexts of animal abuse, and the importance of recognising these issues in the broader conversation about human rights and violence. Maya shares her unique career path and insights into the systemic issues surrounding animal and human abuse, emphasising the need for a coordinated response to these intertwined problems.

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Home | SAHSDA Safeguarding human and animal survivors domestic abuse sexual abuse

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Con UK is coming to London in twenty twenty
five on the seventh and eighth of June for ten
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Crime Con UK is the best weekend of the year
and I really hope I see some of you there. Hello,

(00:23):
and welcome to the Cult Vault podcast, your dedicated podcast
for uncovering the darkest corners of cults and coercive control.
I'm your host, Casey, and I want to start by
thanking each and every one of you for tuning in.
Your support fuels our deep dives into these critical issues.
Before we get started, a word of caution. Today's episode

(00:44):
may contain discussions on abuse, including graphic descriptions of abuse,
and covers a variety of human rights violations that may
be triggering for some listeners. Please consider this as a
trigger warning and proceed with caution. I'm thrilled to announce
that I'll be appearing at crime Con UK in London
on the seventh and eighth of June twenty twenty five,

(01:04):
and again in Manchester on the twenty seventh of September
twenty twenty five join me and a host of world
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(01:25):
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(01:46):
pledge not only gives you exclusive access but also directly
supports the continuation of this work. Thank you again for
your support and your listenership. Now let's unlock the vault. Hello, Hello,
Hello listeners, and welcome back to another episode of the
Cork Bold Podcast. I'm your host, Casey, and I'm joined

(02:06):
today by an expert who is going to talk about
something that we've never covered on the podcast before, but
it ties into everything that I've looked at recently in
terms of coercive control and how it happens across contexts.
So we're talking further than intimate partner violence. We're talking

(02:31):
about further than familial psychological abuse. We're talking about so
much more than that. And I'm so excited to welcome
Maya tother podcast. Hello, Maya, Hello, Thank you so much
for having me, Thank you for coming, and thank you
for having a nice little chit chat with me before
we hit record about Crime Con where we're both going

(02:53):
to be in June on the seventh and eighth in London.
I can't wait. We'll talk all about that in a
lit all well, but for now, could you please introduce
yourself to the listeners.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, sure, so, Yeah, I'm may I'm the founder and
CEO of Safeguarding Animal and Human Survivors of Sexual and
Domestic Abuse, which everyone is always very happy to know.
You can call SASTA because it is a very long name,
but it does what it says on the tin in
terms of kind of encapsulating what we do in the
subject matter which we we work in. Really so we

(03:27):
are an international organization. We work across the globe to
increase awareness of the intersection of animal quality and abuse
and general criminality. But my specialism is in the use
of companion animals as a tactic of couest of control
and behavior, as well as animal sexual abuse.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
To tell people that this is the organization that you launched,
that you spearhead, and they say, oh, I didn't realize
that there was, you know, a need to look at
the safeguarding of animal and human survivors of sexual and
domestic abuse. What do you say to that. I think,

(04:07):
you know, it's not an uncommon reaction to have. I
think I think most people, and especially your listeners and
especially the people at crime can't. There's a general understanding
that those who harm animals are more likely to harm
people and that it can be a stepping stone to
further violence. So many people focus on the link between

(04:27):
you know, animal quality and serial killers. That's something that
people kind of have a general kind of understanding of.
But what I do is so much deeper than that.
Like you mentioned right at the start, animal neglect and
abuse touches all forms of criminality. So sometimes I play
a little game with people and I say, give me.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
A type of criminality that you think doesn't touch animals,
and I'll be able to tell you how it does.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
And that's because it is so entrenched in the way
that we live our lives.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Now, you know that we you know, animals are part
of our environment, whether that's in our homes or in
some countries in the streets, you know, so we have
street dogs for example, places like India and the least,
and that's our interactions with animals are on a daily basis.
Even if you do not have a pet, you will
have some sort of interaction in the wider environment on

(05:18):
your phones. You know, they're part of our lives, so
it's not uncommon for them to have some basic understanding.
But then we dig. When we dig deeper, they can
be quite shocked at just how intrinsically linked the two
things are. And one of my favorite quotes by Mark Randall,

(05:40):
who's he's a retired police officer but a specialist in
international crimes against animals and a very dear colleague of mine.
He said, when violence against an animal is inflicted, society
has a responsibility to consider what are the dangers that person,
you know, you know, may pose to the wider society.
And I always start my training with that quote because

(06:01):
I think it is very poignant and brings everything together.
Really nicely, and what inspired you to establish SASDA and
focus on the intersection of animal and human survivors of abuse. Yeah,
so it's a really interesting question. So my background is

(06:22):
really varied, and I've always loved sitting at the intersection.
So even from a very kind of young age, I've
had very varied interests, and they always seem to focus
around kind of ethics and rights and philosophy and that
kind of change, change that needs to happen to better
the world.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
So I started out.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
In kind of human violence only, although obviously care about animals,
and in fact I wanted to be a vet. That
was my first memory. If you'd asked me as a child,
you know, what do you want to be? I would
have said a vet for pretty much my whole childhood.
But then when I hit kind of a levels, I
realized I'm not very strong at maths or science, and

(07:06):
unfortunately you need to be very good at that to
kind of get into to vet school. So I shifted
focus really more to human rights. So I did my
my undergrad in history with a focus on gender depression
throughout time and sexual violence as a weapon of war particularly,

(07:27):
and then I did a master's in human rights loll
straight after that, again with a focus on sexual violence,
but mainly within or against the LGBTQ plus community. And
then when I left university, one of my first jobs
was actually in the coroner's office, so I was investigating
suspicious in the natural deaths, doing in quests, doing some

(07:48):
bits in the actual court so in coroner's courts are
swearing people in and it was a really interesting job.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
I loved it. I loved the work, but I always
knew wanted to work in prevention really because what we want,
we don't want people to sadly be passing away. So
I moved then into frontline advocacy and support. So I'm
a qualified independent sexual violence advisor with especialism in Internet
partner sexual violence, so within a kind of a partnered setting.

(08:17):
And I also did work with some adult survivors of
chartered sexual abuse had been abused in their family setting,
so not by a partner. And then I did work
with some stranger related cases, but very very few. And
again that's a big myth that's often we often have
around sexual violence is actually you're most likely to be
abused by someone that you know and that you know

(08:40):
well so I did that well overall about six years
in total.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
I did not all of it as an IZBA, but
I did a lot of voluntary work in kind of
the sexual and domestic abuse field throughout university. And then
then I moved, so I moved your graphical areas and
I started working in training education, so for Welsh Women's
Age Who's Now or Welsh charity in domestic, domestic and
sexual abuse. And at the same time I kind of

(09:06):
started there. In twenty nineteen, I got my dog as
a puppy, Drick, and I found him really interesting.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Cute name, isn't.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
It Hodrig is amazing, yeah, Pard, And he really was
so interesting to me. You know, he would be doing
things and I'll just be thinking, why is he doing that?
What does he want? You know, learning how he's talking
to me, obviously without talking to me in English or

(09:38):
in our language, human languages. And what I found was
that I was using a lot of the work that
I did with children and young adults with him, although
he'd hadn't necessarily been traumatized in any way. I just
that kind of charm informed, gentle approach to how I
would work with survivors. I applied to him, and so
I kind of went down this rabbit hole of canine

(10:01):
perhaps behavior and well being, and through that and making
friends with kind of some specialists in that sector, I
realized that they had almost no understanding of their safeguarding responsibilities.
So moving I started off in kind of the non
violence and abuse sector with Sastera. Really it was about
upskilling animal professionals in the link between kind of violence

(10:26):
against humans and animal abuse, so that because they're going
into homes, they're working with whole family, yet they had
and often they're self employed people that don't have a HR,
they've never worked in where they've had to do safelind
and referravles. So it was important at first for me
to upskill that sector. At the same time, I was

(10:49):
kind of getting my qualifications and certificates in dog behavior
and at wider animal behavior in a pidithology just because
I found it really interesting. So Sastera came about really
as a mashup of my two worlds, which has led
which which I enjoy massively because like I said, I've

(11:10):
always operated at that intersection and I think that's what
makes me quite unique as a person and a specialist
in that I've got over a decade in domestic abuse
and violence against women and girls in sexual violence, and
then I've also now got a coming up six years
also in kind of animal behavior, specializing in dogs and
trauma and animals. So it's kind of that unique mix

(11:34):
of interest that really kind of drives me, I suppose,
and how they just feed so naturally into each other
that it's it's that's what really interested me.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
It's an incredible career. It's you've done so much. You've
done so much in kind of not not a short
amount of time, but you've done over sort of a
decade or so what some people do, you know, over
their entire careers, So you're really getting a little taste

(12:11):
of everything and doing incredible work in all these different pockets.
I think I was lucky in that.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Some people they do much more exploration to get where
they want to be or where they know they want
to be, And I was just lucky in that I've
known for so long. Literally in my break when I
try and think back, it really is college. Like fifteen sixteen,
I knew I was going to work in kind of

(12:43):
human rights, and that kind of interest has been there
for me from day dot. So I'm lucky in that,
and I think people sometimes do look at me my age,
especially because I look younger than I am, and they
kind of don't take me as seriously because they don't
understand that I've got such a long background in it

(13:06):
and that intersection. So with history that is looking at
you know, multiple countries, multiple angles, analytics, and then with
human rights though again it was looking at domestic and international.
So I just have and I'm a sponge, so if
I'm interested in something, I will just consume and kind

(13:27):
of until I know it almost at an expert level.
And that's what happened with the dog stuff. I was
a bit interested in it and then I just went
so deeply into it that now I've got these qualification
and certificates. And it's because I'm just so interested. And
I think it's part of like having a neurodivergent brain.
But the ability to like make connections at a wide

(13:52):
angle and at the minute shirt is something that is
something that is strong for me in that I can
just see things quite clearly where other people might not
see them as as easily.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Amazing and soon you'll be doctor Mayer talk about this. Yeah, Yeah,
we can talk about this.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
I'm very excited to be I'm like, you know, I'm
like four and a half years probably away from allowed
to use the term, but my family have already started
calling me, calling me lots to me, I think, like,
I've always wanted to do a PhD.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
It was something that i've again since about college, since I.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Knew that it was a thing. And I'm really glad.
I actually applied for PhD funding straight after my master's
and I didn't get it. And you know, at the time,
when you don't get things, you're like really kind of
oh bummed out about it. But I'm so grateful now
that I didn't get it then because in those ten

(14:57):
years since then, I've got, you know, boots on the
ground experience. My topic has completely changed than what it
was back then. I feel way more comfortable and competent
in myself as like a person, and I think that's

(15:17):
something that research generally is missing quite a lot of
the time, is lots of people just stay in academy.
They start in academa and they stay in academa. They
don't have that boots on the ground, actual practical experience,
working say with survivors in a way that that is
like meaningful for a long period of time. So I'm

(15:38):
hoping that's something I can kind of bring with with.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
The Yeah, again, intersecting, blending of different worlds, this is
this is great. And when we talk about coercive control,

(16:10):
and you'll know about this more than I do. I
touched on it a bit in my dissertation and it
was one of the questions I included in the scale
I developed for my master's research. There are elements of
animal abuse mentioned in section seventy six of the Serious

(16:33):
Crime Act for coercive in controlling behavior. So what can
you tell us about how companion animals may be used
as a tactic of control and what are some of
the signs that people should be aware of. Yeah, so

(16:55):
in the UK specifically, it's a little bit different in
some of the other countries, but we have this kind
of separation of well crime and against humans and then
we have animal abuse and we kind of see them
quite separate. So that's historically what's being one of the

(17:16):
big issues.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Then there are some people like myself who are trying
to get that intersection known more so in terms of
how animals are used as a tactic of quaestic countrilian behavior.
It can start literally from the starts when you think
about the entrapment process and you think of the grooming stage,
which is right at the start. If the victim survivor
already has an animal, it might be that they are

(17:41):
very interested in that animal. They might ask lots of
questions about that animals. What they're trying to do.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
There is build a bond with the human victim survivor,
and animals are very easy vehicle to do that because
if you have an animal, you probably love that animal
very much.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
It's so exactly like children in that sense of the word.
So if the person already has children, they might be
very nice to the children. They might give gifts, they
might go on days out, and it's similar for the
animals that they might bring treats or they might give
lots of first and they'd be really interested in the animal.
So it starts off with that right at the start
of that course of control and relationship. If there isn't

(18:16):
an animal already involved, they might gift an animal, and
that's a bit like getting someone pregnant really early, so
you've got a shared responsibility and economic responsibility straight away,
and gifting of animals can occur at any any part
of the stage, but kind of an easy example for entapment.

(18:38):
And then when we move into kind of the normalization
independency stage, that's when they'll start positioning your lovers to
the animal as abnormal because what they're trying to do
is center themselves as the most important kind of being
in that person's life, and they can become very kind
of jealous of the bond, you know, the other bonds

(18:59):
that they have. They want them to contact all of
their energy and time and focus onto them, So they'll
start positioning things like, oh, it's really weird that you
like the dog more than me, or you know, that
kind of emotional kind of gasalyzing behavior. Their position there
as part of that movement of reality that they do. Anyway,
the animal will feature within that potentially, and then once

(19:22):
you come to obviously entrapment, that can look like threats
to harm the animal.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
So one of the.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Biggest myths that I confront quite a lot is we
still think of animal abuse as physical violence only just
like we do for the course of control with domestic abues. Generally,
is the woman with a black eye, it's the animal
with a broken leg when absolutely physical violence can play
a part, but a lot of the time, even with

(19:51):
the animal abuse, it's much wider than only physical abuse.
So with the threats, just like with children, for example,
I my animals, I know, someone would just have to
say that they're going to harm my animals. I will
do whatever they want me to do because I want
to prevent my animals from being harmed. Certainly we have
to lift finger towards towards them. They just have to

(20:13):
say that they're going to analostly, and I would believe
them because of that environment which they've created. So that
that's quite a good example of the use of threats.
Then obviously when they do when they do physically harm
the animals, might be things like forcing them to ingest

(20:36):
drugs and alcohol. It might be kind of hitting, kicking behaviors. Unfortunately,
we do see animals being killed quite regularly, and that's
something that I'm interested in focusing on from a number
from a statistics point of view, because we just don't
know how many animals that we are using. You know,

(20:57):
we've only just been counting suicide, but domestically related suicide
women starting women, you know, women or victims, wives, who
have died. So we're we're way behind in terms of
yeah or doing any sort of level of animal deaths.
And I think part of that. The difficulty with that
is I could go down the road now and get

(21:17):
a kitten from gum tree.

Speaker 1 (21:19):
No one would know. There's no record of that.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
And then I could kill that the animal and bury
it in the back garden or throw it in the
river or whatever.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
No like that. There's no record of that.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
If I've not registered that the vets, it's not ensured,
there's no there's no trail of that really, right, So
we just don't know the shear scale of it. I
suspect when we start to dig it will become very
very concerning.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
I'm already thinking about illegal dog fighting, you know, breeding,
reproductive coercion of animals, you know, like forcing animals to
breed for the purposes of you know, like cockral fire
or dog fighting, or as a means of selling animals
to make money. You know, sometimes you'll just say I've

(22:09):
got ten puppies for sale. You know, it might just
the puppies look cute on the internet, But we don't
really know the circumstances behind that. It might just be like, oh,
my two dogs have had puppies, and now you know
we need lovely homes for them. But also it could
be a lot darker than that, I suppose. And then
you talked about the animal debts and that makes me
think of the recent conference that we both attended together

(22:32):
for the National Working Group for Spiritual and Ritual Abuse
and animal debts that I imagine do occur in spiritual
and ritual abuse circumstances where people are sacrificing animals, or
people are using animals for witchcraft and leaving animals outside

(22:54):
of people's homes as you know, like a sign of again,
threats fit intimidation. All the thing is that Evan Stark
uses to define coercive control even though we're not really
talking about intimate partnerships there, We're talking about something much bigger.
So I see exactly what you mean and maya, Oh
my gosh, you could just go so wide with all

(23:14):
of this. Yeah, yeah, So.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Obviously I chair the subgroup in the for the National
Working Group, which is the use of animals within spiritual
and Richard Abuse, and it kind of came about by
accident because I mentioned it. So I met with Jordan
I don't remember how we how we met. I think
I just asked him like, oh, I know, I went
on one of his CPD the really short one, the

(23:37):
original one, and at the end I stayed and I said, oh,
have you ever considered all you know, does anyone consider
about how animal neglect and cruelty feeds into spiritual and
rich abuse? And he quite And these are the situations
that I get in where I ask questions. No one
else is really looking at it, so it comes back
to me. And that's exactly what happened with Jornan was like, oh, no,

(23:58):
hown't re thought back. Could you go and have dig
around and see what you can find? And I couldn't
find a lot, to be honest, because again, like it's
something that's often not really thought about or considered. There
are few especially in kind of America. There's some kind
of newspapers and are talked about about it.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
But no proper kind of what. Yeah, what we do find.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Is the use of animals, so for animal blood for sacrifices,
animal parts for tokens. In terms of accusations about witchcraft,
like they're historically that there has been a connection between
mainly women and animals and then painting them as being
witches familiars, so therefore they are then seen as witches

(24:45):
if you so. Black Cats is a really great example
of that where that's not necessarily like an animal quality thing,
but that association with animals, with certain types of animals,
then feeds into kind of gender violence and oppression. Yeah,
so there's like you say, it is so wide, and
it's so so wide. Wow, my mind is racing now

(25:07):
because I'm thinking about you know, all of the examples
that we've given are examples of things that we've heard
about happening in the.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
UK as well. So you're talking about animal sacrifices, you're
talking about animal tokens and things that you might not
necessarily associate with predominantly white, predominantly Christian nation. But we
are such a blended country now with you know, like
a whole amalgamation of spiritual belief spiritual practices and cultural influences.

(25:42):
There are so many you know, we're very lucky to
be so enriched with so much diversity in culture and
spiritual beliefs. But with that comes practices that are illegal
in this country but are still happening, like female genital mutilation,
breast flattening. And you know, people think that some people
may think that those things don't happen here. They absolutely do.

(26:05):
We hear about them at places like the conference that
we both attended, where people stood up and told their
first person accounts of being kidnapped and having to drink
animal blood and being trafficked over here to the UK
and held hostage in their own home because they had,
you know, like the use of animal cruelty as a

(26:28):
confinement tool to keep them in their homes. So, I mean,
people who a listener might be thinking, hang on a minute,
you're talking about things that are you know, far away
from home, but they are not. I would imagine that
this type of animal cruelty and all the other examples
you've given are happening worldwide and in subspaces more severely.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, And I think, you know, it's really important that
you know, we don't generalize to one community or one
kind of country, because I think religion does player roles.
But even in kind of like you know, Christianity, there's
you know theresults of talk about, oh, animals don't have souls.
There's conversations around like, for example, Islam said that the

(27:16):
saliva of dogs is unclean. So there's there is cultural
considerations that we have to make that are okay. So
for example, I just delivered training to social workers at
a local authority about reducing dog bite risk for professionals
entering homes. You know, because they're often going into homes
where they're they're going there because there's a reason either

(27:39):
there's you know, the vulnerable adult or child, there's a
stressful situation.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
That's why social workers get involved.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
And social workers who are Muslim have the right to
go to work and not have to worry about things
like dog saliva. So what we talked there about is
ways to mitigate the dog being in the same room
because but certain people, you know, if they did get
dogs survived on their clothes, then they would be seen
as unclean. They'd have to change and wash before prayer.

(28:06):
And it's not fair. You should be able to go
to work and practice your work without you know, the
impact of Yeah, absolutely only. So that's a really great
example there. So it's not just I mean I've had
cases where we've seen vickers abusing animals.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
We've seen I mean, we know that there.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
Is no sector of society where there isn't an intersection
with abuse of suffer line. So it's really important that
we don't that you say, don't pigeonhole it to one
particular group of people, that we look at it wider.
And that's the criticism that we've had whenever there is
a serious case review, a domestic commonside review, is that

(28:49):
information sharing and that professional curiosity has been lacking because
we look so narrow And I think that's one of
the things that SASTA is good at and I really
push for, is to just widen that lens and increase
that professional curiosity so that we're not looking at silos anymore.
We're not looking narrowly, We're looking at the whole picture.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
So what we talk.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
About is SASER positions is that you need to start
including animals in a whole family and a whole community
coordinated community response to domestic abuse, sexual abuse, general criminality
prevention and response, and if you're not, then it's not
best practice in my opinion. So that's what we're kind

(29:33):
of pushing for at the moment is raising awareness, yes,
is great, but my big passion is turning that into practice.
So the practical application of knowledge is key to actual change,
A meaningful engagement with Wow, this is fascinating. My brain

(29:54):
is just like going in so many different directions. I'm
thinking about, Like you mentioned imagery of animals and how
that is almost you know, it feeds into the cruelty
of animals, like snakes in Christian rhetoric, you know, snake handlers,
snake traumas catching snakes. And then what do they call

(30:18):
it when they when they push all the venomu They
call it silky milking milking snakes, right, because really interesting
you brought that up because in one of the parts
of the Flagship training we talk about how our language
and our views but animals feeds into perpetrators mentality.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
So for example, common insults like pig, swine, bitch, yes,
vincin you know they are.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
They're often gendered, but they're also animal based and that
feeds into you know, perpetrators mentality is that they're kind
of at the top the hierarchy, so they have a
very fixed view of often gender role, but also their
place in the world as being often we talk about
master of the castle type mentality, and what they do

(31:07):
is they position themselves at the top of a tang
or at the center of like a circle, and women,
children and animals are kind of under them, so they
position themselves as kind of often wanting that unconditional compliance, dominance, respect.

(31:28):
This kind of mentality is what they kind of thrive on,
and that's their motivating Obviously, they're motivating factor for abuses,
that wanting of power and control and that's over everyone.
And what you often see with their treatment of the
human victim survivors is they will dehumanize them, so they'll
then put them a peg down to equate them as animals,

(31:51):
and then you sometimes will see that in the tactics
that they choose. So for example, I've had survivors who
are forced to eat off the floor or toilet out side,
or sleep outside, or the sexual abuse is very animal related,
and or they might bring animals in as a degradation
and humiliation, which we know is high risks for serious

(32:12):
harm and homicide behavior. So this is what I mean
by it's not just about the link and because in
those it's just that dehumanization. There are known animals being
abused in that situation, but the beliefs of the society
that we have around animals feeds directly into the motivating
tactics of the abuser, even if there aren't any pets

(32:34):
in that family home. You know that, like we talk,
what the language that's used is very very animal related.
And that dehumanization we've seen throughout history. So for example,
in the around genocide, which is something I might might
deaseless focus at undergrad, they would dehumanize the opposing group
as cock croaches. So again, so it's easier to kind

(32:57):
of harm and kill other people if we don't see
them as human. We saw it in Nazi Germany with
positioning to use as rats, and you know is less
than so that happens all that we don't just need
it need to think of it as something that happens
in war and in genocide, like that's happening in homes.
That language, that rhetoric, that mentality is is pre event.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
Yeah. Yeah, And that feeds into directly into like Robert J.

(33:42):
Liften's eight criteria for thought reform, where he talks a
lot about the dispensing of existence, you know, where one
group has a say over who gets to live, who
doesn't get to live, who has a right to existence basically,
so that is you know that criteria if a thought
reform applies directly to what you've just talked about, you know,

(34:05):
civilizations having their you know, psychological profiles twisted, manipulated and changed.
But it also applies directly to cults. So the foundational
criteria for looking at cults is Robert J. Liften's work.
So we're talking now about things happening in the home,

(34:27):
things happening with mass genocide, things happening in cults. So again,
it just all it all links, doesn't it. It all, it
all goes across. And my friend who I was on
my unicorse with my masters, she said that they when
they changed the fight, fight, freeze or thawn, she said
she didn't like the idea of thawn because again it

(34:48):
goes back to how women are subjugated and how a
fawn response almost makes it sound like it's a weak
woman who you know, doesn't know how to respond to
trauma or stress or abuse. So I thought that was
quite interesting. What do you think about that? Well, I
actually don't use fawn. So the five f's, the five

(35:10):
trauma responses. There's a little bit of difference in the literature.
So when I talk about human trauma response, because animals
also have trauma response, I talk about fight, flight, freeze
flop friend. I actually don't see thorn and fight flight,
freeze flop and friend are brain and bodily related, and so,

(35:34):
like you, I think the language, I prefer it not
to be in there, although some would use pawn in
the five F sport animals as well. But yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Think it's about understanding the hormonal responses as well. You
know that it is a natural. It's not related to
your sexual gender, how you respond to trauma. It's related
to your your brain and bodily functions, and so I
can understand why paun, especially when we talk about like

(36:07):
male victims of any form of trauma, faun might be
something that could be seen as gendered, so probably better
to be removed. But but yeah, it's not I think
maybe that's the Americans use foraun more in the In
the UK, I don't hear. I don't hear peun be
used as much, but I don't know for sure.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Interesting, Oh oh my gosh. I could talk to you
about this stuff all day. This is fascinating for me.
What would you say in your if you were delivering
some training and you were talking about, you know, if
you're doing safeguarding training around picking up on signs of

(36:47):
potential animal cruelty. What what would be some of the
things that you would teach people signs to look out for.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
So it really depends on if the profession was entering
the home or not. The first thing is to actually
ask people about animals, because you're not going to even
pick up on some of the signs if we don't
start asking meaningfully about the animals. So we talked a
lot about the dash wreck earlier, and we know there's
a question on the dash rick. I personally think it

(37:19):
could be improved because again, I think it makes people
think about physical harm quite a lot when we know
things like, so you know, not allowing them to take
an animal to the vet and not allowing them to
buy animal food, that's neglect under the animal while they're
at two thousand and six. In the UK, it's also

(37:42):
economic abuse and it's recognized as economic abuse under the
New Domestic Abuse Act. Well it's not new Animal twenty
twenty one, but I mean, like.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Twenty one worth last week.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
Something I'm used to saying, the new twenty twenty one Act,
just because we fought for so long to get the
twenty twenty twenty one Act and it's not perfect by
any means. Yeah, I wonder what year we stopped saying
the new DA. But yes, it's formally recognizing the guidance
as economic abuse walking again, so where they might use

(38:16):
pet trackers on the collar, you can get kind of
these this software that's marketed as oh, if you lose
your pet, you can find them, which is great. It's
obviously weaponized by perpetrators cornected by them staking out vetchanics,
following on dogwalks or horse rides, or staking out stables, etc.
These are all non contact, non violent, if you want

(38:39):
to use that phrase, aspects of animal abuse within coercive control.
So the first thing that I talk about is to
get their minds out of only physical because again, if
you're not someone that sees the animal, you're not going
to see a broken leg anyway. So I'm thinking about
you know, yours, the rest abuse advocates. For example, we
don't normally go into home, so when I talk I

(39:02):
talk to people like policing and social working and all
of that where they are more likely to potentially see
the animal or vets. Then we would talk more about
non accidental injury. But yeah, so the first thing is
I want them to actually start asking properly, And in
my training, what we talk about is how we ask
is really important. So what we know is survivors of

(39:23):
domesticallys and coercive control quite often they will minimize what's
happened to them for a variety of different reasons, which
are all kind of valid to them if we use
a chrmanformed approach. A lot of that is because they've
absorbed guilt and shame that's been put on them by
the perpetrator, so they believe that what's happened to them

(39:43):
is their fault. When we ask instead about the animal,
they don't necessarily place that same guilt and shame on
the animal because we don't see them as doing things
that deserve the harm. So when you ask about animal,
you can actually get quite a lot of information about
the whole family and the human victim survivors just by

(40:06):
asking properly about the animal. So, like I said, you know,
if they're not allowed to take the animal to there
because the other the perpetrator controls finances, you've got information
there that you can extend and say, oh, that's really
interesting that you know, you know, I'm really sorry to
hear that they control your finances and they're not allowed

(40:28):
to buy, you know, the dogbreed that you'd like. Are
there any other things that they do around controlling money that.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
You'd like to talk about?

Speaker 2 (40:35):
So you're kind of almost asking indirectly, but you might
be able to get much more information if we ask
about it. One of the things I'm pushing for is
that when we do intake into services, especially independent, that
we have a tab on our intake that asks about
pets specifically. So at the moment we have obviously victim
survivor or if there's multiple adults, we would include those

(40:59):
the perpeture information and child information. We don't have a
pet tab, So I think if we ask right at
the start, it gives us an in right away. So
if down the line we do need to think about
refuge and foster and all that, we've got that information
here rather than here, and when we're in kind of

(41:20):
crisis crisis situations where we're having to make things quickly,
decisions quickly, lots of kind of risk management, and then
when we know that there's a pet, we can include
those in our safety plans and in our risk management,
which at the moment we're not consistently doing okay or
doing effectively.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
And if you were to look at the way an
animal is presenting, what would be some of the signs
you might recognize in the animal itself that there is
something not right with their environment.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
So we just talked about a little bit about trauma,
So for me, a lot of it is about their
behave as well. So they might be so for dogs,
for example, they might be quite reactive to certain people.
They will have triggers themselves, so they might not if
they've not been allowed to socialize as young. They might
have reactivity to strange people they don't know, or they

(42:15):
might be forced to be quite aggressive. So what we
sometimes see is perpetrated as getting dogs that are status
dog et cetera, or even not, but they will create
an environment where that they purposely create the dog to
be aggressive, and then they'll almost weaponize them so threatened
to set the dog on the children, or set the

(42:37):
dog on the human adult victims, survivors. And for me,
that's one of the saddest things, is corrupting the dog's brain.
So when we talk about course of control of the human,
we also need to think about the impact that that
kind of behavior has on the animal as well, so
you're corrupting their who they are dead personality. So when

(42:58):
I talk about dog, I often talk about the legs model.
And this is a model that Kim Brophy kind of
launched it and it she's an American applied anthologist, and
it stands for learning, environment, genetics, and self and at
its center, it's wanting to understand that animals, not just dogs.
Animals are individuals, so their unique individuals. Just like every

(43:21):
human is different, every animal would be different. They have
their own personality. They also are sentient. So in the
UK we have the Animal Sentience Act twenty twenty two
which formally recognizes that not all anipals, but some animals,
in most of our companion animals have emotions. So what
that means is, just like children who are living in

(43:43):
an environment where there's a cuss ofic control and domestic abuse,
they are not only impacted physically, more often than that not,
they're impacted emotionally and psychologically and behaviory. And so what
I do is I just apply that similar vein to animals.
So I think gear we should start seeing animals as
victims of their own right, just like we have now

(44:04):
under the Domestic Abuse Act, we don't talk about children
being witnesses anymore. If they're living in an environment which
is courcivety controlling, we are the language changed to them
also anying victims. And I'd like to see that extended
to animals living in the household to represent the impact
that it can have on their emotions, on their ability

(44:28):
to function, and also from a neglect point of view.
So again, if they're not getting fed properly, they might
have or they're not allowed to have parasite prevention, so
they might have fleas and worms.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
They might have, you know.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Matts, So if they're a dog breed that should be
groomed regularly and they're not, they can get painful matting.
They might not might not be allowed to go out
to be walked, which is again something that basically they're
not allowing their natural behaviors to be exhibited, which is
very very harmful emotionally for the animal. So there's lots

(45:05):
of there's lots of different signs that kind of range
from emotional and behavioral, so lots of fear based behaviors,
all lots of appeasement behavior, so they will hide, they
might do a peace of behaviors of things like calmings,
lip licks where they'll kind of do that.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
They will.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
They might be kind of very clingy. They might have
a secure attachment in the non abusive caregiver, so they
might go to them just like a baby, like a
childhood brund to them to their month for security. One
of the cruelest things I've seen or heard perpetrators do
is prevent companionship. So the human animal bond is a
massive threat to a perpetrator because what they do is

(45:50):
they isolate. So you'll know this from like that they
don't want you to have friends and family outside of
them and their you know, their environment. Your animal is
a direct threat to that because they are living in
the same house. Even if you're not allowed to go
out of the house, you've got that animal to gain
some sort of comfort and friendship and love because that's

(46:10):
what they don't want you to have. So what they
will sometimes do is obviously they might forcibly rehome the animal,
they might get rid of the animal in another way
like for example, killing them, or they just won't allow
you to be in the same room as your animal.
And to me, that is almost like a torture tactic
because I'm thinking of my animals and thinking that i
could be upstairs and they're downsairs and I'm not allowed

(46:34):
to cuddle them or or go to them or comfort them,
or be in the same room as them. That is
psychologically very very harmful, So both you and the animal
as well.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, definitely something that's used. You know, family separation in
destructive cults. You know, parents aren't allowed to raise their
own children. Husbands and wives are separated, children are raised
by other adults. Lots of psychological, all emotional, and oftentimes
physical and sexual abuse of the children impact the parents

(47:05):
and the children significantly. You know, those secure attachments aren't
able to form for those born and raised in cults
that are separated from their parents, and that has a
detrimental impact on the psychological well being and future attachments
of that individual for the rest of their life. So
this is just this is just wild to think about

(47:31):
the idea of keeping I mean, my mind went straight
to how women in abusive relationships are significantly more at
risk of being killed when they are pregnant, and I
guess it's the same type of psychological thing that's happening

(47:52):
in this process. Of having an attachment to an animal
in the home. Yeah, so they do gift animals. It can.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
So you might be familiar with the eight Stages of
domestic homicide James and Smith's model, so which and you
know her book is very interesting as well. From kind
of a CCB into a partner view. What I did
was I looked at the eight Stages to domestic commicide
and it doesn't mention animals at all the original model.

(48:25):
So what I did was I added some how animals
would feature at each stage of the eight of the
eight stages to domestic homicide. And I'm also currently working
on the version for the suicide version, there's an eight
steps to domestic suicide, the spetul lated suicide. So what

(48:45):
I found was that you can look at each of
those stages and see where animals would fit into them.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
So, for example, or.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
In stage one, think of what was it called stage one,
which is like pre relationship. Often you will see they
might have a history of animal abuse, so they might
have a history of anombuse in another relationship, they might
have a childhood where they've you know, they've been harming animals,
or they will be involved in something that's related to

(49:16):
animal abuse, like you talked about dog fighting and things
like that potentially, So a really good example, not a
good example because it's horrendous, but the recent case of
the the ex partner. He went and he shot the
mum and the two daughters with a crossbow. I've seen

(49:36):
so much dialogue about that in couersitive Control. I said,
in my mind, there's going to be animal abuse there somewhere.
No one's reporting on it. So I did digging.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
I went digging around, and I found that he didn't
have a to my knowledge, he didn't have a known
history of analobus.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
I don't know if he was known to the RSPCA.
What I did find was a very short statement from
a friend of his that said, the one time they
were all sat together in you don't know, maybe a
house or something. They were all together as a friendship group,
and he was like laughing at a video of animal
abuse on his phone, and they all kind of thought like, oh,

(50:15):
that's really odd. And so I know that I will
find it. The problem is that when we don't ask
for it. So for example, with the domestic commicide, when
I developed the kind of how animals feature in the
eighth stages domestic homicide. I wanted to replicate Jane's studies.
So what I wanted to do was go to the
public access d hr records, read them and find out

(50:39):
how where animals featured in there. I couldn't for two reasons. One,
we don't ask about it in the form. There's no prompt,
So I responded SASA responded to the Public Consultation on DHRS,
and we recommended several things be added to the form
to prompt that. The second is when you go to
the day, I can't even search by the term animal,

(51:03):
so it's not even a recognized term in the search bar.
So I tried things like animal. I tried things like pet.
The problem with the word pet is that the word
perpetrator has the word pet in it, So I just
came up with millions of hits for perpetrator. So I
couldn't search by pet or animal or even dog or like.

(51:25):
I tried breaking it down, and I can't. There are
some I know that have included animal abuse, but that's
where it's like very obvious animal abuse, where it's like
dominated by animal abuse. Then they will talk about it
at the DHRUD Death Reviews but what I understand is
it's not always, it doesn't always look like that. We

(51:47):
need to start looking much more at the subtleties and
those things that we've just talked about, so you know,
not allow and take the animals to the vet, or
not allowing them to buy food. That's missing from the conversation.
It's all about the minute they focus on if that
If you know, there's loads of animals being killed, so
obviously they're going to talk about that because it's a
massive kind of hallmark and it's really obvious in that case.

(52:10):
But then most so what I say is if you
are a person living in a domestic abusive household and
there is an animal, that animal is a victim of
domestic abuse, just like the children. So when we think
about the statistically sixty percent of households in the UK
have a pet, mostly more than one pet of more
than one species. This is massive crossover numbers that we're

(52:34):
just not even looking at or thinking about or considering.
And that's again what that's our main kind of drive
is why are we only looking at like either the
extreme or we're ignoring it altogether. We need to be
looking holistically at the at the issue, which we're just
we're just not but animal abuse is a high risk

(52:54):
marker for domestic homicide, which is again why obviously they
ask about it on the dash trick by really mind
and how well that that question is really asked, and
how well most people who are doing things like the
risk assessments know themselves. So that's why we are delivering
training to all sectors on it.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
Wow, this is so fascinating Meye, some of your knowledge
is incredible. It's it's so vast just on this one subject,
and there are so many questions I prepped that I'm
not even going to have time to ask you about today.
I mean, if people want to hear you talk more
about it, they can come and meet as their crime
cone Dune. There's seventh and eighth in London. But some

(53:59):
of the things I did want to touch on before
we before we finished today. You've developed a dog abuse matrix.
Have you touched on that at all in anything you've
talked about.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
It's quite similar to when we talked talked about kind
of how how pub chittes use abuse is very similar.
So I think we've covered coming.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
In, but there is one that you've developed that is
accessible on your website if people wanted to take a look.
Is that right.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
Don't think the dog abuse matrix is public access at
the minute. What is public access is the compliance to
Partnership Planet model to living with Dogs that's available on
the website as an article that's not for That wasn't
written for people who intentionally abuse their animals. That was

(54:56):
written for your average dog person who loves their dogs,
but they don't necessarily have a great grasp of say,
natural canine behavior, and we're still as human beings, we
have this really high expectations on our dogs, and we
have a lot of compliance based mindset with our dogs regardless,

(55:18):
you know. So that's why I talk about it not
being intentional abuse, so people can go and have a
look at that. But that's way more general. But you know,
obviously people want to see it. I could, you know,
I might make it public access just finding the timed
upload to the website.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
You do. We can always update the listeners and I'll
link to your website in the episode description just in
case anybody wants to check out the website. Also, just yeah,
the idea of changing the nature of something that shouldn't
be changed in terms of trying to enforce an animal

(56:01):
to be compliant in a way that suits you, which
is against you know, for example, dogs a caninees behavior
makes me think of some of the things that former
Christian fundamentalist women have talked about on the podcast, with
things like blanket training, where you place a baby or
an infant on a blanket and if they roll off

(56:23):
the blanket, you you know, you spank the child or
you hurt the child and or the infant to try
and enforce compliance, you know, outside of the nature of
you know, because you can't expect an infant to it's
trying to learn how to roll, it's trying to learn
how to move, it's trying to learn how to be independent.

(56:44):
So that's kind of like, that's what that makes me
think of. And again just another example of how everything
crosses over and everything is linked together when it comes
to a course of control. Yeah, but with the.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
Dog abuse matrix, one of the things we haven't touched
on is a bad aversive dog training, and that links
exactly to what you're talking about. There so often people
who are so mark This is obviously my opinion only,
but my professional opinion is lots of people who use
aversive dog training. So punishment based dog training methods also

(57:20):
are probably perpetrators or have a perpetrator mindset with the
people in their life, so often their mentality will be
very respect based, so they will want the dog to
respect them and that will look like that unconditional compliance,
and they'll get to that through fear based.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
Methods because fear. The thing is that fear is a
very effective tactic.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
It's it's it's arguably the best tactic if you want
someone to do what you want them to do. It's
not kind, it's not empathetic, and it's not trum in
form which is why I don't agree with a versive
dog training. I've never used it, and I don't don't
recommend using it. But that what you're just talking about
there in terms of that's basically like punish's punishment based

(58:08):
methods and just the impact emotionally. So it's really important
to remember that, especially for dogs, they have the mental,
the emotional capacity, and cognitive capability of about a toddler.
So when you're doing things like alpha rolling, which is
when they all like pin the dog the dog does
something on there like pin the dog down until it

(58:29):
stops struggling to.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Show that they're the bar. It's so ridiculous. You have
to laugh because it's just so ridiculous. That's like holding
a child and like you know, you know, being really
rough with the child and emotionally that really is harmful
to both children and to dogs. But in dogs are
using as like an electric collar, you know, the shock colors,
or a prong collar, or they just have these massive

(58:56):
expectations on the animal to like do what they want
them to do and not let them be who they.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Are like naturally. So it's really really upsetting. But I
personally think that there's a massive link between those who
gravitate towards aversive dog training methods and those who are
perpetraces of you.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
Not everyone that. So, so there are some that use
a versive dog training methods because they don't know any better,
and they're not who I'm talking about, because it's not
it's not fair if you're if you're there are still
such a split in the dog training world. So if
you were to google something basic like, for example, toilet training,
they you might still get things come up like, oh,

(59:37):
rub their nose in it, and that will teach them
that they shouldn't, you know, poop in the house or whatever. Unfortunately,
there's still a lot a lot of that around. Some
people who aren't abusive will do it because they think
that that's the right thing to do. There's a difference
between them and people that get almost like a kick
out of do it. They And that's the difference between

(59:59):
the dog abuse matrix and the compliance the partnership Planet
models to live in with dogs. The dog beest matrixes
those people that get kick out of it and kind
of get feed off that power and that control. The
Planet model is for people who who just don't have
very good awareness, but they want to do better. Yeah. Oh,

(01:00:19):
it's just wild to me that when you talk about like,
you know, oh, they've had an accident, so wipe their
face in. It could be applicable to animals, children, and adults.
I mean, if you take out the you know, the
the defining words dog, child, you know, adult, it could

(01:00:43):
be it could just be interchangeable. So I see exactly
what you mean, you know, about the need to move
out of the silos and just look at all of
these things holistically. But before we finish today, there's some
exciting things to talk about. Out. I want to highlight
your future projects and plans and let listeners know about

(01:01:05):
what you've got in the works before asking you to
give any final messages to the listeners in regards to
the work that you do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's
a really exciting time for SASTA. There's been so much growth,
you know, in the last year, and even especially you know,

(01:01:27):
only we're coming out of month three now, but even
in this the first three months of twenty twenty five
has been full of meetings and plans. The biggest coolest
plans I can't really talk at the moment because they're
kind of underapt, very early stages where it's important to
keep it kind of confidential, but that might pique interest,

(01:01:49):
you know, people interested in finding out more about the projects,
and like you said, they can follow us.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
Some of the things we can talk about is obviously
we've launched some new training so are reducing dog bite
risk for professionals centering homes. So that's for people like
policing and social services and you go into homes with
dogs that are stressed. So that's just getting them to
understand a bit more about dog body language, how to

(01:02:18):
interact with dogs in a safe way that they don't know.
We also will be launching at some point this year
our e learning platform. So some of our other trainings
the Pause Champions which is our flagship training, which is
recognizing and responding to campaigning, and we abuse as a
tactic of course of control. That will be also available

(01:02:38):
through e learning. Because we're international, so some people can't
stay up to do our hours of learning and I
certainly can't do you know, midnights or seven training.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
I would be not very good at staying away. We
are also working. I'm on the working.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Group for Ruby's Law, which is a campaign which is
moving or it's starting to include animals explicitly in Family
Law Act protections, so non molestation orders, occupation orders, et cetera,
so that we will have we should have that as
a default that we include animals within some protection orders.

(01:03:18):
And I'm also working at the moment, got a few
meetings in around extending that to things like stalking protection orders,
so that we're really including animals across across the sector,
really in both protections. Broaster doing some work on housing
and pets because obviously animals are a massive barrier to

(01:03:40):
leaving domestic abusive relationships because many places private renting don't
accept pets. Refugees often don't accept pets are a few exceptions,
and we know that being separated from your animal is
extremely traumatic for both the animal and the human. So
many many survivors at to ninety five percent will not

(01:04:02):
leave unless they know that the animal is also safe,
or they will return to check on that animal, which
obviously increases risk because they're going back. That is not
a judgment on people that do that, who we see
victim blaming around the words it's that bad. Why do
they go back? Often it may be because they care

(01:04:22):
about the animals if there are animals there. So we're
doing some work with the Domestic BEEAs Housing Alliance to
try and get more pet for any options for the
general public, because it shouldn't be that if you have
an animal, you're less likely to find a house or
more likely to become homeless. But especially in cases where

(01:04:43):
there's domestic reason of course of control is looking at
what are some sustainable, innovative solutions to helping people feel
like they can leave safely with their animal. We're also
doing some work on animals actual abuse. So the legislation
in the UK is not as good as it could be.

(01:05:06):
The way that we police animal sexual abuse is also
quite poor. So both within an intimate partner so animals
actually be within an intimate partner settings, but also outside
of that. So really we liken a lot of animal
sexually abuse to almost like child sexual to be swhere
often it's the caregiver that the male caregiver abusing the

(01:05:29):
animal sexually. We also know that there are very sophisticated
animal sexual abuse rings. It's similar to our rings. And
again it's just something that no one's talking about, no
one's looking at, no one's researching. But really, most of all,
we want animals to be seen as victims in their
own right, so we'll be pushing for if we can't

(01:05:51):
get that in legislation, that that is the best practice
that we include animals.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
So you don't sound like you're very busy, You don't
sound like you're thinking about, you know, all the ways
that animals feed into the legislation that we have, and
how things could be amended and changed, and how things
can be enhanced to encapsulate more demographics of individuals, whether

(01:06:23):
they be human or not. And that makes me think
about all the efforts that are going into, you know,
the lobbying efforts that are going into amending Section seventy
six of the Serious Crime Act to include group course
of control and the coercion of children. You know, just
more things that are missing. The Serious Crime Act touches

(01:06:46):
on animals, but all it really says is animals may
be used as addict to isolate and control individuals through fear,
threat and intimidation. But it doesn't really go into the
impact that that may have on the animals or you know,
the children if there are children present, and you know

(01:07:08):
how that may restrict a person from leaving their home
in the same way financial coercion and abuse might stop
a person from leaving their home. So we are pioneering
in our country. We're very lucky to be at the
forefront of legislation that criminalizes behavior like coercive control. We

(01:07:28):
have a long way to go, and it is amazing
that we have minds like yours on the case in
looking at all of this legislation and figuring out how
we can make it better. You're going to smash your PhD.
You're going to be doctor Mayer. And I was so
excited and I can't wait to hang out with you
in London on Dune the seventh and eighth for Crime

(01:07:49):
Con UK, where I believe we'll be doing a panel
together on the intersectionality of coercive control and how it
is broader than intimate partner of ours, which I'm really
looking forward to. Yeah, yeah, me too. Thank you so much, Maya.
I really appreciate you and your time today. I'll put
the links to your website in the episode description, keep

(01:08:11):
us posted on anything else that we might be able
to help you promote in the future on this podcast,
and I will see you in a couple of months. Great,
thanks so much, Take care, bye bye,