Uncovering the Dark Side of English Nursery Rhymes

In this episode of the Cult Vault Podcast, host Kacey speaks with Brittany, a writer who shares her journey of overcoming dyslexia to write her book, 'Whispers in the Cradle.' Brittany discusses the dark origins of nursery rhymes, the true crime elements intertwined with children's stories, and the challenges she faced during her writing process. The conversation also touches on the importance of research, the support from her family, and advice for aspiring writers.



Brittany's Book 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to the Cult Vault podcast, your dedicated
podcast for uncovering the darkest corners of cults and coercive control.
I'm your host, Casey, and I want to start by
thanking each and every one of you for tuning in.
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Before we get started, a word of caution. Today's episode

(00:22):
may contain discussions on abuse, including graphic descriptions of abuse,
and covers a variety of human rights violations that may
be triggering for some listeners. Please consider this as a
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(00:42):
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(01:03):
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(01:24):
every pledge not only gives you exclusive access but also
directly supports the continuation of this work. Thank you again
for your support and your listenership. Now let's unlock the vault. Hello, Hello,
hello listeners, and welcome back to another episode of the
Cult Fault podcast. I think it's nice to take a

(01:46):
break from some of the real world issues and real
difficult themes of this podcast that we talk about on
a weekly basis, and so when this person approached me
with their writing and asked if we could have a chat,
I was really excited at the idea of breaking up

(02:06):
the content a little bit and bringing something new to
the podcast. So Hello, I'm welcome to the show. Brittany.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Hello, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
I usually start the first part of the podcast by
asking each guest to introduce themselves to the listeners.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Okay, so I'm Brittany. I am here in the States.
I was born in Illinois, raised and grew up in Colorado,
so that was where I am currently. I am a
huge book dragon. I love to read a bit of
an introvert, so this is kind of new for me.

(02:44):
I love spending time with my family. I'm a huge
family oriented person and love all things spooky. Have a dog,
he's my baby, and I love anything to do with
the water, so that's kind of me in a nutshell.
Love to read, love to do all the things, the
spooky things, and hang out with the family.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
The fourth of July, I don't know if you're patriotic.
I realized the irony of an English person saying that
to an American person on July the fourth, Well, thank you.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yesterday was actually my birthday, so I'm a I'm gonna
be ready to go after this.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
So yeah, it's a week, a week and weekend of celebrations.
I've messaged a lot of my friends over the water
just saying happy Fourth as well. I remember being over
in New Jersey one year for the Fourth of July
and we'd rented just like a beach house and there
was loads of people at their beach houses, you know

(03:41):
that they that they go to regularly, and they were
absolutely like they thought it was the funniest thing where
they're like, oh my god, it's a Brillian I thought,
and I were like, we just got away from you.
That's why we woul drink out these beers today.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, we realixuari only on a little bit.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
It's a yeah. I think that that some of the
toning up is one of the reasons why I really
enjoy visiting visiting certain areas of America. But yeah, it
is the fourth of July today. I don't know if
there's any spooky stories related to that particular date, unless
you're talking about actual history. It's a bit spooky at

(04:23):
times when you're looking at the devastation of certain countries,
including the one that I live in now. But you've
mentioned spooky and water. I can think of a few
times those two things crossover. I went for a cold
water swim today in a big open lake and you

(04:44):
can't see the bottom because the water's not clear. And
as I was swimming, I got right in the zone
and I was like, you know, I got my breathing regulated.
I was like, oh wow, I could swim all day
and as I was going, my leg kicked something like
hard and round under the water. So I started like
flailing my arms and legs, and as I kicked my

(05:05):
leg out, it hit it again. So I was like, oh,
my gosh, that feels like a body. I was freaking
out in the middle of this lake where I couldn't
like swim back and I couldn't swim forward to get
to shore quickly. I was like right in the middle.
It turned out that some of the other people that
I was swimming with have also swam into this. It's

(05:27):
like a boy like a booie in the water that's
half sunken, half submerged. You can't see it, but it's
not low enough that you can avoid it if you're
swimming over it. So that's what happened. But that was
my spooky water story of this week. Do you find
those two things crossover a lot in your work?

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Not necessarily in my work. The water in spooky I
haven't come across it yet, but definitely like I love
the water, but I if I can't see the bottom,
I'm a little leery because there's something down there.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
Like, yeah, if I don't know what it is, you know,
so yeah, no, no, I try not to think about
it when I get in the water, just because I
love the water so much.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
But right I was like, not gonna think about it.
I'm just gonna swim. I'm really loving this swim. And
then it happened, and I was like, oh, this is it.
HiT's the thing. I'll hit the thing that's in the water,
whatever it is, the unnamed like objects that's just floating
underneath you. Honestly, it freaked me out. But anyway, moving

(06:37):
on from my woes of the day, I'm hoping next
time I get back in the lake, I'll just be
able to put it past me and swim kind of
in the other half of the lake, away away from
this thing that's supposedly just out out there under the water. Anyway,
we've talked a little bit about your diagnosis of dyslexia

(07:03):
and how that has really interwoven with the work that
you do. So being a writer and having a diagnosis
of dyslexia, how do you think your journey into writing
has maybe looked different for people without that diagnosis.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
Well, I'm going to be honest, writing was never it
was never in my cards as much as I loved
to read. I struggled very very badly as a kid.
Came home with a list written backwards, a spelling list.
That's when my parents kind of knew something was different.
It took me what took my older sister, and she's

(07:44):
a speed reader, what took her a day to read
took me a month two months to read. So but
I loved to read, so it never really deterred me.
I got down on myself, but I definitely I writing
was never going to be something I did. And then

(08:05):
you know, I ended up hearing someone tell me that
The Muffin Man was based off of a serial killer,
and me being me, I had to look it up
and sure enough he was. So that kind of got
things rolling where I started looking into them and doing
some research and decided, you know what, let's do it there.

(08:27):
What what do you have to lose? You know, if
it doesn't happen, it doesn't go anywhere, then it doesn't happen.
But then as I started progressing in my writing, I
was like, oh, okay, this is fun. You know, I
had someone who could edit it for me in case.
You know, spelling is horrible for dyslexit people. If I

(08:48):
don't have a dictionary or my phone to help me
auto correct. I have so many spelling errors it's not
even funny.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
So you say that you went to look into the
Muffin Man and this story was true. What did you
find out when you Because that's the first time I'm
hearing this, so now I'm interested in, like what that
research looks like.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
So I don't remember if I read it in a
book or someone had mentioned it to me, but they
made that claim that the Muffin Man was based off
of a serial killer, and I called the s I
went online. I googled it and then I found you know, Wikipedia,
which I know Wikipedia you can't really trust, but I
was like, all right, let's start there. I looked at it.
That got my interests piqued even more. So then I

(09:31):
started looking for different different sites and books and things
that I could find to tell me more about this
Muffin Man. And he actually was known as the Drear
Lane Dicer. Oh yes, and he was one of the
first serial killers in London, so or the one of

(09:52):
the first like noted serial killers in London. So that
really piqued my interest and I kept digging into him,
and then he fell off my radar because I was like, Oh,
that's that's neat, that's cool, Okay, back to life, and
then it fell off my radar.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Well.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Then I was having a conversation with my mom about
true crime because we're both true crime buffs, and she
mentioned something. I was like, Oh, did you know the
Muffin Man is based off of a serial killer? It
was like this fun little tidbit that I could just
share with people because I knew and she goes, yeah,
and ring around the rosies based off the plague. I

(10:30):
was like, well, everybody knows that. And then that just
kind of stuck and I just sat there and thought
about it, and I was like, how many people really
know that? How many are really that dark? Because London
Bridge fell down, so obviously there's something dark there. Ring
around the rosie, the muffin Man, how many are that dark?

(10:50):
So then I started thinking about it fell off the
radar again, and I was actually listening to a different
podcast and they they deep dive into things, and so
I kind of took a page off out of their
book and I ended up getting laid off of my job,
my career of over ten years, was looking for a

(11:11):
new job, fighting with unemployment, had all this time on
my hands and decided to revisit my friend the Muffin Man.
And then when I got about ten deep, that's when
I looked at it and I was like, you know what,
you have something here. You're having a blast researching all
of this stuff. It's fascinating to you, it's spooky. Someone

(11:33):
else is going to find it just as fascinating. So
let's do something. Let's write a book. And that's kind
of how it all started.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
When you attend Deep, how many like off the top
of your head, like old myths, fables, nursery rhymes, can
you rail off the rooted in like either real life
events or inspired by things that probably did happened, So
we know the.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
Big ones, you know, London Bridge, the Muffin Man. I
had a feeling Mary, Mary quite contrary was one, so
it turns out it was. And so it was three
blind mice, and those two were actually interconnected. Georgie Porgie
Peter Peter pumpkin Eater. I had a feeling that one

(12:26):
was probably dark because he talks about putting his wife
in a pumpkin. So I was like, it's might have
a true crime origin. The Three Little Pigs for obvious reasons.
So I mean there were there were quite a few
that I kinda I had an idea that they would
be dark, so I had a place to start, and

(12:48):
then from there I just I kept going. I started
looking up rhymes that I I knew but wasn't sure,
and to see if they had a true crime origin,
and if I found that it did, I kind of
wrote it down and put it aside and then went
to the next one. So I found all of the rhymes,
some of them I didn't even know, and figured, just

(13:12):
because I'm here in the States, I might not know it,
but you know, other people might and were in different places.
So just because I don't know it doesn't mean someone
else in you know, New York might not know it,
or the UK might not know it. So I wrote
them all down, and then when I had my list,
because I wasn't sure how many I was going to do,

(13:32):
I wasn't sure how long the book was going to
be or the chapters. I knew I wanted each chapter
to be its own rhyme. Then I started going back
and I started doing the research, and when I found
one that was particularly dark or fascinating. I stopped and
I just spent days hours researching and getting all my notes,

(13:56):
and then I sat down and I wrote it.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
I can see that, I can see, you know, my
kids are our little little kids still there. They're four
and five, and I can definitely see myself, you know,
getting a bit worried about telling them nursery rhymes or

(14:20):
stories in too much detail. You know, the three little pigs.
It's great if they all get to safety in the
brick house, you know, but it's a bit it's a
bit difficult to tell the story if the kids, if
the piggies are getting eaten by the wolf along the way,
or you know, the wolf blows the house down, but

(14:41):
the pig's okay. You just don't kind of like, you know,
you don't balance the story too much to say I
read the pig wasn't eaten by the wolf because he
built a house out of rubbish sticks. Also, I find that,
like Little Red Ridinghood, she's wandering through the woods alone.
I don't like the idea of telling my kids that,

(15:02):
you know, kids should roam through the woods on their own.
And then obviously that's such a dark story. Not only
is her grandma actually a wolf. The wolf has eaten
her grandma, and he's got like a big swollen belly
like and then and then my I don't know in
some iterations like the grandma is cut out of the

(15:24):
wolf's belly. There's like really dark so and Hansel and
Gretel really fun story up until it's not all of
these things. I've thought this to myself, like, oh, actually,
I'm not too sure about those stories in their kind
of full length versions are kind of like the sanitized
version where but they are they are four children. So

(15:46):
I don't know if you have any idea of the
history of that sort of movement of like the grim Tails,
and you know how how that happened, where it started
or anything like that, just any historical context.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
So I don't have historical context. I have my own
theory as to how it got from. These are really
dark and this is our history, and we're passing this
along because this is our truth and we need people
to know about it because they're warnings. That's really what
they were created for. It was they didn't have cell phones,
they didn't have the internet, They had no way to

(16:22):
tell other people other than these rhymes. These stories that
they would tell. So I feel like we all it's
kind of like the game of telephone. So you get
one person who doesn't like what someone said and they
change it for fun, or they don't like what was said,

(16:44):
so they make it their own. They give it just
a little bit of flair, and by the time it
gets all the way to the end to us here
in you know, now our time, it's different. It's fluffed up,
it's softer, it's more child friendly, whereas before it was
this is about the plague ring around the Rosy. That

(17:08):
one was huge because towns would be wiped out because
of the plague and you'd never hear of this town again.
So it was their way of keeping people alive, telling
people about what was going on in all of these
places and all of this poverty. So now because we
didn't really we didn't experience that. Now it's just a

(17:29):
fun little rhyme where kids get to spend in a
circle and then we all fall down and we giggle
and we have fun. You don't realize it wasn't that
fun because it wasn't a song to dance to. It
was a story and a warning. So that's my theory.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Is it was.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
It was truly it was a story. It was a
warning that was passed, and it was their truth, their
way of telling their truth, because you know, when you
get people in power, sometimes they tell their side and
the other side they don't get heard. So it was
a way to tell their truth and their story and
to warn people. And now it's just so far removed

(18:10):
that it's a fun little game.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Makes me think of the Lizzie Borden rhyme. I guess
that's kind of like an actual, not a modern but
a kind of newer version of a horrific tragic event
that took place and a quirky little rhyme came out
of it. In the late eighteen hundreds of Lizzie Borden

(18:54):
took an axe and gave her mother forty wax, and
when she saw what she had done, she gave her
father forty one. So you might hear a kid doing
that in the playground with some cool little hand movements
with a partner, you know, those kind of like partner
clapping games, and think it just sounds like a like
a quirky little rhyme, But actually the history behind it

(19:16):
is very dark, and you've just done this over and
over and over with all of these different stories that
you've put in your book Whispers in the Cradle.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yes, yeah, So.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
Is it like fictionalized breakdowns of each one or is
it an actual like nonfiction, like here's the rhyme in
this chapter and here's the history, or talk us through
how you've kind of laid it out. So I did it.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
I wanted it to be a true crime, So it
is nonfiction. It's all the history and the facts that
I could find on it, because that just fascinated me.
While I think it would be fun to do a
story my dad actually wants me to do like a
story story, a fictional story. I just found all of
the facts in the history behind it all so fascinating

(20:08):
that I couldn't I couldn't make it fictional. I had
to stay true to the facts and the history because
I thought that people would enjoy the actual story behind it.
Not I mean, while they might enjoy something that's made
up and fun and dark, because there are some spooky

(20:29):
people out there like me, but I feel like there
are enough people that they get that little taste of
history and they're like, oh, I didn't know that well,
and then it makes them think a little bit more
and then maybe they do their own research and see
if they can find something different about the same thing
that I wrote about, because there's so much animation out there.

(20:50):
So yeah, I stayed true to the crimes itself.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
Periods in time. Is that like a period where the
majority of these events happened or is it like kind
of spread across different time periods.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
It's kind of spread against different time periods. Just because
I just chose a bunch of different rhymes, I do
know that they're they all kind of have the same
theme or similar themes. So you know, a lot of
them have to do with a monarchy, a lot of
them have to do with the industrial revolution, some of
them have to do with exploitation and of people, children, females.

(21:36):
I did find that a few times when I was researching,
and it was interesting because you know, you hear about
it today, but way back in the day, I feel
like it was different. And I say way back in
the day, I guess it wasn't way back, but it
was far enough removed that you don't really think about it.
And I feel like it's changed since then, Like now

(21:59):
people are aware of it. People it still happens, but
people are definitely trying to find ways to get out
of those situations, whereas back then you heard about it,
and if you were lower class, you just you had
no choice. You either went with it or something bad

(22:20):
happened and you kept your mouth shut. And that's just
the way it was. So I did find that a
few times in my research, and I found that fascinating.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Is it has it been difficult to kind of look
at the true crime side of things and try and
keep it like I don't know where you stand on this,
but trying to keep it like ethical and not try
and not sensationalize it too much, or to really dig
into your research and find the core elements of the

(22:54):
actual truthfulness in each of those cases and not just
the you know, the mayor stand out headlines where maybe
not all the facts were accurate.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
I really did try and do my research and stay
removed because I knew that these were so far back
in history, you know, I knew that there was going
to be documentation. I was going to find things. I mean, yeah,
sometimes it was a little bit of you kind of
read between the lines, but I really tried to stay

(23:26):
away from that because this is it's true crime, it's factual.
I don't want to put any of all of the
headlines that we've got today, you know, I didn't want
to push that in here, because that wasn't what this
was about. That wasn't what the research told me. So
I felt like I really tried to stay away from
that and stick with the actual history and the facts

(23:48):
that I found, as opposed to trying to slip things
in and be like, oh, but this person was higher
up on the food chain, so of course they did
all of these things.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
It was no.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
This person was higher up on the food chain, and
you know they had the backing of someone even more powerful,
and there's research behind he used to do all of
these things. Here's an example. So I really did try
and stick with the facts.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
And when you were doing your research, did you have
like a process that you would go through. Did you
have tools or programs or things that would help you
go through all of the reading and things to support
you with dyslexia?

Speaker 4 (24:29):
No?

Speaker 2 (24:29):
Actually, so I had a little notebook that I started
with that I have a little bit of OCD two.
So when I make a mistake and I have to
cross something out, I'm like you're done, You're in the trash.
I can't I can't look at you anymore. So this
notebook that I had, it was all horrible hodgepodge of

(24:52):
a mess, like I had notes up at the top,
I had scratched things out, I had notes on the side.
And when I looked back at it, it gave me
a little bit of anxiety looking at it, going oh,
how are we going to put this into words? And
so then I was like, you know what, let's put
it all on the computer and then we can go

(25:14):
through and it'll look pretty when we're moving things around.
And so I did that. I ended up typing everything
up onto the computer. I did have a function on
my word where I could talk into it and it
would write it for me, which was really nice, except
when I would forget that I had it on and

(25:34):
I'd be having a conversation with somebody.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Much like four four pages of and then you're like,
hang on a minute, well how much if this is research?

Speaker 2 (25:45):
I'm like, gosh, darn it, now you have to figure
out where it started. So that, I mean, while that
was funny, it happened more than once because I would
always forget to turn it off. But that was probably
my saving grace when I went from the notebook that
gave me anxiety to putting it on my computer and

(26:07):
writing and then using that function. But I didn't I
didn't have a way to know, like something to tell
me how many times I used a phrase, or you know,
was I getting repetitive and redundant and those types of things.
So I actually went to upwork and I looked at

(26:30):
all of the people who did editing, their credentials, I
read some of their samples, and then I reached out
to someone and said, Hey, got this book that I'm
working on getting published, and I need someone to edit
it for me. I need someone to do that double check,
make sure there aren't terrible spelling errors that I missed
in my you know, my my spell check, and then

(26:52):
I want to make sure that it flows well and
it's not redundant. So I had someone do that portion
for me, and like when they came back with the directions,
I went through and I made those, But I didn't
have other than that one thing for word. I didn't
have anything to help me write it with my dyslexia.
And I do have to say I think that probably

(27:14):
was a good thing that I didn't have something to
do it for me only because it made me. It
made me think and work harder for it, which I
think made me appreciate it more, if that makes sense.
I was able to articulate things better, and while sometimes

(27:35):
it was frustrating because I just it sounds really good
in your head and then you get it on paper
and you're like, that is so not what I was
trying to say. So it was a little frustrating sometimes,
but I feel like me having to do that myself
without the help prepared me for maybe doing the next

(27:56):
one and knowing all of the pitfalls that I went through,
being able to do it differently a little bit differently.
I did find different software that will actually format it
for me after the fact, and I'm like, yeah, the
things you don't know because you don't know.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's That's one of the nice
things about going and meeting up with other podcasters, you know,
and sharing sharing tips and tricks with each other, because
if you're struggling with something, the chances are somebody else
has had that problem and found a solution to it,
and then they'll share it with you and you're like, oh,
my gosh, this is life changing, right, So I do

(28:37):
like to ask you know, people about the tips and
tricks for their respective crafts, because you never know who's listening,
who might be thinking, I actually really suffer with dyslexia
and I don't know how to put onto paper this
brilliant idea that I have, and I am really looking
forward to asking you some more questions about that as well.

(28:58):
But I read in your emails to me that you
wrote this book in secret for two years. I did.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
I didn't tell anybody I was writing it because at
first I wasn't sure if it was going to go anywhere.
I wasn't sure if I really was going to publish,
because I knew publishing can get expensive and all the things.
And while I did look into it to make sure
that I had the capital to do it, I was nervous.

(29:26):
I didn't know how it was going to turn out.
I didn't know if halfway through I was going to
peter out and be like, oh, well, just kidding, we
don't want to do this anymore. This isn't as good
as I thought it was. Let's just scrap it. So
I wasn't sure. But I also didn't want the pressure.

(29:47):
With being dyslexic and it being my very first book,
I knew my family would be extremely supportive. I also
knew that they would start asking me about it, Oh
where are you at, Oh what did you find out?
Oh this, oh this, And while I would have loved that,
because there were a few times where I found something
in my research and all I wanted to do was

(30:08):
share it with someone, and I couldn't because I just
didn't want one. I didn't want to give anything away.
I wanted it to be a bit of a surprise.
But I didn't want in my head that kind of
pressure because I don't think they would ever pressure me
like that. That's not how my family is. They're extremely supportive.
It's just more I get into my own head and

(30:30):
then it's okay, well now you got a deadline. Okay,
now you have to do this, and you have to
do this. And I wasn't sure how long it was
going to take me, so I really tried to keep
it close to the chest, and I didn't tell anyone
until Christmas of this last year.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
So you sat down and presented your family with a manuscript.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Actually, so my younger sister figured out that I was
writing a book and she wasn't supposed to, but it
kind of was my fault. So she actually helped figure
out the final title for my book. I was at
that final stage. I was getting ready to send it
in to do the final editing and everything, and I

(31:14):
needed a title, and so I went to her and
I said, Hey, if you went to a bookstore and
you saw these ten titles, which one would you choose?
And her immediate reaction was are you writing a book?
And I was like, yes, but you're not supposed to know,
so keep your mouth shut. She's like, I promise I

(31:34):
won't tell anybody. Can I make a suggestion? I said,
please do? And I believe she changed the word for
cradle because I think I had something else. And she's like,
what if you did whispers like in the cradle because
they're nursery rhymes and their stories for children. And I
was like, oh my god, I love that. Can I
steal it? She goes, absolutely, it's pretty creepy.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
The word cradle makes me like I used the one
about the cradle in the tree that's a sad story
as well. Yes.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
So then I was like, okay, well, I gave you
something really special. For her because she did help me
with this title and that I feel like it made
the title just changing one word, and so I decided
I wanted to give her the very first copy that
I got once it was published. And unfortunately it didn't happen.

(32:25):
It didn't get published in time. I didn't get it
to the publisher in time, and so I was like,
you know what, we're going to print out the final manuscript.
So I printed it out. I stuck it in her
gift because she I got her something else too, stuck
it in there, wrapped it up, and Christmas morning came
around and everyone's opening their gifts and she opened it
and she goes, this is really heavy, and she looked

(32:47):
at me. She goes, is this your book? And I
just looked at her and I nodded, and my dad
did a double take because he heard it but it
was kind of loud. And then she pulled it out
and she got alteria and she goes, this is your book?
You finished it? And I said yes, and everybody stopped.
It was like you could hear a pin drop. And
my family looked at me and they went, wait, you

(33:07):
wrote a book, he said, I did, and it's going
to the publishers within the next couple of weeks. So, yeah,
I wrote a book and they were so surprised, so excited,
couldn't wait to get a copy when it was published.
And yeah, I didn't tell anybody until Christmas morning, and

(33:28):
they found out when my sister started crying.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
It's such a wholesome Christmas, that is.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
And you know when you Christmas is always nice, and
you know, well for most people. For some people it
can be extremely retraumatizing and triggering, and I don't want
to kind of wash over that. But Christmas typically it
can be, you know, very wholesome, faunny time. But January
it's very tough, doomy and gloomy, and everyone's broke, and
the weather's robbish and the days ashore and the weather's cold.

(33:59):
But you have a book published in January, So that
was like really exciting to have it just off to Christmas.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yes, it was definitely very exciting. And it was funny
because when it did get published and I got the email,
I told my family. I came over with some champagne
and I was like, guess what happened? It published?

Speaker 1 (34:23):
So wholesome?

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Then, yes, And then I invited everybody over to reveal
it to everybody. And funny story, I went on too
Amazon to get it two day shipping and all of
that fun stuff. Well, it told me that I wouldn't
get it because I wanted the hardcover. I wouldn't get
it for five days. I was like, oh, everyone's coming

(34:45):
over on Saturday. I won't have it in time. No
big deal. So I got the e book. Well, then
I went on and it said two days for the paperback,
and I was like, fine, so I have one of
every version of my book, and it showed up ten
minutes before everybody got to my house. I was following
the Amazon man because I needed that physical book so

(35:09):
I could put it on display and surprise everybody.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
It's not in sected you copies of your own book.
What's rougher here? I see people doing unboxing videos of
their own books where they get given loads of copies
to like sign and hide away and bookstores and libraries
and stuff. What happened here? You're going You're going to Amazon,
the Big you know, some people call it the Big Book,

(35:51):
the book Killers, the killers of the book industry, and
you will happy to buy your own book from them.
What what.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
Well, So the publisher I went through is an online
publisher and they did send me an email and said,
if you want to buy more than ten copies, use
this email. And I was like, I just want a copy.
They said, if you're getting one to two copies, Amazon's
your best bet. So because I went through an online publisher,
it was a little different than going through one of

(36:19):
the big publishers that they get you all of this
stock and all of the things that's all included in
their in their kind of price point. I guess, so mine,
you know, they did what I needed them to do.
It got it out to everybody, and it for They
formatted it for me because I couldn't figure out how
to format to save my life.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
So that odds fair enough, right. It's hard to get published.
It's tricky, Like I don't know if you have any
tips or tricks about that particular process, but I know
how many people have manuscripts ready and just nobody to approach.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Well. I did find there is a program out there
that I found through an author friend that I met
through another friend, and it's called Atticus and it's for windows.
There's another one I don't remember what it is for Mac,
but it's similar. Atticus works for both, but it will

(37:21):
format for you so you can just type right into it,
kind of like a word document. Or if you already
have your manuscript in a word format, you can upload
it to Atticus and it will split it out for you,
but it will format it all for you, so it's
ready for you to send out to Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Ingram, Spark,

(37:41):
all of those places. You can send it out to them,
and because they're their own printer, it's already ready formatted
for them. So that one was a big one that
I found that I didn't know, which is the reason
I went through a publisher. Found out you don't necessarily
need a publisher. While it's nice to have one, you
can do it yourself. I am finding that I am

(38:04):
self promoting, so I know publishers, some of them have
marketing teams and all of those things that will do
all of that stuff for you, Whereas if you do
it yourself, you're doing the legwork. You're not just putting
it online and waiting for the money to roll in.
You're really doing that legwork of social media posts and

(38:25):
reaching out to podcasts or libraries I reached out to
a couple libraries that said they were going to acquire
my book. So the legwork is it's not easy, but
you know, if you want, if you want it to
go somewhere, you do it. So I would say, if

(38:46):
you're not going to go through a publisher, and I
would do your research on the publisher, then just know
that you're the one who's going to be doing your.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Legwork.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
You're going to be doing your own promote, your own
you know, getting banners and things like that made. You're
going to be the one doing those things. And I
do agree, it's fun. It's a lot of work. It's tiring,
but I've learned so much that I wouldn't have learned

(39:20):
if I hadn't just done it right.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yeah, yeah, I've found that process a lot with podcasts
in but gosh, it doesn't have to take some time
to get, you know, to where we're both are now.
It's a lot of legwork and it doesn't really ever stop.
There's always new tools, there's always new programs, there's always
new contacts, there's always new things to be learning in

(39:47):
both of those respective industries. But your family's reaction to
you writing a book and publishing a book. I mean
it sounds really wholesome and supportive of them, a bit
put out that you hadn't included them in the process
of writing a book.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
No, actually they were. They were floored that I wrote
a book just because they know I'm dyslexic. My dad
actually told me when he finished reading it, he said,
not that he didn't think that I could write because
I'm such a huge book dragon. He said, it had
nothing to do with that. He was so impressed that

(40:27):
it was so well thought and so in depth and
some of the things that I said. He was just
so impressed he almost made me cry. I might have
squeaked out a tear or two. But it was funny
because after I had published and everyone was so excited,
I had literally just published, and my dad looks at

(40:50):
me and he goes, sorr, are you gonna write another one?
Oh my gosh, And I looked at Hi, my wet
well time out here. I just pobulish, Let's let's see
how this one does before I commit. And like a
week later, I was like, you know, I got the
writing bugs, so I'm writing another one.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Oh, hey, just enjoy. You knows I could read another
part of them, oh so lovely. When you were doing
your research for your writing, what was the most surprising
thing you found across any of these stories, What the
biggest thing that made you go, WHOA, I did not
expect that.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
I Well, I think the biggest thing was how truly
dark they were. Like I when I when I was
pulling them up and I was researching them and I
saw that they were dark and had true crime stories
behind them, I was like, Okay, they're dark, let's let's
do this. But as I would research each one and
get further and further into the story at the history,

(41:57):
I was truly floored by how dark they were. Like
the jury, Lane Dicer, the muffin man, they talk about
exactly what he did to the children, which I I
had no words, and I just kind of looked at
it for a few minutes before I could even move

(42:18):
past it, just going oh, okay, I mean that would
that would definitely give him his nickname. But I mean
the truly, how truly dark they became. That was my
biggest shocker moment. Was it wasn't it, and it wasn't
just one, it was multiple that they were truly that dark,

(42:43):
you know, talking about torture and the kinds of torture
and it Yeah, yeah, it floored me.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
Did you find yourself out how much to take a
few breaks now and then from some of the research
because it was because it was gang not dark?

Speaker 2 (42:59):
No, And I I think I think the reason that
I didn't have to take breaks other than rest breaks
was because they were so far removed, because they weren't
like twenty years ago, fifty years ago. It was hundreds
of years ago. You know, it was so far back

(43:20):
that you you can kind of relate, but not really.
You know, you're like, oh that, it's one of those
where you do the oh that would never happen to me.
Oh that that's so far removed, that's never going to happen,
you know. So I feel like that's kind of where
my brain went when I was researching and they got
that dark. It was the this is so long since

(43:43):
it happened, you know, that person's gone, so they can't
do it again, so it's okay. Yeah, I don't think
my brain ever really went there. I think if I
did nursery rhymes that are more recent, I think I
would probably have to take a break because there are

(44:03):
a few that I've seen that that are fairly recent,
you know, this this century, this era that right. Yeah,
definitely definitely had to take a step back when I
looked at a couple of those.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Do you feel that there are some themes that feel
familiar in today's age from those stories way back when?
But not way back when? You know, things that we
talk about on the podcast regularly, like you know, different
forms of abuse, different types of trauma, you know, different

(44:42):
types of psychological control. I don't know if those themes
that we talk about now that were definitely around back then,
that maybe didn't have a name, weren't identified. Do you
find any familiarity in that type of darkness between then
and now?

Speaker 2 (45:00):
I do so in some of the rhymes, some of
the rhymes that's kind of glossed over you you can
kind of see it, but it's not really really prevalent
in that particular rhyme. There are a few rhymes where
that is the rhyme. You know, child labor, coercion, those

(45:21):
types of things. There's you know, little miss Muffett is psychological.
Her step dad was into all things creepy Crawley. He
was kind of into experimenting, and that's what he called
all of his bugs were experiments, and she had to
grow up with his experiments running loose in the house.

(45:42):
You know, She'd be sitting eating and something would crawl
across her hand, and it was very psychological for her.
Not necessarily like widespread brainwashing psychological, but there's definitely undertones
of psychological in the rhyme. Seesaw Marjorie Daw is all

(46:03):
about child labor and exploitation of children. So I definitely
found that in my research that they do talk about
it quite often in rhymes.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
I know that we talked about this before we hit record,
but you mentioned that you might read us a little
segment of your Seesaw Marjorie Dow chapter. I don't know
if you feel comfortable enough to do that now, but
I'm gonna throw it out there anyway.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Okay, I will. I'm gonna preface this by saying, reading
out loud for a dyslexic person is horrible. So if
I fumble over my words, I apologize in advance. But
that's just what happens when a dyslexic person reads aloud.

(46:52):
So let me get here.

Speaker 4 (46:54):
Let's see Okay.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
So it's chapter thirty three, see Saw Marjorie Daw the
grim reality of child labor and exploitation, and starts with
the rhyme see Saw Marjorie Daw. Johnny shall have a
new master. He shall earn but a penny a day
because he can't work any faster. The seemingly playful nursery
rhyme Seesaw Marjorie Daw conceals a darker narrative beneath its

(47:29):
rhythmic lines. Far from being a simple children's chant, the
rhyme offers a veiled commentary of the harsh realities of
child labor during the Industrial Revolution, an era in which
children were routinely exploited for cheap labor under brutal conditions.
This grim reality is reflected in the rhyme's key themes,

(47:51):
the relentless toil of working children, the paltry wages they earned,
and the societal indifference that allowed such exploitation to flourish.
Marjorie Dac herself may symbolize misfortune and societal judgment on
those trapped in poverty and exploitation. The figure Johnny the
child laborer represents the countless children who endured backbreaking labor

(48:15):
in factories, workhouses, and minds for little to know compensation.
In this chapter, we explore the historical context of child
labor and systemic exploitation of vulnerable children, and the lasting
impact of this grim chapter in history through the lens
of seesaw Marjorie Daway.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
That looks like that was like, you know, if you
would have said to me, you know, Brittity has dislexy,
I would have been like, well, I didn't know, wouldn't
have known, wouldn't have known. I mean, oh, thank you,
I don't know. Fantastic, so good, so good. I mean,
maybe is it Do you think maybe it's a familiarity thing.

(48:58):
It's your writing, it's your word, so you're you're familiar
with the flow, you know with the content. Do you
think that helps at all when it comes to reading
things off a page.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
I think it helps a little bit. I also may
have cheated and reread this chapter to make sure that
I was a little bit more familiar with it, because
I knew that this request might be coming and I
didn't want to fumble over my words.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
So a little bit like a little fascinating book. It
sounds like really really interesting, and it is educational in
a and it kind of still it still is you know,
it's obviously true crime related or I don't even want

(50:03):
to say adjacent, because it is obviously looking at a
lot of it being true crime, but it's also not
like it's a it's different from you know, this documentary
on this serial killer and we're going to break down
his psychological profile or his psychopathic profile or his psychiatric

(50:26):
profile or whichever expert they have to come in and
talk about that. You know, sometimes I'll find myself watching
those shows, definitely less so in the last few years
than I used to, But sometimes I think it's refreshing
to you know, still have an interest in learning about
true crime, but just in a different way. And this

(50:47):
is definitely that, Like, this is I new and different,
and yeah, it sounds like a lot of love has
gone into this. But but but you've enjoyed it as well.
You've been with the learning and you know, learning all
these skills, and yeah, just putting a hobby into an

(51:08):
actual finished products that must be great. It does.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
It feels amazing because yeah, I never thought it would
I never thought I would do something like this, but
I definitely the research was so much fun. I definitely
had a blast doing it. And the history that I
found was extremely fascinating, you know, being over here in
the States, we know enough about our friends in the UK,

(51:35):
but not enough. And then when I was doing my research,
I was like, wait, I didn't know that happened, you know.
Oh wait, I didn't know he was a serial killer.
I didn't know this. So all of the little tidbits
that I was finding were they were a lot of fun.
They maybe me want to look into it more and
do more research about different things. So it was fun

(51:57):
and it was definitely a labor of love because I
poured my heart into this thing.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
Would you say the I mean, we may have already
touched on some of these, but what would you say
were the biggest challenges for you throughout this process and
what did you do to overcome those challenges.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
So one of the biggest things, I mean, other than
the dyslexia and trying to navigate around that and the
tools that I had, it was definitely the funds, just
because I knew if I was going to do this,
I needed to do it. So I needed to find
a publisher, I needed to find someone to edit it,
and that all adds up. So I needed to make

(52:40):
sure that I had those funds readily available, so that
was one of the challenges. The other challenge was I
had mentioned earlier that I had gotten laid off from
my career of over ten years, and that's when I
started writing this. Well, two months later, after I decided
we were going to do this and I started writing
and researching, I got a new job. So then I

(53:04):
had to decide, while this is amazing, I got a
new job, which is what I needed. Do I stop
and just shelf it, which meant I would probably never
come back to it, or do I try and figure
out how to continue writing while learning a new career
because it was a completely different job, and I decided

(53:27):
to figure it out. You know, I've always been picked
myself up by my bootstraps. Things happened for a reason,
and just do it. So I did. It turned into
late nights, long weekends. I still made sure that I
got time with my fur baby, took him out, did
all the things random ragged, and there were times, you know,

(53:49):
I definitely made sure that my family time didn't suffer.
So when my parents or my sisters would call and
be like, Hey, we're doing dinner, do you want to
come over? There are a few times I said, no, sorry,
I'm really tied tonight. That was my go to line,
I'm really tired lying not lying. But there were a
lot of times where I was like, yeah, sure, i'll
come over, and so I'd shelf it for the night,

(54:11):
I wouldn't write, or I wouldn't do the research, and
then I just made it a longer day the next day.
But yeah, I was definitely trying to juggle my new
job that I was learning with all of the things
that had to do with the research and the writing
and all of that for this book. So that was
definitely a huge, a huge obstacle. But you know, it

(54:36):
all worked out.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Whispers in the Cradle. I've just been looking at it
on Amazon. The book comes really interesting. How did you
come up with that design?

Speaker 2 (54:47):
So I wanted something so I love true crime, spooky things,
horror movies. I'm a huge horror movie buff all the things.
And when I was doing this, all I could picture
in my head was like that spooky, creepy interrogation room
where it would have the light bulb over the table,

(55:08):
the old wooden table, and I wanted that dark esthetic,
but I wanted to make sure.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
That it was.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
That you could tell that it had to do with
something specific, so you know, the muffin and the crown
and the axe, like I wanted some of those from
the nursery rhymes to be put on the cover. And
then as I was thinking about it, I was like, Oh,
how cool would it be to have an old book
like the center of the table with the spotlight on top.
Why not put our book name on the book on

(55:40):
the cover. And I in my head it just looked
really cool. Well, I will say, while AI is very
frowned upon in the book world, I had this idea
in my head and I knew that I could get
an idea picture wise from AI. So I put my

(56:00):
idea into AI. I had them create it. It was
not what I was looking for, but it was a
place to start. So when I went to the editor
or the publisher, I sent them that picture as well
as what I was looking for. I said, I don't
like this. AI created it. I don't like it. It's
not what I'm looking for, but this is kind of

(56:20):
the aesthetic I'm going for. And then here's what I'm
really looking for, and I this cover. It was in
my head. I don't know how they reached into my
brain and pulled this idea out. But they sent me
this cover and I was like, did you like crawl
into my brain while I was sleeping? How how did

(56:41):
you get this? Because this was the picture I had
in my head and I just couldn't articulate it.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
So it's great.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Yeah, so that I like.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
The book looks like it has texture on it, you know,
like those old fashioned books that almost feel like they
have braille over the front cover and you can see that,
and I like that. Obviously, you've got a broken crown here,
You've got a muffin with a bite taken out of it,
and then there is there is like an axe in

(57:09):
the top corner. So is that for the Lizzie Borden
ribe or are like hatchets or axes just like a
recurring theme? You know.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
I just liked the bloody axe. Lizzie Borden is not
in this one. She might be in the next one,
so but yeah, I wanted something dark and I thought,
you know, bloody axe is pretty dark, so I went
with the axe. But other than that, the crown and
the muffin were definitely those are in there. I can't remember.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Yeah, we could see the crowns behind you.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
Yeah, oh yeah, the crown behind you.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
It almost looks like you're wearing it. Where do you sit?

Speaker 2 (57:49):
That's get my little tr own.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
So the second book, what do we know so far?
How much progress have we made? Is there a title?

Speaker 4 (58:00):
Well?

Speaker 1 (58:00):
What can you tell us?

Speaker 2 (58:01):
So? No title yet. But I decided I was going
to do a second one similar to this one, and
I was going to do American nursery rhymes. And I
kind of threw that idea around because I wasn't sure
if I wanted to do American because we're a very
young country and we kind of stole all of your
rhymes and made them our own. So were we really

(58:22):
going to have enough for me to write a book?
And so I looked at it for a little while.
I pulled up some some rhymes that I knew Lizzie Borden,
And then I started looking at the handclap games that
you were talking about earlier, because we do those a
lot here. I did them as a kid with my

(58:43):
younger sister, and I found that a lot of those
have really dark stories behind them. So I said, all right,
looks like we're doing American and you know, the US
was definitely on my list because I have several other
ideas that I thought about doing different countries. But I
was like, you know, you live in the US, maybe

(59:07):
you should do rhymes from the US before you move
on to another country. You know, this is this is
where you're from. Maybe maybe do a little research into
your dark history before you start poking other people's histories,
so you know. I actually talked to my family about it,
and uh, I was like, this is kind of my idea.

(59:28):
I kind of want to do this country, but I'm
not sure. I put it online for the private Facebook
group that I have. I asked people, I gave them
a poll, and none of them helped me. They all
chose different countries, and I was like.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
That's so tight that I know how I'll work this out.
I'll ask for how But they like, you guys, what
any help at all?

Speaker 2 (59:50):
That is exactly what I told them too. I said,
you guys did not help me at all. And then
I was talking to my dad and we were and
my mom and we were talking about it, and he's like,
I really think the American one is a good idea.
Just because you're from here, you already found a bunch
of them, and I think that would be a good idea.
And I was like, Okay, I'll look because if we

(01:00:13):
don't have enough, then I'm not going to But we
have enough. The problem is they're really really dark, darker
than these ones, and they're more recent. So as I
was saying earlier, where I didn't really have to take
a break during my research when it got dark, these
ones are. They're more recent so you can put them

(01:00:36):
in context, and so they're very dark. And there's actually
one that I was looking into that I don't know
if I could include because of how dark it goes.
So I don't know if i'd do a better warnings page,
like a stronger warnings page, but or if I would

(01:00:58):
leave that one out and just share it with my
nearest and dearest because it's it's definitely a really good one.
It's got really good story behind it.

Speaker 5 (01:01:08):
It's just very descriptive and it yeah, yeah, we're.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
You also don't want to. I mean, it depends how
recent you're talking. But I don't know if you would
want to directly upset, you know, like family members of
people who have had these rhymes written about, you know,
a loved one. I don't know if there would be
any that are that recent, but I don't know. You

(01:01:39):
always kind of run that risk, don't you, when you're
looking at true crime stories from for recent times.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Yeah, you definitely don't want to upset anybody. You also
don't want because the one that I'm talking about has
to do is stranger Danger, which is kind of how
the rhyme came to be. And then it talks about
children and horrible things that were done to children, but
it was fairly recent. It was, like I want to say,
I if I remember correctly, like nineteen thirty to me,

(01:02:07):
not very long ago, and that as descriptive as it gets.
It's one of those where I'm like, it's a great story.
I mean, maybe if I tone it down a little
bit instead of going into all the detail, then maybe
it would be worth it. But definitely don't want to
upset anybody. I don't want it to be so dark
that people are like, Nope, I don't want to read it,
you know, I want people to enjoy it. I don't

(01:02:28):
want it to be so harsh and scary that people
are like no.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
So just yeah, let me know, let me know what
you decide with that one. I mean, it's hard to
make that choice, but I'm sure that you'll work out
how you fail at some point on which way you
kind of are leaning. But sometimes I find myself sitting
with things like that for a long time and thinking

(01:02:56):
do I put this episode out? Do I not put
this episode out? Do I talk about this on the podcast?
Do I not? All of those types of things, and
eventually you kind of make a decision. Sometimes that can
take years, though. Yeah, it's not a very patient person,
so we'll find that frustrating.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Yeah, my family's dever, like, so when's the next one
coming out?

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
I'm like, hey, really to try myself. So, just to
end today's chat, which I've really enjoyed, this has been
a nice change of pace from some of the you know,
really tough conversations that we often have on this podcast.

(01:03:41):
So I might even put this out as like a
midweek special just to kind of break up some of
some of the other content a little bit. And I'm
really looking forward to having to read sharing my thoughts
with the listeners, and hopefully some of the listeners will
have a read and share their thoughts with me too.
So before we end our conversation and direct Everybody to

(01:04:06):
Whispers in the Cradle available on Amazon, or I'll put
a link in the episode description on places you can
purchase the book. What advice do you have for any
listeners who are thinking about either starting their writing journey
or trying to get their work published.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
I would say, definitely do your research, you know, don't
just don't just do it, you know, if you're looking
for a publisher, researcher, publisher, I would say there are
definitely programs out there that can help you. Definitely find
someone who can help you edit if you are just

(01:04:45):
starting and don't know where to start or how to start.
I do recommend Atticus just for writing purposes because it
formats it for you. But you can always use word
you can always use that little transcribe but and so
you can just talk into the microphone and it will
write for you. But just find something that you enjoy

(01:05:08):
and start writing. It might be you start, you read
through it and you're like, oh, I didn't like that.
Change it. It's not just a one and done type
of a thing where you just write and you're happy
with it. I can't tell you how many times I
rewrote certain sections and passages and research because I didn't

(01:05:31):
like the way it sounded, but it sounded great in
my head, and it sounded great the first time I
wrote it down. So I would say, if you're afraid
to do it or just trying to start, just start writing,
even if it's in a little journal. You don't have
a OCD like I do, you know, just start writing

(01:05:53):
a few minutes a day, write down your idea, and
then go from there. Once you finish writing a chapter
and you reread your chapter, sorry, it gets a little
easier because you feel a little bit more confident because
you're like, oh, that actually sounded pretty good, and now
I know what I want to say next. Oh, and

(01:06:14):
I want to know what I want to say next.
So yeah, if you're just starting out, just just do it.
Just dive right in. Word is definitely your best friend,
especially the transcribe because that's amazing. And then for people
who have done everything and they just want to get published,

(01:06:36):
you can actually do it yourself. You can go on
to Amazon and you can as long as it's formatted correctly,
you can go on and you can upload your stuff there.
But you do need to know that you're doing the legwork.
You know you're going on to social media. You're reaching
out to libraries and podcasts and book clubs and all
the things just to get out there. You're reaching out

(01:06:58):
to bookstores to see if you can go in for signings.
So you're doing the legwork. And then if you are
going to get a publisher, do your research. Make sure
that the publisher is going to do one what they promise,
and two all of the things to help you. So, yeah,
that's my advice.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
Fantastic, great advice. A little bit out of time, I
find sometimes, So if I've got a big project, like
I'm working on another podcast at the moment, like a
limited series podcast, and it's very overwhelming, I should do
a little bit every day, and it's nice to see
kind of the bigger project come together because when you
think about like a book, oh my gosh, that's intimidating,

(01:07:39):
that's overwhelming, Like, but a little bit every day it
soon starts to kind of culminate into something bigger. So
I love that advice, and I love what you've said
about doing the research around getting published as well. I've
just really enjoyed this conversation and I'm looking forward to
grabbing my copy of Whiskers in the cradle and thank

(01:08:01):
you so much for joining us today. Brittany, what an
amazing journey.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
Thank you so much for having me, and I would
love to hear what people think. So if when you
do get your copy, once you're done, if you let
me know, I would love to know what you thought
of it. I hope you love it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Oh well, we can reach out and let you know
and maybe we'll get to have a follow up episode
when you publish book number two.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
That would be amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
Thank you so much, Brittany. Enjoy the rest of your
day and take care. Thank you you too.