Yoga Cults and Families Torn Apart

In this episode, Michael shares his journey from a seeker of spirituality to becoming involved in a cult. He discusses his life before the cult, the allure of enlightenment, and the psychological manipulation involved in cult dynamics. Michael emphasises the importance of trusting oneself and recognising personal wins and losses, while also reflecting on the challenges of leaving a high-control group and the impact on individuality and family dynamics. He concludes with a powerful message about the significance of self-trust and the journey of personal growth after such experiences.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to the Cult Vault podcast, your dedicated
podcast for uncovering the darkest corners of cults and coercive control.
I'm your host, Casey, and I want to start by
thanking each and every one of you for tuning in.
Your support fuels our deep dives into these critical issues.
Before we get started, a word of caution. Today's episode

(00:22):
may contain discussions on abuse, including graphic descriptions of abuse,
and covers a variety of human rights violations that may
be triggering for some listeners. Please consider this as a
trigger warning and proceed with caution. I'm thrilled to announce
that I'll be appearing at Crime Con UK in London
on the seventh and eighth of June twenty twenty five

(00:42):
and again in Manchester on the twenty seventh of September
twenty twenty five. Join me and a host of world
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Speaker 2 (00:54):
This is the.

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Speaker 2 (01:13):
I hope to see some of you there. And for
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Speaker 1 (01:15):
Want even more from the Colt Fault Podcast, you can
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the continuation of this work. Thank you again for your
support and your listenership. Now let's unlock the vault. Hello, Hello,

(01:38):
Hello listeners, and welcome back to another episode of the
Cult Fart Podcast. Today I am sitting down with sybody
to talk about a cultit group that this individual was
introduced to you later in life, so not a case
of somebody being born and raised.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
So hello and welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
Michael, Hey, thanks for having me see appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
I usually start these episodes by asking each guest to
introduce themselves to the listeners.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
Of course, so I'm Michael in my thirties, grew up
in New York kind of born and raised in the
suburbs of New York City, lived there for a long
time in my twenties, moved out to Los Angeles, lived
there for a little while. I kind of fell in
love with that whole West Coast vibe. But now I'm

(02:29):
back in New York, you know, raising a family, two
little girls, and you know, I reside in New York.
I work in kind of the music technology industry, so
that's like my kind of day job. And you know, always,
uh kind of was a you know seeker, you know,
still very actively involved in, you know, certain aspects like

(02:51):
meditation and mindfulness and reading and things like that. So
I guess that's kind of me in a nutshell.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Would you say that.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Compared to one another, Maybe, you don't know, but compared
to one another New York ll LA, where do you
think you're more likely to run into cultic groups?

Speaker 3 (03:12):
Oh, I'd say definitely LA. I don't think, Yeah, I
don't think New York City ors are going to put
up with any type of control or yeah, they're they're
not even going to be able to stop to take
the literature or something. They're going to just get out
of my way. So I think you'd probably see a
little bit more of that in Los Angeles and California,

(03:32):
which I think actually like historically, I think that's kind
of like a city in a state known for you know,
cult cult kind of activity and groups. But yeah, it
happened in New York because you'd be like, you'd be
surprised how many how many groups there are in upstate
New York? Right, happening in New York. But New York City,
no way, it's probably a lot more difficult.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, it's funny to think about, you know, notorious cults
from the parst, Like I think it was the Sullivanians who.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
Were upstate New York.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
And then I have a friend, Spencer Schneider, who came
on the podcast a number of times, and he talked
about an esoteric cult in Manhattan that nobody knew about.
It was like sort of like an underground group and
it didn't even have a name. They were just you know,
they would just kind of like past each other in
the street and pretend that they didn't know each other.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
If they saw each other.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
So, even if there were cultic groups, perhaps they're more
behind the scenes.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, of course, of course. Well I think also I
think City Yoga is in upstate New York, which is
you know, kind of notorious for abuse, you know, so
they do they do happen.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
So you mentioned that you have always been a seeker,
that you were still practicing things like meditation and mindfulness
post cultic experience. What was your life like before you
got involved with the group. Was there any particular sort
of transitional period or vulnerability that you think led you
down this path or was it just sort of a

(05:08):
chance encounter?

Speaker 3 (05:12):
You know, life. I think a lot of times we
can really like look at it like backwards and see indicators,
you know, like we can start to see a picture
forming or a narrative when we when we look at
it backwards. You know, most of my life was spent,
you know, being creative. You know, from a very young age,

(05:33):
I was you know, always had a video camera or
a camera, was always writing, creating, doing different creative projects.
Then I got into music, you know, my teenage years,
you know, started to play music and create music and
create you know, bands and being a music artist. And
for a really long time that was kind of like
my main pursuit, which is kind of funny because now

(05:57):
I'm working in the music industry. Just with technology. And
from a young age, I was always really into technology,
you know, I was always into like hacking and coding
and tech and computers and software, and you know, I
was like in love like not many kids, you know
are like in love with ms das, which was the
old if you remember, it was the old way to
boot up different programs. And so it's kind of funny

(06:18):
now looking back, like where I'm at now working in
the music industry and being involved in technology, it's kind
of like perfect. But that was kind of my life
for a very long time, was you know, being you know,
I was always like you know, kind of like what
i'd call like street smart and you know, creative and
definitely what's funny about me as I was very and

(06:38):
still am very kind of anti authority, and I have
a little anarchist in me, you know, so it's kind
of like always kind of how I was just doing
my own thing and creating my own world. And and
you know, also like you know, I was considered myself
to be friendly. You know, I'm very outgoing, outspoken, you know,

(07:00):
I always like to work with other people and learn
about other people, and very you know, extroverted. So that
that was kind of my upbringing. And you know, so
throughout my teens and early twenties, that's kind of what
I did, you know, But I think somewhere in my
twenties I started to get anxious, you know, I started
to really start to suffer from you know, anxiety stress

(07:24):
at a young age, which is kind of weird. I
think a lot of these things, you know, sometimes we
learn them from our parents and how they are, you know,
we pick up their mode or their their way of
being sometimes. And so that was kind of like something
that at the early age, I was way too anxious,
you know, way too much anxiety for you know, and
you know, I didn't want to like take medication, and

(07:47):
you know, I didn't want to, you know, so I
started to you know, really think about my life and
what I was doing, and you know, I was in
rock bands, and you know that that can be a
very you know, on the go life, and it's you know,
it's kind of it can be stressful in itself. You're touring,
you're traveling, you're in a van with four or five
other guys all the time, and you're also trying to

(08:08):
like make a career out of being a musician, which
is like you know, being an actor musician as a
career is one of the hardest things you can do. Right,
A very small percentage of people make earn a living
doing that. So I just in my early twenties was
trying to figure out who I was, you know, and
you know, whether it's like you're going through a physical
ailment or you're going through like mental health issues. I

(08:28):
think we're all very vulnerable in our twenties, right. We're
trying to figure out who we are, and we're trying
to figure out what we want to be, and we
feel insecure, and you know, we want to help the
world or we want to do more with our lives.
I think a lot of people and that's actually a
great way to be. Like, it's completely natural and normal
and healthy to want to help and to want to

(08:50):
be contributing to the world in society. I think that's
a healthy thought and a healthy emotion. So that led
me to, you know, start to kind of evaluate my life.
You know. I always felt like there was more to
life than just what I was doing at the time. Again,
I think a lot of people in their twenties go
through that, and it kind of led me to a

(09:11):
place of unhappiness. You know, in my early twenties to
mid twenties, I was like kind of unhappy with the
way things were going, and I felt stuck in like
a cycle of a way of living. And you know,
one day I saw an old friend talking about meditation,
talking about you know, spirituality, and it kind of peauked

(09:34):
my interest. You know, it definitely piqued my interest. I
felt some kind of connection to it. And I had
no background in that at all. Like I was like
straight rocker dude, like playing guitar, drinking beer, like partying
on the weekends, you know, traveling in a van. Like
I had never read any spiritual literature. Which there's a

(09:55):
funny story within this story about when I was seventeen,
I went to this rehearsal space in New York, in Orangeburg,
New York, I met this guy Kevin right and through
meeting this guy Kevin, who was a sound engineer, that
connection comes back into my life about fifteen years later.
That I'll explain at some point, but we'll just put

(10:16):
that kind of on the back burner. But so, yeah,
I had no spiritual acumen, no interest in that at all.
But once I started to hear about meditation and the
kind of inner feelings I was having, you know, I
got curious. So I started to link up with this
friend from high school and you know, started to join
in on some meditations. He had a little thing going

(10:36):
on in New York as well, and yeah, you know,
meditation felt really good, you know, And to this day,
I still meditate, right, I still find a lot of
benefit from waking up early, meditating, journaling, doing some yoga,
light stretching in the morning, like setting intentional you know,
activities in the morning for your day. So that's kind

(10:57):
of how I got into that realm though, what I
call like the layer where you get exposed to kind
of some you know, spiritual practices, which can be like
a positive thing, right, the practices can be positive, you know.
So then I started reading, you know, I read. I
picked up a copy of Autobiography of a Yogi, which
is a very famous book. A lot of spiritual seekers

(11:21):
read that book, you know. I think Steve Jobs, you know,
was very influenced by that book when he went to India,
and just a lot of people, you know, and I
still once in a while will go to the Yogananda
Lake Shrine in Los Angeles. It's a beautiful space. So
I started reading that book. I started reading the books

(11:41):
of Ramdas you know who was a teacher. I started
to you know, listen to you know, some things like
Krishnadas music Jayatal started to get into that kind of
world and read more about Buddhism, Hinduism, you know, read
a little bit of The Boss Gita, and I started

(12:02):
to really you know, enjoy the way I started feeling
from these things. You know. It showed me this kind
of other world that I didn't really know existed, you know.
And then I was hanging out with this friend, and
then you know, one thing led to another, and then
after a few months, I met a woman who came

(12:24):
we'll call her at Simmi, and she, you know, started
to kind of come into this group, you know, and
she was kind of presented as this enlightened master, this
this guru, you know, and that's kind of the genesis
for how it all started. That's kind of the beginning.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
When you are introduced to somebody that is described as
an enlightened being at this point through the different things
that you've been reading and just kind of introducing yourself
to howd you come across these types of terms. I
knew at that point what you know, what significance that
had in things like Buddhism and Hinduism to come across
an enlightened being.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah, so, so they definitely discussed it a lot. You know. Well,
the bag of Agda doesn't talk about enlightened beings, right,
The bag of Agida is more a story right of
you know, a king and he's talking to his kind
of confidant, who you know is basically kind of like
God in a human form, right, So the Guida doesn't

(13:27):
necessarily go into that. A book like autobiography for a
Yogi would would probably talk about like enlightened beings. You
definitely develop a little bit of like magical thinking, you know,
and so like obviously, like we all know that miracles
exist in the world, you know, but it doesn't mean
that just because you do a certain set of things

(13:50):
or systems or say a certain set of words, that
you're going to create miracles. Right, that's the difference. So
I think, I think, yes, I think you start to
develop a bit of magical thinking, you know, through sometimes,
especially if you're new to it or you're naive. You know,
it's it's a new thing. You know. It's like talking
about princesses and knights when you're a kid and then

(14:12):
you go to a birthday party and there's a woman
there addressed as a princess and you're like, oh my god.
You know, it's like you're it's like very magical as
a child. Right, So it's a similar thing, you know.
It's it's you probably see it a lot in the
business world too, where you hear about this CEO who
runs a five hundred million dollar company and you're trying
to become a business person, and then you meet them

(14:33):
and it's a magic you know, it's like a there's
an experience, there's an aura around this person, you know.
So that's how it did. And then not to mention
undue influence, right, which is you know, you're giving undue
influence to a person that you've never met, you know,
which is a very interesting psychological phenomenon. Right. So the

(14:56):
other thing too with this group is this is all
your friends, These are all my friends are involved in it. Right.
There was about five people I knew that also came
and started coming to this group and these courses that
I had known since high school. So it's not like
I just met some group that you know, were strangers, right.
I'm being introduced to this woman by a group of friends, right,

(15:20):
so your guard is already down. You're this part of
you that might be a little bit more defensive in thought,
and you know, kind of protection is kind of already lowered.
So that's an interesting thing.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Also, my friend who I did the my master's course
with that that was basically what her research was centered around,
looking at the differences between cult recruitment if it's word
of mouth and through mutual connections and friends and recruitment
like you know, on a college campus or on the
street or at the supermarket. It just a chance encounter.

(15:53):
I say chance encounter because I don't really know if
people that are deployed for cult recruitment ever chance encounters.
That think there's probably always a level of calculation there,
But I don't know if that's just me being really cynical.
And I think what you said about the social proofing.
You know, if you're new to all of this and
you have a few friends that have been doing it

(16:14):
for a bit longer, and you kind of follow their
lead a little bit more, I suppose.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
So if they say, wow, Simmy's the real deal.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
She knows what she's talking about, I would be like, wow,
I guess she really must know what she's talking about,
because I trust my friends and I trust their opinions
and I trust their intelligence.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
So I don't know if.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
That's how it all worked out for you and sort
of what your first impressions of Simmy.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
Were one hundred percent. Because every leader of groups like
this high control groups, there's some type of mythology behind them, right,
that gets passed on through the different members through language, right,
And language is really you know, language is like the

(16:57):
virus that spreads amongst these groups, right, because it's you know,
I'm reading now the book Cultish, you know, and it's
all about that. And it's not just spiritual groups. It
could be you know, one of the ones that's in
there are like exercise and workout groups. There's multi level marketing.
There's you know, people that create these groups around products
and you know, the like a MacBook and so so.

(17:21):
But in order for these things to spread and these
ideas to spread and to kind of capture your mind
and imagination, language needs to happen, right. It needs to
spread through speaking and reading most most of the time. Right.
I think that's an interesting thing. So, yes, when when
you come into these groups, typically there is a mythology

(17:41):
behind the leader or behind the person that is kind
of leading these courses, and you know, as a young,
naive person in their twenties, you don't really question it.
You don't think that you're going to brush up against
a narcissist because you don't even know what a narcissist
is yet. You're so young. You haven't unless you've you know,
you've experienced that, or you're studying psychology or clusters or

(18:03):
you know, these types of personality disorders, you don't really
brush up against that. Many people like that, you know.
So most of us are trusting, most of us are open,
most of us don't think that the person sitting across
from us has an ulterior motive for us. Right, So
I think that's something that young people should really look

(18:24):
out for, right And I call it we talked, you know,
I call it the exposure layer. It's the dinner, it's
the yoga class, it's the music performance, it's the it's
the thing that doesn't seem like it's that big a
deal that kind of pulls you into the orbit of
these groups, right, And that's kind of your first exposure

(18:44):
to them. And then typically it's like, oh, do you
want to help out more, or would you like to
help us set up the next one, or would you
like to teach a course eventually, or would you like
to you know, hit the streets and try to raise
some money for the organization with me next weekend, or
you know. And that's like that slow kind of takeover

(19:06):
of your your personality in your mind that you know
I personally experienced, right, I experienced that.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
I suppose it's not just you know, we're going to
go do a yoga class or you know, here's a
free book for you to read. That typically, I imagine
comes with other smaller moments of indoctrination, whether that's through
social proofing again, or whether that's through you know, the
loaded language that you've mentioned. And it's really sorry, it's

(19:55):
always really tough to hear people talk about their positive characterist.
You know, you've talked about being friendly and outgoing and
open and wanting to contribute to society, and these are
all ideal characteristics for an abusive person to exploit. You know,
people that are exploitative will be looking for somebody that

(20:16):
has these positive character traits and characteristics and think I
can use them to sort of enhance my own nefarious goals.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
And that's always really.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
It's always really tricky to hear because I feel like
sometimes after a cultic experience, people talk about those positive
traits differently, almost like they were part of the reason
why they a person gets caught up in a cult
to begin with. And I know some people say that
they don't really trust themselves and their own instincts after

(20:49):
a cultic experience, and that's not the same with everybody,
but yeah, it's just I just wanted to make that
point for anybody listening that you know, hopefully those are
characteristics that you still have and can carry with you
after a cultic experience, because yeah, they're beautiful things to
have in life and to be able to say about

(21:10):
yourself as well.

Speaker 3 (21:12):
Firsthand, people in our group, you know, basically backburner their
own personality and it's sad, you know, It's like, you're
a beautiful person. You know, you're who you are, and
it's okay to be unique. You know, these groups, at
least the group I was in, they demonize individuality. They do, right,

(21:34):
it's almost frowned upon to be an individual. But what
makes you so special is you're an individual. That's part
of a whole. You know, the world needs musicians, the
world needs bankers, the world needs doctors, the world needs architects.
The world needs funny people, it needs serious people, it
needs quiet people, it needs loud people. Everyone is okay

(21:54):
the way that they just are right now. And that's
the main thing that I try to like emphasize about
these groups is they want to reprogram you right to
you know, essentially be the way a lot of times
that the leader wants you to be. And I've experienced
that firsthand. You know, you know, you want to please
the leader, you want to please the people in the group.

(22:16):
You want to conform and aligne in a certain way
that is degradating to your own spirit. You know. You know,
if you read Steve Hassan and you read about his
bite model, right you have behavior control, information control, thought control,

(22:36):
and emotional control. All those things is what makes you
who you are. Your emotions are what make you who
you are. Your thoughts, your dreams, your you know, beliefs,
your ability to make art and create paintings, and you know,
that's who you are. And that's the beauty of all
of this. And I've seen the crushing experience of taking

(22:57):
an artist and making him be a full time chef,
seeing you know, a photographer and videographer who's very creative
and insightful, and you know he's just deduced to a
laborer or you know, a souo chef now for twenty
four hours a day. And you know, I've seen people
you know, who are very talented, you know, not be

(23:18):
able to express that that given gift that God gave you,
you know, and it's it hurts. And so anyway, getting
back to Steve San, he also talks about the pseudo personality,
where you have almost like your personality and then a
parallel personality that the group creates, the cult creates, the
leader creates, and at times they kind of they kind
of come in and out right like you'll see the

(23:40):
original personality shine through in a joke and a laughter
in a moment. But then you can actually sometimes I've
seen like the other one almost glaze over the person right,
and it's very like if you're paying attention, it can
be very alarming or disturbing to see the two of
them and trying to interact like I shouldn't do this,
I shouldn't laugh at this, I shouldn't talk like this

(24:01):
I shouldn't watch like, you know, like like any of
that matters. Right at the end of the day. Even
in our group, we weren't allowed to wear black. You know,
I love I like wearing black. We're in black right now.
You know, it's it is what it is, like who cares,
you know? You know, so one of the biggest things
for me coming out of the group was trying to
figure out my identity again and realizing, like what I

(24:22):
like as just Michael, not what I like because it
pleases the curt leader or the group and you know,
aligns with what they want to do. But I've seen
the bill enacted one hundred and ten, right, and it's
it's very creepy.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
When you are introduced to Simmy and you have some
of these kind of exposure experiences, how would you say
you continued down sort of The funnel is usually the
term I use. You know, you get in to a
group through you know, many different moments of exposure, many

(25:01):
different avenues to kind of coming across a group. The
more you go through this funnel, the more and more
you become isolated and dependent on the leader and and
you know, cutting off tides with the outside world. And
of course the funnel is not the same for everybody.
But how would you describe your.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
Experience of going further into the group?

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, so meta in New York. Then you know, maybe
the fall and winter here, you know, Skype classes. She
would come. She would fly in and become a big production,
you know, buying sandwiches and you know, inviting people and
you know, again pretending like, you know, this is the Guru,
and you know, trying to like integrate, you know, certain

(25:45):
Indian practices into what we were doing, just to kind
of you know, create this grandiose like environment for her,
which is fine, right whatever. I'm sure if the President
visited my house, I would clean, you know, I'm not
just gonna you know, leave the leave the towels on
the floor, but get some sandwiches. Yeah. Yeah. So after

(26:08):
a few months, my at the time partner, who was
a female uh in the group kind of involved with
the group as well, we moved out to Los Angeles,
where the main headquarters was about an hour north of
Los Angeles, and we were living in La working in
LA but every weekend now we were traveling up to

(26:28):
the headquarters at Temple Right and then at that at
that space. We were cleaning, we were sweeping, we were mopping,
we were sleeping there on the floor, you know, mattresses
on the floor or mats on the floor type thing.
You know. We were taking these courses in classes, cooking

(26:48):
and cleaning, and that's how the weekend would go. And
then Sunday night we'd go back to LA and then
literally rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. You know. One
of the things that I always say though, that really
helped me not get fully indoctrinated like some of the
other members, right, not fully give up my life, career, job,

(27:09):
money and all that was my natural seeking. Okay, So
I still would read other spiritual books, you know. I
read books on Buddhism. I listened to Adiya Ashanti, who's
a Buddhist teacher. I would read Ramdas. I got really
into and felt a deep connection to nim Coroli Baba,

(27:32):
who is you know, the teacher of Ramdas. And I
got really into Krishnidas. And then I would go to
the Adape Spiritual Center in Los Angeles where Michael Beckwith
would would give you know, talks, and they had things
going on there, which is a very beautiful community right
open to transgender, open to all different religions, all different

(27:57):
you know, open to atheism, like just everything, right, just
come on in, just let's just hang right, Like they're
very very beautiful community. But again, you can come and
go as you want. Right, that's the difference between you know,
communities that are healthy and unhealthy. So same thing. You know,
I do a lot with Krishnidas. I help set up

(28:17):
for their curtons and their musical performances, you know, And
but the difference being I can come and go. It's
it's an act of me wanting to be there versus
me being bonded by choice to be there. Right. The
bonded choice is a big thing in these groups, which
I've experienced firsthand as well. You know that you think
these people can leave, You think there's a choice, but
there isn't. Right, It's like a it's like me telling you, yeah,

(28:41):
you can leave it, but you're gonna die. If the
person believes that that's not a choice anymore, right, it's
taken them over. So I'll just say, like during this
initial time period, one of the things that kept me
from really you know, getting fully indoctrinated was my earnest seeking,
my still reading other books, my still looking at other
teachers and following other things and really exploring and wanting

(29:04):
to learn more. Right that wind up wound up being
being part of my saving grace. So you.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Encouraged?

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Were you encouraged not to continue those kind of personal
practices of reading things and exploring different, different Buddhist options.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
One, Yeah, I mean the group itself polices you kind
of you know a lot of like, well, why are
you reading that? If we have this you know, physical
teacher that's enlightened here, or you know, if it's not
like sri Ara Bindo or you know, this thing that's
been approved by the group, like why are you you know,
it's kind of like, you know, there's kind of some

(29:42):
of like a questioning of why why would you need
to like follow that teacher? And you know, and then
she herself would would you know, would kind of denounce
like Ekertoli and Deepak Chopras not real masters and teachers.
And it's like who cares? Like if it helps someone,
you know, if it helps somebody out, if it if

(30:03):
it puts somebody in a place that helps them, if
they feel a connection, who cares If it's not, If
it's not an enlightened master that you have qualified, you know,
because these people they forget like, Okay, if there is
an omnipresent God, then why are you telling me that

(30:23):
this thing that I'm reading from this, you know, Ecrotolly
or Deepak Chopra doesn't count as that omnipresence, that it's
not coming through them. Why it only comes through you?
It can only come through people, you think. So it's
just very loaded and that always kind of like rubbed
me the wrong way. But that's one hundred percent right.
Remember we said the bite model information control. You can

(30:44):
read this, but you shouldn't read this, you know.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
I've spoken to people as well who have got that
kind of like little rebellious streak that you're describing where
somebody has said, you know, in leadership, or you can
never read something by this person, and then they've gone, well,
now I have to like why why can't I like
I'm more interested? If you wouldn't have mentioned their name,

(31:07):
I would not have gone out of my way and
put myself in potential like trouble to find out why
you don't want me to know about this person?

Speaker 3 (31:18):
And I told you in the beginning, like I'm I'm
anti authority, you know, ish, and I'm very anarchist. And
you know, one thing I learned for this whole experience
is I'm very uncontrollable, like you know. And that's not
a bad thing, you know, It's it's it's who I am,
you know, and it's what makes me me me, you know.

(31:39):
And and i'd actually, you know, advise other people to
be a little less you know, a little less sheepish,
you know, I think for yourself like that.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
I like to hear you talk about those kind of
characteristics in a in a kind of empowering way, you know,
because again, some people lose that after a quarter of experience,
and you can understand why. And I, you know, I
can see why somebody who maybe has given up their career,
given up their home, left their families, you know, kind

(32:13):
of slowly been encouraged. I wouldn't say encouraged, I would
say coerced. But you know, whichever language people would choose
to use, people that have really given over their whole
lives through pressure, through coercion, through indoctrination. And you know,
I can see why perhaps somebody might think to themselves,

(32:36):
while I can't read that book, and I can't go
near that person's teachings, and I must stay away from
all of those things because I don't want to put
myself in jeopardy because at that point, what else does
a person have other than their community.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
Well, I'll tell you something that someone you know told me,
and it was it was Christian to us, who you
know is you know, he's a single. You know, I
get to talk to him once in a while, which
is a real like cool thing for me, you know,
because I admire him. And he told me that. You know,
spirituality is about learning to trust your own heart. It's

(33:14):
not about someone telling you what to do. It's not
about someone telling you how to live or how to
behave or their version. You know, it's about basically learning
to start trusting yourself because this is something that like
none of us have been taught, none of us have
been you know, supported to go out into the world
and trust our own heart and trust our own journey.

(33:37):
You know. So I implore people to, you know, do
more of that. Like there's nothing wrong with spirituality. There's
nothing wrong with meditation, there's nothing wrong with yoga and
poses and things that are helpful, and you know, and
there's nothing wrong with reading the Geta or the Dow
or the Bible or whatever. But it's like, you know,

(33:58):
with these groups, it's like, what can you leave? You know,
what happens if you want to leave? What happens? If
you want to, you know, go do your own thing?
What happens if you want to act as an independent human?
How do they treat you? How do they respond to that?
You know? How do they how do they react? Right?
And you know, is it based on fear? Are your
choices based on fear? You know? I was living for

(34:20):
many years with a lot of fear in my heart, right,
a lot of fear of what would happen, you know
if life fell apart, And for me, life did fall apart.
You know, I lost, I lost, you know, part of
part of me losing, I think, you know, my marriage
was because of this this group. You know, and you know,

(34:40):
the things that are the scariest things, like you know,
once they happen, right, once you can't stop them and
you just need to embrace them. You gain a strength,
you know, you learn to trust your own heart more.
And once you start to do that, nobody can take
that away from you. Eventually you know, you know, this

(35:00):
group tried to tell me who I was, who I wasn't,
tried to tell me what to think, tried tell me
what to believe. But at the end of the day,
none of it matters, because there's an inner voice. And
I even think for people inside these groups still that
voice is in there. They just they just suppress it
and push it down. But for me, that voice just

(35:21):
became louder and louder and louder that something is not right,
this is not right, this is not you know. And
it wasn't until I left also, you know, kind of
the group. I was threatened by the group leader. You know,
she threatened to take me away and separate me from
my you know, ex wife and my children. It wasn't
until that happened that I really realized, like, this is

(35:44):
not what I thought it was. And you know, little
cracks formed along the way, Casey, and that was the
one where like the glass just smashed, you know, and
I realized, like, that's not how you treat people. You know,
this is not love, this is not you know, the
right thing. And then once I kind of got into
that space, I started to talk to ex members, which

(36:04):
of course is demonized. Right, you don't talk to X
members because they're evil, they're corrupt there. They don't understand.
It's the same story too in every group, right, It's
it's very, very differ and through learning, you know, from
X members, I learned about so much more. I'm not
going to go into all of it, but I just
learned about so much more, like terrible disturbing stuff that

(36:25):
was happening that like we were all kept in the
dark from again in control. You know, cults they work
like like a bullseye, right, and you have the center
as the leader, and then there's a smaller group and
it's bigger, you know, and it kind of goes bulls
eyeing out. You know, you have your very core members
that are that have the most access to all the
real information, and then as it kind of goes out

(36:48):
to other members, they they know less and less. And
there's a lot of information control, you know, in these groups,
and that's why they try to control speaking to X
members because that's they don't want you being, you know,
hearing some of the information that's.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
Happened, especially when you start to go, oh my gosh,

(37:23):
that sounds like my story And I didn't think anybody
else had experienced this.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
Or fault this way.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
But there's a whole load of people out there that
are echoing.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Like my life story.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
And I've heard people say so many times how strange
it is to have that experience of learning that there
are so many other people that you know have gone
through the same processes of being fearful but recognizing something
was wrong until one day that kind of outweighs the fear.
And then, as you've described, the kind of the glass shutters.

(37:56):
And I'm just wondering sort of how you became more
involved over time and what did your responsibilities change and grow?
And you mentioned your family as well, So did you
did you meet in the group or did you introduce
your partner to the group.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
So my partner, my ex ex partner, my myx wife,
we met before the group, but when we were very young,
so we hadn't seen each other for years and years
and years. But if you remember, I said that I
got involved in this through a high school friend. His
sister was my ex and so we kind of ret

(38:39):
we kind of re met when this started in the group, right,
and then we're living together within the group, had a
relationship within the group and then we're married within the
group by the group leader, right, And at some point
in the relationship, I believe when things were kind of
starting to fall apart, we were kept together I believe

(39:00):
by the group as well. And it's sort of felt
a little bit of a combination between in the beginning
like kind of like oh, they say, like a love marriage,
but towards the end it felt more like kind of
like an arranged marriage. And the weird thing too, being
in a group like this is you have this other
leader that you confide in that you're supposed to be

(39:23):
even closer with than your spouse. And that's a weird
that's a weird kind of environment that not a lot
of people are used to, Like when you know, when
I'm with a partner and with a wife and with
a girlfriend, like that's supposed to be like your other half.
You're you're close to, You're you're you know, you're you're
kind of like vulnerable with them, you're open with them.
You have this relationship, but think about adding a third

(39:43):
person into that. So this person would use stuff I
say behind my wife's back and use stuff my wife
said behind my back, And it's like, how do you
form intimacy, how do you form trust, how do you
form a true layer there of what I would call
like you know, spousal needs, right, it kind of never

(40:05):
really formed, you know, and so over the years, you know,
I spent about eight years in this group. You know,
it started off kind of fringe, and then it became
you know, then she kind of you know, the leader
wanted me to come back to New York work for
one of the cult companies. I did. My my ex
wife worked for one of the cult companies, and you know,
that's kind of how things went for a while. And

(40:25):
then you know, they started these restaurants, and that's when
things got really insane, and people were, you know, giving
up all their time. They were they were they were
working twenty four seven. They get no breaks, they can't
see family, they're isolated from family. And one of the
things that that I was lucky I never got that
far in where I was isolated from family that that deeply,

(40:47):
you know, I kind of could sense it. And they
do say, like one of the reasons, one of the
one of the things with exiting these groups, people who
kept in touch with the outside world a little bit more,
they find a little easier to exit and to reintegrate,
whereas like people that give up everything and join and
isolate and it's a little harder to reach them. So

(41:08):
I spent a few years there in the group, and
then in twenty twenty one, my daughter was born, and
you know, and then the leader of the group at
that point, essentially my wife had preclampsia and it was
a dangerous condition and they wanted to induce and the

(41:31):
leader of the group was telling us not to, which
could put both my first child and my wife in danger.
And her brother at the time was trying to support
this leader also with when talking with us, and you know,
it was crazy. I mean, they said it was because
of some ritual or something, but the bottom line is

(41:52):
that my child had to come out, right, that's the
safest way to prevent you know, a health issue there.
And they were like, no, the doctors are evil, the
doctors are dark, they're they're you know, they're channeling dark forces.
And you know, it's basically a narcissistic way to control
the whole situation, right which it should be this beautiful moment,

(42:13):
it should be this celebratory thing, and it just became
this really stressful because not only am I having my
first kid, which is stressful on its own, right then
there's a medical condition which is a second layer of stress.
And then now I have this cult leader telling me like,
don't listen to doctors, you know. And it's like, so
I went down to the garden the night before my

(42:35):
daughter was born, and I just like said like a
real sincere prayer, you know, I said, look, I don't
care about any of this stuff. I don't care about
I was like, God, just please help me get this
this baby out, you know, like safely. And my daughter
was born the next morning, you know, and that's when
I first kind of realized like something is not right here.

(42:55):
And then about four months later, you know, my daughter
is about five months old, and you know, I was
out in Los Angeles for for work, and I guess
the at that point, we had moved upstate, you know,
to where the cult was kind of based, you know,
in upstate New York. We're living with them, and I'm
giving you know, service at the restaurant in the evenings,

(43:16):
working during the day, and you know, I get, you know,
this text message after coming back from California. I guess
the leader didn't like that I went out to California.
She didn't. You know, again, I'm uncontrollable human being, right,
so it's like, you know, eventually you're going to clash
with a cult leader, like when you're you're uncontrollable, like

(43:36):
someone's got to go. And you know, so she tried
to threaten me with fifteen people, you know, on a
text message. She sent a text message with everybody in
the group on it, and basically, you know, said, you
know you're you're serving the dark army, the dark forces.
You're full of ego. You know I won't be there
to help you anymore if you continue this behavior. You know,

(44:01):
your life's gonna become a bankruptcy and I'm going to
separate you from your daughter and your wife. And that
was kind of like the final like blow for me,
you know, and then I spent I spent the next
two weeks in like a really bad state of depression,

(44:22):
you know, and in really dark depression because this is
your whole life for eight years, you know, and then
you get threatened like that. But you know, I think
she underestimated how powerful being a father is, you know,
and how powerful the love between a child and their
parent is because she doesn't have children, so she couldn't

(44:42):
understand it, you know, and it really just like you know,
kind of like made me realize I don't want to
be involved in this anymore, you know. And then also
like nobody said anything to me. Really, nobody said how
you doing? That was you know, messed up thing to say,
you know, sorry that I had to deal with there.
It was just like radio silence because the group is

(45:04):
just we know, silent and obedient, right, she's the regard,
you know.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
So this is all happening in twenty twenty one with
a newborn baby after an extremely stressful kind of labor period,
and I just wonder, first.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Of all, if there is a sort of.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
Behavior towards young families, children babies in the group, and
you know, whether you know it's it's an exciting time
for the group, whether it's a time where you know,
leaders are like, actually, we shouldn't focus so much on babies,
We should focus more on the work. And you know,
how was it being pushed and pulled during that time

(45:49):
having a newborn doing all this work and traveling. And
it's still kind of like COVID times as well, so
things are still all a little bit weird.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
Things were very weird, you know. I mean the group
was pretty supportive of the kids, you know, I will
say that. And you know, the people in the group
are not bad people, you know, per se right, They're
like not mean, They're they're pleasant enough and you know,
they understand and they're sweet to the kids. And I
never had an issue there. It's just you know, like
you know, they kind of like you got a little like,

(46:23):
I don't know, I got a little like listen, like,
this is my daughter and you know, we're going to
raise our kids the way that we see fit, you know,
to raise these kids. And you know, I'm not letting
anyone in doctrinate my kid. Like it's just not like
they're going to be who they're going to be. And
you know, like you know, there's talk of like even
creating a daycare center, and I'm like, oh my god, Like,

(46:43):
you know, my wife's not going to quit her job
that pays her money with insurance to go start a
daycare center for you, and you're going to pay her
whatever you think you should, and you know, it's just
it's not going to happen. So like, you know, at
that point, I'm like, again, I'm in my mind, I'm done,
but I'm still physically like there with the group, you know.
So I started to you know, kind of like put

(47:06):
together my plan to get out of there, you know,
to kind of like whatever escape or vacate or you know.
And you know, over the over that period of time,
I think I slowly started to realize that, like it
would be way more difficult from my ex wife to
leave her, you know, her family, her brother and just
you know, I think that you know, over the years

(47:26):
that she there was a support system built within it
that you know, existed, and it just kind of, you know,
became more and more difficult. And uh, I'm not going
to go into too much detail about all that just
because it's still kind of playing out, but you know, things,
things fell apart, and yeah, I had to, you know,
for me, I had to, you know, anyone going through

(47:47):
anything like that, like you do at the end of
the day, have to prioritize your own mental health. You
have to prioritize your own life and journey, especially if
you have children. You need to be able to be
there for your children. You need to be lear. You
can't have these groups pulling you back in because you're
they're gonna they're going to re enter your mind space
right over and over again. Like you need to be clear,

(48:09):
you need to be out of that kind of wavelength,
you know, and it's very difficult to do that when
you're going in and out of these scenarios still with
the same group. Like like you know, most you know
deeprogrammers or you know, you know therapists that are involved,
like with you know, people exiting high control groups, they're like,
you need to clean, you need to clean break like

(48:31):
you can't, you know. And my whole struggle was for
two years, I'm like mentally not there anymore, but I'm
like still going in and out of the same people
and the group and trying to kind of like navigate
a family, but also not really wanting to be there anymore.
So it was it wasn't easy. But again I'll just emphasize,
like take care of your own mental health, you know,

(48:53):
prioritize that at the end of the day, and you know,
kind of do what you got to do there, and
you know, distance yourself from these groups because their subconscious
impact on you is more than you think. And then
the one thing I just wanted to say is you know,
one of the most important things for me is the
spirituality is you know, don't throw the baby out with

(49:15):
the bathwater, because there was a period when I came
out of this where I just did not want anything
to do with that. I didn't trust it, I didn't
you know. It was it was like I was almost
like very negative towards it. And then I kind of
re entered into it again. And the weird thing I
was going to say is I had met this guy
Kevin when I was really young.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
Nay written down here and circled it because you're like,
I'm late, and we'll talk about Kevin and just in
case we didn't kep.

Speaker 3 (49:44):
I met him at a rehearsal studio and I remember
asking him, Hey, what's up with this studio? Why do
you have all these CDs? This is when I was
seventeen years old, and he's like, oh, that's my father
in law has a record label and he makes music
world me or whatever. And I'm like, oh cool. So Kevin,
you know, he had a wife or girlfriend named Johnicky

(50:05):
and that was that, you know, and we would hang
out once in a while and I never really asked
much about his father in law at that point, you know,
so years later in the group, I start, you know,
getting involved, and like I said, I've always always reading independently,
like ram Das and Krishnadas, and you know, kind of
involved at that And I started listening to Krishnadas. And

(50:27):
then even a couple of years after that, I'm watching
the Krishnadas documentary one Track Heart, and in the documentary
is his daughter, and all of a sudden, I realized
that his daughter is Johnicky and Kevin is his son
in law. And this is ten years after that initial

(50:49):
moment that I walked into that rehearsal space and it
hits me like a lightning bolt, and I'm like whoa.
And at this point, i'm very much you know, like
again listening to kd I'm starting to feel this this
you know connection with Nimed Curly Baba as well, who
was his teacher. And I'm like wow, like that's so

(51:12):
weird and strange, you know, that this is the thing
that's keeping me from being fully indoctrinated. And the seed
of it came, or the first experience with it came
like ten years before I was even involved with this,
like when I was seventeen and I was like playing
metal and rock, and then when I exited the group
years after that, another let's say ten years after that, right,

(51:36):
twenty years maybe from the first initial thing or fifteen.
One of the first people I went and spoke to
about this situation was Kevin And the reason I spoke
to Kevin about it was because Krishnados was in a
cult as well for a period of time and he
put a video out there. And I find it very

(51:57):
hard to find people that can still practice spirituality sometimes
but but I but can also speak to the cult
right experience. So I reached out to Kevin. I'm like,
thank you for you know, having you know, tell Krishnas
thanks for putting this video out there because it's very
helpful content. And he's like, oh, you know, if you
ever want to, Christianavas said, you could give him a call.

(52:18):
So I end up talking to him about the whole
experience and everything right, and now you know, I talk
I've talked to him a couple of times about it,
and it just really helped me when I was exiting,
get back to feeling okay about spirituality again and pursuing
spirituality from my own angle and my own life, and
he's the one that again you know, gave me that

(52:40):
quote of you know, you know, doing these practices is
about finding your own heart, finding your own path, your
own way, trusting yourself. You know, you know, anyone who's
going to tell you what's right and wrong, you got
to run as far away as you can from a
person like that. You know, you need to figure out

(53:01):
what's right for you and your path. You know. So
that was a very trippy thing with you know, meeting
Kevin at such a you know, that seed at such
a young age, and then you know, seeing him while
in the group and kind of reinforcing like that model
of KD and that that kind of community, and then
years later, like being able to now talk about that

(53:21):
after very very weird.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
That you're thinking about, you know, leaving spirituality and kind
of wellness and everything behind altogether, and then this this
situation unfolds and you're like, hang on a minute, this
is a bit this is a bit too much of
those types of things.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Freak me out.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Yeah, well, there are a whole healthy groups, right casey,
Like that's the thing even Yeah, it's on you read
you know, different leaders in the space that write about it.
And talk about it, and there are healthy groups, you know.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
And healthy practices.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
It's just when the wrong people use those things to
exploit others, and it's such a shame. You know, you
talked about how much meditation still helps you now and
how you're able to kind of discern which parts of
yourself you wanted to keep, which parts you did that
you associated with the kind of like unhealthy group practices.
But going through that process and detangling everything and unweeding everything,

(54:36):
sometimes it's too much, it's overwhelming. Some people will never
go through that process. Some people spend a whole life
going through that process, you know, the whole rest of
their lives is a recovery.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Journey that never really that never really ends.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
But it's so sad again, not just to hear people
talk about the positive characteristics that they had pre cult
that they feel that you know, have kind of been tarnished,
but also the positive practices like you know, grounding yourself
and meditating and breathing, all of those things that you know,

(55:12):
some people will can't return to because it's too upsetting,
it's too difficult, it's too traumatic, it's just associated with
the cult.

Speaker 3 (55:21):
Well, I think a lot of people too, like you know,
they it's such a traumatic experience because it can be
a very traumatic experience. And I would never denote anyone's
experience that's been through something like this and how long
it takes them to personally recover from something like this.
I mean, these groups, there's emotional abuse, there's psychological abuse,

(55:44):
a lot of them. There's sexual abuse.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
Love's financial yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (55:49):
Trafficking, labor, trafficking, taxations, you know, all types of like
things that happen within these groups and to all different
levels of extremity. And you know, a person's ability to
overcome this, you can never judge that. You know. My
whole take on it, though, is like this happened, Okay,

(56:11):
I'm not going to look at it as a negative
thing anymore. I'm going to look at it as something
that happened that gives me the ability to help others
and potentially share the story at least, you know, and
you take you take what you want from the story.
You know, whether you think one way or the other,
that's all it is. You know, I have no bias

(56:32):
towards it, like there, you know, my time spent in
the group, there were positive aspects of it. You know,
like I got into meditation, I got into learning how
to you know, run a business. I got into learning
how to you know, be a little bit more mindful
of how I spend my day and how I present myself.
So I can't say that they were like everything was bad, right,

(56:54):
that's but I think the most important thing to remember
is you did that. Right. Sure, there's an energy, or
there's a force, or there's a life force that exists,
you know, that created all this, But your wins are
your wins and your losses or your losses. A lot
of times these groups they try to take credit for
your wins and then if you have.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
To blame you, Yeah, your wins are your wins and
your losses or your losses.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
And sure like some larger thing is creating all of
earth and no one's arguing that, you know. Yeah, But
like if I get up in the morning and I
decide to work that morning and learn something new, or
I decide to watch sports all morning, right, one of
them is maybe a little bit more productive than the
other one. But who am I to judge what someone
does with their life, right.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
And maybe to you know, depended on who you're asking,
they're both a win.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
Like maybe that person just needs to zone out for
the day, right, And so that's what always like kind
of drove me a little crazy about these groups, is
they like again, they try to take credit for the
wins in your life, like, oh, this is happening because
of this, and you're following that. But then if something
bad happens, it's like, oh, like you know, see, you
weren't fully committed or you weren't fully devoted, and it's
like no, man, life is up and down journey and

(58:06):
all humans go through that, and sometimes you're going to win,
and sometimes you're going to have tough moments and that's
just the way that life is at the end of
the day. Like you you you know, you got out
of it, you got out of the group. You took
responsibility for your own life and your own journey. And
that's the greatest service I think you could do for

(58:27):
God is take responsibility for your own journey. Here, you know,
whatever that means to you. You know, maybe just be
a great parent. You don't need to build a billion
dollar business. Or if you do build a business and
you want to donate or use it for good, great,
But like there's no difference, right, we just want to
be the show off as the best version of ourselves
each day, you know.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
And the kind of wellness practices that you've mentioned that
I think.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Are exploited and and you know.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Are a way of predators to take advantage of people
are based in things like vulnerability and connection and openness.
And again, these are positive things that we carry with
us that can change our lives for the better or
be used by other people to benefit them. It's so

(59:22):
hard to go through that process. But I think you're
so right in everything you've said about, you know, just
being a bit kinder to ourselves and recognizing our wins
as our own. And that can be empowering, right, you know,
something good happens and you're like, yes, I recognize where
I impacted that, and I think that's I think that's great.

(59:42):
And also just to recognize something from before when you're
putting this text chain with fifteen other people and you're
being kind of berated in front of everybody, These kind
of public humiliation rituals can have but even if you're
not in physical proximity to a group, and I think

(01:00:05):
that just shows the power a leader can.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Have even if you're not with you know, in.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
A room with a group of people in a circle
of chairs, or you're called up to the pulpit or
anything like that, and just to kind of hear that,
nobody in that text chain reached out to ask how
you were. And you know that that just speaks to
the power of conformity and how tough that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Must have been as well. Oh, one one person.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
Reached out, one out of fifteen. And you know, to
be honest, you know, I look at it as like,
you know, like I try to look at it as
a nice person doing a nice thing, But I don't
know why they were reaching out. That's the thing, you know,
she could have been like, hey, you know, can you really.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Try and feed back information to the to the group?

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Yeah, maybe beyond her. I mean, you have with these
kind of groups, the flying monkey. If you ever heard
of that, it's yeah, yeah, it's a term for when
these narcissistic leaders kind of deploy these you know, they're
they're kind of devotees on other devotees, right, other people
in the group. And then you have the triangulation, which
is very popular with narcissism, right, look tactical where there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
But this particular thing that that, this, this, that that
this leader has done here.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
I don't know how you think about it in terms
of narcissism, but I feel like this person tried so
many different ways to control you through, you know, kind
of being a third person in your marriage, trying to
have a say in the.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Birth of your daughter.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
And you know, you've mentioned being uncontrollable, and narcissists can't can't,
can't deal well with that. So slowly over TI, she
revealed herself right, her true self, and you know, just
they're gonna I'm going to kick you out and separate
you from your family. Like that's an an ultimate narcissistic
move in showing exactly who they out because they can't

(01:02:00):
control you, and that's not something a narcissist does well
with being told no.

Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
Well, she even told my ex wife, I can't control Michael,
so I'm going to use you. Oh latantly said that
like once you know, and uh, if I ever write
a book, it's going to be called uncontrollable, let me
tell you. But yes, you know, they there are these
types of people, these leaders of these groups. They're also

(01:02:29):
very good at they're very socially aware, you know, and
they're very good at identifying. They're very good at identifying
what within you they can work with. You know, what
works within me, that won't work within Casey, that won't
work within Joseph for right an Lee or whatever Sarah.

(01:02:49):
They figure out what works in that specific person and
they and they motivate and move with that. And me
it was career, it was business. It was building me
up to be this, you know, type of leader for
the group like that, whereas another it was more about
their seeking and their enlightenment and they want to be enlightened.
And because I always could give a crap about it
being enlightened like it it seemed like a bummer anyway,

(01:03:10):
you know, Okay, I'm enlightened. Now what do I do
with the rest the next forty years of my life?
Now I'm going to sit around, you know, so like,
but you'll find a way right to specifically infiltrate your
own like desires and needs and value system and then
kind of use those, you know, to manipulate you. So
that's what you got to watch out for with narcissists,

(01:03:31):
Is that type of behavior?

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean I know that you've mentioned that
there's potentially some things in the works, and there's you know,
your situation is still unfolding in some aspects. So I
don't know if there'll be an opportunity for us to
talk again in the future where you might be able
to maybe give us a bit more insight into certain
things and go into some more details about things that

(01:03:54):
we can't fully explore today for various reasons. But I
would love to have that kind of catch up conversation
if if the opportunity ever comes around, and you've had
so much insightful stuff to share with the listeners today,
it's it's clear that you've gone from this experience and

(01:04:17):
sought even further more down the kind of the cult
realm and understanding you know, what happened to you and
what's happening to other people. And I think it's always
really if it's it feels hopeful when people come to
these conversations and they have all of the language to
describe the mechanisms that they experienced, and you know, people have.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
Gone out and learned.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Exactly what processes they were put through in order to
be you know, attempted to be controlled. And then we
can have these conversations with other people and they can
have those conversations and maybe they could say, oh my gosh,
that's what's happened to my sister. I had absolutely no idea,
you know. And it's like you said before we hit record,
just being able to have these conversations to maybe stop

(01:05:07):
this from happening to the next Michael, you just don't
know what the ripple effect is. And I think it's
really powerful when people come and share their story. So
I can't really thank you enough, Michael, in coming to
share in your wisdom and you know, your education and
the things that you've learned through all these different things
you've put together.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
Yeah, well, thank you for having me. Thanks for being
a platform for this. You know, when it comes to
educating people about this stuff, I think we've seen a
rise in this topic in the true crime kind of
you know genre, and just overall like a public perception
of it. I think that these types of platforms are

(01:05:46):
the most important thing because there aren't a lot of
great laws around this type of stuff to protect people.
So I think by using content, by using different types
of media, this is doing that work right now of
preventative awareness and also building community for people exiting. I
think people need content they need to feel connection after
these types of things happen to them. You know, I
would just like to end by saying that, like anybody

(01:06:08):
in a situation like who might be hearing this, like, really,
trust your own heart. This is your life, right, you
got one, this is it, You're in it. Trust your heart.
You know, you don't owe anybody anything, that's the main thing.
You owe nobody nothing, You owe no allegiance, you owe
no loyalty like that. Trust your own heart, your own mind,

(01:06:30):
your own feelings, your own confusion. Like there's a reason
why you're feeling certain things in these types of situations,
and do not ignore that feeling. You know, it's a
biological alert, don't ignore it. Trust that stuff, Trust your
own heart, trust the way you're feeling in these types
of situations. And don't be afraid. There's nothing that these people.

(01:06:54):
There's nothing anyone can do to you. You know. That's
what I was told, And I just want to relay
that message as well. And uh, and it's probably the
most important one that you know, I received during my time.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
So I think that's such a strong thing to end on.
I usually wrap up the conversations by asking if somebody
you know is listening and they are going through these
same experiences.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
What would you say, but you said it all. You
summoned it up apaly I know, and a biological alert.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
I've written that down. That's that's so good. That is
that's that's a fantastic little little.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):
That's one of the things that the mind control of
these these groups. It can't override it, you know, it's
just ingrained in us. So that's why I always use
that that term.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Yeah, that's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
I'm gonna I'm gonna pinch that one and I'll give
you I'll give you credit when I use it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
In other episodes. We'll here, we say it from now on.
All right, thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
I look forward to hopefully a catch up episode where
we can discuss more things. But until then, Paul, thank
you so much and enjoy the rest of your day.

Speaker 3 (01:08:03):
Welcome and thank you too.