June 20, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of CultureHug, we dive into the hidden realities of men’s mental health—where stigma, silence, and societal expectations collide. From domestic violence and depression to toxic masculinity and emotional suppression, we explore why many men struggle in silence and touch on the intersectionalities of queer, trans, straight and BIPOC men related to mental health.
We break down the science, the cultural roots, and the lyrics of Dax’s music to examine how vulnerability can be strength. Plus, we share practical ways to support the men in your life and explain why men's mental health is a feminist issue, too.
Sources:
We break down the science, the cultural roots, and the lyrics of Dax’s music to examine how vulnerability can be strength. Plus, we share practical ways to support the men in your life and explain why men's mental health is a feminist issue, too.
Sources:
- "A Guide for Male Survivors of Domestic Violence" (Excerpts from DomesticShelters.org)
- "Dax - From A Man's Perspective (Lyrics)" (Excerpts from the transcript of the video uploaded on the YouTube channel "VALKYRIE'S MUSIC")
- "Dax - From A Man's Perspective | Reaction to Vulnerability, Healing & Men's Mental Health" (Excerpts from the transcript of the video uploaded on the YouTube channel "Happy Man Happy Home")
- "Dax Breaks Down Barriers with “From A Man's Perspective” - Neon Music" (Excerpts from Neon Music by Marcus Adetola)
- "Dax Discusses His New Album 'From A Man's Perspective' | TikTok" (Excerpts from TikTok by ABC News Live)
- "Engaging Men in Psychological Treatment: A Scoping Review - PMC - PubMed Central" (Excerpts from PMC - PubMed Central by Zac E Seidler et al.)
- "Exploring Dax's "To Be a Man": A Reflection on Masculinity and Vulnerability - Official Site of L. Neil Thrussell" (Excerpts from Official Site of L. Neil Thrussell)
- "Feminism is for Men, Too - Feminist Majority Foundation" (Excerpts from Feminist Majority Foundation by Cynthia Sutanto)
- "How Society's Male Gender Expectations Are Tough on Men's Mental Health" (Excerpts from FHE Health by Chris Foy)
- "I can't believe I got interviewed on @ABC News about my New Album “Fro... | TikTok" (Excerpts from TikTok by Dax)
- "Male depression: Understanding the issues - Mayo Clinic" (Excerpts from Mayo Clinic Staff)
- "Males and Mental Health Stigma - PMC" (Excerpts from PMC by Benita N Chatmon)
- "Men's Health Month | National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI)" (Excerpts from NAMI)
- "Men's Mental Health Help-Seeking Behaviors: An Intersectional Analysis - PMC" (Excerpts from PMC by Mike C Parent et al.)
- "Men's Mental Health Stigma - Johns Hopkins University Human Resources" (Excerpts from Johns Hopkins University Human Resources)
- "Men's loneliness is a feminist issue in Men Without Men | The Clayman Institute for Gender Research - Stanford University" (Excerpts from The Clayman Institute for Gender Research, Stanford University by Claire Urbanski)
- "Redefining Masculinity in Mental Health, - Individual Care of Texas" (Excerpts from Individual Care of Texas)
- "Societal Expectations and The Impact on Men's Mental Health - Higgins Wellness" (Excerpts from Higgins Wellness by Noah McCarter)
- "Suicide Data and Statistics - CDC" (Excerpts from CDC)
- "To Be A Man by Dax: Review - Illustrate Magazine" (Excerpts from Illustrate Magazine by Gabe Finch)
- "Understanding Boys' Mental Health - Office of Children's Mental Health - Wisconsin.gov" (Excerpts from Wisconsin.gov, Office of Children's Mental Health)
- "Understanding Male Pain Through Song Lyrics - TikTok" (Excerpts from TikTok by Dax)
- "Understanding Pain Through Lyrics: A Man's Perspective - TikTok" (Excerpts from TikTok by Dax)
- "Why Feminism Is Good For Men's Mental Health - Year13" (Excerpts from Year13 by James)
- "“I'm Fine”: How to Talk to the Men in Your Life About Their Mental Health | Jefferson Center" (Excerpts from Jefferson Center)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
In the quiet place, swish.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Words on food like whispers in the air to go
whoe we start.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to the Culture Hook podcast, your space to learn
and learn and grow, one hug and one episode at
a time.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Okay, let's dive in. It's June, right, and June is
this amazing month. It's kind of buzzing with energy, you know,
celebrating Men's Health Month and Pride Month both happening at
the same time.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Right. That intersection is really interesting, it really is.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And when you look right there at that intersection, you
find a topic that's just it's absolutely crucial, but it's
often pushed into the shadows and honestly pretty misunderstood men's
mental health exactly men's mental health. And you're seeing artists now,
people with real passion, real energy, like Dax for example,
putting this topic right out front right challenging us all
(01:03):
to actually look at it.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
It's true, it does feel like the conversation is maybe
finally starting to get the volume it actually deserves. Our
sources really underscore that this is a deep, complex issue.
It needs more than just a quick.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Glance totally, and that's exactly what we're doing today, this
deep dive We've put it together specifically for you, our listener.
We're going to explore the whole landscape men's mental health,
the intense, sometimes really crushing pressures society piles onto guys,
and importantly, why figuring out how to express emotions instead
of just bottling them up until you feel like you're
(01:39):
going to explode. Why that's just non negotiable for well being.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
And we've pulled together a pretty solid stack of sources
for this.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, articles from places like the Mayo Clinic, PubMed research papers,
and some really raw, insightful personal reflections reactions from people
engaging with this exact topic. Yeah, it's a powerful mix.
Let's see it from a bunch of different angles.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Okay, good. So our mission here is to really dig
into these sources, pull out the absolute most important stuff.
You want to understand the why why are men facing
these struggles? We want to challenge some seriously outdated ideas
about what it supposedly means to be manly.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, those need challenging for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
And hammer home why finding safe ways to be vulnerable
isn't just okay, it's actually one of the strongest things
you can possibly do.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
That's such a key point strength and vulnerability exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So get ready because we're going to tackle this head on.
Let's unpack this, let's do all right, So let's start
with the basics. Why do we need to talk about
men's mental health right now? Like, what makes this moment,
this timing so critical?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, picking up on your point about June being men's
health month, yeah, yeah, the calendar gives us a timely hook, right,
but the reasons go way way deeper than just the month.
Our sources, like the ones from Mayo Clinic and Research
and PubMed, they make it really clear. While mental health
effects everyone, sure, men face these specific challenges that are
(03:06):
often just overlooked.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And these aren't small challenges either. The data is frankly,
it's alarming. For instance, there's information highlighted by I think
it was the Feminist Majority Foundation source. It states that
men die by suicide at a rate four times higher
than women, four times four times higher. That number just
it just stops you in your tracks.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
You know, it's a devastating statistic, it really is. And
what makes it even more urgent as that the same
source points out, is the stark contrast. Despite this dramatically
higher risk of death by suicide men are considerably less
likely to seek any form of professional treatment compared to
women anyway. Wow, it's dangerous paradox, right, the group with
(03:47):
the highest risk is actually the least likely to go get.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Help, exactly, higher risk, lower help seeking. That gap just
screams for attention. It's a huge red flag. Massive and
bringing back the gym theme again. It's also the Domestics
Shelters dot Org source adds another really crucial layer here.
It highlights that male survivors of domestic violence, and this
includes gay and bisexual men, they face these unique, really
(04:13):
significant barriers when they try to reach out for help.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
That's such an essential point about intersectionality. The Feminist Majority
Foundation source touches on this too.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Your sectionality.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, it's not just about being a man, it's about
which man. What are the intersecting identities. So for gay
or bisexual male survivors, like the source mentions, there might
be fears about being outed right, and that fear could
be used as a control tactic by an abuser or tragically,
if HIV status is involved, that could also be weaponized.
(04:42):
It just makes the thought of seeking help feel incredibly,
incredibly risky. The domestic shelters dot Org source really details
how these specific vulnerabilities can make reaching out even more terrifying.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
So, okay, you've got this general widespread reluctance men often
have towards seeking help. And then layered on top of
that are these unique intense barriers for specific groups of men.
And all of this is happening against the backdrop of
an alarmingly high suicide way. This isn't just some niche
mental health topic. It feels more like a major public
(05:16):
health crisis that's kind of hiding in plain sight.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
That's a good way to put it. Yeah, and the
sources consistently point to a core culprit driving this reluctance,
which is stigma.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Ah, stigma always comes back to stigma, doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
It's a huge piece of this puzzle. The plubmed treatment
source Mayo Clinic, and there's a specific pup meed source
just on stigma. They all show this pattern. Men are
less likely to come forward, less likely to admit their struggling,
sometimes even less likely to acknowledge they even need help.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Right, And that pupmed stigma source, it really breaks down
what stigma is in this context, because it's not just
one simple thing, is it.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
No, not at all. It describes social stigma first, So
that's the negative attitudes and beliefs coming from other people,
the idea that mental illness is a sign of weakness,
maybe a.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Character flaw, and that leads to discrimination.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, it can lead to discrimination. People may be avoiding
you if they know you're struggling, then separate but related
their self stigma. Okay, that's what happens. When you internalize
all that negativity from society, you start to feel shame
or embarrassment, maybe guilt about your own mental health.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Challenge to turn it inward on yourself exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
And then there's cultural stigma. This is about how mental
health is viewed and interpreted within specific cultural contexts where
it might be deeply taboo just not something you talk
about ever.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And that source gaves such a powerful, really specific example
of cultural stigma, didn't it within the black community?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
It did, noting that mental health can sometimes be seen
as taboo or a sign of weakness. There and it
connects us back to a really painful.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
History, the Tuskegee Experiment.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, things like the Tuskegee Experiment which created this lasting,
understandable distrust of the healthcare system for generations that history
makes seeking help from the official channels incredibly difficult for some.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Understanding those historical and cultural roots is just it's absolutely vital,
isn't it. It explains why the stigma isn't just some
surface level issue for many communities.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
It runs deep, so deep, And this reluctance, this pervasive stigma,
it connects directly back to those traditional male roles and
expectations we mentioned earlier. Those ideas are constantly reinforced all
around us. You see that connection throughout the male clinic source,
the PubMed treatment source, and that Higgins Wellness source too.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Ah. Yes, the weight of expectation. This is where we
get into what the source is kind of collectively call
society's man box. Yeah, it's a pretty vivid way to
put it, isn't it like being crammed into this pre defined,
rigid shape.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It really is. And the Higgins Wellness Source provides this
really telling list of what supposedly falls inside this man box.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Like what's on the list?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Okay, So it includes expectations like being the sole provider
that pressure, raising kids with this kind of iron fist discipline,
the idea that you should rarely if ever show emotions,
I'm listlaid. Maybe it's anger angers off of the exception.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Right, anger gets a pass. Sometimes. What else?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
The pressure to constantly be physically fit, only enjoying quote
unquote manly hobbies, you know, sports, fixing cars, that kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Avoiding doctors until you're practically at death's store.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
That's on the list. Having specific ways you're supposed to
dress or wear your hair, always having to take charge,
needing to be physically attractive to women, having a high
sex drive, and always being ready to fight back if
you feel challenged.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Ohow, just listening to that list is exhausting.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
It is. And the Illustrate magazine review we looked at
calls these out specifically as harmful societal expectations.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Harmful, Yeah, that seems accurate.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
What's kind of crazy, as the sources highlight, is how
incredibly early these expectations start. The Higgins Wellness source mentioned
something as simple as like dressing male infants only in blue,
or the toys or the types of toys boys are
typically given, trucks, soldiers, action figures. It's setting these expectations
before a kid even has a chance to figure out
(09:11):
who they are. As an individual.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It really is like being handed a script at birth.
Here's your box. Fit into it, don't deviate pretty much.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And one of the most damaging things that gets crammed
into that box, according to the Higgins Wellness source, is
the angry man stereotype.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
The angry man okay, tell me about that?
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Well, this stereotype is fascinating and frankly pretty sad when
you break it down. It captures the really limited emotional
range that men are often allowed to show.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
So it's either anger or nothing kind of.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
The source describes two extremes this leads to. On one hand,
you might get explosive, damaging, outward anger, lashing out, okay.
On the other hand, you get overregulated, internalized anger. That's
where all that frustration, all that emotion gets pushed inward,
just buried deep.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Down, and that internalized stuff that's where the bottling up happens,
right exactly. The YouTube reaction video we looked at, the
one reacting to Dax's music, made such a powerful point
about this.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah what did they say?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
They pointed out how expressing emotions anything other than maybe
anger or just being completely stoic, is often seen as weak,
and men get belittled or mocked for it.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
That connection is totally spot on. The reactor even quoted
Dakas Lyrics saying something like when we do explain express
we lose the upper hand.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Wow, lose the upper hand.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
That line perfectly captures the perceived cost of vulnerability, doesn't
it The idea that showing feeling is somehow giving up
power or control or status.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, like it makes you less of a man in
some way. And what happens when you constantly stuff everything
down like that YouTube reaction noted, It leads to this
frustration and stress that just it just eats away at
you from the inside like.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
A slow burn. Yeah, and the sources show that's not
just a feeling. It has real, actual physical consequences slate
like what the Higgins Wellness in Male clinic sources detail
how this internalized stress can manifest physically. We're talking about
things like hair loss, unexplained weight gain, skin rashes, chronic.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Fatigue, even teeth grinding.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Even grinding your teeth at night. Higgins Wellness source adds
that sometimes doctors might run all sorts of tests and
not find a clear physical cause. Why because the root
problem is this enormous unexpressed emotional burden.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Wow, so it's not just in your head. Your body
literally starts breaking down under the pressure of holding it
all in. That's intense, it really is.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, And speaking of harmful molds or stereotypes, the sources
also talk about that online narrative of the alpha male.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Ugh, yeah, the alpha male. What do the sources say
about that?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yes? The Higgins Wellness source describes this concept that's unfortunately
gained a lot of traction online, this idea of the
abusive alpha male. Abusive, Yeah, that's the term used. The
description is pretty specific, supposedly physically and mentally at their peak,
feeling nothing but rage, apparently openly to despising women and feminism,
objectifying women constantly how's like a charmer? Right? Also being
(12:06):
the smart, confident leader and seeing any man who isn't
constantly asserting dominance or God forbid, shows any weakness as
inferior less than.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So basically a caricature of toxic masculinity.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Pretty much, and the critique from the source is crucial here.
It points out that this narrative actively warps psychological health.
It preys on men's deepest insecurities. Ohso by making any
guy who doesn't fit this aggressive, emotionally void, frankly impossible
mold feel like a failure, like they're doing being a
man wrong.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
And that, according to the source, directly feeds into things
like misogynistic attitudes, homophobia, general rage.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And critically avoiding therapy or seeking any kind of help
because in that alpha worldview, asking for help is seen
as the ultimate sign of weakness.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
So it's this genuinely toxic loop. It traps men in
unhealthy behaviors and a really damaging emotional states. It's the
man box, but like hyper masculinized and weaponized.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
That's a really good way to put it. Weaponized, it
really is.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
And this, I think is where art can be incredibly powerful.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Do you mean well?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Art can cut through all that noise, all that pressure.
It can show the reality, the vulnerability, make you feel
less alone in it, which brings us to Dax's work,
specifically to Be a Man, which is mentioned in our
sources right.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
The Illustrated magazine review called his album both powerful and introspective,
said it shines a light on men's emotional struggles and
those societal expectations we've been talking about.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, and that YouTube reaction we watched the one focusing
specifically on his song from a man's perspective. It really
captured how deeply that song resonated with people.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
He seemed genuinely moved totally.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
The reactors were talking about the raw emotion and the passion,
and honestly, listening to the album myself, I completely got it.
You can just feel how much heart and soul he
poured into those tracks. That raw emotion is undeniable. It's
powerful stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
It clearly struck a Yeah, so let's maybe dig into
some of those specific lyrical themes from a man's perspective
that the reactors highlighted because they connect directly back to
everything we've been discussing.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Okay, yeah, let's do that. The reactors zeroed in on
the very beginning of the song. There's a disagreement, right,
and the woman in the song calls him an absolute
for showing emotion.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, And the reactor's immediate reaction was perfect. They said
his feelings were not validated, and that calling a man
that is quite a degrading thing.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
That opening alone is just it's a perfect painful example
of the stigma male vulnerability faces, even from someone who's
supposed to be close to you. Yeah right, It immediately
shuts down any expression instantly.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Then the lyrics dive into the really difficult process of
leaving a toxic relationship. The reactor pulled out lines like
had to log off, your passwords changed, you always tried
to run, I wasn't down to chase your trauma made you.
I tried to give you faith, took my kindness and
threw it right back in my face. And that really
poignant line hurt me to leave, but was killing me
(15:07):
to stay.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Those lines, as the reactor pointed out, they just capture
the messy, painful reality of trying to navigate an unhealthy relationship,
the frustration, the effort you put in that isn't reciprocated. Yeah,
and that ultimate, incredibly difficult decision to leave for your
own well being even though it hurts, is relatable pain
for a lot of people, I.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Think for sure. And the vulnerability in his words. The
reactor highlighted lines like days I'd beg and I'd plead
for you to just calm down, And then your words
used to hurt me, they would bring me to my knees,
called me pathetic trash week.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Wow, those lines are incredibly brave to put out there.
He's showing a man openly admitting to emotional pain, to begging,
to being brought to his knees by words, to being
called pathetic trash week. Yeah, these are direct counter examples
to that whole idea that men should be unaffected or stoic. Right,
(15:59):
He's showing the real cost of that kind of verbal abuse.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
You can also really hear the pressure building in the song.
That feeling we talked about, the one that eats away
at you. It comes through in lines like pressure I
was feeling was right up to my neck, and anxiety,
depression that was weighing on my chest, constant allegations, the
blatant disrespect.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
That directly mirrors the physical and emotional toll of internalized
stress that the Higgins Wellness in Mayo clinic sources discussed.
He's putting that feeling into words, that suffocating pressure, the
actual physical weight of anxiety and depression, the constant mental
drain of conflict and disrespect.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
The reactor also picked up on that feeling of being trapped,
the line I was going crazy. I was a shell
of a man, trapped in your cage, lost in your maze,
blinded by love addicted to the pain.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
That's a powerful metaphor, isn't it feeling lost and consumed
by an unhealthy dynamic? Just losing your sense of self
completely within it, totally.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
But the lines that seem to resonate most deeply with
the reactors, and I think they really connect everything we've
discussed so far. Were these pain sounds different when it's
coming from a man we not allowed to feel, be real,
explain express Ah?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, that right there, that's the core message, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
It feels like it? The YouTube reactor explicitly related to this,
saying it captures what the modern man faces. They talked
about feeling belittled for expressing pain, which basically taught them
to just bottle it all up.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
So it's the heart of the issue, that societal suppression,
that active discouragement of male emotional expression.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
It's not just a lyric in a song. It's like
a distillation of the entire problem we're talking about. Another
point the reactor noted was the line we only have
value based on what we can provide.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Hmm yeah, linking back to that societal expectation of men
primarily being the providers exactly It shows how these external
pressures invade even our most intimate relationships, shaping a man's
sense of worth based on his utility, his function, rather
than his inherent value as a human being.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
It's rough, and there's that one brief, almost dark, humorous
line the reactor highlighted too, about blaming actions on a
zodiac sign.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Oh yeah, I remember that.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
The reactor interpreted that as an example of using excuses
to avoid accountability for causing pain, which is, you know,
a communication breakdown, relevant way beyond just this one song.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Definitely, it's a relatable moment of frustration with those relational
dynamics where honest communication and taking responsibility are missing.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
So the real power of Dax's song, according to these
sources and the reactions we saw, is it's sheer relatability.
The YouTube reactor's flat out said they related with every
single thing he said towards the end there.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
That level of connection is incredibly significant. And that TikTok
comment you mentioned earlier, you speak for us who can't. Yeah,
that just shows the impact, doesn't it. His willingness to
express these difficult, vulnerable feelings publicly resonates because so many feel.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
They can't exactly Dax putting his heart and soul out there.
As the reactor put it, it becomes a kind of
model for others. It shows concretely that this kind of
raw emotional expression can be done. It's possible. It's a
public challenge to that ingrained idea that men shouldn't show
emotion or vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
It provides this tangible example of emotional authenticity, and maybe
that gives other men permission, or at least the idea
that they too can explore and express their own feelings
without it being a catastrophe.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
So okay, if that's the problem, bottling up the stigma,
the man box, how do we actually start to change things?
How do we break down that box and build a
world where men genuinely feel safe being themselves emotions at all.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Well, it absolutely starts like our episode focus notes right
with actively challenging and dismantling those harmful norms and expectations
we have to consciously push back against. It doesn't happen passively.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
And the Higgins Wellness source gives us some fantastic counter
narratives to work with, some really positive reframesck what it
offers statements like showing emotions is never weak, just a
full stop, okay. Or every man deserves to show and
receive affection. Caring for children is a strength, not a
weakness or something feminine. No man is weak because of
the way he dresses, talks, or expresses himself. And this
(20:10):
one is crucial. Men should process their feelings instead of
bottling them up.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Those aren't just like feel good phrases, are they? Yeah?
They are direct, powerful antidotes to the poison of the
man box. They offer a completely alternative vision of what
masculinity can look.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Like, A healthier vision, definitely.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
But how do we move from these ideas, these counter narratives,
to actually creating the spaces where vulnerability is genuinely safe.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
That's the hard part, right, And the Jefferson Center source
provides some incredibly practical strategies for how people around men, friends, family, partners,
colleagues can actively help create that safety.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Okay, we like what kind of strategies.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Well, one really powerful way is by dismantling stereotypes through
sharing your own mental health experiences. If you're comfortable, obviously,
the source suggests saying something like, you know what I
was going through that rough patch with my depression? Does
that sound anything like what you might be experiencing.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Is it opening up yourself first?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Exactly? That simple act normalizes the struggle. It makes the
other person feel seen, less alone, less like there's something
wrong with them. It immediately lowers the barrier to them
opening up.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
That makes sense. What else?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Another great idea they suggested is the walk and talk.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Walk and talk.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, Instead of a heavy face to face sit down
that might feel like an interrogation or some big.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Intervention which can be super intimidating.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Totally suggest talking while doing something active they enjoy, like
going for a walk or maybe working on a car
or a project together. It's just less intimidating and less
direct eye contact. Maybe could be part of it. And
as the source points out, walking itself is actually beneficial
helps with stress relief, improves cognition, can decrease symptoms of
depression and anxiety, so bonus benefits.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Okay, walk and talk. I like that practical tip.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
If you know someone is clearly going through something tough,
or you know they have a history with a particular issue,
The source advises acknowledging it directly, but always respectfully and
leave an opening.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Don't demand they talk, so not ignoring it but not
forcing it.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Either, exactly like saying, hey, I know losing your grandparent
has been incredibly difficult, and I just wanted to let
you know I'm here for you if you ever want
to talk about it. No pressure at all.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Right, it shows you see their pain, You're acknowledging it
without demanding they perform vulnerability for you right then and.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
There, precisely. And this next one is deceptively simple, but
it's backed by a really surprising statistic.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Ask twice, Ask twice. What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
If you ask someone, hey, how are you and they
give that default automatic I'm fine or good, don't just
accept it and move on, especially if you suspect they're
not fine. Ask again, like no, really, yeah, something like no, really,
how are you doing? I care about you? Just checking in.
The source highlights that a staggering seventy eight percent of
people say I'm fine even when they are genuinely.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Strugglingly seventy eight percent.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Wow, I know. Often the source says it's because they
don't want to burgin you, or sadly they actually doubt
you're truly interested. They think it's just a social pleasantry.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
So that second more genuine ask it can be the
signal they need that you actually mean it, that it
might be safe to open up just a little exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
That's seventy eight percent stat is wild, isn't It Just
shows how ingrained that reflex is to just tough it out,
put on a brave face. That second question validates your care.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
That's a really useful tip. Ask twice.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
And this whole idea of creating safe spaces, it's echoed
in the Feminist Majority Foundation source too. They emphasize listening
without judgment, providing forms where guys can actually practice a
healthier form of masculinity. The Voice to Men examples mentioned
in that source, like they're facilitated discussion circles perfect examples
of this inaction.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Right. Creating intentional spaces and role models are all so
absolutely critical here, according to both the Higgins Wellness and
Feminist Majority Foundation sources. How So, they both point to
a lack of stable, positive male role models, especially maybe
father figures, as being a significant risk factor for men
who struggle later in life.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
So we need more examples of healthy masculinity.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Out there, we desperately do.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
The Feminist Majority Foundation source talks about how people involved
in organizations like Boys to Men actually model this healthy masculinity,
and the key way they do it is through personal vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Sharing their own stuff, yeah, sharing.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Their own struggles, their own pain, like the example they
gave of Taiamni Goodshield. It also involves constantly evaluating yourself,
looking at your own behavior, what the source describes as
swimming against the current of traditional, often toxic, patriarchal masculinity.
It takes conscious effort, it's not passive, not at all,
(24:53):
and presenting positive examples to younger generations is huge. The
source mentions researcher Madeline Amus how important it is to showcase, say,
male athletes who actively champion gender equality.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Why athletes specifically because kids who look.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Up to those athletes are more likely to actually listen
when those athletes talk about what healthy manhood looks like.
They have influence. Right.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
It's about showing men that authenticity isn't a weakness, It's
actually a path to health and strength. It's not about
being perfect, but about showing the struggle, the effort, the
humanity exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
And this loops back beautifully to relationships, doesn't it, especially
romantic ones and the vital importance of communication.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah. The YouTube reaction to Dax's song brought up that
communication dynamic again. Like the example they used the difference
between hearing you look good versus maybe you look beautiful
in a moment of vulnerability, subtle but meaningful.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Right, and the Reactor highlighted the communication is just fundamentally key.
A lack of communication is such a massive problem in
relationships for everyone, for everyone, And it's not just about
your communication style being right. It's about making a real
effort to understand the other person's perspective. The Reactor's interpretation
of that line from the song something like, if you
think you're doing everything right from her perspective, it might
(26:11):
not be enough. That's spot on. Yeah. It shows the
need for empathy for actually trying to see it from
their side, recognizing that your intention might not match their
experience or their needs.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
That applies universally, doesn't it. Partners, friends, family, even colleagues
at work. Improving men's ability to communicate what's going on
inside them and improving how others receive and interpret that communication,
it seems foundational to better relationships and ultimately better mental health.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Couldn't agree more so?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Okay, beyond these personal interactions and individual actions. What about
broader support systems like professional help.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, that's crucial too. The Mayo Clinic source is very
clear effective treatments for depression and other mental health conditions
absolutely exist. Professional support is a valid, important option to
be encouraged, not seen as a last resort or a failure.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
And the Pubmid Treatment source went into a bit more
detail about the type of professional help. Right tailoring it.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yes, exactly. It emphasizes the need to tailor psychological treatments
specifically to men's unique needs. Therapists need to acknowledge the
profound impact that masculine socialization, that manbox stuff has had
on them.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
So what does tailoring look like in practice, Well, it
might mean therapists adapting their language, maybe using metaphors or
examples that resonate more strongly with certain male experiences or interests.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
It could mean adopting therapeutic styles that feel more collaborative,
more transparent, maybe more action or goal oriented. Some men
find that more engaging than just talking endlessly about feelings
with no clear direction. Okay, and really importantly, it requires clinicians, therapists, doctors,
everyone to be aware of their own biases and beliefs
(27:52):
about gender and masculinity, and to understand that men aren't
a monolith. There are multiple masculinities that exist to be
flexible enough to meet men where they are, respecting their
individual identity.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
That point about multiple masculinity is feels so important. Not
every guy experiences the world or these pressures in the
same way at all, not even close.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
And the sources also list some specific resources that are
designed with men in mind trying to bridge that gap,
like Heads Up Guys, Man Therapy, and NUATP. Those are
mentioned in the Higgins Wellness source any and an am I. Yeah,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness. That's another key resource mentioned,
offering things like a helpline and crucially the nine eighty
(28:33):
eight crisis line for immediate support.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
So there are resources trying to meet men where they are,
using language and approaches that might help overcome some of
those barriers to seeking help we talked about earlier.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
That's the goal, Yeah, making it feel more accessible, less alienating.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Okay, and finally let's touch on something that might initially
sound surprising to some listeners, but which the sources argue
is actually incredibly relevant and beneficial for men's mental health,
which is feminism?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Ah? Yes, Both the Feminist Majority Foundation and the Year
thirteen sources make a really strong case that feminism isn't
just for women, it's for men too, and that men
actually stand to benefit significantly from progress towards gender equality.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Okay, so how does that work? Specifically, how does feminism
benefit men's mental health?
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Well, according to these sources, feminism benefits men by actively
working to dismantle the very patriarchal systems that create these rigid, harmful,
limiting expectations and roles for men in the first place.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Ah okay, So the system that builds the man box,
the patriarchy, is what feminism is fundamentally challenging, and by
breaking down that system, it liberates men from those constraints too.
Is that the idea?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
That's precisely the idea? The Year thirteen source frames feminism
as a tool, like a lens you can use to
examine how gender shapes everyone's lives, men included, and importantly,
it helps build a new, more positive idea of what
it means to be.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
A man, idea that isn't trapped by those old, damaging,
outdated rules exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
And the Feminist Majority Foundation source also includes that powerful
quote from Bell Hook's The Incredible Writer and Activists, What
You Say, emphasizing that men need other men to challenge patriarchy,
can't just be women doing that work, and that male
friendships specifically are absolutely critical places to build the essential
emotional skills that traditional masculinity often stifles or forbids, things
(30:25):
like reciprocity, truly listening to understand, expressing solidarity, showing genuine
care for each other.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Wow. So healthy, emotionally open male friendships are actually kind
of a feminist issue because they help men break free
from those patriarchal constraints on their emotional lives.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
They are deeply interconnected, Yes, and that idea mentioned in
the feminist Majority Foundation source through those boys to men
examples like going on surfing or fishing trips together. Yeah,
the idea of centering joy and community through shared activities.
That's another way to cultivate those positive relational skills. It
happens in environments that feel less like a pressure cooker
(31:04):
a therapy session and more natural, more organic.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
So it's not always about sitting down for a heavy,
intense talk. Sometimes it's just about building connection and trust
through shared experience, shared enjoyment.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Absolutely, and as the Feminist Majority Foundation source importantly notes,
looking through that lens of intersectionality we discussed earlier, it's
vital to be responsive to the diverse circumstances of men's lives.
Factors like race, sexuality, class, disability. They all add layers
of oppression or privilege that can really complicate a man's
relationship with masculinity and his access to support.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, that's crucial to remember exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
There's no one size fits all solution here because men's
experiences of these pressures and their pathways to healing and
well being are incredibly varied.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Wow, it's been a really thorough, definitely eye opening.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Deep dive, it really has. We've covered a lot of ground,
haven't We pulled from a lot of different perspectives we have.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
So bringing it all back, trying to synthesize for you,
our listener, this is sidle pressures, those outdated expectations put
on men. They are absolutely real and they are genuinely harmful.
We've seen how they lead to emotional bottling, chronic stress,
serious mental health issues. We've seen clearly that expressing emotion,
allowing yourself to be vulnerable, it isn't some sign of weakness.
(32:19):
It is a fundamental part of being human. It's crucial
for well being, and we see that powerfully demonstrated by
artists like Dax, who are willing to put their truth,
their vulnerability right out there.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
And we've highlighted how vital it is to actively create
safe spaces around men, to encourage open, supportive communication, and
to provide positive role models who show a different path
is possible.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
And it really bears repeating. Help is available through various resources,
professional channels, community support. Deciding to seek that help is
a profound act of courage and strength, not weakness.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Absolutely, and this entire conversation it's really not about saying
that men's mental health is somehow more important than anyone
else's mental health. Mental health is universal, right, It's about
recognizing that men's mental health is often uniquely stigmatized, frequently overlooked,
and historically underserved, and that is a problem. That's a
problem that desperately needs our collective attention and action.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
So we really encourage you to think about the men
in your life, maybe yourself if you identify as male,
maybe friends, family members, partners, colleagues, and just consider how
these pressures might be showing up. Yeah, what small intentional
steps could you maybe take based on what we've explored today,
maybe to encourage a little more openness, offer support without judgment,
(33:39):
or maybe just remember to ask that second how are
you and really mean it.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
It could genuinely make a difference more than you might think.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Definitely, So, as we wrap up pulling from all these
sources in our whole conversation today, here's maybe something to
sit with, something to ponder if society continues this important
work of challenging and moving away from those rigid, traditional,
often harmful definitions of masculinity, What does it authentically mean
to be a man in today's complex world? And maybe
(34:09):
even more importantly, how can we, all of us, regardless
of gender, contribute to building a future where men's emotional
wellbeing isn't just an afterthought or something whispered about in shame,
but where it's genuinely prioritized, supported and seen as a
core component of strength itself.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
That's a powerful question and one that impacts everyone absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Thanks so much for going on this deep dive with
us today.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah, thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
We'll catch you next time. Who we start
In the quiet place, swish.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Words on food like whispers in the air to go
whoe we start.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to the Culture Hook podcast, your space to learn
and learn and grow, one hug and one episode at
a time.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Okay, let's dive in. It's June, right, and June is
this amazing month. It's kind of buzzing with energy, you know,
celebrating Men's Health Month and Pride Month both happening at
the same time.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Right. That intersection is really interesting, it really is.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And when you look right there at that intersection, you
find a topic that's just it's absolutely crucial, but it's
often pushed into the shadows and honestly pretty misunderstood men's
mental health exactly men's mental health. And you're seeing artists now,
people with real passion, real energy, like Dax for example,
putting this topic right out front right challenging us all
(01:03):
to actually look at it.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
It's true, it does feel like the conversation is maybe
finally starting to get the volume it actually deserves. Our
sources really underscore that this is a deep, complex issue.
It needs more than just a quick.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Glance totally, and that's exactly what we're doing today, this
deep dive We've put it together specifically for you, our listener.
We're going to explore the whole landscape men's mental health,
the intense, sometimes really crushing pressures society piles onto guys,
and importantly, why figuring out how to express emotions instead
of just bottling them up until you feel like you're
(01:39):
going to explode. Why that's just non negotiable for well being.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
And we've pulled together a pretty solid stack of sources
for this.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, articles from places like the Mayo Clinic, PubMed research papers,
and some really raw, insightful personal reflections reactions from people
engaging with this exact topic. Yeah, it's a powerful mix.
Let's see it from a bunch of different angles.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Okay, good. So our mission here is to really dig
into these sources, pull out the absolute most important stuff.
You want to understand the why why are men facing
these struggles? We want to challenge some seriously outdated ideas
about what it supposedly means to be manly.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, those need challenging for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
And hammer home why finding safe ways to be vulnerable
isn't just okay, it's actually one of the strongest things
you can possibly do.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
That's such a key point strength and vulnerability exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So get ready because we're going to tackle this head on.
Let's unpack this, let's do all right, So let's start
with the basics. Why do we need to talk about
men's mental health right now? Like, what makes this moment,
this timing so critical?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, picking up on your point about June being men's
health month, yeah, yeah, the calendar gives us a timely hook, right,
but the reasons go way way deeper than just the month.
Our sources, like the ones from Mayo Clinic and Research
and PubMed, they make it really clear. While mental health
effects everyone, sure, men face these specific challenges that are
(03:06):
often just overlooked.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And these aren't small challenges either. The data is frankly,
it's alarming. For instance, there's information highlighted by I think
it was the Feminist Majority Foundation source. It states that
men die by suicide at a rate four times higher
than women, four times four times higher. That number just
it just stops you in your tracks.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
You know, it's a devastating statistic, it really is. And
what makes it even more urgent as that the same
source points out, is the stark contrast. Despite this dramatically
higher risk of death by suicide men are considerably less
likely to seek any form of professional treatment compared to
women anyway. Wow, it's dangerous paradox, right, the group with
(03:47):
the highest risk is actually the least likely to go get.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Help, exactly, higher risk, lower help seeking. That gap just
screams for attention. It's a huge red flag. Massive and
bringing back the gym theme again. It's also the Domestics
Shelters dot Org source adds another really crucial layer here.
It highlights that male survivors of domestic violence, and this
includes gay and bisexual men, they face these unique, really
(04:13):
significant barriers when they try to reach out for help.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
That's such an essential point about intersectionality. The Feminist Majority
Foundation source touches on this too.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Your sectionality.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, it's not just about being a man, it's about
which man. What are the intersecting identities. So for gay
or bisexual male survivors, like the source mentions, there might
be fears about being outed right, and that fear could
be used as a control tactic by an abuser or tragically,
if HIV status is involved, that could also be weaponized.
(04:42):
It just makes the thought of seeking help feel incredibly,
incredibly risky. The domestic shelters dot Org source really details
how these specific vulnerabilities can make reaching out even more terrifying.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
So, okay, you've got this general widespread reluctance men often
have towards seeking help. And then layered on top of
that are these unique intense barriers for specific groups of men.
And all of this is happening against the backdrop of
an alarmingly high suicide way. This isn't just some niche
mental health topic. It feels more like a major public
(05:16):
health crisis that's kind of hiding in plain sight.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
That's a good way to put it. Yeah, and the
sources consistently point to a core culprit driving this reluctance,
which is stigma.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Ah, stigma always comes back to stigma, doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
It's a huge piece of this puzzle. The plubmed treatment
source Mayo Clinic, and there's a specific pup meed source
just on stigma. They all show this pattern. Men are
less likely to come forward, less likely to admit their struggling,
sometimes even less likely to acknowledge they even need help.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Right, And that pupmed stigma source, it really breaks down
what stigma is in this context, because it's not just
one simple thing, is it.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
No, not at all. It describes social stigma first, So
that's the negative attitudes and beliefs coming from other people,
the idea that mental illness is a sign of weakness,
maybe a.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Character flaw, and that leads to discrimination.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, it can lead to discrimination. People may be avoiding
you if they know you're struggling, then separate but related
their self stigma. Okay, that's what happens. When you internalize
all that negativity from society, you start to feel shame
or embarrassment, maybe guilt about your own mental health.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Challenge to turn it inward on yourself exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
And then there's cultural stigma. This is about how mental
health is viewed and interpreted within specific cultural contexts where
it might be deeply taboo just not something you talk
about ever.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And that source gaves such a powerful, really specific example
of cultural stigma, didn't it within the black community?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
It did, noting that mental health can sometimes be seen
as taboo or a sign of weakness. There and it
connects us back to a really painful.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
History, the Tuskegee Experiment.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, things like the Tuskegee Experiment which created this lasting,
understandable distrust of the healthcare system for generations that history
makes seeking help from the official channels incredibly difficult for some.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Understanding those historical and cultural roots is just it's absolutely vital,
isn't it. It explains why the stigma isn't just some
surface level issue for many communities.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
It runs deep, so deep, And this reluctance, this pervasive stigma,
it connects directly back to those traditional male roles and
expectations we mentioned earlier. Those ideas are constantly reinforced all
around us. You see that connection throughout the male clinic source,
the PubMed treatment source, and that Higgins Wellness source too.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Ah. Yes, the weight of expectation. This is where we
get into what the source is kind of collectively call
society's man box. Yeah, it's a pretty vivid way to
put it, isn't it like being crammed into this pre defined,
rigid shape.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It really is. And the Higgins Wellness Source provides this
really telling list of what supposedly falls inside this man box.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Like what's on the list?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Okay, So it includes expectations like being the sole provider
that pressure, raising kids with this kind of iron fist discipline,
the idea that you should rarely if ever show emotions,
I'm listlaid. Maybe it's anger angers off of the exception.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Right, anger gets a pass. Sometimes. What else?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
The pressure to constantly be physically fit, only enjoying quote
unquote manly hobbies, you know, sports, fixing cars, that kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Avoiding doctors until you're practically at death's store.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
That's on the list. Having specific ways you're supposed to
dress or wear your hair, always having to take charge,
needing to be physically attractive to women, having a high
sex drive, and always being ready to fight back if
you feel challenged.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Ohow, just listening to that list is exhausting.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
It is. And the Illustrate magazine review we looked at
calls these out specifically as harmful societal expectations.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Harmful, Yeah, that seems accurate.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
What's kind of crazy, as the sources highlight, is how
incredibly early these expectations start. The Higgins Wellness source mentioned
something as simple as like dressing male infants only in blue,
or the toys or the types of toys boys are
typically given, trucks, soldiers, action figures. It's setting these expectations
before a kid even has a chance to figure out
(09:11):
who they are. As an individual.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It really is like being handed a script at birth.
Here's your box. Fit into it, don't deviate pretty much.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And one of the most damaging things that gets crammed
into that box, according to the Higgins Wellness source, is
the angry man stereotype.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
The angry man okay, tell me about that?
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Well, this stereotype is fascinating and frankly pretty sad when
you break it down. It captures the really limited emotional
range that men are often allowed to show.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
So it's either anger or nothing kind of.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
The source describes two extremes this leads to. On one hand,
you might get explosive, damaging, outward anger, lashing out, okay.
On the other hand, you get overregulated, internalized anger. That's
where all that frustration, all that emotion gets pushed inward,
just buried deep.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Down, and that internalized stuff that's where the bottling up happens,
right exactly. The YouTube reaction video we looked at, the
one reacting to Dax's music, made such a powerful point
about this.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah what did they say?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
They pointed out how expressing emotions anything other than maybe
anger or just being completely stoic, is often seen as weak,
and men get belittled or mocked for it.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
That connection is totally spot on. The reactor even quoted
Dakas Lyrics saying something like when we do explain express
we lose the upper hand.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Wow, lose the upper hand.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
That line perfectly captures the perceived cost of vulnerability, doesn't
it The idea that showing feeling is somehow giving up
power or control or status.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, like it makes you less of a man in
some way. And what happens when you constantly stuff everything
down like that YouTube reaction noted, It leads to this
frustration and stress that just it just eats away at
you from the inside like.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
A slow burn. Yeah, and the sources show that's not
just a feeling. It has real, actual physical consequences slate
like what the Higgins Wellness in Male clinic sources detail
how this internalized stress can manifest physically. We're talking about
things like hair loss, unexplained weight gain, skin rashes, chronic.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Fatigue, even teeth grinding.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Even grinding your teeth at night. Higgins Wellness source adds
that sometimes doctors might run all sorts of tests and
not find a clear physical cause. Why because the root
problem is this enormous unexpressed emotional burden.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Wow, so it's not just in your head. Your body
literally starts breaking down under the pressure of holding it
all in. That's intense, it really is.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, And speaking of harmful molds or stereotypes, the sources
also talk about that online narrative of the alpha male.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Ugh, yeah, the alpha male. What do the sources say
about that?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yes? The Higgins Wellness source describes this concept that's unfortunately
gained a lot of traction online, this idea of the
abusive alpha male. Abusive, Yeah, that's the term used. The
description is pretty specific, supposedly physically and mentally at their peak,
feeling nothing but rage, apparently openly to despising women and feminism,
objectifying women constantly how's like a charmer? Right? Also being
(12:06):
the smart, confident leader and seeing any man who isn't
constantly asserting dominance or God forbid, shows any weakness as
inferior less than.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So basically a caricature of toxic masculinity.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Pretty much, and the critique from the source is crucial here.
It points out that this narrative actively warps psychological health.
It preys on men's deepest insecurities. Ohso by making any
guy who doesn't fit this aggressive, emotionally void, frankly impossible
mold feel like a failure, like they're doing being a
man wrong.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
And that, according to the source, directly feeds into things
like misogynistic attitudes, homophobia, general rage.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And critically avoiding therapy or seeking any kind of help
because in that alpha worldview, asking for help is seen
as the ultimate sign of weakness.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
So it's this genuinely toxic loop. It traps men in
unhealthy behaviors and a really damaging emotional states. It's the
man box, but like hyper masculinized and weaponized.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
That's a really good way to put it. Weaponized, it
really is.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
And this, I think is where art can be incredibly powerful.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Do you mean well?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Art can cut through all that noise, all that pressure.
It can show the reality, the vulnerability, make you feel
less alone in it, which brings us to Dax's work,
specifically to Be a Man, which is mentioned in our
sources right.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
The Illustrated magazine review called his album both powerful and introspective,
said it shines a light on men's emotional struggles and
those societal expectations we've been talking about.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, and that YouTube reaction we watched the one focusing
specifically on his song from a man's perspective. It really
captured how deeply that song resonated with people.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
He seemed genuinely moved totally.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
The reactors were talking about the raw emotion and the passion,
and honestly, listening to the album myself, I completely got it.
You can just feel how much heart and soul he
poured into those tracks. That raw emotion is undeniable. It's
powerful stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
It clearly struck a Yeah, so let's maybe dig into
some of those specific lyrical themes from a man's perspective
that the reactors highlighted because they connect directly back to
everything we've been discussing.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Okay, yeah, let's do that. The reactors zeroed in on
the very beginning of the song. There's a disagreement, right,
and the woman in the song calls him an absolute
for showing emotion.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, And the reactor's immediate reaction was perfect. They said
his feelings were not validated, and that calling a man
that is quite a degrading thing.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
That opening alone is just it's a perfect painful example
of the stigma male vulnerability faces, even from someone who's
supposed to be close to you. Yeah right, It immediately
shuts down any expression instantly.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Then the lyrics dive into the really difficult process of
leaving a toxic relationship. The reactor pulled out lines like
had to log off, your passwords changed, you always tried
to run, I wasn't down to chase your trauma made you.
I tried to give you faith, took my kindness and
threw it right back in my face. And that really
poignant line hurt me to leave, but was killing me
(15:07):
to stay.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Those lines, as the reactor pointed out, they just capture
the messy, painful reality of trying to navigate an unhealthy relationship,
the frustration, the effort you put in that isn't reciprocated. Yeah,
and that ultimate, incredibly difficult decision to leave for your
own well being even though it hurts, is relatable pain
for a lot of people, I.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Think for sure. And the vulnerability in his words. The
reactor highlighted lines like days I'd beg and I'd plead
for you to just calm down, And then your words
used to hurt me, they would bring me to my knees,
called me pathetic trash week.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Wow, those lines are incredibly brave to put out there.
He's showing a man openly admitting to emotional pain, to begging,
to being brought to his knees by words, to being
called pathetic trash week. Yeah, these are direct counter examples
to that whole idea that men should be unaffected or stoic. Right,
(15:59):
He's showing the real cost of that kind of verbal abuse.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
You can also really hear the pressure building in the song.
That feeling we talked about, the one that eats away
at you. It comes through in lines like pressure I
was feeling was right up to my neck, and anxiety,
depression that was weighing on my chest, constant allegations, the
blatant disrespect.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
That directly mirrors the physical and emotional toll of internalized
stress that the Higgins Wellness in Mayo clinic sources discussed.
He's putting that feeling into words, that suffocating pressure, the
actual physical weight of anxiety and depression, the constant mental
drain of conflict and disrespect.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
The reactor also picked up on that feeling of being trapped,
the line I was going crazy. I was a shell
of a man, trapped in your cage, lost in your maze,
blinded by love addicted to the pain.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
That's a powerful metaphor, isn't it feeling lost and consumed
by an unhealthy dynamic? Just losing your sense of self
completely within it, totally.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
But the lines that seem to resonate most deeply with
the reactors, and I think they really connect everything we've
discussed so far. Were these pain sounds different when it's
coming from a man we not allowed to feel, be real,
explain express Ah?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, that right there, that's the core message, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
It feels like it? The YouTube reactor explicitly related to this,
saying it captures what the modern man faces. They talked
about feeling belittled for expressing pain, which basically taught them
to just bottle it all up.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
So it's the heart of the issue, that societal suppression,
that active discouragement of male emotional expression.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
It's not just a lyric in a song. It's like
a distillation of the entire problem we're talking about. Another
point the reactor noted was the line we only have
value based on what we can provide.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Hmm yeah, linking back to that societal expectation of men
primarily being the providers exactly It shows how these external
pressures invade even our most intimate relationships, shaping a man's
sense of worth based on his utility, his function, rather
than his inherent value as a human being.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
It's rough, and there's that one brief, almost dark, humorous
line the reactor highlighted too, about blaming actions on a
zodiac sign.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Oh yeah, I remember that.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
The reactor interpreted that as an example of using excuses
to avoid accountability for causing pain, which is, you know,
a communication breakdown, relevant way beyond just this one song.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Definitely, it's a relatable moment of frustration with those relational
dynamics where honest communication and taking responsibility are missing.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
So the real power of Dax's song, according to these
sources and the reactions we saw, is it's sheer relatability.
The YouTube reactor's flat out said they related with every
single thing he said towards the end there.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
That level of connection is incredibly significant. And that TikTok
comment you mentioned earlier, you speak for us who can't. Yeah,
that just shows the impact, doesn't it. His willingness to
express these difficult, vulnerable feelings publicly resonates because so many feel.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
They can't exactly Dax putting his heart and soul out there.
As the reactor put it, it becomes a kind of
model for others. It shows concretely that this kind of
raw emotional expression can be done. It's possible. It's a
public challenge to that ingrained idea that men shouldn't show
emotion or vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
It provides this tangible example of emotional authenticity, and maybe
that gives other men permission, or at least the idea
that they too can explore and express their own feelings
without it being a catastrophe.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
So okay, if that's the problem, bottling up the stigma,
the man box, how do we actually start to change things?
How do we break down that box and build a
world where men genuinely feel safe being themselves emotions at all.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Well, it absolutely starts like our episode focus notes right
with actively challenging and dismantling those harmful norms and expectations
we have to consciously push back against. It doesn't happen passively.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
And the Higgins Wellness source gives us some fantastic counter
narratives to work with, some really positive reframesck what it
offers statements like showing emotions is never weak, just a
full stop, okay. Or every man deserves to show and
receive affection. Caring for children is a strength, not a
weakness or something feminine. No man is weak because of
the way he dresses, talks, or expresses himself. And this
(20:10):
one is crucial. Men should process their feelings instead of
bottling them up.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Those aren't just like feel good phrases, are they? Yeah?
They are direct, powerful antidotes to the poison of the
man box. They offer a completely alternative vision of what
masculinity can look.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Like, A healthier vision, definitely.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
But how do we move from these ideas, these counter narratives,
to actually creating the spaces where vulnerability is genuinely safe.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
That's the hard part, right, And the Jefferson Center source
provides some incredibly practical strategies for how people around men, friends, family, partners,
colleagues can actively help create that safety.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Okay, we like what kind of strategies.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Well, one really powerful way is by dismantling stereotypes through
sharing your own mental health experiences. If you're comfortable, obviously,
the source suggests saying something like, you know what I
was going through that rough patch with my depression? Does
that sound anything like what you might be experiencing.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Is it opening up yourself first?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Exactly? That simple act normalizes the struggle. It makes the
other person feel seen, less alone, less like there's something
wrong with them. It immediately lowers the barrier to them
opening up.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
That makes sense. What else?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Another great idea they suggested is the walk and talk.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Walk and talk.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, Instead of a heavy face to face sit down
that might feel like an interrogation or some big.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Intervention which can be super intimidating.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Totally suggest talking while doing something active they enjoy, like
going for a walk or maybe working on a car
or a project together. It's just less intimidating and less
direct eye contact. Maybe could be part of it. And
as the source points out, walking itself is actually beneficial
helps with stress relief, improves cognition, can decrease symptoms of
depression and anxiety, so bonus benefits.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Okay, walk and talk. I like that practical tip.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
If you know someone is clearly going through something tough,
or you know they have a history with a particular issue,
The source advises acknowledging it directly, but always respectfully and
leave an opening.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Don't demand they talk, so not ignoring it but not
forcing it.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Either, exactly like saying, hey, I know losing your grandparent
has been incredibly difficult, and I just wanted to let
you know I'm here for you if you ever want
to talk about it. No pressure at all.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Right, it shows you see their pain, You're acknowledging it
without demanding they perform vulnerability for you right then and.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
There, precisely. And this next one is deceptively simple, but
it's backed by a really surprising statistic.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Ask twice, Ask twice. What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
If you ask someone, hey, how are you and they
give that default automatic I'm fine or good, don't just
accept it and move on, especially if you suspect they're
not fine. Ask again, like no, really, yeah, something like no, really,
how are you doing? I care about you? Just checking in.
The source highlights that a staggering seventy eight percent of
people say I'm fine even when they are genuinely.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Strugglingly seventy eight percent.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Wow, I know. Often the source says it's because they
don't want to burgin you, or sadly they actually doubt
you're truly interested. They think it's just a social pleasantry.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
So that second more genuine ask it can be the
signal they need that you actually mean it, that it
might be safe to open up just a little exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
That's seventy eight percent stat is wild, isn't It Just
shows how ingrained that reflex is to just tough it out,
put on a brave face. That second question validates your care.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
That's a really useful tip. Ask twice.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
And this whole idea of creating safe spaces, it's echoed
in the Feminist Majority Foundation source too. They emphasize listening
without judgment, providing forms where guys can actually practice a
healthier form of masculinity. The Voice to Men examples mentioned
in that source, like they're facilitated discussion circles perfect examples
of this inaction.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Right. Creating intentional spaces and role models are all so
absolutely critical here, according to both the Higgins Wellness and
Feminist Majority Foundation sources. How So, they both point to
a lack of stable, positive male role models, especially maybe
father figures, as being a significant risk factor for men
who struggle later in life.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
So we need more examples of healthy masculinity.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Out there, we desperately do.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
The Feminist Majority Foundation source talks about how people involved
in organizations like Boys to Men actually model this healthy masculinity,
and the key way they do it is through personal vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Sharing their own stuff, yeah, sharing.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Their own struggles, their own pain, like the example they
gave of Taiamni Goodshield. It also involves constantly evaluating yourself,
looking at your own behavior, what the source describes as
swimming against the current of traditional, often toxic, patriarchal masculinity.
It takes conscious effort, it's not passive, not at all,
(24:53):
and presenting positive examples to younger generations is huge. The
source mentions researcher Madeline Amus how important it is to showcase, say,
male athletes who actively champion gender equality.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Why athletes specifically because kids who look.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Up to those athletes are more likely to actually listen
when those athletes talk about what healthy manhood looks like.
They have influence. Right.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
It's about showing men that authenticity isn't a weakness, It's
actually a path to health and strength. It's not about
being perfect, but about showing the struggle, the effort, the
humanity exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
And this loops back beautifully to relationships, doesn't it, especially
romantic ones and the vital importance of communication.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah. The YouTube reaction to Dax's song brought up that
communication dynamic again. Like the example they used the difference
between hearing you look good versus maybe you look beautiful
in a moment of vulnerability, subtle but meaningful.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Right, and the Reactor highlighted the communication is just fundamentally key.
A lack of communication is such a massive problem in
relationships for everyone, for everyone, And it's not just about
your communication style being right. It's about making a real
effort to understand the other person's perspective. The Reactor's interpretation
of that line from the song something like, if you
think you're doing everything right from her perspective, it might
(26:11):
not be enough. That's spot on. Yeah. It shows the
need for empathy for actually trying to see it from
their side, recognizing that your intention might not match their
experience or their needs.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
That applies universally, doesn't it. Partners, friends, family, even colleagues
at work. Improving men's ability to communicate what's going on
inside them and improving how others receive and interpret that communication,
it seems foundational to better relationships and ultimately better mental health.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Couldn't agree more so?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Okay, beyond these personal interactions and individual actions. What about
broader support systems like professional help.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, that's crucial too. The Mayo Clinic source is very
clear effective treatments for depression and other mental health conditions
absolutely exist. Professional support is a valid, important option to
be encouraged, not seen as a last resort or a failure.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
And the Pubmid Treatment source went into a bit more
detail about the type of professional help. Right tailoring it.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yes, exactly. It emphasizes the need to tailor psychological treatments
specifically to men's unique needs. Therapists need to acknowledge the
profound impact that masculine socialization, that manbox stuff has had
on them.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
So what does tailoring look like in practice, Well, it
might mean therapists adapting their language, maybe using metaphors or
examples that resonate more strongly with certain male experiences or interests.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
It could mean adopting therapeutic styles that feel more collaborative,
more transparent, maybe more action or goal oriented. Some men
find that more engaging than just talking endlessly about feelings
with no clear direction. Okay, and really importantly, it requires clinicians, therapists, doctors,
everyone to be aware of their own biases and beliefs
(27:52):
about gender and masculinity, and to understand that men aren't
a monolith. There are multiple masculinities that exist to be
flexible enough to meet men where they are, respecting their
individual identity.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
That point about multiple masculinity is feels so important. Not
every guy experiences the world or these pressures in the
same way at all, not even close.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
And the sources also list some specific resources that are
designed with men in mind trying to bridge that gap,
like Heads Up Guys, Man Therapy, and NUATP. Those are
mentioned in the Higgins Wellness source any and an am I. Yeah,
the National Alliance on Mental Illness. That's another key resource mentioned,
offering things like a helpline and crucially the nine eighty
(28:33):
eight crisis line for immediate support.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
So there are resources trying to meet men where they are,
using language and approaches that might help overcome some of
those barriers to seeking help we talked about earlier.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
That's the goal, Yeah, making it feel more accessible, less alienating.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Okay, and finally let's touch on something that might initially
sound surprising to some listeners, but which the sources argue
is actually incredibly relevant and beneficial for men's mental health,
which is feminism?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Ah? Yes, Both the Feminist Majority Foundation and the Year
thirteen sources make a really strong case that feminism isn't
just for women, it's for men too, and that men
actually stand to benefit significantly from progress towards gender equality.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Okay, so how does that work? Specifically, how does feminism
benefit men's mental health?
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Well, according to these sources, feminism benefits men by actively
working to dismantle the very patriarchal systems that create these rigid, harmful,
limiting expectations and roles for men in the first place.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Ah okay, So the system that builds the man box,
the patriarchy, is what feminism is fundamentally challenging, and by
breaking down that system, it liberates men from those constraints too.
Is that the idea?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
That's precisely the idea? The Year thirteen source frames feminism
as a tool, like a lens you can use to
examine how gender shapes everyone's lives, men included, and importantly,
it helps build a new, more positive idea of what
it means to be.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
A man, idea that isn't trapped by those old, damaging,
outdated rules exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
And the Feminist Majority Foundation source also includes that powerful
quote from Bell Hook's The Incredible Writer and Activists, What
You Say, emphasizing that men need other men to challenge patriarchy,
can't just be women doing that work, and that male
friendships specifically are absolutely critical places to build the essential
emotional skills that traditional masculinity often stifles or forbids, things
(30:25):
like reciprocity, truly listening to understand, expressing solidarity, showing genuine
care for each other.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Wow. So healthy, emotionally open male friendships are actually kind
of a feminist issue because they help men break free
from those patriarchal constraints on their emotional lives.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
They are deeply interconnected, Yes, and that idea mentioned in
the feminist Majority Foundation source through those boys to men
examples like going on surfing or fishing trips together. Yeah,
the idea of centering joy and community through shared activities.
That's another way to cultivate those positive relational skills. It
happens in environments that feel less like a pressure cooker
(31:04):
a therapy session and more natural, more organic.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
So it's not always about sitting down for a heavy,
intense talk. Sometimes it's just about building connection and trust
through shared experience, shared enjoyment.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Absolutely, and as the Feminist Majority Foundation source importantly notes,
looking through that lens of intersectionality we discussed earlier, it's
vital to be responsive to the diverse circumstances of men's lives.
Factors like race, sexuality, class, disability. They all add layers
of oppression or privilege that can really complicate a man's
relationship with masculinity and his access to support.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, that's crucial to remember exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
There's no one size fits all solution here because men's
experiences of these pressures and their pathways to healing and
well being are incredibly varied.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Wow, it's been a really thorough, definitely eye opening.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Deep dive, it really has. We've covered a lot of ground,
haven't We pulled from a lot of different perspectives we have.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
So bringing it all back, trying to synthesize for you,
our listener, this is sidle pressures, those outdated expectations put
on men. They are absolutely real and they are genuinely harmful.
We've seen how they lead to emotional bottling, chronic stress,
serious mental health issues. We've seen clearly that expressing emotion,
allowing yourself to be vulnerable, it isn't some sign of weakness.
(32:19):
It is a fundamental part of being human. It's crucial
for well being, and we see that powerfully demonstrated by
artists like Dax, who are willing to put their truth,
their vulnerability right out there.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
And we've highlighted how vital it is to actively create
safe spaces around men, to encourage open, supportive communication, and
to provide positive role models who show a different path
is possible.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
And it really bears repeating. Help is available through various resources,
professional channels, community support. Deciding to seek that help is
a profound act of courage and strength, not weakness.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Absolutely, and this entire conversation it's really not about saying
that men's mental health is somehow more important than anyone
else's mental health. Mental health is universal, right, It's about
recognizing that men's mental health is often uniquely stigmatized, frequently overlooked,
and historically underserved, and that is a problem. That's a
problem that desperately needs our collective attention and action.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
So we really encourage you to think about the men
in your life, maybe yourself if you identify as male,
maybe friends, family members, partners, colleagues, and just consider how
these pressures might be showing up. Yeah, what small intentional
steps could you maybe take based on what we've explored today,
maybe to encourage a little more openness, offer support without judgment,
(33:39):
or maybe just remember to ask that second how are
you and really mean it.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
It could genuinely make a difference more than you might think.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Definitely, So, as we wrap up pulling from all these
sources in our whole conversation today, here's maybe something to
sit with, something to ponder if society continues this important
work of challenging and moving away from those rigid, traditional,
often harmful definitions of masculinity, What does it authentically mean
to be a man in today's complex world? And maybe
(34:09):
even more importantly, how can we, all of us, regardless
of gender, contribute to building a future where men's emotional
wellbeing isn't just an afterthought or something whispered about in shame,
but where it's genuinely prioritized, supported and seen as a
core component of strength itself.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
That's a powerful question and one that impacts everyone absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Thanks so much for going on this deep dive with
us today.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah, thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
We'll catch you next time. Who we start
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