July 25, 2025 • 28 mins
In this surprising and deeply human episode of The Culture Hug Podcast, we take a nose-first dive into the world of body odor—and discover it’s about so much more than hygiene. Through personal stories and science-backed insights, we explore how poverty, metabolism, and even genetics shape the way we smell—and how we’re judged for it. From the misunderstood science of "old people smell" to cultural taboos around scent, we unpack how aging, microbiomes, and deodorant ingredients all play a role. Did you know some populations naturally produce less body odor? Or that showering might not solve the problem for everyone? We break stigma with empathy, explore fascinating research, and challenge the assumptions we make about each other—one whiff at a time.
Sources:
• Mitro, S., Gordon, A. R., Olsson, M. J., & Lundström, J. N. (2012). The smell of age: Perception and discrimination of body odors of different ages. PLoS ONE, 7(5), e38110. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0038110
• Mogilnicka, I., Bogucki, P., & Ufnal, M. (2020). Microbiota and malodor—Etiology and management. International Journal of Molecular Sciences, 21(8), 2886. https://doi.org/10.3390/ijms21082886
• National Cancer Institute. (n.d.). Antiperspirants/deodorants and breast cancer.
• National Museum of American History. (n.d.). Alleviating body odors. Smithsonian Institution.
• Tanoko, M. (2024, June 10). Armpit rash? It might be contact dermatitis from deodorant. National Eczema Association.
• Tiara Blue. (2017, March 9). ‘My family was too poor to afford deodorant’. NonDoc.
• University of Bristol. (2013, January 17). Deodorants: Do we really need them? ScienceDaily. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130117084928.htm
• World Population Review. (n.d.). Deodorant use by country 2025.
• AgingCare.com. (n.d.). The truth about “old people smell”. AgingCare.com.
• Dean, L. (2013, March 25). Roses, noses, and underarms: how one variation in our DNA influences underarm perspiration (and ear wax). National Center for Biotechnology Information (US).
• Debczak, M. (n.d.). 8 ways people made themselves smell good before deodorant. Mental Floss.
• Dennis, S. (2017, October 8). Cultural deodorant differences. Truly's Natural Products.
• Kassel, G. (2024, February 20). Menopause and body odor: Causes, treatment, prevention. Healthline.
• Kuo, K. (2019, July 8). Why Chinese people don’t need deodorant. The China Project. https://thechinaproject.com/2019/07/08/kuora-why-chinese-people-dont-need-deodorant/
• Luntz, S. (n.d.). Old people’s smell is a real thing, but it’s not everyone’s destiny. IFLScience.
Sources:
• Mitro, S., Gordon, A. R., Olsson, M. J., & Lundström, J. N. (2012). The smell of age: Perception and discrimination of body odors of different ages. PLoS ONE, 7(5), e38110. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0038110
• Mogilnicka, I., Bogucki, P., & Ufnal, M. (2020). Microbiota and malodor—Etiology and management. International Journal of Molecular Sciences, 21(8), 2886. https://doi.org/10.3390/ijms21082886
• National Cancer Institute. (n.d.). Antiperspirants/deodorants and breast cancer.
• National Museum of American History. (n.d.). Alleviating body odors. Smithsonian Institution.
• Tanoko, M. (2024, June 10). Armpit rash? It might be contact dermatitis from deodorant. National Eczema Association.
• Tiara Blue. (2017, March 9). ‘My family was too poor to afford deodorant’. NonDoc.
• University of Bristol. (2013, January 17). Deodorants: Do we really need them? ScienceDaily. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130117084928.htm
• World Population Review. (n.d.). Deodorant use by country 2025.
• AgingCare.com. (n.d.). The truth about “old people smell”. AgingCare.com.
• Dean, L. (2013, March 25). Roses, noses, and underarms: how one variation in our DNA influences underarm perspiration (and ear wax). National Center for Biotechnology Information (US).
• Debczak, M. (n.d.). 8 ways people made themselves smell good before deodorant. Mental Floss.
• Dennis, S. (2017, October 8). Cultural deodorant differences. Truly's Natural Products.
• Kassel, G. (2024, February 20). Menopause and body odor: Causes, treatment, prevention. Healthline.
• Kuo, K. (2019, July 8). Why Chinese people don’t need deodorant. The China Project. https://thechinaproject.com/2019/07/08/kuora-why-chinese-people-dont-need-deodorant/
• Luntz, S. (n.d.). Old people’s smell is a real thing, but it’s not everyone’s destiny. IFLScience.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
In the Quiet Place, wish words on food like whispers
in the.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
To gell Whoe. We start.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Welcome to the culture Hook podcast, your space to learn
and learn and grow, one hug and one episode at
a time.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Today we're asking what's the actual story behind body odor,
hygiene and culture.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's a huge topic. Touches on biology, culture, economics, you.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Name it, absolutely and our mission today really is to
get past those initial assumptions, the sort of unexamined feelings.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Right, We've pulled together a lot of different sources. We've
got personal stories, some really powerful ones. We've got the
hard science the chemistry of smell, and we've got global
data too, which really challenges some common ideas.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
The goal is in judgment, it's understanding, understanding the science,
the cultural differences, even the you know, so the tough
economic realities that shape how we perceive smell and how
we experience it ourselves.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
And doing it with empathy.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
That's key, It is absolutely crucial. We have to say
this upfront. This is a delicate topic. Bodyodor is well,
it's complicated, it's often involuntary, it's deeply personal.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
It can be tied to things completely outside someone's control.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Exactly So as we talk through this, empathy and dignity
are like our guiding stars here. Everyone deserves respect, deserves understanding,
no matter how they smell.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Okay, So let's unpack this, Let's get to what's really
going on beneath the surface of scent.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Well, the first thing that jumps out when you start
looking into this is just how different the perception of
bodyodor can be around the world. Seriously, what one culture
thinks is totally normal, natural, maybe even just fine.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Another culture might find really strange or even like offensive.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Precisely, and it's not just about personal taste, like preferring
one food over another. It runs much deeper. Also, it's
shaped by well everything our evolutionary history, the way we
were raised, our environment, even just what resources are available.
So this cultural lens, it's the first big layer we
need to understand, especially when we think about the US perspective, which,
let's be honest, tends to be pretty highly sensitized to
(02:19):
perceived body odor compared to some other places.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
And sometimes that perception, that idea of a bad smell,
it has absolutely nothing to do with personal care, does it.
It can actually point to much bigger societal problems.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
That's a really important point, and our first source really
drives us home. It's a very powerful, very moving personal
story from Tierra Blue, writer from Oklahoma, Ah.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yes, her story, it really pulls back the curtain on
what poverty actually feels like day to day and how
it impacts basic hygiene, basic dignity.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
It really does. She talks about being eleven years old,
growing up poor, too poor to afford things like deodorant
or even sanitary napkins, things many of us just to
assume we're always there. Yeah, And she describes the feeling,
the humiliation of sweat stains on her shirts, the constant itching,
the discomfort, but more than that, the effect it had
on our mind. She calls it cognitive noise.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Cognitive noise. That phrase just hits so hard, doesn't it.
It perfectly captures that constant nagging, worry.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
It does this relentless internal chatter, you know, worry, anxiety,
self consciousness. It just eats up your mental energy, makes
it incredibly hard to focus on anything else, like schoolwork.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Yeah. I can only imagine trying to learn algebra or
understand Poe. I mean, your brain is just buzzing with thoughts. Like,
is my scalp itchy? Can the person next to me
smell me?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Are these stains showing exactly?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It's not just a quick distraction, it's this constant, draining
hum in the background. It actively gets in the way
of learning, of engaging, of just being there.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
It becomes this invisible barrier, robbing you of focus, impacting
your potential.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
And her story really highlights something crucial that often gets missed.
Poverty isn't just about lacking food or a roof over
your head. It's about lacking the basic tools for dignity,
for feeling like you can participate fully, for keeping yourself
esteem intact. She mentions how as a kid she kind
of told herself, Okay, when I grow up, things will
be different. Kids won't have to deal with this. We'll
(04:17):
have more wealth, better.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Technology, that hopeful kid perspective, right, But.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Then as an adult she realized, well, that wasn't the
reality at all.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
And that's the heartbreaking part, isn't it that realization that
these problems are still so deeply embedded. She talks about
a conversation with her sister in law, a Manda Right
high school teacher.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, it was around Christmas and Tiara was frustrated she
couldn't get any angels from the school's Angel Tree program,
you know, the charity thing for kids from low income families, right,
And Amanda didn't just laugh it off. She got really
serious and told Tiara the stark truth. What are students needed? Most?
The things they were too ashamed to actually write down
(04:57):
on the official forms were basic heiden in products.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Oh wow, just wow.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Tierra described it as an existential moment, yes, deeply shameful, painful,
realizing that the same kind of pomony she felt back
in the nineties was still hitting kids the same way
two decades later.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
And Amanda actually listed the things the kids secretly asked for.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
She did, and the list is just it's a punch
to the gut because the things we absolutely take for granted. Shampoo, conditioner, lotion,
lip balm, deodoran, sanitary napkins, toothbrushes, toothpaste, floss, soap, body wash, socks,
even band aids, neosporin hydrate, cortisone cream.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
These aren't luxuries. These are basics for health, for feeling human,
for fitting in exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, and Tiera then talks about being in Walmart years
later consciously buying the cheaper speedstick Deodran so she could
buy more sticks for these students. Yeah, and she just
starts crying, not like happy tears or release, just raw
anger and hurt, asking herself, how, how after twenty one
years is this still happening? How are kids still being
denied these basic things?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
It just shows the enduring impact of poverty, doesn't it,
especially when state budgets fail, when programs for the poor
get cut. That cognitive noise she talked about, it's real.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
It limits potential, It hinders focus, It strips kids of
their dignity. It's this silent cost of poverty that goes
way beyond just dollars.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
And cents, and it's not abstract. It has these deeply
personal costs. There's that other story she tells about her
friend Lauren.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Oh yeah, that one really hits home. It shows both
the shame and the incredible kindness that can exist in
these situations.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
So Lauren her best friend. She gently tells Tiara that
she can smell her, and that the smell was actually
giving Lauren migraines.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Right, And Lauren wasn't being mean, she was just stating
her reality, trying to find a kind way to address it,
which must have been incredibly difficult, immensely and Tiara, desperate
just to feel clean for a day, She's secretly used
Lauren's deodorant from her gem bag. She felt like a criminal,
wiping it down with toilet papers. Lauren wouldn't know. God,
this shame mat But then later that day, Tiara finds
(07:05):
Lauren's deodoran stick, just left quietly in her own locker.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Wow, Lauren just understood.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Completely, saw the struggle, the desperation, and offered help without
a single word of judgment, without adding to the humiliation.
It became their secret, a quiet act of incredible empathy.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
So Tierra Blues story, it just powerfully illustrates how smelling
bad can be a direct result of poverty, of lack
of access, not a lack of wanting to be clean,
not some inherent flaw exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
It forces us to question our quick judgments about body oder.
There's often a much bigger, more complex, sometimes heartbreaking story
behind it.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Okay, so socioeconomic factors undeniably huge, But there's also the biology.
Isn't there the actual.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Science of scent?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
What's happening on a molecular level, How much of it
do we even control.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Right, let's peel back that layer. To really get body odor,
you have to understand sweat and crucially, how that sweat
interacts with the tiny microorganisms living on our skin.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Okay, So we have different types of sweat glands.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
We do two main times, acron and apocrine ecrin.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
First, those are the ones we think of for cooling down, right,
like when you exercise.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Exactly a crine glands are pretty much everywhere on our skin. Palms, soles,
forehead have lots of them. They produce that clear, watery,
salty sweat. Its main job is thermal regulation, cooling us
down when it evaporates andtant Importantly, acron sweat itself is
basically odorless.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Okay, So the apocrine glands must be where the action
is odor wise, that's the key distinction.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, Apocrine glands are concentrated in specific spots armpits, groin
area around the nipples, and unlike acron glands, they only
pick into gear after puberty. That's why body odor becomes
more noticeable in teens. They secrete a different kind of sweat,
thicker oil ear rich in proteins directly into hair follicles. Now,
(08:58):
here's the absolute crucial part. When this abercrine sweat first
comes out, it's also.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Odorless, really odorless too.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
So where does the smell come from.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
It comes from the bacteria living on our skin, specific
types like micrococaci, aerobic diphthoids, Propiona bacteria. They basically feed
on the compounds in that oily epigrine sweat, okay, and
as they break it down, their metabolic byproducts, the bolt
all compounds they release. That's what creates the scent we
recognize as body odor.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
So it's not the sweat itself, it's what the bacteria
do with the sweat. That's a huge shift in understanding
for a lot of people. It's literally a chemical reaction
happening on our skin.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So if our bodies are like these complex chemical factories
and the bacteria are the workers, what are some of
the main smelly compounds they're producing. Because it's not just
sweat odor, right, Our bodies make ulcers of smells.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Oh absolutely, it's far from just sweat. Odors can come
from different places, and the specific chemicals are incredibly diverse.
Each has its own signature smell. Let's start with a
really common one, the mouth potosis or bad breath.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Ah, yes, the dreaded bad breath. We've all been there, unfortunately, right.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
The main culprits are usually volatile sulfur compounds VSS gases
containing sulfur.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Like rotten eggs exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Hydrogen sulfide smells like rotten eggs. Then there's methanethiol that's
more putrid, maybe cabbage like musty, and diamethyl sulfide can
smell like cooked onions or pungent veggies.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
And where do those come from?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Mostly from anaerobic bacteria in the mouth on the tongue,
between teeth, under the gums. They break down protein particles
left behind from food, and diet plays a.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Huge role, like garlic onions.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Definitely garlic onions, spices, even things like wine, cabbage, broccoli, mushrooms, nuts, potatoes,
dried fruits. Anything with sulfides or sulfides can boost VC
production so that.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Tasty garlic bread might come back to haunt you later.
Breath wise, what else can contribute to breath odor?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Well, sometimes you get trimethylamine, which has that distinct rotten
fish smell.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Fish from your breath.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, usually comes from gut bacteria breaking down coaline and
foods like eggs, fish, legumes, some of it can get exhaled.
Then you have indole and scalal smell fecal. They come
from bacteria breaking down trip to fan, mostly in the gut,
but can affect breath too, And some medical conditions have
really specific breath odors, like what acitone. Fruity rotten apple
(11:20):
smell is a big sign of uncontrolled diabetes, specifically diabetic
keto acidosis. An ammonia that urine like smell can indicate
severe liver failure. That's called fetter hepaticus or in stage
kidney disease uremic fetter. Some oral bacteria can make ammonia too.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Wow, that's a whole range of smells just from the
mouth and diet.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Okay, what about urine?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Can that contribute to overall body odor perception?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
For sure? Our bodies absorb things, metabolize them, and then
excrete them. Many compounds end up.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
In urine, like the asparagus thing exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
That's a classic example. You eat asparagus and soon your
urine smells sulfurous because of methanethial and dimethyl sulfide being
ex greeted. Happens really fast, Yeah, it does. And in
more difficult situations like urine area in continence, compounds like
hydrogen sulfide, methanethiol, various aldehydes can create a persistent odor.
It's not about hygiene then, it's about managing biological function.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Okay, And then we get back to sweat and skin
what we usually think of as bo we know, bacteria breakdown,
apricrint sweat. Can you tell us more about the specific
compounds involved there? The armpit smell, the foot smell.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Sure. The medical term for offensive body odor, especially in
those areas armpits, growing feet, is brum hydrosis drosis.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
It happens when those skin bacteria like micrococacie go to
town on the apocrine sweat. They create several volatile molecules.
It's not just one smell. It's like a chemical cocktail.
A cocktail what kind well you get compounds that give
a really sharp, pungent note. Others at a rancid or
cheesy smell, and some are really unique oniony or like
(12:54):
clary sage, or even kind of savory like chicken sulfrey.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Chicken sulfury.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
That's specific.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
It is, the point is it's this complex breakdown by
bacteria that creates the many different facets of what we
call body odor, not just one simple.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Thing, fascinatingly complex. Now, there's also a condition, isn't there
that gets mistaken for bad hygiene, fish odor syndrome.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yes, trimethylaminaria or TMLU. And this is a perfect example
of body odor being metabolic, not about hygiene.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Okay, so what's happening there.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
TMAU is a rare genetic condition people lack a specific
liver enzyme FMO three. Normally, this enzyme breaks down trimethylamine,
that fishy smelling compound made by gut bacteria from certain foods.
But if the enzyme doesn't work, trimethylamine builds up in
the body. It then gets released through sweat urine breath,
and it causes this strong, pervasive, fish like odor. Even
(13:46):
if the person washes.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Constantly so showering more, using more deodorant, it won't fix
the root cause because it's genetic metabolic exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
It highlights why judging based on smell can be so wrong.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Totally drives home the empathy point. Okay, what about the
famous or infamous old person smell? Is that real or
just an unfair stereotype.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Oh, it's definitely real, scientifically documented. But again crucially it
is not because of poor hygiene.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
So what causes it.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
It's caused by a specific chemical called two nonmenal. It's
an aldehyde. It gets produced when omega seven, unsaturated fatty
acids on our skin naturally break down through oxidation oxidation,
and this process just naturally ramps up as we age,
usually starting around forty or so, so older individuals tend
to produce more to non genal.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
And I heard something surprising about it, like it's hard
to wash off.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
That's right. It's not water soluble, so doesn't easily wash
away with just soap and water. It can linger on skin, hair, clothes,
even after washing.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
So it's literally part of your skin chemistry changing with age.
But the perception You mentioned something about the perception being
maybe different from the reality.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yes, this is where it gets really mind bending. Research
actually had young people rate body odors from different age
groups young, middle, aged, old, and surprisingly, the old age
body odors were rated as less intense and less unpleasant
than the odors from younger or middle aged people.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Wait, what less unpleasant? So our perception of it being
bad might just be cultural baggage, preconceived notions.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
It strongly suggests that it points to a context theory.
If you know the smell is from an older person,
maybe you rate it negatively because of ageous biases or expectations. Wow,
the smell itself might be neutral, maybe even milder than others,
but our conditioning color is how we perceive it. It
shows how much perception isn't just raw data.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
That completely flips the script. And you mentioned not everyone
gets it strongly right.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Like most biological things, there's variation. Some older people produce
very little too nonhurinal.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
So fascinating.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
And we should also quickly mention other medical conditions right
that cause specific odors.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yes, absolutely critical to remember things like phenol caate tenurea
a genetic disorder can cause a musty or mousey smell.
Maple syrup urine disease, well, the name says it all.
It causes a sweet maple syrup odor because of problems
metabolizing amino acids. Isovalaric acidemia can cause a sweaty feet smell.
(16:08):
These are just a few examples showing that scent can
be a direct symptom of biology. Completely unrelated to hygiene. Again,
dignity is independent of scent.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
This understanding that odour comes from poverty, genetics, medical issues, aging,
it really leads us to question deodorant itself, doesn't it?
If so much is beyond simple hygiene, is deodorant more
cultural than necessary?
Speaker 1 (16:31):
That's the perfect question to ask. Now, is it something
we truly need biologically or something we've been told we need.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
History must have some clues here. People managed odor before
modern deodorance, right.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Oh, absolutely for millennia. It shows this long standing human
desire to manage scent. But the how and why have
changed dramatically.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
So what did they do back then?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'm guessing it was an old spice.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Definitely not think ancient Egypt. They were famous for beauty rituals,
very sophistic. They actually had deodorant recipes.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Recipes like what things like.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Grinding up ostrich eggs, nuts, tamarisk, even tortoises shell mixed
into a fatty paste for.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
The skin ostrich eggs.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Wow, and get this. Sometimes they'd flavor porridge with incense,
roll it in the little balls and tuck those under
their armpits porge balls.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Okay, I think I prefer my current deodorant.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
That's creative it is.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Or they'd crush carab pods and rub the fragrance onto
their bodies. It was about scent, status, purity, health all
tied together.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
What about the grease and romans more porge balls.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Uh No, they were more into scented olive oil. They'd
steep herbs and flowers in oil and apply it after bathing.
And they bathed a lot, often daily, especially the wealthy
bathhouses were.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Huge socially, but that changed later.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, daily bathing really faded in the Middle Ages. In Europe,
views on nudity change. Plus there were fierce water could
carry disease into the body, so less baiting became the
norm for a long time.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
I've also heard about some pretty weird historical perfume ingredients.
Amber grissy musk.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Very prized, very strange origins. Ambergris is well, it comes
from sperm, whale intestines floats in the ocean. Smells awful
initially apparently like cowdun lovely, but as it ages in
the sea and sun, it develops this amazing sweet, earthy
musky scent, great for making perfumes last longer. And musk
that originally came from a gland near the genitals of
(18:22):
male musk. Dear also smells really strong and urine like
at first, okay, but when dryden diluted it becomes sweet, earthy,
very sensual. Both were incredibly valuable. Thankfully now they're mostly
synthetic due to ethical and conservation reasons.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Good to know.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
So if people had these old methods, when did the
stuff we buy at the store actually appear and become
so everywhere?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
That really kicked off in the late nineteenth early twentieth century,
and it wasn't just a natural shift. It was heavily
driven by the cosmetics industry and advertising ah marketing. Big
time ad campaigns basically told people, especially women at first,
that they're the natural smell was bad, socially unacceptable. They
literally created anxiety to sell products like Mum, the first
(19:06):
commercial deodorant in eighteen eighty eight, and antipersperance like Odorono
around nineteen twelve.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
So they manufactured the need in a way similar to
how we talked about the perception of old person smell
being maybe culturally.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Driven exactly, the marketing actively shaped what society considered unpleasant
or offensive. It was a deliberate cultural engineering project.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
And those early products. They weren't exactly gentle, were they not?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
At all? Early antipersperants often had harsh stuff like carbolic
acid or really high concentrations of aluminium salts could cause
serious skin irritation. Burning effectiveness was key comfort not so much.
Products a much milder now, thankfully.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Given that history and marketing push, What does deodorant use
look like globally today? Who's using the most, who's using
the least.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
It's pretty interesting looking at recent import data. The US
actually imports the most deodorant by value, around three hundred
and twenty min million dollars in twenty twenty two. We're
definitely top consumers.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
They're under in twenty million dollars Brazil.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
A lot of European countries also use a lot per person,
shows a strong cultural norm there.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Okay, so where is deodorant use lowest?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Significantly lower in East Asia? We're talking roughly ninety percent
of people there don't use deodorant. Ninety percent.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
That's huge. Why is it just cultural acceptance?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Well, that's where the genetics come in. It's a massive insight.
Remember that ABCC eleven gene we talked about briefly.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yes, the one linked to less odorous sweat.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Exactly, up to ninety five percent of people in East
Asia have a specific version of this gene, the AA variant,
that literally makes their sweat much less smelly. How does
it do that It affects the apricrine glands, the ones
that make the oily sweat. If you have this AA variant,
your glands secrete far fewer of the precursor molecules that
bacteria need to create strong odors.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
So the bacteria just don't have much to work with.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Precisely, less raw material means less smelly byproduct.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
That is absolutely mind blowing. So for most people in
East Asia, no, I'm not using deodorant. Isn't just cultural preference,
it's biology. They genuinely don't produce much odor that would
need masking.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Right. It fundamentally reframes the whole conversation away from just
social norms to genetics. Our baseline for normal smell isn't
universal at all. It's tied to our genes.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Compare that to somewhere like the UK.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Okay, So in the UK only about two percent of
people have that non odorous gene type. But get this,
about three quarters of those people the ones who genetically
don't need it still use deodorant.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Why just social pressure.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Almost certainly deeply ingrained social norms about hygiene and smelling. Right,
it means literally millions of dollars, maybe fourteen million dollars
a year in the UK are spent on deodorant that's
biologically unnecessary, plus the chemical exposure, potential skin irritation.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Wow, that really makes you wonder, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
How much of this massive global deodorant industry, how much
of our daily ritual is actually needed versus just socially
expected or marketed to us.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
It's a huge question about the power of marketing in
social pressure over biology, and.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
It leads to that distinction. People often get confused about
antipersperant versus deodorant. They're not the same thing, not at all.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
They do different jobs. Antipersperants use aluminium compounds, aluminium chlorohydrate,
things like that. Okay. These compounds basically form a temporary
gel plug in your sweat ducts. They physically block sweat
from reaching the skin surface, so antipersperances stop or reduce wetness.
Deodorance deodorants don't stop sweat. They work on the smell
(22:29):
that you should contain fragrances to mass odor or antimicrobials
to reduce the bacteria that cause the odor in the
first place. Address the smell, not the sweat itself.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
And people worry about the ingredients. Right, Aluminum parabins we
see more natural options.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Now, absolutely big consumer concern there. People worry about aluminum
being absorbed and potentially linked to breast cancer. Carabins, which
are preservatives, have raised concerns because they can mimic estrogen
and estrogen plays a role in breast cancer.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So what's the science say.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Well, first, most products in the US don't even contain
parabinds anymore. They've been phased out largely due to consumer
pressure regarding aluminum and breast cancer. The current scientific consensus,
based on large studies, is that there isn't strong evidence
supporting a direct.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Link, no definitive link proven not currently.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Some smaller studies have shown conflicting results or raise questions,
but major health organizations state there's no established causal link
right now. More research might be needed, but the alarm
bells aren't ringing loudly in the scientific community based on
current data.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Good to have that clarification. Okay, One last piece here. Infrastructure,
like just having access to showers, How does that fit
into the picture.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
It's a massive factor, often totally overlooked. Access to easy,
regular bathing, clean running water, hot water massively influences cultural
acceptance of body odor.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
In places with modern plumbing, daily showering is often the norm,
the expectation, so it's easier to manage natural odors through washing.
If someone doesn't meet that standard, it might be seen negatively.
But where access is limited, where water is scarce, or
bathing is communal, or hot water isn't readily available, achieving
that same level of daily hygiene is just much harder,
(24:13):
maybe impossible. So in those contexts, body odor might just
be more common, more accepted because it's the reality for everyone.
People might not feel the same pressure to use chemical
products to cover their natural scent, partly at a necessity
and partly because the social norm is different, shaped by
their environment.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
So this whole deep dive from tr blues story to
the biology, the shnetegs, the cultural history, the global use patterns,
it all brings us back to where we started, doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Understanding empathy absolutely, the single biggest takeaway has to be
this body odor isn't always a choice. It's not always
a sign of poor hygiene or not caring. We've seen
it can stem from poverty, lack of access, like trstory
showed so powerfully. It can be genetic like TMAU. It
can be a natural part of aging like tunananol. It
can be link to diet or medical conditions entirely outside
(25:03):
someone's control.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
So when we smell something that seems off to us,
that knee jerk judgment, we have.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
To resist it. The focus has to be understanding empathy.
Always a person's worth, their dignity. It's completely separate from
how they smell.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Especially when you think about people living with involuntary odor
from poverty, genetics, health issues. The challenges must be huge.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Immense, and often incredibly isolating.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Are there ways to manage these odors? Though, if someone
wants or needs to.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yes, Depending on the costs. For TMAU, it might involve
dietary changes, limiting choline rich foods for ammonia smells, maybe
adjusting protein intake guided by a doctor. For bad breath
from oral bacteria. Meticulous dental hygiene is key, brushing, flossing,
tongue cleaning, and.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
For bromydrosis, that strong sweat.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Odor that often involves really strict hygiene, consistent antiperspriant use,
sometimes topical antibacterial agents from a doctor, and really severe
cases that don't respond. There are even surgical options to
deal with the sweat glands, but the goal is always
tailored to the individual finding what helps the most.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
We also really need to acknowledge the psychological side of this.
A living with chronic, uncontrollable odor must take a massive toll.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
It's profound. It can lead to serious anxiety, crushing blows
to self esteem, often severe social withdrawal. Studies show people
with chronic conditions like bad breath might avoid close contact,
struggle professionally, even feel unable to form relationships. It really
highlights why compassion, not judgment or avoidance, is so incredibly vital.
(26:36):
It's a human dignity issue.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
So the next time any of us encounter a smell
that's outside our norm, maybe we pause that instant reaction, Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Pause, Think about all the things we've talked about. Could
it be lack of access, genetics, a health issue, the
natural process of aging. It's almost never just about carelessness and.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Just acknowledging those possibilities, those complexity it.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Fosters so much more the more respect, more understanding, and
how we interact with each other. It moves us beyond simple,
often wrong assumptions, and.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
That wraps up our deep dive into the surprisingly intricate
world of body, odor, hygiene, and perception. We went from
that raw experience of poverty's impact.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Right through the detailed biology of scent, the ancient ways
people managed it, the rise of modern deodorant, and those
fascinating genetic differences around the globe.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
It really shows how something so every day like personal
scent is tangled up with personal struggles, history, science, economics,
social pressures, all of it.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
It's a potent reminder that how we perceive the world
and especially other people, is shaped by so many invisible forces, culture, genes,
socioeconomic realities that often go unsaid.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
So maybe as you go about your day, just take
a moment reflect on your own perceptions of smell. How
much is biology, how much is culture? What unseen stories
or variations might be present?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Exactly Challenging those assumptions, even just in internally, can open
the door to way more empathy, more respect, and maybe
even a deeper connection with the people around us. Transforming
just a smell into a chance for understanding to go.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Here, we start to
In the Quiet Place, wish words on food like whispers
in the.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
To gell Whoe. We start.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Welcome to the culture Hook podcast, your space to learn
and learn and grow, one hug and one episode at
a time.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Today we're asking what's the actual story behind body odor,
hygiene and culture.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's a huge topic. Touches on biology, culture, economics, you.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Name it, absolutely and our mission today really is to
get past those initial assumptions, the sort of unexamined feelings.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Right, We've pulled together a lot of different sources. We've
got personal stories, some really powerful ones. We've got the
hard science the chemistry of smell, and we've got global
data too, which really challenges some common ideas.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
The goal is in judgment, it's understanding, understanding the science,
the cultural differences, even the you know, so the tough
economic realities that shape how we perceive smell and how
we experience it ourselves.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
And doing it with empathy.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
That's key, It is absolutely crucial. We have to say
this upfront. This is a delicate topic. Bodyodor is well,
it's complicated, it's often involuntary, it's deeply personal.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
It can be tied to things completely outside someone's control.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Exactly So as we talk through this, empathy and dignity
are like our guiding stars here. Everyone deserves respect, deserves understanding,
no matter how they smell.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Okay, So let's unpack this, Let's get to what's really
going on beneath the surface of scent.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Well, the first thing that jumps out when you start
looking into this is just how different the perception of
bodyodor can be around the world. Seriously, what one culture
thinks is totally normal, natural, maybe even just fine.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Another culture might find really strange or even like offensive.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Precisely, and it's not just about personal taste, like preferring
one food over another. It runs much deeper. Also, it's
shaped by well everything our evolutionary history, the way we
were raised, our environment, even just what resources are available.
So this cultural lens, it's the first big layer we
need to understand, especially when we think about the US perspective, which,
let's be honest, tends to be pretty highly sensitized to
(02:19):
perceived body odor compared to some other places.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
And sometimes that perception, that idea of a bad smell,
it has absolutely nothing to do with personal care, does it.
It can actually point to much bigger societal problems.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
That's a really important point, and our first source really
drives us home. It's a very powerful, very moving personal
story from Tierra Blue, writer from Oklahoma, Ah.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yes, her story, it really pulls back the curtain on
what poverty actually feels like day to day and how
it impacts basic hygiene, basic dignity.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
It really does. She talks about being eleven years old,
growing up poor, too poor to afford things like deodorant
or even sanitary napkins, things many of us just to
assume we're always there. Yeah, And she describes the feeling,
the humiliation of sweat stains on her shirts, the constant itching,
the discomfort, but more than that, the effect it had
on our mind. She calls it cognitive noise.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Cognitive noise. That phrase just hits so hard, doesn't it.
It perfectly captures that constant nagging, worry.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
It does this relentless internal chatter, you know, worry, anxiety,
self consciousness. It just eats up your mental energy, makes
it incredibly hard to focus on anything else, like schoolwork.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Yeah. I can only imagine trying to learn algebra or
understand Poe. I mean, your brain is just buzzing with thoughts. Like,
is my scalp itchy? Can the person next to me
smell me?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Are these stains showing exactly?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It's not just a quick distraction, it's this constant, draining
hum in the background. It actively gets in the way
of learning, of engaging, of just being there.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
It becomes this invisible barrier, robbing you of focus, impacting
your potential.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
And her story really highlights something crucial that often gets missed.
Poverty isn't just about lacking food or a roof over
your head. It's about lacking the basic tools for dignity,
for feeling like you can participate fully, for keeping yourself
esteem intact. She mentions how as a kid she kind
of told herself, Okay, when I grow up, things will
be different. Kids won't have to deal with this. We'll
(04:17):
have more wealth, better.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Technology, that hopeful kid perspective, right, But.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Then as an adult she realized, well, that wasn't the
reality at all.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
And that's the heartbreaking part, isn't it that realization that
these problems are still so deeply embedded. She talks about
a conversation with her sister in law, a Manda Right
high school teacher.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, it was around Christmas and Tiara was frustrated she
couldn't get any angels from the school's Angel Tree program,
you know, the charity thing for kids from low income families, right,
And Amanda didn't just laugh it off. She got really
serious and told Tiara the stark truth. What are students needed? Most?
The things they were too ashamed to actually write down
(04:57):
on the official forms were basic heiden in products.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Oh wow, just wow.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Tierra described it as an existential moment, yes, deeply shameful, painful,
realizing that the same kind of pomony she felt back
in the nineties was still hitting kids the same way
two decades later.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
And Amanda actually listed the things the kids secretly asked for.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
She did, and the list is just it's a punch
to the gut because the things we absolutely take for granted. Shampoo, conditioner, lotion,
lip balm, deodoran, sanitary napkins, toothbrushes, toothpaste, floss, soap, body wash, socks,
even band aids, neosporin hydrate, cortisone cream.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
These aren't luxuries. These are basics for health, for feeling human,
for fitting in exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, and Tiera then talks about being in Walmart years
later consciously buying the cheaper speedstick Deodran so she could
buy more sticks for these students. Yeah, and she just
starts crying, not like happy tears or release, just raw
anger and hurt, asking herself, how, how after twenty one
years is this still happening? How are kids still being
denied these basic things?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
It just shows the enduring impact of poverty, doesn't it,
especially when state budgets fail, when programs for the poor
get cut. That cognitive noise she talked about, it's real.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
It limits potential, It hinders focus, It strips kids of
their dignity. It's this silent cost of poverty that goes
way beyond just dollars.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
And cents, and it's not abstract. It has these deeply
personal costs. There's that other story she tells about her
friend Lauren.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Oh yeah, that one really hits home. It shows both
the shame and the incredible kindness that can exist in
these situations.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
So Lauren her best friend. She gently tells Tiara that
she can smell her, and that the smell was actually
giving Lauren migraines.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Right, And Lauren wasn't being mean, she was just stating
her reality, trying to find a kind way to address it,
which must have been incredibly difficult, immensely and Tiara, desperate
just to feel clean for a day, She's secretly used
Lauren's deodorant from her gem bag. She felt like a criminal,
wiping it down with toilet papers. Lauren wouldn't know. God,
this shame mat But then later that day, Tiara finds
(07:05):
Lauren's deodoran stick, just left quietly in her own locker.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Wow, Lauren just understood.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Completely, saw the struggle, the desperation, and offered help without
a single word of judgment, without adding to the humiliation.
It became their secret, a quiet act of incredible empathy.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
So Tierra Blues story, it just powerfully illustrates how smelling
bad can be a direct result of poverty, of lack
of access, not a lack of wanting to be clean,
not some inherent flaw exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
It forces us to question our quick judgments about body oder.
There's often a much bigger, more complex, sometimes heartbreaking story
behind it.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Okay, so socioeconomic factors undeniably huge, But there's also the biology.
Isn't there the actual.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Science of scent?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
What's happening on a molecular level, How much of it
do we even control.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Right, let's peel back that layer. To really get body odor,
you have to understand sweat and crucially, how that sweat
interacts with the tiny microorganisms living on our skin.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Okay, So we have different types of sweat glands.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
We do two main times, acron and apocrine ecrin.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
First, those are the ones we think of for cooling down, right,
like when you exercise.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Exactly a crine glands are pretty much everywhere on our skin. Palms, soles,
forehead have lots of them. They produce that clear, watery,
salty sweat. Its main job is thermal regulation, cooling us
down when it evaporates andtant Importantly, acron sweat itself is
basically odorless.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Okay, So the apocrine glands must be where the action
is odor wise, that's the key distinction.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, Apocrine glands are concentrated in specific spots armpits, groin
area around the nipples, and unlike acron glands, they only
pick into gear after puberty. That's why body odor becomes
more noticeable in teens. They secrete a different kind of sweat,
thicker oil ear rich in proteins directly into hair follicles. Now,
(08:58):
here's the absolute crucial part. When this abercrine sweat first
comes out, it's also.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Odorless, really odorless too.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
So where does the smell come from.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
It comes from the bacteria living on our skin, specific
types like micrococaci, aerobic diphthoids, Propiona bacteria. They basically feed
on the compounds in that oily epigrine sweat, okay, and
as they break it down, their metabolic byproducts, the bolt
all compounds they release. That's what creates the scent we
recognize as body odor.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
So it's not the sweat itself, it's what the bacteria
do with the sweat. That's a huge shift in understanding
for a lot of people. It's literally a chemical reaction
happening on our skin.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So if our bodies are like these complex chemical factories
and the bacteria are the workers, what are some of
the main smelly compounds they're producing. Because it's not just
sweat odor, right, Our bodies make ulcers of smells.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Oh absolutely, it's far from just sweat. Odors can come
from different places, and the specific chemicals are incredibly diverse.
Each has its own signature smell. Let's start with a
really common one, the mouth potosis or bad breath.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Ah, yes, the dreaded bad breath. We've all been there, unfortunately, right.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
The main culprits are usually volatile sulfur compounds VSS gases
containing sulfur.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Like rotten eggs exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Hydrogen sulfide smells like rotten eggs. Then there's methanethiol that's
more putrid, maybe cabbage like musty, and diamethyl sulfide can
smell like cooked onions or pungent veggies.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
And where do those come from?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Mostly from anaerobic bacteria in the mouth on the tongue,
between teeth, under the gums. They break down protein particles
left behind from food, and diet plays a.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Huge role, like garlic onions.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Definitely garlic onions, spices, even things like wine, cabbage, broccoli, mushrooms, nuts, potatoes,
dried fruits. Anything with sulfides or sulfides can boost VC
production so that.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Tasty garlic bread might come back to haunt you later.
Breath wise, what else can contribute to breath odor?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Well, sometimes you get trimethylamine, which has that distinct rotten
fish smell.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Fish from your breath.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, usually comes from gut bacteria breaking down coaline and
foods like eggs, fish, legumes, some of it can get exhaled.
Then you have indole and scalal smell fecal. They come
from bacteria breaking down trip to fan, mostly in the gut,
but can affect breath too, And some medical conditions have
really specific breath odors, like what acitone. Fruity rotten apple
(11:20):
smell is a big sign of uncontrolled diabetes, specifically diabetic
keto acidosis. An ammonia that urine like smell can indicate
severe liver failure. That's called fetter hepaticus or in stage
kidney disease uremic fetter. Some oral bacteria can make ammonia too.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Wow, that's a whole range of smells just from the
mouth and diet.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Okay, what about urine?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Can that contribute to overall body odor perception?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
For sure? Our bodies absorb things, metabolize them, and then
excrete them. Many compounds end up.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
In urine, like the asparagus thing exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
That's a classic example. You eat asparagus and soon your
urine smells sulfurous because of methanethial and dimethyl sulfide being
ex greeted. Happens really fast, Yeah, it does. And in
more difficult situations like urine area in continence, compounds like
hydrogen sulfide, methanethiol, various aldehydes can create a persistent odor.
It's not about hygiene then, it's about managing biological function.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Okay, And then we get back to sweat and skin
what we usually think of as bo we know, bacteria breakdown,
apricrint sweat. Can you tell us more about the specific
compounds involved there? The armpit smell, the foot smell.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Sure. The medical term for offensive body odor, especially in
those areas armpits, growing feet, is brum hydrosis drosis.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
It happens when those skin bacteria like micrococacie go to
town on the apocrine sweat. They create several volatile molecules.
It's not just one smell. It's like a chemical cocktail.
A cocktail what kind well you get compounds that give
a really sharp, pungent note. Others at a rancid or
cheesy smell, and some are really unique oniony or like
(12:54):
clary sage, or even kind of savory like chicken sulfrey.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Chicken sulfury.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
That's specific.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
It is, the point is it's this complex breakdown by
bacteria that creates the many different facets of what we
call body odor, not just one simple.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Thing, fascinatingly complex. Now, there's also a condition, isn't there
that gets mistaken for bad hygiene, fish odor syndrome.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yes, trimethylaminaria or TMLU. And this is a perfect example
of body odor being metabolic, not about hygiene.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Okay, so what's happening there.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
TMAU is a rare genetic condition people lack a specific
liver enzyme FMO three. Normally, this enzyme breaks down trimethylamine,
that fishy smelling compound made by gut bacteria from certain foods.
But if the enzyme doesn't work, trimethylamine builds up in
the body. It then gets released through sweat urine breath,
and it causes this strong, pervasive, fish like odor. Even
(13:46):
if the person washes.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Constantly so showering more, using more deodorant, it won't fix
the root cause because it's genetic metabolic exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
It highlights why judging based on smell can be so wrong.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Totally drives home the empathy point. Okay, what about the
famous or infamous old person smell? Is that real or
just an unfair stereotype.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Oh, it's definitely real, scientifically documented. But again crucially it
is not because of poor hygiene.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
So what causes it.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
It's caused by a specific chemical called two nonmenal. It's
an aldehyde. It gets produced when omega seven, unsaturated fatty
acids on our skin naturally break down through oxidation oxidation,
and this process just naturally ramps up as we age,
usually starting around forty or so, so older individuals tend
to produce more to non genal.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
And I heard something surprising about it, like it's hard
to wash off.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
That's right. It's not water soluble, so doesn't easily wash
away with just soap and water. It can linger on skin, hair, clothes,
even after washing.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
So it's literally part of your skin chemistry changing with age.
But the perception You mentioned something about the perception being
maybe different from the reality.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yes, this is where it gets really mind bending. Research
actually had young people rate body odors from different age
groups young, middle, aged, old, and surprisingly, the old age
body odors were rated as less intense and less unpleasant
than the odors from younger or middle aged people.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Wait, what less unpleasant? So our perception of it being
bad might just be cultural baggage, preconceived notions.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
It strongly suggests that it points to a context theory.
If you know the smell is from an older person,
maybe you rate it negatively because of ageous biases or expectations. Wow,
the smell itself might be neutral, maybe even milder than others,
but our conditioning color is how we perceive it. It
shows how much perception isn't just raw data.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
That completely flips the script. And you mentioned not everyone
gets it strongly right.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Like most biological things, there's variation. Some older people produce
very little too nonhurinal.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
So fascinating.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
And we should also quickly mention other medical conditions right
that cause specific odors.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yes, absolutely critical to remember things like phenol caate tenurea
a genetic disorder can cause a musty or mousey smell.
Maple syrup urine disease, well, the name says it all.
It causes a sweet maple syrup odor because of problems
metabolizing amino acids. Isovalaric acidemia can cause a sweaty feet smell.
(16:08):
These are just a few examples showing that scent can
be a direct symptom of biology. Completely unrelated to hygiene. Again,
dignity is independent of scent.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
This understanding that odour comes from poverty, genetics, medical issues, aging,
it really leads us to question deodorant itself, doesn't it?
If so much is beyond simple hygiene, is deodorant more
cultural than necessary?
Speaker 1 (16:31):
That's the perfect question to ask. Now, is it something
we truly need biologically or something we've been told we need.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
History must have some clues here. People managed odor before
modern deodorance, right.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Oh, absolutely for millennia. It shows this long standing human
desire to manage scent. But the how and why have
changed dramatically.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
So what did they do back then?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'm guessing it was an old spice.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Definitely not think ancient Egypt. They were famous for beauty rituals,
very sophistic. They actually had deodorant recipes.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Recipes like what things like.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Grinding up ostrich eggs, nuts, tamarisk, even tortoises shell mixed
into a fatty paste for.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
The skin ostrich eggs.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Wow, and get this. Sometimes they'd flavor porridge with incense,
roll it in the little balls and tuck those under
their armpits porge balls.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Okay, I think I prefer my current deodorant.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
That's creative it is.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Or they'd crush carab pods and rub the fragrance onto
their bodies. It was about scent, status, purity, health all
tied together.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
What about the grease and romans more porge balls.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Uh No, they were more into scented olive oil. They'd
steep herbs and flowers in oil and apply it after bathing.
And they bathed a lot, often daily, especially the wealthy
bathhouses were.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Huge socially, but that changed later.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, daily bathing really faded in the Middle Ages. In Europe,
views on nudity change. Plus there were fierce water could
carry disease into the body, so less baiting became the
norm for a long time.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
I've also heard about some pretty weird historical perfume ingredients.
Amber grissy musk.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Very prized, very strange origins. Ambergris is well, it comes
from sperm, whale intestines floats in the ocean. Smells awful
initially apparently like cowdun lovely, but as it ages in
the sea and sun, it develops this amazing sweet, earthy
musky scent, great for making perfumes last longer. And musk
that originally came from a gland near the genitals of
(18:22):
male musk. Dear also smells really strong and urine like
at first, okay, but when dryden diluted it becomes sweet, earthy,
very sensual. Both were incredibly valuable. Thankfully now they're mostly
synthetic due to ethical and conservation reasons.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Good to know.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
So if people had these old methods, when did the
stuff we buy at the store actually appear and become
so everywhere?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
That really kicked off in the late nineteenth early twentieth century,
and it wasn't just a natural shift. It was heavily
driven by the cosmetics industry and advertising ah marketing. Big
time ad campaigns basically told people, especially women at first,
that they're the natural smell was bad, socially unacceptable. They
literally created anxiety to sell products like Mum, the first
(19:06):
commercial deodorant in eighteen eighty eight, and antipersperance like Odorono
around nineteen twelve.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
So they manufactured the need in a way similar to
how we talked about the perception of old person smell
being maybe culturally.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Driven exactly, the marketing actively shaped what society considered unpleasant
or offensive. It was a deliberate cultural engineering project.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
And those early products. They weren't exactly gentle, were they not?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
At all? Early antipersperants often had harsh stuff like carbolic
acid or really high concentrations of aluminium salts could cause
serious skin irritation. Burning effectiveness was key comfort not so much.
Products a much milder now, thankfully.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Given that history and marketing push, What does deodorant use
look like globally today? Who's using the most, who's using
the least.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
It's pretty interesting looking at recent import data. The US
actually imports the most deodorant by value, around three hundred
and twenty min million dollars in twenty twenty two. We're
definitely top consumers.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
They're under in twenty million dollars Brazil.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
A lot of European countries also use a lot per person,
shows a strong cultural norm there.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Okay, so where is deodorant use lowest?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Significantly lower in East Asia? We're talking roughly ninety percent
of people there don't use deodorant. Ninety percent.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
That's huge. Why is it just cultural acceptance?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Well, that's where the genetics come in. It's a massive insight.
Remember that ABCC eleven gene we talked about briefly.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yes, the one linked to less odorous sweat.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Exactly, up to ninety five percent of people in East
Asia have a specific version of this gene, the AA variant,
that literally makes their sweat much less smelly. How does
it do that It affects the apricrine glands, the ones
that make the oily sweat. If you have this AA variant,
your glands secrete far fewer of the precursor molecules that
bacteria need to create strong odors.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
So the bacteria just don't have much to work with.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Precisely, less raw material means less smelly byproduct.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
That is absolutely mind blowing. So for most people in
East Asia, no, I'm not using deodorant. Isn't just cultural preference,
it's biology. They genuinely don't produce much odor that would
need masking.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Right. It fundamentally reframes the whole conversation away from just
social norms to genetics. Our baseline for normal smell isn't
universal at all. It's tied to our genes.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Compare that to somewhere like the UK.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Okay, So in the UK only about two percent of
people have that non odorous gene type. But get this,
about three quarters of those people the ones who genetically
don't need it still use deodorant.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Why just social pressure.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Almost certainly deeply ingrained social norms about hygiene and smelling. Right,
it means literally millions of dollars, maybe fourteen million dollars
a year in the UK are spent on deodorant that's
biologically unnecessary, plus the chemical exposure, potential skin irritation.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Wow, that really makes you wonder, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
How much of this massive global deodorant industry, how much
of our daily ritual is actually needed versus just socially
expected or marketed to us.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
It's a huge question about the power of marketing in
social pressure over biology, and.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
It leads to that distinction. People often get confused about
antipersperant versus deodorant. They're not the same thing, not at all.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
They do different jobs. Antipersperants use aluminium compounds, aluminium chlorohydrate,
things like that. Okay. These compounds basically form a temporary
gel plug in your sweat ducts. They physically block sweat
from reaching the skin surface, so antipersperances stop or reduce wetness.
Deodorance deodorants don't stop sweat. They work on the smell
(22:29):
that you should contain fragrances to mass odor or antimicrobials
to reduce the bacteria that cause the odor in the
first place. Address the smell, not the sweat itself.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
And people worry about the ingredients. Right, Aluminum parabins we
see more natural options.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Now, absolutely big consumer concern there. People worry about aluminum
being absorbed and potentially linked to breast cancer. Carabins, which
are preservatives, have raised concerns because they can mimic estrogen
and estrogen plays a role in breast cancer.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So what's the science say.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Well, first, most products in the US don't even contain
parabinds anymore. They've been phased out largely due to consumer
pressure regarding aluminum and breast cancer. The current scientific consensus,
based on large studies, is that there isn't strong evidence
supporting a direct.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Link, no definitive link proven not currently.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Some smaller studies have shown conflicting results or raise questions,
but major health organizations state there's no established causal link
right now. More research might be needed, but the alarm
bells aren't ringing loudly in the scientific community based on
current data.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Good to have that clarification. Okay, One last piece here. Infrastructure,
like just having access to showers, How does that fit
into the picture.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
It's a massive factor, often totally overlooked. Access to easy,
regular bathing, clean running water, hot water massively influences cultural
acceptance of body odor.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
In places with modern plumbing, daily showering is often the norm,
the expectation, so it's easier to manage natural odors through washing.
If someone doesn't meet that standard, it might be seen negatively.
But where access is limited, where water is scarce, or
bathing is communal, or hot water isn't readily available, achieving
that same level of daily hygiene is just much harder,
(24:13):
maybe impossible. So in those contexts, body odor might just
be more common, more accepted because it's the reality for everyone.
People might not feel the same pressure to use chemical
products to cover their natural scent, partly at a necessity
and partly because the social norm is different, shaped by
their environment.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
So this whole deep dive from tr blues story to
the biology, the shnetegs, the cultural history, the global use patterns,
it all brings us back to where we started, doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Understanding empathy absolutely, the single biggest takeaway has to be
this body odor isn't always a choice. It's not always
a sign of poor hygiene or not caring. We've seen
it can stem from poverty, lack of access, like trstory
showed so powerfully. It can be genetic like TMAU. It
can be a natural part of aging like tunananol. It
can be link to diet or medical conditions entirely outside
(25:03):
someone's control.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
So when we smell something that seems off to us,
that knee jerk judgment, we have.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
To resist it. The focus has to be understanding empathy.
Always a person's worth, their dignity. It's completely separate from
how they smell.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Especially when you think about people living with involuntary odor
from poverty, genetics, health issues. The challenges must be huge.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Immense, and often incredibly isolating.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Are there ways to manage these odors? Though, if someone
wants or needs to.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yes, Depending on the costs. For TMAU, it might involve
dietary changes, limiting choline rich foods for ammonia smells, maybe
adjusting protein intake guided by a doctor. For bad breath
from oral bacteria. Meticulous dental hygiene is key, brushing, flossing,
tongue cleaning, and.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
For bromydrosis, that strong sweat.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Odor that often involves really strict hygiene, consistent antiperspriant use,
sometimes topical antibacterial agents from a doctor, and really severe
cases that don't respond. There are even surgical options to
deal with the sweat glands, but the goal is always
tailored to the individual finding what helps the most.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
We also really need to acknowledge the psychological side of this.
A living with chronic, uncontrollable odor must take a massive toll.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
It's profound. It can lead to serious anxiety, crushing blows
to self esteem, often severe social withdrawal. Studies show people
with chronic conditions like bad breath might avoid close contact,
struggle professionally, even feel unable to form relationships. It really
highlights why compassion, not judgment or avoidance, is so incredibly vital.
(26:36):
It's a human dignity issue.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
So the next time any of us encounter a smell
that's outside our norm, maybe we pause that instant reaction, Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Pause, Think about all the things we've talked about. Could
it be lack of access, genetics, a health issue, the
natural process of aging. It's almost never just about carelessness and.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Just acknowledging those possibilities, those complexity it.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Fosters so much more the more respect, more understanding, and
how we interact with each other. It moves us beyond simple,
often wrong assumptions, and.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
That wraps up our deep dive into the surprisingly intricate
world of body, odor, hygiene, and perception. We went from
that raw experience of poverty's impact.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Right through the detailed biology of scent, the ancient ways
people managed it, the rise of modern deodorant, and those
fascinating genetic differences around the globe.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
It really shows how something so every day like personal
scent is tangled up with personal struggles, history, science, economics,
social pressures, all of it.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
It's a potent reminder that how we perceive the world
and especially other people, is shaped by so many invisible forces, culture, genes,
socioeconomic realities that often go unsaid.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
So maybe as you go about your day, just take
a moment reflect on your own perceptions of smell. How
much is biology, how much is culture? What unseen stories
or variations might be present?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Exactly Challenging those assumptions, even just in internally, can open
the door to way more empathy, more respect, and maybe
even a deeper connection with the people around us. Transforming
just a smell into a chance for understanding to go.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Here, we start to
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.