Bryan Fuller | Ep. 25

This week in The Chamber, we’re joined by the genius behind some of your favorite darkly twisted TV shows, Bryan Fuller! From Hannibal to Pushing Daisies, Bryan’s mind is a playground of chilling beauty and quirky characters. Tune in for a conversation that's as deliciously wild as his TV creations!

Each week, we explore and celebrate the lives that the Star Trek universe has forever changed. From former and future cast and crew members to celebrities, scientists, and astronauts whose personal and professional journeys have been affected by the franchise, we sit down and dive deep with a new friend, laughing and learning from their stories. Sit back, grab a drink, and join our hosts, Dominic Keating and Connor Trinneer, as we get geeky in The D-Con Chamber.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Number one, a piece of business that must be addressed.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
How much do we love day Tab the big Deal?

Speaker 3 (00:10):
We love him that much I can't stretch the screen anymore.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Thank you, Dave.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
As you know, we are blessed to have you as
a friend and as an executive producer of our show.
And it means the world to us that you are
supporting us.

Speaker 4 (00:26):
Like without you, we don't get to do this.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
We don't and you don't get to watch.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
So you love day Tab too, and tell you all
become patron members and Dave can go off and sun
himself on an island somewhere.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
And be done with all this until then.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
We love you, Daytab.

Speaker 4 (00:48):
Thank you, Dave, Thank you, Dave, Thank you Dave. I'm
really excited about this.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, me too. You know, we kind of know him.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
This is mister Brian Fuller, by the way, who got
his start as a writer on Deep Space nine and
The Voyagin He's gone on to do Discovery. Well he
created Discovery, of course, and then something happened which we
will find out. But yeah, I mean he's a he's
an extraordinary talent. One of your favorite shows Pushing Daisies.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
And yeah, I loved it. Loved it so much and
and Hannibal is extraordinary.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
It is.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
I can't wait to hear his his take on the
business and being a creator in town.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, he's a real visionary and a bloody nice bloke too,
and so I'm looking forward to this time.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
So enjoy, enjoy.

Speaker 4 (01:38):
Hey everyone, Connor here, We just want to take a
moment to thank you so very much for tuning in
and being a part of the Decon Chamber family. Your
support keeps us going and we couldn't do this without you.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
And if you love what we do and want to
help us even more, please consider joining us on Patreon.
You'll get exclusive perks, behind the scenes content, and even
of unities to chat with us directly.

Speaker 4 (02:02):
And don't forget to check out are awesome mergh because
who doesn't want to wrap their favorite podcast in style?

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Baby?

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Every little bit helps, I promise you, and we're really
very very grateful for all of you who make this
show possible. So thanks for being there and please enjoy
this episode of the Decon Chamber.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
The show has been gun since your phasers, the fun
you gy for.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Trip Trip Trip trips into.

Speaker 4 (02:43):
The d com with Corridom.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
It's the d Concher.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Ladies and gentlemen, Boys and girls, Trekki's and Trekkers. Welcome
back to another episode of the decon Chamber. I'm your
co host, Dominic Keating, joined as always by my bestie
in La.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Here in America, mister.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
So joining us today is a creative powerhouse whose imagination
has boldly gone where no one has gone before. He's
the denominated Rice Home producer behind some of the most
innovative and visually stunning television of our time. You know
him as the mastermind who brought new life to Star
Trek with Deep Space nine, Voyager and Discovery.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
But that's not all.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
He's the darkly delicious architect of Hannibal, the dreamy genius
behind Pushing Daisies, and the visionary who adapted American gods
for the screen. Ladies and gentlemen, He's the king of
high concept TV, the Sultan of subversive storytelling, and probably
the only person who can make Cannibalism look like fine dining.

(03:53):
Please welcome the one, the only, mister Brian Fuller O.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
Thank you, thank you. I'm all jelled up. I've been
right down ready for the Decon Chamber.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
We're in the five verse. Right now you've got that.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
You're looking well, sorry with condolence is first for I
know you lost your mom just before christ and that's
a big step, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah, you know, it's it's kind of one of those
like the orphan move where you're like, okay, there are
no barriers between you and death now and it's spiritually
exciting as well as you know you mourn. But as
you know, I've written a lot about death and very
comfortable with death and had a lovely farewell with my

(04:38):
mom and all the siblings were there to say goodbye,
so it was it was beautiful and sad as death is,
and uh, you know, one of those those life moments.

Speaker 4 (04:51):
Not to harp on this, but i'd read something that
you had a fair amount of experience with death as
a young person, yes, and kind of influenced what you
wound up doing in the way that you write and
the concepts that you have.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yes, yes, there was. There were a lot of funerals
when I was a kid. It was a very big family,
Like my mom was the youngest of seven or nine,
and we had a lot of cousins, so there was
something about taking kids to funerals that's such a you know,

(05:29):
I know a lot of people are like, oh, my
kid's too young to go to a funeral, and I
was like, are they like it's kind.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Of how well for the first one, I was quite young, four, oh,
very young.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yeah, yeah, and it was you know, everyone is always
so kind to kids and trying to like make it
a not necessarily a happy experience, but one that recognizes
the celebration of life. And I think that was part
of my relationship with being comfortable with death and also

(06:06):
you know, creatively like started my imagination and considering all
the things around death, what happens after, what happens before?
What are all the ways we can right? So, uh,
I'm very comfortable.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Are you are Irish Catholics?

Speaker 4 (06:22):
See?

Speaker 3 (06:22):
Was it?

Speaker 2 (06:23):
Is it wake time?

Speaker 3 (06:24):
Or is it it's German Catholic Catholic? But like they're
like the But my dad, who was Irish, was atheist.
So I grew up in a household were a super
vigilant Catholic mom and an atheist dad who occasionally mocked
my mom for taking all the kids to church every Saturday.
So it was there were a lot of conflicting ideas

(06:46):
in the house that made it us strange. You know
that friction is good, it's it's great for creativity.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Did you all do first communion?

Speaker 3 (06:54):
And oh yeah, like my first communion I was confirmed.
What's your confirmation name?

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Christopher?

Speaker 3 (07:02):
I was Sebastian because of a gay black vampire and
once bitten with Jim Carrey. My mom wouldn't let me
do Damien. So I she was in the stand up
like it was like he's a lepard priest. It's like
it's qualified, hilarious. So I did Sebastian? Did?

Speaker 4 (07:22):
She knows? Because so explain that to me. I didn't
grow up Catholic. I grew up Quaker with and loaded
as well, right with an atheist father and a very
religious mother.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
Was that for you?

Speaker 4 (07:36):
It was well, in the Quaker faith, you don't have
to believe in God, you just have to believe in
a spiritual connection. So it worked, And yeah, it really worked.
I think that growing up Quaker, knowing that my dad
has always been an atheist since I've been alive, and
my mother still, you know, to this day, believing that

(07:59):
you know when she goes, she's going to be with
her parents. It works because the connection isn't between dogma
it's just between you and a thing. A higher being
doesn't even have to be God, it can be anything.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
So was he a little agnostic or is he hardcore
atheist there is nothing? Or was there like, yeah, there
may be a greater power. I might have some sort
of spiritual connections.

Speaker 4 (08:24):
I think as a child, I don't recall he might
have been more agnostic than he is now. But he's
definitely atheist now, I mean as far as I remember
he's he's always been an atheist. But that doesn't change
one's ability to be spiritual, right, And I think that
was the connection that we were all able to make.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Right, which is I like all of the different ideas
because ultimately, I think nobody knows right. So I'm like, hey,
all my ideas on the field. Let's play ball, right right?

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Did you practice anything any sort of spiritual religious practice?

Speaker 4 (09:01):
Now?

Speaker 3 (09:01):
I would probably describe myself as a Satanic Christian, just
because modern Satanism is more Christian than Christianity in terms
of it preaches. It's non theistic, so it's not about
a higher power beyond the energy of the universe and

(09:22):
sort of a pagan thing. But I love the tenets
of Christianity. I think if Christ existed and walked the earth,
what a cool god. Lots of cool things.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
There's a coterie of them that were pretty cool people apparently.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah, yeah, there were were is the key word. And
I have so many friends who are tried and true Christians.
Christian Chenowith is a good friend of mine, and she
walks the walk and talks the talk and is very
true to the Christian ideals. But I would say most

(09:58):
of my close friend group are either Wiccan or Satanists,
and that Satanism for them is about tolerance and the
passionate pursuit of knowledge and philosophy and pleasure. So I

(10:19):
was like maybe a little bit of a saying, it's.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
Also fun to say right essentially follow Satan himself today?

Speaker 3 (10:28):
Or is that just they don't believe Satan exists? Like,
it's just it's almost it's it's sort of teasing Christian
extremists about like and sort of holding up a mirror
and saying, if this is actually more Christian than you are,
you might think about how you practice Christianity. Yeah, it's

(10:50):
like and I and I also it's I love that
it's naughty, you know, And there's there's something about it
that is button pushy, and I think being raised Catholic,
I like all those buttons.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
You know. It was Lewiston.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
He went to Lewis Clarkston Lewis and Clark Lewis and
Clark Lewis Clark State College.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
Is that's it's not particularly religious. It's not a Catholic.

Speaker 4 (11:13):
I almost went there, did you? I almost went there.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
It's a good school.

Speaker 4 (11:16):
It's a great school. Yeah, they have and now it's
actually very hard to get into, is it? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (11:21):
Good? Like my teacher's there. I'm here because of teachers there.
I was taking psychiatry classes and one of my teachers
basically said, what are you doing here? Like you need
to go to film school. Like everything that you talk
about in terms of the study of psychology is through

(11:41):
the lens of fictional narratives. I did a my experimental
psychology course was on if you get more out of
a movie if you see it as a popcorn pleasure
or if you're getting the deeper meanings of the psychology.
And I used Alien, which is probably my favorite movie,

(12:04):
as as the case study. It's like, do you enjoy
it as Jaws and Space?

Speaker 2 (12:10):
You know?

Speaker 3 (12:10):
One by one they're getting picked off or do you
enjoy it because it's a mother figure literally called mother
who betrays her children for a giant penis. Yeah, and
their vagina shaped doors and Philippian tube shaped ships and
all of those things that go into creating a psychological
environment in the horror environment. And my teacher was like,

(12:33):
get out, like go to film school, like you don't
belong here, this is your calling is elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
And you did.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
You went to USC, yes, but you dropped out to
become an office temp.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
I read well, I thought about I.

Speaker 3 (12:47):
I was putting myself through school and I had financial aid,
and the financial aid ran out and USC was really
There were a few embarrassing incidences where I was pulled
out of class because my financial aid was not going through.
So they would come in the middle of the class
and call my name. And their small classes are like

(13:09):
twelve people.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
So that's a bit rough.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
It was humiliating. But I do not donate just to us,
so they might have got more money.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
The secretary of the I was a UCL in London
and read a bit of history and I ran up
quite a bill on my Barkley card. Yeah, back in
the day, you know, and yeah, she came into one
of the tutorials and said, I've got Barkley card. I've
been ignoring them for fucking months, and I've got barclaycard
on the phone, domin it.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
Would you like come take this call?

Speaker 3 (13:46):
But they give credit cards to the students.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, really, I know it's foolish.

Speaker 4 (13:52):
Well, well they know it's foolish to them.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yeah, it's foolish to us.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
You know, in hindsight, back in those days, because of
the Barcley Cary's Bank was so involved in South Africa,
they were giving them into anyone who would take them
because it was so non to be associated with Barclay.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
I was.

Speaker 4 (14:12):
You hadn't, if I read this correctly, you hadn't been
a writer prior to this. You were going for film
production at US.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
I wanted to be a director, yeah, And it took
me a little bit longer to become a director than
I anticipated because I think something about writing and world
building I intrinsically understood was a lot of work and
going to be very difficult. So I was afraid of it.

(14:40):
And I wanted to be a director because directing is
a reactionary, reacting to the words and creating based on
somebody else's instigation of the ideas as opposed to coming
up with the ideas whole cloth, and that terrified me.
But the universe can fired against me, and I became

(15:03):
a writer and.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
You wrote spec script two spec scripts write for Star Trek,
and that's how you got you start. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, I didn't want to be a writer until I
was watching Deep Space nine because I love Next Generation
and watched it religiously. But Deep Space nine hit me differently,
and I think it was really it was a Nana
visitor's character, Kira Nourice on the show where because there

(15:35):
was something about the kind of paramilitary quality of the
characters and the unity of Starfleet that I was like,
this is great, I don't completely relate. And then when
I saw Nanna, and I saw somebody who was pissed

(15:56):
off at the world at the nature of things, that
wasn't afraid of conflict, wasn't afraid of standing up, and
had a certain rebelliousness that I was like, I get her,
I understand her, And that kind of started kicking up
ideas in a way that I hadn't experienced before, and

(16:18):
so I thought like, oh, okay, I can see the structure.
I can see how they're telling stories in a way
that previously I was an audience member and I just
sort of let it wash over me. But she through
the character and her performance really got to me in
a way that I hadn't been accessed before or invited

(16:43):
before to join in in the creative process. Like my
brain didn't quite say like, oh, you can tell these
stories as well.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
Had you been a writer in anyway?

Speaker 2 (16:53):
No, you'd literally never written anything.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
And so did you buy a program and put it
on your computer and go, okay, here we go.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
Well, I did it on word and I just sort
of like you know, tapped tapped over it's like centered
and made it look like.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
It was seen a script.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
I had seen the script, seen a script, so I
just made it look like him. But he didn't have
final draft. I didn't have any of the the proper software.
I just sort of made it work and uh sold
uh what or I had. My first script was a
version of the Darkness and the Light, which was when

(17:34):
Kira's you know, uh members of her terrorists cell were
being knocked off one by one and uh, it didn't
get through. I was rejected and.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
Sarah was was was he was? It was I was
running show, wasn't he?

Speaker 3 (17:51):
I was? And Ira was the first showrunner that I
worked with because after I sold the first story, they
invited me in to break the next story, which was
empoc nor right, And it was so cool. It was
so cool, and that was the the coolest kind of
geek room. Deep Space nine was because everybody loved Star

(18:15):
Trek and everybody loved science fiction, and they were all
nerds and they all knew the specifics. Whereas Voyager was
like it was not frowned upon to be a Star
Trek fan, but it wasn't as embraced as Deep Space
nine was, because it considered like, if you're a fan,

(18:37):
you're not a professional. There was that kind of stigma
on Voyager. And I was definitely a fan first and
we'll always be a fan first.

Speaker 4 (18:46):
Well you had you and then Ron Moore also, who
had literally dropped off a script from a I think
a Paramount tour ye in the office and so you know, yeah, yeah,
these folks had the bona fides of of being fans
and writers.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
Yes, And I think Reneea Shabria also did he come
in from the I did not. I don't know sure,
but maybe, but I used to before nine to eleven,
when you could do this, I would pull up to
the Paramount gates and tell them I was a career
and sneak into the heart building and slide ideas underneath

(19:23):
Brandon Braga's really did you're in a little a nice
little glossy red folder with you know, sheets and a
business card of like every week, I would just submit
twelve ideas and I would like toss him under his door, kidding.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
How long did it take for him to respond to?
Did he?

Speaker 3 (19:43):
I mean this was after I had gotten invited into pitch,
so the name was known a bit.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
There was a familiarity, and well Brian sent another folder
in today.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
And I would like slide in under but I would
be there before everybody else, and.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
So Michael it was scented.

Speaker 3 (20:05):
Spray my or other things. And so I would be
able to walk into Michael Pillar's office when he wasn't
there and there were baseballs on his desk, and I
was like, I could steal this right off. I could
take it. But like Carmiicley, I knew because I was like,
there's all of the star trek Gack in his office

(20:26):
that was within reach, and it felt surreal to be
able to have access in that way. But it was
the open script submission policy that Michael Pillar. You know
who I think is the true father of nineties and
early Star Trek is Michael Pillar, and he's the one

(20:50):
who really brought those philosophical card speeches that you know,
transcended into Deep Space nine. And I personally think the
Deep Space nine Pilot is it is still the best
Star Trek pilot. It's a profound iteration on grief. It

(21:10):
was probably why it resonated with me.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
So it's so good pilot. And a lot of the
pilots aren't.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah they're they're wobbling, they're wobbling.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, I think I have to say that.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
But Voyager was wobbling.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Do you I think you thought Off Pilot was pretty wobbling,
didn't you?

Speaker 3 (21:25):
It was like I did think it was.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
I thought, I think it stands up. Actually, I mean.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
I initially and then I watched it again recently, and
I do think.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
It's stands I think it stands.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
It was it was much more like because.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
I it's Voyages, it's a.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
Voyagers is really super well, it's I think next generation
is probably the weakest.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
And then Voyager, Yeah, uh John Delancy and the GI
outfit smoking.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
On the bridge.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, it's good for all off it's.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
It's it's so camp, it's so camp and the uniforms
are unforgiving. Yeah, but the you know, Enterprise definitely grew
on me. I think, I like, you know, there was
a lot of fun with Enterprise and its development because
I was in my last year's last year Voyager and

(22:16):
there was such secrecy.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
One door closes and often many doors open.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
I wouldn't have sat down and.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
No, right was what was it?

Speaker 3 (22:25):
Was it?

Speaker 2 (22:25):
The adaptation to carry that? Was that your first.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
That that was yes, if you can call it that,
I mean, that was an interesting thing. That was probably
the first thing I did post star track Right that
that was released and not great, A couple of great performances.
Angel Uh was amazing and Britished Clarkson as her mom

(22:50):
was fantastic. It was the very early days of digital.
It looks terrible, like it looked shockedly bad, and I
remember our cinematographer was like, this is going to be great.
I mean with with cables. They had the long cables
attached to the cameras because the digital was so uh,

(23:16):
you know, virtually loodite in its lack of technology. And
I think our cinematographer had a deal with Panasonic, and
so he was like, this is going to look awesome.
It looked like crap. We weren't there.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yet those early days. It looks everything looks so stark.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
And because Enterprise we lived.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
We we we shot film for two years and then
two years on digital.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
It suited our show a lot, right because it was
as dark cramp spaces and that Sony red camera was
was beautiful for that, yes, mate, but put it in
a living room with real people in it and it's dreadful.

Speaker 4 (23:55):
And you you didn't have any contact with Stephen King
during Carrie, did you?

Speaker 2 (23:59):
There was?

Speaker 3 (23:59):
There was a happened like really like none. I sent
him one of the the Kerry prom dresses and it
was covered in ants because of the Caro syrup, and
as like yeah, because I was like, you know, ship

(24:22):
that right from there, like, let's clean it first because
it's covered, don't touch it.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
So they did clean it and they send it to him.
Then I don't. I'm sure he gets so much stuff.
Well I'm sure.

Speaker 4 (24:32):
Well you tell the story of the wax Lions though,
of how they came to be and what you did
with them, of and the DVDs that you sent all
around town.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah. Yeah, we were so desperate to save that show.
So we were. There was the Fox regime that kind
of mishandled Firefly that sort of aired episode four first,
and Firefly struggled, which is a brilliant show and nine episodes.

Speaker 4 (25:03):
It's all they got right in a movie?

Speaker 3 (25:05):
Yeah, yeah, great movie. Yeah, but they it was in that.
I don't know what you would attribute it to, but
it was there was a lack of trust. Like if
I had seen the Firefly pilot first, I would have
been into the show. But when I saw the first episode,
which I discovered as episode four, I didn't watch anymore

(25:26):
because I was like, this just feels like a traditional
TV show. And I was a hardcore Buffy fan. I
was into Joss Whedon's world. And so you know, Firefly
suffered the same fate that Wonderful suffered, which was like

(25:47):
we at least aired in order. I think they switched
the order of a couple of episodes, but the pilot
aired first, and we were we just weren't getting the numbers.
They did know what to do with us. We kind
of had the same plot of Joan of Arcadia. There
were sort of two shows about visionary youths who were

(26:11):
changing the world based on their visions, and we were canceled.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
Network was that was so back in the day when
you really you need numbers straight away, and they were
ruthless back in those early two thousands.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
If you didn't get straight out the gate, they didn't.
They weren't. They weren't in the business of supporting shows.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
No no reason to them, because there was there was
more right behind you that were coming that needed the
real estate. So we made wax lions and made DVDs
of all of the episodes, sent it to everyone in town,
every every network, every cable platform, and with a detailed

(26:57):
this is what season two was going to be. In
Season two is going to be super fun because there
was going to be an immaculate conception storyline with the
lesbian character whose girlfriend just gave her ex boyfriend a
blow job and then she went down on the lesbian character,
and then the lesbian character got pregnant from the sperm

(27:20):
in her saliva, and fox it ten.

Speaker 4 (27:27):
I don't know why they didn't get it.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
It was so clear why they should do it, but
they didn't. So but you know that that was one
of those situations. Yeah, wonderful. And did that with Todd Holland,
great time with him. He was such a a great
partner in that show.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
The Larry Sanders show. He directed tons of didn't he
like he was?

Speaker 3 (27:56):
Yeah, and he does the Monster High shows, which.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
Are how did you amaze him?

Speaker 1 (28:01):
I mean, how do you how do you sort of
collaborate a couple of gays and Hollywood the mafia?

Speaker 3 (28:06):
Like it was like for me, I hadn't worked with
other gay people, Like when I was on Star Trek
there was like the Deep Space nine writers room was
all like straight guys. Well, you know, Brandon's very gay friendly,
like he's like he's super like he's gay adjacent, you know.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
Adjacent, Yeah, Jason adjacent?

Speaker 2 (28:32):
And is he curious?

Speaker 4 (28:34):
I'm not saying a word like not in my experience, you.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Know, there's there's more vulgar jokes that I could tell
if I was, if I if I knew your audience.

Speaker 4 (28:46):
But listen, we already started with Satanism.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
We can go in everyone.

Speaker 3 (28:55):
Satan curious, Satan curious, were we less?

Speaker 4 (29:02):
Yes, Speaking of Pushing Daisy, I was my favorite show
on television. It was on I loved it, and revisiting
it was just such a joy. And I think that
you have such a gift in casting.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
I'm very lucky, very lucky because Lee Pace was in
Wonderfuls and most of it is like working with people
that you love and then they're like, I just want
to work with people that I like.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
How did you find Anna Friel? And what may do?
She was? She getting noticed in America at that time.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
She was the hot girl and in pilot season that year,
so like that, like it was, we were very lucky
to get her. She was coming off of big soap
success in England and had done a few things and

(29:51):
Lee had to audition. We we actually because Lee was like,
I don't know if I want to do TV. I
want to work kind of feature and so he was.
He was hemming and hying, and I.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Was because he was in Wonderfuls, wasn't he Yeah, he
was the.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
Brother in Wonderfuls And so there was a moment when
he was on the fence and we offered it to
Bradley Cooper and Bradley Cooper said yes, interesting, and so
we were going to do Bradley Cooper and then Steve McPherson,
who was in charge of ABC at the time, was like, whoa, whoa,
wo woa, whoa. I need to see an audition, and
Bradley Cooper's agent was like, you just offered it to him.

(30:32):
He's not going to audition. You offered him the role,
So either give him the roller. He's out. And so
then he was out because Steve McPherson was like, Nope,
it's the lead of one of my shows. I need
an audition. Lee finally came around and was like, you know,
I really liked the script. Barry Sonenfeld was a hilarious
collaborator and I learned a lot from him as a director.

(30:56):
And when you see the movie I directed, you'll be like,
that's a Barry sonon Phil Chot and that's a Verry
song and field shot because he just got into my
head the way he tells story and the way he
controls the frame. And so Sean McBride came in charmed
everybody roll as.

Speaker 4 (31:12):
His wasn't anybody at that point?

Speaker 3 (31:15):
Was she she was a theater star Broadways? Yes, yes,
he would not and she had been in a movie
with that Barry had directed r V. I think it
was called So he knew her and that was she
was a darling man my darling. Yeah, well that was

(31:37):
real life. Yes, yes, she was Swoozie. Swoozie had her
career and so that was an offer. Ellen Green came
in and she had to audition and she made it well,
she made me cry and the room because I wrote
this funny scene between these you know, eccentric older women

(32:00):
that was primarily a comedy scene. It was just like
a straight ahead comedy scene where they're talking about, you know,
airplanes falling out of the sky all the time and
why they don't travel, why they don't go outsides. And
then she came in and she gave it such pathos
and gravitas that I started crying because I was like,
I had no idea that I wrote an emotional scene

(32:20):
like I had. That was not my intention, and she just.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
Was not fabulous. When when it's reinvented in that way.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
It's such a gift because you're like and then it's
also a reminder of like you're just a vessel, like
like David Lynch says, rip God bless them. Yeah, you
do not create ideas. You catch them like fish and
if they happened to swim into your net. And so
that was one of those things where I'm like, oh, yeah,
we are just catching these ideas. We do not control them,

(32:51):
We do not create them. We are not creators. We
are we are catchers, the catches.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
You hear that another and sing a songwriters when the
songs come to them, it's you know, yeah they do
and they don't.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
They just come through.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
What would have show like Pushing Days is that got
so well received and nominated and all the rest only
managed two seasons?

Speaker 2 (33:10):
What was that?

Speaker 3 (33:11):
Well, the writers strike right right then?

Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I just got to town pretty much.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
The first season, what like we I think we started
with twelve million, which was everybody's like, that's solid, Like
we wish it were more, but that's a solid, solid
number for yeah, and I think by the end of
the first season we were down to nine million, because
it's you know, it's not for everybody, like it's it's definitely.

Speaker 4 (33:41):
Fantastical realism in a way, which I love. I do too.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
It's a sweet spot. And then the second season, I
think we premiered it eight and then went down to
six by the end of it, and six million viewers
now would be a massive massive.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, threes A three is a big hit now, yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
I mean they're like somebody was like, Girls would get
like three hundred thousand people watching, you know, two hundred
thousand people watching, and we perceive it as this massive hit, right,
But yeah, that's because HBO supports their shows and as
a different approach. So I think that was really you know.

(34:25):
But the funny thing was, right before the strikes, I
was talking to Warner Brothers and I was like, what
about a third season of Pushing Daisy's And they're like,
oh my god, we love it. Let's we love it.
What would you do? And so I wrote a bible
for the third season of Pushing Daisies And then the

(34:46):
strikes happened. And after after the strikes, they were like,
we just don't know what, like what people buy anymore.
We don't.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
So I'm always that strike. It was Caudel card Along one, wasn't.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
It May two?

Speaker 4 (35:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (35:03):
It was?

Speaker 2 (35:04):
It was long enough.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
Pretty devastating, and uh so I'm still hoping that when
people kind of figure out what they can buy or
sell with new stories that somehow, you know, I also
think that we're experiencing fatigue of going back to certain

(35:27):
wells and stories, so that may be a hurdle for us.
But the entire cast wanted to come back. Uh and
no one knew the ship because I called everybody, and
I even called a lot of the guest stars that
I wanted to come back, you know, Molly Shannon was.
I had beautiful conversations with Paul Rubins about coming back,

(35:52):
and it was interesting because I called him and I
was like, would you be interested did and reprising Oscar
Vibinius if we did a third season. He was like, absolutely,
I would absolutely come back. It's so funny that you
called because I'm recently cancer free and it's such an

(36:15):
amazing thing that you're calling at this time and we're
talking about this. And I was like, well, congratulations for
being cancer free. That's amazing, And this is the plan,
this is the story. I pitched it all out to
him and what his role was going to be and
how it integrated with everybody else and who he was

(36:36):
going to be in scenes with. And then when I
was in Budapest and prep on Dust Bunny, he called
and he was like, is that happening anytime soon? And
I was like, Oh, I was like, no, I'm doing
this movie and we'll be done. You know, I won't

(36:56):
be done with this movie until, you know, probably next summer,
because you know, we're shooting until September and then you know,
post and all of that, and uh, I got my
my birthday texts, you know, because he sends those birthday

(37:17):
texts out. Uh. And then shortly after that, Uh, it was,
it was. It was a strange day. It was a
strange to get the birthday texts and then here shortly
after that that he had passed. And so that that

(37:38):
was sort of a weird, universal kind of like beautiful
thing too. That got me to reconnect with him in
a way that I you know, because we've all had
those situations where a friend passes and you're like, I
was gonna call him, yeah, and I didn't for whatever reason,

(37:58):
I didn't, and I missed my wind and yeah. So
I was grateful for being able to make that connection
with a reconnect with him in a way before we
all lost him and lost what he gave all of us.

(38:18):
So there's a third season. Sadly, there will be no
Oscar Virvinius, but one of the most amazing.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
Oh well, there you back hurt for a second.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
You killed Paul Rubins. This is your agenda.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
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Speaker 3 (39:58):
The funnest one of the the most amazing things about
calling all the cast, about bringing everybody back for pushing
Daisies is Sei McBride is has such a brilliant mind.
He knew every episode name, He knew every character. Like
most of the people I called, they were like, what
was that person like? And like we did that? Like

(40:20):
they had to be kind of like reminded of, you know,
where the story left off and where we were going
with the shy had a photographic memory of every script,
every line of dialogue, other actors' dialogue. He knew all
the characters' names. Will you know, will so and so
be coming back? Will this character be coming back? Remember

(40:41):
when they said that that was so funny. I loved
them in this episode? What was that like? Season two,
episode six.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
And got a Life.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
I don't think it's about like life as much as
that's just how bless sharp he is. I wish my
brain was that sharp.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
It's not too far off like I was.

Speaker 3 (41:03):
I was stunned because he knew stuff that.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
I had forget forgotten.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Wow, yeah, and so knock would I hope it's still.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Then?

Speaker 4 (41:14):
I mean, geez, never say it. It could be a movie.
I just loved the show so much. I wondered this.
I was thinking about this last night. What do you
what have you noticed in political atmospheres as your career
has gone, along with the sort of nuanced way in
which you do your work in terms of the shows

(41:35):
that you produce, the shows that you make, and how
they operate within, you know, the confines of how we
For instance, you know, I think that the Bush Ears
created grunge, right, Yes, absolutely absolutely. How does you do
you consider that at all?

Speaker 2 (41:51):
It's something good? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (41:54):
Well, oftentimes I think creatively it's an escape.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Like so.

Speaker 3 (42:04):
When was Obama was at twenty twelve eighty two thou
eight eighty sixteen, which was a very creatively lucrative period
for me. That was pushing Daisies, That was Hannah and.

Speaker 4 (42:25):
Them.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
They're still having separate to Las Vegas at the Chef's
restaurant at Jose's.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
Gave them all the food for the Yeah, and he
you know, helped us with all the recipes in between
saving the world. Yes, still still like that's amazing, like
an angel who walks among us. And I think there's
something about that period that was safe and hopeful. So

(42:56):
creativity flowed, and I think, you know, twenty sixteen to
twenty twenty was I remember when I got the call
about Discovery. It was the it was the first debate

(43:17):
with Hillary Clinton and Trump, and my money was stop here,
and I was I was driving back from the offices,
so I was hearing it as opposed to seeing it
and listening to it. I was like, he's winning, Like
he's winning this debate because he was just she was.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Going with old style politics, so that was being turned
upside down on its head.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
Yeah, she's been since. Yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
That in a weird way. Was it put in perspective
the loss of discovery because I was like, oh, bu,
I got nothing to bitch about. Yeah, because the country's
in trouble and little me and this little show are

(44:12):
put everything in perspective, Like all of a sudden, my
loss became very very very small, sure, and I was
looking at a greater loss of humanity. I mean, what
hate crimes increased like seventy percent under.

Speaker 4 (44:28):
His The locusts came out.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
Yeah, Yeah, it was definitely, but they weren't coming for
the pharaohs. They were coming for distrecious citizens. I think
his what was happening there wasn't the most creatively fertile
time for me in between twenty sixteen and it was.
It was the loss of Star Trek, which was a
dream to create a Star Trek show, and it was, yeah,

(44:56):
a huge dream, a huge dream. But it definitely I
think after the loss of Discovery that there was this
kind of like, okay, shift gears, So there.

Speaker 4 (45:13):
Was a gear.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
That's That's when I sat down and I wrote dust
Bunny and uh so that I remember I wrote that
in twenty eighteen.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
I'm not seeing that it is.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
It it comes out next year, or it comes out this.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
Year later this year, my bed I didn't come out yet.
That's with That's too, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
Mass Michaelson, Sigourney Weaver, Dave DoLS Melch and Shila directed it. Yes,
wrote and directed. So it was so it was like
I felt like, I feel like politically because that was
a not a safe place, didn't feel safe, didn't feel
like a safe environment that I kind of cocooned.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
And what's the elevator puts for that.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
A little girl hires a hitman to kill the monster
under her bed, and that was originally going to be
in Amazing Stories that because I worked on that. That
was also in that period. It was another show that
I left before it got off the ground, and that

(46:18):
was so there were a few of the episodes that
was that was one of them that I absolutely loved,
And that was a reassessment period. I think when we
get into these times and you know, we're heading into

(46:38):
one where it's like, okay, you know what's going to happen,
maybe it is a time to reassess what are the
messages that we want to say. But I definitely feel
like it's a more creative opportunity than in twenty sixteen
because in some ways we know what we're dealing with

(47:01):
and now now and even.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Here is that he knows what he's doing a bit
more than he did.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
He does, and he's got he's definitely got more allies.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Look at him, they're lining up.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
I mean, can you believe in Disney's sort of getting
behind him, and it's it's you know, we're not with
mister Musk and h and Facebook and them, and they're
all just they will just want to get out of
his crossairs.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
Well, I think they also know that if it were
a different administration, some of the things that they've been
doing would be called out or ended. In terms of
how they conduct themselves with business. I think that the
a different type of presidency would be instilling more regulations

(47:50):
on how they operated their businesses.

Speaker 4 (47:52):
So they're like, I came across something recently that said,
look at the Borges, thirty years of terror and murder
and all sorts of things, but that gave us Da Vinci. Yeah,
it gave us the Renaissance. It gave us Michelangelo. And

(48:14):
then on the same hand, you have in Switzerland five
hundred years of democracy and brotherly love, and we got
a cuckoo clock.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yes, yes, got chocolate.

Speaker 4 (48:30):
Watches aren't bad either, But my point.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
You know, yeah, it's gonna be it's it's gonna be interesting.
I think we have like, yeah, you know, hopefully it's
only well it can only be four years. Well, well
that's true, that's true.

Speaker 4 (48:45):
We're hoping famous last words, it's from the Third Man.
Actually it's from the Third Man, that quote.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
But now do you feel about it, Like, how do
you feel about the.

Speaker 4 (48:56):
Shift of always felt when there are times of sort
of safety and happiness, that there's a bit of a
flatline artistically, right, and then when there is stirm and
drong involved, then the artists typically have a reflection on
that and interpret all of that themselves and we get

(49:17):
more dynamic examples of what we do, which is the
you know, the art that we create. Yeah, that's I've
always felt that way.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
I mean, like Bowie died in twenty sixteen, right, so
that like it definitely felt like there was, like in
Star Trek terms, there was a schism in the continuity
of time and space with that loss, and that was
that was actually one of the most profound celebrity deaths

(49:47):
that because we were trying to cast him on Hannibal
and we like, we were going to cast him as
mass Michelson's uncle and yeah, so good, and we offered
him the role and said, we're only going to put
this character in the show if he wants to do it,
and the response was, he's working on an album and

(50:08):
so he's unavailable, but ask us again next season. So
like we were going to do it in the second season,
and then we were going to do it in the
third season and So we went back twice, and both
times it was like he's worked because he did Dark
Star or Black Star, Blackstar and the new what's the
one that had the because he had two like right

(50:29):
back to back the next day, the next day and Blackstar,
both I think are amongst his best works.

Speaker 4 (50:39):
I agree.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
So there was something about his loss in the universe
that felt like everything afterwards. I was like, of course,
it's weird as shit. Now we lost, we lost a
tent poll of creativity. So and then the pandemic and
all of this weird ship between Trump and the pandemic.

(51:05):
I feel like we were, you know, just getting back
on our feet only to have a stumble again.

Speaker 4 (51:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
I loved Bowie. I just was I wasn't quite old enough.
I mean, I loved him.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
I had all his albums as a thirteen year old.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yeah, But Prince was was the guy that I first
truly fell in loved yeah with a girl, and his
music was the background of that love affair where Bowie's
wasn't as it were you.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
Know, Well, Bowie I didn't connect with until I was
an adult, right, same like when I was a kid,
I was like, I mean, I like, let's dance, right,
and but but the other stuff, Yeah, it was outside
that really got it for me, which I think was
his It was like a nineties.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
Funky dory was my was my era, And I want
to I want to, I want to dance dance off
at the local tennis club. But yeah, I mean I
as a as a as a young teenager. I mean
I saw him on my seventeenth birthday in Milton Keynes.
God bless and uh yeah for some reason though, Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
Was just printing go way back to back.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
Yeah, yeah, then Tom Petty and Chris Cornell and I
didn't want to leave the house. Yeah, you know, I
wanted to. I keep reading about this fuller verse. Oh yes,
you know. And you you you use actors and even
characters in other shows, right, yeah, as the same character?

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Yes, yeah, and how possible?

Speaker 4 (52:35):
How do you do that?

Speaker 3 (52:38):
You know? Sometimes it's it's about, uh, well, we could
cast somebody new, or we could cast somebody that's you
know that we know can do the job and just
change the name of the character. And uh so it's
usually about wanting to work with an actor again. And

(53:03):
so it's it's it's not so much of like it's
not a conscious act of infusing these people in your
in your projects because you have a bigger idea about
your projects. Now, it's about loving the people that I
work with and wanting to do it again and again,
and it's I mean, I love actors. I love actors,

(53:24):
and I.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
Sense that, Yeah, I can sense that from you. Yeah,
I wish.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
I like there was a time where I wanted to
be an actor. I took Groundlinks classes and I did
all of the the performances, but I would before going
on stage pray that a car would come creating off
of Melrose into the theater, killing as many people as

(53:50):
needed to die, so I wouldn't have to go on.

Speaker 4 (53:53):
So there could have go on two actions, so there
could be more folks on stage in the audience, and
you could cancel it.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. So but that Groundlings is what
like really gave me my love of writing. And I
had wonderful teachers. Kathy Griffin was one of my teachers.
Mindy Sterling was one of my teachers. Wow, And they
really taught me about character and specificity in a way

(54:20):
that I was like, Oh, this is what I'm supposed
to be doing. Like I was like I performed in
shows with Molly Shannon and Will Ferrell and an Agat Steer,
and so there was like all of these people who
went on and I wanted like when I wanted to
and I went to Star Trek and you know, my

(54:42):
friends went to Saturday Night Live, right, And so there
was something about just accepting that that was my route
and also being more comfortable with it, and the relief
of you know, because as you know, when you're on
stage or in front of the camera, so much is

(55:05):
reliant on you getting everything perfect, whereas as a writer
you're able to find it on your time, mold it, yeah,
craft it, really have an experience with it. So I
think that there's something about capturing the magic of spontaneity
that actors do that I will always have so much

(55:29):
respect for. And I'm constantly inspired and moved by actors.
And yes, we can put things on a page, but
like the story with Ellen Green, an actor can transform
your intention and you're like, I had no idea, that's
what I meant, and I'm a genius, I'm but it's

(55:53):
really about finding the muse seems like the wrong word
because it feels like you're in service, like amuses in
service of a writer, and that feels false. It feels
like everybody's in service of something higher.

Speaker 4 (56:13):
Story.

Speaker 3 (56:14):
Story, and the stories are what move us as stories
are like what made us want to be here, that made.

Speaker 4 (56:23):
Us want to.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
Share a reaction, find capture some moment of authenticity that
we could share with the world and then somebody could
see the authenticity and that And I interact a lot
with people who like my shows on social media, and
I never feel like, oh, I'm talking to a fan.

(56:51):
I feel like I'm talking to a friend who likes
the same things that I do. Yeah, And that's a beautiful.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
Its plice to come from.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
I really is, and I I really I always commend that,
particularly anyone that is a critic even and is writing,
whether it's about music or if they're a fan first
then it's it's you trust what they say and it's
coming from the right place.

Speaker 4 (57:17):
Have you written for people in mind? Actors in mind?
If it's not, if it's not yet, not yet, like
like for instance, Mads Michelson could not be better cast.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
And that was a tough cast, like they did not
want me to cast him?

Speaker 4 (57:36):
Really, who else would you?

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Again?

Speaker 3 (57:39):
Was such a and arduous process. I think it took
three or four months to get them to finally allow
us to uh because Hugh Nancy, everybody agreed like fantastic,
like he They're like he's great. Yes, yes, yes, everybody

(58:01):
was on board. And Hugh and I have dispute over
this because Hugh says it was my idea and I
say it was his idea because we were talking about
who should play Hannibal, and.

Speaker 4 (58:12):
I swear.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
To whatever higher power you want to recognize that. He
was like, you know, I worked with mass before and
he's he'd be great. And I was like, oh my god.
And he was like, no, you said it to me,
and I was like did I? So we so it
was like he was cast and we're like mas Michelson
and they were like, I don't.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Know what had he done. He'd done a couple of things.

Speaker 3 (58:40):
He had done Casino roy.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
Yeah, seen Royal, Right, so yeah, and you know, surprise
that didn't sort of tip the balance for him pretty quick.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
Well, for me, it was a royal affair because he's
so heartbreaking in that movie, and I knew it was
a love story and at the time I thought it
was a love story between two straight Men, and then
as it went on, I was like, everybody's square, So
it was it was a different kind of approach to it.

(59:10):
But he's he's so heartbreaking and yearns so beautifully on
camera that I was like, that's like he's got to
yearn for this connection with this other human that is
giving him something that he's never had before. So they
said no, and they would say who they wanted, and
then we would go to that person, and like they

(59:33):
wanted Hugh Grant and I was like, he's never going
to do it. He just passed on seven hundred and
fifty thousand dollars an episode for two and a half
Men to replace Charlie Sheen and what Yeah, And I
was like, so what are they thinking. I was like,

(59:54):
there's no way he's going to do it. We don't
have enough money to pay him. And they were like, well,
make the offer, and we made the offer. He said no,
and I was like mass Michelson and then they're like, uh,
what about Paul Bettany and we and I love Paul
Bettany and we went around a couple of times. I

(01:00:17):
think I had four conversations with him where he would
call and he would sort of circle and then he
finally said no. I was like mass Michelson, They're like, no,
what about James Spader and James Spader Path like all
of these people, Like.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
The needle is so small, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
You could still see any one of those actors play it. Yeah,
really and and be very good.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
And that that's why I was like, okay, sure, like
if that's if, if if that helps you support the show,
because you don't. You also don't want to be like,
know your idea sucks, let's not do this right. So
we went to a lot of actors and they all
said no, and Mas was like, yes, want to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
I'll do it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
And I was like he here's a person who wants
to do it, who's amazing. Look at him and they
were like he's sort of like weird and like he
just seems like very euro weird. And I was like,
it's like, shouldn't he be sexier? And I was like
he's sexiest, Yeah, like there's there's there's nary as sexier.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
And just throw your arms up in the air at
some of these amazings.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
It's it's the casting process is so degrading for everybody.
And I reached out to mas and I was like,
would you audition? Like I hate, I hate to ask
you this, but like we're like I just can't get
them there. And he's like, of course he came in
auditioned was amazing. They're like, nah, he's sort of creepy.

(01:01:55):
And I was like, he's eating people. Had laim be
a little creepy.

Speaker 4 (01:02:01):
What are we making here?

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
And uh that what was this? NBCC?

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
And finally yeah, so finally, like it was the last
person had said no, And I called Jen Sulky, who
was running it, and I was like, Jen, I have
to write this. I have to, you know, craft the

(01:02:30):
show and believe in it and believe in everything. I
believe in him. I believe that he can do this.
I see him in the role. It's hard for me
to see anybody else. And she was like, I trust you,
I trust your vision. Let's do it. And so that
was her response. Her boss's response sent an emails like, well,

(01:02:52):
you got what you wanted. You're on your own and
like they have to our our marketing budget for what
not not having belief in the show with Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
Spite really isn't it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
It was a little it was a little spiteful. Jen
was amazing, you know what, you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Proved them wrong anyway, so well.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
And and because Jen kept us on the air despite
like we didn't have great ratings. But Jen Sulky, who's
now running Amazon, she was like, I I think the
show is great. They were paying nothing for it, Like
the licensing fee was the smallest licensing fee that they had.

(01:03:36):
It was, it was nothing. And the show is very
cheap at the like our budget was and the first season,
first two, first season was two point two five million.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
You didn't know it looks like a million bucks.

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
We touristically made everything dark so you couldn't see how
cheap everything looks interesting And the first season was too too,
two point two five. Second season was two five, third
season was three two and so it was a very
economic show. And our scripts were like thirty three pages long,

(01:04:16):
like so we you know we we because all that atmosphere. Yes,
And also Gillian Anderson made the most fantastic and nerving
choice to speak very deliberately as her character. So you
could give Jillian a page of dialogue and it's six
minutes and it was just and you don't want to

(01:04:38):
cut away because she just like grabs you and doesn't
let go. So it was economic for lots of reasons,
but so general was like, oh, keep it on the air.
It doesn't cost us anything, and do whatever you want.
Blessed like, do whatever you like, do the show that
you want to do, and you don't have to They're

(01:05:00):
there were not any NBC didn't give us a ton
of notes. Like the Standards and Practices was one of
the best relationships that I had. And Joanna was our
Standards and Practices executive and I was like, hey, Joanna,
we have to have a guy like, you know, cut
off his face and feed it to dogs. Do we

(01:05:23):
do that? And she was like, just make the blood
black and turn down the lights.

Speaker 4 (01:05:27):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
And the only thing that she was like, I don't
know how you can do this is that we had
Eddie Czard had hooked somebody's intestines up to a ceiling fan,
so that and why they were still alive. So when
somebody came into the room and turned on the light
and the ceiling fan would disappow right there. And she's like,

(01:05:49):
I just don't know how you're going to do it.
And I was like, can we try? And she's like,
you can try. And then production was like we can't
afford it, Like, you get one shot and if you
don't get it, there's no way for us to do
a re set without doing this. So she was willing
to let us try the ceiling fan disembowlment a sweet
of her. She was the coolest lady. She was so cool,

(01:06:12):
and my assistant at the time made a book of
all of the standards of practices, emails of you know
when you're doing this, like please keep in mind that
the blood needs to be black, because the red of
the blood, the less likely it is that you can
put it on TV.

Speaker 4 (01:06:32):
Really, so if you.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
Darken the blood, even if it's like a dark you know, burgundy,
then you can still get away with it.

Speaker 4 (01:06:39):
So you can make the food look like blood and
that's fine, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
Because you're going to eat it and it looks like meat.
And jose and Dresses is helping you out. So yeah,
Hannibal was creatively a great experience because Jen sulky, because
the steaks were so low that she was like, how
great for me to be able to tell you that

(01:07:03):
you can do whatever you want to do because it
and also we should have been canceled after the first
season because our ratings were sold. Yeah, and like I
think we had like three million, and that was at
the time when three million wasn't enough, wasn't enough, right,
And no, we started with six We started with we
started with five, five or six million, and then it

(01:07:25):
got down to three by by the end of the thing,
end of the run. But it was you know, it
was great that she gave us the opportunity, and she
was a fantastic executive who supported the show in the
way that she could when her bosses were not supporting
the show because we didn't cast who they wanted. And

(01:07:49):
so I think Hannibal was one of like Pushing Daisies
was more of a struggle creatively with network and because
there were things that we they were just like, it's
it's too weird. You have to make it more mainstream.
And they were probably right. We probably would have had
higher numbers if we went a safer, more mainstream your show,

(01:08:10):
but it wasn't my show.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Yeah, but it wouldn't have been that. I don't know
what show would have been. If you how do you straighten?
I don't know how you do that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
I didn't either, and that's I think that's where like
I I really don't mean to be difficult with a
lot of the executives. But when I resist those notes,
it's because I don't know how to do them. I
don't like my brain won't.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
It doesn't compute.

Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
Yeah, and and I've gotten better. The older I got,
I've gotten, I've also gotten, you know, more like, oh,
it's it's it's perhaps not a hill to die on,
whereas before I'm like, no, the art must speak for itself.

(01:08:57):
Maybe might be yeah, well it's it's that, And it's
it's this singular understanding of something where you're where you
come out and it comes out and you accept it
for how it is. And you know, it's also probably

(01:09:19):
a little bit being raised in a Catholic environment where
you're told how to be and the rebellion of that, Yeah,
the rebellion, and also just kind of the the intrinsic
queerness of choosing something that's different or relating to something

(01:09:40):
that's different, and that being a guiding principle more than.

Speaker 4 (01:09:48):
An edict.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
But I think the older that I've gotten, the more
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
We're a bright red coach. A mother's funeral because it was.

Speaker 3 (01:09:55):
It was your favorite, and you know it. I knew
it would make her happy, you know, to see that
coat so like, And I think that's that's also part
of the the when you interact a lot with the
people who like your stuff. And I'm sure you've had
many many interactions with Star Trek.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Fanilies who love fling.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
Yeah it is, and honoring and honoring it's it makes.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
It something sort of you know, wasteful and silly, right,
and then you realize actually, in someone's life, it's it's
actually a time out and that makes me makes them happy,
and that's nothing to be sniffed at, isn't that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
No, it touches them, and it's sort of like, oh,
it's and I I've become friends with so many people
who've who love Hannibal or love Pushing Daisies, and then
we start talking about the influences and they like that
thing too, and so then we bond over that. So
and it's it's, uh, it's a wonderful way to find community.

(01:11:06):
And I know so many people who quote unquote create
shows or catch the ideas that become a show that
are like, that's weird. And I was like, how did
you feel when you saw Star Wars? Yeah, weren't you
transported weren't you, Like, wouldn't you love to meet George
Lucas and say thank you? And then find out that

(01:11:28):
George Lucas likes the same things that you do and
like how great is that? And also I think what's
important about it is access to the dream. Because when
I had my teacher at Lewis Clark State College say
get the two film school, I was like, that's not

(01:11:49):
for people like me. I don't have access to that.
I am not gifted that way. And he was like,
everybody is gifted that way if they choose to find
that gift within themselves. So why are why can't you?
And the next student teacher conference there were film school

(01:12:10):
pamphlets laid out in front of his desk. He said,
pick three and apply.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
Good man, brilliant.

Speaker 4 (01:12:16):
Well we I'm waiting with baited breath for the next
thing to come out. I can't wait to see dust bunnies.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Yeah, thank you, it was.

Speaker 4 (01:12:22):
It's been such a thrill. We're on a time limit
here and we uh we we all have to go yes, yes, yes,
yes I would.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
I would love to such a pleasure, such a pleasure
as all mine.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
All these years, but we've never had sort of quality
time with you like this and it's been really heartfelt.

Speaker 3 (01:12:41):
Thank you and thank you for having me, thank you
for thinking of me for the show.

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
And you're an extraordinary bright light mate.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
Thank you, Yes, thank you, as are you. And I
didn't even get to tell you the story about like
stealing the script for the Enterprise pilot. We have go ahead, okay,
So it was a big secret.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
I did hear about this that. Yeah, lifted it off
the desk.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
Yeah, and uh so everybody was being uh really particular
about the script and who could get it and uh
and I knew I wasn't going to be working on
the show because I've been told by that time.

Speaker 4 (01:13:18):
And so.

Speaker 3 (01:13:20):
Lolita Fat Joe told me. I knew where the keys were.
I knew where her keys were to everything, and so
I went into her office. I got the keys to
Brandon's office, and I got the keys to the filing
cabinet that the script was in. Opened up Brandon's office,
open up the filing cabinet, took the script. It was

(01:13:44):
mission impossible. I went down to the xerox machine. You
really copied it and then like.

Speaker 4 (01:13:50):
You put it back together.

Speaker 3 (01:13:52):
I was caught because there was a page left in
the copy machine, which like I like Brandon told me
he did the same thing with the Voyagers. Show was like, okay,
this is karma for you doing this. This wouldn't have happened,

(01:14:12):
but yes, like it got caught in the machine and
somebody found it the next day, and so they knew
exactly who did it because the dusting down the folding
cabinet my my chicken, like my like, they could tell
that I was. I was on the lot at that time,
and I was the only one in the building at
that time. And they were so careful about it. They

(01:14:36):
were like, well, we hope whoever did it is not
going to share it publicly to hurt the show. But
they they made it very clear.

Speaker 4 (01:14:49):
Black suit show up at your door.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
They could smell. So yes, I was.

Speaker 3 (01:14:58):
I was tenacious, funny, Yeah you are.

Speaker 4 (01:15:02):
You are absolutely that, absolutely that, and again thank you
for telling us that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
And and man, what a joy to have you on.
Thank you. Love joy was mine, Oh blessed, Thank.

Speaker 4 (01:15:12):
You, Live long and prosper, Live long and prosper.

Speaker 3 (01:15:14):
I could do it with that hand, but I broke
his hand. I can only do that until I get it.
Like ticks, I'm still recovering Bingley,