Owen Ellis!

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Boom Dad Pod Episode Shit nine nine.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's gotta be nice to think about or have that
in order before.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yeah, I always should. At nine, we've got a guest
again today, We've got Owen in the building. What's your
last name? On?

Speaker 3 (00:18):
Ellis?

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Ellis Owen. Ellis Owen trains CrossFit at the gym. Owen
is part of the Friday Harbor Run Club. Owen's training
for Are you training for a marathon? Yeah? Yeah, training
for marathons. Grew up in Pennsylvania, lived in twelve States,
been on island about two years. Owen's a trans man

(00:41):
and reached out to keV about a different perspective on fatherhood, parenthood,
parenting children assigned to different genders, and we said, great,
sounds like a good convo.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. He Owen hit me up
after Brady's podcast and was like, Hey, I listened to
the podcast with uh with Brady. You guys are talking
about the difference of raising and parenting boys and girls,
and as a trans person, I've got an interesting perspective

(01:14):
on that. If you're if you're down to have that
kind of episode. At first, I was like, fucking what
transfer it was? What is I don't know. I mean,
I know what that means, but like I don't write
like my world isn't surrounded by that community. And that's
why I was like, yeah, man, hell yeah, let's do that.

(01:34):
You know, like I think it's an interesting conversation to
have with with everyone, and I don't think it I
don't think there's a many places or conversations where you
can have that where people like, hey, here's here's a
couple of dudes and a couple of dads, you know,
and owen you know what I mean, and just like
having that open conversation of just like what who you are,

(01:57):
how it is, and then like how can we debate
all the shit that we see on the internet about
somehow there's got there's like a divide between like I
don't know that it's trans community and masculinity and just
like that whole intersection of like people that are just
existing here and again, man, like thank you for reaching

(02:19):
out and like having this and and just having a
place where we can we can talk to shit and
and get to know each other. And then also like
kind of bring this conversation to people that like would
not normally have this, right, Like we see the things
on algorithms and whatnot, but like to to have people
that like we know personally, like we spend a lot
of time together, you know. I mean we're in the

(02:40):
gym together three or four times a week, which is
kind of which is cool because I mean I had
no idea, you know, like when you hit me up
about that, it was like what really, wow, you know,
like fucking cool. You know, so yeah, we'll just kind
of roll from that, and yeah, how do we how

(03:04):
do we transition into Owen sent.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Us a nice a nice couple questions that that a
couple of them like pinged off that that feeling of
like oh dope, like I haven't thought about it in
this way in a long time or ever, or you know,
and like if anything sets off in me something that
like oh I should examine my patterns of thinking and

(03:27):
where I learned stuff and what I proliferate like I'm
always into like Okay, let's let's explore that and figure out,
you know, is there adjusting needed, is there? Updating to
the software?

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Is there?

Speaker 1 (03:39):
You know? Is there things that affect community members that
I directly engage with that I need to be more
mindful of, you know, And that, you know, that's been
a for me. When I was in college was like
the first time that I really had that kind of
big perspective shift because I grew up in you know,

(04:01):
I mean, we're all you're thirty three, thirty ninety two,
so like, you know, we grew up everything was gay,
you know, everything like you're gay, this is gay. And
it was kind of one of those like, you know,
it's parlance of the times, it's what we say. It's
not directly aimed at homosexual activities or lifestyles. But like

(04:25):
in college, I was that was the first time I
joined a fraternity based on African principles and social justice,
and that was the first time where I was like, oh,
like even just me saying gay or fag or this,
like if a person who's gay and struggling with the
societal impact or like pressure or attitudes, like just me

(04:50):
saying that around them is like punching someone in the
liver or like poking them with a stick. You know,
it's like that's an unnecessary aggression into the world. That
like that's not what I feel in my heart, So
why would I be careless with the language. So from
that point on, I was like, Okay, what language and
what thought patterns am I indoctrinated with that?

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Like?

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Are not serving what I believe as far as like
love and compassion and understanding and community. And so that
was the first time and like I've you know, my
my perspective on that stuff has I guess broadened or
deepened with just friendships. But for you growing up in

(05:34):
relatively the same era, like do you want to you
want well? Do you want yeah? Do you want to
get to you want to get to the questions you
asked us? Or do you want to give us like
kind of an intro into how your experience has shaped
you and how it started.

Speaker 4 (05:49):
Yeah, I can give you sort of a rundown of
my last ten or fifteen years.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
So I am thirty three.

Speaker 4 (05:57):
I effectively started transitioning almost exactly ten years ago in
two weeks, it'll be ten years.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
When I was twenty three, so out of college.

Speaker 4 (06:05):
Living on my own in Montana. I had for a
number of years at that point, I had known that
I was trans and that I was going to have
to do something about it at some point, and I
had been just kind of sitting on that, trying to
ignore it.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
And then trying to deal with it and then getting.

Speaker 4 (06:23):
To a point where I chose to or had to
deal with it. So when I was twenty three, I
started on hormones socially transitioned as people say, so I
changed my name that year. I started asking people to
use he and him pronouns for me.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Was that hard? Was that to? I mean just to
act of like, hey, yeah, this, I mean that's gotta be.
And when you said, like you knew when you started
the process, like what does that if you can remember?
Like what did that? When you say you know? I
was like, man, I knew I had to do this,
Like do you yeah?

Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
The first time I met another trans person as far
as I knew, was when I was thirteen or fourteen
through a youth group basically, and she was a little
bit older than me and a trans girl, trans woman.
But we had a very quick connection of like there,
you know, like something is going on here. We have
something in common and we're both young teenagers, right, So

(07:26):
it was hard to articulate what it was, and it
still took me a couple of years to figure out like, oh,
she's trans, I'm trans. That's why we had this like
immediate connection, but we definitely did undeniable. And then by
the time I got to college when I was about seventeen,
there were a handful of other trans people in my class,

(07:47):
and so I had a sort of similar experience where
I was like, I'm so interested in these people and
I'm so curious about their lives and I really want
to know what their deal is, what they've got going on.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
And that scanned to me.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
At first as like, oh, it's because I'm like a
creepy bigot who's like obsessed with trans people.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Right.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
I didn't quite have it for myself yet. I didn't
know that I was looking in a mirror, right, And
so it felt like weird and creepy to me that
I was so interested in these people, which was challenging
to navigate. So I when I was in college year
one or two is when I first basically came out

(08:30):
to my family and I was like, I don't really
know what this is or means, but I guess I'm
trans and I don't really know what to do with that,
and that like went fine.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
You know, I got from my immediate.

Speaker 4 (08:40):
Family, I got back like cool, we love you no
matter what, and like hope you're having a great time
at college basically, but that's it's like hard to take
action on that, right, And like, to me, this is
one of the key points of difference between being gay
and coming out of your family. You can be like, hey,
I'm gay or I'm a lesbian or whatever, and they
be like, great, okay, I love you.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
But like coming out and saying, hey, I'm trans and
also I'm a minor.

Speaker 4 (09:03):
I'm seventeen at this point is like there's stuff to
do there, right, There's changing your name using different pronouns,
there's medical care, there's paperwork, right, and.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Your parents have to be involved.

Speaker 4 (09:14):
In that when you're a minor typically yes, right, And
but I didn't know any of that.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
I didn't.

Speaker 4 (09:22):
I just didn't have the information I needed, and neither
did my parents because this was in the mid twenty
tens when like trans people just don't have this kind
of publicity that we do now.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
So they, I would say, did well, but we.

Speaker 4 (09:34):
Were all kind of uninformed, and then we didn't talk
about it for six years basically, and then getting to
the point when I was twenty three that I started transitioning.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
Meetings started on hormones.

Speaker 4 (09:48):
I had reached a point in my life where there
were no other options, right, Like I was not suicidal,
I don't think, but life was terrible, right, And and I
was getting to the point where I could see basically
one way out or like one thing I hadn't tried,
or one part of myself that I had been too.

Speaker 3 (10:10):
Afraid to look at or examine or get close to.

Speaker 4 (10:14):
And so that is the path that I took when
there were no other paths.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
Left to me.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Hm. Now, before so you were born bio logically a woman?

Speaker 3 (10:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Were you dating up until? Were you? Were you dating men?
Were you dating women? Where does that? Because like when
I was telling people that I'm I'm having you on
the podcast and I'm having a pod and they're like, well,
who do they date? You know what I mean, Like
how does that work? And I was like I have
no idea.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yeah, you know, Like right, I didn't date much.

Speaker 4 (10:58):
I was a weird, awkward teenager with a lot of
body related self loathing and total lack of self confidence,
which is not attractive to anybody.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
But that that is like part of what was.

Speaker 4 (11:12):
Hard about figuring out what was going on is like
I was a good like trans one, Oh, one thing
to put in your pocket is like sexual orientation who
you want to go to bed with and gender identities
who you want to go to bed as. Right, there's
like there's nuance to that, but it's a good like
rule of thumb for people who know very little about

(11:32):
this stuff. And so when I was young and a teenager,
I was I was an am mostly attracted to men
like seventy five percent, and so I looked like a
straight girl, right, and that made it hard to figure
out what was happening. You know, when I was in
high school, I know that everybody thought I was a

(11:53):
butch lesbian in denial basically.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
And I was.

Speaker 4 (11:57):
I knew that I was like adjacent to the quick
your community and wanted to be friends with these people,
but like they all thought I was a self hating lesbian,
so they like didn't want to talk to me until
I figured it out and admitted to myself that I
was a lesbian. You got, So that didn't go great.
And I grew up in a in a very religious,

(12:17):
very conservative area where it was not cool to be gay,
meaning like not acceptable. You would get ostracized, teachers would
be weird to you, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
And so that was part of.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
It also interesting, Yeah, because it's it's interesting you say,
like like the teachers would be it would be weird
to you because it's like the fact that like people
feel like they would have to navigate that instead of
just like yo, like what's up man, you know what
I mean? Or like hey, you're like it's not something
to navigate, it's just like who you are, right right,

(12:52):
Like that's interesting.

Speaker 3 (12:54):
Yeah, yeah, I mean when you're a teenager, you have
no idea who you are.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yeah. True.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
So, like I at least was like hyper sensitive to
any kind of weirdness coming from anybody because I felt
so extremely weird about myself and my life and everything
that like I had no idea what was going on,
and I had no perspective and like, and I had
good adults in my life. I mean, my parents are chill.
I was a girl Scout and had a great girl

(13:20):
Scout leader, and there were a couple of other people around,
you know, friends' parents who were like good adults and
good role models. But also like you know, nobody had
any idea what to do or like what trans people
were or anything.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Did you have a sense or do you have a
sense now looking back, like how much of your feelings
of discomfort and feelings of something's wrong or like this
is like like everything about existence is uncomfortable, Like how

(13:56):
much of that is like being a teenager, or how
much of that as being maybe sexually unsure of where
you fit in the labels, or how much like religious
oppression vibes? You know, like how do you how did
you navigate? Like okay, like there's something else that's that's
deeper in a separate issue to like the kind of

(14:18):
because I know that and I'm not I'm I'm absolutely
not researched on any studies or any anything like that,
but I have heard that like the comorbidities of of
autism or spectrum stuff like placement as far as like
every autistic person is extremely uncomfortable in their body to
the to a point you know, like did you have

(14:39):
do you have a sense of how that what? Like
what was the moment where you were like, ah, this
is a different thing.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
It's hard to point to a specific moment. I mean
a good anecdote is like I when I was about
seven and in second grade, is the first time I
had a short haircut, Like a boy's haircut. Basically, it
probably wasn't all that short, but it was the nineties,
so like the shag was in style for young boys.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
And don't I don't remember exactly what the haircut was.

Speaker 4 (15:10):
But I basically had never had a haircut other than
a trim until that point in my life. So I
was a little kid with really long hair, and then
I got a short haircut. And I have a clear
and specific memory of being in like the grocery store
or a gas station or somewhere in public with my
mom where we ran into somebody that she knew or
who was being friendly or something, and they basically said like, oh,

(15:33):
and who's your son.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
Right looking at me. And the reason I remember this.

Speaker 4 (15:38):
Is because I had such a moment of like, oh,
they're talking about me. Oh I can do that, that's allowed,
Like gosh, I really hope Mom doesn't like rap me
out to this person, which she did obviously like oh
this is my daughter, obviously, because of course that is
what you would say in that situation, but it was
such a it was such a moment of like, Oh,

(16:02):
there's like something happening in the way that people perceive
me that is different from how I.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
Think that I am.

Speaker 4 (16:09):
And also I was seven, so I you know, I'm
like still becoming conscious basically, and but but I think,
like dating to that, I had some understanding about my
own internal idea of myself versus the way I was
being perceived in the world, and I had some understanding
that they were different. And then I didn't get a

(16:30):
haircut for three years, and then I got a short
haircut in fifth grade, and then I didn't get a
haircut for three years, got a short haircut in eighth grade,
and kept it short since then since I was like thirteen,
and now I don't have any hair shut out right, Yeah,

(16:51):
So that's like I think I knew for a long time,
like something is is not quite right, or like something
doesn't quite fit. And I had some vague, like child's
understanding that it had to do with gender. But it
wasn't until puberty that some of that really started to
get highlighted. And even then it gets wrapped up in

(17:12):
like when you are thirteen and a girl and you
hate your body and you hate growing breasts, and you're
like really scared of starting your period, and you say
some of this to your mom. Your mom's gonna say, well, honey,
a lot of girls feel that way.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
It's okay, it's okay.

Speaker 4 (17:26):
I was scared too write like a lot of women
hate their bodies and that's something that like we just
have to deal with in society as women. So that
also made it really hard to articulate like yes, I
know that that's true, but also like there's still something
else going on here.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, well, that's a good kind of segue into maybe
like that conversation of the difference of gender as a
social construct versus assigned biological sex or sex characteristics, which
may be some of like your past coworkers are homes
are some of the people that that might listen, Like,

(18:02):
I haven't thought about as far as gender being a
social construct and things that are taught and how gender
expresses on the spectrum that the question that that ping
that for me was like how much gender do you have?
And I was like, oh shit, like that's a great question,
and like what parts of our what are the things

(18:24):
that maybe Kevin and I have agreed on as far
as what we value as masculine or ways of being
a man, or or living up to ideals that were
coded as man you know, Yeah, because gender, well you
know gender, gender is a social construct. Biological sex is

(18:44):
also a social construct slightly, yes, yeah, so that's great. Yeah,
So like there are i mean, there's a spectrum of
human what is it, how do you say it? Genetic
expressions or sex characteristics, and we we get in our

(19:05):
society assigned one or the other at birth. So even
if someone you know, whether they're intersex or they have
you know, they're on some sort of spectrum basically you
choose or the doctor chooses at birth and then but
how then they grow up in the social conditioning of
man or woman?

Speaker 2 (19:25):
But when't it you get born? I mean you're born,
you have a penis or you have a vagina. And
again this is gonna be back to like trans one
oh one. You know, I'm totally okay with I'm gonna
sound new, I'm gonna sound like an idiot, I'm gonna
sound like a knuckle dragon goon, and I'm okay with that.
But if you get born and you have a penis,

(19:46):
you're a boy, right, you're born, you have a vagina,
you're you're a girl, right, And that's where with the
biological ones, it's like man, it's like there right, these
are pieces that like they fit together, right, Like they
fit together to create life on the biological sexpart, but

(20:08):
like the gender thing as a social construct, I buy
into completely because I think that whether you are a
man or a woman, the fluidity of masculinity and femininity
is in all of us, right, like you have whether
you're I mean, men have feminine traits like we have them,
some of them and some men there they're less dominant

(20:30):
than in others, and the same like with women, Like
some women are more masculine than other women. It's just
kind of like there's that whole spectrum of it that
I think is fun when you have people that aren't
afraid of that, right, Like that's where I think art
comes from. Like I legitimately think art comes from people

(20:53):
that are okay, plain in that soup of creativity and
masculinity and femininity. Like it's just that is where expression
comes from, is in that But I don't know it's
but yeah, that question with the gender that one never
I'd never thought about that before, Like how much gender

(21:13):
do I have in me? As as a forty two
year old dad of four sons, right, Like I'm one
of three brothers who spent most of my life surrounded
and around large groups of men, right, and then within

(21:34):
that community of people there was like all sorts of
different I don't like versions of the versions of that.
But then it's like then you see in that world
kind of like that that desocial construct of like there's

(21:55):
there's a significant population of straight men in prison that
are having sex, right, Like you will hear the term
in prison, Like as long as you quit two weeks
before you get out, it never happened, you know what
I mean? Like, and it's just kind of and shout
out to those dudes in prison that are gonna listen

(22:16):
to this funk conversation, like yo, stalk, what the fuck
you know, but like those are the cats that need
to hear this shit. You know.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
So on a scale of one to ten, how much
gender do you guys have?

Speaker 1 (22:27):
I said probably like seven and a half.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, I was kind of right in kind of right
in that area too, where like I'm I don't know,
I mean probably seven, you know, of just like kind
of a dude, you know, like I like doing dude shit,
but then I also, you know, like doing what would

(22:50):
be classified as less dude shit, which is like reading
and writing, sitting by myself, you know what I mean,
Like all of these things that like, again we have
been we have been told that these are not things
that men do. Men are men are strong and silent
and detached from their emotions completely when like, I don't know,
we kind of talked about it at the gym the

(23:10):
other day, is like, that's a guy. Like I believe
wholeheartedly that there is a difference between boys, guys and men.
I think men men consider and have this conversation and
not shy away from it, right, not be uncomfortable with
the idea of hearing something new or hearing something that's

(23:32):
going to like maybe trigger an emotional response in you
to like start thinking about things. And guys, guys I
think are the opposite of that, you know what I mean.
They're the strong, silent type. They're the ones that like
show no emotion. It's weakness, you know. And I think

(23:52):
those I don't know, I think guys like that are
the part of the problem with everything that we have
going on. But yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yeah, I tried to think of it in terms of
like what gender roles I accept and like what gender
roles don't fit for me as far as like what
what we're told a man should be or what a
a man looks like, you know. And I was like, okay, well,

(24:26):
you know the the things that have been put to
us as coded masculine is like physically capable and dependent,
a familiarity with aggression, or like that instinct to protect

(24:47):
and fight for what you care about or what you
want to protect, which is not it's not to say
women don't, but like that's like a pretty masculine coded
thing is like societally societally yeah, and and like you
know the things that I don't gender role agree with,

(25:10):
like you know I do. I mean, my wife is
the bread winner. I wake up and take the kids
to school and make their lunches. And you know, if
I if I could lactate, I would nurse the baby,
you know, I like I do a lot of the
I wake up, feed the baby, change the baby, let
let mom sleep like she can feed them. And and

(25:33):
like I have zero I have zero issues with like, yes,
of course I'm wearing my baby on me. Yes of course,
I'm like I don't give a shit what Yeah, color
of their clothes are a love of course my kids
can wear dresses if they think that's a cool style.
I don't don't care about a lot of that, but
like what a man has been presented to as far

(25:55):
as what I try to embody, like, most of the
cultural role models have to do with those like societally
coded masculine things of competence, strength, aggression, but controlled and
when needed and yeah, yeah, that kind of that kind

(26:18):
of stuff. Maybe we maybe we we rewind a bit
and touch on like biology is not either or yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:27):
I was just gonna jump in about that because you
probably could lactate.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Oh yeah, yeah, like most where has that been at.

Speaker 4 (26:37):
I mean, I know, like with with from what I
have read with women generally, meaning like estrogen dominated people,
if you have boobs and like a baby.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Starts nursing on you, like if you're trying to be
a wet nurse for.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
Somebody like you. That's there's a woman on the island
who her and her husband. I know these people personally,
and it's one of the coolest things that I know
that someone has done. They adopted a baby and she
just put that baby to breast and next thing you know,
milk's happening. Milk factory.

Speaker 4 (27:09):
Yeah, and that can happen for CIS men too. I
don't think it's not as common, but it can happen.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
So I would take some that takes some work. Is
breastfeeding itself takes a lot of work, you know, Like
I ignorantly thought, like my wife started breastfeeding is yo,
it's gonna be easy. It's what it's there for. And
then like you, as a spectator and an observer, it's like, yo,
that's that's not that's not easy. Like that's a lot
going on. But I don't know, Like my wife she

(27:37):
just she loves it absolutely like she she is, I mean,
she is a mama, like she loves I wasn't ready
for her to stop breastfeeding remy, you know when that stopped,
because like you know, you go back to that like
kind of just touch on what you were saying. And
one of the questions you had is like why, like

(28:02):
what do you love about women? Like what do you
like about women? And it has become very besides the obvious,
right like take out take out sex, everybody loves sex.
Is as a man, watching my wife feed, my feed
our child from the breast is one of the most

(28:24):
primarily satisfying things that I've ever been a part of.
Because it's like we all know, we're all doing a
thing here right, like you are feeding this baby not
just with substance, but with love and time. And I'm
and I'm watching you know, like I am the I

(28:45):
am the one that who would that would have to
address something that happened when this happened, because you are
the only one that can do this, right, Like we
touched on it like the first pod pink Job, blue job,
right like, and it's just so I love that about women.
I love the ability that like that that happens, and

(29:06):
like when you see it and you watch it, it's
like it's just a special a special thing that like
I can't do, you know, like it's just not I
don't have the I want to have the patience, you
know what I mean. And that's where it kind of
goes back to, like that you know the difference between
how we're all kind of like made up up and

(29:28):
here you know, it's like I think that with that
is fit. Sorry was tripping out about me breastfeeding and
like like learning to press me to like how would
I do that? Man? No, I forgot it doesn't say, but.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Yeah, I think I think it's that I think I
think biology is a and like you know, we are
the human is specifically unique, and that we've removed ourselves
from most of what nature dictates for living organisms, you know,
like and we've done that with our consciousness difference, and

(30:06):
like you know, we have the we have this space
and the freedom to allow for like you know, if
if if people are you know, if reproduction is just
for or if sex is just for reproduction, which it's
obviously not, you know, then like it doesn't matter who

(30:32):
fucks who or like who gets pleasure from who, It
matters if like something is affecting our our genetics to
where like not enough people are pro creating, you know,
then like the human race dies out. But like maybe
that was supposed to happen for the balance of nature
because we're not as removed from the giant ecological balance

(30:56):
that we think we are, you know, and like we
have a lot of arrogant about it, like we are
we are like the most impactful species on this planet
and like man, well then to go with that too.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Is the arrogance of it is the the arrogance that
comes with science, right of like out of all of
all of the creatures that procreate, right, like most of them.
It's like you have man or you know, you're male,

(31:31):
and you have female and they procreate. And now we
have now with the ability of science and I'm not
I'm not trying to I'm not shitting on science, is
we have the ability for people that want to transition
to allow them to live their life as who they
feel that they are. My mind gets kind of squarely
when it's like, well, this has just always been there's

(31:53):
always been this. It's never it's never just been you know,
man and woman. It's always been this fluid thing. When
it's like, man, well, is it like that for all
of them, every species, every you know what I mean,
every single species, it's just like this fluid thing.

Speaker 4 (32:10):
Like turns out the answer is yes for every I mean,
I'm not gonna say for every species, but like, definitely,
there are a lot of gay birds in the world.
There are fish that can change their sex, meaning like
which sex sell they.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Produce to pro create, to procreate.

Speaker 4 (32:29):
Yeah, there are documented instances of lions, female lions growing
a main and starting to like roar like males and
helting other females.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
Like turns out, it's really biology.

Speaker 4 (32:40):
Is really messy and complicated, and sex and procreation and
sex for pleasure among animals is all like.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
Messy.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Well that's what I've read or listened or heard or
some shit about how there's not many animals that have
sex purely for pleasure, Like there's there's not obviously we
are one of them, like monkeys and dolphins, I think
are the other ones that I remember hearing. But like,
I don't know, I just the I think at times

(33:15):
it can be arrogant as humans to think that like
just because we're doing it, that this is just a
way that it is, like this is just how things
have always been when like I don't sh man, I
don't know. I guess that's why I guess we're having
this conversation. You know, it's like to get a little
bit more insight to to that because again, like my

(33:37):
my world's not built with trans people, you know what
I mean? Like this not like I more more so
now than ever, right with with just yourself, you know,
shout out no one. Yeah, I don't know, man, it's
it's pretty, it's fun.

Speaker 4 (34:00):
Yeah, I mean I think I would say a few things.
I want to go way back real quick to what
you were saying about, Like, when you're born, you either
have a penis and there for your boy, or you
have a vagina and there for your girl. And I think,
like thing number one, like this is a question about
intersex conditions more than it's a question about being trans.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
But what is intersect what is that?

Speaker 4 (34:22):
Intersex is like a catch all word that is used
medically to talk about people whose bodies fall in between
what we generally consider to be a man's body or
a woman's body.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
So this could be like I will say I am.

Speaker 4 (34:34):
Not intersex, and I don't keep up super close with
like the legal and medical stuff about it, but from
what I've read, like when you're born, if if your
penis is smaller than one centimeter, you're like not your
non standard right, and so that would could get classified
as an intersex condition or like and there's a similar
metric for the vagina, right, And doctors can have the

(34:57):
legal authority to choose and do surge on infants to
like correct these perceived defects on their genitalia to say like, oh,
like this one was like supposed to be a girl,
but the vagina is not really deep enough. So we're
going to fix it surgically, which a lot of people
think is really inappropriate, right because they're doing essentially like
non consensual cosmetic surgery on infants, and stuff like circumcision

(35:21):
also gets wrapped into this conversation, right, like why are
we doing surgery on literal infants at.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
All unless they're about to die?

Speaker 2 (35:29):
Right?

Speaker 4 (35:30):
And then there are other ways that you can be intersex,
like polycystic ovarian syndrome. Some people consider it be an
intersex condition, which is where you get systs on your
ovaries that affect hormone production. And a lot of women
or people with pcos get like facial hair and have
persistent acn or like their voice might drop right like
a boys does it puberty? That's Q could consider that
an intersex condition. All of which is to say, like, yes,

(35:55):
we do classify infants into boys and girls based on genitalia.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
Sometimes there's surgery involved. I would say there probably shouldn't be.
Is that what is being born with a penis what
makes you a boy?

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Mm?

Speaker 1 (36:08):
And there's and there's people who are born with both
sex organs? Is that true? Er rarer and like the
spectrum of like say like something like clitterist size, like
you know, because the nerve ending wise, the clitterists and
the penis are the same organ Like if if a
clitterist is like over three inches, is that a penis?

(36:31):
You know, I'm not sure, but yeah, and then that
and and like the tricky thing about a lot of
these conversations seems to me like jumping between like this,
the medical system's opinion societally, what we're taught culturally, what
our norms are. Like there's so you can it's like

(36:52):
a metaverse of like perspectives of where we're coming at
this from. And like do I think that kids should
have any type of surgery? No, like when they're when
they're babies.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
Like unless like you said, life threatening, right.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not circumcised my boys aren't, you know.
Like for me that was like, well that seems like
there's no medical reason too. The only reason is like,
well because the dad is or like because that's what
we tend to do, Like.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, we did that. I've got three sons. My older
sons cato all circumcised. I'm circumcised. My brothers are circumcised.
And then when me and Sarah actually had the conversation
like actually had a conversation.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
About what he was like, yo, do so wait, why
do we do this?

Speaker 3 (37:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (37:41):
Why do we do this? And I remember asking, I
remember asking Sarah, like did someone do when someone was uncircumcised?
Did that ever stop you from moving forward with them intimidately?
She's like no, and I was like, well done, done,
We're not doing it, you know, like it just seems it's.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Like a tiny extra step of like, hey, man, pull
your foreskin back and clean your penis in the shower
like easy, you know, like for sure, don't skip like
And I guess maybe that's where the fear of like,
because I've had friends who have been like, well I
want I want their penises to look like mine, like
and like, A, that's weird. Yeah, B Like I think
what you probably mean is like you didn't grow up

(38:20):
with an uncircumcised penis, so you're like, maybe I won't
know how to teach them blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Correctly, I just we just had that conversation with our
doctor because you know, RA went over he had a
little doctor and I was like, man, did they did
the doctor pull back the foreskin to clean She's like no,
and I was like, well, shit, all I remember as
a kid was like my older brother, that's what you
fucking do? Yeah, you know, And then talking with Remy's like, shit, dude,
I don't know man, Like I have no idea what

(38:46):
I'm doing here, Like you you got to help me with.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
This, like so like swinging back into societal genderal norm stuff,
like like clearly there's differences of like it what it
means to you to present as masculine, you know, like
whether it's clothing or facial hair or whatever, Like where

(39:12):
for you does it? Where do you find where? Like Okay,
I know that visually I want to present this way
that's coded more masculine, but like where does that end
in your say, those societal values or gender roles that
you ascribe to or don't.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
Great question.

Speaker 4 (39:31):
It makes me think about being a teenager and like
it's effectively being like a butcher lesbian. I mean I wasn't,
but that's like if you picture like a sixteen year
old baby butch, like that's what I looked like. And
it was always challenging for me to like the masculine
presentation on top of a girl's body or like a

(39:53):
young woman's body is like that's a specific type of
way to exist in the world, right, Like you can't
have your gendered expression in a way that is separate
from your body and what like sex people perceive you
to be.

Speaker 3 (40:09):
So being like a sixteen year old boy dressing.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
Like I'm dressed now, Like I'm wearing cargo pants and
a flannel, right, that's like totally unremarkable.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
That's what boys wear.

Speaker 4 (40:18):
Being a sixteen year old girl wearing that is like noticeable,
and similarly for boys, right, like a sixteen year old
girl wearing like a tight shirt and a skirt. Whatever,
sixteen year old boy doing that, you better watch out, yeah, right,
especially where I grew up, and so I think getting
to the point of transitioning and even all the way

(40:39):
through to today knowing like when I'm walking into the
grocery store or down the street, like I as people's
eyes just like slide right over me, right, because I
look like any thirty year old guy anywhere in America basically,
And that is like kind of what I wanted. I
just wanted to be like regular, every day normal guy, right, and.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
Just feel normal and comfortable in that.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
Right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:06):
And part of it is like once I knew that
I was being read as a man, I got a
lot more comfortable with feminine clothing, right because so for me,
like the gender expression of how I comport myself and
what I wear is like ultimately less important than what
people are seeing, right, because it's like being seen as

(41:28):
like a feminine man. You're still being seen as a man,
and like that might be dangerous or risky or whatever,
or like when people think you're gay sometimes that's an
issue too, but like at the end of the day,
basically you're still being seen as a man.

Speaker 3 (41:41):
And so.

Speaker 4 (41:43):
I mean, you guys have seen me around this is
how I dress, but like, yeah, I don't know. I
mean I think about like I have like definitely been
to like gay bars and war in a skirt, or
like you go to Pride and you wear like a
tight tank top or a crop top or whatever.

Speaker 3 (41:54):
Like there are times and.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
Places where I dress differently and like a gendered cultural
Like I'm in queer spaces, so I'm gonna present myself
a little bit differently because in those spaces, I'm like
trying to get other trans people to notice me, right
in a way that like when I'm at the grocery
store at the end of a ten hour workday.

Speaker 3 (42:15):
I don't want anyone to notice it.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
For real, Do you have a like? Cause you're also
you also come off to me as a very educated
and smart person, Like biologically, what do you think the
like where do you think the line of like like
when when we all do stuff?

Speaker 2 (42:37):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (42:38):
Is it hormonal influence? Is it like mating pro You
know what I mean? Like a like like you say
you like dress a certain way because you want other
people to notice you, Like we all have different versions
of that, Like you know, I wanna I want to
hit the gym for the Look Better Naked program, or
I wanna I wanna like look good at a tank top,
you know what I mean? Like all all of that

(42:59):
has some percentage to do with biology, right, and some
percentage to do with like I guess just societal or
like what we where we get value stuff from? Do
you know what I'm trying to ask? Like what like
where where is the how much of presenting a certain

(43:21):
way is feels biologically right? Versus like this is what
a man is in society? So like this is where
I'm gonna get to.

Speaker 4 (43:34):
Yeah, when I started on hormones, I had done a
lot of research over a number of years on like
the kind of proto internet of the twenty tens, and
I thought I knew what to expect, right. I knew
that people felt better after getting on hormones.

Speaker 3 (43:54):
I knew I'd read every.

Speaker 4 (43:56):
Thing that I could find about, like it'll make you
start growing facial hair, like probably your period will stop
and your voice will change, and like you're essentially going
through like male puberty right when you start on testosterone
at the age of twenty three. So I had this
this list of like side effects basically, and I would
like look at this list and be like, okay, cool,
Like I don't really care if my voice changes, I
don't really care about growing a beard. Like all of

(44:18):
this is like fine to neutral to like great. I
would love to not menstru it anymore. That shit was
horrible forgot, So I thought I thought that that was
like the point, right, And then when I started on hormones,
what I had sort of failed to know or realize
was that I was just gonna feel better, right, Like

(44:40):
I was horribly depressed to the point where I was like,
I guess the world is just like horrible and everybody
deserves to suffer horribly for their entire life and like
that's just.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
What living is.

Speaker 4 (44:53):
And I felt better immediately. It was like a serious
like mood stabilizer for me to the point, to get
to your question of like I didn't give a shit
what other people thought of me. Like my job that
year was was public speaking to large groups, and I'm like,
my voice is changing, and my job is to project
to a hundred people standing in a field about bison

(45:16):
or whatever.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
So like shot, shout out bison.

Speaker 4 (45:19):
But you can imagine, right, think back to your voice
dropping right, like your squeaky, your voice is cracking left
and right. It's awkward, and like it would be really
easy to be hideously embarrassed if you were public speaking
in that environment. And I didn't give a shit because
I felt so good that.

Speaker 3 (45:36):
I didn't care. And so I think, like.

Speaker 4 (45:40):
For me, a lot of it, a lot of my
experience of transition was about hormones.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
Like I would say that I had a medical.

Speaker 4 (45:48):
Problem, a hormone deficiency that I am correcting with medication,
and like as a side effect, it turns out I'm
trans like sort of.

Speaker 3 (45:56):
Yeah, So I do think, like getting getting to the
point for people.

Speaker 4 (46:01):
In general, where like you are on the right meds,
or you're like your body's the right shape, or you're
like finally done with puberty. You're like now you have
a job and you don't live in poverty anymore. Like
all of this stuff works together to inform like who
you are, how you behave, how you present yourself to
the world, and what kind of people you want to attract, right,

(46:21):
which is a function of Like when I'm going out,
I think about where am I going? How do I
want to be? Like who else is going to be there?
What am I trying to do? Who am I going
to be in this space? And who else is there?
And like what is that going to look?

Speaker 2 (46:34):
Like?

Speaker 1 (46:34):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense? And you I mean you
got the top surgery bottom surgery as well.

Speaker 3 (46:43):
I had a hysterectomy, which is hysterectomy.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
Okay, so that's the removal of the yeah word. And
did that affect your like how to when you as
a I mean you're a man, you're a man more
or less more or less you mostly are attracted to
men or you have had relationships with men? And does

(47:08):
that sexual Like how does your physical body relate to
what you're understanding of like relationships or intimacy or like
or is there a certain because I what I what
I've heard is that there's like a kind of a
contingency of the gays who are like fuck trans people

(47:29):
because they're muddying the waters of like you feel what
I'm saying, Like there's yeah, there's a there's internal conflict
in the in the alphabet gang.

Speaker 4 (47:39):
Yeah, I mean like there is and there's not. Right,
those people can go fuck themselves.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah, because they're just assholes no matter what their orientation is.
They're just not good people, right.

Speaker 4 (47:48):
Yeah, if you are queer and you think trans people
don't belong in the community, get fucked.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
You can take that to the bank. Definitely, those people
do exist.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
They're probably louder on the internet that.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
Everyone is louder on the internet, right, I mean, yes,
for sure.

Speaker 4 (48:05):
I think it is really interesting to navigate the gay
men's community as a trans person.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
I am far from the only one.

Speaker 4 (48:17):
A lot of smart people have written and thought a
lot about it over the years.

Speaker 3 (48:24):
I think, like there are days where it kind of.

Speaker 4 (48:27):
Gets me down and like the societal perception of gay men,
both internally to the community and like externally in the world.
Is that like it's all about the penis, right, Like
gay men are obsessed with dicks, and like some of
that is just like bog standard homophobia. And also some

(48:48):
people have really reclaimed it and like wear it like
a badge of honor in the community, which is.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Probably a question of like is hyper sexualization of anything
a good idea?

Speaker 3 (49:00):
Right? Yeah, I think that's a good that's a good
lens to put it in.

Speaker 4 (49:04):
It's like that is just like hyper sexualization of people
and of body parts.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
Yeah, I don't. I mean if you look at like
if you took the body.

Speaker 4 (49:15):
Of every cis man meaning non trans man in the world,
like there's going to be as much variation in those
bodies as there is between like any given gay man
and me. Right, Like people are all kinds of shapes,
all kinds of sizes. Penises come in all kinds of
shapes and sizes.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
M so whatever. Yeah, at this point I feel good
about it. Like mostly I if.

Speaker 4 (49:42):
Like I were interested in somebody and they turned out
to have some kind of hang up about my body,
that's like an easy way for me to be.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
Like, Okay, you're not the person for me, You're not
the person for me, and I don't have time for this.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
Do I go ahead?

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Sorry? Do you like, do you run into a lot
in your dating life or have you that were like
you have that window of like when do I say
I'm a trans man? Or like when does you know,
like when you're just two humans trying to get to
know each other and decide if you enjoy spending time together.

(50:15):
Like you know what I'm saying, I.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
Got to come up pretty quick, right right, Like it's
gotta be a well.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
It probably depends on you know.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
Like definitely. Yeah, I mean shout out dating apps. It
makes it really easy.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
Oh yeah, yeah, say.

Speaker 4 (50:29):
On your Tinder profile trance and the assholes can weed
themselves out.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
Well that makes sense. Yeah, that's a different a different
world than ten fifteen years ago.

Speaker 4 (50:39):
Yeah, I would say, like mostly one time when I
was in grad school, I was seeing somebody who I
met like organically in class and they were non binary
or non binary, and we did have to have that
conversation because I fully assumed that they knew or had
like figured it out, and they had not, which was interesting.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
At that time. Did you look the way that you
do now more? Or less.

Speaker 4 (51:07):
Basically it was. I can't remember if we met right
before or right after I had top surgery. I think
it was before, but I was wearing a binder all
the time, like a chest binder, so you know whatever,
if you weren't in my room when I was changing,
you wouldn't necessarily know.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
But yeah, I mean basically, i'd been on hormones for
a couple of years.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
I had a beard at that point, I had more hair,
but otherwise, yeah, great.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
Beard by the way, Yeah, solid, better than most word.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Well, can I ask I don't know if you got
any like pressing things. I'm just trying to go with
where my my head is going and keep myself on
some sort of you know, not just wild'n out here?
Can I like, yeah, can I ask about, like what
is your personal opinion on like the way that kind

(52:01):
of the trans issue has been introduced to us culturally
and societally, it's it's kind of mostly been in the
lens of like do we allow trans people in sports?
Of whatever it is? And like where is the where
do the in the nuance in the shades of gray?
Where do the the systemic lines and policy lines land?

(52:25):
To make it more equitable or whatever it might be,
and I didn't really care about. I learned I'm the
only sport I watch is UFC or combat sports. I
don't don't watch any other sport consistently. So, like I
got introduced to the idea with Fallon Fox, who was
the MMA fighter who was a born a man, transitioned

(52:49):
later and fought as a female and like retained some
of those biological differences, whether it was like bone thickness
or must you know, whatever those markers are that people
always bring up in this conversation and like maybe those
are not always accurate. Maybe there is a spectrum of that,
but like Fallon Fox was big as shit and was

(53:09):
beating the shit out of you know people, and like that,
I was like, ooh, Like if there is a spectrum
of biological differences that present as stronger or thicker bones
or whatever, it might be, Like I don't know if
they should be allowed to beat the shit out of
people who are the.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
You know, it seems like And I don't know, because
we had this conversation with the open you know where,
like I didn't even connect the dots on that one,
you know of like, hey, well I've got to register
I've got to put you know, to do the open.
It was like male or female, right, there's for men,
there's ours for women.

Speaker 4 (53:49):
And more specifically, CrossFit Corporate has a specific policy that
you are required to compete in the division of your
sense assigned at birth. So it's not just that they
have men's and women's. It's that I would have been
quite by policy.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
And that's why you and that's why you didn't participate,
which I again, I respect the hell out of you
for that because like you still showed up and cheered
us on, you know what I mean. And it's like,
because you're an avid. I mean, you're you're disciplined, you're consistent,
like you you are training probably five days a week,
I would imagine, but maybe six like with with all
your running and strength training and everything. And and that's

(54:23):
where I think in sport, really, I think that's where
it mattersh And like you said, because like you and
you see it across the board, and it's and it's
one way like or maybe I haven't seen where a
born woman transitions to a man and then now as

(54:48):
a man goes into male sports and just like dismantles
the group. I see it the other way, where a
born man transition to a woman and then they compete
against other women and it's just like whoa.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
What I'm gonna jump in on this, ye please?

Speaker 4 (55:09):
Thing number one, There's never gonna be a good rule
one size fits all. There are always going to be exceptions,
there are always gonna be issues. Different sports have different
benchmarks for what's important.

Speaker 3 (55:21):
This is always to.

Speaker 4 (55:23):
Some extent, going to have to be on a case
by case or at least like a sport by sport,
league by league basis.

Speaker 3 (55:29):
Thing number two.

Speaker 4 (55:30):
This is why we have stuff like weight classes, thinking
about fighting right and wrestling like you're not just going
ham on anybody like we do often try to match
up people or teams that are like a reasonably similar
standard so that everybody has a good time and you
have a game that's like worth watching or fight is
actually interesting.

Speaker 3 (55:49):
Thing number three.

Speaker 4 (55:51):
I'm not going to in any particular order here, but
like thing number three, it is true that men are
on average bigger, taller, stronger than women on average. If
you look at the full spectrum of all of humanity,
there's complete statistical overlap between like the smallest men and
women and the biggest men and women. So like point being,
some people do have natural advantages, right, Like Michael Phelps

(56:15):
as a swimmer is a great example, Like he's disproportionate, right,
his wingspan is longer than it should be for his height.
Therefore he wins the shit out of everything he ever does.
So should we disqualify him because he has a natural advantage?
I don't think So That's part of what makes it interesting.
And so I think like another element of this that
often comes up is that the rules that people try

(56:39):
to write to exclude trans women that say, like your
testosterone has to be whatever below a certain level, or
like you can't be this tall or you can't be
this strong, that's wild.

Speaker 3 (56:48):
Those rules disproportionately.

Speaker 4 (56:50):
Exclude black women, right, So, like there are other issues
that you're wrapped up in this stuff, as well as
intersex people who might not even know that they have
an intersex can castor Semenya, who I think is an
Olympic sprinter. I think from a couple of years ago,
like keeps getting disqualified from stuff because like she was
assigned female at birth, lived her entire life as a woman,

(57:11):
was winning her events left and right by like a
serious margin and so she was required to get to
genetic testing or some hormone testing done, and it turns
out she has an intersex condition that she didn't know about,
and now she's disqualified.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
That doesn't seem fair.

Speaker 4 (57:26):
No, she's a woman, she's assigned female at birth, and
she's a woman, and we're just qualifying her because she
has a medical condition.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
I'm not into that.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
Yeah, with sport, it gets interesting because like people fucking cheat, right,
you know, people cheat, and you add a little extra
testosterone during training, just hoostum helps with the healing and
it helps them both of your muscles grow, it helps
them rehab. Like people will do silly things to win
a prize. Yeah, you know, and that's I.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Think that's probably the same as the dating thing, like
some people are assholes.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah,
it's That's really the only one I can think of, Boort.
It's just kind of like, yeah, where do you When
does it matter? You know, like when does it actually
matter what the fuck someone wants to be? You know
what I mean? Like I'm you know, I'm a I'm

(58:18):
a man, I'm a woman, Like it fucking doesn't matter, man,
like I was talking with people at Calvary at my
church and I was like, yeah, I'm having this transdudent
on the pod and it just turns into a conversation
that like I don't know, I mean, yeah, the Christians,
I mean any like religion itself, not to get into that,
but it was just like, well, you know that they're

(58:40):
not a man. And I was like, Eh, I don't know,
Owen's a dude.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
What are your metrics exactly?

Speaker 2 (58:48):
You know what I mean? Where it's like do you
walk around and like check everybody, you know what I mean,
Like if you come up to me, you present yourself
as a man, like I'm going to treat you, you
know what I mean, Like I'm gonna treat you kindly
no matter what. But like you know, I don't usually
call too many women dude. I mean I do, but

(59:09):
like usually it's like, you know, not not dude, you know.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
But it's that probably goes back to like culturally as Americans,
we don't have the long history of anything because we're
a baby country, but like, yeah, the cultures that have
long had, whether it's Polynesian, you know, like Hawaiian or
a lot of indigenous Native American, Like, there's tons of
cultures who actually probably revere a lot of times the

(59:38):
intersects or the the two spirits or you know whatever.
Like we just culturally have had such a pilgrim repression
oppression based culture that like we're like still getting used
to like, oh maybe it's not black and white going
to heaven or going to hell, like you know what

(59:59):
I mean, We're still we're back.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
To the like the Polynesians and there and the Natives.
I think there was very very I don't want to
say strict, but there was very dedicated roles within the
men and the women. And not that they didn't interact,
but I think you had more. I think when you

(01:00:21):
touch on like true masculinity, like what it means to
be a man, I think that inevitably opens up feminine
because if you are the man's man, if you are
a life taker, right, you are the one that's put
to task to keep the wolves up bay, and you
are taking life, you realize how precious life is, and

(01:00:45):
that has to that opens up a part of you
that we in our society and culture don't have anymore, right, Like,
is there there's no value on life because we don't
see the end of life right where. I think with
those cultures you became more bonded with your partner, with

(01:01:06):
your children, with your child, with the people of your community.
But I think it was still very very much role orientated,
you know, and most most of the role and hard
work going to the women.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Men would hunt, and they would they would hunt, and
they would do security, right like you know, the the natives.
The women's are the ones that carried all the firewood,
They carried all the teepees. It was their responsibility to
break down and put together camp, right like men just
for the most part, you know, the able bodied men

(01:01:42):
or the military aged men. They were the ones that
were either hunting on a war party or they were
doing a front and follow type of escort with the
women and the children and the elderly and firm in
the middle, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:01:56):
And I think it's worth saying that in many cultures
there also are specific culturally defined roles for trans people.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Really tell me more.

Speaker 4 (01:02:07):
Yeah, I mean, I I am not the person to
ask for details about this, but if you look up,
I mean, like third gender is a good spot to start.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
If you're looking around.

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
Online, it's it's more common from the casual internet research
that I've done for there to be specific cultural roles
for trans women, right, men who transition to female.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:02:29):
Why that is, but but many cultures have specific roles
for those.

Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
People India for sure, and a lot of them tend
towards the shamanic or the religious, like you know, like
these people have a broader perspective and are tapped into
different shit, and like we should honor their perspectives deep yeah,

(01:02:55):
and then and then then how much of like I'm like,
undoubtedly there's gray area in even in those tribal type
old older societies, like not every not every boy is
fit to run down an elk or whatever the fuck,
you know, like maybe they're like, oh, like Tommy is

(01:03:16):
better at weaving baskets, Like he's real, real good at dexterity.
Like there was undoubtedly swing between that, but like, yeah,
there does seem to be like biologically influenced gender roles
that occurred for a reason when people were in danger.
More like we're not in danger daily, like you know

(01:03:40):
what I mean, Like like a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
In the world's changed in the last two hundred years. Yeah,
like a lot, and some people call it progress, you
know what I mean, Like some some people don't, you know,
like there's and I don't know, I'm I'm on the
fence on that, Like I mean, we do, we do
live great, that's great to be sitting here. But it
also I think a lot of it a lot of

(01:04:05):
a lot of time as us, like rethinking things and
redoing things that like I don't know, man, like a
lot of it doesn't even really matter, you know, like
it really doesn't matter. Like are you cool?

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Ye?

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Are you a kind person? Do you try to think
about the people around you? Do you do you try
to bring value to your community doing doing something, doing anything?
You know, like it doesn't have to be you know,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Well that was my I was talking to my wife
about this the other day and we were talking about
trans folks in sports, and like I was asking her
what her opinion one was, and she was like, well,
you know me, I think sports are fucking stupid. So
I think sports don't matter at all. So I don't
think trans people in sports matters either, because like, at

(01:04:56):
the end of the day, if shit hits the fan
and everything collapses, is like I don't care if you
can dribble a basketball? Like what can you can you
like desalinate water, you know, like can you do something useful?
You know? And I was like, Okay, We're like that's
a pretty extreme, like you know, we're not We're not
in that reality right now. You know, maybe we're getting there.

(01:05:18):
But I was like, but I think the relevance and
the importance of it more is like what are we
what do we have to let go of societally and
culturally as far as these binaries or these different things,
And what are the kids who are growing up now

(01:05:38):
learning and seeing as far because I get the sense
that like teenagers now are like middle aged middle school kids,
like they don't give a shit like what you present as,
who you like, who you're attracted to, Like they're just
like cool man whatever, Like are you an asshole? Like
you know, it seems like there's way less of that
type of division and bullying and like everyone's gonna get

(01:06:00):
bellied or something. But like it seems like they're they're
way more broad about what they're like, yeah, cool, like
you know, this is normal, which then gets me to
another question that I feel like a lot of the
the hubbub in the cultural societal world is like, what
age should kids be introduced to, you know, hormones or

(01:06:25):
things that will cause irreversible changes that they may regret
or they may you know, like what And I bet
the answer is similar to sports, Like it's probably contextual
and it's probably based on case by case.

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
Definitely. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:06:39):
I have been thinking a lot about this because I
knew that this question was going to come up.

Speaker 3 (01:06:43):
So the first thing I would say is there is good, solid.

Speaker 4 (01:06:46):
Medical science about all of this, and if you like
you and trust your doctor, you should ask your doctor and.

Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
Do what they say.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
And if you don't, and if you.

Speaker 3 (01:06:53):
Don't, you should get a different doctor that you do.

Speaker 4 (01:06:55):
Like, you know, people, There's been a lot of talk
about pubertyole blockers, right, which are are hormone blockers basically
that you can give to kids to delay the onset
of puberty. These were developed for CIS children with precocious puberty,
right like children who are entering puberty the age of
like seven or eight. Puberty blockers were invented for them,

(01:07:16):
not for trans people.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
They give they give them to sex offenders. They would
give them to like pretty common they're they would. Yeah,
they call it chemically castrating where like you, yeah, I mean,
there was numerous guys. Like when they shut down McNeil Island,
which was the basically Washington States, it ended up becoming

(01:07:41):
basically a civil commitment center for people that had served
their sentence but were not fit to be released out
into the public. And most of the ones that were
civilly committed there were were violent sex offenders, were monsters,
and that's what they would They would chemically castrate them

(01:08:02):
where it would just like nuke. And I don't know,
I'd heard that they're the same cocktail of medications for
the puberty blockers and that they would give to the
sex offenders to basically completely remove their their urge for
their libido to want to do these crimes.

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
It makes sense it would be similar.

Speaker 4 (01:08:28):
Hormones are complicated, but also there are only so many
of them, so yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
Yeah, it's just interesting because like, yeah, I mean, are
they reversible?

Speaker 3 (01:08:39):
I mean, and I don't puberty.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
Blockers are totally reversible, And that is the point, right, Like,
if you have a kid who's starting puberty at the
age of like six or seven, you put them on
it for a couple of years, take them off, and
they're like twelve and they proceed with puberty normally.

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
That is, that's what happens.

Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
That is the purpose and the point of those drugs.

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
What's the canina, what's the like what do they say
is the reason for not wanting precocious puberty? Like, I mean,
I could imagine, but like what's the official story of
like kids shouldn't go through puberty at seven? Because big question?

Speaker 4 (01:09:10):
I think, I mean, it's not typical, right, And I
think often the I'm speculating a little bit, but I
think that from from what I have seen, like the
science sort of indicates that it's probably happening because of
like hormonal stuff like or like environmental stuff is what
I mean, like hormones in the water, or like too
many microplastics and shit like that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
So it's like it's it's I don't know, like it
is just like a medical concern for some reason.

Speaker 4 (01:09:33):
I'm not a doctor, sure know, but you know, you
know people humans are go through puberty at like twelve
to fourteen for a couple of years and then we're adults.
And so I think that's like we're trying to keep
with puberty blockers. We're trying to like keep people kind
of on that schedule more or less, right, Yeah, And
then I think, like to get back to the question

(01:09:54):
of like when should kids be introduced to some of
this stuff like precocious puberty aside, Like if you are
a and you want to transition, what that means, Like
what it would have meant for me? It is like
I'm going to keep my hair short at school and
like use a different name and that's literally it, right,
and like that is reversible. It turns out, yeah, you
could wear your hair back out and go back to.

Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
Using your regular name.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 4 (01:10:17):
So that's like, you know, I am not a parent,
I'll say that upfront, but like it seems to me
that children should be allowed to do things like that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:10:25):
It's like you play pretend that you're a horse all
afternoon and you are going to go to school and
your name is Billy, Like great, who cares? Right, Like
who cares? Most kids are not going to end up
being trans just statistically, so like they'll do that for
a week or a year or whatever, and then they'll
be like, Okay, actually my name is Sally again, and
you're like okay, whatever, Like great, now you're nine. So okay,

(01:10:49):
but for the kids who are trans that's going to
make a really big difference. Right, And so allowing kids
to do things like social that look like social transition
or that are social trans I think is really important
because it will spare people years of heartache potentially.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
Yeah, just mental health crisis. Yeah yeah, I mean you
read about it and hear about it on wherever you
get your your media about children that, like younger and
younger are starting to take their own lives and it's
it's really sad. And if you can be a good
parent and be a good dad by I don't know,

(01:11:28):
like your kid wants to do. I don't know what's
a I don't know, theater right, Like you got I
got four sons and one of them is like, he's
going to act. Man, he wants to he wants to
be in theater. I mean he he's funny, man, Like,
he's really into it. And if that's what you want

(01:11:49):
to do, I don't give you play sports or not.
You know, like you just be cool, you know, do
what makes you happy. And then to think about the
kids that might want to do something like that, their
parents are like, no, we play ball here, right, right,
We play ball or we fight, you know, and it's.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
Like, well that's that early programming, like don't let them,
don't let the boy wear the pink clothes. Yeah, they
play with trucks and dinosaurs like that, do they do?
They gravitate nashally towards that, sure sometimes like yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's one of those cultural programming things that I feel
like is being pretty phased out, like pretty you know, hopefully.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
But then there's also there. I mean there's some you know,
speaking as a dad like them dad's hold hold type
man like your kid, you know, you want to live
through your kid, you know what I mean, Like he
is a representation of me. Oh, he ain't gonna be
doing no funny ship, no queer ship, you know what
I mean. He can't even be seen with that when
it's like, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:12:46):
Like the same same manser Like those are the assholes.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Yeah, exactly. Those Those are the assholes that that get
the voice, you know, they get they get the speaker box,
you know, to let people know that they should.

Speaker 4 (01:13:00):
Like one of my hot takes is I mostly think
that like either your trans or you're not, Either you're
gay or you're not, And I like it does change
for people over the course of your lives, and people
are more or less comfortable with it, or it shows
up with different ways as you age or whatever. But
like point being, if your kid is trans, your kid

(01:13:20):
is trans, right, and so like trying to repress that
isn't going to work. But also the hot take part
is I think that parents, adults have an ethical obligation
to inform children that it's a thing that, like you
could be trans. Trans people exist, and here's what that means.
Because if your kid is not trans, great now they're
better informed about the variety of humans in the world.

(01:13:42):
And if your kid is trans, maybe now they're not
going to kill themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
Yeah, m m yeah, And that's a lot of it
with parenting though, it's just and it bugs a shit
out of me with parents when you see parents talk
to their children like they're fucking retarded, you know what
I mean, Like they just baby talk their kid when
it's like, yo, you just give your kid the information,
let them do what they want, like you said, they're like, oh, okay,

(01:14:09):
that's not me, you know, like I don't want to
do that, or you know what I mean. But if
you just shit on them and then wonder why they
don't talk to you, you know, like I don't know, Dad,
you should have, you know, sit down on the floor
with them for a little bit and figured it out.

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
And you run into the same risks of people being
bad parents on any issue, like you know what I mean,
Like the celebrities who suddenly are like all four of
my kids are trans and intersects and asexual, and like
sure maybe or like maybe you're a bad parent and
you're like capitalizing on normal stuff that they're going through

(01:14:51):
and like pushing them some way because you get clout
from this, like's that's damaging just as much as like
you have to be straight and you have to be
you know, you have to wear jeans and you know,
it's like all of that is just are you listening
to your kid? Do you have a relationship with your
kid that like they trust that if they bring up
their deepest soul issues to you're not gonna like not

(01:15:16):
gonna shame them. You're not gonna you know, it's like
and that and and and even in the course of parenting,
like the societally and culturally like that's still a new
thing too, Like we grow up in the fucking you know,
like I think what doctor Spock came out in the eighties,
like and like was a better model than our parents
got raised with, you know, but like not great you know,

(01:15:38):
and like where the pendulum always swings. We're trying to
be emotionally available, trying to teach all the stuff and
like still hold to the things that we believe in
and like yeah, it's just it's still try.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
To like lead a family, you know. Like which I
think to touch on that gender role I think is
a predominant. Like I think as a man that and
as a father, I think that that is my role
is to lead my family and not by force, not
by shaming or guilty or like threaten you know what

(01:16:13):
I mean, like threatening of my wife or my children.
But like you know, we are we are on a
mission as a family to to serve our community, to
do good things, to work hard. And I think when
when a decision has to be made, it might not
be the best practice. But like for me and my wife,

(01:16:33):
like man, we agree on a lot of things, but
there are certain things where it's like done, okay, your call, right,
and we just kind of use that as a way
to then facilitate with our with our sons, right, I mean,
we have a we were a daughter. Now that I'm
learning it's different, man, It's like, it's how is it different? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:16:58):
Expand on that it and.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
My wife and I were talking about it last night.

Speaker 3 (01:17:03):
Is my.

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
In her needing to protect her is different than it
was at the same stage of six weeks of all
my other children? Like with her, it's just it's just
such a sweet little, little, sweet little baby, you know,
it's just like she it's just different. Like where with

(01:17:31):
the little boys, it's like, oh, they're you know, they're
just they're just I don't know, different.

Speaker 1 (01:17:36):
Like how much of that do you think is like
that cultural programming or relating to like your own views
of like me as a man, I don't feel like
I need to be coddled or protected or maybe and
I don't know, I feel like I remember you saying
when you grew up, it's not like your dad was.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
I grew up. I grew up with and I grew
up with two brothers outside the home. You know, we
were we were on the street like all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:18:10):
So probably not a lot of like a you know,
like xerotess.

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
And like and I know and that's where now as
this new evolution of me as a father, even pre sochi,
which is with like my Cato and Remy, Like, I'm
a different father now than I was when I was
twenty five, you know, having twins, and I think a

(01:18:33):
lot of it has to do with that. But then
it's like you have that feeling like we're just feels different, right,
Like I'm looking at her and we are imprinted, man,
like I brought her into this world like it wasn't
a doctor, like it was it was my wife, two
little guys here and I like, you know, and as

(01:18:54):
soon as she came out, we locked eyes and like
and now that's when I'm looking at her and holding
her like it's you have that you know what it
is when you were looking at your kid and like
words are being spoken right, Like it's not just like,
oh she's so cute like things there there is a
correspondence happening between me and her, and just like with

(01:19:18):
normal people, right like when you're talking with someone, like
you know when there's when things are happening back and forth,
and yeah, it's just different with her, man, It's just
like a different it's a different need to fulfill right, Like,
I mean I just can't get enough of her, you know,
like I just I.

Speaker 1 (01:19:38):
Guess, Yeah, I guess I'm asking because I only I
have my boys. Yeah, but what I imagine is like it
it doesn't make a difference until puberty, you know, Like
like I I would treat them the same way in
my head in that like my precious tiny babies are

(01:20:00):
are still my personal tiny babies. If I had a daughter,
I would still like be boxing and wrestling and like.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
But it's different. Like like my wife and I were talking,
like what we want to do, Like what is our
goal with raising and soci and having soci and it's
universal and it's.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
Like she are.

Speaker 2 (01:20:22):
My goal as her father is to help her understand
her value. Yeah, like she has something that the entire
world wants to take and.

Speaker 1 (01:20:34):
Feels was that what do what does that mean?

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
Well? Just as a woman, right, women become sexualized like
that is their their their value comes in that. And
as as a father, my goal is going to be
to instill in her a sense of self and value
that like you don't just give yourself away, right, Like

(01:21:00):
you don't have to follow these social norms of being
sexually active at a young age, right, like falling into
this group mentality of being where if I can help
raise her in a way that she doesn't need that

(01:21:21):
validation from her peers or from from the world, where
she knows that she is she's the most powerful thing
that's ever happened, right, Like she has the ability to
change the world. Right, Like that's small.

Speaker 1 (01:21:39):
Two things that are that are popping up and that
I want to hear from you lived as a woman
before that that makes me think of like don't you
feel like you are starting the hypersexualization with just introducing
the fact that, like you have something that everyone wants
to take.

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):
But I think it's about not not hyper sexual like
not having these conversations with her about sex, but just
empowering her to know and then giving her the tools
that like you and again I don't know because I've
never had a come from boys, but giving her the idea,

(01:22:20):
in the in the power to know that like this
is the reality of our world period, this is this
is how our society is set up. Now, it's not
going to get any less sexualized. Right, So if if
you and I build this relationship son son son son

(01:22:42):
to father, you know, daughter to father, where you trust
what I say and you and you take it into
consideration in your day to day life. Here are things that,
like I think will give you the best ability to
set yourself up and set yourself apart from the from
the noise and the norm being the eighty percent of

(01:23:03):
people that are on medication, and you know what I mean,
like separate yourself because you don't need these people to
validate you are.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
So you're kind of talking about teaching them to be
critical thinkers and to follow their own things versus like,
don't place value on what society is telling is okay,
this is like when I was in high school, another
one of those ping moments for me was we walked
into class and the teacher had written she had she

(01:23:35):
put a line on the board and she wrote, I
slept with four hundred women on my way to the top.
And then like I slept with four hundred men on
my way to the top, and like.

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
Didn't you know, like.

Speaker 1 (01:23:46):
Let us sit with that for a while, and then
she was like the point of this is like what
are your instinctive reactions like? And most of us was like, oh,
this dude's a pimp, Like he's a player and like ooh,
this girl's a slut, Like yeah, you know, and like
the kind of ingrained gender value system stuff like color
a lot of things that we when I think, what

(01:24:09):
you're talking about is getting down to being a good person,
being an independent thinker, being someone who doesn't just follow like,
you know, the the societal norms. And I think, what,
like what I if because I was we were kind
of hoping we would have a daughter with this fourth one,

(01:24:29):
but our third one, but we're not. But like my
thought of like what would be like being a dad
to a daughter or a girl is like feels the same.
Like I don't want to get into that thing of
like if if a key opens one hundred locks, it's
a master key, like, but if one hundred keys can

(01:24:51):
open a lock, that's a shitty lock. You know, like
that kind of societal stuff. You probably have different insight.

Speaker 4 (01:25:01):
Yeah, I mean I think I first would go back
to what Kevin was saying and say, like it is
true that women and girls are sexualized by men, right,
Like it doesn't just happen, it is done to them
by men and boys, and so my my, I'm like
kind of pointing that out. And also my question is
what are you teaching your sons about that?

Speaker 2 (01:25:25):
Oh? Good one I got because I got seventeen year
old boys and a six and four year old. Yeah,
what am I teaching my boys about? Seventeen year olds?
You can't teach them shit, I mean, sadly, it's it
goes back to what they what they saw, right, what

(01:25:48):
they heard, and I I just want them to be kind,
you know what I mean? But then again, like, you know,
you got good looking seventeen year old dude, you know
what I mean in a world where instant gratification is
the norm, where detachment is the norm. Like, my heart

(01:26:10):
goes out to them. Man, I don't know how this
plays out for not just my son's but this whole
generation and in the generations below them, that all they
have ever known is internet. Right, everything you've ever wanted
is right at your fingertips all the time. And I

(01:26:32):
remember having conversations with them when they started be getting
sexually active of like, yeah, and obviously use protection do
this thing, but they're like, how do you how do
you take the importance of sex and make it important again? Right?

(01:26:54):
Where like when you were having sex with someone it
is an intimate one on one you were in theory,
you're gonna you're gonna reach another place out of this planet, right,
I mean it is it is a very intense situation
where talking to a bucking seventeen year old about that,

(01:27:17):
it's like, no, man, it's just we're scratching an itch,
is what's happening, right, And then having trying to have
my kids like just learn to I don't know, be
mindful and thoughtful of other people, which is which is hard, right,

(01:27:38):
like especially like if you're if you're not, And I
say that with like being aware of it. Some people
aren't aren't even aware of other people in their space, right,
They're just like going going down the straight line. I
have to do this. I have to do that. And

(01:27:58):
I think trying to trying to be that for them
of someone where they see like oh, Dad's like Dad's
always you know, he's doing this, or he's asking, you know,
how this person is. He's checking in on this person,
like he's giving himself to the world to try to be,

(01:28:19):
you know, a beacon of light, to try to build
this community and bring what I can bring to everybody.
And then in the hopes that like they can see
like that's just like who you are instead of like
the person that's like constantly having to like move jobs
or move locations because like you're a fucking asshole and

(01:28:39):
people find out that you're an asshole and the don't
want to be around you anymore, so then you have
to leave. Or like you're the victim all the time, right,
Like oh, such and such happened to me, you know,
and just painting that like I don't know that win
loss type of situation in life. That's not really I
don't know, I don't think. I don't look at it

(01:29:01):
like that, but like, you know, it's it's happens.

Speaker 1 (01:29:06):
If it felt like I felt like you were asking
more like that question of like should we spend a
lot of energy teaching girls how to not get raped
or like teaching boys to not rape you know, like
and I mean this in the context of like with
with my kids at home, like we talk a ton

(01:29:28):
about consent and body boundaries and being respectful of when
like even if you guys are rough housing, even if
you guys have consented to engage in physical play, like
if someone decides that they're done at a point, like
then you're done, you know, Like you don't continue to
do what you wanted to do because you got hyped
up in the you know, in the in the mix,

(01:29:50):
like and and that is easily translatable as far as
if they start, you know, and you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:58):
Feel the need to do that with just when they're fighting.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):
Definitely, just because it's relatable to when they go through puberty,
like if they don't understand body boundaries of or if
they don't understand that consent can change. Like you know,
like fighting with your brother, if you guys are like, okay,
we're in rough house time, and like we set out
the ground rules, and the ground rules are like, you know,

(01:30:24):
don't bite him, don't you know, Like we're like we're
rough housing and we're physically playing. But like if you
kick him in the nuts, like you're in a real fight.

Speaker 2 (01:30:34):
It's time.

Speaker 1 (01:30:35):
No, it means like you're like, if you kick someone
in the nuts, you're fighting with them. You're not playing
with them, you know. And like if your brother says yeah,
I'm ready, I'm game, and you're going, and then he says, hey,
I don't like this anymore. I'm done, Like then you're done,
you know, like we're done here. And it's the same
as far as we just.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):
Let them scrap, you know. And then but then like
when one of them is hurt, you know, they're I mean,
they're not psychopaths, Like they're gonna stop fighting, right because
then you have to like, Okay, I'm done, I'm done.
I'm done. Yeah, you know, right back yet. And it's like, yo,
don't do that. Don't don't be that dude. Like, if

(01:31:16):
it's done, it's done. Like, don't say you're done just
because you're not in a dominant position.

Speaker 1 (01:31:21):
You know that, And that contextually is the conversation of
like there is a huge difference. I just had this
talk with them the other day. I was like, I
was like, you can't. I was wrestling with my five
year old and he kept being like, no, stop, you know,
and like, yeah, like the rule is like if you
say stop, I'm gonna stop what I'm doing. But like
if you're saying stop just to get out of the
position you were in to then try to continue to

(01:31:43):
rough house me, like that's not happening. That's not what
we're doing here.

Speaker 2 (01:31:47):
Like but and then know that, and you know that
when that's happening, and that's where that's where for me.
I just I don't. I don't want to go under
the dear that like I have to like teach my
kids not to rape, you know what I mean. Yeah,

(01:32:07):
but I don't think I don't think that's an inherent thing.
I don't think that's the natural thing that happens. Now.
What I do think compounds that is when you when
we have given young boys no tool to not get
what they want, I mean from birth until forever, like

(01:32:31):
they are given whatever they want, like not not for
every child, not for not to broad struggle like that,
but for the most part, like we live a life
of comfort, entitlement, entitlement, Like our children get what they want,
like they get to watch what they want to watch, right,
they get to do what you know what I mean,
Like they don't have to wait for anything, and then

(01:32:54):
then forget about it. You add internet porn to it,
like and it's a rap. Right. It is devastating to
entire populations of people what that is doing to young
boys and then in turn to women, right, because it's
like it's changed the whole It's changed sex from what

(01:33:18):
what it's what it what it is to like to
a sport almost you know what I mean, Like it's
it's turned it into this competition for young boys, which
again it's not not progress in in my in my opinion,
but I don't know. I guess no one would think
it's progress.

Speaker 4 (01:33:38):
But yeah, I mostly I want to say, right off
the bat, like the girls are also watching internet porn, right, Like,
I do think this is an issue that disproportionately affects boys,
but it's not.

Speaker 3 (01:33:50):
It's not that it's happening to boys.

Speaker 4 (01:33:52):
And then secondarily therefore it's happening to the girls. They're
all watching porn. And I think that that is important knowledge.

Speaker 2 (01:34:02):
I'd never thought about that. I'd never thought about that
in my life.

Speaker 4 (01:34:05):
That I just yeah, yeah, like I don't I don't
think pornography. I do think that pornography is morally neutral, right,
Like it's not an objective bad by itself. I think
we could have we could talk for another hour and
a half about the nuances of that and you know,
the availability of the instant gratification. Mostly I'm with you

(01:34:26):
on all of that, And like sex is also morally neutral,
right Like, as you said way back at the beginning,
people like to have sex that includes teenagers, and like
that's been true for the entire history of the human
race forever. So I and I do think, like right,
giving people tools. I like what you're saying, Nate about
like we need to teach I do think we need

(01:34:47):
to teach kids about consent pretty specifically. And I think,
like we don't need to teach them not to rape
each other or other people, but like we do need
to teach them what to do right asking for consent?
How do you touch someone in a loving way? How
do you read people's body language to know when they
are done or don't like it or don't want to
Like those are lessons that all of us can benefit from. Yeah,

(01:35:10):
And I think, like with young boys and young men especially,
that's like that's not stuff that is culturally very.

Speaker 3 (01:35:16):
Masculine or valued very much in men.

Speaker 4 (01:35:19):
Like loving communication in men is like not a good
way to get ahead when you're fifteen, which makes it
very important I think for good parents and good fathers
to model that and to provide specific instruction in like
how to do it well.

Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
I have been I have to remind myself recently, like
now that my kids are stronger and more capable, like
I find myself having to be like, okay, like when
they come up and we're fighting or we're play fighting,
Like am I doing too much winning? Like like they

(01:36:03):
know that, like I'm bigger than them and I'm gonna
win if if we're you know, like I think they're
like they're not stupid, you know, like they know that
if if they fight dad, Dad's gonna kill them. But
when we're play fighting, if I'm what I try to
be conscious is like am I giving them enough of
a percentage of that fight where like they're cracking me

(01:36:27):
and I'm like I'm like making it seem like they're
strong and they're doing stuff and they're like they got
moves and like their moves are cool, and am I
doing too much? Like I'm gonna hold you down and
control you because I can because I'm much bigger than you,
and like they're not complaining about it, but like I'm
trying to gauge if like what they're learning is that

(01:36:48):
like just because I am bigger and stronger than you,
that I can do this at will, and like I
can because I am bigger and stronger than them. But
like I notice in my five year old, especially that
like he'll reach a point of frustration of like he's
not complaining that I'm like controlling him or manipulating his body,

(01:37:10):
but like he gets frustrated at a point where like
then I'm like as shit, like I need to let
him win more, Like I need to give him more.
I need to give him more empowerment of like you know,
I am bigger than you and stronger than you, and
I'm listening to you even though you're not asking me things,

(01:37:31):
which I think is what you're saying as far as
like reading body language or reading like what the outside
of like a sexually intimate thing, And like when I
think about like my my seven year old is my
cuddle buddy, you know, and like since he was born,
like he's been my like he'll I'll roll him over
and he'll nurse, but like we cuddle each other, and

(01:37:51):
like now he's you know, now he's got these long
legs that are like wrapping around me. And I'm like,
you know, I'm cuddling him every night of his life.
And like my wife was like, like when do we
stop like cuddling them to sleep? And I was like,
I think I get I guess like if they hit
puberty and then they're not gonna want to cuddle us

(01:38:12):
you know, so like I think we don't have to
really choose a point. I think that they'll naturally decide that,
like I need my own privacy, like you know, I'm
I'm like, you know, cause kids get boners since like
in the womb, you know, so like how we deal
with erections is like, uh, you got you got your
little baby boner on, like you know, you know, like

(01:38:33):
you're not hurt. You're like you're not. You don't have to,
you know, if you're gonna if you're gonna play with
it or mess around with it, like pop up to
your room like yeah, you know, but it's not like
you know, I did, Like I was like, does it
And this is one of the questions that you asked,
like how did you know you were attracted to women?
Or when or what point or like what attracts you

(01:38:54):
to women? And I was thinking about that and I
was like, well, like I don't know if it's I
guess I don't know how much is culturally programmed as
far as what I find attractive, but I know that
like I don't find like men have never like sexually
riled me up, you know, like I can appreciate like oh,

(01:39:16):
like that's a good looking dude. He has features that
are symmetrical, he's he looks nice, he presents well, like
you know, like I know what I find attractive in men,
but like there's never been like a a sexual piece
that's come up for that, and like that's definitely different
for women. You know, Like I can remember very early

(01:39:36):
on like feeling those that that extra level of like oh,
like I'm feeling something in my body was.

Speaker 2 (01:39:44):
Desperado.

Speaker 1 (01:39:46):
Well for me, it was my neighbor, Like, you know,
we would we would look at anatomy books and like
we described we didn't have the words for like horny,
you know, so we we use like levy, like because
like love is a strong emotion and like I guess
that's what people feel together. And we're like, oh, like
this feels like charged, you know, is what we were saying,

(01:40:07):
but like we're not. We don't we don't have the
context for it. And then like going to college and
having that, you know, my high school group was like
pretty we didn't really do a lot of like talking
about you know, feelings and shit. And in college, you know,
the fraternity I joined like had a lot of a

(01:40:29):
lot of gay dudes, a lot of dudes who are
trying to figure out what their sexuality was at that
point in their life as a nineteen twenty twenty one
year old and like being able to know or or
feel for me that like and I know what I'm into,
you know, I know what works for me, And like

(01:40:52):
does it matter that my brother over here that I
like just suffered through this hell week of like upholding
the tradition of the brotherhood and doing thing like all
that bullshit, Like do it does it matter to me
if they're like, oh man, I'm not sure if like
I'm gay or not, Like okay, cool, like figure that out,
you know, like it's I'm not gay, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:41:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:41:15):
And the first experience of that was my next door neighbor,
who was my one of my best friends because we're
next door neighbors. He was always kind of stereotypically. We
were like you're gay, Like you're gay, dude, Like, you know,
he was into ballet since he was a kid, and like,
obviously that's a stereotype, but like when he came I

(01:41:37):
was one of the first person people he came out to,
and he came out to me in kind of that
like we're like both horny teens. And he's like, don't
you ever just want to like get head or like
give head? And I was like, oh shit, like yeah,
I do want to get head, like I don't want
to give head. Like that's not been a feeling and

(01:41:57):
and like what he was saying to me was like, hey, man,
like I think I'm gay, and do you know if
you're gay or not? I was like, man, I'm not,
but like, doesn't you know I'm not. It didn't make
me feel like I'm offended by this, and I'm like,
you've made me feel like now I have to beat

(01:42:18):
you up.

Speaker 2 (01:42:19):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:42:20):
It made me feel like, oh shit, like you you are.
We're going through a similar thing as far as like
sitting here trying to watch scrambled porn on the TV,
you know, but like we're having different experiences of this, right,
you know. And like that was one of the earlier feelings.
And I must have been like ten, I don't know,
you know, so yeah, early I remember feeling like women

(01:42:46):
make me feel a certain way.

Speaker 4 (01:42:49):
And what about like with gender specifically, like do you
do you have specific stuff in life where you're like,
oh I'm a boy, Oh I am a man?

Speaker 3 (01:42:56):
Oh, I'm a straight man. Yeah, how does that come into.

Speaker 1 (01:43:02):
Yeah, I was trying to think about that my dad,
like as a representation of manhood or masculinity.

Speaker 2 (01:43:12):
My dad.

Speaker 1 (01:43:14):
Was like pretty and he's like he's very physically capable,
super athletic, super driven and ambitious, hard worker, all that stuff.
I don't really remember much talk about what it is
to be a man. I just know that like he
was like a version or like he was like my

(01:43:38):
role model of of that. And they're you know, like
they kind of talked to us. One of our one
of their best friends, who was our babysitter a lot
of the time, was a lesbian woman, and like I
didn't really like they kind of like Estelle's a lesbian,
like which means that she likes girls, Like she's she's

(01:43:59):
a woman and she's attracted to women, and like she
would marry a woman. And we were like okay, cool,
and I don't like, I guess masculinity or straightness or
like that kind of comes more into play when you're
approaching that adolescence and puberty stuff, you know. I don't

(01:44:23):
really remember like a moment where it was like declare
your major, Like are you straight or gay. You know.
It's like, I don't know how about you. Was there
a a point?

Speaker 2 (01:44:37):
No, I just always like girls, you know. It's like
that's what I remember. Yeah, just being a kid was
like I like playing sports and I like girls. You know.
It was like pretty pretty straightforward really like and like
you were saying, it's never been a moment of like

(01:45:00):
what it is to me as a man or like
what I think of as masculinity, like now at forty two,
like i'll masculinity is like really it's like your ability
to cry, like as a man, Like that's that is
a defining factor in like where I perceive dudes in

(01:45:21):
that man guy world. Is like if you don't know
when the last time you cried, Like I don't know, man, Like,
I think that is a very important I don't know.
I think it's a very important thing to do as
a man. Is to cry, is to be a human
and to have emotions. Whether I don't know, whether you're

(01:45:41):
crying out of joy, whether you're crying out of sadness,
like just I don't know, whatever, you're just caught up
in your shit and start crying, you know, But yeah,
I don't know, as like, yeah, I've never really just
always been into girls.

Speaker 1 (01:46:02):
I think probably since like straight is considered the societal normal,
we all just assume that we're straight until something comes
up that tests that, you know, right, And like I've
heard people be like, well, how do you know you're
straight if you've never like kissed a dude or hooked
up with a dude like, which I suppose is a
like a I suppose there's some merit to that, but

(01:46:24):
like I always just was like, well, I'm just not
I don't feel a type of way like and like
and then and then like to take it back to
like levels of gender or or how someone presents, like
you know, the the whatever is is taught or programmed

(01:46:44):
to us as a culture as far as like you know,
women have long hair that smells good or like you
know they have they have features and characteristics of their
body that is like I don't like like another beard
on my face, or like I do like breasts or

(01:47:08):
you know what I mean, like these characteristics that maybe
you feel naturally but also societally or like you know,
like do I want or like am I attracted to
women who present more masculine or like if they you know,
like I feel like these days it's it's kind of
a these kids have they do whatever they want. Like

(01:47:29):
there's like a Billie Eilish who wears the outfits that
we wore when we were sixteen, like Jinko jeans and
giant shirts and backwards ball caps, like, but then she's
also like very conventionally beautiful and like very curvy and
like has these these attributes that are like, Okay, yes,
I find that attractive. So I don't really care what

(01:47:50):
you're wearing if we're talking about just attraction levels, like
you know, and like do I know that? Yeah? I
don't know. Like trying to suss out what's culturally programmed
and what is like what I actually respond to is
it is a it's a different a different thing.

Speaker 2 (01:48:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:48:11):
That makes me think about something that people will talk
about with like when you're trying to figure out whether
or not you're trands right or like a good thought
experiment about it is for many people, if you say
to them, like, okay, well what makes you a man? First,
answers are often about their body, right, or like even
kind of as you're saying, like like what physical characteristics

(01:48:32):
do women tend to have? And so so imagining like
one by one. If like if the first thing you
said is like, well, I'm a man because I have
a penis, you're like, then I would say, okay, great,
tomorrow you're gonna lose that in a horrific car accident.

Speaker 3 (01:48:44):
Now are you not a man anymore? Right?

Speaker 4 (01:48:46):
And so then they'll you know, then it's something else, Well, no,
I'm a man because whatever. And so you can just
go like one by one by one and say okay,
like tomorrow we're gonna shave off your beard and it'll
never grow back, and the next day we are gonna
give you boobs, and the next day your hair is
and go out and you can never cut it again. Right,
And so it's like it's a it's an interesting way
to think through like what is.

Speaker 3 (01:49:07):
It about women that you're attracted to? What is it
about you that makes you a man?

Speaker 4 (01:49:11):
And if you take those things away one by one,
what are you left with?

Speaker 2 (01:49:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:49:16):
That's interesting, that is how do Yeah, because blind people
are gay or not? Right, Yeah, that's that's very interesting
because like how do.

Speaker 4 (01:49:30):
They know tomorrow we're going to blind you and you
can never see a woman again?

Speaker 3 (01:49:34):
What are you into?

Speaker 1 (01:49:35):
Yeah? Yeah, Well.

Speaker 3 (01:49:41):
Tids you can keep your hands ye yes.

Speaker 1 (01:49:47):
Yeah man. And then and then I think that as
a good wrap up for us, like if and this
argument could be applied to a lot of things, if
manhood or masculinity, and and also femininity and womanhood, like

(01:50:07):
if these are if these are ideals that we don't
that we can't easily define, but we have a sense
of them when we encounter them, and we can talk
about different things that live in those those containers, like
what do you choose as what's important to you? And

(01:50:32):
like are there values in each camp that you're like
upholding or working into your own self or like working
into you know, because like and especially in the CrossFit world,
like there is many there are many women that are
like way stronger, way fitter, way more jacked than most dudes.
I think, what is it less than one percent of

(01:50:54):
dudes can bench to twenty five? Like you know what
I mean, I don't think. I don't think I can
bench two twenty five I know, But as far as
fitness metrics or physical capability metrics, like the CrossFit world
is full of women who are way more fit than
the average dude. Yeah, and like does my view of
masculinity involve physicality, like I think it does because I

(01:51:20):
value physicality, you know, Like, but I value physicality in
women too, you know. I just think that a human
should be a certain amount capable, you know, and like
a human who's who has the mindset of like I
want to protect people, or I want to like if
someone if someone comes in here and tries to snatch

(01:51:41):
my kid, like fighting them, you know, Like my wife
feels the same way, Like am I making sure that
I have a certain amount of ability to do that efficiently?
Or like I don't think that necessarily has to do
with man who are masculinity, but it has to do
with like stereotypically those categories, you know, like for you,

(01:52:02):
like what what are some values of manhood or masculinity
that you try to integrate or like that feel important
to you? Or have they all dissolved into like it's
a spectrum and we're all human.

Speaker 3 (01:52:14):
Yeah, I definitely lose perspective.

Speaker 4 (01:52:18):
I have been I know that I asked you guys
in my message pretty specifically, like what I want to
talk about is what it means to you to be
a man. So I've been trying to think about, like
what what does it mean to me? And the answer is,
I have no idea.

Speaker 3 (01:52:30):
I don't know. I mean I think.

Speaker 4 (01:52:35):
I think that to me, it's really important to be
kind and to be gentle and to be direct with people.
I like, semi ironically point to the idea of a
himbo as like gender goals. You guys know that one,
Like it's the malecal one of a bimbo.

Speaker 3 (01:52:52):
Right, So it's like, in.

Speaker 4 (01:52:54):
Order to be a himbo, you have to be strong, sweet,
and stupid. And I'm like, I'm kind of joking when
I say that that's the goal, but I'm also kind.

Speaker 2 (01:53:02):
Of not.

Speaker 1 (01:53:04):
And is that because that's a good blend of traditionally
masculine and traditionally feminine.

Speaker 4 (01:53:08):
I think it's I think it's a good blend like
in general for humans, right, Like like what you're saying
about physical capacity as well as like kindness to others and.

Speaker 3 (01:53:18):
With with stupidity. Like mostly what that.

Speaker 4 (01:53:19):
Means to me is like humility, right, Like the willingness
to admit that I'm wrong or that I'm uneducated or
that I don't know something.

Speaker 1 (01:53:28):
What's a good archetype for you? Like if you look
at because because I was thinking about this based off
your questions the other day, is like I have not
really in my life been into the idea of like
male role models. Like I had my dad, but he
felt unattainable because he's like a doctor and like a
super fit and like I'm was like, I'm not that dude,
Like you know, but like who is what is the

(01:53:50):
masculinity that I relate to? Our grasp on too? And
like it had very much to do with that, like
machismo and toughness, and like whether it was gangster or
like action heroes or all that kind of stuff. So
like I had that baked in, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:54:06):
Yeah, I mean as far as the Himbo archetype goes
Kronk from The Emperor's New Groove is archetypal Himbo shut out.
So that that's like my good, like funny answer, And
I do genuinely think as a character, like he's a
great one. He's funny, he's passionate about cooking, he's like
sweet to animals and children.

Speaker 3 (01:54:27):
What more do you want?

Speaker 4 (01:54:31):
Another more serious answer is that I recently read the
edited journals of Lou Sullivan, who was a trans man
who died of AIDS in the eighties or early nineties
and like he was like early enough in medical transition
that he was like there wasn't a societal like thing
about trans people. It was just like a novelty where

(01:54:51):
the doctors are like, sure, whatever, we can try this,
Oh you want to mistectomy?

Speaker 3 (01:54:54):
Okay. And his like.

Speaker 4 (01:54:58):
Total ability to like see himself as a man and
to insist that other people also did that. It has
been really I've learned a lot from that, even though
I am ten years into transition, Like reading about how
he approached it and how he.

Speaker 3 (01:55:17):
Thought about it, I mean, I.

Speaker 4 (01:55:19):
Still assume that everybody knows right, Like thinking about talking
to you Kevin about the process stuff, I'm like, it
didn't even really occur to me that you didn't know
no idea, and that is new to me, and reading
what Lou had to say about some of that already
and still has changed, like some of how I approach
that stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:55:37):
Even when you said you were a trans person, I didn't.
I didn't know that that meant like you know what
I mean, there's like allies and you know what I mean.
Like I was just like, fucking I don't know. And
then I remember you and I were talking about when
we saw you on the We were talking that day
at the at Ben Listen and you were like, yeah,
I think I think he's trans. He's had scars. He

(01:56:01):
didn't see him. He took a shirt off at the gym.
I was like, no, bro, I don't. I can't really
you know, not really like checking people, you know, staring
at people other than like shoulder mobility hip hinge right
or the hips extend, you know what I mean like
that and like yeah, no idea man. And even now
like telling people that you're coming on the pod and
they're like, wait, what really, Like I'm like yeah, man,

(01:56:26):
like yeah, yeah, which is kind of cool, Which is
like again like to kind of go back to like
the very beginning of the pot of like just it's
not what you think it is. If you're just getting
information from the internet, you know, like it's not it
doesn't have to be this like for sure, it doesn't

(01:56:49):
have to be like a political thing, right, which seems
like a very natural way that people take this, you know,
and it's just like man, we're just fucking dudes. We're
just trying to like all just like again, be kind,
be thoughtful to others, you know what I mean, And
like just just be good dudes.

Speaker 4 (01:57:07):
Another good thought experiment that I like to offer up
is that if you, whoever is listening to this, think
that you can tell when someone is trans. If you
think that you would know, go and sit on a
bench on the street sometime and imagine that every single
person who walks past you is trans and think about
what physical characteristics are giving them away quote unquote oh yeah,

(01:57:28):
and you will learn very quickly that everybody has any
kind of physical body shape and characteristics and like face
shape and facial hair that you could ever possibly imagine
and you cannot tell I promise.

Speaker 2 (01:57:41):
Yeah, No, I mean I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:57:43):
I think I would do pretty well at a game show.
I'm pretty sure. And maybe that's an autistic thing, like
maybe spectu me on that word. And is there something
that you like, like what's like the the wrap up

(01:58:05):
moral of like heyo, Like here is something for people
who aren't entrenched in allyship or the verbiage or like
the the you know what I mean? Like, what's something
that that people can take away from this that is
a good starting point of like just being a good
person in this in this issue.

Speaker 4 (01:58:26):
Yes, I have one that is kind of specifically geared
towards the church crowd. Of how it is phrased, and
this is I'm going to paraphrase a tweet that goes
around pretty frequently, which says that God made trans people
for the same reason that he made wheat but not bread,
and grapes but not wine, so that humanity can share

(01:58:47):
in the joy of creation.

Speaker 2 (01:58:49):
Whoa boom boom.

Speaker 1 (01:58:52):
That's pretty dope.

Speaker 2 (01:58:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because they're they're they're they're a tough crowd, man,
those are those religious They're a tough crowd, you know.
But it's cool to be able to have conversations with
them because you learn pretty quick that like, not all
of them are again what you think that they are, right,
Like not everyone that I've talked to about this, that

(01:59:15):
that goes to the church that I go to is like,
was not a man, you know what I mean? Like,
there's there there is a group of women they're like, man,
that's awesome, that's cool. Man. I'd love to hear that.
I want to listen to that, which, like I guess
it is the whole point of this, you know, other
than to like just kind of hang out get to
know each other other than you know, training and just

(01:59:36):
like informing us or informing myself of like actual information,
you know, because like I said, I don't know shit,
you know what I mean, Like and I know that,
so it's like, well, let's figure something out and you know, yeah,
you go from there.

Speaker 1 (01:59:54):
And then as far as a local, like, are you
pretty involved with the Pride Foundation or is there like
a group of trans specific folks that like, you know,
there's things that we could in any sort of la
I think I you know, I've been involved in the
past with like, hey, if there's a meeting of queer
people or trans people who feel unsafe in this political climate,

(02:00:16):
I'm happy to show up and lend a different type
of front facing right presentation to them feeling safe or
stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (02:00:28):
Yeah, the Pride Foundation is a good resource for sure.

Speaker 4 (02:00:32):
There's a lot cooking in the background for June, for
Pride Month, There's gonna be a lot of events, a
lot of workshops. There's some stuff that's can be specifically
geared towards parents, and I'm talking about kids further, like
what if you have a trans kid, what do you do? Yeah,
I think like for anybody local, I would point you
towards Pride with questions or for.

Speaker 3 (02:00:53):
More information or come and talk to me. I'm involved
with Pride.

Speaker 1 (02:00:57):
Yeah, and like, be willing to have those conversations if
you're feeling some sort of doubt or or like, I
don't know, but I think I do know, but maybe
I should check in to see if I'm correct in
what I think I do know.

Speaker 4 (02:01:11):
Definitely, yeah, And and not every transperson wants to do that,
but I will do that totally. I am comfortable anybody
who wants to come to me and say I don't
know something, We're good.

Speaker 3 (02:01:22):
That's a good place to start.

Speaker 2 (02:01:23):
Hell yeah, cool man, Well, thank you Owen for uh man,
for getting this going and hitting me up and coming
through and sending good questions and man, just just being
the fucking man, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:01:36):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:01:37):
That's a that's a wrap, man, all right. Be the
light

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