Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are not a monogamous species. It's a social construct.
And I get attacked for saying things like this, but
sexual monogamy, for an evolution point of view, is not
a good idea. That's why we have a reasonably high
rate of people who have extra marifal affairs.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So do you think we're all somewhat pretending to be monogamous?
Who do you think struggles with it? More men and women?
And you said that there's not a different in well
being and satisfaction between polyamory or monogamy.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Absolutely not. How do you know this because we've done
studies on them, and I've committed the last two decades
of my life to understand the neuroscience of love.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Doctor Animation is the Oxford Train evolutionary anthropologist using science
to decode attractions, attachment styles, love addictions. Now the crucial
roles of the father.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So here's the thing. When we look for a partner,
we don't know we're doing it, and it involves two
very distinct terrorism ringth So there's the unconscious stage. That's
where you've taken loads of sensory information about them. So
for example, if you're a woman, you can smell genetic compatibility.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Wait, so men can't smell women, but women can smell
when you can smell them.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
But it's not going to give you any information about
genetic compactability. So your brain is going to help you
assess whether they're any good for you. If you get
a good ping, a certain chemicals plot the very core
of the brain take away the fear that gives you
the motivation. Now, human love is so complicated. So for example,
the chemistry that underpins love is also involved in neurodiversity.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So if I have ADHD or autism, how am I
more likely to struggle in love?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
This is really really important.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
First of all, Dr Mitchen, why are you talking about fatherhood?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
The way our cultured trace fathers is wrong. The myths
we carry about fathers are wrong. Men have a very
specific role in child development. I wasn't expecting to find
this when I first started, but it's fundamental for a
child to thrive and survive and be successful. So what
we're finding is.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
This has always blown my mind a little bit. Fifty
three percent of you that listen to this show regularly
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And my commitment to you is if you do that,
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team to make sure that this show is better for you.
(02:04):
Every single week, we'll listen to your feedback, we'll find
the guests that you want me to speak to, and
we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much,
doctor Anna Mitchen. What is the mission you've so far
committed your life to? And I guess adding to that.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Why I've committed the last two decades of my life
to understanding human love and understanding human close relationships because
as an anthropologist, I understand that love since that the
center of order is to be human. If you strip
everything else away and you just you've got your food,
you've got your water, the next thing you need are
your relationships, is your love. And we are so lucky
(02:45):
as a species to experience love in quite a complex
way with many different types of people and beings, and
we know that it's like the number one thing in
terms of your your health, mental, physical longevity, your happiness,
your well being, and I think we need to understand it,
particularly in a world where we're starting to get a
lot of input in terms of technology and AI and
the world is getting quicker. We need to go back
(03:08):
to who we are really at our core and what
love really is. And I suppose that's what I've given
my life over to, is to really explain to people
who are you because your love is your identity essentially.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And you use the word anthropologist, then what is an anthropologist?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Okay, so an anthropologist is somebody studies the human species.
I'm an evolutionary anthropologist, which means, I said, at the
scientific end of it, you consider it's sort of the
cultural end or the scientific end, And I study how
evolution has shaped us and also why things evolved. So,
for example, why did love evolved? Why did fatherhood evolve?
And I use lots and lots of different techniques scanning
and genetics and all these different things to be able
(03:45):
to answer that question.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I've got another book sat in front of me here
which is I guess somewhat linked to love, which is
about fathers. Yeah, so how did these two things come together?
We've got a book here about love and then we've
got a book about fatherhood and you're you're very well
known for talking the subject to fatherhood. What is the link?
How did the link come to be? And why why
are you talking about fatherhood.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
We have the wrong idea about fathers. The way our
culture deals with father's, treats fathers is wrong. The myths
we carry about fathers are wrong. The influence they have
on their children and ultimately on our society is fundamental.
So the link came because I had a child, and
like most couples who have a baby, you know, we
talked about it. We were like, we're going to start
trying to have a baby. Then we became pregnant, which
(04:29):
was great, did the pregnancy to test together, went to
the antenatal classes, went to the scans or wonderful, went
in to have the baby, and it didn't turn out
how it was supposed to. I was very very ill.
I lost a lot of blood. My daughter was poorly
when she was born. And afterwards I was offered loads
of counseling, which like a debrief would you like? And
I was like, well, to be absolutely honest, I'm okay.
Because I passed out. I literally don't remember anything but
(04:50):
my husband witnessed it all, and he basically saw a
car crash in slow motion with two people in it
who he loved very deeply, and I can understand why
it was a very stressful information. But nobody explained to
him what was happening. And so they mopped me up,
took my baby, took her to neonatal care, and left
him in the room on his own. And I was
(05:12):
breathing very shalloy, and he was scared, and the cleaner
came in and said was cleaning away, and he just
said to the cleaner, do you think she's dead? Because
I was breathing so shallowly, and the cleaner went, now,
I don't think so. May I think they would have
told you if she was dead. But after that, he
couldn't talk about the birth, He couldn't imagine the birth,
(05:32):
He couldn't deal with the emotions from the birth for
good two years afterwards, and he was really worried about
having another kid. And this made me really angry, actually,
because I was like, hold on, we went into this together,
and he's literally been discarded like he doesn't matter, and
to me, he's fundamentally important. And then as our daughter
grew I saw the amazing bond he built with her,
how integral he was to her life. And so when
(05:52):
I went back to university at Oxford to study and
to do my work, I thought, well, I'm an anthropologists. Okay,
let's look up what do we know about fathers in
our society? And there's literally nothing. There was a lot
of work on absent fathers and their impact is fundamental,
we know that, and there was a lot of quite
stereotypical work on young father's teenage fathers. Nothing on the
(06:14):
majority of dads who, whether they co reeside or not,
stick around. So I started with some really simple questions,
what happens to a man when he becomes a father?
Does he auto biologically psychologically? How does he build his
bond with his child? What's the nature of that bond?
Does he have a role in child development separate to
that to mum. Because when I started twenty years ago,
the mantra was dads didn't undergo any changes. Dads did
(06:38):
not have a bond like mum to their children. It
was not as intense, and it certainly wasn't an attachment relationship,
which we all know are really intense and bornant relationships
and as an evolutionary anthropologist, I was like, that can't
be right, because human fatherhood is rare. We are one
of only five percent of mammals that have investing fathers
and we're the only ape. Now. For something that rare
(06:58):
to evolve, it has to had a purpose because it
led to amazing anatomical social upheavals. So that's what I'm
began to do. Twenty years ago. I started asking those questions.
I recruited my first group of fifteen first time fathers
when they're partners, are three months pregnant, and off we went.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So the question that's friends of mine for me is
what is it upstream that made us devalue the role
of a father? Where did that come from? Because fathers
are somewhat seen as surplus to requirement, I think, where
did that come from?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
It's cultural. It's entirely cultural, because there are cultures in
the world who don't think that our fathers are very,
very integral. So, in fact, one of the most hands
on fathers in the world is from the Aca tribe
in the Congo. They keep physical contact with their children
for fifty percent of the day, they carry them around,
they co sleep, not the mum, They co sleep with
the child. They are the one that carries the child
through the jungle when they're hunting and gathering. They are
(07:49):
the one that sings to the child, wed stories to
the child. They even, and this is the bit that
always gets the headlines, they even will offer a nipple
to soothe the child and tell them mother is ready
to breastfeed. So it's cultural. We have this idea that
and it's partly it partly came very much from the
Victorian period where fathers were seen to be disciplinarians and
providing the money, and that was the Victorian idea of
(08:10):
being a father. It's also to do with our politics
and society for a long time, so women weren't able
to go out to work and that's where we've remained
t hell very very recently. But there's no biology behind that.
That's entirely cultural. And I think also it's very much
the case. Yes women today we have contraceptions, so we
can control our production of children, we can earn our
(08:33):
own money, we can protect ourselves, we can look after ourselves.
So actually, in one sense you think, well, yeah, what's
the dad for because I can do all those things
which historically the father had to do when women's positions
were different, and we've sort of carried on with that,
and there's become this manta of actually, then we just
don't need them. I mean, I've even been to lectures
where they've decided that the why chrome saying is going
to become obsolete and that we really won't need dads
(08:54):
at all, even to conceive children at some point, and
which to me sounds a ludicrous And that's where to
come from. And we've embedded that, and we embedded it
in our media. So dads were always bumbling or useless
or absent. You know, Daddy Pig is the ultimate bumbling,
useless father. And we laughed at it. We think it's funny.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Maybe the way that these two subjects initially do sort
of dove turl into each other is when we think
about the state of love and the role of men
and women. You touched a bit on it there when
you talked about how women are earning more and more
so men are becoming a little bit more apparently obsolete
in what they can offer to a monogamous relationship. There
(09:31):
were some stats that I was looking at before you arrived,
and I'll read them ount to you does stats say
that only thirty eight percent of single women are actively
looking to date versus sixty one percent of single men,
which is a huge gap. Morgan Stanley projects that forty
five percent of women age twenty five to forty four
will be single by twenty thirty. In England and Wales,
(09:53):
a record almost forty percent of adults have never married.
For women aged thirty to thirty four, the figure is
now most sixty, which is the lowest ever. Women initiate
roughly seventy percent of divorces, showing a greater willingness to
exit marriages that are unsatisfying than men. And obviously, I
think one of the points you were sort of touching
(10:14):
on there is that women are now much more educated
as it relates to things like college degrees compared to men.
There's this bigger picture around relationships and love that kind
of sits in the background of this and women's rise
in independence, which I think we can all agree is
was always going to be a positive thing, but downstream
from that is a clear issue and how we form
(10:35):
monogamous heterosexual relationships these days. And also, like you know,
part of the reason one of many reasons I wanted
to speak to you is I was thinking about my
friendship group and the women that I know and more.
I spoke to a friend of mine a couple of
weeks ago, and I said to her, like, what are
your girls? And she said, I currently have about one
(10:57):
hundred and fifty plants, and I want to get tobout
two hundred and fifty plants. I said to her, do
you want Do you want to get married when I
have kids? You want? No interest in that. What I
want is I want to get to the point where
I have financial freedom so I can buy a house,
and I want to get over two hundred plants. Yeah,
and this is it sounds kind of funny, but it's
an increasingly familiar story that I'm hearing, which is, once
(11:19):
upon a time, the goal would have been get married,
you know, have kids, build a life together. Now it's
more individualistic. What's your thoughts here? What is the state
of love at the moment.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Well, it's definitely more individualistic. We've become a more individualistic society,
so we are looking more at, yes, what do I want,
rather than in a way contributes to community, which is
what collectivists societies do. Women in the past had to
get married. You couldn't have children out wordlock. That was
definitely not acceptable. You had to get married because that's
where your financial security was, and that's what you did.
Quite often, those marriages weren't based on love. They were
(11:52):
based on very pragmatic decisions about this is where I
need to be. So women have been freed from that.
They don't have to do that anymore. The other thing
to say is they've realized that romantic love isn't the
only love in the box what we call their key
survival critical relationship in many cases, so the relationship that's
going to support them emotionally, physically, practically all those sorts
of things are their female friends. They're chosen families, and
(12:14):
that's who they're turning to. And that's why we're seeing
less and less women saying that romantic love is priority
or parental love is a priority. And in one sense
that's great because actually it's showing that all these loves
are equal and I can love in that way, and
I think that's wonderful in one sense. But yes, it
does mean that we're turning away from that idea of
long term cohabiting companionship and so when people say to me,
(12:35):
for example, is marriage going to die? Are we going
to end? No? I don't think it is. We will always,
for example, have a ritualistic marking of a romantic relationship.
Whatever sex you are and whatever sexuality you are, I
think that will always exist. But we're going through a
bit of a seed change. We're also seeing it in
older women postmenopause or women because it's only really very
recently that we've got to a point where we have
(12:56):
a long postmenopause of lifespan. As women. Usually, you know,
one hundred years ago, if you got to fifty, which
is the age for when a pause this standard age,
you were lucky if you were sellerlive. But now that
period of time could be twenty, thirty, forty, even fifty years.
So I think women post fifty and there's been a
massive ups in post fifty divorces instigated by women is
(13:17):
they look at their partner and they think, you're a
great dad. I selected you when that's what I want
to do. I want to have children, want to build
fum But I look at you now and I think,
but is this the person I want to do the
next phase of my life with? Because that's a very
different set of needs. And so we're seeing women actually
looking going, no, do you know what, I'm going to
start afresh. I'm going to do something different. An it
might be they look for a different relationship, or they
(13:38):
might be yeah, they decide I'm not going to have
another romantic relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
What is the difference set of needs? Just out of curiosity,
I want to make sure that my partner doesn't done me.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
When Okay, The difference is so when we are younger
and we look for a partner for a romantic relationship,
we don't know we're doing it. There are two stages
of attraction in romantic love. There's the unconscious stage, which
we share with all the mammals, and then there's the
conscious age, which is very different. That involves your neocortex, which,
looking at this is this big walnut bit on the outside.
(14:05):
Human love is special because it involves two very distinct
areas of the brain. So this is the limbic care
of your brain. This bit in the center here, that's
your unconscious brain. That's where your emotions sit, where nurturing
behaviors sit, where attachment behaviors. Bit is very evolutionarily ancient,
It's been around for millions and millions of years, and
this is where initially attraction starts. And what you do
(14:26):
is you lock eyes with someone across crowded room and
you've taken loads of sensory information about them, So you
take in visual information. What do they look like? What
does their body shape? Tell me about their value? How
are they moving? Do they look healthy? If you're a woman,
you will give them a good sniff and you can
smell genetic compatibility.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Wait, so men can can't smell women, but women can smell.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Well, you can smell them, but it's not going to
give you any information about genetic compatibility. So what happens
is a woman the major histoic compatibility complex.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
It underpins your immune system. It's a complex set of genes,
and bizarrely, that set of genes also underpins your smell,
your ability to smell, your old factory system. Okay, and
in women they can smell. How genetically close are male's
MHC is histo compatibility complex? How close it is to theirs.
But you don't want too close because you don't want
(15:16):
to inbreed. Also, you want it distant because then your
child gets a really lovely diverse immune system because they've
got a diverse set of genes underpinning it. So you
smell them. It's not a conscious thing. So people say
to me, oh, but you know, what about aftershave, what
about perfumes? Or it's not conscious. You do not know
you're doing it. And one of the things that will
be fed into your limbic area is the result of
(15:37):
that little test. If you're a woman, what do they
smell like?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
How do they know this? Have they tested this?
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Okay, we've tested this in several ways. So there was
the very famous T shirt tests which Telly people love,
where you make a load of men put on a
very plain T shirt. They're not allowed to wash, they're
not allowed to use deodorant, not allowed to do anything.
Wear it for twenty four hours. Then we put it
in some zip lock bags and we've get some poort
unsuspecting woman to sniff the ball. And the idea is
(16:02):
that the one she finds most attractive to sniff is
the one which is genetically furthest away from her. And
it does work. It works when you geno type her,
you can see that they are different. We don't have
to do that anymore. We have very sophisticated genotyping technology. Now,
if you really wanted to, there's a company in Switzerland
that will do it for you. So you can spit
on something, send it off with your partner, and they
will tell you how close your major historic compactibility complexes are.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I'm just wondering why men didn't evolve to be able
to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
We think it's probably because the cost to a woman
of getting it wrong and having a baby who is
basically too genetically close is much greater than it is
for a man, because she is basically taking herself out
of that opportunity to reproduce for nine months plus the
bid after look after that child, and so that's a
really long period of time, whereas a man it's not
(16:48):
that costly. OK, so you've taken in all that information
from the sensors. It's all worrying around in here, and
what your brain is actually doing is your brain has
got a very complicated algorithm which is working out the
biological market value of the person in front of you. Now,
the biological market value is how likely that person is
to be reproductively successful. Because from an evolutionary point of view,
(17:11):
that's the whole point of your existence. Whether you want
kids or not. Guys, that's the point is you have
to reproduce. Have some lovely, healthy kids, raise them to
maturity so they can reproduce, because we just want your genes.
From a revolutionary standpoint, we're not interested in a personality,
and so you want somebody who has got the highest
likelihood of being good at that. And we can tell
that from lots of things to do with how someone looks,
(17:32):
the pitch of their voice, how they smell. What men
actually do is they look at the waist tip ratio.
You don't know you're doing it, but eye tracking experiments
show that men do it. They don't know that. It's
completely unconscious. Wonderful study has been done with people walking
down the street with not mentioning to them what we're
looking for. They're wearing eye tracking technology and what they
(17:52):
do is the first thing they glance at, even if
they don't know it, is the waste tip ratue. Before
for example, they will look at the face and what
they're calculating is what that ratio is. Because we know
cross culturally, the most attractive ratio is a point seven,
and that is actually a classic hourglass cross culturally, cross
culturally if we go, and it's nothing to do with weight,
because some cultures like bigger weights than other cultures. Nothing
(18:15):
to do with weight, It's to do with the ratio.
And so if we if we show that ratio to
different cultures, they will go it's that one. And the
reason for that is there is a direct link between
that ratio and, for example, fertility. So if a woman
has that show she's got high circulating estrogen, it shows
she's not near menopause. Because when we go to menopause
we get more of a male figure. It goes towards
one the ratio because of the drop in estrogen and
(18:37):
the build up in testosterone. So we know that there's
a link between point seven and a range of illnesses,
chronic illnesses such as diabetes, heart disease, certain forms of cancer.
So actually what you're assessing there is healthy. How fertile
is this woman? So if I take myself off the
market for a period of time, am I going to
end up with some kids? And is she healthy to
(18:57):
raise them?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
In those eye tracking studies, what do women look at?
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Women look at slightly different things, and for women, what's
really interesting is it's not as visual. So women look
at the at the shoulder waist ratio. So that's yes,
there we go. And what you're looking for as a
woman is a triangle. So nice, broad shoulders, narrow waist.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Now the ideal there is one point six. What I
will say before men rush off from measure there were
is really only Olympic athletes have one point six.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
One point six, meaning the top half should be one point.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Six bigger than than your waist.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Okay, okay. So if my waist is let's say, one hundred, yes,
how bad my mess?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yes, this needs to be one hundred and sixty.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
One hundred and sixty again, yeah, so my waist is
one hundred, the top half one hundred and sixty yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Okay, but that's actually really only Olympic athletes, so please everyone,
don't rush off and worry. But what that's showing is
that shows certain things which are desirable in a male,
so things like physical strength. So if you have a
big upper body and a narrow ways, first of all,
it shows you're not holding fat round here, which is
a real sign of ill health for men. It shows
(20:05):
you that you're bravery fit. Around here. It shows that
you've got very broad shoulders, you are muscular, you are
able to protect and provide. It's a sign of reasonably
high testosterone. Testosterone is linked to success in men. Okay,
So it shows that I'm a successful person in our society,
that's successful social in successful financially.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Testosterone is linked to success in men.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yes, because it makes you very competitive.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Okay, So we.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Get all these things. You take all that in, you
take in navigual information, You do your little algorithm in
your brain, which obviously you don't know is happening. If
you get a good ping as in, yes, this person
has a good biological market value. I like that. What
happens is in the very core of the brain in
the middle. So this this is the very core of
the brain. Here. There's a structure there called the nucleusucumbans.
It's full of dopamine and oxytocin receptors that fires off,
(20:50):
goes completely mad if we look at it on the screen,
and dopamine oxotosin flood that system. And the reason why
they are important is in a way they are the
hormones of attraction. So OXI toasin lowers your inhibitions to
starting new relationships. Okay, So it takes away the fear.
And the way it does that is it quietens You're
a migdala. So the amigdala is a tiny little structure
down here at the bottom and it it's where fear sits.
(21:13):
And that's the thing that if you're not feeling confident,
has that monologue in the back of your head going, Okay,
you're just not very good at this. You're going to
walk across the bar, you're going to say hello, and
they're going to humiliate you. So it quietens that area.
We see less activity there, so you've got more confidence. Also,
oxtose makes you feel quite chilled. It's quite nice. And
then dopamine is also released because dopamine is your hormone
of motivation, and if you just had oxytocin, you might
(21:37):
be so chilled you sat on the bartle when you
did not move because you having a lovely time. So
dopamine as there's go no, you actually have to go
across the bar and you have to say hello. And
so they work really really well together, and they also
work together to make your brain more plastic.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
So I have to ask you then if I'm a
single person. Yes, and with what you've just told me
about the brain, I'm trying to increase the probability that
someone will be Attrack did to me and form a relationship.
To me, what kind of behavior do I need to
be embodying to because I want to I want to
reduce the fear part of their brain so that they're
more comfortable, and I want that oxytocin and don't mean
(22:12):
to be firing.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yes, absolutely so. Quite often people say to me, how
can I hack my first date? So the way you
can hack your first date is you can do an
activity which releases beta and orphin and dopamine and oxytocin.
The best one I have found, which I appreciate is
a niche interest is some form of dancing in couples,
ballroom dancing, you know, tango, whatever it is. Because first
(22:35):
of all, you're touching, so you get released oxytocin and
beta and dolphin. They're both released by touch. You're moving around,
as any gym bunny knows, exercise produces beter and dolphin.
Hopefully you're not that great at this, so you're going
to laugh a lot because you're actually a little bit rubbish. Okay,
so you're releasing lots and lots of lovely oxytocin, dope
mean and beter and doorphin. Doing that, then afterwards you
(22:57):
need to go and have a curry. Okay, Because betera
and doorphin evolved initially as your body's painkiller, that's role
it has. Over time, it's been co opted into our
social sphere. But we know you have painceptors in your gut,
So if you have a curry, your gut gets a
little bit irritated because it's a little bit spicy, So
don't have a carmer, And it produces beter and orphin,
(23:19):
and we know that that will also help you, help
you feel more euphoric, help you feel more relaxed, and
help that person be more attracted to you because they
will also get a hit of it. So that's your
ideal data. I appreciate it's very niche and not everyone
wants to do that, but there are ways.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
And then I'm going to take her to the comedy store, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
And have a really good belly laugh. A proper laugh
produces beta and orphin.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Okay, Yeah, had we finished.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
With, Well, so what you're doing, your biological market value
comes out as I say you hit dopaminoxytocin, you'r amixed
di laquatun's. You feel much more confident, you feel much
more chilled. Dopamine motivates you to walk across the bar
and off you go and you strike up conversation. And
that is the way attraction works. In all mammals. It's
completely unco conscious, so you don't know any of this
is happening. What's different in humans is very quickly after that,
(24:05):
particularly once they've opened their mouth, it all starts kicking
off in the outer air of the brain, so your neocortex,
so the major social air of the brain is here.
This is your prefrontal cortex, and your prefrontal cortex is
where all those social abilities sit, you know, so trust, reciprocity,
ability to maintain, ability to abstract about your relationship, or
(24:27):
the ability to day dream about what it's going to be,
and that's where all that sits. So we start seeing
faring off here. And what's really what's really important for
human love is there is a connection between this air
of the brain, which is known as the striatum, which
is unconscious, and this air of the brain, the prefront
of cortex. So your unconscious brain and your conscious brain
can work together in attraction. And also this air of
(24:49):
the brain at the back, which is known as the
mentalizing empathizing air of the brain. So we need to
have empathy and relationships. It's the basis of love. So
understanding someone's emotional state and being able to re sponsor
it appropriately and also mentalizing. So mentalizing is mind reading
what's their intention, what are they going to do next?
You need it for conversation. You also need it to
spot a cheat because you need to check someone's intention.
(25:13):
So the mentalizing error of the brain is important. The
sad bit, and i'll explain this in a minute, is
unfortunately that bit shots down a little bit, which isn't
very helpful. What we'll talk about that. So then as
soon as they open their mouth, you start to contemplate
them consciously, and what you contemplate consciously in terms of
your attraction can actually override the unconscious bit. So you
might have had this amazing feeling of you know, lust
(25:34):
and chemistry as you walk cross the bar, thinking wow,
this person's amazing and feeling astonishing. They open their mouth
and they say something to you which is just unconscionable
or awful, or they've got no sense of humor, or
they're really unkind, or whatever it might be. And suddenly
that bit will step in and go, ah, Nope, this
person is not for me, and that can override the biology.
(25:55):
But that's why what we say, and I always say
the brain is the sexier storgan in the body because
ultimately it's what you expressed with your brain that is
going to really determine whether or not this love is
going to go anywhere. And that's what you say because ultimately,
as humans, the thing that makes us the most successful
species on the planet is our brain. Not your shoulder
wist ratio, not your waist tip ratio, it's actually your brain.
(26:16):
Because you want your kid to have the most creative, flexible, funny, intelligent,
emotionally intelligent brain they can have, and that's what you're
looking for in a partner in the long term.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
So, based on what you know about attraction and falling
in love and all those things, what is like the
worst thing one could say in terms of the themes
the types of things someone can say that would just
completely put you off.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
So I think probably the absolutely worst thing you can say,
and this comes from a lot of data saying what's
the most important is to say something unkind. So we know,
regardless of everything else, the one thing that people want
in a long term relationship is somebody kind. So something
critical of somebody else in the room, particularly something I mean,
you don't know what that person's interests are, but something
(26:57):
critical about something that's very important to them.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Don't be able waiter, waitress.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Yeah, exactly. That's why how people treat I mean personally.
I find people who treat waiters in raging, you know,
badly enraging. That's why, because it's a rare representation of
who you are at your call, or they express a
value which goes completely against a value that you have.
Because we know in terms of long long term compatibility,
it's things to do with personality, it's things to do
(27:23):
long term values or beliefs that are the most important things.
So let's say somebody said something horrendously homophobic or something
like that, or something racist. That's an immediate right, No,
this person is not for me.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
What about X? Because X seem to have emerged as
like her. So it's got a friend of mine who's
she's never been in a relationship, she's she's just a
thirty seven years old thirty eight years old. And I
remember one day she was like, Steve, what am I
doing wrong? And I'm not listen. I was never really
a data so I have no right to tell someone
what they're doing right or wrong. But she showed me
her dating profile and then a dating profile. She said
(27:58):
to me, I said no to this guy. And I
looked at this guy and he's like a stud. He's
beautifully good looking, was really really kind in the messages.
She goes, but if you look in the background of
his photo, there's boxes on top of his wardrobe. And
she was like, so I said no. Right Now, from
an evolutionary perspective, you go, Okay, maybe he's looking at
(28:18):
his mum's house. Maybe he's just moved in, maybe whatever.
Maybe he's not a settled person. But really, there is
become a culture of women and men excluding each other
based on extremely surface level things. Now I'm like, does
that is that the prefrontal cortex doing its job or
is that something else?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
It is the prefront of cortex doing its job, I
would say it's not doing its job terribly well. It
is a really recent thing that was generated by social
media and this idea of narrying in closer and closer
and closer in what people like to call red flags.
And you don't get a lot of information from online dating,
because you don't get a lot of sensory information to
help you make a decision. So people become more and
(28:56):
more obsessive what's in the image, what's in the image?
What can I get about this person? And they start
to become obsessed with tiny, tiny things. What ultimately people
find attractive is very, very complicated. There are so many
different things that feed into attraction. Whether or not somebody
has boxes on top of their wardrobe is very unlikely
to be even vaguely important in terms of compatibility. I
(29:16):
don't think they should be call dating apps. I think
they should be called introduction apps. And that's actually what
the great Helen Fisher said. She said, they're introduction apps.
They broaden your pool, they make more people available to you.
That's it. You're not having a date on that app.
You're not learning about that person on that app. You're
literally seeing them for the first time. And as soon
as you can get in the room with them and
you can let your brain do what it's really good
at half a million years of evolution. That's what you
(29:39):
should do, because they handicap your brain. They give you
very little information to go into that algorithm.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
You said something really interesting which kind of dovetails into
what I was saying about my friend who's never dated
but is struggling in dating. I know a growing number
of people that are going on like one hundred dates
a year and having no luck. And just like mathematically,
I go, surely it must have been someone suitable in
that pool of one hundred people a year that you've met.
What is going on here?
Speaker 1 (30:06):
It's two things, I think. First of all, as I've said,
it's the low cost of dating app So in the
old days when I was dating, going on a date
was a real investment of time and energy. So you
would probably meet someone at work, you'd meet someone at bar,
you'd meet someone through a friend, which was a real
blind date, and you'd spend your time thinking what am
I going to wear? And I've got to go somewhere
with this person and spend some time with this person,
(30:27):
probably some financial investment as well, get myself all ready,
spend an evening with them, and that was how you
were going to meet somebody. So you invested time, and
you weren't going to do that unless you were serious,
to be honest, because otherwise, I'll stay at home, I'll
do something else, I'll go to the pub with my friends.
Whereas now, because we can do it, we can literally
go on a dating app anywhere on the tube, while
(30:47):
we're cooking dinner, while watching Netflix, anytime you want. It's
low cost, low investment.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I read a study that showed it was in a
different context, but it essentially showed that the amount you
invest in something correlate to the amount that you appreciate
the thing.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
They did this study where they let people into a
boring forum without having to pass any entry test, and
then they asked them how much they appreciated the boring forum,
and people said, it's boring, yes. And then they got
another group of people. They made them go through this
sort of rigorous test to get into this boring forum,
and they asked them how much you appreciate the forum.
They said, it's great. Yeah, I'm obviously paraphrasing there, but
(31:23):
it just showed this link between the amount you invest
in a process is the more you appreciate it. And
I think back to being fourteen years old going on
my first day and the whole process of getting ready
to go to the cinema and thinking about my outfit
for three days and then going there and being nervous,
and I didn't have much money, so this was like
a big thing. And then how much, you know, I
almost felt like I fell in love with the person
(31:43):
really irrespective, just because of the effort I put in,
I feel like I fell in love with them.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
So yeah, So that's so it's partly the low cost thing.
It's partly because all those people that if you were
doing it in person, your brain would filter out. Let's
say there were one hundred people in the room, your
brain were quite quickly filter out most of them as
no no no, no no no no. Maybe one or two
might do. Because you can't filter in that way on
an app, you kind of take the punt on all
(32:09):
these dates because you're like, otherwise, how else am I
gonna actually meet this person? You can't just have a
casual chat by the coffee machine at work, or you know,
meet them through some friends in the pub, where you
would do that assessment without really making that much effort,
whereas because on a dating app, the only way you
can meet that person is to actually go on a
date with them and do all that. You will end
up going on one hundred to do that filtering process.
(32:32):
So it's partly that as well. And the last thing
is the paradox of choice. So we are really really
bad at making choices when there's a lot of options.
And the paradox of choice is very powerful in relation
to dating apps because literally, particularly if you're good looking
and you get a lot of matches, there's like a
smagas board of people out there that you can carry
(32:52):
on flipping or you can make a choice, and it's
our brains are not set up for that.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
One hundred years ago, when we were trying to find
a partner, you would make We have the people in
your village who you grew up with to choose from.
If you had a horse, you could maybe have the
people in the next village or even a town. Wow,
and that was who you chose from, and it was
a very small pool. Now you can go anywhere in
the world, turn on your dating app and possibly have
you know, hundreds people to meet, and your brain can't
(33:17):
do that.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
I mean we can all think about it as well.
In the context of restaurants. If you go to Thailand, yeah,
they give you like a catalog, yes, the menu as
a catalog. They're like, we will make anything. Yeah yeah,
forty five minutes thinking that I want fish, chicken, eggsit.
But then you go to like a London fancy restaurant
and there's like we do this, this is it.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
So that's why you end up with people who yes,
go on one hundred dates and don't actually end up
with anybody because they haven't had that opportunity to.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Filter monogamy and polyamory. Yes, so can you define both
of those words? And the thing that I found really
striking is I think I heard you say that satisfaction
in either dynamic there polyamory or monogamy is roughly the same,
because I thought people in monogamous relationships were supposed to
be when more happy than people that are in polyamorous relationships.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
No, not at all. So monogamy is a relationship state
where there are two people who are okay, we have
to find two sorts of monogamy. There's sexual monogamy that
is you are exclusive to that other person sexually, you
have sex with nobody else. And there is social monogamy
and that is, you live with that person exclusively. So
(34:27):
within the UK, most people, let's say, if they have children,
are socially monogamous. They live in a household with their
children with two people in it. Whereas sexual monogamy, you
can be socially monogamous and not sexually monogamous, So they're
two different things. But monogamy, if we talk about it
in sort of lay terms, is two people who are
exclusive to each other in terms of love, in terms
(34:49):
of sex, and in terms of possibly living together. Monogamy
itself is a social construct. Mostly we are not a
monogamous species. There are in fact, very few monogamous species
in the world. Maybe I think I read a book
the other day that says something like point zero zero
two percent of the animals on this planet are monogamous,
because what you will see in the wild, and what
(35:09):
you see mostly with humans is social monogamy. They live together.
But we know that the infidelity rate it sits generally
at around fifty percent, So fifty percent of those households
are not sexually monogamous. And in fact, from an evolutionary
point of view, being sexually monogamous is a really quite
bad idea because you are limiting yourself to a very
(35:30):
narrow gene pool, and that's why there are very few
creatures in the world that are truly sexually monogamous. When
I was doing my master's, my professor studied gibbons. Gibbons
at the time were known to be the monogamous ape,
and he studied. He did a really longitudinal study, and
he was the first to realize that no, they weren't.
They were all sneaking off and doing it behind the
rock with somebody else, but they were living together. But
the female was going to find some better genes somewhere else.
(35:53):
This guy brilliant parent, not great genes. I'm going to
go behind a rock and mate with this really good
looking gibbon over here because I'm gonna get some good
gees and then he's going to raise the kid. And
the guy is like, well, you know, I'm obviously going
to have offspring here, but actually, you know, mating with
another female is not particularly costly to me, So I'll
just go and do that over there, and let's hope
you can raise them on her own, or maybe her
partner will raise them for me. So there are very few.
(36:14):
So we have monogamy in mainly in the West, because
it's a socially prescribed form of organization, and it was
imposed because it is a form of control. It mainly
sits in terms of rules, particularly in religion, but also
the ready legal rules. For example, in Britain, you can't
be you can't have two marriages, you can't be a
big a mist. And it's about making everybody control because
(36:37):
if we all just gave in constantly to precisely what
our drives were saying, that'd be kind of chaos and
those in power wouldn't be able to predict what anybody
is going to do because actually, I'm just going to
go I feel sexually attracted to whoever that is over there.
I'm going to go maybe them, but I'm going to
come back and live here. But then I've got a
kid over there, and it's all really really confusing. So
over time, when civilization first arose, the more common PLEXI got,
(37:00):
and as we started to live together in cities, those
in control We're like, Okay, I really needed to be
able to predict what these lesser beings are going to do.
So I'm going to impose monogamy. You can only live
with one person and basically have sex with one person.
Nobody actually ever only had sex with one person, but
we're going to look like we do. And those are
the rules. And that's why we haveimate legitimacy rules about
children and inheritance and all that kind of thing, because
(37:22):
it maintains control. So monogamy is simply a social construct.
It's not something that we've biologically evolved to do. And
we know that part. You know, there are many countries
in the world where monogamy isn't what is prescribed.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
How are those cultures getting on the ones that aren't monogamous? Fine,
what cultures are those?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
So you tend to get so for example, in certain religions,
so in certain forms of Islam, for example, men can
have many wives. There are certain tribes which exist within
sort of South America and in certain areas of Africa
where you can have many wives. For example, there are
some groups in Nepal in the Himalayas where we have
what's known polyandry, so one woman has many husbands. Usually.
(38:04):
The reason why these different groupings evolved like monogamy is
it's something to do with economics generally, So for example,
in Nepal, in these areas because they sell have male
inheritance of land. If let's say we've got a family
farm and there's five brothers, if all of those five
brothers split the inheritance and that farm would become uneconomic,
(38:26):
you wouldn't be able to farm it and make money.
So over time, what's evolved is one woman will marry
all the brothers, so when they inherit the farm, they
will all get it will carry on passing down essentially.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
So if it goes against our evolutionary design to be
in monogamous relationships, doesn't that mean that there's a lot
of people who are struggling against their Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Absolutely, and that's why we have a reasonably high rate
of people who have extramarital affairs. It's also why people
who are polyamorous or indeed have open relationships say, actually,
it's the more truthful way of being human because all
they're doing is following their drives, and they actually believe
that it's more moral because if you put forward a
monogamous front and you have an affair, you are lying
(39:09):
to people, You are keeping a secret from people you
profess to love, whereas if you're polyamorous or you're in
an open relationship. You're actually openly saying this is my drive,
this is the reality, and I'm being truthful with everybody
about it. So you can enter a relationship with me
or not on the basis of truth. And that's what
a lot of polyamorous people particularly will argue, is that
they're really representing what is for most people in an
(39:32):
ancestral state. Polyamory is difficult because unlike open relationships, open
relationships such as such as swinging or being open, we
call them consensual non monogamy that's just based on sex,
so you're not spreading your love relationship, that emotional investment,
that emotional intimacy amongst more than one person. Polyamory is
being open and having several sexual partners and also having
(39:55):
several emotionally intimate relationships at the same time. And I
think people struggle more with that because it's the issues
of jealousy and the fact that that goes quite strongly
against even our social ideas about monogamy where we all
sort of live in pairs.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I've got a friend of mine that's secretly in an
open polyamorous relationship basically where there's two couples and they
are together. Yeah, so there's four of them, basically, but
they don't talk about it publicly because of the judgment.
And I think maybe part of the issue is that judgment.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
That well, the polyamorous people I've interviewed, particularly for my book,
that was the major thing, is that they were very
happy in the relationship. The relationships were going really, really well.
But what was difficult was being open about it, particularly
with for example, talking to one woman who was older
members of the family, so she was going to a
family wedding, and when she went to these occasions with
(40:49):
this family, she could only ever take one of her partners.
Always had to be the same partner, because they had
no idea the other partner existed, because that would be
very difficult for them to take. Also, we know from
studies that have been done looking at people's attitudes to
polyamorous people, they are seen as immoral, they are seen
as unloving. They're seen as cold because they have this
(41:10):
ability to love lots of money, so they can't truly
love anybody because they're splitting their heart between all these
different people. Polyamorous people looking the other way, as I've sad,
they actually think it's very moral because they're being truthful.
Polyamorous relationships tend to be based on very open communication.
That's one of the rules is that is everybody still happy?
Is everybody still happy with their The boundaries are has
anybody upset anybody else? So it's very very open and
(41:33):
they also believe that, and in some ways the support
from this. You know, we are able to love many
friends at once, we are able to love many children
at once. They say, Actually, they don't split their heart.
It's not a zero some game that you get fifty
percent and you get fifty percent. Actually that each time
they take somebody into their lives, their heart just gets bigger.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Do you think we're all somewhat pretending to be monogamous?
Speaker 1 (41:53):
I think some people are happier with monogamy. We know
that partly from genetic point of view. So there are
some people, know I don't think struggle with it, but
I do think a reasonably significant number of people probably do.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Who do you think struggles with it? More men and women?
Speaker 1 (42:11):
It really depends. Do you know something that one of
the major misnomers in love research is that there is
much difference, that there's this major difference between men and
women that really isn't there really isn't. It's more about
who you are at your core, more about attachment style, personality,
your life experience, your genetics, all these sorts of things
are much more of a factor in whether or not
you will be comfortable with anogamy or any of those
(42:32):
aspects than whether or not your male or female.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
And again, you said that there's not a difference between
well being and satisfaction levels versus monogamous and polyamorous relationships.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Absolutely not. How do you know this because we've done
studies on it, We've asked, we've done we use the
same satisfaction scales about you know, how satisfied are you
in your relationship with various aspects of that relationship, and
they come out as being absolutely no different.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
For what it's worth, Babe, I'm happy with our relationship.
I'm more than happy being monogamous. I find it to
be a much much easier life.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Well, the only thing polyamorous people say is you have
to have a cracking Google calendar.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Yeah time, yeah, yeah, let's talk about the first one
thousand days. So you really believe that the first thousand
days of a child's life are the most critical. Yes,
And link to this is the role of both the
mother and the father. It's long been assumed that the
father is surplus to requirements, that they're not really that
important as long as they're you know, in the stereotypical context,
(43:30):
as long as they're providing for the family, they don't
really need to be around. Is that true? And what
do we need to know about how formative those first
thousand days are for a child?
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Okay, first of all, no, it's not true. It's absolutely fundamental.
I think for a child to get some input from
a father. I'm going to define father. In the West,
we're a bit obsessed with the term biological father, and
we always describe that as the real father, even if
he's not around, even if that child has been brought
up by stepfather and adoptive father what we call a
(44:01):
social father, which is a grandfather and uncle, a best
friend and older brother. When I say father, people assume
I mean biologal father. I don't. I mean the man
or men who have stepped in and done the job
that is the farther. So I want to make that
very clear. First of all, we know that young people
who grow up without that input, the risks of having
negative outcomes. Is much higher without having a male role
(44:24):
model or some male models in your life. We know
that they are much more likely to display antisocial behavior,
They are much more likely to turn to crime, they
are much more likely to have addiction issues, they are
much more likely to have mental health issues. And their
outcomes in terms of relationships going through their life, in
other aspects of their lives are much more negative. And
(44:45):
there is a reason for that. So men have a
very specific role in child development. And I wasn't expecting
to find this when I first started, but I've looked
at fathering around the world in many, many different cultures,
and how men arrive at that role is very different.
The fathering role is much more diverse than the mothering role.
(45:05):
It's partly because the mother's role is very tight by biology,
by pregnancy, child's birth, etc. Whereas men we call it
a facultative role, And what that means is it's much
more flexible. It's much more open to responding to changes
in the environment and adapting to them to help the
family survive. And we see that all the way around
the world. So dads do it lots of different ways.
It really depends in your environment. What the major risk
is so in our environment. You know, we don't really
(45:26):
have survival risks in our environment, not to the extent
that they do in some cultures. So as a dad
in societies where survival day to day survival is a problem,
whether it's a war zone or whether there are major,
major disease issues, then a dad's role there is to
keep that kid alive. If we look at other environments
where survival is reasonably secure but economic survival is very
(45:48):
on edge, then in those environments we tend to see
fathers again not particularly hands on in terms of caretaking
or nurturing. They are the person in that kid's life
who's going to teach them the skills they need to
go forward and be economically successful. So if you live
in a pastoral environment, then they will be taken into
the fields and they will be taught how to do
that role. And then they will be taken to the
markets and they will be taught how to negotiate and
(46:09):
build the social networks they need. And then in our environment,
where economics is reasonably secure comparatively, survival is reasonably secure comparatively,
then we are social survival is important in our world.
It really is who you know but what I found,
regardless of how you were doing it, was all fathers
have one major major role and it's a bit of
a technical termin I'll explain with it is they scaffold
(46:30):
the child's entry into the world beyond the family. And
what that means is they are the parent when it
comes to developing the skills, the neural connections, the biology,
the physiology that enables you to leave your family and
go out into the world and be successful, to thrive
and survive. And it starts when a baby is born.
(46:51):
So the attachments that a dad and a mum build
to that baby are just as powerful as each other,
but they are different. So a mum's attachment is upon nurture,
and what we tend to say with a mum and
child attachment is it's quite exclusive. So if you imagine
a mother, her major role with that child is to
nurture and protect, and so when she's with that child,
(47:13):
she will hold that child to her. It's very inward looking.
With dads, they do nurture, absolutely, they nurture, they do
all that kind of thing, but they use that nurturing
to build confidence in that child as a secure base,
which is what attachment's about, and what they actually do
is they turn the child to the world and they go, Okay,
you're safe with me. I am always here, but I'm
going to give you a push, and you're going to
(47:35):
go out into the world and you're going to see
what the world is like. And I'm going to be
the person who gives you the resilience and gives you
the social skills and gives you what you need to
be able to do that, and you can always come
back to me when it goes wrong. So what we
say with the father's attachment is it's based on nurture
and challenge. Mum is very nurturing. Dad is stimulation. I'm
going to stimulate you and you're going to go and
do something amazing. And that is why you need fathers
(47:57):
because those outcomes we have for kids who don't have
an input from a father figure, the reason why they
struggle with antisocial behavior is it's because dads are the
ones that underpin social behavior. Pro social behavior like helping, sharing, caring,
emotional regulation, and inhibition. You need to learn to regulate
your emotions and inhibit them appropriately to get on in
this world. You can't go into the school and you
(48:18):
cannot go into the workplace screaming your head off when
you get angry. That's not how it works. We know
that fartherest. When it comes to education, both mums and
dads have a pretty equal input in terms of academic success,
but fathers have a greater role in instilling appropriate learning
behavior being in the classroom, taking in what's going on,
cooperating with other people, cooperating with the teacher, not disturbing
(48:38):
everybody else, that kind of thing. They are the ones
that underpin that.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
How do they do that? Is it chemically or is.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
It it's several things. It's partly chemical. So we know that
one of the earliest behaviors you will see a father
do with the chart from about six months on is
a thing called rough and tumble play.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Rough and tumble play, okay.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
And men seem to be drawn to it. Not all
men do it, and we'll talk about the people who
don't find it comfortable. But most men, when we just
tell them to go and do something with their kid,
they're not going to do some coloring. They're going to
take the kid outside. They're going to throw it in
the air, they're going to chase it around the garden.
They're going to air aplane over their head. They're going
to come in, they're gonna bounce on the sofa, they're
going to do a little wrestling. There's lots of shrieking,
there's lots of energy, and we see pretty much all
(49:18):
Western fathers do that. And the reason for it is
too fold. First of all, it's a very quick way
of bonding with your child. Dads have to bond through interaction.
They don't have the head start of the child's birth,
which is a whole psuent army of bonding their hormtes,
so they do it through interaction and rough and double
player is a really time efficient way to do it.
You get a massive tidal way to bonding hormtes because
it's because it's so physical. So you get beatreundorphin because
(49:42):
there's lots of touch, there's lots of giggling, so all
of these things released doping, beatre and doorphin oxytocin. They
bond you tightly to the child you're playing with and
the child gets them as well. But also it's starting
to underpin some teaching about social skills because the basis
of all social behaviors Reciprocity is give and take, and
when we play with someone, it only remains if that
reciprocity is reasonably balanced. You learn empathy because you've got
(50:04):
to work out is this stealth fun for the other
person or are they no longer enjoying this? Have I
gone too far? You learn to deal with challenge. Rothent
tumble play can be pretty extreme, it can be a
little bit painful, it can be a little bit risky.
And so you're saying to the kid, assess the risk,
Assess the risk. Here's the challenge. Can you deal with
the challenge? And all of that underpins that child's neural
development first of all, but also you're showing by example
(50:26):
social skills. I'm saying reciprocity. But what's really interesting and
I love this piece of research, and this came out
from a group in Israel headed by Ruth Felderman, who
is a pioneer of neuroscience. In terms of children and
their parents, she found that dads and children have co
evolved to prefer to play with each other. Okay, so
when you're a parent, you will get a peak in
(50:47):
oxytocin from certain behaviors you do with your child. You'll
always get a bit of oxytocin because anything you do
with them is probably very nice, apart from maybe the tantrums.
But if you're a dad, that peak in oxytocin comes
from playing with your kid. And then when we look
at kids, why the peaking oxotosin release they get when
they're playing with their dads. Again, isn't when daddy gives
me a cuddle, which is nice, but you know, I
(51:09):
don't get a big release. It's when I play with daddy.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
So is that different to women.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
Yes, So women get their peak and activate of oxotosin
release from nurturing their choral and particularly from hugging them,
and kids get their peak in oxytocin when they interact
with mum, from mum's cuddles, not from playing with mum.
So naturally kids kind of gravitate towards dads when they
want to have fun, and dad, that's the kind of
thing he will choose to do with this child. Somethink
that's physical, something that's stimulatory, and that's what's really interesting.
(51:37):
And that's in a way why dad's kind of got
the monoco of oh, you're the fun parent, you do
all the fun stuff. But actually play is fundamental to
a child's development, absolutely fundamental to their social development and
also building that really critical bond with dad.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
If I was to have a baby, now, how would
my body, my brain, my body? How would it change?
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Okay, it would change in two ways. There's the biological
changes you were done to go. So this is something
that we didn't know about twenty years ago, and I
and other colleagues around the world have looked into this.
And the reason why we looked into it is because,
as I said, very rare to have human fathering, really
rare five percent of mammals. And the way evolution works
is it generally doesn't cause a whole new behavior to
(52:20):
evolve without giving you some sort of head start in
being able to do it. And so over time in
the last half a million years, as fatherhood evolved, men's
brains change, their psychology changes, their hormones change when they
become fathers to give you that prep to be a parent. So,
first of all, we see hormonal changes. The most studied
(52:41):
and I think probably the most significant is the drop
in testosterone that occurs when you become a father. So
you will have already experienced a drop in testosterone because
you're in a long term relationship, yes you have. So
when a man enters a long term relationship for a
first for the first time, he will experience a drop
in testosterone. Because testos stone is really great chemical if
(53:02):
you're dating, because it makes you more competitive and it
makes you more attractive if you're in a heterosexual relationship,
so it makes you more attractive. But when you start
living with someone or being in a long term relationship,
we kind of need you to shift your focus from
the horizon and looking for another date, and we need
you to focus on that one person because from an
evolutionary pard view, that person is going to be the
person you have kids with, and we'd quite like you
(53:23):
to stick around and look after those kids. So that happens.
When you become a father for the first time, it
drops again and it can be up to thirty percent,
so you lose a third of your testosterone. And the
reason for that, again is we need you to focus
in on the family. We can't have you looking to
the horizon for another mate. We need to focus on
because we know that children need input from more than
(53:43):
just month to survive.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
This sounds all very monogamous.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
I'll talk about it in a minute, okay, so you
focus in on that child. Testosterone is also when it's
very high, it blocks the bonding hormones, so dopen me
in oxytocin in particular have less of an effect. So
the test astrain drops also to enable you to start
bonding with that child because you are you are behind
(54:07):
in terms of bonding with that child because mum's gone
through pregnancy in most cases and given birth, so she's
had a head start. She's had a load of oxytocin, dopamine,
beater and orphan during the birth process. You haven't, so
we need to release those hormades as suit as we can.
One of the ways we do that is testosterone drops,
soir oxitosin and dopamine a more.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
Effective Which explains why some fathers say that they don't
feel bonded to their child in the early stages or before.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yeah, I'll explain why that is as well in a minute.
So that's oxytocin doping. And we also know, just generally
from studies where the men are fathers or not, men
with low testosterone tend to be more motivated to care
for children. So even if you're not a father, if
we present you with a crying baby. Men with very
high test austerone, the reaction to that is mainly aversive,
like okay, just take it away from me. And also
(54:51):
they get quite frustrated. They find it quite quite difficult
to deal with as a noise. Men with low testosterraine
tend to be more motivated to pick the baby up,
try and suite the baby and deal with And whilst
it's a difficult noise to hear, they tend not to
experience negative emotions in relation to it. So that drop
in testosterone is really really important. Over evolutionary time, we
(55:12):
think that people were probably socially monogamous for a period
of time which matched the period of time they needed
to ensure that our child's going to survive. So whilst
in our you know, in our culture it's like no
you will marry, tell you you will be monogamous to
tell you die, in evolutionary history that probably wasn't the case.
Fathers might have stuck around for probably at least until childhood,
(55:35):
which is between about five and ten. They might have
stayed along into the teenage years, depending upon how difficult
the environment was. And also this doesn't mean they weren't
having sex somebody or else, so this is social monogamy.
We also see changes in oxytocin rises. If you live
with your pregnant partner, it will start to rise in
pregnancy as well your partners, and that's there to make
(55:55):
sure first of all that your bond to your partner
titans because you're about to introduce some new into your
relationship and it's not going to be easy, so we
need that to be tight. But it's also to start
preparing you for after birth. We know that vasopressin also rises.
Vacidpressin is a sort of form of oxytocin, but in
non human mammals it's associated with defense of the nest,
(56:16):
and we think in male humans it's to do with
protection and motivation to protect that child. And finally we
see an increase in a parenting hormone known as prolactin,
and prolactin is only seen in males in species that
have investing fathers, and protacting again, is a parenting hormone
that motivates you to care. So you go through this
massive change in hormones. A lot of men say they
(56:37):
don't notice the drop in testosterone in terms of things
like strength, so I get the contact by a lot
of men saying, but I love weight training, it's just
going to ruin. No, it's not. It doesn't do anything
like that. Think of the number of Olympic athletes who
have kids. You're fine. What it does do is it
increases your emotional vulnerability. So quite often with fathers, you
will hear they're more empathetic after birth. And also they
(56:57):
find it harder to deal with emotionally difficult things like
on the news. Suddenly things on the news will make
them cry when they never cried before.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
Will they ever get their testosterone levels back.
Speaker 1 (57:06):
Only if you don't have contact with your child. So
if you don't have contact with your child, you don't
have to co reside with your child. These studies have
been done across cultures, including cultures where coresidence doesn't occur.
As long as you are in contact with your child, No,
they won't because you are still maintained in looking after
that child. If you lose contact with your child, yes,
they will go back up because the evolutionary drive is
(57:27):
to then reproduce again.
Speaker 2 (57:29):
So if I have a kid and then I stick
around and raise the kid, assuming I stick around, my
testosterone levels will never get back to the level it
was before I had the kid nop never. I mean
that's slightly. I mean, you know, I'll love my future cause.
Speaker 1 (57:43):
I'm sure I will say to Dad, because they do
worry about and I undertand why they worry about it
because they believe very much the testosterone is the male hormone.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
It isn't.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
It isn't. You know women have testosterone and it's one
of the sex hormones. It's not. It really isn't associated
with things like stress. You might find things like like
your if you have a tendency to aggression, you might
find that drops a little bit, and as I say,
you become more empathetic and you become more emotionally vulnerable.
But it's really it's not going to impact a huge
amount physiologically in you. So really don't worry about it.
(58:14):
And also you get the most amazing rewarding bond with
your kid in return, so you drop the testosterone that
you get this astonishing bond, so it swings them a roundabouts.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
You said earlier that if the father's not around, there's
implications for teenage mental health.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
Yes, so, because fathers underpin resilience through starting with reference
on will play, but carrying on through that child's life
and doing stimulatory activities with that kid. They're the ones
that underpin mental resilience, and obviously mental resilience is particularly
key for mental health also because they underpin scaffolding the
child's ability to operate in the social world. A lot
of the disorders we see in teenage young people are
(58:50):
associated with social situations, so social anxiety, eating disorders, self harm, depression, loneliness.
They tend to all exist within the social sphere. And
because of that, that's why it's actually the relationship you
have with your dad, particularly the attachment relationship you have,
So if it's a nice, secure attachment relationship, you are
much less likely to suffer from those disorders. And also
(59:11):
particularly you know how much time your dad spends with
you and inputs into you. It's important. So kids are
really interesting. They measure their importance to their parents in
different ways. If you say to them, how do you
know your importance to your mum, They'll say, well, my
mum does stuff for me. She makes sure I've got
my favorite cereal. She makes sure that I get picked
up from school and I can have my play dates,
and she makes sure my sports kit is washed, and
(59:33):
I mean it's all terribly gender specific. I do apologize,
but this is the data. If you say to the kid,
how do you know your importance to your dad? He
spends time with me. And we think it's probably cultural
because in our culture, dads are still more likely to
be out at work. So the precious thing you have
as a man is your time. And if I give
my time to you as a child, particularly if I
do something you're interested in, and I accept you as
(59:55):
an individual and say yeah, let's be enthusiastic about what
you want to do, then that is what underpins how
you feel, how important that chart feels, and that underpins
their self esteem.
Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
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I now have this everywhere I go when I travel
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(01:00:26):
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(01:00:46):
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I started my first business at twelve years old, and
(01:01:07):
I started more businesses at fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, and eighteen.
And at that time, what I didn't realize is that
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(01:01:28):
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And if you're looking to get your business started, go
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a one dollar per month trial. That's shopify dot com
slash bar. We talked to the top of this conversation
about how gender roles have shifted and how more women
are college educated and more women are in work and
they're climbing the economic ladder. This also means that mothers
(01:02:11):
are more likely to be around less than such a world,
especially when we consider the way that the offices have
been designed and the working week has been designed. Have
you thought much about the implications of an absent mother,
because we talked a lot about the absent father. Yeah,
but an absent mother or a mother who puts their
child into daycare or is working five days a week.
Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
I mustn't. I haven't because I don't study mothers. Mothers
is a massive amount of work done on and I'm
kind of filling the gaps in terms of fathers. To
be absolutely honest, the roles of a mum and a
dad in a heterosexual relationship have evolved to kind of
compliment each other. So they don't mirror each other. They
don't do the same thing. They compliment you. So, so
what happens when we take one of those away for
that child? There are two things to say to that.
(01:02:52):
First of all, in most children's lives, we talk about
single parent families, and what we're talking about is a
single parent raising that child. But actually, if we look
outside that particular diad, that particular couple, and we look
at who else is in putting into that child's life.
So quite often I study its obviously in relation to
absent fathers, what we tend to find is that child
has other people in their life who are men who input,
(01:03:15):
even if the mom hasn't recognized it. One of the
most powerful studies I read wasn't saying to a mum,
where are the father figures in your child's life. It
was saying to the kid, who are the important men
in your life? And the kid will go, oh, my
football coach or my maths teacher, or my mate John's
dad or they often recognize father figures. They don't call
them that, but they recognize men in their lives who
(01:03:36):
they look up to, who support them, who the parents
or the mom doesn't even think about. So that's the
first thing to say. Secondly, we know with gay fathers,
where a mom isn't in a caretaking role, the brain adapts. Okay,
so what happens if we put a heterosexual couple in
a scanner and we say, look at this video of
(01:03:56):
your child. We see different peaks in activation in the brain.
So in mum, we see a peak in activation at
the core of the brain here, Okay, very ancient. It's
partly there because mothering is as old as time, so
it's in the ancient, unconscious part of the brain. But
this is where nurture is, attachment, risk, detection, all those
things you need to be able to do, and then
(01:04:17):
we get that peak there. However, if we look at
dad's activation, he does have some activation here. Obviously he does.
He's very capable of nurturing and protecting. But actually the
peak in activation is in the neocortex. This is this
bit of the brain. This is the conscious brain. It's
much younger, and that shows you that fathering is younger.
It's about half a million years old. And we see
activation here in the social part of the brain. Okay,
(01:04:40):
so this is the prefrontal cortex which is here, and
the orbitofrontal cortex, which is kind of above your eyes,
and that's where all your social skills sit, your ability
to do everything socially. And then at the back of
the brain. We have two areas at the back of
the brain which link to empathy, which is the basis
of relationships and mentalizing. So that's that ability to know
someone's intention. You need it just to have a conversation,
but you all so need it to spot somebody who's
(01:05:01):
going to maybe do you bad in some way, cheat, lie, whatever,
those sorts of things again important in the social world,
and his peaking activations are there. Again, Mum does have
some peaks in activaty some activation here, but it's not
as intense and that underpins those two different roles. So
Dad's attachment is new, Mum's attachment is very ancient and nurturing.
If you have a gay primary caretaking father without a
(01:05:23):
mother involved, what you see is you see both bits
light up at the same intensity. So he gets the
dad activation obviously being a man, but he also gets
the mum's activation. And what's really absolutely fascinating is if
we look at that brain, there is a new, a
brand new neural connection between this bit of the brain
(01:05:44):
here and this bit of the brain here, so they
can communicate.
Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
So is a woman not playing a unique role at
all in raising Well, arguably.
Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
Neither is a man, because if we look in if
we were to look in probably a gay woman's brain,
we'd see the same thing. And it's not saying that
they're not paying unique roles in a heterosexual relationship. They
absolutely do. But what it's showing you human children are
incredibly difficult to raise. They are pretty much, apart from
maybe dolphins and a bit of an ape, the most
(01:06:15):
intense kid to raise because they're because they're born so helpless. Okay,
and the only way a human baby can survive is
is it gets enough input. So the human brain, the
human parenting brain, is astonishingly plastic and it will adapt
to make sure that that child gets what it needs.
And so where we've got one of the adults missing
(01:06:35):
mum or dad, it will adapt to say, okay, the
remaining adult or whether even if there's two dads or
two moms that primary caretaking one, their brain will alter
to make sure that kids start it gets one of needs.
Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
Kind of goes to the top of what we were
saying about do you need dads then, because if you know,
we talked about the role that dads play and play
as I've read your research around the impact that a
father has on a kid's ability to speak yes is
better in children who had a father present. But if
you could just have two women doing it, doesn't that
(01:07:07):
mean that we don't necessarily need the father.
Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
It's not that you don't necessarily father. I mean the
same argument you say you don't necessarily need a mother
in a gay parenting relationship with the fathers. What it's
saying is in a heterosexual relationship we get this complementarity.
We can't get that in a gay relationship. So what
we've got instead is this sliced adaptation. Unfortunately, the studies
haven't been done sufficiently on gay parenting, which is which
(01:07:31):
is a massive omission. I'm afraid science always starts with
heterosexual and narrows it down that we don't know exactly whether,
for example, a gay parent two male parents maybe there's
a little bit missing because of a lack of female input,
or whether with two female parents as the mac because
there's no male direct male input. The other thing to
(01:07:51):
say is around these families, you know, I can't. There
are very few gay parenting families where there are no
women involved at all, and there are very few lesbian
couples who have no male involvement at all. So it's
a very complex mess really in terms of what the
inputs are. But I think the study that discovered this
were just astonished at the amazing plasticity of the brain
(01:08:12):
that a man who did not go through pregnancy and
childbirth and does not have this evolutionarily ancient instinct in
terms of motherhood could actually adopt this role and we
would see this activation. That's in a way, the biggest
take home from it is that it will adapt in
such a powerful way to make sure that child gets
what it needs.
Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
So do we need fathers, yes, Why what is it
that that fathers bring that can't be done by some
other means.
Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
Though, because we don't yet know first of all, whether
these adaptations in the female brain, for example, are enough,
because that research hasn't been done. And secondly, there are
very few children who don't have a father. Actually, if
you look at their social grouping now, it might not
be a father ho co resides. It might not be
a father who they see that freak. But it could be,
(01:09:01):
you know, and when we remember we're talking about grandfathers, uncles, teachers, coaches,
whoever it might be. It might be a whole team
of men who step in and out at different times.
It's very rare that a child doesn't have any male
input in their life. And that is what a father is.
It's not your biological father.
Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
So is it that we need a father figure around.
But we don't necessarily need a father in the home.
Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
You do not have to co reside. One of the
things that drives me slightly around the bend is when
people talk about absent fathers. Sometimes the father is truly absent, absolutely,
but in some cases he's not. He just doesn't live there.
And that's what we've got to be very clear about.
You do not have to co reside. And there are
cultures in the world where co residence is not the norm,
(01:09:47):
and so it's about being in your child's life. You
do not have to live with them.
Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
Are we getting more fatherless as a Western society.
Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
It would seem so at the moment in terms of
biological fathers. Yes, unfortunately, and that's one of the things
that we really need to focus on. I've recently become
a trustee of a new policy unit, which is the
Center for Research into Men and Boys, and my role
there is to look at the role of fathers, how
we support fathers, how we support boys in having male
figures in their lives. Because we are seeing because divorce
(01:10:20):
has become more culturally acceptable, possibly because of longer life
spans and relationships aren't asking as long. There's lots of
reasons why we are getting more children who do not
have fathers in their lives. It's also a major issue
in the US. I know, you know Richard Reeves and
I work with Richard Reeves on it and dan is Issha.
And that's why we have to start looking in a
(01:10:41):
creative way about what a father is because those kids
don't necessarily have their biological father in their life, but
they need somebody and that might be encouraging links within
the community. It might be helping single mothers identify those
male figures within their environment and supporting those male figures
and coming forward. It might be that we need more
organizations like Latani Dad's which is an organization in the
(01:11:02):
UK that provides male father figures mentors to boys who
don't have a father in their life.
Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
Is there anything better than a biological father, Yes, a father,
there is, So even if it's a sort of a stepfather.
Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
Or if it's just because you don't get to become
a father. Indeed, you don't get to become a mother
just because you happen to conceive a child.
Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
So from a development perspective, it doesn't matter if there's
no difference in biological fathers versus you know, Dave, who
don't care of me.
Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
Because the changes we spoke about happen whether you're biologically
related to that child or not, because they happen through interaction.
So any man who steps in and does the job, well,
see the hormone changes, well, see the brain changes which
we haven't spoken about, well, see the psychological changes. They
will see them all because they happen through interaction. So
you don't. You're not as a biological father. The moment
(01:11:49):
you conceive that child suddenly get this mysterious ability to
be a father. You don't. It happens because you happen
to be interacting and living and inputting into that child's life.
So no, there is no hierarchy. It's are you doing
the job? Yes? I am. Are you doing it in
a good and healthy and positive way? Yes I am. Okay,
you get to be dad.
Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
So you really you're making the case for father figures. Yeah,
in a child's life versus and a child growing up
without a father figure at all, Yes, it is going
to have worse outcomes.
Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
There is a risk they won't necessarily, but the statistics
are quite powerful in terms of those outcomes. There was
a study done recently in the UK by the Center
for Justice called Lost Boys, and that was looking at
and one aspect of that was looking at boys and
their outcomes if they don't have a far figure, and
it is quite powerful in terms of the increased risk
of having negative outcomes.
Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
So, if you're in a lesbian relationship and you're so
two women, are you saying that you really should make
sure that the child is exposed to a father figure.
Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
Yeah, I would say that. I would say that. I
mean some people I get attacked for saying things like that.
And I'm not trying to say there are gender roles
or any of those sorts of things. But we have
children have evolved. The reason why your humor fatherhood evolved
is because children evolved to be brought up by a
group of people, and part of that group of people
was a father figure. Now, as we see from cultures
around the world, it does not have to be the
(01:13:17):
biological father, but they have a father figure or a
team of father figures. It doesn't have to be one person,
it could be several people.
Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
And does that go the other way if you're in
two men.
Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
Now, I would always advise that that's how children to
have those two inputs. So find those women in your
life and ask them to step in and do that.
And another anomaly that we hear a lot is that
it's particularly important for boys. Actually it is critical for boys,
but arguably it's kind of touch and goes to whether
it's more critical for girls. The data coming out about
(01:13:51):
daughters and the impact that fathers have on daughters is
pretty powerful stuff, and so it's not just that we
need these father figures so always know how to grow
up to be positive masculine figures, to be men, whatever
it might be. It's also really critical for girls that
they have a father figure around.
Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
What's the data coming out regarding the dad daughter bond.
Speaker 1 (01:14:14):
So what we're finding is daughters who grow up with
a secure attachment to their father, they have increased abilities
and to increase success in terms of academics, in terms
of education, they have increased career success. They tend to
have much better mental health, they tend to be much
(01:14:35):
better relationships, they tend to have less risky, particularly sexual relationships,
and they have just better well being scores, and they
are much more liked, as I've said, to have stable,
good relationships in their older life. In that adult life.
Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
When you think about society and how we're forming our relationships,
especially around child rearing, yes, well, what are we increasingly
getting wrong here? I spoke to Erica Commissa here. She's
very passionate about the detrimental impact of daycare right because
she feels that the mother's plays a critical role in
(01:15:10):
those first two years, and then the father plays a
critical role beyond from about two years onwards, when the
kid starts to get into that play face.
Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
I would argue with her on that point, but okay.
Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
Which point would you argue on the second point.
Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
Yeah, dad is critical from the moment that child is born,
and I get quite upset when I get father's out.
I met her father the other day at an event.
I think his baby was six months old, and he
was a dad worker. This guy he worked with dad's
He was a community worker who worked with the dads
with older kids. He said, oh, I've had it was like, congratulations,
you might yeah, but you know, I know I'm not
(01:15:42):
particularly important to tell you till the baby's, like, you know,
at least eighteen months, two years. So I'm just changing nappies,
but I know that I'm not really doing much. And
I was just like, oh my god, I literally cannot
believe this man is saying this bearing around what he
does for a living. I was like, you are absolutely
critical from the moment that baby is born. You are critical?
Why because the baby's brain is growing. Babies are so human,
Babies are born months before they should be. And the
(01:16:05):
reason for that is because two anatomical and normally is
we are bipedal and we have an enormous brain. At
full size, our brain is six times bigger than it
should be for a mammal of our body weight. It's
highly uncephalized, so encephialization is all this folded and folded
and fed. So it's folded like this because we've got
a rammit into our skull. If you look at the
brain of a mouse, it's smooth. So when we became
bipedal about fully bipedal about sort of one point eight
(01:16:27):
million years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:16:28):
Bipedal meaning two legs.
Speaker 1 (01:16:29):
If you look at something that walks on four legs,
like an ape, a chimp who's our clothes, their legs
are quite wide apart, so their birth canal's really broad.
Ours is really because we've had to come in like
this to maintain being able to stand upright. So if
we tried to birth our babies when their brains were
nearly fully grown, like happens in other apes, Mum would die,
baby would die, and our species would have died out
a very long time ago. So about one point eight
(01:16:52):
million years ago, we reached a threshold where the brain
had to do some growing after we were born. And
the way that we dealt with that was we birthed
our babies early. Be selected to birth our babies early,
and that's why they're so completely helpless. Because if you
look at a chimp baby, a chimp baby's pretty mobile
just after it's born. It's got pretty good motor function,
it can hold onto stuff, it can do various things.
(01:17:12):
Can't feed itself, but it can. Whereas human babies, they
can't do anything for themselves. They literally can't. They can't focus,
they can't hold their head up, they can't move, they
can't coordinate their limbs, they can't clean themselves, they can't
do anything. And that's because they're born far too early.
They should be in months longer essentially, so we have
this period of rapid brain growth after we're born. And
(01:17:34):
because the main bit of the brain that's growing at
this point is this massive prefrontal cortex, which is the
social bit. The environment in which you grow up is critical,
and who is really important in the social bit the dad.
So from the moment your baby is born and this
is growing, dad needs to be having an input because
this is where it's growing. Mum is also obviously vital,
(01:17:57):
but we have to have both parents involved, or you
have to have that input at that point so these
dads who believe all people who believe that dad's only
important off to two ars. I'm sorry, you have a
fundamental misunderstanding of how the brain develops and of child development,
because you need to start teaching that child by in
putting into their childs, by giving that sensory input. In particular,
(01:18:17):
human babies need a lot of touch, they need a
lot of smell, they need a lot of all that
kind of thing. You need to be doing that as
early as possible, because this is growing from the moment
it comes out.
Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
Is it fair to say that in that zero to
two phase, mothers are more important.
Speaker 1 (01:18:30):
No, because they do different things. They do different things.
Mothers tend to be more involved, partly because of the
fact that, from a biological point of view, women give
birth if you're breastfeeding, they're the only ones who can
do that. So we are tied in terms of having
to do that. The other thing we'd say is also
(01:18:50):
giving birth is a really really tricky thing to do,
and it's physically and emotionally utterly draining, so you need
a period of recovery, and therefore you are the one
who's basically at home. In the Western context, you know,
in non Western context, a baby from the moment it's
born generally and some cultures will be careful by both
my man dad. It's only because we have this capitalist
(01:19:11):
system where someone's going to go and earn some money
that so I wouldn't necessarily argue mums are more important.
They are in a position from a biological point of
view that they're going to be there. They are just
going to be there, and in our system that means
somebody else it doesn't have to be there, and that's dad,
and he'll go and earn the money to support the family.
But they need the input from both.
Speaker 2 (01:19:28):
Is it fair to say then that the primary caregiver
is the most important, And what I mean by that
is the baby's going to form the strongest attachment to
the person taking most care of it, and therefore its
attachment style will be shaped by the relationship to that
primary caregiver.
Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
It's really tricky to say, because yes, primary caregivers are
really important in terms of being most of the environment
of development in those early days, particularly if this is
what we call I don't really like calling the secondary
care But the other parent is out and about and
therefore not present the environment in which a baby grows
isn't just about whose care taking them, who's giving them
a hug. One of the things I really always talk
(01:20:03):
to parents to be about is your relationship builds that
environment as well. So parents are actually babies are also
actually taking on board the dynamics between their parents. And
one of the things that I always try to get
into ANTIINATA courses is preparing the parenting relationship because actually
you need to build an environment which is as calm
(01:20:25):
and as reciprocal and as safe as you can do
for that child. And that means, for example, before you
have a baby, learning good conflict management style, you're gonna
have an argument. Okay, it's not about having an argument.
It's about the reconciliation of that argument. It's about the
resolution of that argument. So it's about that. It's about
understanding difference. You're going to parent in different ways that
could be really challenging to some couples. They find it
very difficult, so you prepare them for that. So the
(01:20:48):
environment is not just the primary care taker. And that's
what's fascinating about humans is human babies. It is enough saying.
It's a true saying. Are raised by a village. So
the environment of development isn't just a primary care taking pair.
It's everybody who's around that child as well. And in
our world that might be family, that might be friends.
Where we live go great distances from our families, so
(01:21:08):
sometimes that's more professionals that have an input into that
child's life.
Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
I guess I'm trying to figure out what's optimal in
my relationship because I'm probably about tend into parenthood. Yeah,
And I'm trying to understand, you know, I'm trying to
understand how I should configure my situation in those early
years with my partner and me. We both work. My
job is requires me to fly a little bit more
than hers, but just because that's the way that I've
(01:21:34):
chosen my career to be. She spends more time at home,
but still very very busy, still flying around the world
doing her own thing. So I'm thinking, when that baby arrives,
what should we based on everything you know about humans
and human history and the human brain and everything that's interconnected,
what's the optimal optimal scenario for me and my partner?
Speaker 1 (01:21:52):
Do you know? I think it's really hard because what
I always say to parents, because parents are really good
at beating themselves up. Is happy parents make happy babies.
So first of all, you have to do what works
for you. And everybody's circumstances are different and there are
needs that everybody's going to have. So yes, your baby
has needs in terms of nurturance, in terms of support,
in terms of building attachments, but your baby also needs
(01:22:12):
a roof over their head, and they need food on
the table, and they need all that, and they need
whoever's caring for them to be healthy. So it really
depends upon what works for you in an ideal world.
Somebody asked me the other day because at the moment
in the UK we're having a lot of campaigns about
paternity leave. In the UK. At the moment, you can
have two weeks, which is frankly laughable, and the dad
can have two weeks. The dad can have two weeks,
(01:22:33):
not if you're self employed, but if you're employed. If
you're self employed, you're kind of on your own. We're
trying to push the government to take it to six weeks,
which isn't our ideal, but it's how far we think
we might be able to push them. Somebody asked me
the other day what would be the ideal for a dad,
I'm afraid I started at six months please, that would
be lovely. In places like Sweden, the dad gets a
(01:22:53):
year because babies develop with different inputs from differ people.
As I know, you're in a heterosexual couple, so your
baby will need your dad's input and mum's input and
they will need those in ever whatever configuration works for you.
So it might be that some period, particularly after childbirth
is off, your partner is going to have to have
(01:23:14):
time off. She is not going to you know, it's
very hard to race back to work after you've had
a baby. Some women manage it. I think they're astonishing.
I certainly couldn't have done it. So that's fine, you
go do that, but she's going to need a period
of time. But then, are you in a situation where
you can work a little bit flexibly? So is there
a point where you can say, okay, you go and
do some work and I'll take the baby for a
bit and you switch that way. Now, obviously, if the
(01:23:36):
mom is breastfeeding, it's harder because she is tied more
to the baby. You can express milk as much as
you like, but it's quite difficult as a breastfeeding mother
to go off on a work trip for a week.
Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
So the first point there is really that she's probably
going to need to take some time.
Speaker 1 (01:23:48):
She is going to need to take some time unless
she is in a position where she really thinks that
she is going to be capable of physically and psychologically
going back to work. I've met women who do it,
but it's really hard now, particularly when in those first
early weeks. Actually she's going to need you, or she's
going to need someone to help her. My husband is
self employed. My husband actually only managed to have two
(01:24:10):
days of paternity leave before he had to go back
to work, so my wonderful mom stepped in. But she's
going to need somebody there. In an ideal well, as
long as you were happy to do that, that would be
you because your baby would really benefit from that. And
then from there you have to take it the way
it works for you in terms of your career, because
whoever looks after that baby, it doesn't have to be
mum or dad. It can be a mixture of both.
Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
But I'm able to make concessions, and maybe I'm in
a privileged position where I can make I can kind
of design my life a little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:24:36):
Well, from an ideal of point of view, then you
will at that point try and be with your baby
as much as you can and do that and do
as many of the tasks with your baby you can,
because actually, from your point of view as a man men,
the psychological changes that a man goes through when he
becomes a father, it's known as the transition to parenthood.
In most men who work, it takes two years. And
(01:24:57):
one of the reasons it takes two years, whereas in
her mother it takes about nine mins, is because one
of the factors in how quickly you transition to adopting
that identity and how comfortable you feel with that identity,
it is down to competency. How competent do you feel
as a parent. Now, many Western dads they don't get
the opportunity to reach competency very quickly because they have
to go to work, so they don't get to care
(01:25:18):
for their baby. And that's one of the things we
know that men who get that chance transition to parenthood
much quicker. Because they reach competency quicker, they absorb the
identity of being a dad quicker, and that is better
for them.
Speaker 2 (01:25:28):
This transition to parenthood is that a biological thing.
Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
It's underpinned by the biology, by the brain changes on
hormone changes you're going to undergo, but it's a psychological state.
So it's about configuring your identity and absorbing that particularly
new aspect of your identity into your sense of being
and also feeling comfortable with that. We know men who
struggle with that transition are much more likely to suffer
(01:25:53):
from post natal depression, for example, and post natal depression
has a fundamental impact not only on your partner but
also on your child, So we want to be protective
against that.
Speaker 2 (01:26:03):
So she needs some time. She's going to need me
to support reasons in those early weeks. And then the
more time I can spend with my child, the more
I'm going to psychologically.
Speaker 1 (01:26:13):
Adjust to the more and the quicker you're going to
build your bond, because, as I said earlier, you build
your bond through interaction, and your partner's going to have
a head start she just is because of pregnancy and
child and if she's breastfeeding as well. Breastfeeding is really
good for releasing oxytocin. You have to do it through interaction,
and in those early weeks with the baby. They're very dependent,
and particularly if your partner is breastfeeding, they're very mon
(01:26:33):
focused because she is the source of food and newborn
babies feed for ages. So a lot of men say
to me, I want to build a relationship, but I
literally cannot find an in So what we say is
make something special, to make something that's yours. It could
be bathtime, it could be reading your baby a book.
It's never too early to begin reading your baby book.
Or a really good one is baby massage. Baby massage
(01:26:54):
is great because touch is the biggest release you of
bonding hormones there are. If you massage your baby, your
baby's getting all those lovely hormones and so are you,
so you're building that bond between you. You're close enough
that so your baby's getting sensory and put particularly sense
of smell. So baby's vision is not great when they're born,
but their sense of smell is brilliant because they're little mammals,
so they're starting to really get your smell and that's
(01:27:14):
going to help them attached to you. We also know
baby massage is one of the only really good interventions
that prevents postnatal depression in men.
Speaker 2 (01:27:22):
So I love that I've just had this little flashing
my head of all the babies that just got a
massage because you said that, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (01:27:28):
They're all blissed out. I mean, there's some brilliant videos
on YouTube, or if you want to learn, you don't
have to go to your class. Watch there's wonderful videos
of baby massage and whole classes of men massaging babies.
I mean, it's brilliant. So you also want to be
there because you need to build that bond and the
only way you're going to do that is interaction. And
so and as your baby develops, that interaction becomes easier
because the baby will start babbling, they'll start smiling. About
(01:27:49):
six to eight weeks, they'll start smiling and they'll start
smiling at you, and that's just you know that you
can forgive them anything when they do that. And then
they'll start, you know, really reacting when you come in,
being please to see you. Then they'll start giggling. And
then at about six months, if you are a rough and
tumble dad, you can start doing very gentle, rough and
tumble play with them and you can just take it
from there. The interaction grows more and more and more.
(01:28:10):
One of the things we have to prepare men for,
which I do a lot when I work with men
during pregnancy is the delay in bonding. So we have
this idea that baby's going to come out and we're
going to feel a flood of love and it's going
to be it's going to be like, oh, you know, shining, amazing, wonderful.
That doesn't happen with women a lot of the time,
but men find it very difficult because because they grow
(01:28:32):
their bond through interaction, when the baby comes out, they
don't have a recognition of connection. It's like, yes, that's
my baby, that's my genetic baby, it's genesetically related to me.
I am a father. I will look after it, but
it's very conscious. When I talk to my dad's quite
often when I visit them at two weeks, a lot
of them are worrying about the bond because they're not
feeling how they thought they would feel. They're looking at
their partner who's had a head start and thinking, well,
(01:28:55):
she's the gold standard of bonding, she's amazing at it.
I'm failing. My baby doesn't like me. I'm rubbish at this,
and that's not good for their mental health and what
they tend to do is withdraw from the baby, which
is the worst thing you can do. But then when
I speak to them at six months with the baby,
they all say, I love my baby deeply, and it's
categorically different to how I felt at the start, and
(01:29:15):
that's because they've had to interact for that time to
build that bond.
Speaker 2 (01:29:18):
Is it fair to say that the woman's bond comes
more hormonally and the farthest reaction comes more from interaction.
Speaker 1 (01:29:25):
Yeah, because you will get your hormones from your interaction,
where she has got her hormones mostly at the start
from being pregnant and giving birth and breastfeeding and breastfeeding,
so she's getting lots of physiologically based hormones, and she
will also get hormones from interaction. Obviously she will, but
she's ahead of you.
Speaker 2 (01:29:41):
You're gonna have to massage that baby together.
Speaker 1 (01:29:43):
You are really gonna have to message that baby.
Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
We'll play with them. I guess that's the other thing
you said. Yeah, you mentioned something before we started recording
which is curious to me and I've never heard of before,
which is you mentioned love drugs. Yes, I've never heard
of that before. Okay, I mean what's that like MDMA
or something.
Speaker 1 (01:29:57):
Yes, so we kind of probably know so just about
enough about the neurosciance of love now, particularly neurochemicals which
underpin it that should we wish to, we could finally
produce the elixir of love. So since we've written things down,
we have been fascinated with finding the elixir of love.
There's loads of ancient texts about potions that will make
you fall in love. It's something that as humans we've
(01:30:19):
always wanted, and it's partly because love is unpredictable and
uncontrollable and humans really can't deal with that. We like
to know what is going to happen, and we like
to be able to control it as far as we can.
So wouldn't it be great if you could pop a
pill or drink something which meant that when you went
out on a Friday night you were really good at
(01:30:40):
either being like the bell of the ball and attracting people,
or you could somehow get to be more attractive to people,
Or if you were in or you could make someone
fall in love with you, or if you're in a
long term relationship with a struggling there was some pill
that would help that long term relationship, and we are
kind of at that stage now with the neurosctance where
that would potentially be possible. And there are certainly research
(01:31:01):
groups who are looking into what chemicals are already out
there which kind of mimic that neurochemistry. Now there are
two big ones that we already have. The first is oxytocin.
Of course, oxytocin is synthesized. We use it in childbirth,
It induces childbirth and in studies where we wanted to
work out the impact of oxytocin on social behavior in
(01:31:21):
humans in labs, we squirt it up people's noses. You
can squirt it up people's noses and see what oxytocin
and what it does, if you want to know, in
most people is it makes them more empathetic, It makes
them more open to chatting to people, It makes them
more sociable, It makes them more positive about the people
around them from a social context. So brilliant. So one
of the possibilities is you produce synthetic oxytocin and you
(01:31:42):
sell it to people. And in fact, a few years
ago and I think they've taken it down there, there
was a drug on Amazon and eBay called oxy love.
It's a little thing like a prepa, like an eye
drop thing. What it would do if you squirted up
your nose is hopefully it would do what oxytocin does
in the normalological context. It would quire your amigdala. It
would make you more confident, it would make you feel
(01:32:05):
more open to starting relationships. You'd be better at chatting
to people. So it's like kind of like you know,
the you know, a couple of glasses of wine before
you go out. It makes you feel a little bit
more confident. It would be a little bit like that,
and that's one of the things they're looking into. The
issue with it is that you cannot guarantee the outcome
of using it. So what has been found is in
the vast majority of people it does what it should,
(01:32:27):
but there is a significant minority of people where it
does exactly the opposite, and it actually increases basically what
we call ethnocentrism, racism, bigotry, because what happens is they
become more tightly bonded to people they think are in
their in group, but if they perceive you to be
in their outgroup, they become more racist. So it makes
(01:32:47):
you identify more with what you perceived to be or
in group. Now, until you can arm that out, that
is not a drug you can release onto the market,
because that is not something you want to happen. Investigations
seem to have shown that it's something to do with genetics,
that some people's oxytocin receptor gene is slightly different, and
it's those people who will get the ethnocentrism result rather
than the socially confident result. So that's a problem, and
(01:33:11):
you can't go any further with oxytocin until you are
now that particular problem. The second one, which is more
encouraging from a scientific point of view, is MDMA ecstasy,
And for many years, people have anecdotically reported who use
ecstasy recreationally that it makes you feel overwhelming sensations sort
of love. It makes you feel very bonded to everybody
you're with. We know from lab studies that people who
(01:33:33):
take ecstasy on a regular basis actually become more empathetic
over time. It actually seems to permanently alter something. So
it seems to be possibly something a bit like Beecher
and orphin, which it underpins long term love. Great, so
they're engineering MDMA at the moment to try and find
out what the dosage to be and how we could
give it to people. And it's being used in marriage
therapy in the US at the moment as a trial
(01:33:54):
to see if it can assist in marriage therapy because
a lot of people who go to marriage therapy are
very entrenched in their position. They've lost empathy, they've lost
the ability to see the other point of view. And
so if you microdose ecstasy, which I don't suggest anybodyho
does with our clinical support, do you go into this session.
It opens up your empathy and you make progress because
of it. And there's been reasonably good results from marriage
therapy in a clinical setting. The issue with MDMA isn't
(01:34:17):
that it has different outcomes for people, to be honest,
some people it works and some people it just doesn't.
So you could take it for that reason and it
just wouldn't do what it's supposed to do. Fine. The
issue with MDMA is more around ethics because MDMA is
a powerful drug and we don't know yet what its
long term consequences would be. For example, if you did
(01:34:37):
take it for many, many years. The second thing we
don't really know is what happens if you stop. So
let's say you started a relationship taking MDMA. First ethical question,
should you tell the person you're in a relationship with? Secondly,
what happens if you stop? You get to the point where,
for whatever reason you decide to stop, is that love
going to go away? And again, if you haven't told
(01:34:58):
the person, you're kind of if it does go away,
mucking around with their life without them actually realizing that
that relationship was based upon an artificial stimulant. Essentially, we
have anecdotal We don't actually know whether it would stop
because we haven't done long term enough studies. Anecdotically, from
the recreational community, there have been stories about people who
have started relationships whilst clubbing taking ecstasy. Particularly one guy
(01:35:21):
who used to go back to his hometown every weekend,
take ecstasy, go clubbing, metagirl, but used to go away
to work during the week So every time he saw
his girlfriend in the first few months, it was at
the weekend. There were both he was on ecstasy, she wasn't,
and he fell in love with her and this was wonderful,
and they carried on and eventually they decided that actually, no,
we need to stop this long distance thing. She needs
(01:35:42):
to move and come with me. We think this has
got a future. She does that. Trouble is during the
week he's not on ecstasy, and quite quickly he realizes
he doesn't love her. Now he has uplifted up, you know,
upheaval of her whole life. Now he didn't do that
on purpose. He did not know that that was what
the impact would be. But if that's the impact of
a love drug, we have a problem. What do you
(01:36:03):
do in relationships with power and balances? What if you're
an abusive relationship and somebody gives it you without you
knowing and keeps you in that relationship because of it.
So there are lots of ethical questions. I think the
issue with love drugs is they will probably come because
they well be hugely commercially successful if they get a
(01:36:24):
commercial license. When I do talks, and I get to
this bit before I've even mentioned look, I ask people
to raise their hand and say, if a drug could
do this, would you take it? Fifty percent of the
audience raise their hand and say yes, I would. So
then you tell them what all the problems are, and
you tell them what the ethics might be. And at
the end I say again, would you take it? At
least tell twenty percent of the audience would now, because
(01:36:45):
love and dating is such a multi billion dollar industry.
If we get to the point where this can be
commercially produced, someone is going to make a lot of money.
And that's why I think it's probably on the horizon
unless the rules are so strict that it's only in settings,
and even then people get around rules. So that's the
issue with love drugs. The other one is the ssriyes,
(01:37:07):
which are depressed for depression. People who are on SSRIs
realize that they reduce your emotional abilities, they reduce your libido,
they reduce sensations of love, and so it has been
suggested again that SSRIs are engineered in some way to
help people deal with love trauma. So people who have
experienced very bad relationships and not that you can forget it.
(01:37:28):
Do you remember the film of Eternal Sunshine. Okay, it's
about a guy who wants to wipe his brain in
terms of a really bad relationship, and that's kind of
what suggested this could do. SSRIs can't do that, you
cannot wipe a memory, but they could maybe take away
some of the salients, some of the negative salients. The
issue again with that is that there are seventy two
countries in the world where homosexuality is still illegal, and
(01:37:51):
we know there are certain This was a brilliant book
called Love Drugs talked about a very extreme religious community
which was giving young men who had shown homosexual tendencies
ssriys to reduce their homosexual tendencies. And that in itself
is I believe, ethically unacceptable. And therefore, again we've got
(01:38:13):
to be aware that if we produce drugs, what could
they possibly be used for which is actually unacceptable and
how are we going to deal with that as a population.
So I think anything which comes into our intimate relationships,
like love drugs or AI or whatever, we have to
have that conversation now because getting it wrong has profound
impacts on our futures and on our health.
Speaker 2 (01:38:36):
Let's talk about attachment styles and monogamy and the neurodiversity
components of this. So if we start with attachment styles,
it's been so much said about attachment styles. Can you
sort of give my views a overview of what attachment
styles are and what we need to know about attachment
styles as relates to falling and holding on too love.
Speaker 1 (01:38:57):
Okay, I think the first thing you used understand is
what is an attachment reallytionship. Attachment relationships are very rare
in your life. You will have had them with whoever
brought you up, whoever cared for you, particularly in the
first two years of life. That's particularly significant. You will
have them with romantic partners, though not all romantic partners,
and you might have one with a best friend. They're
(01:39:17):
very emotionally intense. We recognize them for several criteria. First
of all, they're developmentally significant, so attachment relationships have the
ability to change your psychology now as a child. They
actually have the ability to change your actual brain architecture
as well, particularly in those first two years. Because babies
are born without their brains fully developed, that's why they're
(01:39:38):
so helpless. And in the first two years your brain
is growing very rapidly, and the environment to which you
are raised is going to fundamentally underpin the architecture of
your brain. So that's developmentally very significant. That first attachment
relationship you have with your parents, parents' careers, whoever has,
whoever's bringing you up. Babies will attach to literally anybody
who's meeting their needs to be honest, and that will
(01:39:59):
fundamentally or time your brain in either in a good
way or unfortunately in a less good way, depending on
how you're brought up. When you have a romantic relationship,
what they can do is they can alter your psychology,
particularly how anxious you are about being abandoned in that
relationship and how comfortable you are with emotional and physical intimacy.
Because I will tell you a story. When I met
my husband, I was very worried about him leaving me,
(01:40:23):
him abandoning me, and I dealt with that by being
monumentally clinging. And over time, we've been married for nearly
twenty five years, I became secure because he disapproved my
fear that he was going to leave, and I am
now secure. So he fundamentally changed my psychology. So they
can do that. And in romantic relationships, there are four
types of attachment relationship, and we place you in one
(01:40:46):
of those sectors based upon two different factors. The first
is how anxious you are about abandonment. That's the first one.
We ask you lots of questions to work out how
anxious you are about that. The second one is how
much you want to maintain proximity. So again, we'll ask
you questions about how close you like to be to
the person, whether you maintain closeness because you're anxious, or
(01:41:07):
whether you maintain closeness because you love intimacy, or whether
you run away from intimacy at a rate of knots,
And depending on how you answer, we put you in
one of four categories. So if you are not anxious
in relationships about abandonment, but you are very comfortable with
proximity emotional, physical intimacy, then you're secure and it's what
it sounds like. You are very comfortable in your individuality.
(01:41:27):
You gain huge benefits from being in that relationship, but
you don't need that relationship to exist to define you.
The next one is people who are highly anxious about
abandonment and crave proximity. And that was me preoccupied. So
they are very anxious about being left and the way
they deal with it like I did, or still cling
to maintain because if I keep an eye on you,
(01:41:48):
it's going to be okay. Then we have the two
avoidant attachment styles. So first of all, we have people
who are very anxious about being abandoned but don't maintain proximity.
They find intimacy are uncomfortable and the reason for that
they're known as fearful avoidant people. And the reason they
do that is the way they cope with the stress
of possibly being left is they just don't have relationships
(01:42:10):
because then I can't be hurt if you do that.
And finally we have dismissing avoidant. Dismissing avoidant people are
the smallest part of the population generally, and they aren't
worried about abandonment, but they also don't like proximity. To
be honest, they're islands. They're not that bothered about being
in a relationship, and one of the drivers for that
might be that they're not very comfortable with them intimacy.
(01:42:31):
But some people literally just not wanthered.
Speaker 2 (01:42:34):
Can you be shades? So? Could? Is you know the
avoidant category? Does that exist on a spectrum?
Speaker 1 (01:42:39):
And the yes it does. The reason I mean all
attachments are a spectrum. The reason why we categorize them
is typical scientists, we like a category because when we've
got a category, we can do data analysis and we
can decide the sorts of behaviors for example, that these
four quarters perform, or we can put somebody in one
and help them change to another. For example, do.
Speaker 2 (01:42:58):
You think the way that modern society is is breeding
a certain group of attachment styles? Do you understand the
question one trying? I do.
Speaker 1 (01:43:07):
I think we are getting less comfortable with intimacy, and
I think that's partly because we are not as practiced
at as we used to be, Because we are not
as we're not forced to be in close contact with
a lot of people as much as we used to be.
You can pretty much do everything from your sofa. You
can work from your sofa, you can order food from
(01:43:27):
your sofa, you can try and maintain your relationships with
your friends from your sofa. You don't actually have to
be in a room with anyone. After COVID, there's a
lot of data showing that people found it. People are
much less interested now in meeting up. They kind of
got used to being in that little bobble and even
though they had the yearning of I don't have anyone
with me, they become they became much more anxious about
going out and actually seeing anybody. And it wasn't just
(01:43:49):
because they were already about COVID. We got out of
the habit, and if you get out of the habit,
you don't get any of the chemicals which encourage you
to go out. You certainly don't get any of the
addictivemics like beuter and dorphin, So you kind of go
a bit cold turkey slowly, and you just don't have
that draw to go and see people anymore from a
biological point of view, and from a psychological point of view,
(01:44:11):
it becomes a little bit scary, so you just stay
where you are. So I think we are seeing more
avoidant behaviors in people than we used to.
Speaker 2 (01:44:20):
You talked about the role of dopamine in getting us to, like,
you know, get up and put our shoes and then
get out of the house. And obviously there's lots of
things now at home that are giving us dopamine. Whether
it's social media, or it's pornography, or if it's I guess,
you know, there's other substances that give us dopamine. And
I wondered if that's if you thought that maybe that's
playing a role in.
Speaker 1 (01:44:38):
I think that is playing a role because we get
that hit and dopaninese and ice. It gives you a reward.
The problem it has is on its own, it has
no bearing on social relationships or social behavior. You need
to have the full cocktail. So that's what I say
to people about social media when they say, you know,
but I'm giving a dopamine here, It's like, yeah, you are,
and that's great, but don't mean it's very short lasting
(01:44:59):
on it's only doesn't underpin your immune system or your
health in any way. You need the full lot. You
need the full four social chemicals to get any advantage
out of it. So that is the problem. And I
think people, because we've heard a lot about dopamine, think
that don't mean alone is going to make you happy,
and it's not.
Speaker 2 (01:45:17):
You know, only we talked about these people that go
one hundred dates and maybe that they don't have the
true intention to actually form a relationship. Speaking sort of broadly,
what attachment style do you think those kind of people
fit into.
Speaker 1 (01:45:29):
Those people are avoidant, so they're either dismissing avoidant, which
means they don't have any of the anxiety associated with relationships,
or they're fearful avoidance, so they avoid them because they're
scared of being hurt.
Speaker 2 (01:45:41):
So when people talk about daddy issues or I guess
you could say mummy issues where the father has abandoned
that child at an early age. Do you think generally
those people have a higher probability of being fearful avoidant.
Speaker 1 (01:45:59):
They certainly have a higher probability of having an insecure
attachment style, because, as I mentioned, in the first two
years of life, when your brain is growing, the environment
in which you're being cared for is going to shape
that brain. Particularly if, for example, a parent leaves during
that time or even later on when it's still quite
a sensitive brain, that's going to impact how your brain grows,
(01:46:19):
particularly in that prefrontal core. Take so the bit right
at the front here, okay, where all your social cognition is,
and it's going to have less gray and white matter
in that area, it's going to have less density of
neurons and less of a high level of neurochemistry which
underpins social behavior. And because of that, when you're an adult,
you're just not as equipped to be good at relationships
(01:46:40):
because your brain you don't actually have the brain architecture
to underpin it. So that's one of the reasons why
we see people who grow up in that environment being
more insecure because they don't have the brain architecture or
indeed the neurochemical the baseline neurochemical levels circulating in their body,
which is going to motivate and reward them the starting relationships.
So they just don't have the equipment that people who
(01:47:02):
maybe grew up in a secure environment do, So that's
one of the problems. And so when people say daddy issues,
partly what they're talking about is attachment style. It is
the fact that I have this attachment style, and I've
identified I have this attachment style because my father left
whenever I when I was however old. Now, whether that's
the entire reason, there are other reasons why people behave
(01:47:22):
the way they do and might not want relationships. There
are genetic reasons, So there are lots of reasons why
attachment styles can change, oh completely.
Speaker 2 (01:47:30):
And the way that they change is is it accurate
to say someone gives you evidence the counteraction.
Speaker 1 (01:47:35):
That's one of the ways. And in one sense, that's
the easiest way because in a way, I didn't know
what was happening. This happened long before I studied attachment styles.
I think I was still chasing monkeys at this point.
But so that's the easiest way. Is literally you end
up with someone who's secure, and over time they just
get into your brain and they show you you are wrong.
Other ways are being conscious about what your attachment style
(01:47:59):
is and being con just about how it doesn't work
for you. There is no wrong attachment style. That's what
I want to say. If you feel comfortable in your
attachment style, brilliant, that's great. It's when it doesn't work
for you that there's a problem. And so there. I
always think everyone should kind of keep an eye on
what their attachment style is. I think it's quite an
important thing to realize. If you see yourself, for example,
(01:48:20):
repeating the same things over and over again in relationships,
so it gets to a certain point and you leg it.
For example, it's all getting a bit intense, so I'm
now going to run away, or you always end up
pushing people away for example, maybe because you're too preoccupied
or whatever. And it's good if you see that pattern,
if you are conscious enough to recognize that pattern, then
you can do work on yourself, or you can ask
your friends to help you. Okay, if you see me
do this, you need to flag it. You need to
(01:48:42):
tell me you're doing it again. You need to step
beyond that, and it will need support. You'll need emotional support.
Either just from friends and family, or you might need
professional help. There are attachment counselors who will help you'll
understand where your attachment style came from, and they will
help you do the work to shift so you can
do it that way. And then obviously at the very extreme,
that's attachment disorders and they always need input from as
(01:49:03):
a professional.
Speaker 2 (01:49:03):
One of the things that I've found to be particularly
useful is vocalizing my attachment style to my partner and
her doing the same back, so that we can both
kind of hold understand the other person, even though it
might not be us and we don't understand that clinging
behavior or that avoidant behavior. Vocalizing it in the way
that you've said, not just becoming self aware, but like
mutually aware has really helped us because I can now
(01:49:24):
understand her behavior. She's much more on the I don't
want to say clinging, but she needs that sort of
reassurance of my presence and now behavior that I might
have thought in the past was a bit irrational, I
now understand more contextually and therefore able to be more empathetic.
Speaker 1 (01:49:45):
And more and that's really important. It's really important to
do that because you know, we all attached in different ways,
and by understanding that it helps you. As you say,
if someone's really clinging, it can feel quite fust to.
But if you understand actually that, especially if you're avoidant,
particularly quite triggering. And that's what we know. We know
there are certain attachment styles that work better together than others.
So we know, particularly a dismissing avoidant person with a
(01:50:06):
preoccupied person, that's really tricky to keep going. That is
that is a long term relationship, which is if it
can carry on, is going to be very hard work
and probably quite roller coastery. I would say, whereas you know,
if any of the of the insecure so I'm doing
this because it's agreed the any of the insecure attachment styles,
if you can find yourself someone's secure, brilliant. Secure people
(01:50:27):
are amazing because they will absorb all that stuff because
they're so secure in themselves. Whether you're clingy, whether you're
pushing them away, they absorb it and they're good at it.
Preoccupied and fearful avoidant, that works quite well in one
sense because the preoccupied person wants to stick with the
fearful avoidant person. And the thing that's really really troubling
the fearful avoidant person is you're going to leave. So
(01:50:49):
if you literally sit on top of them, which is
what you're doing, if you're preoccupied, then that's great in
one sense because they will think, oh, okay, they're literally
not going anywhere because they're there all the time. So
there are partnerships that work better. And I do agree
with you. I think it's good to be aware of
what each within a partnership is because then you can
understand some of the quirks in behavior, you can understand
some of your reactions to that behavior.
Speaker 2 (01:51:10):
Neurodiversity. In the last couple of weeks, I was thinking
it might be my attachment style, but it also might
be the fact that I was diagnosed with ADHD, which
I'm not sure if I have, but I was diagnosed
with it. I was thinking about how a neurodiverse person
might struggle in love and holding onto relationships because of
their neurodiversity. Before we started talking, you said that roughly,
(01:51:31):
I think twenty five percent of the population are classified
as neurodiverse in some context. If I have ADHD or autism,
how am I likely or more likely to struggle in love?
Speaker 1 (01:51:42):
Firstly, because the biggie is that the neuroscience and genetics
of love are very light the neuroscience and genetics of neurodiversity.
So the chemistry that underpins love is also implicated in neurodiversity.
Some of the areas of the brain which are activated
in love are also involved in neurodiversity, and that is why,
(01:52:03):
particularly with autism, but also with ADHD, the issues that
people who are autistic or ADHD have express themselves a
lot in the social sphere because it's the same neurochemistry
and genetics essentially. So for example, the oxytocin receptor gene
which has twenty six point mutations on it which impact
your social behavior and individual differences in social behavior, a
(01:52:25):
lot of those are implicated also in autism. Dopamine is
implicated obviously in ADHD. Serotona is implicated in ADHD. Those
are both chemicals which are involved in love are one
of the neurochemicals of love, so there is some major
crossovers between the two. There are several reasons why neurodiversity
is difficult. For example, the way the neurodiverse brain works,
(01:52:49):
things like executive function is different in people with neurodiverse brains.
Executive function is things like attention, emotional inhibition, and working memory.
It's kind of the set of skills that allow you
to operate within the world. That's that's impacted in ADHD
and in autism. The processing speeds and also the way
(01:53:10):
that you process those particular three elements as different. For example,
people with ADHD, their working memory generally isn't great. They
find it difficult to recall things or hold onto things.
Emotional regulation is difficult, so for example, people with ADHD
might build to anger quicker than people who don't have it.
People with autism tend to have quite extreme extremes of
(01:53:31):
emotional experience, for example, and all of that is very
difficult in a relationship because if you live with someone
who has extreme emotional reactions or gets very angry in
conflicts very quickly, that's tricky to deal with. We also
know things like sensory processing, particularly in autism, is affected,
So that has two implications. First of all, when we're
using all that sensory information in the attraction stage, so
(01:53:52):
all that sensory information that's going into your limbic area,
the sensory processing speeds in people with autism tend to
be slower. They also tend to be either hypersensory, which
means they feel all the senses very intensely, or they
tend to have different experiences of sensors, or they tend
to have very low sensory experience. And all of that
will impact, first of all, how that algorithm operates in
(01:54:14):
your brain. It will also impact just simply things like
the environment in which you might go on a date.
So maybe we want to go on a date to
a restaurant or a pub, or a comedy club or wherever.
For autistic people, that's really hard to deal with. We
also know, unfortunately, the people who are in your adverse
are more likely to be an abusive relationships, and there
(01:54:35):
are reasons for that. If we look at ADHD. ADHD
is a dysfunction of the dopamine system in the brain.
So what happens is you release dopamine, but it's really
it's taken back up into the brain before it has
enough of an effect. So what people with ADHD tend
to do is they dopamine seek, They do activities which
give them a hit of dopamine. So you know, I
have my daughter, I hope she should usually doesn't mind
(01:54:57):
my daughter's ADHD. Autistic her doping me is he is shopping.
She dopam seeks by shopping because she a lovely dopamine
hit when you do it. But unfortunately, the start of
relationships is a dopamine c you get lots of lovely
dopamine and style of relationships. So what you're tend to
find with ADHD people is they will go into relationships
really quickly without really considering is this person right for me?
So there's that impulsivity that comes with ADHD as well,
(01:55:19):
because they're getting that hit of dopamine at the start.
We also know that, for example, if you are neurodiverse,
you tend to mask a lot you've got used to
do in life, masking to fit in with a neurotypical
world's masking is knowing the rules of the neurotypical world. So,
for example, autistic girls, the reason why autistic girls tend
to be diagnosed later is they become very good at
(01:55:40):
learning the social rules. So all those things that they
would naturally want to do in a social situation, you know,
be mute, or not reciprocate properly, or you know, not
say the right thing, they learn what the rules are.
That's why they burn out generally is because they've spent
the whole childhood studying it and going okay, So in
that circumstance, I do this, and in that circumstance, I
do this, and they hide the autism. Now, So not
(01:56:02):
only is that incredibly stressful, but if you've got used
to in life denying who you are, if you go
into a relationship with someone particular, if they're particularly dominant
or they're abusive, you carry on denying who you are,
denying that you have a right, for example, to be
with someone who's kind, you know, deny the fact that
you have needs. And so we know that people who
mask find it much much harder to express what they
(01:56:25):
want in a relationship. So it is it is really
incredibly tricky, I think. And you know, we also have
issues with empathy. For example, there's a myth particularly autistic
people don't empathize. That's not true. It's unfortunately studying the
diagnostic criteria, and it shouldn't be. The issue is is
that they empathize in a different way, and so either
(01:56:47):
they are actually hyper empaths, which means that they feel
the other person's emotions so strongly that they shut down,
and so they don't actually respond to the person because
they can't cope with the extreme emotional overload they've had.
Or the other reason is they do empathize, but they
empathize with a neurodiverse brain. And there's been a recent
study looking at this and saying, actually, if you put
(01:57:08):
two new neurodiverse people together and asen to empathize with
each other, they're brilliant. Putwo neurotypical people together, brilliant asking
you're a diverse person, a neurotypical person to empathize, it's
hard because the brain operates in a different way. So
empathy is the basis of relationships. So if you are
in a mixed relationship neurotypical neurodiverse, that can be tricky
(01:57:28):
because it can be very hard to empathize with the
other person and know what their emotional needs.
Speaker 2 (01:57:32):
Are. On this point, then if if we accept that
people with ADHD have been diagnosed with ADHD, so everything
I say is within that context, have higher impulsivity, and
they have higher no seeking behavior, novelty seeking behavior, and
they have struggles with emotional regulation, and they have some
(01:57:55):
executive function which is going to impair their ability to
think about sort of like the stakes and foresight and
all these things. Does that mean that people with ADHD
are more likely to cheat on you? There's actually a
study which looked at this in twenty fifteen. It suggested
that adults with ADHD were more likely to report infidelity
than non ADHD peers. However, the effects size was not overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (01:58:20):
Yes, I'm always wary of studies like that because, first
of all, if the effect size is not overwhelming, I
think we have to be very careful of labeling neurodiverse
people as the problem in a relationship. And I'm very
aware of that. I do a lot of training on this,
particularly for therapists, and I think we need to be
aware that all relationships are a interaction between two people,
and they will each bring their issues, and I think
(01:58:41):
the labeling of people with neurodiversity as the problem is
not on. We all, whether we're neurodiverse or not, have
to learn to adapt to the other person, and we
have to educate ourselves about how their brain works attachment,
whatever it might be, and therefore I think we need
to be careful. I think with ADHD, what we do
know is people with ADHD are more likely to have
many more short term relationships because they get bored quite easily.
(01:59:03):
They are also much more likely to undertake risky sexual
behavior cheating, maybe because they are that because of the impulsivity.
So it might be I would want to see that
study replicated many times before I think we say that's
a fundamental issue, and I would also question, you know,
if it's got a very small effects size. There's many
other reasons why people cheat.
Speaker 2 (01:59:23):
So do you know what? I think? In part the
reason why I ask that question is because again, one
of my very good friends has struggled in this regard
for many, many years. He's approaching his forties now, and
he's what part of the relationship is. Well, it's not
necessarily what he struggled with. It's what he loves. He loves,
as he says to me, the chase. He says, I
love the chase. And when you really just love the
(01:59:44):
chase and you maybe don't love the part after it
as much, you're not going to have a great relationship.
And he got to I think about thirty five, thirty
six years old, and he was diagnosed with ADHD, and
it put the rest of his life in context. I mean,
of all the people that I know that have ALHD.
Most certainly he fits the sort of criteria. And he
looked back through his old report cards and he looked
mapped to the behavior that he had in relationships. It
(02:00:06):
was very impulsive, it was very very short term. He loves.
He goes on more dates than anyone I've ever met
in my entire life because he loves the as he says,
the chase, and I thought, you know, maybe there is
a link there with his neurodiversity.
Speaker 1 (02:00:19):
Obviously, I would say the probably is I mean he's
dopamine seeking. Yeah, essentially, that's what he's doing because the
early stages, you know, when you get flopped, When you
get further into a relationship, dopamine takes more of a
back seat, and Beatre and Doorphin comes in, so Beatre
and Dolphin is the chemical of long term love. Dopamine
is much more in the background at that point, so
we get the major part of our dopamine hits and
(02:00:41):
relationships at the start. And that's probably why he gets
to a point where the dophamine starts tailing off, the
oxytocin starts to tail off, and Beata and Doorphin starts
Kiki and it becomes less exciting. That's when we move
from passionate love to companionate love, and it's just not
as exhilarating.
Speaker 2 (02:00:56):
Maybe, So if you have a brain like that that's
highly dopamine seeking, you're going to theoretically struggle to have
long term relationships.
Speaker 1 (02:01:05):
And we know that. We know that. I recently did
a conference which was on women in ADHD and we
had a workshop and most of the women in that
room said, I either don't have relationships, or I struggle,
or I'm in a long term relationship, but it is
a daily struggle to maintain it because it's so hard
to keep your attention on that relationship, to not look
(02:01:27):
for the novelty elsewhere, and also for the other person,
particularly if then neurotypical to deal with. I mean, one
woman said to me, I'm always told I'm too much,
I'm too much to go out with because of the
impulsivity and the rushing around and the lack of attention
and the lack of calmness and.
Speaker 2 (02:01:42):
They need for spontaneity. I guess, yeah, what can one
do about it?
Speaker 1 (02:01:46):
I don't like pushing drugs on anybody, and I think
whether you take medication for ADHD is a very personal decision.
But I think if the match I have is if
your ADHD is fundamentally upsetting your life and you feel that,
then it's something you maybe need to consider. It's very
difficult to do just off your own back. It's not
(02:02:07):
a therapy issue. It's not, you know, an attachment issue.
It's very likely to be a neurochemical issue, and that's
a different thing. I would also say it's also about
the people who you go out with. I've spoken to
lots of couples which are mixed in terms of your
adversity and neurotypical, and it's about the person who's neurotypical
really educating themselves about how the neurodiverse brain works so
they have an understanding also about why is that person
(02:02:29):
reacting like that? Why are they doing that? And that's
also really really important. I don't think we want to
put the burden always on neurodiverse people to change, because
I don't think that's really an acceptable thing to ask
them to do. I don't think it's really any different
from any relationship. The best relationships are ones where we
take the time to really understand who our partner is.
That's the way it works best. So you saying you
(02:02:50):
and your partner talk about your attachment styles. That's really important.
You're fundamentally making it clear that that's important to you
and that your partner has an understanding, and you're explaining
your behavior, and I think that's important.
Speaker 2 (02:03:02):
I wonder how this stuff tells into the subject of
sex and novelty and spontaneity as it relates to sex.
If you're not a divergent person, or you just have
a higher you know, impulse desire I guess, or impulsivity
need for novelty, you probably get bored of sex pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (02:03:19):
Possibly, yeah, I mean it's not an area I study particularly,
but I think yes, you probably do. And we know
that humans, some humans are genetically neurodivergent or not. Some
humans are genestically predisposed to like novelty more than others.
It's part of the one of the dopamine genes. And
so some people, yes, they are more likely to seek
out novelty and want for example, yes, very varied sex life.
But you know that's something you can have with one individual.
(02:03:41):
You don't necessarily have to go out, and you know,
if that individual is willing to go down that route
with you. It's not something you necessarily have to seek elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (02:03:48):
As it relates to all the work that you do
and the future work that you're going to go on
to do. What is the most important thing? We haven't
talked about that? Maybe we should have talked about two things.
Speaker 1 (02:03:58):
I really really want to emphasize the body of work
which shows that your relationships are the biggest factor in
your health, your longevity, and your well being. And the
reason why I want to emphasize that is because in
a world of digital communication, we have become much less
good at nurturing our relationships, much less good at impact
in putting into our relationships, maintaining our relationships in the
(02:04:19):
way they should be maintained, which is in person, and
that has consequences for our health. You know, a wonderful study,
the first study of its kind in twenty ten. There
have been many sins by Julie Holt lunsterd she but
she did a massive meta analysis which has lots of
lots of studies coming together looking at the impact of
your social network, your relationships, all those sorts of things
on outcomes, health outcomes, things like the likelihood that you
(02:04:41):
would have poor mental health, the likelihood that you would
suffer from certain chronic diseases, the likelihood that you would
recover from certain illnesses, or how long it would take
you to come back round after having it in operation
in terms of getting better. And she found, and it's
been even more impressive since then, that your relationships are
the biggest factor in your health, well being and longevity
above all else, from don't smoke, make to any good weight,
(02:05:03):
do your exercise, eat your vegetables, all those sorts of things.
Above all of that sit your relationships. So when we
in this very health conscious world where we have lots
of health influencers and all that kind of thing, we're
Stell missing that point. And we're Stell trying to do
our relationships efficiently in this busy, busy world. And I
understand why. And the tools we've been given to do
(02:05:25):
it are attractive. You know, they're attractive. We love a
new shiny thing humans and they're great. But what's happened
is we've forgotten who we are and how we need
to do. And our brains did not evolve with the
shiny screen. Our brains evolved in the world where we
all lived very very close together, and we need to
kind of in a way go back to that if
you want to have that fulfilling life. So I think
that's my first point. I think the second one is
(02:05:48):
the role for AI. And you've probably talked about AI
and so many different contexts, but AI and our intimate relationships,
and I don't mean just sexually intimate, I mean emotionally intimate.
That any relationship you have based on love is something
we need to talk because there is work towards For example,
we know about AI chatbots already, and we know that
there's going to be a work towards having AI caretakers
(02:06:11):
for example, people who care for people, robots who care
for people, or even you know, you could even possibly
have a relationship. I'm not talking about the sexpots, but
I'm talking about a full relationship with the robot. Again,
all of these things we need to understand the implications,
and we need to have a conversation now, because when
you unleash these things, if you haven't had that conversation,
it's very hard to put them back in the box.
And we know already things like chatbots are out there,
(02:06:32):
and I'm not the sort to say something is entirely
negative so chatbots have their place. They've been shown to
be really, really good, particularly with people who have social
anxiety or people who are, for example, autistic and want
to practice being social. They're really good. You're not going
to get any criticism from this chatbot. You're not going
to get a fund you've face pulled or make them
feel uncomfortable. It's great. You can have a good old
and that's brilliant. It's when you replace real human contact. Absolutely,
(02:06:56):
it makes the conversation feel a lot more comfortable and natural,
and you can really focus on the chat itself distractions.
It definitely helps keep the vibe positive.
Speaker 2 (02:07:09):
Isn't it crazy how much that's progressed.
Speaker 1 (02:07:11):
Yeah, it is. But what scares me about it is
that person talking to you there your brain at the moment,
because we haven't advanced enough in AI, maybe well knows
that's not human. And because it knows it's not human,
it's not releasing any of the positive chemicals that come
with social interaction in your brain. And it's those chemicals
that underpin your health, your mental health and your physical
(02:07:32):
health beach run off and underpins your immune system. So
that's the problem. Your prefrontal cortex at the moment is
not recognizing that as human, so it's not going to
kick off anything, and that is the problem. Now, maybe
a robotic you know, an AI guy would say to me, oh,
we'll get there. Okay, if you can get there, great,
But at the moment we're not, and we have people
who are starting to build really strong attachments to these things.
(02:07:54):
You can build an attachment to a chat, but it's
a parasocial relationship, the same as building a relationship to
celebrity you've never met, but you're not getting any other
positive benefits. So have them in their life, have them
as part of your social network if you want to
spend time, but do not replace humans with them, or
even dogs with them. Care robot's scare me because again
(02:08:16):
it's about replacing humans in a context which is very
very complicated from a neuroscientific point of view. Care requires empathy,
it requires, i think, all which occurs in very close
human relationships. Again underpins our immune system and our health,
known as bio behavioral synchrony. So by a behavioral synchrony,
(02:08:36):
we won't have it. Now, I'm really sorry, we're not
close enough. But you will have it with your partner.
So when you're with your partner. If I were to
observe you, your body language and maybe the gestures you
use and your vocal tone and maybe the language you
use would start kind of matching each other. We all
know this for management training. You know you match people
to make them feel close to you. Fine, that's what
humans do. It makes us feel close to each other.
But if we were to look into your body, you
(02:08:58):
and your partner would have entered that really at different
baseline levels of physiological measures such as your blood pressure,
your heart rate, your body temperature. Okay, if you sat
together and had a chat for five minutes, those would
all come into synchrony, so your heart rates would synchronize,
your body temperature, and your blood pressure. And then if
we were to look into your brain, two things would
have happened. First of all, having come into the room
again with different activation patterns in your brain, we would
(02:09:21):
look in your brain and your activation patterns would be
the same, so you'd be perceiving the world in the
same way. And finally, if we look at your neurochemical levels,
so we generally look at oxytocin because it's easiest to access. Again,
we all have baseline levels of oxytocin. They're different from
each other. You would have walked in with different levels.
After five minutes they would have synchronized, they would be
the same. So what actually happens when you're with someone
(02:09:42):
you're close to to develop that bond is you become
one organism. You are literally operating as one being. And
we think that, in a way, is the absolute fundamental
basis of human close love. That it's the fundameter. And
you don't get that at the moment with an AI robot.
And I can't imagine it being easy because you need
a wet brain and you need a circulatory system.
Speaker 2 (02:10:04):
This picture I have here which talks about the brain
and love, what is that showing? That's showing that we
can I'll throw it up on the screen, But yes,
it's showing that we can't get the same depth of
love as it relates to neuroscience, then we can from
a human versus like a pet.
Speaker 1 (02:10:19):
Yes, so what's happening here? So we've got all the
different sorts of love. So we've got romantic love and
parental love. Now, these two arguably are the most intense
forms of love. Okay, that's why you see such amazingly
complex areas of the brain lightp You've got a lot
happening in the core of the brain here, this is
the limbic system, and you've got happening neocortically as well,
in relation to areas related to social behavior, but also
(02:10:41):
things like empathizing, okay, and maintenance and trust and all
those sorts of things. Love for a friend is from
a neuroscientific point of view, nearly as complicated as romantic love.
But what it doesn't actually have, which is really interesting,
is in romantic love, the difference is we actually get
some activations which mirror the activations you get if you're
on an opiate, that sort of addictive euphoric sensation. You
(02:11:05):
get that pattern in romantic love. You don't get it
in friendship love. You also don't generally get by behavior
synchrony in friendship unless it's a really close friend. So
friendship love is just less intense. It's a love, but
it's not as intense. I wouldn't describe this as love
for a stranger. What you can see. The reason why
I say that is, can you see how little unconscious
(02:11:25):
activation there is. This is the limbic area. But that's
the same with the pet we're not getting any unconscious
nurturing attachment behaviors which you wouldn't expect to get with
a stranger with a pet. I'm surprised to look at this,
and I don't know where this came from, because other
studies have shown that pet love is very like parental love.
Oh really, yeah, So I don't know which study this is,
(02:11:47):
and I don't know what they looked at are how
many people they looked at? So that's interesting. But what
I would expect to see more more actually here in
the nurturing area of that, because we do know that
you can build an attachment relationship with a pet. So
it's very surprising that there's nothing there.
Speaker 2 (02:12:04):
The research you have there looked at the differences between
friends lovespet strangers. It's from Renee Ettel Cerebral Cortex, a
twenty twenty four study.
Speaker 1 (02:12:14):
Okay, okay, that's interesting. I mean with science, you sometimes
get different answers because you've done different methodology, you've got
different populations. We tend to like to see things replicated
for them to be perferved. So I'm a bit surprised
by this. Also in my book, I talk about some
really good studies that have been done looking at dog
human love. So I'm surprised by that. I'm not surprised
that it's got quite a bit of cortical action. I'm
(02:12:36):
really surprised it has nothing in the limbic area because
that's where attachment is and love for nature. Again, this
is really interesting because again this is the striatum and
the amigdala and this is where human love, like to
another sentient being would be, and again we've got nothing.
So love for nature is a much more it's not
a conscious thing, but it's a much less emotional thing.
(02:12:59):
It's different, and we only really see patterns like this
if you're interacting with another sentient being. And this is
what kind of worries me about AI, because if you
did this with AI, you would probably get something like this.
If you really loved your AI robot at the moment,
or your chatbot, you would get this. But I would
be very surprised if you've got anything in the limbic area,
(02:13:20):
And the studies so far show that we don't, because
you don't develop that loving relationship and you certainly don't
get anything in the prefrontal cortex. And that's the problem. Now,
AI might go on in leaps and bounds. But I
at the moment when they talk about programming empathy, empathy
is so complicated, and particularly the empathy we have. We
have cognitive empathy. Most animals have emotional empathy, so cognitive
(02:13:41):
empathy is much more complex. It's very hard to do.
And the fact you can't get by behavior synchrony unless
you have a wet system, and robots so far don't
have wet systems. So that's what worries me. But it's
going to come and we have to have that conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:13:57):
We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves
quest for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving
it for. Okay, and the question that's been left for you,
was there a moment in your career when you said
to yourself, I have made it.
Speaker 1 (02:14:17):
I think I'm not good at doing that. Actually, I
said to my husband the other day, I'm not good
at celebrating when I do something, so I tend to
go what's next. I suppose one of the times I
thought I probably had made it was when I starved
at the University of Oxford and I was working with
Robin Dunbar, and then I thought. From an academic point
of view, this is like the pinnacle of where you
(02:14:39):
can work with a team of people who are at
the forefront of what they're doing. So I think that
was probably a moment. But I'm really good in retrospect
at kind of rewriting that and going, yeah, but that
wasn't good enough, so let's go and do the next thing.
Speaker 2 (02:14:52):
So if we look forward then sat here, Now, what
do you think the moment will be in your future
where you think you've made it, although you probably when
you arrive there you'll think.
Speaker 1 (02:15:04):
I think it's partly to do with the spreading of education.
I think if my next book reaches a lot of
people and reaches enough people, I will think I've made
it and I've done my mission to share what we
know about dads because there's so much written and it
stays in fusty old journals and nobody reads it. And
(02:15:26):
I want to share that because it fundamentally changes how
who dads think they are and how they do it.
I get so many emails from people saying, you know, wow,
I've read your book, and it like legitimizes so much
for me. It makes me understand what I'm going through
or it makes me realize that I am needed, And
I think if I can get a book that has
a really diverse readership, then that will be the moment
(02:15:46):
I think, yes, I've done what I want to do.
Speaker 2 (02:15:48):
And what is the unheard plight of dads? Because you'll
be on the receiving end of so many messages and
emails and stuff. What if you could summarize how dads
are feeling at the moment and why your work is resonating.
How would you summarize if you were speaking as a dad,
a dad who represents the average of the dads that
contact you, what would those sentences be.
Speaker 1 (02:16:09):
It would be I'm made to feel unimportant. I am
made to feel like a secondary parent, like a bad
carrier or the person who makes the tea. That's particularly
in relation to like birth and anti natal stuff. So
it's all about them not feeling like they are important
or that they're needed, and they are so wrong?
Speaker 2 (02:16:29):
Is the law slightly biased towards Do you know how
I asked that question. I was in a cab the
other day and I got in this taxi in London
and the cab driver spent about thirty minutes telling me
that he'd been at a march in London for dads
and that he had his child taken off him, I believe,
(02:16:50):
And he was proceeded to tell me for the next
sort of twenty minutes that the laws are unfair as
it relates to dad's right to see you and take
care of their kids. You probably know the laws better and.
Speaker 1 (02:17:00):
I do, but it is and I've spent a long
time and I'm still not there yet wanting to go
into the family courts in Britain and inform them about this,
because at the moment they're operating on moded understanding that
the primary person a child needs is their mum, and therefore,
if there's any possible reason why Dad they don't think
(02:17:22):
Dad is appropriate, whatever it might be, it might be
that dad's a living too far away, or dad's job
doesn't allow for it. They will not stick to the
presumption of fifty to fifty custody, and they will swing
it all over in terms in favor of mum, for example.
And that is because they do not fundamentally understand how
important that father is to that child. And that's because
they've not kept up. They're literally they're operating on very outmoded,
(02:17:44):
completely culturally based, not evident based at all, assumptions about
who a father is. So he's right, He's absolutely right.
And there are many men who are in that position.
And I get emailed all the time from men doing,
and all the time from people saying, you know, will
you come and be my expert witness exit I can't
do it. I don't have time to do it. But yeah,
there's a fundamental misunderstanding of how important parts are. But
(02:18:05):
that's just reflecting a wider cultural problem.
Speaker 2 (02:18:11):
Thank you, Thank you so much for doing the what
you're doing, because you're certainly opening millions and millions of
people's eyes. You've opened my eyes in a bunch of
profound ways, both on the subject of love but also
on the importance of fatherhood. And it is very easy
to believe the sort of broader social narrative that as
a father you are surplus to requirements, or you're some
I don't know, you're there to pay for things, or
(02:18:32):
you're less important in some way. But you know, I've
got a brother who's a year older than me, and
he's got three kids under the age of six, and
he's really managed to design his life around being there
for those kids, and I've seen both the impact that
that's had on those kids in their development, but also
the impact it's had on him and the meaning he
has his life. And he's one of those fathers that
(02:18:52):
walked away from the corporate world and made a decision
to prioritize the three little children that he's brought into
this world. And it's really like kind of open my
own I guess stereotypes and presumptions that I had about
the role that I have when I become a dad,
And now much of the reason I have these conversations
and enjoy your work so much is because it's a
further reminder that the narrative I've believed around father is
(02:19:14):
being this you know, kind of distant being that floats
in and out provides you blow it open, and you
blow it open from an anthropological perspective and evolutionary perspective
and a neuroscience and biological perspective, which I think is
really critical. And I think because of that, there's going
to be so many kids that have better development outcomes.
(02:19:34):
And so please do keep doing the work you're doing,
and I'm very excited for your upcoming book.
Speaker 1 (02:19:37):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (02:19:38):
Thank you for being here. I really appreciate you. Thank you,
thank you,
We are not a monogamous species. It's a social construct.
And I get attacked for saying things like this, but
sexual monogamy, for an evolution point of view, is not
a good idea. That's why we have a reasonably high
rate of people who have extra marifal affairs.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So do you think we're all somewhat pretending to be monogamous?
Who do you think struggles with it? More men and women?
And you said that there's not a different in well
being and satisfaction between polyamory or monogamy.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Absolutely not. How do you know this because we've done
studies on them, and I've committed the last two decades
of my life to understand the neuroscience of love.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Doctor Animation is the Oxford Train evolutionary anthropologist using science
to decode attractions, attachment styles, love addictions. Now the crucial
roles of the father.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So here's the thing. When we look for a partner,
we don't know we're doing it, and it involves two
very distinct terrorism ringth So there's the unconscious stage. That's
where you've taken loads of sensory information about them. So
for example, if you're a woman, you can smell genetic compatibility.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Wait, so men can't smell women, but women can smell
when you can smell them.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
But it's not going to give you any information about
genetic compactability. So your brain is going to help you
assess whether they're any good for you. If you get
a good ping, a certain chemicals plot the very core
of the brain take away the fear that gives you
the motivation. Now, human love is so complicated. So for example,
the chemistry that underpins love is also involved in neurodiversity.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So if I have ADHD or autism, how am I
more likely to struggle in love?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
This is really really important.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
First of all, Dr Mitchen, why are you talking about fatherhood?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
The way our cultured trace fathers is wrong. The myths
we carry about fathers are wrong. Men have a very
specific role in child development. I wasn't expecting to find
this when I first started, but it's fundamental for a
child to thrive and survive and be successful. So what
we're finding is.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
This has always blown my mind a little bit. Fifty
three percent of you that listen to this show regularly
haven't yet subscribed to this show, So could I ask
you for a favor before we start? If you like
the show, and you like what we do here, and
you want to support us. The free, simple way that
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And my commitment to you is if you do that,
then I'll do everything in my power, me and my
team to make sure that this show is better for you.
(02:04):
Every single week, we'll listen to your feedback, we'll find
the guests that you want me to speak to, and
we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much,
doctor Anna Mitchen. What is the mission you've so far
committed your life to? And I guess adding to that.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Why I've committed the last two decades of my life
to understanding human love and understanding human close relationships because
as an anthropologist, I understand that love since that the
center of order is to be human. If you strip
everything else away and you just you've got your food,
you've got your water, the next thing you need are
your relationships, is your love. And we are so lucky
(02:45):
as a species to experience love in quite a complex
way with many different types of people and beings, and
we know that it's like the number one thing in
terms of your your health, mental, physical longevity, your happiness,
your well being, and I think we need to understand it,
particularly in a world where we're starting to get a
lot of input in terms of technology and AI and
the world is getting quicker. We need to go back
(03:08):
to who we are really at our core and what
love really is. And I suppose that's what I've given
my life over to, is to really explain to people
who are you because your love is your identity essentially.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And you use the word anthropologist, then what is an anthropologist?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Okay, so an anthropologist is somebody studies the human species.
I'm an evolutionary anthropologist, which means, I said, at the
scientific end of it, you consider it's sort of the
cultural end or the scientific end, And I study how
evolution has shaped us and also why things evolved. So,
for example, why did love evolved? Why did fatherhood evolve?
And I use lots and lots of different techniques scanning
and genetics and all these different things to be able
(03:45):
to answer that question.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I've got another book sat in front of me here
which is I guess somewhat linked to love, which is
about fathers. Yeah, so how did these two things come together?
We've got a book here about love and then we've
got a book about fatherhood and you're you're very well
known for talking the subject to fatherhood. What is the link?
How did the link come to be? And why why
are you talking about fatherhood.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
We have the wrong idea about fathers. The way our
culture deals with father's, treats fathers is wrong. The myths
we carry about fathers are wrong. The influence they have
on their children and ultimately on our society is fundamental.
So the link came because I had a child, and
like most couples who have a baby, you know, we
talked about it. We were like, we're going to start
trying to have a baby. Then we became pregnant, which
(04:29):
was great, did the pregnancy to test together, went to
the antenatal classes, went to the scans or wonderful, went
in to have the baby, and it didn't turn out
how it was supposed to. I was very very ill.
I lost a lot of blood. My daughter was poorly
when she was born. And afterwards I was offered loads
of counseling, which like a debrief would you like? And
I was like, well, to be absolutely honest, I'm okay.
Because I passed out. I literally don't remember anything but
(04:50):
my husband witnessed it all, and he basically saw a
car crash in slow motion with two people in it
who he loved very deeply, and I can understand why
it was a very stressful information. But nobody explained to
him what was happening. And so they mopped me up,
took my baby, took her to neonatal care, and left
him in the room on his own. And I was
(05:12):
breathing very shalloy, and he was scared, and the cleaner
came in and said was cleaning away, and he just
said to the cleaner, do you think she's dead? Because
I was breathing so shallowly, and the cleaner went, now,
I don't think so. May I think they would have
told you if she was dead. But after that, he
couldn't talk about the birth, He couldn't imagine the birth,
(05:32):
He couldn't deal with the emotions from the birth for
good two years afterwards, and he was really worried about
having another kid. And this made me really angry, actually,
because I was like, hold on, we went into this together,
and he's literally been discarded like he doesn't matter, and
to me, he's fundamentally important. And then as our daughter
grew I saw the amazing bond he built with her,
how integral he was to her life. And so when
(05:52):
I went back to university at Oxford to study and
to do my work, I thought, well, I'm an anthropologists. Okay,
let's look up what do we know about fathers in
our society? And there's literally nothing. There was a lot
of work on absent fathers and their impact is fundamental,
we know that, and there was a lot of quite
stereotypical work on young father's teenage fathers. Nothing on the
(06:14):
majority of dads who, whether they co reeside or not,
stick around. So I started with some really simple questions,
what happens to a man when he becomes a father?
Does he auto biologically psychologically? How does he build his
bond with his child? What's the nature of that bond?
Does he have a role in child development separate to
that to mum. Because when I started twenty years ago,
the mantra was dads didn't undergo any changes. Dads did
(06:38):
not have a bond like mum to their children. It
was not as intense, and it certainly wasn't an attachment relationship,
which we all know are really intense and bornant relationships
and as an evolutionary anthropologist, I was like, that can't
be right, because human fatherhood is rare. We are one
of only five percent of mammals that have investing fathers
and we're the only ape. Now. For something that rare
(06:58):
to evolve, it has to had a purpose because it
led to amazing anatomical social upheavals. So that's what I'm
began to do. Twenty years ago. I started asking those questions.
I recruited my first group of fifteen first time fathers
when they're partners, are three months pregnant, and off we went.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So the question that's friends of mine for me is
what is it upstream that made us devalue the role
of a father? Where did that come from? Because fathers
are somewhat seen as surplus to requirement, I think, where
did that come from?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
It's cultural. It's entirely cultural, because there are cultures in
the world who don't think that our fathers are very,
very integral. So, in fact, one of the most hands
on fathers in the world is from the Aca tribe
in the Congo. They keep physical contact with their children
for fifty percent of the day, they carry them around,
they co sleep, not the mum, They co sleep with
the child. They are the one that carries the child
through the jungle when they're hunting and gathering. They are
(07:49):
the one that sings to the child, wed stories to
the child. They even, and this is the bit that
always gets the headlines, they even will offer a nipple
to soothe the child and tell them mother is ready
to breastfeed. So it's cultural. We have this idea that
and it's partly it partly came very much from the
Victorian period where fathers were seen to be disciplinarians and
providing the money, and that was the Victorian idea of
(08:10):
being a father. It's also to do with our politics
and society for a long time, so women weren't able
to go out to work and that's where we've remained
t hell very very recently. But there's no biology behind that.
That's entirely cultural. And I think also it's very much
the case. Yes women today we have contraceptions, so we
can control our production of children, we can earn our
(08:33):
own money, we can protect ourselves, we can look after ourselves.
So actually, in one sense you think, well, yeah, what's
the dad for because I can do all those things
which historically the father had to do when women's positions
were different, and we've sort of carried on with that,
and there's become this manta of actually, then we just
don't need them. I mean, I've even been to lectures
where they've decided that the why chrome saying is going
to become obsolete and that we really won't need dads
(08:54):
at all, even to conceive children at some point, and
which to me sounds a ludicrous And that's where to
come from. And we've embedded that, and we embedded it
in our media. So dads were always bumbling or useless
or absent. You know, Daddy Pig is the ultimate bumbling,
useless father. And we laughed at it. We think it's funny.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Maybe the way that these two subjects initially do sort
of dove turl into each other is when we think
about the state of love and the role of men
and women. You touched a bit on it there when
you talked about how women are earning more and more
so men are becoming a little bit more apparently obsolete
in what they can offer to a monogamous relationship. There
(09:31):
were some stats that I was looking at before you arrived,
and I'll read them ount to you does stats say
that only thirty eight percent of single women are actively
looking to date versus sixty one percent of single men,
which is a huge gap. Morgan Stanley projects that forty
five percent of women age twenty five to forty four
will be single by twenty thirty. In England and Wales,
(09:53):
a record almost forty percent of adults have never married.
For women aged thirty to thirty four, the figure is
now most sixty, which is the lowest ever. Women initiate
roughly seventy percent of divorces, showing a greater willingness to
exit marriages that are unsatisfying than men. And obviously, I
think one of the points you were sort of touching
(10:14):
on there is that women are now much more educated
as it relates to things like college degrees compared to men.
There's this bigger picture around relationships and love that kind
of sits in the background of this and women's rise
in independence, which I think we can all agree is
was always going to be a positive thing, but downstream
from that is a clear issue and how we form
(10:35):
monogamous heterosexual relationships these days. And also, like you know,
part of the reason one of many reasons I wanted
to speak to you is I was thinking about my
friendship group and the women that I know and more.
I spoke to a friend of mine a couple of
weeks ago, and I said to her, like, what are
your girls? And she said, I currently have about one
(10:57):
hundred and fifty plants, and I want to get tobout
two hundred and fifty plants. I said to her, do
you want Do you want to get married when I
have kids? You want? No interest in that. What I
want is I want to get to the point where
I have financial freedom so I can buy a house,
and I want to get over two hundred plants. Yeah,
and this is it sounds kind of funny, but it's
an increasingly familiar story that I'm hearing, which is, once
(11:19):
upon a time, the goal would have been get married,
you know, have kids, build a life together. Now it's
more individualistic. What's your thoughts here? What is the state
of love at the moment.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Well, it's definitely more individualistic. We've become a more individualistic society,
so we are looking more at, yes, what do I want,
rather than in a way contributes to community, which is
what collectivists societies do. Women in the past had to
get married. You couldn't have children out wordlock. That was
definitely not acceptable. You had to get married because that's
where your financial security was, and that's what you did.
Quite often, those marriages weren't based on love. They were
(11:52):
based on very pragmatic decisions about this is where I
need to be. So women have been freed from that.
They don't have to do that anymore. The other thing
to say is they've realized that romantic love isn't the
only love in the box what we call their key
survival critical relationship in many cases, so the relationship that's
going to support them emotionally, physically, practically all those sorts
of things are their female friends. They're chosen families, and
(12:14):
that's who they're turning to. And that's why we're seeing
less and less women saying that romantic love is priority
or parental love is a priority. And in one sense
that's great because actually it's showing that all these loves
are equal and I can love in that way, and
I think that's wonderful in one sense. But yes, it
does mean that we're turning away from that idea of
long term cohabiting companionship and so when people say to me,
(12:35):
for example, is marriage going to die? Are we going
to end? No? I don't think it is. We will always,
for example, have a ritualistic marking of a romantic relationship.
Whatever sex you are and whatever sexuality you are, I
think that will always exist. But we're going through a
bit of a seed change. We're also seeing it in
older women postmenopause or women because it's only really very
recently that we've got to a point where we have
(12:56):
a long postmenopause of lifespan. As women. Usually, you know,
one hundred years ago, if you got to fifty, which
is the age for when a pause this standard age,
you were lucky if you were sellerlive. But now that
period of time could be twenty, thirty, forty, even fifty years.
So I think women post fifty and there's been a
massive ups in post fifty divorces instigated by women is
(13:17):
they look at their partner and they think, you're a
great dad. I selected you when that's what I want
to do. I want to have children, want to build
fum But I look at you now and I think,
but is this the person I want to do the
next phase of my life with? Because that's a very
different set of needs. And so we're seeing women actually
looking going, no, do you know what, I'm going to
start afresh. I'm going to do something different. An it
might be they look for a different relationship, or they
(13:38):
might be yeah, they decide I'm not going to have
another romantic relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
What is the difference set of needs? Just out of curiosity,
I want to make sure that my partner doesn't done me.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
When Okay, The difference is so when we are younger
and we look for a partner for a romantic relationship,
we don't know we're doing it. There are two stages
of attraction in romantic love. There's the unconscious stage, which
we share with all the mammals, and then there's the
conscious age, which is very different. That involves your neocortex, which,
looking at this is this big walnut bit on the outside.
(14:05):
Human love is special because it involves two very distinct
areas of the brain. So this is the limbic care
of your brain. This bit in the center here, that's
your unconscious brain. That's where your emotions sit, where nurturing
behaviors sit, where attachment behaviors. Bit is very evolutionarily ancient,
It's been around for millions and millions of years, and
this is where initially attraction starts. And what you do
(14:26):
is you lock eyes with someone across crowded room and
you've taken loads of sensory information about them, So you
take in visual information. What do they look like? What
does their body shape? Tell me about their value? How
are they moving? Do they look healthy? If you're a woman,
you will give them a good sniff and you can
smell genetic compatibility.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Wait, so men can can't smell women, but women can smell.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Well, you can smell them, but it's not going to
give you any information about genetic compatibility. So what happens
is a woman the major histoic compatibility complex.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
It underpins your immune system. It's a complex set of genes,
and bizarrely, that set of genes also underpins your smell,
your ability to smell, your old factory system. Okay, and
in women they can smell. How genetically close are male's
MHC is histo compatibility complex? How close it is to theirs.
But you don't want too close because you don't want
(15:16):
to inbreed. Also, you want it distant because then your
child gets a really lovely diverse immune system because they've
got a diverse set of genes underpinning it. So you
smell them. It's not a conscious thing. So people say
to me, oh, but you know, what about aftershave, what
about perfumes? Or it's not conscious. You do not know
you're doing it. And one of the things that will
be fed into your limbic area is the result of
(15:37):
that little test. If you're a woman, what do they
smell like?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
How do they know this? Have they tested this?
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Okay, we've tested this in several ways. So there was
the very famous T shirt tests which Telly people love,
where you make a load of men put on a
very plain T shirt. They're not allowed to wash, they're
not allowed to use deodorant, not allowed to do anything.
Wear it for twenty four hours. Then we put it
in some zip lock bags and we've get some poort
unsuspecting woman to sniff the ball. And the idea is
(16:02):
that the one she finds most attractive to sniff is
the one which is genetically furthest away from her. And
it does work. It works when you geno type her,
you can see that they are different. We don't have
to do that anymore. We have very sophisticated genotyping technology. Now,
if you really wanted to, there's a company in Switzerland
that will do it for you. So you can spit
on something, send it off with your partner, and they
will tell you how close your major historic compactibility complexes are.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I'm just wondering why men didn't evolve to be able
to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
We think it's probably because the cost to a woman
of getting it wrong and having a baby who is
basically too genetically close is much greater than it is
for a man, because she is basically taking herself out
of that opportunity to reproduce for nine months plus the
bid after look after that child, and so that's a
really long period of time, whereas a man it's not
(16:48):
that costly. OK, so you've taken in all that information
from the sensors. It's all worrying around in here, and
what your brain is actually doing is your brain has
got a very complicated algorithm which is working out the
biological market value of the person in front of you. Now,
the biological market value is how likely that person is
to be reproductively successful. Because from an evolutionary point of view,
(17:11):
that's the whole point of your existence. Whether you want
kids or not. Guys, that's the point is you have
to reproduce. Have some lovely, healthy kids, raise them to
maturity so they can reproduce, because we just want your genes.
From a revolutionary standpoint, we're not interested in a personality,
and so you want somebody who has got the highest
likelihood of being good at that. And we can tell
that from lots of things to do with how someone looks,
(17:32):
the pitch of their voice, how they smell. What men
actually do is they look at the waist tip ratio.
You don't know you're doing it, but eye tracking experiments
show that men do it. They don't know that. It's
completely unconscious. Wonderful study has been done with people walking
down the street with not mentioning to them what we're
looking for. They're wearing eye tracking technology and what they
(17:52):
do is the first thing they glance at, even if
they don't know it, is the waste tip ratue. Before
for example, they will look at the face and what
they're calculating is what that ratio is. Because we know
cross culturally, the most attractive ratio is a point seven,
and that is actually a classic hourglass cross culturally, cross
culturally if we go, and it's nothing to do with weight,
because some cultures like bigger weights than other cultures. Nothing
(18:15):
to do with weight, It's to do with the ratio.
And so if we if we show that ratio to
different cultures, they will go it's that one. And the
reason for that is there is a direct link between
that ratio and, for example, fertility. So if a woman
has that show she's got high circulating estrogen, it shows
she's not near menopause. Because when we go to menopause
we get more of a male figure. It goes towards
one the ratio because of the drop in estrogen and
(18:37):
the build up in testosterone. So we know that there's
a link between point seven and a range of illnesses,
chronic illnesses such as diabetes, heart disease, certain forms of cancer.
So actually what you're assessing there is healthy. How fertile
is this woman? So if I take myself off the
market for a period of time, am I going to
end up with some kids? And is she healthy to
(18:57):
raise them?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
In those eye tracking studies, what do women look at?
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Women look at slightly different things, and for women, what's
really interesting is it's not as visual. So women look
at the at the shoulder waist ratio. So that's yes,
there we go. And what you're looking for as a
woman is a triangle. So nice, broad shoulders, narrow waist.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Now the ideal there is one point six. What I
will say before men rush off from measure there were
is really only Olympic athletes have one point six.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
One point six, meaning the top half should be one point.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Six bigger than than your waist.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Okay, okay. So if my waist is let's say, one hundred, yes,
how bad my mess?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yes, this needs to be one hundred and sixty.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
One hundred and sixty again, yeah, so my waist is
one hundred, the top half one hundred and sixty yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Okay, but that's actually really only Olympic athletes, so please everyone,
don't rush off and worry. But what that's showing is
that shows certain things which are desirable in a male,
so things like physical strength. So if you have a
big upper body and a narrow ways, first of all,
it shows you're not holding fat round here, which is
a real sign of ill health for men. It shows
(20:05):
you that you're bravery fit. Around here. It shows that
you've got very broad shoulders, you are muscular, you are
able to protect and provide. It's a sign of reasonably
high testosterone. Testosterone is linked to success in men. Okay,
So it shows that I'm a successful person in our society,
that's successful social in successful financially.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Testosterone is linked to success in men.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yes, because it makes you very competitive.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Okay, So we.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Get all these things. You take all that in, you
take in navigual information, You do your little algorithm in
your brain, which obviously you don't know is happening. If
you get a good ping as in, yes, this person
has a good biological market value. I like that. What
happens is in the very core of the brain in
the middle. So this this is the very core of
the brain. Here. There's a structure there called the nucleusucumbans.
It's full of dopamine and oxytocin receptors that fires off,
(20:50):
goes completely mad if we look at it on the screen,
and dopamine oxotosin flood that system. And the reason why
they are important is in a way they are the
hormones of attraction. So OXI toasin lowers your inhibitions to
starting new relationships. Okay, So it takes away the fear.
And the way it does that is it quietens You're
a migdala. So the amigdala is a tiny little structure
down here at the bottom and it it's where fear sits.
(21:13):
And that's the thing that if you're not feeling confident,
has that monologue in the back of your head going, Okay,
you're just not very good at this. You're going to
walk across the bar, you're going to say hello, and
they're going to humiliate you. So it quietens that area.
We see less activity there, so you've got more confidence. Also,
oxtose makes you feel quite chilled. It's quite nice. And
then dopamine is also released because dopamine is your hormone
of motivation, and if you just had oxytocin, you might
(21:37):
be so chilled you sat on the bartle when you
did not move because you having a lovely time. So
dopamine as there's go no, you actually have to go
across the bar and you have to say hello. And
so they work really really well together, and they also
work together to make your brain more plastic.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
So I have to ask you then if I'm a
single person. Yes, and with what you've just told me
about the brain, I'm trying to increase the probability that
someone will be Attrack did to me and form a relationship.
To me, what kind of behavior do I need to
be embodying to because I want to I want to
reduce the fear part of their brain so that they're
more comfortable, and I want that oxytocin and don't mean
(22:12):
to be firing.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yes, absolutely so. Quite often people say to me, how
can I hack my first date? So the way you
can hack your first date is you can do an
activity which releases beta and orphin and dopamine and oxytocin.
The best one I have found, which I appreciate is
a niche interest is some form of dancing in couples,
ballroom dancing, you know, tango, whatever it is. Because first
(22:35):
of all, you're touching, so you get released oxytocin and
beta and dolphin. They're both released by touch. You're moving around,
as any gym bunny knows, exercise produces beter and dolphin.
Hopefully you're not that great at this, so you're going
to laugh a lot because you're actually a little bit rubbish. Okay,
so you're releasing lots and lots of lovely oxytocin, dope
mean and beter and doorphin. Doing that, then afterwards you
(22:57):
need to go and have a curry. Okay, Because betera
and doorphin evolved initially as your body's painkiller, that's role
it has. Over time, it's been co opted into our
social sphere. But we know you have painceptors in your gut,
So if you have a curry, your gut gets a
little bit irritated because it's a little bit spicy, So
don't have a carmer, And it produces beter and orphin,
(23:19):
and we know that that will also help you, help
you feel more euphoric, help you feel more relaxed, and
help that person be more attracted to you because they
will also get a hit of it. So that's your
ideal data. I appreciate it's very niche and not everyone
wants to do that, but there are ways.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
And then I'm going to take her to the comedy store, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
And have a really good belly laugh. A proper laugh
produces beta and orphin.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Okay, Yeah, had we finished.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
With, Well, so what you're doing, your biological market value
comes out as I say you hit dopaminoxytocin, you'r amixed
di laquatun's. You feel much more confident, you feel much
more chilled. Dopamine motivates you to walk across the bar
and off you go and you strike up conversation. And
that is the way attraction works. In all mammals. It's
completely unco conscious, so you don't know any of this
is happening. What's different in humans is very quickly after that,
(24:05):
particularly once they've opened their mouth, it all starts kicking
off in the outer air of the brain, so your neocortex,
so the major social air of the brain is here.
This is your prefrontal cortex, and your prefrontal cortex is
where all those social abilities sit, you know, so trust, reciprocity,
ability to maintain, ability to abstract about your relationship, or
(24:27):
the ability to day dream about what it's going to be,
and that's where all that sits. So we start seeing
faring off here. And what's really what's really important for
human love is there is a connection between this air
of the brain, which is known as the striatum, which
is unconscious, and this air of the brain, the prefront
of cortex. So your unconscious brain and your conscious brain
can work together in attraction. And also this air of
(24:49):
the brain at the back, which is known as the
mentalizing empathizing air of the brain. So we need to
have empathy and relationships. It's the basis of love. So
understanding someone's emotional state and being able to re sponsor
it appropriately and also mentalizing. So mentalizing is mind reading
what's their intention, what are they going to do next?
You need it for conversation. You also need it to
spot a cheat because you need to check someone's intention.
(25:13):
So the mentalizing error of the brain is important. The
sad bit, and i'll explain this in a minute, is
unfortunately that bit shots down a little bit, which isn't
very helpful. What we'll talk about that. So then as
soon as they open their mouth, you start to contemplate
them consciously, and what you contemplate consciously in terms of
your attraction can actually override the unconscious bit. So you
might have had this amazing feeling of you know, lust
(25:34):
and chemistry as you walk cross the bar, thinking wow,
this person's amazing and feeling astonishing. They open their mouth
and they say something to you which is just unconscionable
or awful, or they've got no sense of humor, or
they're really unkind, or whatever it might be. And suddenly
that bit will step in and go, ah, Nope, this
person is not for me, and that can override the biology.
(25:55):
But that's why what we say, and I always say
the brain is the sexier storgan in the body because
ultimately it's what you expressed with your brain that is
going to really determine whether or not this love is
going to go anywhere. And that's what you say because ultimately,
as humans, the thing that makes us the most successful
species on the planet is our brain. Not your shoulder
wist ratio, not your waist tip ratio, it's actually your brain.
(26:16):
Because you want your kid to have the most creative, flexible, funny, intelligent,
emotionally intelligent brain they can have, and that's what you're
looking for in a partner in the long term.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
So, based on what you know about attraction and falling
in love and all those things, what is like the
worst thing one could say in terms of the themes
the types of things someone can say that would just
completely put you off.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
So I think probably the absolutely worst thing you can say,
and this comes from a lot of data saying what's
the most important is to say something unkind. So we know,
regardless of everything else, the one thing that people want
in a long term relationship is somebody kind. So something
critical of somebody else in the room, particularly something I mean,
you don't know what that person's interests are, but something
(26:57):
critical about something that's very important to them.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Don't be able waiter, waitress.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Yeah, exactly. That's why how people treat I mean personally.
I find people who treat waiters in raging, you know,
badly enraging. That's why, because it's a rare representation of
who you are at your call, or they express a
value which goes completely against a value that you have.
Because we know in terms of long long term compatibility,
it's things to do with personality, it's things to do
(27:23):
long term values or beliefs that are the most important things.
So let's say somebody said something horrendously homophobic or something
like that, or something racist. That's an immediate right, No,
this person is not for me.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
What about X? Because X seem to have emerged as
like her. So it's got a friend of mine who's
she's never been in a relationship, she's she's just a
thirty seven years old thirty eight years old. And I
remember one day she was like, Steve, what am I
doing wrong? And I'm not listen. I was never really
a data so I have no right to tell someone
what they're doing right or wrong. But she showed me
her dating profile and then a dating profile. She said
(27:58):
to me, I said no to this guy. And I
looked at this guy and he's like a stud. He's
beautifully good looking, was really really kind in the messages.
She goes, but if you look in the background of
his photo, there's boxes on top of his wardrobe. And
she was like, so I said no. Right Now, from
an evolutionary perspective, you go, Okay, maybe he's looking at
(28:18):
his mum's house. Maybe he's just moved in, maybe whatever.
Maybe he's not a settled person. But really, there is
become a culture of women and men excluding each other
based on extremely surface level things. Now I'm like, does
that is that the prefrontal cortex doing its job or
is that something else?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
It is the prefront of cortex doing its job, I
would say it's not doing its job terribly well. It
is a really recent thing that was generated by social
media and this idea of narrying in closer and closer
and closer in what people like to call red flags.
And you don't get a lot of information from online dating,
because you don't get a lot of sensory information to
help you make a decision. So people become more and
(28:56):
more obsessive what's in the image, what's in the image?
What can I get about this person? And they start
to become obsessed with tiny, tiny things. What ultimately people
find attractive is very, very complicated. There are so many
different things that feed into attraction. Whether or not somebody
has boxes on top of their wardrobe is very unlikely
to be even vaguely important in terms of compatibility. I
(29:16):
don't think they should be call dating apps. I think
they should be called introduction apps. And that's actually what
the great Helen Fisher said. She said, they're introduction apps.
They broaden your pool, they make more people available to you.
That's it. You're not having a date on that app.
You're not learning about that person on that app. You're
literally seeing them for the first time. And as soon
as you can get in the room with them and
you can let your brain do what it's really good
at half a million years of evolution. That's what you
(29:39):
should do, because they handicap your brain. They give you
very little information to go into that algorithm.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
You said something really interesting which kind of dovetails into
what I was saying about my friend who's never dated
but is struggling in dating. I know a growing number
of people that are going on like one hundred dates
a year and having no luck. And just like mathematically,
I go, surely it must have been someone suitable in
that pool of one hundred people a year that you've met.
What is going on here?
Speaker 1 (30:06):
It's two things, I think. First of all, as I've said,
it's the low cost of dating app So in the
old days when I was dating, going on a date
was a real investment of time and energy. So you
would probably meet someone at work, you'd meet someone at bar,
you'd meet someone through a friend, which was a real
blind date, and you'd spend your time thinking what am
I going to wear? And I've got to go somewhere
with this person and spend some time with this person,
(30:27):
probably some financial investment as well, get myself all ready,
spend an evening with them, and that was how you
were going to meet somebody. So you invested time, and
you weren't going to do that unless you were serious,
to be honest, because otherwise, I'll stay at home, I'll
do something else, I'll go to the pub with my friends.
Whereas now, because we can do it, we can literally
go on a dating app anywhere on the tube, while
(30:47):
we're cooking dinner, while watching Netflix, anytime you want. It's
low cost, low investment.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I read a study that showed it was in a
different context, but it essentially showed that the amount you
invest in something correlate to the amount that you appreciate
the thing.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
They did this study where they let people into a
boring forum without having to pass any entry test, and
then they asked them how much they appreciated the boring forum,
and people said, it's boring, yes. And then they got
another group of people. They made them go through this
sort of rigorous test to get into this boring forum,
and they asked them how much you appreciate the forum.
They said, it's great. Yeah, I'm obviously paraphrasing there, but
(31:23):
it just showed this link between the amount you invest
in a process is the more you appreciate it. And
I think back to being fourteen years old going on
my first day and the whole process of getting ready
to go to the cinema and thinking about my outfit
for three days and then going there and being nervous,
and I didn't have much money, so this was like
a big thing. And then how much, you know, I
almost felt like I fell in love with the person
(31:43):
really irrespective, just because of the effort I put in,
I feel like I fell in love with them.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
So yeah, So that's so it's partly the low cost thing.
It's partly because all those people that if you were
doing it in person, your brain would filter out. Let's
say there were one hundred people in the room, your
brain were quite quickly filter out most of them as
no no no, no no no no. Maybe one or two
might do. Because you can't filter in that way on
an app, you kind of take the punt on all
(32:09):
these dates because you're like, otherwise, how else am I
gonna actually meet this person? You can't just have a
casual chat by the coffee machine at work, or you know,
meet them through some friends in the pub, where you
would do that assessment without really making that much effort,
whereas because on a dating app, the only way you
can meet that person is to actually go on a
date with them and do all that. You will end
up going on one hundred to do that filtering process.
(32:32):
So it's partly that as well. And the last thing
is the paradox of choice. So we are really really
bad at making choices when there's a lot of options.
And the paradox of choice is very powerful in relation
to dating apps because literally, particularly if you're good looking
and you get a lot of matches, there's like a
smagas board of people out there that you can carry
(32:52):
on flipping or you can make a choice, and it's
our brains are not set up for that.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
One hundred years ago, when we were trying to find
a partner, you would make We have the people in
your village who you grew up with to choose from.
If you had a horse, you could maybe have the
people in the next village or even a town. Wow,
and that was who you chose from, and it was
a very small pool. Now you can go anywhere in
the world, turn on your dating app and possibly have
you know, hundreds people to meet, and your brain can't
(33:17):
do that.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
I mean we can all think about it as well.
In the context of restaurants. If you go to Thailand, yeah,
they give you like a catalog, yes, the menu as
a catalog. They're like, we will make anything. Yeah yeah,
forty five minutes thinking that I want fish, chicken, eggsit.
But then you go to like a London fancy restaurant
and there's like we do this, this is it.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
So that's why you end up with people who yes,
go on one hundred dates and don't actually end up
with anybody because they haven't had that opportunity to.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Filter monogamy and polyamory. Yes, so can you define both
of those words? And the thing that I found really
striking is I think I heard you say that satisfaction
in either dynamic there polyamory or monogamy is roughly the same,
because I thought people in monogamous relationships were supposed to
be when more happy than people that are in polyamorous relationships.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
No, not at all. So monogamy is a relationship state
where there are two people who are okay, we have
to find two sorts of monogamy. There's sexual monogamy that
is you are exclusive to that other person sexually, you
have sex with nobody else. And there is social monogamy
and that is, you live with that person exclusively. So
(34:27):
within the UK, most people, let's say, if they have children,
are socially monogamous. They live in a household with their
children with two people in it. Whereas sexual monogamy, you
can be socially monogamous and not sexually monogamous, So they're
two different things. But monogamy, if we talk about it
in sort of lay terms, is two people who are
exclusive to each other in terms of love, in terms
(34:49):
of sex, and in terms of possibly living together. Monogamy
itself is a social construct. Mostly we are not a
monogamous species. There are in fact, very few monogamous species
in the world. Maybe I think I read a book
the other day that says something like point zero zero
two percent of the animals on this planet are monogamous,
because what you will see in the wild, and what
(35:09):
you see mostly with humans is social monogamy. They live together.
But we know that the infidelity rate it sits generally
at around fifty percent, So fifty percent of those households
are not sexually monogamous. And in fact, from an evolutionary
point of view, being sexually monogamous is a really quite
bad idea because you are limiting yourself to a very
(35:30):
narrow gene pool, and that's why there are very few
creatures in the world that are truly sexually monogamous. When
I was doing my master's, my professor studied gibbons. Gibbons
at the time were known to be the monogamous ape,
and he studied. He did a really longitudinal study, and
he was the first to realize that no, they weren't.
They were all sneaking off and doing it behind the
rock with somebody else, but they were living together. But
the female was going to find some better genes somewhere else.
(35:53):
This guy brilliant parent, not great genes. I'm going to
go behind a rock and mate with this really good
looking gibbon over here because I'm gonna get some good
gees and then he's going to raise the kid. And
the guy is like, well, you know, I'm obviously going
to have offspring here, but actually, you know, mating with
another female is not particularly costly to me, So I'll
just go and do that over there, and let's hope
you can raise them on her own, or maybe her
partner will raise them for me. So there are very few.
(36:14):
So we have monogamy in mainly in the West, because
it's a socially prescribed form of organization, and it was
imposed because it is a form of control. It mainly
sits in terms of rules, particularly in religion, but also
the ready legal rules. For example, in Britain, you can't
be you can't have two marriages, you can't be a
big a mist. And it's about making everybody control because
(36:37):
if we all just gave in constantly to precisely what
our drives were saying, that'd be kind of chaos and
those in power wouldn't be able to predict what anybody
is going to do because actually, I'm just going to
go I feel sexually attracted to whoever that is over there.
I'm going to go maybe them, but I'm going to
come back and live here. But then I've got a
kid over there, and it's all really really confusing. So
over time, when civilization first arose, the more common PLEXI got,
(37:00):
and as we started to live together in cities, those
in control We're like, Okay, I really needed to be
able to predict what these lesser beings are going to do.
So I'm going to impose monogamy. You can only live
with one person and basically have sex with one person.
Nobody actually ever only had sex with one person, but
we're going to look like we do. And those are
the rules. And that's why we haveimate legitimacy rules about
children and inheritance and all that kind of thing, because
(37:22):
it maintains control. So monogamy is simply a social construct.
It's not something that we've biologically evolved to do. And
we know that part. You know, there are many countries
in the world where monogamy isn't what is prescribed.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
How are those cultures getting on the ones that aren't monogamous? Fine,
what cultures are those?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
So you tend to get so for example, in certain religions,
so in certain forms of Islam, for example, men can
have many wives. There are certain tribes which exist within
sort of South America and in certain areas of Africa
where you can have many wives. For example, there are
some groups in Nepal in the Himalayas where we have
what's known polyandry, so one woman has many husbands. Usually.
(38:04):
The reason why these different groupings evolved like monogamy is
it's something to do with economics generally, So for example,
in Nepal, in these areas because they sell have male
inheritance of land. If let's say we've got a family
farm and there's five brothers, if all of those five
brothers split the inheritance and that farm would become uneconomic,
(38:26):
you wouldn't be able to farm it and make money.
So over time, what's evolved is one woman will marry
all the brothers, so when they inherit the farm, they
will all get it will carry on passing down essentially.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
So if it goes against our evolutionary design to be
in monogamous relationships, doesn't that mean that there's a lot
of people who are struggling against their Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Absolutely, and that's why we have a reasonably high rate
of people who have extramarital affairs. It's also why people
who are polyamorous or indeed have open relationships say, actually,
it's the more truthful way of being human because all
they're doing is following their drives, and they actually believe
that it's more moral because if you put forward a
monogamous front and you have an affair, you are lying
(39:09):
to people, You are keeping a secret from people you
profess to love, whereas if you're polyamorous or you're in
an open relationship. You're actually openly saying this is my drive,
this is the reality, and I'm being truthful with everybody
about it. So you can enter a relationship with me
or not on the basis of truth. And that's what
a lot of polyamorous people particularly will argue, is that
they're really representing what is for most people in an
(39:32):
ancestral state. Polyamory is difficult because unlike open relationships, open
relationships such as such as swinging or being open, we
call them consensual non monogamy that's just based on sex,
so you're not spreading your love relationship, that emotional investment,
that emotional intimacy amongst more than one person. Polyamory is
being open and having several sexual partners and also having
(39:55):
several emotionally intimate relationships at the same time. And I
think people struggle more with that because it's the issues
of jealousy and the fact that that goes quite strongly
against even our social ideas about monogamy where we all
sort of live in pairs.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I've got a friend of mine that's secretly in an
open polyamorous relationship basically where there's two couples and they
are together. Yeah, so there's four of them, basically, but
they don't talk about it publicly because of the judgment.
And I think maybe part of the issue is that judgment.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
That well, the polyamorous people I've interviewed, particularly for my book,
that was the major thing, is that they were very
happy in the relationship. The relationships were going really, really well.
But what was difficult was being open about it, particularly
with for example, talking to one woman who was older
members of the family, so she was going to a
family wedding, and when she went to these occasions with
(40:49):
this family, she could only ever take one of her partners.
Always had to be the same partner, because they had
no idea the other partner existed, because that would be
very difficult for them to take. Also, we know from
studies that have been done looking at people's attitudes to
polyamorous people, they are seen as immoral, they are seen
as unloving. They're seen as cold because they have this
(41:10):
ability to love lots of money, so they can't truly
love anybody because they're splitting their heart between all these
different people. Polyamorous people looking the other way, as I've sad,
they actually think it's very moral because they're being truthful.
Polyamorous relationships tend to be based on very open communication.
That's one of the rules is that is everybody still happy?
Is everybody still happy with their The boundaries are has
anybody upset anybody else? So it's very very open and
(41:33):
they also believe that, and in some ways the support
from this. You know, we are able to love many
friends at once, we are able to love many children
at once. They say, Actually, they don't split their heart.
It's not a zero some game that you get fifty
percent and you get fifty percent. Actually that each time
they take somebody into their lives, their heart just gets bigger.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Do you think we're all somewhat pretending to be monogamous?
Speaker 1 (41:53):
I think some people are happier with monogamy. We know
that partly from genetic point of view. So there are
some people, know I don't think struggle with it, but
I do think a reasonably significant number of people probably do.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Who do you think struggles with it? More men and women?
Speaker 1 (42:11):
It really depends. Do you know something that one of
the major misnomers in love research is that there is
much difference, that there's this major difference between men and
women that really isn't there really isn't. It's more about
who you are at your core, more about attachment style, personality,
your life experience, your genetics, all these sorts of things
are much more of a factor in whether or not
you will be comfortable with anogamy or any of those
(42:32):
aspects than whether or not your male or female.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
And again, you said that there's not a difference between
well being and satisfaction levels versus monogamous and polyamorous relationships.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Absolutely not. How do you know this because we've done
studies on it, We've asked, we've done we use the
same satisfaction scales about you know, how satisfied are you
in your relationship with various aspects of that relationship, and
they come out as being absolutely no different.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
For what it's worth, Babe, I'm happy with our relationship.
I'm more than happy being monogamous. I find it to
be a much much easier life.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Well, the only thing polyamorous people say is you have
to have a cracking Google calendar.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Yeah time, yeah, yeah, let's talk about the first one
thousand days. So you really believe that the first thousand
days of a child's life are the most critical. Yes,
And link to this is the role of both the
mother and the father. It's long been assumed that the
father is surplus to requirements, that they're not really that
important as long as they're you know, in the stereotypical context,
(43:30):
as long as they're providing for the family, they don't
really need to be around. Is that true? And what
do we need to know about how formative those first
thousand days are for a child?
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Okay, first of all, no, it's not true. It's absolutely fundamental.
I think for a child to get some input from
a father. I'm going to define father. In the West,
we're a bit obsessed with the term biological father, and
we always describe that as the real father, even if
he's not around, even if that child has been brought
up by stepfather and adoptive father what we call a
(44:01):
social father, which is a grandfather and uncle, a best
friend and older brother. When I say father, people assume
I mean biologal father. I don't. I mean the man
or men who have stepped in and done the job
that is the farther. So I want to make that
very clear. First of all, we know that young people
who grow up without that input, the risks of having
negative outcomes. Is much higher without having a male role
(44:24):
model or some male models in your life. We know
that they are much more likely to display antisocial behavior,
They are much more likely to turn to crime, they
are much more likely to have addiction issues, they are
much more likely to have mental health issues. And their
outcomes in terms of relationships going through their life, in
other aspects of their lives are much more negative. And
(44:45):
there is a reason for that. So men have a
very specific role in child development. And I wasn't expecting
to find this when I first started, but I've looked
at fathering around the world in many, many different cultures,
and how men arrive at that role is very different.
The fathering role is much more diverse than the mothering role.
(45:05):
It's partly because the mother's role is very tight by biology,
by pregnancy, child's birth, etc. Whereas men we call it
a facultative role, And what that means is it's much
more flexible. It's much more open to responding to changes
in the environment and adapting to them to help the
family survive. And we see that all the way around
the world. So dads do it lots of different ways.
It really depends in your environment. What the major risk
is so in our environment. You know, we don't really
(45:26):
have survival risks in our environment, not to the extent
that they do in some cultures. So as a dad
in societies where survival day to day survival is a problem,
whether it's a war zone or whether there are major,
major disease issues, then a dad's role there is to
keep that kid alive. If we look at other environments
where survival is reasonably secure but economic survival is very
(45:48):
on edge, then in those environments we tend to see
fathers again not particularly hands on in terms of caretaking
or nurturing. They are the person in that kid's life
who's going to teach them the skills they need to
go forward and be economically successful. So if you live
in a pastoral environment, then they will be taken into
the fields and they will be taught how to do
that role. And then they will be taken to the
markets and they will be taught how to negotiate and
(46:09):
build the social networks they need. And then in our environment,
where economics is reasonably secure comparatively, survival is reasonably secure comparatively,
then we are social survival is important in our world.
It really is who you know but what I found,
regardless of how you were doing it, was all fathers
have one major major role and it's a bit of
a technical termin I'll explain with it is they scaffold
(46:30):
the child's entry into the world beyond the family. And
what that means is they are the parent when it
comes to developing the skills, the neural connections, the biology,
the physiology that enables you to leave your family and
go out into the world and be successful, to thrive
and survive. And it starts when a baby is born.
(46:51):
So the attachments that a dad and a mum build
to that baby are just as powerful as each other,
but they are different. So a mum's attachment is upon nurture,
and what we tend to say with a mum and
child attachment is it's quite exclusive. So if you imagine
a mother, her major role with that child is to
nurture and protect, and so when she's with that child,
(47:13):
she will hold that child to her. It's very inward looking.
With dads, they do nurture, absolutely, they nurture, they do
all that kind of thing, but they use that nurturing
to build confidence in that child as a secure base,
which is what attachment's about, and what they actually do
is they turn the child to the world and they go, Okay,
you're safe with me. I am always here, but I'm
going to give you a push, and you're going to
(47:35):
go out into the world and you're going to see
what the world is like. And I'm going to be
the person who gives you the resilience and gives you
the social skills and gives you what you need to
be able to do that, and you can always come
back to me when it goes wrong. So what we
say with the father's attachment is it's based on nurture
and challenge. Mum is very nurturing. Dad is stimulation. I'm
going to stimulate you and you're going to go and
do something amazing. And that is why you need fathers
(47:57):
because those outcomes we have for kids who don't have
an input from a father figure, the reason why they
struggle with antisocial behavior is it's because dads are the
ones that underpin social behavior. Pro social behavior like helping, sharing, caring,
emotional regulation, and inhibition. You need to learn to regulate
your emotions and inhibit them appropriately to get on in
this world. You can't go into the school and you
(48:18):
cannot go into the workplace screaming your head off when
you get angry. That's not how it works. We know
that fartherest. When it comes to education, both mums and
dads have a pretty equal input in terms of academic success,
but fathers have a greater role in instilling appropriate learning
behavior being in the classroom, taking in what's going on,
cooperating with other people, cooperating with the teacher, not disturbing
(48:38):
everybody else, that kind of thing. They are the ones
that underpin that.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
How do they do that? Is it chemically or is.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
It it's several things. It's partly chemical. So we know that
one of the earliest behaviors you will see a father
do with the chart from about six months on is
a thing called rough and tumble play.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Rough and tumble play, okay.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
And men seem to be drawn to it. Not all
men do it, and we'll talk about the people who
don't find it comfortable. But most men, when we just
tell them to go and do something with their kid,
they're not going to do some coloring. They're going to
take the kid outside. They're going to throw it in
the air, they're going to chase it around the garden.
They're going to air aplane over their head. They're going
to come in, they're gonna bounce on the sofa, they're
going to do a little wrestling. There's lots of shrieking,
there's lots of energy, and we see pretty much all
(49:18):
Western fathers do that. And the reason for it is
too fold. First of all, it's a very quick way
of bonding with your child. Dads have to bond through interaction.
They don't have the head start of the child's birth,
which is a whole psuent army of bonding their hormtes,
so they do it through interaction and rough and double
player is a really time efficient way to do it.
You get a massive tidal way to bonding hormtes because
it's because it's so physical. So you get beatreundorphin because
(49:42):
there's lots of touch, there's lots of giggling, so all
of these things released doping, beatre and doorphin oxytocin. They
bond you tightly to the child you're playing with and
the child gets them as well. But also it's starting
to underpin some teaching about social skills because the basis
of all social behaviors Reciprocity is give and take, and
when we play with someone, it only remains if that
reciprocity is reasonably balanced. You learn empathy because you've got
(50:04):
to work out is this stealth fun for the other
person or are they no longer enjoying this? Have I
gone too far? You learn to deal with challenge. Rothent
tumble play can be pretty extreme, it can be a
little bit painful, it can be a little bit risky.
And so you're saying to the kid, assess the risk,
Assess the risk. Here's the challenge. Can you deal with
the challenge? And all of that underpins that child's neural
development first of all, but also you're showing by example
(50:26):
social skills. I'm saying reciprocity. But what's really interesting and
I love this piece of research, and this came out
from a group in Israel headed by Ruth Felderman, who
is a pioneer of neuroscience. In terms of children and
their parents, she found that dads and children have co
evolved to prefer to play with each other. Okay, so
when you're a parent, you will get a peak in
(50:47):
oxytocin from certain behaviors you do with your child. You'll
always get a bit of oxytocin because anything you do
with them is probably very nice, apart from maybe the tantrums.
But if you're a dad, that peak in oxytocin comes
from playing with your kid. And then when we look
at kids, why the peaking oxotosin release they get when
they're playing with their dads. Again, isn't when daddy gives
me a cuddle, which is nice, but you know, I
(51:09):
don't get a big release. It's when I play with daddy.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
So is that different to women.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
Yes, So women get their peak and activate of oxotosin
release from nurturing their choral and particularly from hugging them,
and kids get their peak in oxytocin when they interact
with mum, from mum's cuddles, not from playing with mum.
So naturally kids kind of gravitate towards dads when they
want to have fun, and dad, that's the kind of
thing he will choose to do with this child. Somethink
that's physical, something that's stimulatory, and that's what's really interesting.
(51:37):
And that's in a way why dad's kind of got
the monoco of oh, you're the fun parent, you do
all the fun stuff. But actually play is fundamental to
a child's development, absolutely fundamental to their social development and
also building that really critical bond with dad.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
If I was to have a baby, now, how would
my body, my brain, my body? How would it change?
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Okay, it would change in two ways. There's the biological
changes you were done to go. So this is something
that we didn't know about twenty years ago, and I
and other colleagues around the world have looked into this.
And the reason why we looked into it is because,
as I said, very rare to have human fathering, really
rare five percent of mammals. And the way evolution works
is it generally doesn't cause a whole new behavior to
(52:20):
evolve without giving you some sort of head start in
being able to do it. And so over time in
the last half a million years, as fatherhood evolved, men's
brains change, their psychology changes, their hormones change when they
become fathers to give you that prep to be a parent. So,
first of all, we see hormonal changes. The most studied
(52:41):
and I think probably the most significant is the drop
in testosterone that occurs when you become a father. So
you will have already experienced a drop in testosterone because
you're in a long term relationship, yes you have. So
when a man enters a long term relationship for a
first for the first time, he will experience a drop
in testosterone. Because testos stone is really great chemical if
(53:02):
you're dating, because it makes you more competitive and it
makes you more attractive if you're in a heterosexual relationship,
so it makes you more attractive. But when you start
living with someone or being in a long term relationship,
we kind of need you to shift your focus from
the horizon and looking for another date, and we need
you to focus on that one person because from an
evolutionary pard view, that person is going to be the
person you have kids with, and we'd quite like you
(53:23):
to stick around and look after those kids. So that happens.
When you become a father for the first time, it
drops again and it can be up to thirty percent,
so you lose a third of your testosterone. And the
reason for that, again is we need you to focus
in on the family. We can't have you looking to
the horizon for another mate. We need to focus on
because we know that children need input from more than
(53:43):
just month to survive.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
This sounds all very monogamous.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
I'll talk about it in a minute, okay, so you
focus in on that child. Testosterone is also when it's
very high, it blocks the bonding hormones, so dopen me
in oxytocin in particular have less of an effect. So
the test astrain drops also to enable you to start
bonding with that child because you are you are behind
(54:07):
in terms of bonding with that child because mum's gone
through pregnancy in most cases and given birth, so she's
had a head start. She's had a load of oxytocin, dopamine,
beater and orphan during the birth process. You haven't, so
we need to release those hormades as suit as we can.
One of the ways we do that is testosterone drops,
soir oxitosin and dopamine a more.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
Effective Which explains why some fathers say that they don't
feel bonded to their child in the early stages or before.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yeah, I'll explain why that is as well in a minute.
So that's oxytocin doping. And we also know, just generally
from studies where the men are fathers or not, men
with low testosterone tend to be more motivated to care
for children. So even if you're not a father, if
we present you with a crying baby. Men with very
high test austerone, the reaction to that is mainly aversive,
like okay, just take it away from me. And also
(54:51):
they get quite frustrated. They find it quite quite difficult
to deal with as a noise. Men with low testosterraine
tend to be more motivated to pick the baby up,
try and suite the baby and deal with And whilst
it's a difficult noise to hear, they tend not to
experience negative emotions in relation to it. So that drop
in testosterone is really really important. Over evolutionary time, we
(55:12):
think that people were probably socially monogamous for a period
of time which matched the period of time they needed
to ensure that our child's going to survive. So whilst
in our you know, in our culture it's like no
you will marry, tell you you will be monogamous to
tell you die, in evolutionary history that probably wasn't the case.
Fathers might have stuck around for probably at least until childhood,
(55:35):
which is between about five and ten. They might have
stayed along into the teenage years, depending upon how difficult
the environment was. And also this doesn't mean they weren't
having sex somebody or else, so this is social monogamy.
We also see changes in oxytocin rises. If you live
with your pregnant partner, it will start to rise in
pregnancy as well your partners, and that's there to make
(55:55):
sure first of all that your bond to your partner
titans because you're about to introduce some new into your
relationship and it's not going to be easy, so we
need that to be tight. But it's also to start
preparing you for after birth. We know that vasopressin also rises.
Vacidpressin is a sort of form of oxytocin, but in
non human mammals it's associated with defense of the nest,
(56:16):
and we think in male humans it's to do with
protection and motivation to protect that child. And finally we
see an increase in a parenting hormone known as prolactin,
and prolactin is only seen in males in species that
have investing fathers, and protacting again, is a parenting hormone
that motivates you to care. So you go through this
massive change in hormones. A lot of men say they
(56:37):
don't notice the drop in testosterone in terms of things
like strength, so I get the contact by a lot
of men saying, but I love weight training, it's just
going to ruin. No, it's not. It doesn't do anything
like that. Think of the number of Olympic athletes who
have kids. You're fine. What it does do is it
increases your emotional vulnerability. So quite often with fathers, you
will hear they're more empathetic after birth. And also they
(56:57):
find it harder to deal with emotionally difficult things like
on the news. Suddenly things on the news will make
them cry when they never cried before.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
Will they ever get their testosterone levels back.
Speaker 1 (57:06):
Only if you don't have contact with your child. So
if you don't have contact with your child, you don't
have to co reside with your child. These studies have
been done across cultures, including cultures where coresidence doesn't occur.
As long as you are in contact with your child, No,
they won't because you are still maintained in looking after
that child. If you lose contact with your child, yes,
they will go back up because the evolutionary drive is
(57:27):
to then reproduce again.
Speaker 2 (57:29):
So if I have a kid and then I stick
around and raise the kid, assuming I stick around, my
testosterone levels will never get back to the level it
was before I had the kid nop never. I mean
that's slightly. I mean, you know, I'll love my future cause.
Speaker 1 (57:43):
I'm sure I will say to Dad, because they do
worry about and I undertand why they worry about it
because they believe very much the testosterone is the male hormone.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
It isn't.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
It isn't. You know women have testosterone and it's one
of the sex hormones. It's not. It really isn't associated
with things like stress. You might find things like like
your if you have a tendency to aggression, you might
find that drops a little bit, and as I say,
you become more empathetic and you become more emotionally vulnerable.
But it's really it's not going to impact a huge
amount physiologically in you. So really don't worry about it.
(58:14):
And also you get the most amazing rewarding bond with
your kid in return, so you drop the testosterone that
you get this astonishing bond, so it swings them a roundabouts.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
You said earlier that if the father's not around, there's
implications for teenage mental health.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
Yes, so, because fathers underpin resilience through starting with reference
on will play, but carrying on through that child's life
and doing stimulatory activities with that kid. They're the ones
that underpin mental resilience, and obviously mental resilience is particularly
key for mental health also because they underpin scaffolding the
child's ability to operate in the social world. A lot
of the disorders we see in teenage young people are
(58:50):
associated with social situations, so social anxiety, eating disorders, self harm, depression, loneliness.
They tend to all exist within the social sphere. And
because of that, that's why it's actually the relationship you
have with your dad, particularly the attachment relationship you have,
So if it's a nice, secure attachment relationship, you are
much less likely to suffer from those disorders. And also
(59:11):
particularly you know how much time your dad spends with
you and inputs into you. It's important. So kids are
really interesting. They measure their importance to their parents in
different ways. If you say to them, how do you
know your importance to your mum, They'll say, well, my
mum does stuff for me. She makes sure I've got
my favorite cereal. She makes sure that I get picked
up from school and I can have my play dates,
and she makes sure my sports kit is washed, and
(59:33):
I mean it's all terribly gender specific. I do apologize,
but this is the data. If you say to the kid,
how do you know your importance to your dad? He
spends time with me. And we think it's probably cultural
because in our culture, dads are still more likely to
be out at work. So the precious thing you have
as a man is your time. And if I give
my time to you as a child, particularly if I
do something you're interested in, and I accept you as
(59:55):
an individual and say yeah, let's be enthusiastic about what
you want to do, then that is what underpins how
you feel, how important that chart feels, and that underpins
their self esteem.
Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
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(01:00:26):
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(01:00:46):
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I started my first business at twelve years old, and
(01:01:07):
I started more businesses at fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, and eighteen.
And at that time, what I didn't realize is that
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And if you're looking to get your business started, go
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slash bar. We talked to the top of this conversation
about how gender roles have shifted and how more women
are college educated and more women are in work and
they're climbing the economic ladder. This also means that mothers
(01:02:11):
are more likely to be around less than such a world,
especially when we consider the way that the offices have
been designed and the working week has been designed. Have
you thought much about the implications of an absent mother,
because we talked a lot about the absent father. Yeah,
but an absent mother or a mother who puts their
child into daycare or is working five days a week.
Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
I mustn't. I haven't because I don't study mothers. Mothers
is a massive amount of work done on and I'm
kind of filling the gaps in terms of fathers. To
be absolutely honest, the roles of a mum and a
dad in a heterosexual relationship have evolved to kind of
compliment each other. So they don't mirror each other. They
don't do the same thing. They compliment you. So, so
what happens when we take one of those away for
that child? There are two things to say to that.
(01:02:52):
First of all, in most children's lives, we talk about
single parent families, and what we're talking about is a
single parent raising that child. But actually, if we look
outside that particular diad, that particular couple, and we look
at who else is in putting into that child's life.
So quite often I study its obviously in relation to
absent fathers, what we tend to find is that child
has other people in their life who are men who input,
(01:03:15):
even if the mom hasn't recognized it. One of the
most powerful studies I read wasn't saying to a mum,
where are the father figures in your child's life. It
was saying to the kid, who are the important men
in your life? And the kid will go, oh, my
football coach or my maths teacher, or my mate John's
dad or they often recognize father figures. They don't call
them that, but they recognize men in their lives who
(01:03:36):
they look up to, who support them, who the parents
or the mom doesn't even think about. So that's the
first thing to say. Secondly, we know with gay fathers,
where a mom isn't in a caretaking role, the brain adapts. Okay,
so what happens if we put a heterosexual couple in
a scanner and we say, look at this video of
(01:03:56):
your child. We see different peaks in activation in the brain.
So in mum, we see a peak in activation at
the core of the brain here, Okay, very ancient. It's
partly there because mothering is as old as time, so
it's in the ancient, unconscious part of the brain. But
this is where nurture is, attachment, risk, detection, all those
things you need to be able to do, and then
(01:04:17):
we get that peak there. However, if we look at
dad's activation, he does have some activation here. Obviously he does.
He's very capable of nurturing and protecting. But actually the
peak in activation is in the neocortex. This is this
bit of the brain. This is the conscious brain. It's
much younger, and that shows you that fathering is younger.
It's about half a million years old. And we see
activation here in the social part of the brain. Okay,
(01:04:40):
so this is the prefrontal cortex which is here, and
the orbitofrontal cortex, which is kind of above your eyes,
and that's where all your social skills sit, your ability
to do everything socially. And then at the back of
the brain. We have two areas at the back of
the brain which link to empathy, which is the basis
of relationships and mentalizing. So that's that ability to know
someone's intention. You need it just to have a conversation,
but you all so need it to spot somebody who's
(01:05:01):
going to maybe do you bad in some way, cheat, lie, whatever,
those sorts of things again important in the social world,
and his peaking activations are there. Again, Mum does have
some peaks in activaty some activation here, but it's not
as intense and that underpins those two different roles. So
Dad's attachment is new, Mum's attachment is very ancient and nurturing.
If you have a gay primary caretaking father without a
(01:05:23):
mother involved, what you see is you see both bits
light up at the same intensity. So he gets the
dad activation obviously being a man, but he also gets
the mum's activation. And what's really absolutely fascinating is if
we look at that brain, there is a new, a
brand new neural connection between this bit of the brain
(01:05:44):
here and this bit of the brain here, so they
can communicate.
Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
So is a woman not playing a unique role at
all in raising Well, arguably.
Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
Neither is a man, because if we look in if
we were to look in probably a gay woman's brain,
we'd see the same thing. And it's not saying that
they're not paying unique roles in a heterosexual relationship. They
absolutely do. But what it's showing you human children are
incredibly difficult to raise. They are pretty much, apart from
maybe dolphins and a bit of an ape, the most
(01:06:15):
intense kid to raise because they're because they're born so helpless. Okay,
and the only way a human baby can survive is
is it gets enough input. So the human brain, the
human parenting brain, is astonishingly plastic and it will adapt
to make sure that that child gets what it needs.
And so where we've got one of the adults missing
(01:06:35):
mum or dad, it will adapt to say, okay, the
remaining adult or whether even if there's two dads or
two moms that primary caretaking one, their brain will alter
to make sure that kids start it gets one of needs.
Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
Kind of goes to the top of what we were
saying about do you need dads then, because if you know,
we talked about the role that dads play and play
as I've read your research around the impact that a
father has on a kid's ability to speak yes is
better in children who had a father present. But if
you could just have two women doing it, doesn't that
(01:07:07):
mean that we don't necessarily need the father.
Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
It's not that you don't necessarily father. I mean the
same argument you say you don't necessarily need a mother
in a gay parenting relationship with the fathers. What it's
saying is in a heterosexual relationship we get this complementarity.
We can't get that in a gay relationship. So what
we've got instead is this sliced adaptation. Unfortunately, the studies
haven't been done sufficiently on gay parenting, which is which
(01:07:31):
is a massive omission. I'm afraid science always starts with
heterosexual and narrows it down that we don't know exactly whether,
for example, a gay parent two male parents maybe there's
a little bit missing because of a lack of female input,
or whether with two female parents as the mac because
there's no male direct male input. The other thing to
(01:07:51):
say is around these families, you know, I can't. There
are very few gay parenting families where there are no
women involved at all, and there are very few lesbian
couples who have no male involvement at all. So it's
a very complex mess really in terms of what the
inputs are. But I think the study that discovered this
were just astonished at the amazing plasticity of the brain
(01:08:12):
that a man who did not go through pregnancy and
childbirth and does not have this evolutionarily ancient instinct in
terms of motherhood could actually adopt this role and we
would see this activation. That's in a way, the biggest
take home from it is that it will adapt in
such a powerful way to make sure that child gets
what it needs.
Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
So do we need fathers, yes, Why what is it
that that fathers bring that can't be done by some
other means.
Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
Though, because we don't yet know first of all, whether
these adaptations in the female brain, for example, are enough,
because that research hasn't been done. And secondly, there are
very few children who don't have a father. Actually, if
you look at their social grouping now, it might not
be a father ho co resides. It might not be
a father who they see that freak. But it could be,
(01:09:01):
you know, and when we remember we're talking about grandfathers, uncles, teachers, coaches,
whoever it might be. It might be a whole team
of men who step in and out at different times.
It's very rare that a child doesn't have any male
input in their life. And that is what a father is.
It's not your biological father.
Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
So is it that we need a father figure around.
But we don't necessarily need a father in the home.
Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
You do not have to co reside. One of the
things that drives me slightly around the bend is when
people talk about absent fathers. Sometimes the father is truly absent, absolutely,
but in some cases he's not. He just doesn't live there.
And that's what we've got to be very clear about.
You do not have to co reside. And there are
cultures in the world where co residence is not the norm,
(01:09:47):
and so it's about being in your child's life. You
do not have to live with them.
Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
Are we getting more fatherless as a Western society.
Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
It would seem so at the moment in terms of
biological fathers. Yes, unfortunately, and that's one of the things
that we really need to focus on. I've recently become
a trustee of a new policy unit, which is the
Center for Research into Men and Boys, and my role
there is to look at the role of fathers, how
we support fathers, how we support boys in having male
figures in their lives. Because we are seeing because divorce
(01:10:20):
has become more culturally acceptable, possibly because of longer life
spans and relationships aren't asking as long. There's lots of
reasons why we are getting more children who do not
have fathers in their lives. It's also a major issue
in the US. I know, you know Richard Reeves and
I work with Richard Reeves on it and dan is Issha.
And that's why we have to start looking in a
(01:10:41):
creative way about what a father is because those kids
don't necessarily have their biological father in their life, but
they need somebody and that might be encouraging links within
the community. It might be helping single mothers identify those
male figures within their environment and supporting those male figures
and coming forward. It might be that we need more
organizations like Latani Dad's which is an organization in the
(01:11:02):
UK that provides male father figures mentors to boys who
don't have a father in their life.
Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
Is there anything better than a biological father, Yes, a father,
there is, So even if it's a sort of a stepfather.
Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
Or if it's just because you don't get to become
a father. Indeed, you don't get to become a mother
just because you happen to conceive a child.
Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
So from a development perspective, it doesn't matter if there's
no difference in biological fathers versus you know, Dave, who
don't care of me.
Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
Because the changes we spoke about happen whether you're biologically
related to that child or not, because they happen through interaction.
So any man who steps in and does the job, well,
see the hormone changes, well, see the brain changes which
we haven't spoken about, well, see the psychological changes. They
will see them all because they happen through interaction. So
you don't. You're not as a biological father. The moment
(01:11:49):
you conceive that child suddenly get this mysterious ability to
be a father. You don't. It happens because you happen
to be interacting and living and inputting into that child's life.
So no, there is no hierarchy. It's are you doing
the job? Yes? I am. Are you doing it in
a good and healthy and positive way? Yes I am. Okay,
you get to be dad.
Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
So you really you're making the case for father figures. Yeah,
in a child's life versus and a child growing up
without a father figure at all, Yes, it is going
to have worse outcomes.
Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
There is a risk they won't necessarily, but the statistics
are quite powerful in terms of those outcomes. There was
a study done recently in the UK by the Center
for Justice called Lost Boys, and that was looking at
and one aspect of that was looking at boys and
their outcomes if they don't have a far figure, and
it is quite powerful in terms of the increased risk
of having negative outcomes.
Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
So, if you're in a lesbian relationship and you're so
two women, are you saying that you really should make
sure that the child is exposed to a father figure.
Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
Yeah, I would say that. I would say that. I
mean some people I get attacked for saying things like that.
And I'm not trying to say there are gender roles
or any of those sorts of things. But we have
children have evolved. The reason why your humor fatherhood evolved
is because children evolved to be brought up by a
group of people, and part of that group of people
was a father figure. Now, as we see from cultures
around the world, it does not have to be the
(01:13:17):
biological father, but they have a father figure or a
team of father figures. It doesn't have to be one person,
it could be several people.
Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
And does that go the other way if you're in
two men.
Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
Now, I would always advise that that's how children to
have those two inputs. So find those women in your
life and ask them to step in and do that.
And another anomaly that we hear a lot is that
it's particularly important for boys. Actually it is critical for boys,
but arguably it's kind of touch and goes to whether
it's more critical for girls. The data coming out about
(01:13:51):
daughters and the impact that fathers have on daughters is
pretty powerful stuff, and so it's not just that we
need these father figures so always know how to grow
up to be positive masculine figures, to be men, whatever
it might be. It's also really critical for girls that
they have a father figure around.
Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
What's the data coming out regarding the dad daughter bond.
Speaker 1 (01:14:14):
So what we're finding is daughters who grow up with
a secure attachment to their father, they have increased abilities
and to increase success in terms of academics, in terms
of education, they have increased career success. They tend to
have much better mental health, they tend to be much
(01:14:35):
better relationships, they tend to have less risky, particularly sexual relationships,
and they have just better well being scores, and they
are much more liked, as I've said, to have stable,
good relationships in their older life. In that adult life.
Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
When you think about society and how we're forming our relationships,
especially around child rearing, yes, well, what are we increasingly
getting wrong here? I spoke to Erica Commissa here. She's
very passionate about the detrimental impact of daycare right because
she feels that the mother's plays a critical role in
(01:15:10):
those first two years, and then the father plays a
critical role beyond from about two years onwards, when the
kid starts to get into that play face.
Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
I would argue with her on that point, but okay.
Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
Which point would you argue on the second point.
Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
Yeah, dad is critical from the moment that child is born,
and I get quite upset when I get father's out.
I met her father the other day at an event.
I think his baby was six months old, and he
was a dad worker. This guy he worked with dad's
He was a community worker who worked with the dads
with older kids. He said, oh, I've had it was like, congratulations,
you might yeah, but you know, I know I'm not
(01:15:42):
particularly important to tell you till the baby's, like, you know,
at least eighteen months, two years. So I'm just changing nappies,
but I know that I'm not really doing much. And
I was just like, oh my god, I literally cannot
believe this man is saying this bearing around what he
does for a living. I was like, you are absolutely
critical from the moment that baby is born. You are critical?
Why because the baby's brain is growing. Babies are so human,
Babies are born months before they should be. And the
(01:16:05):
reason for that is because two anatomical and normally is
we are bipedal and we have an enormous brain. At
full size, our brain is six times bigger than it
should be for a mammal of our body weight. It's
highly uncephalized, so encephialization is all this folded and folded
and fed. So it's folded like this because we've got
a rammit into our skull. If you look at the
brain of a mouse, it's smooth. So when we became
bipedal about fully bipedal about sort of one point eight
(01:16:27):
million years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:16:28):
Bipedal meaning two legs.
Speaker 1 (01:16:29):
If you look at something that walks on four legs,
like an ape, a chimp who's our clothes, their legs
are quite wide apart, so their birth canal's really broad.
Ours is really because we've had to come in like
this to maintain being able to stand upright. So if
we tried to birth our babies when their brains were
nearly fully grown, like happens in other apes, Mum would die,
baby would die, and our species would have died out
a very long time ago. So about one point eight
(01:16:52):
million years ago, we reached a threshold where the brain
had to do some growing after we were born. And
the way that we dealt with that was we birthed
our babies early. Be selected to birth our babies early,
and that's why they're so completely helpless. Because if you
look at a chimp baby, a chimp baby's pretty mobile
just after it's born. It's got pretty good motor function,
it can hold onto stuff, it can do various things.
(01:17:12):
Can't feed itself, but it can. Whereas human babies, they
can't do anything for themselves. They literally can't. They can't focus,
they can't hold their head up, they can't move, they
can't coordinate their limbs, they can't clean themselves, they can't
do anything. And that's because they're born far too early.
They should be in months longer essentially, so we have
this period of rapid brain growth after we're born. And
(01:17:34):
because the main bit of the brain that's growing at
this point is this massive prefrontal cortex, which is the
social bit. The environment in which you grow up is critical,
and who is really important in the social bit the dad.
So from the moment your baby is born and this
is growing, dad needs to be having an input because
this is where it's growing. Mum is also obviously vital,
(01:17:57):
but we have to have both parents involved, or you
have to have that input at that point so these
dads who believe all people who believe that dad's only
important off to two ars. I'm sorry, you have a
fundamental misunderstanding of how the brain develops and of child development,
because you need to start teaching that child by in
putting into their childs, by giving that sensory input. In particular,
(01:18:17):
human babies need a lot of touch, they need a
lot of smell, they need a lot of all that
kind of thing. You need to be doing that as
early as possible, because this is growing from the moment
it comes out.
Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
Is it fair to say that in that zero to
two phase, mothers are more important.
Speaker 1 (01:18:30):
No, because they do different things. They do different things.
Mothers tend to be more involved, partly because of the
fact that, from a biological point of view, women give
birth if you're breastfeeding, they're the only ones who can
do that. So we are tied in terms of having
to do that. The other thing we'd say is also
(01:18:50):
giving birth is a really really tricky thing to do,
and it's physically and emotionally utterly draining, so you need
a period of recovery, and therefore you are the one
who's basically at home. In the Western context, you know,
in non Western context, a baby from the moment it's
born generally and some cultures will be careful by both
my man dad. It's only because we have this capitalist
(01:19:11):
system where someone's going to go and earn some money
that so I wouldn't necessarily argue mums are more important.
They are in a position from a biological point of
view that they're going to be there. They are just
going to be there, and in our system that means
somebody else it doesn't have to be there, and that's dad,
and he'll go and earn the money to support the family.
But they need the input from both.
Speaker 2 (01:19:28):
Is it fair to say then that the primary caregiver
is the most important, And what I mean by that
is the baby's going to form the strongest attachment to
the person taking most care of it, and therefore its
attachment style will be shaped by the relationship to that
primary caregiver.
Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
It's really tricky to say, because yes, primary caregivers are
really important in terms of being most of the environment
of development in those early days, particularly if this is
what we call I don't really like calling the secondary
care But the other parent is out and about and
therefore not present the environment in which a baby grows
isn't just about whose care taking them, who's giving them
a hug. One of the things I really always talk
(01:20:03):
to parents to be about is your relationship builds that
environment as well. So parents are actually babies are also
actually taking on board the dynamics between their parents. And
one of the things that I always try to get
into ANTIINATA courses is preparing the parenting relationship because actually
you need to build an environment which is as calm
(01:20:25):
and as reciprocal and as safe as you can do
for that child. And that means, for example, before you
have a baby, learning good conflict management style, you're gonna
have an argument. Okay, it's not about having an argument.
It's about the reconciliation of that argument. It's about the
resolution of that argument. So it's about that. It's about
understanding difference. You're going to parent in different ways that
could be really challenging to some couples. They find it
very difficult, so you prepare them for that. So the
(01:20:48):
environment is not just the primary care taker. And that's
what's fascinating about humans is human babies. It is enough saying.
It's a true saying. Are raised by a village. So
the environment of development isn't just a primary care taking pair.
It's everybody who's around that child as well. And in
our world that might be family, that might be friends.
Where we live go great distances from our families, so
(01:21:08):
sometimes that's more professionals that have an input into that
child's life.
Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
I guess I'm trying to figure out what's optimal in
my relationship because I'm probably about tend into parenthood. Yeah,
And I'm trying to understand, you know, I'm trying to
understand how I should configure my situation in those early
years with my partner and me. We both work. My
job is requires me to fly a little bit more
than hers, but just because that's the way that I've
(01:21:34):
chosen my career to be. She spends more time at home,
but still very very busy, still flying around the world
doing her own thing. So I'm thinking, when that baby arrives,
what should we based on everything you know about humans
and human history and the human brain and everything that's interconnected,
what's the optimal optimal scenario for me and my partner?
Speaker 1 (01:21:52):
Do you know? I think it's really hard because what
I always say to parents, because parents are really good
at beating themselves up. Is happy parents make happy babies.
So first of all, you have to do what works
for you. And everybody's circumstances are different and there are
needs that everybody's going to have. So yes, your baby
has needs in terms of nurturance, in terms of support,
in terms of building attachments, but your baby also needs
(01:22:12):
a roof over their head, and they need food on
the table, and they need all that, and they need
whoever's caring for them to be healthy. So it really
depends upon what works for you in an ideal world.
Somebody asked me the other day because at the moment
in the UK we're having a lot of campaigns about
paternity leave. In the UK. At the moment, you can
have two weeks, which is frankly laughable, and the dad
can have two weeks. The dad can have two weeks,
(01:22:33):
not if you're self employed, but if you're employed. If
you're self employed, you're kind of on your own. We're
trying to push the government to take it to six weeks,
which isn't our ideal, but it's how far we think
we might be able to push them. Somebody asked me
the other day what would be the ideal for a dad,
I'm afraid I started at six months please, that would
be lovely. In places like Sweden, the dad gets a
(01:22:53):
year because babies develop with different inputs from differ people.
As I know, you're in a heterosexual couple, so your
baby will need your dad's input and mum's input and
they will need those in ever whatever configuration works for you.
So it might be that some period, particularly after childbirth
is off, your partner is going to have to have
(01:23:14):
time off. She is not going to you know, it's
very hard to race back to work after you've had
a baby. Some women manage it. I think they're astonishing.
I certainly couldn't have done it. So that's fine, you
go do that, but she's going to need a period
of time. But then, are you in a situation where
you can work a little bit flexibly? So is there
a point where you can say, okay, you go and
do some work and I'll take the baby for a
bit and you switch that way. Now, obviously, if the
(01:23:36):
mom is breastfeeding, it's harder because she is tied more
to the baby. You can express milk as much as
you like, but it's quite difficult as a breastfeeding mother
to go off on a work trip for a week.
Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
So the first point there is really that she's probably
going to need to take some time.
Speaker 1 (01:23:48):
She is going to need to take some time unless
she is in a position where she really thinks that
she is going to be capable of physically and psychologically
going back to work. I've met women who do it,
but it's really hard now, particularly when in those first
early weeks. Actually she's going to need you, or she's
going to need someone to help her. My husband is
self employed. My husband actually only managed to have two
(01:24:10):
days of paternity leave before he had to go back
to work, so my wonderful mom stepped in. But she's
going to need somebody there. In an ideal well, as
long as you were happy to do that, that would be
you because your baby would really benefit from that. And
then from there you have to take it the way
it works for you in terms of your career, because
whoever looks after that baby, it doesn't have to be
mum or dad. It can be a mixture of both.
Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
But I'm able to make concessions, and maybe I'm in
a privileged position where I can make I can kind
of design my life a little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:24:36):
Well, from an ideal of point of view, then you
will at that point try and be with your baby
as much as you can and do that and do
as many of the tasks with your baby you can,
because actually, from your point of view as a man men,
the psychological changes that a man goes through when he
becomes a father, it's known as the transition to parenthood.
In most men who work, it takes two years. And
(01:24:57):
one of the reasons it takes two years, whereas in
her mother it takes about nine mins, is because one
of the factors in how quickly you transition to adopting
that identity and how comfortable you feel with that identity,
it is down to competency. How competent do you feel
as a parent. Now, many Western dads they don't get
the opportunity to reach competency very quickly because they have
to go to work, so they don't get to care
(01:25:18):
for their baby. And that's one of the things we
know that men who get that chance transition to parenthood
much quicker. Because they reach competency quicker, they absorb the
identity of being a dad quicker, and that is better
for them.
Speaker 2 (01:25:28):
This transition to parenthood is that a biological thing.
Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
It's underpinned by the biology, by the brain changes on
hormone changes you're going to undergo, but it's a psychological state.
So it's about configuring your identity and absorbing that particularly
new aspect of your identity into your sense of being
and also feeling comfortable with that. We know men who
struggle with that transition are much more likely to suffer
(01:25:53):
from post natal depression, for example, and post natal depression
has a fundamental impact not only on your partner but
also on your child, So we want to be protective
against that.
Speaker 2 (01:26:03):
So she needs some time. She's going to need me
to support reasons in those early weeks. And then the
more time I can spend with my child, the more
I'm going to psychologically.
Speaker 1 (01:26:13):
Adjust to the more and the quicker you're going to
build your bond, because, as I said earlier, you build
your bond through interaction, and your partner's going to have
a head start she just is because of pregnancy and
child and if she's breastfeeding as well. Breastfeeding is really
good for releasing oxytocin. You have to do it through interaction,
and in those early weeks with the baby. They're very dependent,
and particularly if your partner is breastfeeding, they're very mon
(01:26:33):
focused because she is the source of food and newborn
babies feed for ages. So a lot of men say
to me, I want to build a relationship, but I
literally cannot find an in So what we say is
make something special, to make something that's yours. It could
be bathtime, it could be reading your baby a book.
It's never too early to begin reading your baby book.
Or a really good one is baby massage. Baby massage
(01:26:54):
is great because touch is the biggest release you of
bonding hormones there are. If you massage your baby, your
baby's getting all those lovely hormones and so are you,
so you're building that bond between you. You're close enough
that so your baby's getting sensory and put particularly sense
of smell. So baby's vision is not great when they're born,
but their sense of smell is brilliant because they're little mammals,
so they're starting to really get your smell and that's
(01:27:14):
going to help them attached to you. We also know
baby massage is one of the only really good interventions
that prevents postnatal depression in men.
Speaker 2 (01:27:22):
So I love that I've just had this little flashing
my head of all the babies that just got a
massage because you said that, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (01:27:28):
They're all blissed out. I mean, there's some brilliant videos
on YouTube, or if you want to learn, you don't
have to go to your class. Watch there's wonderful videos
of baby massage and whole classes of men massaging babies.
I mean, it's brilliant. So you also want to be
there because you need to build that bond and the
only way you're going to do that is interaction. And
so and as your baby develops, that interaction becomes easier
because the baby will start babbling, they'll start smiling. About
(01:27:49):
six to eight weeks, they'll start smiling and they'll start
smiling at you, and that's just you know that you
can forgive them anything when they do that. And then
they'll start, you know, really reacting when you come in,
being please to see you. Then they'll start giggling. And
then at about six months, if you are a rough and
tumble dad, you can start doing very gentle, rough and
tumble play with them and you can just take it
from there. The interaction grows more and more and more.
(01:28:10):
One of the things we have to prepare men for,
which I do a lot when I work with men
during pregnancy is the delay in bonding. So we have
this idea that baby's going to come out and we're
going to feel a flood of love and it's going
to be it's going to be like, oh, you know, shining, amazing, wonderful.
That doesn't happen with women a lot of the time,
but men find it very difficult because because they grow
(01:28:32):
their bond through interaction, when the baby comes out, they
don't have a recognition of connection. It's like, yes, that's
my baby, that's my genetic baby, it's genesetically related to me.
I am a father. I will look after it, but
it's very conscious. When I talk to my dad's quite
often when I visit them at two weeks, a lot
of them are worrying about the bond because they're not
feeling how they thought they would feel. They're looking at
their partner who's had a head start and thinking, well,
(01:28:55):
she's the gold standard of bonding, she's amazing at it.
I'm failing. My baby doesn't like me. I'm rubbish at this,
and that's not good for their mental health and what
they tend to do is withdraw from the baby, which
is the worst thing you can do. But then when
I speak to them at six months with the baby,
they all say, I love my baby deeply, and it's
categorically different to how I felt at the start, and
(01:29:15):
that's because they've had to interact for that time to
build that bond.
Speaker 2 (01:29:18):
Is it fair to say that the woman's bond comes
more hormonally and the farthest reaction comes more from interaction.
Speaker 1 (01:29:25):
Yeah, because you will get your hormones from your interaction,
where she has got her hormones mostly at the start
from being pregnant and giving birth and breastfeeding and breastfeeding,
so she's getting lots of physiologically based hormones, and she
will also get hormones from interaction. Obviously she will, but
she's ahead of you.
Speaker 2 (01:29:41):
You're gonna have to massage that baby together.
Speaker 1 (01:29:43):
You are really gonna have to message that baby.
Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
We'll play with them. I guess that's the other thing
you said. Yeah, you mentioned something before we started recording
which is curious to me and I've never heard of before,
which is you mentioned love drugs. Yes, I've never heard
of that before. Okay, I mean what's that like MDMA
or something.
Speaker 1 (01:29:57):
Yes, so we kind of probably know so just about
enough about the neurosciance of love now, particularly neurochemicals which
underpin it that should we wish to, we could finally
produce the elixir of love. So since we've written things down,
we have been fascinated with finding the elixir of love.
There's loads of ancient texts about potions that will make
you fall in love. It's something that as humans we've
(01:30:19):
always wanted, and it's partly because love is unpredictable and
uncontrollable and humans really can't deal with that. We like
to know what is going to happen, and we like
to be able to control it as far as we can.
So wouldn't it be great if you could pop a
pill or drink something which meant that when you went
out on a Friday night you were really good at
(01:30:40):
either being like the bell of the ball and attracting people,
or you could somehow get to be more attractive to people,
Or if you were in or you could make someone
fall in love with you, or if you're in a
long term relationship with a struggling there was some pill
that would help that long term relationship, and we are
kind of at that stage now with the neurosctance where
that would potentially be possible. And there are certainly research
(01:31:01):
groups who are looking into what chemicals are already out
there which kind of mimic that neurochemistry. Now there are
two big ones that we already have. The first is oxytocin.
Of course, oxytocin is synthesized. We use it in childbirth,
It induces childbirth and in studies where we wanted to
work out the impact of oxytocin on social behavior in
(01:31:21):
humans in labs, we squirt it up people's noses. You
can squirt it up people's noses and see what oxytocin
and what it does, if you want to know, in
most people is it makes them more empathetic, It makes
them more open to chatting to people, It makes them
more sociable, It makes them more positive about the people
around them from a social context. So brilliant. So one
of the possibilities is you produce synthetic oxytocin and you
(01:31:42):
sell it to people. And in fact, a few years
ago and I think they've taken it down there, there
was a drug on Amazon and eBay called oxy love.
It's a little thing like a prepa, like an eye
drop thing. What it would do if you squirted up
your nose is hopefully it would do what oxytocin does
in the normalological context. It would quire your amigdala. It
would make you more confident, it would make you feel
(01:32:05):
more open to starting relationships. You'd be better at chatting
to people. So it's like kind of like you know,
the you know, a couple of glasses of wine before
you go out. It makes you feel a little bit
more confident. It would be a little bit like that,
and that's one of the things they're looking into. The
issue with it is that you cannot guarantee the outcome
of using it. So what has been found is in
the vast majority of people it does what it should,
(01:32:27):
but there is a significant minority of people where it
does exactly the opposite, and it actually increases basically what
we call ethnocentrism, racism, bigotry, because what happens is they
become more tightly bonded to people they think are in
their in group, but if they perceive you to be
in their outgroup, they become more racist. So it makes
(01:32:47):
you identify more with what you perceived to be or
in group. Now, until you can arm that out, that
is not a drug you can release onto the market,
because that is not something you want to happen. Investigations
seem to have shown that it's something to do with genetics,
that some people's oxytocin receptor gene is slightly different, and
it's those people who will get the ethnocentrism result rather
than the socially confident result. So that's a problem, and
(01:33:11):
you can't go any further with oxytocin until you are
now that particular problem. The second one, which is more
encouraging from a scientific point of view, is MDMA ecstasy,
And for many years, people have anecdotically reported who use
ecstasy recreationally that it makes you feel overwhelming sensations sort
of love. It makes you feel very bonded to everybody
you're with. We know from lab studies that people who
(01:33:33):
take ecstasy on a regular basis actually become more empathetic
over time. It actually seems to permanently alter something. So
it seems to be possibly something a bit like Beecher
and orphin, which it underpins long term love. Great, so
they're engineering MDMA at the moment to try and find
out what the dosage to be and how we could
give it to people. And it's being used in marriage
therapy in the US at the moment as a trial
(01:33:54):
to see if it can assist in marriage therapy because
a lot of people who go to marriage therapy are
very entrenched in their position. They've lost empathy, they've lost
the ability to see the other point of view. And
so if you microdose ecstasy, which I don't suggest anybodyho
does with our clinical support, do you go into this session.
It opens up your empathy and you make progress because
of it. And there's been reasonably good results from marriage
therapy in a clinical setting. The issue with MDMA isn't
(01:34:17):
that it has different outcomes for people, to be honest,
some people it works and some people it just doesn't.
So you could take it for that reason and it
just wouldn't do what it's supposed to do. Fine. The
issue with MDMA is more around ethics because MDMA is
a powerful drug and we don't know yet what its
long term consequences would be. For example, if you did
(01:34:37):
take it for many, many years. The second thing we
don't really know is what happens if you stop. So
let's say you started a relationship taking MDMA. First ethical question,
should you tell the person you're in a relationship with? Secondly,
what happens if you stop? You get to the point where,
for whatever reason you decide to stop, is that love
going to go away? And again, if you haven't told
(01:34:58):
the person, you're kind of if it does go away,
mucking around with their life without them actually realizing that
that relationship was based upon an artificial stimulant. Essentially, we
have anecdotal We don't actually know whether it would stop
because we haven't done long term enough studies. Anecdotically, from
the recreational community, there have been stories about people who
have started relationships whilst clubbing taking ecstasy. Particularly one guy
(01:35:21):
who used to go back to his hometown every weekend,
take ecstasy, go clubbing, metagirl, but used to go away
to work during the week So every time he saw
his girlfriend in the first few months, it was at
the weekend. There were both he was on ecstasy, she wasn't,
and he fell in love with her and this was wonderful,
and they carried on and eventually they decided that actually, no,
we need to stop this long distance thing. She needs
(01:35:42):
to move and come with me. We think this has
got a future. She does that. Trouble is during the
week he's not on ecstasy, and quite quickly he realizes
he doesn't love her. Now he has uplifted up, you know,
upheaval of her whole life. Now he didn't do that
on purpose. He did not know that that was what
the impact would be. But if that's the impact of
a love drug, we have a problem. What do you
(01:36:03):
do in relationships with power and balances? What if you're
an abusive relationship and somebody gives it you without you
knowing and keeps you in that relationship because of it.
So there are lots of ethical questions. I think the
issue with love drugs is they will probably come because
they well be hugely commercially successful if they get a
(01:36:24):
commercial license. When I do talks, and I get to
this bit before I've even mentioned look, I ask people
to raise their hand and say, if a drug could
do this, would you take it? Fifty percent of the
audience raise their hand and say yes, I would. So
then you tell them what all the problems are, and
you tell them what the ethics might be. And at
the end I say again, would you take it? At
least tell twenty percent of the audience would now, because
(01:36:45):
love and dating is such a multi billion dollar industry.
If we get to the point where this can be
commercially produced, someone is going to make a lot of money.
And that's why I think it's probably on the horizon
unless the rules are so strict that it's only in settings,
and even then people get around rules. So that's the
issue with love drugs. The other one is the ssriyes,
(01:37:07):
which are depressed for depression. People who are on SSRIs
realize that they reduce your emotional abilities, they reduce your libido,
they reduce sensations of love, and so it has been
suggested again that SSRIs are engineered in some way to
help people deal with love trauma. So people who have
experienced very bad relationships and not that you can forget it.
(01:37:28):
Do you remember the film of Eternal Sunshine. Okay, it's
about a guy who wants to wipe his brain in
terms of a really bad relationship, and that's kind of
what suggested this could do. SSRIs can't do that, you
cannot wipe a memory, but they could maybe take away
some of the salients, some of the negative salients. The
issue again with that is that there are seventy two
countries in the world where homosexuality is still illegal, and
(01:37:51):
we know there are certain This was a brilliant book
called Love Drugs talked about a very extreme religious community
which was giving young men who had shown homosexual tendencies
ssriys to reduce their homosexual tendencies. And that in itself
is I believe, ethically unacceptable. And therefore, again we've got
(01:38:13):
to be aware that if we produce drugs, what could
they possibly be used for which is actually unacceptable and
how are we going to deal with that as a population.
So I think anything which comes into our intimate relationships,
like love drugs or AI or whatever, we have to
have that conversation now because getting it wrong has profound
impacts on our futures and on our health.
Speaker 2 (01:38:36):
Let's talk about attachment styles and monogamy and the neurodiversity
components of this. So if we start with attachment styles,
it's been so much said about attachment styles. Can you
sort of give my views a overview of what attachment
styles are and what we need to know about attachment
styles as relates to falling and holding on too love.
Speaker 1 (01:38:57):
Okay, I think the first thing you used understand is
what is an attachment reallytionship. Attachment relationships are very rare
in your life. You will have had them with whoever
brought you up, whoever cared for you, particularly in the
first two years of life. That's particularly significant. You will
have them with romantic partners, though not all romantic partners,
and you might have one with a best friend. They're
(01:39:17):
very emotionally intense. We recognize them for several criteria. First
of all, they're developmentally significant, so attachment relationships have the
ability to change your psychology now as a child. They
actually have the ability to change your actual brain architecture
as well, particularly in those first two years. Because babies
are born without their brains fully developed, that's why they're
(01:39:38):
so helpless. And in the first two years your brain
is growing very rapidly, and the environment to which you
are raised is going to fundamentally underpin the architecture of
your brain. So that's developmentally very significant. That first attachment
relationship you have with your parents, parents' careers, whoever has,
whoever's bringing you up. Babies will attach to literally anybody
who's meeting their needs to be honest, and that will
(01:39:59):
fundamentally or time your brain in either in a good
way or unfortunately in a less good way, depending on
how you're brought up. When you have a romantic relationship,
what they can do is they can alter your psychology,
particularly how anxious you are about being abandoned in that
relationship and how comfortable you are with emotional and physical intimacy.
Because I will tell you a story. When I met
my husband, I was very worried about him leaving me,
(01:40:23):
him abandoning me, and I dealt with that by being
monumentally clinging. And over time, we've been married for nearly
twenty five years, I became secure because he disapproved my
fear that he was going to leave, and I am
now secure. So he fundamentally changed my psychology. So they
can do that. And in romantic relationships, there are four
types of attachment relationship, and we place you in one
(01:40:46):
of those sectors based upon two different factors. The first
is how anxious you are about abandonment. That's the first one.
We ask you lots of questions to work out how
anxious you are about that. The second one is how
much you want to maintain proximity. So again, we'll ask
you questions about how close you like to be to
the person, whether you maintain closeness because you're anxious, or
(01:41:07):
whether you maintain closeness because you love intimacy, or whether
you run away from intimacy at a rate of knots,
And depending on how you answer, we put you in
one of four categories. So if you are not anxious
in relationships about abandonment, but you are very comfortable with
proximity emotional, physical intimacy, then you're secure and it's what
it sounds like. You are very comfortable in your individuality.
(01:41:27):
You gain huge benefits from being in that relationship, but
you don't need that relationship to exist to define you.
The next one is people who are highly anxious about
abandonment and crave proximity. And that was me preoccupied. So
they are very anxious about being left and the way
they deal with it like I did, or still cling
to maintain because if I keep an eye on you,
(01:41:48):
it's going to be okay. Then we have the two
avoidant attachment styles. So first of all, we have people
who are very anxious about being abandoned but don't maintain proximity.
They find intimacy are uncomfortable and the reason for that
they're known as fearful avoidant people. And the reason they
do that is the way they cope with the stress
of possibly being left is they just don't have relationships
(01:42:10):
because then I can't be hurt if you do that.
And finally we have dismissing avoidant. Dismissing avoidant people are
the smallest part of the population generally, and they aren't
worried about abandonment, but they also don't like proximity. To
be honest, they're islands. They're not that bothered about being
in a relationship, and one of the drivers for that
might be that they're not very comfortable with them intimacy.
(01:42:31):
But some people literally just not wanthered.
Speaker 2 (01:42:34):
Can you be shades? So? Could? Is you know the
avoidant category? Does that exist on a spectrum?
Speaker 1 (01:42:39):
And the yes it does. The reason I mean all
attachments are a spectrum. The reason why we categorize them
is typical scientists, we like a category because when we've
got a category, we can do data analysis and we
can decide the sorts of behaviors for example, that these
four quarters perform, or we can put somebody in one
and help them change to another. For example, do.
Speaker 2 (01:42:58):
You think the way that modern society is is breeding
a certain group of attachment styles? Do you understand the
question one trying? I do.
Speaker 1 (01:43:07):
I think we are getting less comfortable with intimacy, and
I think that's partly because we are not as practiced
at as we used to be, Because we are not
as we're not forced to be in close contact with
a lot of people as much as we used to be.
You can pretty much do everything from your sofa. You
can work from your sofa, you can order food from
(01:43:27):
your sofa, you can try and maintain your relationships with
your friends from your sofa. You don't actually have to
be in a room with anyone. After COVID, there's a
lot of data showing that people found it. People are
much less interested now in meeting up. They kind of
got used to being in that little bobble and even
though they had the yearning of I don't have anyone
with me, they become they became much more anxious about
going out and actually seeing anybody. And it wasn't just
(01:43:49):
because they were already about COVID. We got out of
the habit, and if you get out of the habit,
you don't get any of the chemicals which encourage you
to go out. You certainly don't get any of the
addictivemics like beuter and dorphin, So you kind of go
a bit cold turkey slowly, and you just don't have
that draw to go and see people anymore from a
biological point of view, and from a psychological point of view,
(01:44:11):
it becomes a little bit scary, so you just stay
where you are. So I think we are seeing more
avoidant behaviors in people than we used to.
Speaker 2 (01:44:20):
You talked about the role of dopamine in getting us to, like,
you know, get up and put our shoes and then
get out of the house. And obviously there's lots of
things now at home that are giving us dopamine. Whether
it's social media, or it's pornography, or if it's I guess,
you know, there's other substances that give us dopamine. And
I wondered if that's if you thought that maybe that's
playing a role in.
Speaker 1 (01:44:38):
I think that is playing a role because we get
that hit and dopaninese and ice. It gives you a reward.
The problem it has is on its own, it has
no bearing on social relationships or social behavior. You need
to have the full cocktail. So that's what I say
to people about social media when they say, you know,
but I'm giving a dopamine here, It's like, yeah, you are,
and that's great, but don't mean it's very short lasting
(01:44:59):
on it's only doesn't underpin your immune system or your
health in any way. You need the full lot. You
need the full four social chemicals to get any advantage
out of it. So that is the problem. And I
think people, because we've heard a lot about dopamine, think
that don't mean alone is going to make you happy,
and it's not.
Speaker 2 (01:45:17):
You know, only we talked about these people that go
one hundred dates and maybe that they don't have the
true intention to actually form a relationship. Speaking sort of broadly,
what attachment style do you think those kind of people
fit into.
Speaker 1 (01:45:29):
Those people are avoidant, so they're either dismissing avoidant, which
means they don't have any of the anxiety associated with relationships,
or they're fearful avoidance, so they avoid them because they're
scared of being hurt.
Speaker 2 (01:45:41):
So when people talk about daddy issues or I guess
you could say mummy issues where the father has abandoned
that child at an early age. Do you think generally
those people have a higher probability of being fearful avoidant.
Speaker 1 (01:45:59):
They certainly have a higher probability of having an insecure
attachment style, because, as I mentioned, in the first two
years of life, when your brain is growing, the environment
in which you're being cared for is going to shape
that brain. Particularly if, for example, a parent leaves during
that time or even later on when it's still quite
a sensitive brain, that's going to impact how your brain grows,
(01:46:19):
particularly in that prefrontal core. Take so the bit right
at the front here, okay, where all your social cognition is,
and it's going to have less gray and white matter
in that area, it's going to have less density of
neurons and less of a high level of neurochemistry which
underpins social behavior. And because of that, when you're an adult,
you're just not as equipped to be good at relationships
(01:46:40):
because your brain you don't actually have the brain architecture
to underpin it. So that's one of the reasons why
we see people who grow up in that environment being
more insecure because they don't have the brain architecture or
indeed the neurochemical the baseline neurochemical levels circulating in their body,
which is going to motivate and reward them the starting relationships.
So they just don't have the equipment that people who
(01:47:02):
maybe grew up in a secure environment do, So that's
one of the problems. And so when people say daddy issues,
partly what they're talking about is attachment style. It is
the fact that I have this attachment style, and I've
identified I have this attachment style because my father left
whenever I when I was however old. Now, whether that's
the entire reason, there are other reasons why people behave
(01:47:22):
the way they do and might not want relationships. There
are genetic reasons, So there are lots of reasons why
attachment styles can change, oh completely.
Speaker 2 (01:47:30):
And the way that they change is is it accurate
to say someone gives you evidence the counteraction.
Speaker 1 (01:47:35):
That's one of the ways. And in one sense, that's
the easiest way because in a way, I didn't know
what was happening. This happened long before I studied attachment styles.
I think I was still chasing monkeys at this point.
But so that's the easiest way. Is literally you end
up with someone who's secure, and over time they just
get into your brain and they show you you are wrong.
Other ways are being conscious about what your attachment style
(01:47:59):
is and being con just about how it doesn't work
for you. There is no wrong attachment style. That's what
I want to say. If you feel comfortable in your
attachment style, brilliant, that's great. It's when it doesn't work
for you that there's a problem. And so there. I
always think everyone should kind of keep an eye on
what their attachment style is. I think it's quite an
important thing to realize. If you see yourself, for example,
(01:48:20):
repeating the same things over and over again in relationships,
so it gets to a certain point and you leg it.
For example, it's all getting a bit intense, so I'm
now going to run away, or you always end up
pushing people away for example, maybe because you're too preoccupied
or whatever. And it's good if you see that pattern,
if you are conscious enough to recognize that pattern, then
you can do work on yourself, or you can ask
your friends to help you. Okay, if you see me
do this, you need to flag it. You need to
(01:48:42):
tell me you're doing it again. You need to step
beyond that, and it will need support. You'll need emotional support.
Either just from friends and family, or you might need
professional help. There are attachment counselors who will help you'll
understand where your attachment style came from, and they will
help you do the work to shift so you can
do it that way. And then obviously at the very extreme,
that's attachment disorders and they always need input from as
(01:49:03):
a professional.
Speaker 2 (01:49:03):
One of the things that I've found to be particularly
useful is vocalizing my attachment style to my partner and
her doing the same back, so that we can both
kind of hold understand the other person, even though it
might not be us and we don't understand that clinging
behavior or that avoidant behavior. Vocalizing it in the way
that you've said, not just becoming self aware, but like
mutually aware has really helped us because I can now
(01:49:24):
understand her behavior. She's much more on the I don't
want to say clinging, but she needs that sort of
reassurance of my presence and now behavior that I might
have thought in the past was a bit irrational, I
now understand more contextually and therefore able to be more empathetic.
Speaker 1 (01:49:45):
And more and that's really important. It's really important to
do that because you know, we all attached in different ways,
and by understanding that it helps you. As you say,
if someone's really clinging, it can feel quite fust to.
But if you understand actually that, especially if you're avoidant,
particularly quite triggering. And that's what we know. We know
there are certain attachment styles that work better together than others.
So we know, particularly a dismissing avoidant person with a
(01:50:06):
preoccupied person, that's really tricky to keep going. That is
that is a long term relationship, which is if it
can carry on, is going to be very hard work
and probably quite roller coastery. I would say, whereas you know,
if any of the of the insecure so I'm doing
this because it's agreed the any of the insecure attachment styles,
if you can find yourself someone's secure, brilliant. Secure people
(01:50:27):
are amazing because they will absorb all that stuff because
they're so secure in themselves. Whether you're clingy, whether you're
pushing them away, they absorb it and they're good at it.
Preoccupied and fearful avoidant, that works quite well in one
sense because the preoccupied person wants to stick with the
fearful avoidant person. And the thing that's really really troubling
the fearful avoidant person is you're going to leave. So
(01:50:49):
if you literally sit on top of them, which is
what you're doing, if you're preoccupied, then that's great in
one sense because they will think, oh, okay, they're literally
not going anywhere because they're there all the time. So
there are partnerships that work better. And I do agree
with you. I think it's good to be aware of
what each within a partnership is because then you can
understand some of the quirks in behavior, you can understand
some of your reactions to that behavior.
Speaker 2 (01:51:10):
Neurodiversity. In the last couple of weeks, I was thinking
it might be my attachment style, but it also might
be the fact that I was diagnosed with ADHD, which
I'm not sure if I have, but I was diagnosed
with it. I was thinking about how a neurodiverse person
might struggle in love and holding onto relationships because of
their neurodiversity. Before we started talking, you said that roughly,
(01:51:31):
I think twenty five percent of the population are classified
as neurodiverse in some context. If I have ADHD or autism,
how am I likely or more likely to struggle in love?
Speaker 1 (01:51:42):
Firstly, because the biggie is that the neuroscience and genetics
of love are very light the neuroscience and genetics of neurodiversity.
So the chemistry that underpins love is also implicated in neurodiversity.
Some of the areas of the brain which are activated
in love are also involved in neurodiversity, and that is why,
(01:52:03):
particularly with autism, but also with ADHD, the issues that
people who are autistic or ADHD have express themselves a
lot in the social sphere because it's the same neurochemistry
and genetics essentially. So for example, the oxytocin receptor gene
which has twenty six point mutations on it which impact
your social behavior and individual differences in social behavior, a
(01:52:25):
lot of those are implicated also in autism. Dopamine is
implicated obviously in ADHD. Serotona is implicated in ADHD. Those
are both chemicals which are involved in love are one
of the neurochemicals of love, so there is some major
crossovers between the two. There are several reasons why neurodiversity
is difficult. For example, the way the neurodiverse brain works,
(01:52:49):
things like executive function is different in people with neurodiverse brains.
Executive function is things like attention, emotional inhibition, and working memory.
It's kind of the set of skills that allow you
to operate within the world. That's that's impacted in ADHD
and in autism. The processing speeds and also the way
(01:53:10):
that you process those particular three elements as different. For example,
people with ADHD, their working memory generally isn't great. They
find it difficult to recall things or hold onto things.
Emotional regulation is difficult, so for example, people with ADHD
might build to anger quicker than people who don't have it.
People with autism tend to have quite extreme extremes of
(01:53:31):
emotional experience, for example, and all of that is very
difficult in a relationship because if you live with someone
who has extreme emotional reactions or gets very angry in
conflicts very quickly, that's tricky to deal with. We also
know things like sensory processing, particularly in autism, is affected,
So that has two implications. First of all, when we're
using all that sensory information in the attraction stage, so
(01:53:52):
all that sensory information that's going into your limbic area,
the sensory processing speeds in people with autism tend to
be slower. They also tend to be either hypersensory, which
means they feel all the senses very intensely, or they
tend to have different experiences of sensors, or they tend
to have very low sensory experience. And all of that
will impact, first of all, how that algorithm operates in
(01:54:14):
your brain. It will also impact just simply things like
the environment in which you might go on a date.
So maybe we want to go on a date to
a restaurant or a pub, or a comedy club or wherever.
For autistic people, that's really hard to deal with. We
also know, unfortunately, the people who are in your adverse
are more likely to be an abusive relationships, and there
(01:54:35):
are reasons for that. If we look at ADHD. ADHD
is a dysfunction of the dopamine system in the brain.
So what happens is you release dopamine, but it's really
it's taken back up into the brain before it has
enough of an effect. So what people with ADHD tend
to do is they dopamine seek, They do activities which
give them a hit of dopamine. So you know, I
have my daughter, I hope she should usually doesn't mind
(01:54:57):
my daughter's ADHD. Autistic her doping me is he is shopping.
She dopam seeks by shopping because she a lovely dopamine
hit when you do it. But unfortunately, the start of
relationships is a dopamine c you get lots of lovely
dopamine and style of relationships. So what you're tend to
find with ADHD people is they will go into relationships
really quickly without really considering is this person right for me?
So there's that impulsivity that comes with ADHD as well,
(01:55:19):
because they're getting that hit of dopamine at the start.
We also know that, for example, if you are neurodiverse,
you tend to mask a lot you've got used to
do in life, masking to fit in with a neurotypical
world's masking is knowing the rules of the neurotypical world. So,
for example, autistic girls, the reason why autistic girls tend
to be diagnosed later is they become very good at
(01:55:40):
learning the social rules. So all those things that they
would naturally want to do in a social situation, you know,
be mute, or not reciprocate properly, or you know, not
say the right thing, they learn what the rules are.
That's why they burn out generally is because they've spent
the whole childhood studying it and going okay, So in
that circumstance, I do this, and in that circumstance, I
do this, and they hide the autism. Now, So not
(01:56:02):
only is that incredibly stressful, but if you've got used
to in life denying who you are, if you go
into a relationship with someone particular, if they're particularly dominant
or they're abusive, you carry on denying who you are,
denying that you have a right, for example, to be
with someone who's kind, you know, deny the fact that
you have needs. And so we know that people who
mask find it much much harder to express what they
(01:56:25):
want in a relationship. So it is it is really
incredibly tricky, I think. And you know, we also have
issues with empathy. For example, there's a myth particularly autistic
people don't empathize. That's not true. It's unfortunately studying the
diagnostic criteria, and it shouldn't be. The issue is is
that they empathize in a different way, and so either
(01:56:47):
they are actually hyper empaths, which means that they feel
the other person's emotions so strongly that they shut down,
and so they don't actually respond to the person because
they can't cope with the extreme emotional overload they've had.
Or the other reason is they do empathize, but they
empathize with a neurodiverse brain. And there's been a recent
study looking at this and saying, actually, if you put
(01:57:08):
two new neurodiverse people together and asen to empathize with
each other, they're brilliant. Putwo neurotypical people together, brilliant asking
you're a diverse person, a neurotypical person to empathize, it's
hard because the brain operates in a different way. So
empathy is the basis of relationships. So if you are
in a mixed relationship neurotypical neurodiverse, that can be tricky
(01:57:28):
because it can be very hard to empathize with the
other person and know what their emotional needs.
Speaker 2 (01:57:32):
Are. On this point, then if if we accept that
people with ADHD have been diagnosed with ADHD, so everything
I say is within that context, have higher impulsivity, and
they have higher no seeking behavior, novelty seeking behavior, and
they have struggles with emotional regulation, and they have some
(01:57:55):
executive function which is going to impair their ability to
think about sort of like the stakes and foresight and
all these things. Does that mean that people with ADHD
are more likely to cheat on you? There's actually a
study which looked at this in twenty fifteen. It suggested
that adults with ADHD were more likely to report infidelity
than non ADHD peers. However, the effects size was not overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (01:58:20):
Yes, I'm always wary of studies like that because, first
of all, if the effect size is not overwhelming, I
think we have to be very careful of labeling neurodiverse
people as the problem in a relationship. And I'm very
aware of that. I do a lot of training on this,
particularly for therapists, and I think we need to be
aware that all relationships are a interaction between two people,
and they will each bring their issues, and I think
(01:58:41):
the labeling of people with neurodiversity as the problem is
not on. We all, whether we're neurodiverse or not, have
to learn to adapt to the other person, and we
have to educate ourselves about how their brain works attachment,
whatever it might be, and therefore I think we need
to be careful. I think with ADHD, what we do
know is people with ADHD are more likely to have
many more short term relationships because they get bored quite easily.
(01:59:03):
They are also much more likely to undertake risky sexual
behavior cheating, maybe because they are that because of the impulsivity.
So it might be I would want to see that
study replicated many times before I think we say that's
a fundamental issue, and I would also question, you know,
if it's got a very small effects size. There's many
other reasons why people cheat.
Speaker 2 (01:59:23):
So do you know what? I think? In part the
reason why I ask that question is because again, one
of my very good friends has struggled in this regard
for many, many years. He's approaching his forties now, and
he's what part of the relationship is. Well, it's not
necessarily what he struggled with. It's what he loves. He loves,
as he says to me, the chase. He says, I
love the chase. And when you really just love the
(01:59:44):
chase and you maybe don't love the part after it
as much, you're not going to have a great relationship.
And he got to I think about thirty five, thirty
six years old, and he was diagnosed with ADHD, and
it put the rest of his life in context. I mean,
of all the people that I know that have ALHD.
Most certainly he fits the sort of criteria. And he
looked back through his old report cards and he looked
mapped to the behavior that he had in relationships. It
(02:00:06):
was very impulsive, it was very very short term. He loves.
He goes on more dates than anyone I've ever met
in my entire life because he loves the as he says,
the chase, and I thought, you know, maybe there is
a link there with his neurodiversity.
Speaker 1 (02:00:19):
Obviously, I would say the probably is I mean he's
dopamine seeking. Yeah, essentially, that's what he's doing because the
early stages, you know, when you get flopped, When you
get further into a relationship, dopamine takes more of a
back seat, and Beatre and Doorphin comes in, so Beatre
and Dolphin is the chemical of long term love. Dopamine
is much more in the background at that point, so
we get the major part of our dopamine hits and
(02:00:41):
relationships at the start. And that's probably why he gets
to a point where the dophamine starts tailing off, the
oxytocin starts to tail off, and Beata and Doorphin starts
Kiki and it becomes less exciting. That's when we move
from passionate love to companionate love, and it's just not
as exhilarating.
Speaker 2 (02:00:56):
Maybe, So if you have a brain like that that's
highly dopamine seeking, you're going to theoretically struggle to have
long term relationships.
Speaker 1 (02:01:05):
And we know that. We know that. I recently did
a conference which was on women in ADHD and we
had a workshop and most of the women in that
room said, I either don't have relationships, or I struggle,
or I'm in a long term relationship, but it is
a daily struggle to maintain it because it's so hard
to keep your attention on that relationship, to not look
(02:01:27):
for the novelty elsewhere, and also for the other person,
particularly if then neurotypical to deal with. I mean, one
woman said to me, I'm always told I'm too much,
I'm too much to go out with because of the
impulsivity and the rushing around and the lack of attention
and the lack of calmness and.
Speaker 2 (02:01:42):
They need for spontaneity. I guess, yeah, what can one
do about it?
Speaker 1 (02:01:46):
I don't like pushing drugs on anybody, and I think
whether you take medication for ADHD is a very personal decision.
But I think if the match I have is if
your ADHD is fundamentally upsetting your life and you feel that,
then it's something you maybe need to consider. It's very
difficult to do just off your own back. It's not
(02:02:07):
a therapy issue. It's not, you know, an attachment issue.
It's very likely to be a neurochemical issue, and that's
a different thing. I would also say it's also about
the people who you go out with. I've spoken to
lots of couples which are mixed in terms of your
adversity and neurotypical, and it's about the person who's neurotypical
really educating themselves about how the neurodiverse brain works so
they have an understanding also about why is that person
(02:02:29):
reacting like that? Why are they doing that? And that's
also really really important. I don't think we want to
put the burden always on neurodiverse people to change, because
I don't think that's really an acceptable thing to ask
them to do. I don't think it's really any different
from any relationship. The best relationships are ones where we
take the time to really understand who our partner is.
That's the way it works best. So you saying you
(02:02:50):
and your partner talk about your attachment styles. That's really important.
You're fundamentally making it clear that that's important to you
and that your partner has an understanding, and you're explaining
your behavior, and I think that's important.
Speaker 2 (02:03:02):
I wonder how this stuff tells into the subject of
sex and novelty and spontaneity as it relates to sex.
If you're not a divergent person, or you just have
a higher you know, impulse desire I guess, or impulsivity
need for novelty, you probably get bored of sex pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (02:03:19):
Possibly, yeah, I mean it's not an area I study particularly,
but I think yes, you probably do. And we know
that humans, some humans are genetically neurodivergent or not. Some
humans are genestically predisposed to like novelty more than others.
It's part of the one of the dopamine genes. And
so some people, yes, they are more likely to seek
out novelty and want for example, yes, very varied sex life.
But you know that's something you can have with one individual.
(02:03:41):
You don't necessarily have to go out, and you know,
if that individual is willing to go down that route
with you. It's not something you necessarily have to seek elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (02:03:48):
As it relates to all the work that you do
and the future work that you're going to go on
to do. What is the most important thing? We haven't
talked about that? Maybe we should have talked about two things.
Speaker 1 (02:03:58):
I really really want to emphasize the body of work
which shows that your relationships are the biggest factor in
your health, your longevity, and your well being. And the
reason why I want to emphasize that is because in
a world of digital communication, we have become much less
good at nurturing our relationships, much less good at impact
in putting into our relationships, maintaining our relationships in the
(02:04:19):
way they should be maintained, which is in person, and
that has consequences for our health. You know, a wonderful study,
the first study of its kind in twenty ten. There
have been many sins by Julie Holt lunsterd she but
she did a massive meta analysis which has lots of
lots of studies coming together looking at the impact of
your social network, your relationships, all those sorts of things
on outcomes, health outcomes, things like the likelihood that you
(02:04:41):
would have poor mental health, the likelihood that you would
suffer from certain chronic diseases, the likelihood that you would
recover from certain illnesses, or how long it would take
you to come back round after having it in operation
in terms of getting better. And she found, and it's
been even more impressive since then, that your relationships are
the biggest factor in your health, well being and longevity
above all else, from don't smoke, make to any good weight,
(02:05:03):
do your exercise, eat your vegetables, all those sorts of things.
Above all of that sit your relationships. So when we
in this very health conscious world where we have lots
of health influencers and all that kind of thing, we're
Stell missing that point. And we're Stell trying to do
our relationships efficiently in this busy, busy world. And I
understand why. And the tools we've been given to do
(02:05:25):
it are attractive. You know, they're attractive. We love a
new shiny thing humans and they're great. But what's happened
is we've forgotten who we are and how we need
to do. And our brains did not evolve with the
shiny screen. Our brains evolved in the world where we
all lived very very close together, and we need to
kind of in a way go back to that if
you want to have that fulfilling life. So I think
that's my first point. I think the second one is
(02:05:48):
the role for AI. And you've probably talked about AI
and so many different contexts, but AI and our intimate relationships,
and I don't mean just sexually intimate, I mean emotionally intimate.
That any relationship you have based on love is something
we need to talk because there is work towards For example,
we know about AI chatbots already, and we know that
there's going to be a work towards having AI caretakers
(02:06:11):
for example, people who care for people, robots who care
for people, or even you know, you could even possibly
have a relationship. I'm not talking about the sexpots, but
I'm talking about a full relationship with the robot. Again,
all of these things we need to understand the implications,
and we need to have a conversation now, because when
you unleash these things, if you haven't had that conversation,
it's very hard to put them back in the box.
And we know already things like chatbots are out there,
(02:06:32):
and I'm not the sort to say something is entirely
negative so chatbots have their place. They've been shown to
be really, really good, particularly with people who have social
anxiety or people who are, for example, autistic and want
to practice being social. They're really good. You're not going
to get any criticism from this chatbot. You're not going
to get a fund you've face pulled or make them
feel uncomfortable. It's great. You can have a good old
and that's brilliant. It's when you replace real human contact. Absolutely,
(02:06:56):
it makes the conversation feel a lot more comfortable and natural,
and you can really focus on the chat itself distractions.
It definitely helps keep the vibe positive.
Speaker 2 (02:07:09):
Isn't it crazy how much that's progressed.
Speaker 1 (02:07:11):
Yeah, it is. But what scares me about it is
that person talking to you there your brain at the moment,
because we haven't advanced enough in AI, maybe well knows
that's not human. And because it knows it's not human,
it's not releasing any of the positive chemicals that come
with social interaction in your brain. And it's those chemicals
that underpin your health, your mental health and your physical
(02:07:32):
health beach run off and underpins your immune system. So
that's the problem. Your prefrontal cortex at the moment is
not recognizing that as human, so it's not going to
kick off anything, and that is the problem. Now, maybe
a robotic you know, an AI guy would say to me, oh,
we'll get there. Okay, if you can get there, great,
But at the moment we're not, and we have people
who are starting to build really strong attachments to these things.
(02:07:54):
You can build an attachment to a chat, but it's
a parasocial relationship, the same as building a relationship to
celebrity you've never met, but you're not getting any other
positive benefits. So have them in their life, have them
as part of your social network if you want to
spend time, but do not replace humans with them, or
even dogs with them. Care robot's scare me because again
(02:08:16):
it's about replacing humans in a context which is very
very complicated from a neuroscientific point of view. Care requires empathy,
it requires, i think, all which occurs in very close
human relationships. Again underpins our immune system and our health,
known as bio behavioral synchrony. So by a behavioral synchrony,
(02:08:36):
we won't have it. Now, I'm really sorry, we're not
close enough. But you will have it with your partner.
So when you're with your partner. If I were to
observe you, your body language and maybe the gestures you
use and your vocal tone and maybe the language you
use would start kind of matching each other. We all
know this for management training. You know you match people
to make them feel close to you. Fine, that's what
humans do. It makes us feel close to each other.
But if we were to look into your body, you
(02:08:58):
and your partner would have entered that really at different
baseline levels of physiological measures such as your blood pressure,
your heart rate, your body temperature. Okay, if you sat
together and had a chat for five minutes, those would
all come into synchrony, so your heart rates would synchronize,
your body temperature, and your blood pressure. And then if
we were to look into your brain, two things would
have happened. First of all, having come into the room
again with different activation patterns in your brain, we would
(02:09:21):
look in your brain and your activation patterns would be
the same, so you'd be perceiving the world in the
same way. And finally, if we look at your neurochemical levels,
so we generally look at oxytocin because it's easiest to access. Again,
we all have baseline levels of oxytocin. They're different from
each other. You would have walked in with different levels.
After five minutes they would have synchronized, they would be
the same. So what actually happens when you're with someone
(02:09:42):
you're close to to develop that bond is you become
one organism. You are literally operating as one being. And
we think that, in a way, is the absolute fundamental
basis of human close love. That it's the fundameter. And
you don't get that at the moment with an AI robot.
And I can't imagine it being easy because you need
a wet brain and you need a circulatory system.
Speaker 2 (02:10:04):
This picture I have here which talks about the brain
and love, what is that showing? That's showing that we
can I'll throw it up on the screen, But yes,
it's showing that we can't get the same depth of
love as it relates to neuroscience, then we can from
a human versus like a pet.
Speaker 1 (02:10:19):
Yes, so what's happening here? So we've got all the
different sorts of love. So we've got romantic love and
parental love. Now, these two arguably are the most intense
forms of love. Okay, that's why you see such amazingly
complex areas of the brain lightp You've got a lot
happening in the core of the brain here, this is
the limbic system, and you've got happening neocortically as well,
in relation to areas related to social behavior, but also
(02:10:41):
things like empathizing, okay, and maintenance and trust and all
those sorts of things. Love for a friend is from
a neuroscientific point of view, nearly as complicated as romantic love.
But what it doesn't actually have, which is really interesting,
is in romantic love, the difference is we actually get
some activations which mirror the activations you get if you're
on an opiate, that sort of addictive euphoric sensation. You
(02:11:05):
get that pattern in romantic love. You don't get it
in friendship love. You also don't generally get by behavior
synchrony in friendship unless it's a really close friend. So
friendship love is just less intense. It's a love, but
it's not as intense. I wouldn't describe this as love
for a stranger. What you can see. The reason why
I say that is, can you see how little unconscious
(02:11:25):
activation there is. This is the limbic area. But that's
the same with the pet we're not getting any unconscious
nurturing attachment behaviors which you wouldn't expect to get with
a stranger with a pet. I'm surprised to look at this,
and I don't know where this came from, because other
studies have shown that pet love is very like parental love.
Oh really, yeah, So I don't know which study this is,
(02:11:47):
and I don't know what they looked at are how
many people they looked at? So that's interesting. But what
I would expect to see more more actually here in
the nurturing area of that, because we do know that
you can build an attachment relationship with a pet. So
it's very surprising that there's nothing there.
Speaker 2 (02:12:04):
The research you have there looked at the differences between
friends lovespet strangers. It's from Renee Ettel Cerebral Cortex, a
twenty twenty four study.
Speaker 1 (02:12:14):
Okay, okay, that's interesting. I mean with science, you sometimes
get different answers because you've done different methodology, you've got
different populations. We tend to like to see things replicated
for them to be perferved. So I'm a bit surprised
by this. Also in my book, I talk about some
really good studies that have been done looking at dog
human love. So I'm surprised by that. I'm not surprised
that it's got quite a bit of cortical action. I'm
(02:12:36):
really surprised it has nothing in the limbic area because
that's where attachment is and love for nature. Again, this
is really interesting because again this is the striatum and
the amigdala and this is where human love, like to
another sentient being would be, and again we've got nothing.
So love for nature is a much more it's not
a conscious thing, but it's a much less emotional thing.
(02:12:59):
It's different, and we only really see patterns like this
if you're interacting with another sentient being. And this is
what kind of worries me about AI, because if you
did this with AI, you would probably get something like this.
If you really loved your AI robot at the moment,
or your chatbot, you would get this. But I would
be very surprised if you've got anything in the limbic area,
(02:13:20):
And the studies so far show that we don't, because
you don't develop that loving relationship and you certainly don't
get anything in the prefrontal cortex. And that's the problem. Now,
AI might go on in leaps and bounds. But I
at the moment when they talk about programming empathy, empathy
is so complicated, and particularly the empathy we have. We
have cognitive empathy. Most animals have emotional empathy, so cognitive
(02:13:41):
empathy is much more complex. It's very hard to do.
And the fact you can't get by behavior synchrony unless
you have a wet system, and robots so far don't
have wet systems. So that's what worries me. But it's
going to come and we have to have that conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:13:57):
We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves
quest for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving
it for. Okay, and the question that's been left for you,
was there a moment in your career when you said
to yourself, I have made it.
Speaker 1 (02:14:17):
I think I'm not good at doing that. Actually, I
said to my husband the other day, I'm not good
at celebrating when I do something, so I tend to
go what's next. I suppose one of the times I
thought I probably had made it was when I starved
at the University of Oxford and I was working with
Robin Dunbar, and then I thought. From an academic point
of view, this is like the pinnacle of where you
(02:14:39):
can work with a team of people who are at
the forefront of what they're doing. So I think that
was probably a moment. But I'm really good in retrospect
at kind of rewriting that and going, yeah, but that
wasn't good enough, so let's go and do the next thing.
Speaker 2 (02:14:52):
So if we look forward then sat here, Now, what
do you think the moment will be in your future
where you think you've made it, although you probably when
you arrive there you'll think.
Speaker 1 (02:15:04):
I think it's partly to do with the spreading of education.
I think if my next book reaches a lot of
people and reaches enough people, I will think I've made
it and I've done my mission to share what we
know about dads because there's so much written and it
stays in fusty old journals and nobody reads it. And
(02:15:26):
I want to share that because it fundamentally changes how
who dads think they are and how they do it.
I get so many emails from people saying, you know, wow,
I've read your book, and it like legitimizes so much
for me. It makes me understand what I'm going through
or it makes me realize that I am needed, And
I think if I can get a book that has
a really diverse readership, then that will be the moment
(02:15:46):
I think, yes, I've done what I want to do.
Speaker 2 (02:15:48):
And what is the unheard plight of dads? Because you'll
be on the receiving end of so many messages and
emails and stuff. What if you could summarize how dads
are feeling at the moment and why your work is resonating.
How would you summarize if you were speaking as a dad,
a dad who represents the average of the dads that
contact you, what would those sentences be.
Speaker 1 (02:16:09):
It would be I'm made to feel unimportant. I am
made to feel like a secondary parent, like a bad
carrier or the person who makes the tea. That's particularly
in relation to like birth and anti natal stuff. So
it's all about them not feeling like they are important
or that they're needed, and they are so wrong?
Speaker 2 (02:16:29):
Is the law slightly biased towards Do you know how
I asked that question. I was in a cab the
other day and I got in this taxi in London
and the cab driver spent about thirty minutes telling me
that he'd been at a march in London for dads
and that he had his child taken off him, I believe,
(02:16:50):
And he was proceeded to tell me for the next
sort of twenty minutes that the laws are unfair as
it relates to dad's right to see you and take
care of their kids. You probably know the laws better and.
Speaker 1 (02:17:00):
I do, but it is and I've spent a long
time and I'm still not there yet wanting to go
into the family courts in Britain and inform them about this,
because at the moment they're operating on moded understanding that
the primary person a child needs is their mum, and therefore,
if there's any possible reason why Dad they don't think
(02:17:22):
Dad is appropriate, whatever it might be, it might be
that dad's a living too far away, or dad's job
doesn't allow for it. They will not stick to the
presumption of fifty to fifty custody, and they will swing
it all over in terms in favor of mum, for example.
And that is because they do not fundamentally understand how
important that father is to that child. And that's because
they've not kept up. They're literally they're operating on very outmoded,
(02:17:44):
completely culturally based, not evident based at all, assumptions about
who a father is. So he's right, He's absolutely right.
And there are many men who are in that position.
And I get emailed all the time from men doing,
and all the time from people saying, you know, will
you come and be my expert witness exit I can't
do it. I don't have time to do it. But yeah,
there's a fundamental misunderstanding of how important parts are. But
(02:18:05):
that's just reflecting a wider cultural problem.
Speaker 2 (02:18:11):
Thank you, Thank you so much for doing the what
you're doing, because you're certainly opening millions and millions of
people's eyes. You've opened my eyes in a bunch of
profound ways, both on the subject of love but also
on the importance of fatherhood. And it is very easy
to believe the sort of broader social narrative that as
a father you are surplus to requirements, or you're some
I don't know, you're there to pay for things, or
(02:18:32):
you're less important in some way. But you know, I've
got a brother who's a year older than me, and
he's got three kids under the age of six, and
he's really managed to design his life around being there
for those kids, and I've seen both the impact that
that's had on those kids in their development, but also
the impact it's had on him and the meaning he
has his life. And he's one of those fathers that
(02:18:52):
walked away from the corporate world and made a decision
to prioritize the three little children that he's brought into
this world. And it's really like kind of open my
own I guess stereotypes and presumptions that I had about
the role that I have when I become a dad,
And now much of the reason I have these conversations
and enjoy your work so much is because it's a
further reminder that the narrative I've believed around father is
(02:19:14):
being this you know, kind of distant being that floats
in and out provides you blow it open, and you
blow it open from an anthropological perspective and evolutionary perspective
and a neuroscience and biological perspective, which I think is
really critical. And I think because of that, there's going
to be so many kids that have better development outcomes.
(02:19:34):
And so please do keep doing the work you're doing,
and I'm very excited for your upcoming book.
Speaker 1 (02:19:37):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (02:19:38):
Thank you for being here. I really appreciate you. Thank you,
thank you,
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