The Fuchsia Tent Revolution: Why Workplaces Must Adapt to Menopause

This week, The Dusty Muffins – Dr. Aoife O’Sullivan (MD, MSCP), Dr. Christine Hart Kress (DNP, MSCP), and Dr. Rebbecca Hertel (DO, MSCP) – welcome workplace well-being powerhouse Kacy Fleming, M.A. for a game-changing conversation about menopause and careers. Between crustacean encounters and the inspiring origin story of The Fuchsia Tent, this episode will change how you think about women in the workplace.

You’ll Discover:
🔥 How untreated menopause symptoms silently push talented women out of the workforce
🧠 Why "brain fog" deserves workplace accommodations (and how to ask for them)
🌸 The powerful meaning behind The Fuchsia Tent movement
📈 What forward-thinking companies are doing to support midlife women
‼️ Midlife women are not a problem to be solved - but the solution business didn’t know they needed

About Our Rockstar Guest:As a former Fortune 500 well-being strategist turned menopause workplace advocate, Kacy Fleming is:
✔️ Founder of  The Fuchsia Tent LLC @thefuchsiatent
✔️ TEDx speaker on compassionate workplaces
✔️ On a mission to keep women thriving in their careers
Connect With Us:
✨ The Dusty Muffins: @thedustymuffins
✨ Dr. Aoife: @portlandmenopausedoc
✨ Dr. Rebbecca: @drrebbeccaherteldo
✨ Dr. Christine: @christinehartkress_dnp
🌳 Link Tree: linktr.ee/thedustymuffins

Connect With Our Guest: 
✨ Instagram: @thefuchsiatent, @‌kca_fleming
🌐 Websites: KacyFleming.com, theFuchsiatent.com


Remember: Our hosts and guest are sharing knowledge, not medical advice. For personal care, consult your provider.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-dusty-muffins--6539849/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Dusty Muffins, where menopause meets sisterhood and strength.
We're three menopause specialists coming together to laugh, share, and
empower you through the wild ride of menopause, impaerimenopause. Whether
you're curious, confused, or just looking for real talk, you're
in the right place. We're here to answer your burning questions, educate,
and advocate all with a dash of humor and a

(00:26):
lot of heart. So pull up a chair and join
the conversation. Before we dive in, Please remember, while we're doctors,
we're not your doctors. This podcast is for educational purposes
only and is not a substitute for medical advice. We
encourage you to partner with your own medical clinician to
address your unique health needs. This is the Dusty Muffins.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
I am a doctor a re Recca Hurdle.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
I'm a Board certified ostroopathic family medicine physician and a
Menopause Society certified practitioner. I have a private telemedicine practice
and I see patients in several different states.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
I am doctor e For O'Sullivan, a Board certified family
physician and Menopause Society certified practitioner, and I see patients
through my telemedicine practice here in Oregon and Washington.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
I'm doctor Christine Harkress, a Board certified Women's health nurse
practitioner and Menopause certified practitioner, and I see patients via
telemedicine in several states as well.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
Casey Fleming MA is a workplace well being strategist, ted
X speaker, and founder of the Fuchia Tent, LLC, a
platform dedicated to helping midlife women and organizations thrive together.
With over twenty years in the biopharmaceutical industry, she has
led initiatives on employee well being and mental health, future

(01:44):
workplace design, and compassionate dialogue and leadership. As head of
Global Wellbeing at a Fortune five hundred biopharmaceutical company, Casey
designed strategies that improved employee engagement and retention, earning her
multiple industry awards. She's an organizational psychologist known for her

(02:04):
thesis on the impact of flexible work on well being. Now,
through the Fuchia Tent, she is redefining how organizations support
midlife women in the workplace. A frequent keynote speaker, an
advisor to C suite executives, human resource and total rewards
leaders and health tech startups. Casey's insights on future of

(02:27):
work trends, leadership, and well being have been featured in
top business and well being publications. Her website is Caseyfleming
dot com and the Fusha Tent dot com. Instagram is
KCA Underscore Fleming and at the Fusia Tent.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
All right, and do you want me to start this off?
I can start this off for sure. So well, we've
got Casey Fleming here with us. Thank you so much
for joining us today on a Sunday evening. I don't
know where you are, but it's gloomy here. So I'm
trying to brighten up everything. And we are going to

(03:10):
talk about Menopausita workplace. But before all that happened, we
were just talking about what Casey was doing before she
got on with us, and so we definitely need to
know a little bit about that.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Casey has crabs and we want lots of them. Write
your crabs, Casey, They're.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
The prehistoric crabs.

Speaker 4 (03:35):
I do. Yes. I know this sounds so scandalous, and
really it's not all that scandalous. So I live in Salem, Massachusetts,
which most people think of as home of the Witch,
but it is also home of Boston Beach. People don't
think of Salem and Beach. They think of Salem and Witch,
and it's both. And so right at the end of

(03:55):
my street we have this great little like hoaby that's
for the neighborhood. And my husband I were walking the
dogs and we saw horseshoe crabs mating, but not like two.

Speaker 5 (04:09):
Of them, like throngs of them.

Speaker 4 (04:13):
And apparently this happens a couple of times a year.
So yeah, in the hood we have crabs. Personally, I
do not have crabs, and there are no crabs in
the house.

Speaker 5 (04:23):
But there are no crabs got hurt.

Speaker 4 (04:26):
No crabs were hurt in the making of this premature
conversation whatever was happening, But we saw a lot of crabs.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yes, still in their mating.

Speaker 4 (04:37):
It was it was surprising. It was there were threfles there.
I'm not gonna lie. There were all sorts of crabs
trying to displace other crabs. There were crabs being driven
into the sand. It was terrifying. Ed down, I felt
like I was witnessing something that I should be like.
I was like, honey, I feel like we're in law

(04:58):
in order SVU like edition. This is not comfortable for me.
I should be reporting this.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
But don't let them see.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
But you documented, I did evidence.

Speaker 5 (05:11):
I did. I have some video.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
I cannot wait. I cannot.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
So everyone after this go check out Casey's instagram from today.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yes, at least for the crabs. I know.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
Yes, oh man, I love it a little bit.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Now.

Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yes, I am not an amateur biologist of any sort,
a marine biologist. I am just a wildlife enthusiast. But no,
I am a organizational psychologist, a global well being expert,
and the founder of the Fuchia Tent, which is a
workplace and individual woman's metapause platform that's really designed to

(05:57):
provide simplicity, clarity, access and support for all. So while
I do both workplace well being and workplace menopause support,
I have a consumer arm where I take care of
women as well because I needed support when I was
going through it and so many women need support.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
So organizational psychologists always in the workplace? Or how do
you become an organizational psychologist brings menopause into the workplace?
Like where do you come from?

Speaker 5 (06:29):
Not a family or crabs? Not from? Uh?

Speaker 4 (06:33):
Listen, to the interview earlier. If this didn't make it,
that's going to be really.

Speaker 5 (06:36):
Strange for you. I am so okay with that.

Speaker 4 (06:40):
I came from workplace well being, which is a function
that sits in human resources. The goal not being cute
things like yoga and like you know, crystals, though I
love all those things, and yoga is a very beneficial practice.
I don't need to call that cute and make light
of it. But when we talk about well, we really
talk about health equity, workplace equity, We talk about how

(07:05):
people feel.

Speaker 5 (07:08):
And their jobs.

Speaker 4 (07:09):
You've probably heard so much talk about work life balance.
I hate that terminology. I prefer life work alignment because
we live first, we work second, and we never have
fifty to fifty.

Speaker 5 (07:21):
It's always aligned.

Speaker 4 (07:21):
So in kind of doing all of that work, there's
a lot of change management and kind of pieces that
go along with the programs that you're putting into place.
And so the formal process is what they call io
psychology or industrial organizational psychology. And so if you think
about the way that a therapist works with humans right

(07:45):
and diagnoses kind of you know, what may be going
on with that individual or those individuals you know, works
through exercises and helps to kind of restructure things.

Speaker 5 (07:57):
In their lives.

Speaker 4 (07:58):
That's what an organizational psychologist does for businesses.

Speaker 5 (08:01):
You kind of come in and you.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
Do assessment and you see what's really happening within the
organizations and where support is needed. And when it comes
to menopause, I think we can all agree that there
is a lot of support needed, especially for midlife women.
And one of the stats I love to bring up
because so many people have heard it, but I think

(08:25):
it brings a full circle is that Mayo Clinic did
a study and what that study showed was untreated right, So,
unsupported midlife women lead to one point eight billion dollars
in loss productivity due to retention issues, attrition days, miss
things like that. And then when you add in the
healthcare costs, twenty six point six billion dollars and that's

(08:47):
a US number. If we look globally, it's one hundred
and fifty billion annually, And that really sets us up
to be looked at as a problem. And midlife women
are not a problem to be solved. We are the
solution businesses didn't know they needed. And that's what I'm
here to talk about with businesses.

Speaker 5 (09:07):
Oh I love that approach.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yes, so you're really just telling them, hey, you are
this is how you prevent loss by taking care of
your employees that are going through midlife that's right, Yeah,
I mean to support them. You have to make sure
that you know they love their jobs, they don't want
to leave, they want promotions, and here's how to maintain

(09:29):
that and support them so that they continue to do
those things.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
And what does that look like, casey? How does that work?

Speaker 4 (09:35):
Yes? Yeah, I think it's a great question. Right now,
it doesn't look like much. Only about ten percent of
the organizations in this country, sometimes upwards of eighteen percent
you hear, depending on the study, currently have policies to
support midlife women. And there are other instances where, in

(09:57):
a sense, companies may be over indexing right, where they're
really heavily focused on menopausal women, which can create more stigma, right,
because we're dealing with agism and sexism combined. They're deeply
steeped into how we work. You know, we've all been
told is soldier on, suck it up all these things,

(10:19):
which are really just code for suffer and silence. And
when we over index on these data points and midlife
women being a challenge that sets us up for failure.
And so I think what we talk about at the
Fuchia Tent is pretty simple. It's a three H framework.
It's how I try to think about it as simply

(10:41):
as possible. It's really what midlife women if you ask
them in the workplace what they want, what they say,
and that first H is healthcare. So the very best
benefits that you can afford.

Speaker 5 (10:53):
So if you're a big.

Speaker 4 (10:54):
Employer and you have a huge population and a big
budget for well being, get a third party telehealth solution
that does full service reproductive health and has menopause experts
and everything. If you can't afford that, that's great. Still
there are options like the Fisia Tent where there's a
lot of information and education that can be imparted and

(11:17):
learned at a much lower price point.

Speaker 5 (11:19):
And then when we go to that second ah, that's help.

Speaker 4 (11:22):
And So while we don't want to try to treat
people and leaders like they should be menopause experts, which
could be very daunting, especially if your job is in
like finance or data or it and suddenly you're thinking like, oh,
I've got to know this too, we want to ensure
that leaders can have these conversations in a way that's

(11:43):
not terrifying for them. It's supportive, and that they're asking
the individual what support looks like for them. They're not
taking it on themselves and trying to solve like, can you, honestly, ladies,
imagine in the throngs of a hot flash, having.

Speaker 5 (12:00):
A man tell you like, oh, are you going through menopause?

Speaker 4 (12:03):
Let me tell you that menopause is the one day
you'd be like, oh my god, stop talking.

Speaker 5 (12:09):
Right. Yeah, so support but not solve, right.

Speaker 4 (12:15):
And then that third h is something that I know
this group we can all agree on, which is the
importance of HRT access and non hormonal therapy access. That
doesn't mean that you have to take these things. That
doesn't mean that you need to get a prescription or
you're broken. That means, especially for HRT and a lot

(12:36):
of the baso motor symptom drugs, they are pennies on
the dollar, They are generic, they are tested. They are old,
dusty muffins, but they are good dusty muffins, and companies
need to dust them off and use them as solutions.
And when they don't provide access, it's a huge mess.
So the three h's healthcare help and HRT and non

(12:58):
hormonal therapy access.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, and you know, Casey, I would add add to
that age though it doesn't really fit in. But when
we're talking about what employers can offer is access to
weight loss medications, because that's determinatally, oh my gosh, whether
or not have that benefit.

Speaker 5 (13:15):
And you know they've climbed down on that a.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Weight you know, it affects your confidence, You develop other
comorbidities as you age, you add on more and more medications,
with sixty percent of women on at least one medication
between forty and sixty and you know, most on two
to four. And you know, you know, when we're talking
to patients about menopausal hormone therapy, you know it always

(13:42):
not always, but many times the conversation of weight loss
comes in and I send them back to go see it.
And I'm really I'm sending them back to see if
their insurance covers it. But I think maybe what women
don't realize is that's a decision made by your human
resources department.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
Yeah, benefits for total rewards. And it's so important that
you said that. I was actually recording something today about
this to put up on Instagram and I help back today,
I will share it. It's not a shyness, it's just
I think we need to be honest when we're already
dealing with agism and sexism. There's also weight bias, and

(14:22):
that is very well documented in culture. There's a lot
of studies that show that women who weigh less are
more likely to be promoted all of these things, and
this is in what we call implicit bias. Now, I'm
sure there are definitely people who have explicit bias right
which they would say something cruel or be cruel, but

(14:43):
a lot of us have an implicit bias, which you
hear all the time. I take zep bound. I'm very
proud to say that I take it. I've lost seventeen pounds.
I could not lose that weight without it. I did everything,
but you know, stand on my hand and like eat
grapefruit through a straw all day to lose weight.

Speaker 5 (15:04):
And nothing had worked.

Speaker 4 (15:06):
And I've never had that problem, and the medication was
extremely helpful for me. And I think what's so interesting
is I sat in a pedicure chair and the woman
said to me, and I quote, oh.

Speaker 5 (15:18):
You took the easy way out.

Speaker 4 (15:20):
You cheated and I thought to myself, Wow, a.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
Wow, you know nothing about the medication or the problem
or anything anything that deals with lemon or let's talk about.

Speaker 5 (15:34):
That though, because here's the thing.

Speaker 4 (15:37):
The average person, a lot of them that have never
dealt with insolent sensitivity or resistance, believes that they honestly
believe people that have never struggled with weight that it's
just laziness or that you overeat and they don't understand
the hormone cortisol situation that you all talk about every day.

(16:00):
And so that belief system carries on in the workplace,
right like, Oh, she's just let herself go because she's
in a senior position, or oh, you know, I can
tell she's his career. She's just driven and she doesn't
care what she looks like, like, oh, let's put her
out to pasture. And it sucks, ladies, Like, let's be clear,

(16:23):
we should not be talking about this in a workplace
conversation at all, because what we look like has nothing
to do and what we way has nothing to do
with how talented we are or how capable we are.
But that is not reality of bias in the system,
and we all have to work with and through that bias.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
And that's societies too. You know, it's what we see
in Hollywood, it's what we see on TV. It's what
we you know, So it's not even none of that's correct,
but it really, it truly is that is what people
That's what they're seeing every single day right when they're
watching you know, any thing and TikTok and social media

(17:03):
and all of those things as well. And so you know,
we can teach it and educate and we know better
and we're you know, teaching you know, our students and
residents and children and whatnot, but we can only do
so much when every I feel like, you know, everywhere
else we look is working against us, right, agism, you're

(17:25):
getting older, Oh well then we're not worth anything. And
you can't certainly can't be pretty at forty eight years
old or you know, fifty years old or sixty years old,
you know, all of those things. It just it's it's
a it's our society.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
Even in medicine, you know, there's weight bias. Oh yeah,
we see it all the time. And there are so
many doctors to out there who will say, oh, calories
in equals calories out. You know, if you're getting weight
or you're not losing weight, it's because of calories. And
there's such a deep misunderstanding of you know, none of

(18:01):
us really received very good training on that either.

Speaker 5 (18:04):
No.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
No, we should not have to have a specified OBC
medicine board that is healthcare. I mean that should be
part of you know, any family medicine, internal medicine, you
know training.

Speaker 5 (18:21):
Yeah, and the expense is really a challenge.

Speaker 4 (18:23):
I think one of the things that I work with
companies that are willing to go there and that want
full assessment and evaluation of their program is this reimbursement
factor that we're all talking about, making sure these drugs
are covered, making sure they're covered in a.

Speaker 5 (18:38):
Place where people can get access to them.

Speaker 4 (18:40):
I think, you know, I'm not here to debate pharmaceutical
company and a insurance company's background.

Speaker 5 (18:47):
That was my old job and thankfully I don't do
that anymore.

Speaker 4 (18:50):
But what I will say is, you know, when you
have a BMI cut off of thirty for a lot
of these drugs, that that doesn't necessarily cut it right.

Speaker 5 (18:59):
Like I was really feeling my worst and.

Speaker 4 (19:05):
I missed it by you know, two percent on the BMI,
and my doctors like the gravings is you're far from qualifying.
I'm like, that's not great news, that's horrible news. I
feel like garbage. My numbers are still good. I'm not
comfortable in my body. I'm somebody that's for my job
is on TV on.

Speaker 6 (19:24):
Stage talking in front of people, putting clothes on and
I can't fit my pants, Like this is not okay,
And so I just think it's I'm glad you bought
that up, Christine, because yes, it's not just.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
Hormone replacing therapy or these non hormonal therapies related to
basil motor or mental health symptoms. I think it's a
really interesting point and something that I don't think workplaces
consider a lot because we don't even talk.

Speaker 5 (19:52):
About it a lot.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
Are all the symptoms that come with menopause, and the
fact that in Parry, for so many women, self included,
it really started more as a mental health diagnosis where
I went from being you know, this anxious, chronically anxious, overachiever, bubbly, vivacious,

(20:14):
you know person, to complete antonia, like not no joy,
no understanding of what that meant, thinking that I was
broken and wanting to step off my roof, and I
don't say that lightly.

Speaker 5 (20:29):
I say that because the more I've.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
Talked about it, the more women tell me that this
is their reality. And so I know that the numbers
that we're seeing are significantly underestimating just how dysmorph dysmorphizing
or painful. I don't know if I just made up
a word dysmorphic, we become. If I did, it's really

(20:54):
just morphizing. Menopause is where you look in the mirror
one day and you see it's not even visual. It's
not like you look at your face and you're like,
oh my god, it looks so old. It's like what
you're feeling inside and what you're seeing or feeling inside
and feeling outside so different, and you just can't make.

Speaker 5 (21:14):
Sense of it.

Speaker 4 (21:15):
And it it feels like breaking in two. And that
is so troubling for all people, especially people working and
having to put on a brave face and go into
an office every day. Mothers with kids having to like
parent mothers with aging, you know, parents having to parent
them to like it's maddening.

Speaker 5 (21:37):
It's a maddening time.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
And then they go to the doctor. The doctor doesn't
know anything about menopause, darts them on an antidepressant medication,
which can be life saving for a lot of people,
but unfortunately, when going through perimenopause, the answer for most
of them is hormones, not antidepressants, although they do work
very well together. And then what happens more weight game

(21:59):
because presents are not known for their weight loss effects.
That one is. But we just and then we end
up with all this polypharmacy. You're on something for sleep,
you're on something for depression, you're on something for your
cholesterol is going up, your weight's going up, so's your
books pressure, yep. And so we're just sticking band aids

(22:22):
onto trying to stop this fire hose, when really, if
we had the education and the knowledge to help women
before it got to that stage, we could avoid all
of this.

Speaker 5 (22:33):
Yeah, I say, you just you just called my nickname out.

Speaker 4 (22:36):
Polypharmacy is like if I had a special name or
for a name at this stage of my life, it
would be polypharmacy because I have had to take so
many medications to feel better, and you know what, there's
also bias about that.

Speaker 5 (22:52):
And I'm here to.

Speaker 4 (22:53):
Say that we have to do what we have to
do to feel better and suffering and sight violence is
not Okay. So while I totally hear you, if on
your point was not you know, shaming on that. It's
there are so many symptoms to menopause that it is
almost impossible to tackle. And one of the most debilitating

(23:14):
ones for working women people in the workplace is brain fog.
And I don't know about y'allah, but there's a brain fog.
Time of the day before I got on testosterone, and
that was like four pm. Where were my keys probably
in the refrigerator. Why was I in a room?

Speaker 5 (23:34):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (23:35):
And if I've had a meeting, I would lose my
train of thought multiple times. And the first time that
happens for a woman in the workplace, you make a
cute joke if it was important, I'll remember, like, oh.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
I don't come back to me.

Speaker 5 (23:53):
When it happens.

Speaker 4 (23:54):
Three times in a meeting, and then it happens at
the next meeting, you start to doubt your confidence or
your ability to do something that has been your.

Speaker 5 (24:05):
Whole life's work.

Speaker 4 (24:07):
And maybe you're the breadwinner and now suddenly your ability
to provide for your family is called into question.

Speaker 5 (24:14):
What are you supposed to do? Say to your leader?

Speaker 4 (24:17):
You know what, give me that promotion anyway, I can't
remember anything if it's like three pm, but like you know,
promote me.

Speaker 5 (24:24):
It's debilitating.

Speaker 4 (24:25):
And so that is why we need to have support
in the form of the three ages, which include weight
US therapy, so that women can get what they need
and don't feel like they have to call themselves out
on a continual basis. Otherwise we're going to keep seeing
midlife women who are their most entrepreneurial, innovative, brilliant self

(24:47):
leaving the workplace.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
And I think too, you know when you talk about leaders,
you know, when you're not sleeping through the night and
your anxiety is you know, going through the roof, you're
not as resilient, you're not as good as a leader.
And you know, we talked earlier about you know, screening
early for symptoms, so you know, women you know, can

(25:13):
understand that you know they are perimenopausal, their menopausal and
really understand how does that impact the people around you.
I know when I was a leader, when I look
back on it, and I didn't realize that I had
those symptoms. I was not patient, I was not flexible.
I would you know, I would send out emails or

(25:36):
you know, I believed every email, every day. But I
would have a thought and I was so afraid I
would lose the thought. I would text message someone or
I would email message someone and not even think about it.
Well it's seven oh five, and I'm like looking back
on it, and I'm like, well, no wonder. They were like,
she's always working. Yes, I'm always working. That is true.

(25:57):
And I didn't expect them to respond to me, but
the anxiety that they were feeling about the fact that
I was feeling the need to get that out, but
I was feeling needed to get it out because I
was Rada was going to lose it. And so you know,
I think you know that that female leaders often can
alienate their workforce, you know, because they're not aware of

(26:21):
their actions which are a results of some of their
menopausal symptoms, and the impact the people that they.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
Work that work for them.

Speaker 4 (26:29):
Well, I think the important part of that, aside from
great self awareness on your part.

Speaker 5 (26:33):
So kudo's a lot of refrection.

Speaker 7 (26:35):
I'm like, shit, even if it's even if it's sick, yeah,
but even if it's too late, you realize, right, I mean, look,
we're human, and there was no information when we were
going through it, and so no one was talking about it,
So there was no we weren't having this conversation.

Speaker 4 (26:51):
There was. It's not like you were not listening for it,
it's it didn't exist, really and so right, and so
at the same time, I'm gonna I'm going to reframe
that in the way that I look at this a
little bit.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
And the coologist she did this to me, the other.

Speaker 4 (27:07):
This she did, I can't I can't help but reframe that. Like,
there's a couple of things to say, right. Number one,
if you had had support, like we've been talking about
in the beginning of this conversation, you would have had

(27:27):
the awareness that this is going on. And if you
had appropriate support it say, someone who did kind of
organizational design in there talking, one of the things that
you would know to do is to track when you're
your best right and track when you're your worst, and
try to work flexibly around that. That doesn't mean that

(27:48):
every organization is going to offer flexible work and kind
of where you work and whatever. But if you know
that there are specific times in your day your energy
has changed, and we were working together, we would map
your energy so that you having your meetings with people
at very specific times in order to ensure you were
at your best for them and they were not seeing

(28:09):
you when you were not in your best. We also
would say things like, hey, listen, I'm going through something
right now where I can't necessarily remember everything all the time,
and so sometimes.

Speaker 5 (28:25):
I'm going to send you an email or a text
and it may come at a weird time.

Speaker 4 (28:30):
Ignore it, look at it the next day, like, don't
think of my behavior as something I want you to emulate.
Just know that I'm doing it because I can't remember,
not because I expect you to respond.

Speaker 5 (28:46):
No, that's not perfect.

Speaker 4 (28:47):
Right, in a perfect world, we don't pain people in
the evenings or on weekends. But it's not a perfect world.
That's why I don't talk about work life balance because
it's a bunch of crap. I talk about life work
alignment because it's realistic and we all have different circumstances
we're working in. So I think it's just those simple
things that reframed that.

Speaker 5 (29:08):
And then the.

Speaker 4 (29:09):
Individual working for you would be like, oh, yeah, my
boss can't remember anything. She's awesome though, and she tells
me not to reply to her until my next working day, right,
And then it's not anxiety provoking.

Speaker 5 (29:20):
So you know, I struggle.

Speaker 4 (29:23):
I struggle because then that's women still blaming themselves for
how we behave. I'm not advocating for being abusive or
you know, being irritable and snapping at colleagues, but there's
always something you could do to kind of walk those
behaviors back or not perfect.

Speaker 5 (29:39):
And so you can also.

Speaker 4 (29:40):
Say like, hey, listen, I was really sure yesterday for
a variety of reasons. I haven't been sleeping well and
sometimes I'm a little ill tempered, like the sea bass
and Austin Powers right, and it's not you, it's me, right,
I'm ill tempered, And I apologize if that came out
at you.

Speaker 5 (29:59):
I'm really working on it. And nobody's going to be
like what right?

Speaker 1 (30:04):
And a college goes a really long way. I mean,
I you know, because I feel like I struggled with
brain fog like all day. It wasn't a time thing
for me at all, and it was really scary, and
it was really just really scary, and you know, to
the point where I was I'm sure like a lot
of women, you know, you're like, do you have a
brain tumor? Is something going on? I need medication? Like

(30:28):
I cannot get through a patient chart without reading it
three or four times, like three or four times, and
I'm just like, what is wrong with you? Woman? And
so those Apollo and I told you know, all of
my staff that were just so lovely. I need you
guys have to just double check my work when I
am doing result notes or when I'm doing you know,

(30:50):
phone call notes, or if I'm ordering something and it
doesn't make sense place in the back and be like,
is this what you meant?

Speaker 3 (30:57):
And I'm going to be like, no, oh.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
Good, catch things, you know, and I think, A, we're human,
b we you know, I am in a hybrid model,
and so I still work an insurance based model and
have my own private practice, and so you know, in
that insurance space you are going through, you know how
many result notes in a day, right and so, and
how many patients panel and so when you're first struggling

(31:23):
to be organized, I mean I'm an organized person. And
when I first started going through perimenopause, there was just
no organization at all. So I wasn't knowing where I
was starting, stopping, where to finish anything, if I could
finish anything, and let alone not comprehend what I was reading,
but an apology goes a long way. I feel like,
you know, just saying you know what, shoot, I'm sorry.

(31:44):
I didn't mean to lose it. I know, I've just
been batty a little bit, you know, and or you know,
and then buy them some coffee and some lunch.

Speaker 5 (31:55):
Free food always is great, Yeah, I really.

Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yeah, it's not long when you know, and even just
thinking for you know, your staff, for just keeping you
flowing and working. And I can't do my job without them,
so it's so important, you know, just sometimes just that right,

(32:20):
thinking them with just some lunch or whatever, and so
on more stressful weeks, then it might be lunch and
Starbucks in addition to that, just like, thank you for
dealing with this crazy woman in this office struggling with
mood swings, low energy, weight changes, are feeling dismissed about
your hormones. You're not crazy, You're in midlife. I'm doctor
Rebecca Hurdle, Board certified osteopathic physician and certified menopause practitioner

(32:42):
and not astopathic midlife health. I offer personalized concierge tele
medicine for women in multiple states, helping you navigate perimenopause
and menopause with expert care focused on hormones, wait, sleep,
libido and more. My approach blooms eminent based medicine with
a deep understanding of longevity and precision midlife health because
space isn't just about getting by, it's about thriving for
decades to come. So visit www dot astropathicmandlife health dot

(33:06):
com and let's build your roadmap to lasting vitality.

Speaker 5 (33:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
I think that goes for everybody, and especially in midlife.
You know, we're usually the peak of our careers. That
often means that we're managing big teams. This is a
great opportunity for a couple things. Delegation we as women
tend to I'm going to speak for myself, I can't
speak for all of us, but we love to take

(33:31):
on more than we need to, so hard to always
we've always had to write, and when we don't delegate
in midlife, we pay more dearly than we pay at
any other time because we just have so.

Speaker 5 (33:44):
Many things going on.

Speaker 4 (33:46):
And it's also an opportunity for businesses to create that
mentorship perspective.

Speaker 5 (33:54):
Now, I know you're probably thinking, if you've been listening
to the rest.

Speaker 4 (33:56):
Of is why would I want some snarky, forgetful well
whatever women mentoring anybody, And here's the reality we've all
I'm sure read The Menopause Brain by doctor Lisa Mosconi.
We know that brain fog is temporary for most people.
We know that once we get care and support, which

(34:17):
is why the three ages are so important, this can
be the best chapter of our lives. That's why we're
here on the Dusty Muffins having this conversation because we're
all having this great moment in our lives. And I
think it's really important for the workplace to understand and
for leaders to understand. I'm not here saying support, you know,

(34:40):
people who should go to the pasture like everybody thinks
about us and just let us act however we act
and whatever.

Speaker 5 (34:49):
Like No, what I'm.

Speaker 4 (34:50):
Saying is if you support midlife women period. That doesn't
mean perfect support.

Speaker 5 (34:56):
It means if you.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
Even did anything, you're increasing job satisfaction, You're increasing loyalty,
you're reducing attrition, you're reducing absenteeism. For every one dollar
you spend on workplace menopause support, it returns three to
four dollars on healthcare costs. I cannot think of another
metric in well being or benefits that has that ROI.

(35:20):
And then on top of that, we know from Lisa Mosconi,
thank God that we become more innovative, more resilient, better
problem solvers, better leaders, better complex thinkers. So when you're
supporting midlife women at work, you are investing in your
future employees and your future mentors and your future leaders.

(35:46):
Because I hear a lot of men talking about retirement
these days, and I don't hear a midlife woman anywhere
I know talking about checking out of her work parameter.
This is when we are here to shine. We want
to work. We're brilliant, we're smart, and we're badasses, and
we should have the support we need to do the

(36:07):
work that we were meant to do in this world.
And I'm going to get off my soapbox now.

Speaker 5 (36:12):
Sorry, thank you, ladies.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
We just dropped a few mics, even for ourselves. If we,
the three of us, hadn't realized what was going on
with us, may have left the workforce, you know, totally.

Speaker 4 (36:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
I don't think you could have done it right. I
don't think that we done it. Yeah, Christine did.

Speaker 4 (36:31):
To Christine, you and I talked about this I was like,
this is not my dream anymore, Like I don't know
what's happening.

Speaker 5 (36:37):
But that is where I went.

Speaker 4 (36:40):
Too, and that is where data show was that most
of us are a lot of us are going ten
percent leave. I think that number is underestimated. Thirty three
to forty three percent consider it. I think that number
is also underestimated. This is the time when if we
don't get what we need, we're going to create something

(37:02):
new for ourselves. And those businesses that don't give us
what we need are losing our brilliance and our entrepreneurialism.

Speaker 5 (37:09):
We're going to take it elsewhere.

Speaker 3 (37:10):
I know. If you want something done, ask a woman
in midlife to do it for you. It's going to
get done.

Speaker 5 (37:16):
Properly and quickly.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, we do.

Speaker 3 (37:22):
So to lose us from the workforce is a complete disaster.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
It is.

Speaker 4 (37:27):
It is. And here's an interesting piece. So many people
talk about AI everywhere you go. Everyone, let's talk about AI. AI,
this AI that if we think about I don't know
if you all are big users of AI. I am
a huge user of A. I love it and I've
had it's help and huh, it.

Speaker 5 (37:46):
Is so helpful.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
But it's really helpful time. But here's time all that
time management.

Speaker 4 (37:51):
Yeah, but when you're using AI in complex work, you
have to have reviewers who understand and all the aspects
of that work before AI existed. You cannot take junior
people who have no experience with transversal cooperation, who have

(38:12):
some corporate speak that's in my brain. I even know
what that word means, transversal cooperation. But you get my point.

Speaker 5 (38:17):
Like working across.

Speaker 4 (38:18):
Functions, you have all of these different jobs roles that
we've all had. We understand how to communicate, which a
lot of the younger generations aren't going to have the
same skill sets just because we're learning it in a
different way. And we are the reviewers of the product
of AI in complex work tasks. And so if businesses

(38:43):
think AI is going to replace the genius of medlife
women or medlife employees, they're sorely mistaken. AI is going
to replace the tasks that are more junior. But understanding
and reviewing is something that workers with more wisdom and
experience are going to have to do, and it's just
another reason to keep us around.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
So how do you think women can best go about
advocating for this gap in the workplace because we all
know it exists almost everywhere d.

Speaker 4 (39:15):
Percent and even in companies where there is support, I
get calls from women's groups who want me to come
in and talk about this and what they can do.

Speaker 5 (39:26):
So it's a great question, you know, optimization.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
I'm going to give you some tactical stuff and some
much less tactical stuff, but we'll start with the tactical
optimization of environment. This is something that every employee can do,
save employees that were a uniform that falls on the system,
and there needs to be structural change where women in
midlife are wearing polyester uniforms. I understand that in some

(39:53):
cases midlife women are in clean rooms and things like that,
and there's not a lot you can do because of
has matt or safety or other environments. But there's so
many jobs like I always think of flight attendants wearing
those polyester uniforms and those sweaters at you know, thirty
thousand feet having a hot flash like come on.

Speaker 5 (40:16):
So that is something workplace can do.

Speaker 4 (40:18):
But what women can do is ask for fans at
the desk, and most companies will reimburse them USB portable fans.
They're very inexpensive on Amazon things like cooling towels, wearing
a cardigan, making best friends with your facilities manager in
an office.

Speaker 5 (40:35):
They are lovely people and if you ask them to
turn down the temperature.

Speaker 4 (40:38):
I've never met a facilities manager that I haven't befriended
that hasn't either turned it down or up for me.
So love your facilities managers that that is a hot take,
and then we'll get a little more out of the tactical, right.
It comes down to compassionate dialogue, and that works in
both ways. These are not easy come to have. And

(41:01):
you heard some examples earlier of kind of how I
talk about menopause in the workplace where I'm not naming
my symptoms necessarily because some women will name them and
be like, oh my god, I'm having a hot flash, right,
But some women are not comfortable with that, and that's okay.
Some women don't want to talk about there and samya
or their brain fog because they're afraid it'll make them
look not confident. So it's okay to say, like, for

(41:23):
a variety of reasons, I haven't been remembering things as
well as I used to, and there's nothing wrong with
me medically, but you know it would really help if
I could do.

Speaker 5 (41:33):
X, Y and Z.

Speaker 4 (41:34):
So it's it's those dialogues and how we go about
that is prepare. This is not going to be an
easy conversation for you. I don't care how comfortable you
are when you get in front of somebody that is
not one of your girlfriends. And this has to do
with your livelihood. It is uncomfortable. Practice practice, practice, practice

(41:56):
with your friend, practice with your doctor, practice with your
family member.

Speaker 5 (41:59):
Practice.

Speaker 4 (42:00):
This is what you want to say, and when you're
developing that, look at what is your solution? Right. We
would love to expect leaders to know what the company offers.
They usually don't if the company offers anything at all.
So if the company does offer things, it's good to
research kind of your benefits and.

Speaker 5 (42:19):
Your policy before you have that dialogue, so you know
what you might want.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
It's also good to think about what is going to
help you perform better. So, Rebecca, you gave a great example,
which was having people kind of check your notes. That
was a very vulnerable example. People might not be comfortable
saying something like that. Good on you that you did,
especially in Medicindicus. How important is it to make sure
you get your documentation correct for patients, but asking for

(42:46):
what you need, like, hey, you know what would be
really great. I'm not sleeping well for a variety of reasons,
but I perform much better when I can get up
at seven thirty these days because it just gives me
that little bit more time to sleep. Are you okay
if I start coming in and starting my day at nine,
I'll work till seven pm. You know, asking for what
you need for that's going to help you be more successful. Like, hey,

(43:07):
I find that I'm getting great work done at six
and seven pm all of a sudden.

Speaker 5 (43:10):
That was never my time before.

Speaker 4 (43:12):
But you may get emails for me a little later,
just ignore them. That's my schedule and that's how I work.
Or put a little tag in your signature line that
says my hours are not your hours. Right, we've all
seen those. That is that compassionate dialogue. Now on the
flip side, we want leaders to model the same thing
and to ask people, you know, what do support for

(43:34):
me look like? For you to not assume and be like, hey,
I think you're like forty five and you look like
you're sweating. Are you having a hot flash?

Speaker 1 (43:40):
Like don't go there, Like like how do you make
sure they're not Yeah, they're not feeling you know, singled
out and real least, right, we don't want that either,
So it's like it's you're treading carefully. You want to
support without singling out and making them feel vulnerable, more
vulnerable than they already do. Right, Want the Dusty Muffins

(44:03):
at your next event. We do panels, live, podcast and
talks that bring the heat literally, corporate see me or retreats.
We've got you, So hit us up at the Dusty
Muffins three three three at gmail dot com or dms
on Instagram at the Dusty Muffins. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (44:17):
And then on the far end of advocacy, we get
into kind of policy driving policy, working in erg's and
affinity groups to get rid of stigma. Right think, I
think something while while I'm not a proponent of everybody
talk about menopause that's going to fix everything, right, Like,
I don't believe that for one second, And I don't

(44:39):
believe everybody wants to talk about it, and I don't
believe all women want to talk about it, and that
doesn't just mean working women. I think it's great that
we understand it and we're educated about it, and we
have information about it. Everybody should have education about it.
Whether or not you talk about it, that's a choice.
But in affinity groups and employee resource groups, that is
an incredible opportu tunity for women to have community in

(45:02):
their workplace, to make friends with somebody who's going through
it with you so you feel less alone. That's one
of the places we really like to lean in with
a fuchul ten is like an external erg for companies
that don't have them to create a support network for
women so they can kind of talk about it in
a non threatening way or get information and share information.

(45:22):
But that's really kind of the three steps, if you will.
There's that really tactical approach of you know, feeling better
from a vasomotor symptom perspective or a time of work
perspective to the conversation piece than to the policy and
development piece.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
You've mentioned a couple of times this fuchia tent.

Speaker 5 (45:45):
Yeah, yes, what is it?

Speaker 7 (45:51):
Tug right, tint?

Speaker 5 (45:54):
No, thank you for asking.

Speaker 4 (45:56):
The fuchia tent was a fever dream of a very
unhappy perimenopausal Casey don't like talking about some myself and
the third person makes me feel insane. But I really
needed a place to get away from my partner, to
get away from work, to get away from all of

(46:19):
the things that were making me irritable, the things that
made me feel not seen or othered.

Speaker 5 (46:27):
And so I had.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
Talked to my aunt, who is like a sister to me,
and she said, you need you need a red tent.
You've read the book, you need a red tent. And
I was like, no, I need a future tent. And
that's where we started.

Speaker 5 (46:39):
But what we are is an education.

Speaker 4 (46:43):
And community platform for midlife women and workplaces designed kind
of soup to not so there's free resources, there's support
for anybody. We have a host you've seen them of
PDFs and things that are available for doctors to use
with their patients, for people to use before they go
see their doctors or nurse practitioners or pas. We have

(47:06):
a whole host.

Speaker 5 (47:08):
Of also.

Speaker 4 (47:12):
The best I believe supplements, FDA approved medications, and telehealth
providers in something called the fucial List, which is also
free for people so that they have a third party
curated list.

Speaker 5 (47:26):
That they can look at for different resources.

Speaker 4 (47:29):
And then we have the community, which is kind of
next level where you get group coaching, you have experts,
hopefully all of the dustymuffens. Well, I'm not going to
say hopefully you're all coming in at some point to
talk about whatever you want to talk about and what
you do brilliantly.

Speaker 5 (47:47):
But that's really community.

Speaker 4 (47:48):
Where people can come to talk or they can come
to just learn. And then I have all of that
workplace component, which is the three h's how we put
that together for organizations, and my main stay is doing
educational webinars. I do a ton of THEMBER companies where
I come in and I talk about menopause in the
workplace from the business case for CEOs and executives.

Speaker 5 (48:11):
To what is menopause? You know? Why am I going
through this? And what do I do about it?

Speaker 4 (48:16):
Of course I keep it out of the deep dive
into clinical, I kind of surface clinical unless I'm bringing
a practitioner with me. But there's so many people that
know nothing that I feel like sometimes even saying that
menopause is the one day after three hundred and sixty
five days with no period is eye opening for people.
So we try to educate and do what we can.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
That's all. And so how if companies want to work
with you how's the best way for them to connect.

Speaker 4 (48:50):
Yeah, so two websites, so you can go to Caseyfleming
dot com that's my kind of workplace while being consultancy,
or the Fuchia Tent dot com. And as Christine knows,
I'm gonna be a bit profane with the spelling because
people struggle with spelling.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Fushia.

Speaker 4 (49:08):
Think of the naughty word and take out the K
and replace it with an H and then s I
A so f u c H s I A so.

Speaker 5 (49:17):
Thanks uh tent V in front of that. So the
Fuchia tent dot com. It is a complex spelling.

Speaker 4 (49:26):
And at the future tent on Instagram, at k c
A the three initials underscore Fleming on Instagram and LinkedIn
k cy Fleming m A. And you can contact me
any of those ways, all of those ways. I'd love
to hear from you. And no, I did not just
say that bad word. I spelled tusha the way that
it's spelled.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
So we say that if you were We say it
all the time, so you totally.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
Do not worry workplaces. I will not sell it for
you that way. When I come into.

Speaker 5 (49:56):
Your building, I'm I'm may, but I won't say that way.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Where are you in the country.

Speaker 4 (50:06):
I'm in Salem, Massachusetts with my bay and my horseshoe crabs. Yeah,
keep full circle.

Speaker 3 (50:18):
Rainfall.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
That's I was like, we did talk about that, Witches.
It was Salem Witches.

Speaker 5 (50:26):
Salem. Salem is an amazing place.

Speaker 4 (50:29):
I don't know if you all have been, but you're
always welcome in my house. It is a lovely place.
I can always use three amazing witches to add to
my cousin.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
We're definitely in.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
Our girls are all a little bit different, so we would
like make a good flock.

Speaker 5 (50:49):
We could be like armed yeah, yeah, three, just like
four hour four four change a little, get.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
Our Book of Shadows going. I just watched that with
my girls. We watched all the seasons of it, and
we absolutely loved it, and then we moved on to
Gossip Girl after that.

Speaker 4 (51:08):
Little secret for you. I was in Charmed. I was well,
I was an actress. I was a waitress in the
bar P three, and so there's plenty of scenes with me.

Speaker 5 (51:20):
Like I don't didn't talk.

Speaker 4 (51:22):
I wasn't like an extra, like a featured extra. So
I would work in there frequently with my little tray,
and you know, do my thing.

Speaker 5 (51:27):
That's my girl's over.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
They are going to crash out when I tell them that. Well,
I mean, you know, that's very Coolcasy, tell us about
your background. What did you do before you started all
this menopausa markets work and you were an actress?

Speaker 5 (51:45):
Tell us it's more what I didn't. I mean, I'm
a really odd duck. But it all makes sense, like
it all makes sense to how I got here. But no,
I started as an actress. Didn't like the.

Speaker 4 (51:57):
Lateral, but the inability for kind of lateral, Like the
better you got didn't mean the more work you got.

Speaker 5 (52:02):
And I did not enjoy that.

Speaker 4 (52:04):
I'm a very gold driven human and that was very
frustrating to get better at something and not g at work.
And so then I moved to fashion and I got
a degree in.

Speaker 5 (52:14):
Fashion merchandising and buying.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
And all I do is buy earrings and clothing and
frocks for my house. And I went to culinary school. Frocks,
clothing and dressing my house, you know, all the things.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
I love it.

Speaker 5 (52:28):
And then I went to culinary school and I dropped
out of that. I've been to school for business, I've
been to school.

Speaker 4 (52:36):
What else I've been to school for organizational psychology and
managed to get through for fashion business and organizational psychology
and some marketing, some pretty much everything.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
When I meet people like you who've done so many things,
you are the best to talk to, like to just
go to the bar, get a drink and sit and
talk for just listen. I would want to know every
single thing, but acting white like I would love it. Yeah,
I can't wait for us to get together or something

(53:07):
and have a proper chat we did.

Speaker 4 (53:10):
I never realized how weird I was. No, I'm good
with that now. I thought everybody was weird like me.
And then I started to realize as I aged that
like most people didn't go to school for seven things,
and like you know, I have a bunch of.

Speaker 5 (53:27):
The different careers and whatever.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
So you need to meet Rachel Frankenthal. Think of that
who did go to school for seven different things and
was a Broadway actress. I love that the spirit out there.

Speaker 5 (53:41):
I love that she succeeded where I failed.

Speaker 4 (53:47):
Came to me.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
And she also everything she did led her to this point.

Speaker 5 (53:54):
You knowally mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
That crazy.

Speaker 4 (53:56):
I think it's I do think and I know we've
closed the podcast for the most part, but I do
think it's a really important thing to note about midlife
women is we have done all of these things, whether
it was a straight path for someone where they knew
what they wanted to be their whole lives, but you're

(54:18):
literally at the peak of whatever that was.

Speaker 5 (54:21):
You are at mastery by the time you're in midlife.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
And if you're an odd duck like me and you've
done twenty things, that kind of ladders up.

Speaker 5 (54:30):
To what you have to offer the world.

Speaker 4 (54:33):
And that is such a gift and it really is
what makes midlife women so unbelievably special. And it's why
I cannot stand to see women, you know, taking themselves
out when we should be anteing up. And that is

(54:57):
not to say that if you desire a retirement properly
because you're sane and not like me, or you know,
you want to spend time with your grandkids, that that's
not a positive choice too. But I want women to
have that choice. I want them to think I want
to be in my career at the peak of it

(55:17):
for the next twenty years when they're hitting fifty, or
to think I'm done with this, but I'm good with
that because I'm ready to be grandma, or I'm ready
to start another business, or I want the next best
chapter Christine, not where you and I were, where we were, Like,
what's happening? I can't take this anymore. I think I
want to go over here, but I'm not one hundred

(55:39):
percent sure I'm going to pull the rip chord and
plunge into the unknown. Yes, it turned out fantastically for
both of us because we made it work, because midlife
women make it work. But I'd rather people be able
to kind of think through that before having to just
like do that, you know, I agree?

Speaker 3 (56:00):
Yeah, and losing women with so much wisdom and so
much experience is just a massive blow for any business
or corporation. Or Yeah, it's it's sad and unnecessary because
we can avoid all of it.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Yeah, well this has been amazing.

Speaker 5 (56:23):
Yeah, you talked for hours.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
So glad to have you sold in Miami.

Speaker 4 (56:28):
And oh my gosh, that was one of the greatest
moments of my menopause life.

Speaker 5 (56:36):
Called menopause life? Can that be a TV show with
starring and Jared Lado?

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (56:43):
Ed, if you know Jared Lado, you're definitely a parent menopause.
At least I think what was so great about that moment, ladies,
is there are lots of different people in the metaverse,
lots of differ kinds of people. There's lots of different

(57:04):
ways that it's talked about, and they're all they're all good.
I'm not going to say anything nasty about a human being.

Speaker 5 (57:10):
It's not my thing.

Speaker 4 (57:11):
But I've always been a little more brazen, a little
more outspoken, a little more.

Speaker 5 (57:21):
Pursy and jokey and you know body.

Speaker 4 (57:25):
And when I met the three of you, I was like,
oh my god, where have these people been? And people
who knew that there were dusty muffins and that I
was actually one, and how comes they didn't know about me?

Speaker 5 (57:39):
And oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (57:40):
Right, but it was a moment, right, I think, I
hope you guys have the same Oh.

Speaker 5 (57:45):
We were just there, but how do we not know? Yeah,
it was awesome.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
Like in our world.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
Yeah, I find that what you're easy to fit them
with and and honestly, I find the best people in
my life. I'm in midlife and I meet in this
way where it's like, I guess.

Speaker 5 (58:05):
When you're younger, you don't know.

Speaker 4 (58:07):
I really I wasted a lot of time not being
a girls girl when I was younger, and I regret
that I write about it periodically to kind of buy
or beware young women who think they're guys gals about
the mistake there, you know, trying to be the cool
girl or whatever. But in midlife, it's like I'm a

(58:29):
heat seeking missile for great people.

Speaker 5 (58:31):
Like I just.

Speaker 4 (58:33):
Literally know how to find my people, and when I
see them, I'm not shy about it anymore.

Speaker 5 (58:41):
I'm not like, oh, I hope they like me.

Speaker 4 (58:43):
I'm like, no, I'm here, Like I'm like the worst
cold that you can't get rid of, like get ready,
get ready, you're gonna need.

Speaker 5 (58:50):
Valtrex for me to go away? Right, Probably nothing.

Speaker 4 (58:57):
Against her, Like I'm just saying, I there's no cure
for me, right, I'm just here. Love it.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
You're not looking for a cure, No, not at all,
I hope not. I know. I have friends who like
kind of collect other friends like they're they just it's
very important to them as have as many friends as possible,
and they're I'm not even sure they're friends, maybe acquaintances.
And I'm looking at it going that seems exhausting. No,

(59:27):
I just think my few people and then I'm happy,
you know, in.

Speaker 5 (59:32):
The same way.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
But I but I it takes me a while to realize,
like the people all know immediately are my people, like
you guys.

Speaker 5 (59:40):
And then there are people.

Speaker 4 (59:41):
That I'll kind of think are my people, and I'll
find out that they're really just business acquaintances or transactional
people that are not my people.

Speaker 5 (59:47):
And that's painful. That's been that's been painful.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
Lesson we're not authentic and yes, only one only the
only association they want is how can they get to
the next place?

Speaker 4 (01:00:01):
But they're sneaky, they're sneaky you. So I talked about
this with Christopher ma Piergui and he's like, I want
you to write a series on this. I'm like, this
doesn't really go with what I talk about, but I'll
talk about it here at the Dusty Muffins. There is
such a creature as a covert narcissist. And so while
narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder is a very small percentage

(01:00:24):
of the populace, so true narcissism.

Speaker 5 (01:00:26):
Right, that really charming.

Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
Pathologic like people with the you know, with that with
that diagnosed pathology. That's a small percentage. But there are
people known as covert narcissists who are energy vampires and
they have.

Speaker 5 (01:00:46):
A vulnerability and they prey upon people with light and
then they stomp on it.

Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
They stop on it really well, and and it's interesting.
There is a lot of research on what they call vulnerable.

Speaker 5 (01:01:04):
Narcissism or covert narcissism. I know many of them, and
you can find them in the workplace. You can find
them anywhere.

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
But I mean the workplace is filled with, like anything else,
unhealed humans, right, I mean the world is filled with
unhealed humans. And that is especially that is a structural
issue in workplaces and all seriousness, and that's that is
this is staggering. But I recently did research for a

(01:01:31):
company looking to build a top tier leadership development program
and I'm helping them build it. And I remember when
I was going through leadership development programs, they used to
do psychological personality assessments for anybody who was going to
become a leader.

Speaker 5 (01:01:48):
And so I wanted to check.

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
For this organization to see if that was still an
okay practice or that was something that was no longer allowed,
or you know, there were people and they do it,
but they only do it, most of them in the
c suite, and I'm like, so, let me, let me
get this shit straight. Let me get this straight.

Speaker 5 (01:02:05):
You inflict at these people on.

Speaker 4 (01:02:07):
Other people up into the c suite where they're responsible
for sometimes hundreds of thousands of people, and then you
give them the personality test, not the c suite on
who gets into the c suite narcissists. Oh yeah, yes,
it is insane, and it's because we don't test.

Speaker 5 (01:02:32):
And honestly, we know, like we can this. It's not funny.

Speaker 4 (01:02:36):
We know that sixty six percent of people say their
leader has more impact on their mental health than their
providers or their spouse, right. We also know that two
thirds of people would take less pay for a better
leader who treated.

Speaker 5 (01:02:55):
Them empathetically or compassionately.

Speaker 4 (01:02:58):
It's why I love doing my but it also is
something that in senses me because we're stuck in this
position where a lot.

Speaker 5 (01:03:07):
Of our leaders haven't even been through leadership training.

Speaker 4 (01:03:09):
Like aside from like the testing that they should have,
they've never been trained. They're just like here you are,
now you get to deal with menopause, mental health. You
don't care about people. You're just taking it because it's
more pay. And it's like, oh oh, my goodness. It's
it's really why we're in this position.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
When you ask people why they leave their jobs, invariably
they'll say their boss was, oh, totally supervisor, or their
boss has made their life so unlivable that they are
leaving their job. That's the answer you here over and
over again.

Speaker 4 (01:03:45):
Yeah, when I when I work, when I do conferences
that are workplace conferences specifically, and I'm talking about life
work alignment, or I'm talking about well being, which is
very often, I'll ask, raise your hand if you've worked
for a time toxic leader, and every hand in the
room goes up every time I ask the question, and

(01:04:07):
then everyone chuckles. And these are all well being people,
so most of them, because I'm usually speaking in rooms
of like benefits or whatever. But you know, some of
the people that are laughing are also toxic leaders, right Like, statistically,
we've all had those behaviors. And Christine, you own some
of yours that you're not a toxic leader, but there
were things that menopause brought out in you that we're

(01:04:28):
challenging for other people. We all can be those people.
It's not like it's just right covert narcissists are actual narcissists,
Like we all have the tendency of bringing our baggage
or our worst selves to work, and being a leader
is really recognizing that and as soon as we figure

(01:04:49):
it out, deciding whether or not we really want to
leave people and deal with these things, or if we'd
be better off being an individual contributor where we're just
doing work but not respec reponsible for other people's lives. Like,
workplace suicide is a real thing, and unfortunately and my
career I've known of I can count them on two hands.

(01:05:11):
But that's a lot of suicides to have known about
that happened in the workplace.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
Yeah wow, yeah, medicine as well, and then you put menopause.

Speaker 5 (01:05:23):
On that and it's oh yeah, yeah, staggering.

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
Yeah, Well, they should just put us in charge where
they shouldn't they.

Speaker 5 (01:05:34):
I mean, if we ran the world, it would be
just back.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
I was just.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
Thinking, there all so many countries in the world at
the moment are being led by these emotionally damaged men.

Speaker 5 (01:05:44):
Especially have you seen, Like there's this great video online.

Speaker 4 (01:05:47):
I'll have to see if I can find it, But
it's like all of these like incredible, this incredibly diverse
beautiful group of women sitting at a table in their
suits and they're like running. It's as if they were
all running the countries in the world and they have
nothing to talk about because they've already solved all the
issues like that. They're like coast piece in your country that's.

Speaker 5 (01:06:10):
Actually saw that. How we've got plenty of clean water?
And how's the food over there? Our children have food.
It's not an issue.

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
And it's just like I hate to say that, and listen,
there are great men in the world.

Speaker 5 (01:06:24):
My husband's one of them. There are many, many great
men in the world. It's just I think when I think.

Speaker 4 (01:06:34):
About the workplace, I don't think of better men versus women.
I think that's where I think that's where it gets.
Like I love to joke about it and joke about
that video.

Speaker 5 (01:06:45):
It's not even that.

Speaker 4 (01:06:46):
I think when we think about men and women in
the workplace, the most startling thing for me that I
think people don't recognize is like one of us can
have babies and one of us can, which means that
our biological needs and hormon needs are clearly different. So
supporting us differently is actually equitable, right, It's not better

(01:07:13):
or more or women deserve more or whatever. It's like, duh, yeah,
when you can start making babies, we'll give you menopause care,
like when you go through menopause, you'll get that, right, menopause. Well,
but there's low tea, right, like a lot of these

(01:07:35):
companies offer that. And so it's just anane to me
when I have these conversations, especially with women leaders that
are looking to put these solutions in, and their.

Speaker 5 (01:07:44):
Question is always, well, how do we bring something in
this just for women that's not also for men. And
I'm like, cause it's just I just I just I'm like,
I know, do you look at it like did your
husband have a baby? Does he go through he does.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
To get pregnant and then try to get pregnant and
then maybe breastfeed and then you know, raise toddler without
getting any sleep and go to work and then go
through perimenopause and menopause. Yes, just call me when that happens.

Speaker 5 (01:08:24):
We'll support them all.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
But don't really.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
Oh all right, my friends. We're not going to solve
all the world.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
No, but we're in a good We're gonna try good starts.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:08:39):
I feel like we've I feel like we solved a
lot tonight we can talk to you. Yes, I know,
I feel bad.

Speaker 4 (01:08:46):
I feel like you were like rapping and then here
I keep going with it seems like Okay, I want
to get back to my family. Can we stop talking
about this nonsense now?

Speaker 3 (01:08:54):
And when we see you again? Are you going to
be at them Society meeting in October?

Speaker 5 (01:09:00):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
I think I'm gonna try. I don't know if you're
gonna see me whenever you want to see me. I mean,
you just send an invitation then I'm there, or I'll
send you here.

Speaker 5 (01:09:09):
Yeah, I will be.

Speaker 4 (01:09:13):
You can come see the crabs and Salem and the witches,
the witches and the Crabs, which is a really special place.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
I'll forget to let you know if you're ever coming
over this night of the country, so I don't miss you.

Speaker 5 (01:09:23):
If you're here, I'd rather meet you in Ireland.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
People won't take anybody to Ireland.

Speaker 5 (01:09:29):
We already asked, we tried to ask.

Speaker 3 (01:09:33):
Yeah, way I pack. I mean, I'm not hitting anyone
in that Listen.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
You can wrap me up in your water bottle warmer.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
I just want to follow you. I don't want to
be packed in your ship.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
You can totally come Jarland. I will bring you all.

Speaker 5 (01:09:50):
I'm coming.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
She knows how to do it. I don't know what
to do in Ireland.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
Or something. I don't need to know what I do there.

Speaker 5 (01:10:00):
Look at clips. Oh no, there's a lot to do
there and there's a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
Yeah, I need her to I would need a tour guide.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 4 (01:10:11):
Okay, so dust team up and tour arets and you
need a you need a red haired girl named Casey
even though she's Jewish and that I rushed gately.

Speaker 5 (01:10:21):
Okay, Hey, that's all.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
We don't discriminate. We start planning. We'll start planning.

Speaker 5 (01:10:26):
I'm in all right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
Good friends, Yes you have a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Was so great scene.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
Thank you and well, uh you let us know when
you want us on.

Speaker 4 (01:10:37):
We'll be on.