September 11, 2025 • 39 mins
Immersive Introduction:
Imagine believing you’ve built the perfect life—family, marriage, belonging—only to watch it all unravel, not from your own chaos, but from pain that predates you. What if that unraveling isn’t the end, but the beginning of something richer, deeper, and more whole than you ever thought possible?
In this episode of The Enlightened Life, Scott Allan welcomes Mechelle Wingle, founder of The Wholeness Network, for a raw and hopeful conversation about healing, intuition, and the paradox of wholeness. Mechelle’s story is proof that sometimes what breaks us open is the very thing that brings us home to ourselves.
If you’re ready to move beyond just “getting by” and into a life that feels truly whole, settle in—this conversation is for you.
Show Notes & Key Points:
00:02 – Cold open: When life unravels, what comes next?
01:10 – Meet Mechelle Wingle: her journey, The Wholeness Network, and why wholeness is both process and state
02:00 – Is wholeness a destination, a process, or a marketing buzzword?
03:41 – Do we have to break before we become whole?
05:54 – Discovering codependency and reclaiming selfhood as a woman
07:54 – The “put your own mask on first” moment: why self-care isn’t selfish
08:08 – Tools for healing: NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) and IFS (Internal Family Systems) explained
10:18 – What modern science misses about suffering and healing
13:11 – How do you know what healing modality you need? Listening to the body for answers
15:09 – The four “bodies”: mental, emotional, physical, spiritual—and why your body is the communicator
17:34 – Meditation, intuition, and the Indiana Jones bridge: Mechelle’s first tool for healing
19:42 – “Temporary brokenness”: Is there value in feeling broken?
22:26 – Sitting with discomfort and honoring “holy days” of pain
24:32 – Are there limits to mindfulness? When self-help turns into perfectionism
25:55 – Discovering (and finally owning) intuitive and psychic gifts
28:06 – Family, skepticism, and the “lost will” story: when intuition gets real
29:20 – Heart wisdom: why the body often knows before the mind
32:18 – Enneagram and the different ways we process intuition
34:29 – Living with a narcissist or toxic dynamic: the first philosophical shift to reclaiming wholeness
37:07 – The blue butterfly: letting go of interpretation and trusting what comes
40:17 – Special gift: Two months free access to The Wholeness Library (code: MECHELLE)
40:45 – Closing thoughts: Healing is possible, purpose is real, and wholeness is available—even when it’s messy
Links:
Don’t just listen—experience the transformation. Subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who needs a little hope and a fresh start. What’s your “blue butterfly” moment? Drop it in the comments below.
About Scott
WEB:
Want to connect with Spirit, get a private reading, or attend a live event? Visit mediumscottallan.com for bookings, event updates, and more.
PATREON:
If you love these stories and want to support more episodes, check out my Patreon for behind-the-scenes content, bonus Q&As, and special perks for supporters.
Scott's Patreon
Imagine believing you’ve built the perfect life—family, marriage, belonging—only to watch it all unravel, not from your own chaos, but from pain that predates you. What if that unraveling isn’t the end, but the beginning of something richer, deeper, and more whole than you ever thought possible?
In this episode of The Enlightened Life, Scott Allan welcomes Mechelle Wingle, founder of The Wholeness Network, for a raw and hopeful conversation about healing, intuition, and the paradox of wholeness. Mechelle’s story is proof that sometimes what breaks us open is the very thing that brings us home to ourselves.
If you’re ready to move beyond just “getting by” and into a life that feels truly whole, settle in—this conversation is for you.
Show Notes & Key Points:
00:02 – Cold open: When life unravels, what comes next?
01:10 – Meet Mechelle Wingle: her journey, The Wholeness Network, and why wholeness is both process and state
02:00 – Is wholeness a destination, a process, or a marketing buzzword?
03:41 – Do we have to break before we become whole?
05:54 – Discovering codependency and reclaiming selfhood as a woman
07:54 – The “put your own mask on first” moment: why self-care isn’t selfish
08:08 – Tools for healing: NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) and IFS (Internal Family Systems) explained
10:18 – What modern science misses about suffering and healing
13:11 – How do you know what healing modality you need? Listening to the body for answers
15:09 – The four “bodies”: mental, emotional, physical, spiritual—and why your body is the communicator
17:34 – Meditation, intuition, and the Indiana Jones bridge: Mechelle’s first tool for healing
19:42 – “Temporary brokenness”: Is there value in feeling broken?
22:26 – Sitting with discomfort and honoring “holy days” of pain
24:32 – Are there limits to mindfulness? When self-help turns into perfectionism
25:55 – Discovering (and finally owning) intuitive and psychic gifts
28:06 – Family, skepticism, and the “lost will” story: when intuition gets real
29:20 – Heart wisdom: why the body often knows before the mind
32:18 – Enneagram and the different ways we process intuition
34:29 – Living with a narcissist or toxic dynamic: the first philosophical shift to reclaiming wholeness
37:07 – The blue butterfly: letting go of interpretation and trusting what comes
40:17 – Special gift: Two months free access to The Wholeness Library (code: MECHELLE)
40:45 – Closing thoughts: Healing is possible, purpose is real, and wholeness is available—even when it’s messy
Links:
- The Wholeness Network: thewholenessnetwork.com (Use code MECHELLE for 2 months free)
Don’t just listen—experience the transformation. Subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who needs a little hope and a fresh start. What’s your “blue butterfly” moment? Drop it in the comments below.
About Scott
WEB:
Want to connect with Spirit, get a private reading, or attend a live event? Visit mediumscottallan.com for bookings, event updates, and more.
PATREON:
If you love these stories and want to support more episodes, check out my Patreon for behind-the-scenes content, bonus Q&As, and special perks for supporters.
Scott's Patreon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Imagine believing you have built the perfect life, family, marriage,
a sense of belonging, only to watch it all start
to unravel, not from your own chaos are choices, but
from pain that predates me. Now, imagine that unraveling isn't
(00:24):
the end, but rather the beginning of something so much richer, deeper,
and more whole than you've ever thought possible. Today's guest
didn't just survive that unraveling, she transformed it into a
mission to help others heal. I'm Scott Allen and you're
listening to the Enlightened Life podcast, where we explore the
mysteries of the soul's journey, healing and transformation for anyone
(00:49):
who hasn't discovered her work. Nishell Wingle is the founder
of the Wholeness Network and the creator of the Wholeness
Library or Treasure Trove, wisdom, guided metics and practical tools
for living more consciously, joyfully, and completely. He's a certified
energy worker, intuitive and teacher who brings together the best
(01:11):
of ancient and modern healing practices to help people reconnect
with their own inner power. So, if you're ready to
move beyond just getting by and into a life that
feels truly whole. You're going to love this conversation, Michelle.
(01:35):
I'm genuinely delighted to have you here. Your story is
really equal parts raw and hopeful, and I think so
many listeners are going to see themselves in your journey.
Thanks for joining us and for being willing to share
not just your expertise but your heart.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thank you. I'm grateful to be here and I love
sharing my heart, so thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I want to start with the word itself, wholeness. It's
everywhere these days, but is it really a destination? Is
it a process? Or maybe just a marketing buzzword? What's
the real difference between feeling whole and simply being okay?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, Well it's interesting. When we first started this, it
wasn't a popular word. It wasn't one that was used
all the time, and it is used quite a bit now.
But if you were to google wholeness, you would find
it's a paradox because it's both. It is being complete
and whole and the process of becoming. So it is
(02:31):
actually both and I think that's beautiful because I think,
you know, you can compare it to you know, an
apple seed is apple seed whole, and yet it's not.
An apple is an apple whole, yet it's not, you know,
on my plate, we're always evolving and we're always whole
at the same time. And I feel like in my
(02:53):
bones that just feels so true. I feel like we're
all doing the best that we can and we're moving forward,
we're growing. I feel like the opposite of growth is
that stopping. It's that damnation, it's that idea that you know,
it's just the end, it's apathy, it's stuck. And so
we are always in this growth cycle, and I feel
(03:14):
like for me on times even still, it pops up
where I'm like, I'm done growing. I don't I don't
want to grow anywhere because growth has innately it has
some discomfort because we're moving into a place that we
are not used to. I think if we embrace this
idea of wholeness, it takes away a little bit of
the sting, because it's like, well, it's not that I'm
(03:35):
there's a deficit in me. It's just that I'm growing
and being enlightened, adding more light into who I am
and what I think and.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
How I feel well, and I love that because you know,
you had said that your family's crisis was really a
catalyst for awakening. So in your experience, we talk about wholeness,
do we have to break before we can become whole?
Or is there another way?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
And you know, there is definitely there's allay other ways.
But I feel like right now, in a lot of
people's consciousness, it does take some kind of some kind
of a tap on the shoulder or some kind of
a pain point that pushes us to the other side.
At least for me, I think. I think there are
definitely those old souls that come in and have that wisdom,
(04:18):
and a lot of times those ones are taken early,
you know, to be honest, But you know, I hope
for the day that that that's not the case, that
there's a there's a disruption, but usually usually there is.
Usually there is, and for me, I feel like there
had to be. I was just doing fine and going
to live, you know, going to be on this other
(04:39):
course of just being you know, a mom, just hanging
out and doing so It's hard for me to even
imagine that that's what I thought. But I was just
doing that thing, and then difficulties happened. The first thing
was my kids went to school, and I thought, this
is going to be so great. My my house will
be clean for the first time in how many years?
And then a week later, I thought, is that will
(05:00):
you all that I'm about? You know? Is that all
of who I am? And that was like a sinking
feeling because I hadn't prepared for this, for anything beyond.
I just hadn't. And so then and then as my
husband started to just struggle, he just began to be
a different person, started to change. And three years of
therapy and study finding out that you know, he suffers
(05:24):
from CPTSD, from a childhood emotional neglect and these we
was taught to hold the feelings in, taught to be
a good boy, to always do things right, and at
late thirties, early forties, things you just can't hold it
anymore and it starts to fall apart. And the programming
is is like I got to pull it together. I
got to pull it together until it was difficult, and
(05:46):
at one point he was asleep. He would go to work,
come home and sleep till the next day. For almost
a year and a half, just in turmoil, just didn't
know how to function. All the tools that had been
available to both of us. Our whole lives just became mute.
They didn't they weren't working. And so as he was
(06:07):
on that journey, I started on a healing journey and decided,
you know, I couldn't do his healing, but I could
figure out my own, because it devastated me. And you know,
now I know that, you know, in an interdependent relationship,
I have my own life and my own you know, experience,
(06:28):
not dependent on him. I think as a woman, i'm
kind of we're often programmed to, you know, exist in
in tangent with with our man, you know, instead of
having an independent self, you know, within within me. And
so when he wasn't okay, I wasn't okay. And I
remember reading one morning, waking up and just going, I
(06:48):
need to read Codependent No More, which I had kind
of heard of, but I never read it. Went to
the bookstore, got the audio, the manual and the copy
of the book and read it and said, that's what's
going on. And I think I think a lot of
that was trained in me. That was trained. I grew
up in a very patriarchal society, and that was what
(07:10):
I was supposed to do. I was supposed to show
up in you know, as a secondary person next to
my man, and then when he wasn't okay, I didn't
even know how to function.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
So yeah, well it reminds me a little bit too,
just what you were saying just a moment ago. It's
sort of like when you get on an airplane they
tell you to put your own mask on. If you
can't take care of yourself, how can you take care
of anybody else. You need to deal with your own
stuff first so that you can help other people and
realize that you are not just riding in the sidecar.
(07:41):
You're not. You know, you have to you have to
take care of yourself. I want to ask you about
some of the tools that you've used and explored, and
maybe you can explain too, just for people who may
not know, because you've explored NLP and IFS and and
other ancient spiritual tools. What what isn't so?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
NLP is a neural language stick programming, and it's a
lot about thinking in the brain and understanding our thoughts
and how to shift them using It's really fascinating because
we our five senses, is how, and that we have
more than that. But that's how we perceive the world.
We perceive the world that way, and so we can
(08:20):
take a little test and understand what is our dominant sense.
So some of us are seeing, some of us are hearing,
some of us are feeling. And so when we find that,
then we find we've found a portal into our subconscious
and we can use that portal to retrain ourselves, you know.
So that's what NLP is. IFS stands for internal family systems.
(08:43):
It's really popular right now. There's a whole lot of
talk about it. It was began by Richard Swartz and
I'm currently taking another class from him. Just just love it.
And it's about parts work if you've ever heard of
parts work, And the beauty about parts work that matches
perfectly with wholeness is that there's this idea that we
(09:04):
at the core of our being have what he calls
the self or the true self, and this true self
has all of our knowledge, all of our healing, all
of our compassion. And when we can tune into that self,
then we can not only get answers, but we can
talk to and help these parts of us. And it
makes sense because there's when we have a decision to
(09:25):
make most of the time, there's a part of us
that wants A, and there's a part of us that
wants B. Or there's a part of us that says
I want A and there's another part that says, yeah,
but I don't know. I don't know if I'm good
enough or whatever. Both of those are parts. And when
we actually acknowledge them and have a literally like have
a conversation with these parts within us, then and connected
(09:48):
to that self, we can understand things, heal things. It's
really fascinating. It's a therapy. So most of the time
you would go to a therapist to have ifs, but
this is the first time he's allowed and teaching coaches
to do it. So I'm so so excited to get
that certification.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
What do you think that modern science is missing about
the nature of suffering and healing?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I would just say some compassion, I think. I think
sometimes in that modern thing, you get into the numbers,
you get into the statistics, you get into the who's
and what's. But sometimes everyone's different, you know. And that's
what I love about ifs. That's what I love about
even the reiki and and things like that that I
took a heart centered therapy training, and what that is
(10:33):
is that teaches me to be in the moment with
the person there, walking with them. In ifs, we always
let whatever answer comes, we go with it. There's never
it's not. It's been a kind of interesting because, like
I say, this is the first time that he's allowed
coaches to do it. So in fact, I'm going to
be on a call today and there's going to be
five hundred people on this call and they're all coaches,
(10:55):
and coaching is used to saying, hey have you done this?
What's going on? How come you haven't done this? What's wrong?
You know, like, hey, you promise me you'll do this,
and a couple you know, we have to reteach us
and say, that's not what this is about. This is
about asking a question, getting an answer, and saying, okay,
that makes sense because everything we do honestly makes sense
(11:17):
from the path that we have walked. And when you
really embody that, it's amazing how the world just seems
a little kinder and we have a lot more patience
with ourselves and with other people, and we get to
let go of some of those those biases that we
just naturally have, which in ifs we call those parts.
(11:37):
Those are parts, So we need to understand those parts. Hey,
what's going on? And in parts work parts are always
we call them protectors. They serve a purpose because they're
there to protect us in some way, even if it
doesn't make sense, even if it's cutting, even if it's
an addiction, there's a there's a protective quality to it.
And when we go and talk to that part, it's
(11:58):
amazing what it will share, what it will but it
will explain, and it's just there's a lot of that
makes that makes sense, and so as we build a
relationship with them, then they can begin to tell us
more and more. At most of the time, some of
the ones that are bigger disruptions, we can see that
there are these moments in our past where things were
(12:19):
hard and we took on these beliefs or this way
of being that was necessary for the time. It's just trying.
It's this young, young part of us trying to do
this heavy work. And when they get unburdened, it's really
amazing to see how quickly change change can come when
we understand the WAW.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
So you used to develop the found of the wholeness network, right,
which brings together dozens of healing modalities, but we all
want to and I want to talk about that. I
want to talk about what that is, but I also
want to understand a little bit. If someone goes on
to the Wholeness network, how do they discern what they
really need? Because I feel like sometimes when you know,
(13:01):
you go to therapy or you go to you know,
anything like that, even if you go to a coach,
you know know what you need because you don't know
what you don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's true. And if that's the case, I
think there's reason to pause right there. There's just reason
to pause and recognize that we don't understand ourselves in
a way that we were hoping to. So that's step
one is that I don't have access to information within me,
(13:30):
which I think a lot of times. The number one
reason for that is because we disconnect from our bodies.
Because a long time ago, when I was thinking about
some things, and it was funny, now we talk about
these four bodies mental body, emotional body, physical body, spiritual body.
But a long time ago, I was sitting in meditation
and that idea came to me. I had lost a
bunch of weight and I was trying to understand how
(13:52):
I did it, because everybody wanted to say, how did
you do it? And it wasn't about my exercise, it
wasn't about what I ate. It was this aha moment
I had to just wrong belief that I had birthed
four kids and therefore I could not be a thin person.
That was just as simple as that. And when that
broke down, every everything changed. Like in an instant that
broke down, everything changed. And so I was trying to
(14:13):
figure out how I could explain to everybody this idea
because it because they didn't have the same belief. To them,
they were like, well, that's dumb.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So I was sitting there in meditation and I thought,
you know, everybody says I'm an emotional eater, and this
thought percolated, and I said, what if what if the
weight is in the emotional body? You know, what if
we have these bodies, what if it accumulates more than
just the physical body, and all we do is attend
the physical body, and yet we have these other bodies
(14:46):
that need to be So that set me on a
big journey of those those four bodies. But what was
interesting is in so I explored more and I realized
that the body is the communicator. That was how it
was spoken to me. The body is the communicator. And
I I remember speaking to my colleague about it and
saying that, and she says, but I have feelings, And
I says, how does it feel in your body? And
(15:08):
she went, oh, because we do, we feel things, we
understand things. We usually have a physical sensation in our
body when we're doing this, but when we have difficulties,
then we have difficult sensations in our body. So the
easiest way to, you know, to get rid of those
cut it off and cut it off, so then we
lose access to that information. So then we need to
(15:31):
start with maybe some body connection. So if we don't know,
we would start with some body connections. So learning to
meditate is is really important. Now I don't care what
kind of meditation to do. In fact, for the longest
time I was, I would sit there and people would
talk about meditating, and I'm like, that's not how I
do it. Normally, people try to get rid of their
(15:52):
thoughts during meditation. I actually will sit there and of
course my mind's running around like a you know, like
a maniac, like everybody, and then pretty soon all of
a sudden, It'll just zero in on a thought or
an idea, and I just go with it, and I
learned profound things. That was how one of the first
tools that I ever had was I was somebody said,
(16:13):
why don't you try meditating? And in this meditation ask
for a gift is what I was, you know. And
I was like, I don't know. So I sit in
my closet. You I close my eyes. My heart is
beating out of my chest because I'm in such turmoil
that if this doesn't work, you know, it's one of
those things where I don't know what I'll do. So
(16:33):
I kind of just sat there for a minute, and
all of a sudden, I all of a sudden the
scene changed and I was in this this ravine, and
there was a like I always picture it like in
the movie The Last The Last Crusade with Indiana Jones,
you know, and at the end he goes on that
long trail and he can't see anything until he throws
some sand on it and realizes it's this narrow, narrow
(16:55):
path that crosses this this long ravine. It was very
much like that, and there was it was a ways
to cross. It took it took some time. You know,
I knew I was going to be that was going
to be scary to cross that, and so the thoughts
came to my mind, well, I'll just hurry and fall
off and get it over with. Like that's the feeling
I had, and I was I was. I felt this,
(17:15):
you know, feeling of don't do that, keep going, and
so I in that meditation, you know, kind of and
probably just stared at it for a while and just
like I don't know what I'm going to do. And
then I would go back to it several times, and
over years, I would check in and I would be
a little bit further on that path, a little bit
further on that path. Then I remember feeling like I've
(17:38):
gotten through it. Now I'm in a desert, you know,
and then I would be like, okay, there's and I'd
have this feeling there's an oasis up ahead, just keep moving.
And to tell it, I felt like that that completed
at some point. But that's what kept me going, you know.
That was that first time I ever meditated, The first
tool I ever had was so profound. It's what brought
(17:58):
me here today because it just just keep going, don't
give up, don't stop. You could like that was the
feeling you could, But we really wish you wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
We wish you wouldn't. Yeah, changing the mindset, I think
is really where. You know, it's sort of funny. I'm
chuckling a little bit in my head when you had
said something about, well, you know, I've had four babies,
so therefore I have extra weight, and you know the
reality is, you know, I just turned fifty nine. I'm
not astin as. I mean, you know, I'm not obedes,
but I'm not like I was when I was nineteen.
Nor do I want to be that thin again. Right.
(18:30):
But the funny thing is is we we're talking. I
just had this conversation with someone about how you know,
we're we're not like we used to be. The bodies
aren't the same as it used to be. And I
jokingly said to this friend of mine, well, my son
is going to be twelve. He just turned twelve, actually
just turned twelve. And I said, well, you know, I said,
I don't understand he's twelve years old and I still
(18:50):
haven't lost my baby weight. You know, I mean, it's
you know, that excuse, But you know, there are a
bunch of excuses, and you know, it's getting out of
your head to get in and change, change the direction
and the path and know that you can really take
that journey. You know, some spiritual teachers will say too,
you know you are not broken, but what about those
(19:13):
who really feel it or even benefit from seeing themselves
in that way? Is there value do you think in
I want to say temporary brokenness because we don't ever
want to be there forever, But you think there's some
value in that? Or no?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Well, you know, if I was working with a client
one on one and they said I feel like it's
important to say I'm broken and I need to be fixed,
then I would sit with them and say, okay, I
will be broken with you. You know, let's be broken together.
What does that feel like? What does feeling broken make
you want to do? You know, let's really explore that feeling.
(19:48):
What sensations in our body does that bring up? And
then most of the time I'm just like, yeah, right, yeah,
that's right. What would it what would happen or what
what if we could be fixed? What would that feel like?
We can practice that as well. That's the exciting thing
about humans is that we can practice states of being,
and we have access to all of those emotions. And
(20:10):
that's the other thing too. Again, I would recognize, Okay,
there's a part of us that feels broken. Does that
feel correct? You know? Versus we're all broken, and that
helps a little bit to separate ourselves from this piece
and then we can talk to that feeling, that part
that feels broken. But we we have access to all
these emotions. And we think that we're trying to get
(20:31):
to a point where we have no quote negative emotions.
But that's kind of like I want to see only
the colors that are my favorite and nothing else, you know,
Like we are human beings here having an experience of humanity,
like being human, and so we will have all those emotions.
The thing that's the problem is is that in our
society we have decided there are good and they are bad,
(20:53):
or if there are bad, we have done something, or
if they are bad, we've got to hurry and make
that go away. I still fill that on some days.
I still feel that I have to sit with it
and say, Okay, feel what does this feel like? It'd
have to get really clear on what it feels like,
and especially like I say, in the body communicate, say
there it is in the body, Okay, is there anything
you want me to do? Or is there anything you
(21:15):
want me to say? And sometimes it's just I just
need to feel this for a minute, and the discomfort
is great. Sometimes I don't like it, but I but
by nature, emotions they shift and they move. That's one
of their major qualities is that they move and change.
If I can hold it for a little bit, you know,
and maybe I have to reach out and get help.
(21:36):
Sometimes I need someone to sit with me in that.
But if I can hold through it, then it processes out,
it expresses out, and then sometimes sometimes I've got to
go to bed and wake up the next day. It's
like that, but I hold that space for that day
that it's like, this is a you know, in some way,
this is a holy day. This one's difficult, this one's harder.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
It's funny. And I was just going to say to you, you know,
the paradox of healing is that the things that hurt
is the most are some comes to very things that
wake us up a little bit further.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
You know, It's true. It's true. And I would say,
you know, just because it's difficult and we don't like it.
Let's you know, you can acknowledge that this is really
this hurts. You know, I don't like this. I wish
it was a little bit different, you know, and instead
of saying, but it's okay, but it's okay, you know,
like really go into those emotions and especially know that
(22:26):
that's just one part, because there is that other part
that says, yeah, but there's growth here, So we listen
to both parts fully. You know, when was the first
time I felt this way? Once you get really really
clear about the feelings inside the body and what it
feels like, we can say when was the first time
I felt this, and you'll be surprised to what comes forward,
(22:48):
things that you don't expect. Sometimes it's just a small,
simple thing that's showed up in our childhood that has
created this. Yeah, and never doing that again, right, which
is great, it's like that's nice, but you need to
you know, But that younger person's trying to carry that
load and saying, we got to never do this again.
So I've got to do this, this, this, this, you know,
to make sure that doesn't happen again. That's a young
(23:10):
it's a young person. They don't know how to do that.
So a lot of times you can tell them how
you know, you can say, you know, how how old
do you think I am? And a lot of times
those parts laugh. You know. I had to Colliet the
other day and she's like, I said, just how old
did they think you are? And she said, oh, young?
And I said, well, let them know how old you are.
She was in her sixties, and she said, they're just laughing,
like are you kidding me? And so we asked, you know,
(23:31):
do you think a sixty three year old could could
handle this? And they were like, yeah, actually, okay, that
makes sense. I don't have to do it. We've got
this self that's able to do all things.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yeah. Are there limits to mindfulness?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Well? I think yeah, I think that's a good question.
I think, you know, I think we again, we're here
to have a human experience, and so some days we're
going to you know, we you know, someday we're going
to watch that show. Sometimes we're going to listen to
that music. Sometimes we're going to eat that food, and
and you know, maybe that's maybe if we are actually choosing,
(24:09):
maybe that's mindfulness. You know, I don't know, but but yeah,
I think that sometimes I think we have to. You know,
I think that people can get like there's a line
where we move into this the opposite end of the spectrum,
you know, and that's not necessarily healthy either.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Well true, and and you know that's what I was
going to say too. Is there the danger of slipping
into perfectionism?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I've known when I've gone
to conferences. You know, you're looking at maybe this is
an energy healing conference, and I see people sitting there
and they're sniffing their essential oils every three minutes. I'm thinking, Okay,
we're still not addressing the underlying problems. You know, we've
moved onto a different tool, but there's some anxiety there,
(24:55):
there's some hurt there, and we need to pause there
for a minute.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Right right, that's a potion. I mean, it's it's sort
of all encompassing. You also teach intuitive and psychic development
a little bit.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, well, I'm learning it myself. I have always been intuitive. Yeah,
I didn't know I was intuitive till my late forties.
I didn't know that little kids didn't have conversations with
their dead grandma when they were little, and you know,
talk about how they what their mom has just done
and said like, can you can you do something with
for her? She's you know, I'm taveling to my grandma
who's dead when I'm five years old. You know, like
(25:29):
this happened quite a bit. I did not know that
other people didn't do that. I just thought, you know,
I don't know. So and again my upbringing and I
was so focused on being a good mom and being
a good wife and being a good homemaker. I didn't develop.
I didn't take time to say, wow, I have some
(25:51):
of these gifts. So it's been a journey for me
to accept that. It took a long time to accept that.
It took a long time to speak it out loud.
And so it's one of those things where it, you know,
like there's just inspiration sometimes that comes things that were
our family. After my dad passed away, there was all
of his his book with all of the will and
(26:14):
the trust was missing. They had and they had tried
to find it even before my dad had passed. He's like,
I have all this information and I don't know where
it's at. And the lawyer, the attorney had stopped working
or something I can't remember. So it was just kind
of like we've got to find this paperwork, and I was,
you know, a lot of times I get woken up
in the middle of the night and I drew a
(26:35):
picture of where something lost. I wasn't sure what it was.
And then we were going to my dad's house to
kind of help clean it out, and people were talking
about this lost thing and my brother in law it
was the one who had kind of came to me
and I. So when they were talking about it, I said, Okay,
let me think of where this is. It was like
a piece of furniture that was low, that had a
scallop at the bottom and there was kind of maybe
(26:56):
books behind, and it was behind. So I walked where
it was picked it up. So here here it is.
And my family was like what which Still they still
I'm the youngest. I'm the youngest of seven kids.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And so my six siblings are just kind of like,
who who are you? You know, I was a little
extra at the end. I was surprised little at the end.
So my closest siblings six and a half years older
than me. So I was always that cute little sister.
And so they're like, what happened? Because I did? I changed?
I wasn't always this person because I didn't know, so
they were That was the first time they were like,
(27:30):
is this what you're kind of talking about? And I
think to this day they're still kind of like, I
don't what happened there, or just like pretend like that
didn't happen. It was like a little it was a
little freaky, but it was and it freaked me out too.
I was shaking.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I was like, why, Yeah, but you could have brushed
it off as a coincidence, and I think that's what
a lot of people do, right, So the intuition is
what a coincidence? I was just thinking of that or whatever,
you know, and it's not always the case. You know,
there is something else.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yes, yeah, we all have that access, we all do.
It's about tuning in and again back to the body.
It's like I can feel in my bettery whether it's
my own brain talking or whether it's something else, and
I have to that's the muscle to practice, honestly.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, speaking of the body, is there is there a
wisdom wisdom that you found in the physical that you
couldn't reach through the mind or spirit.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Alone in the physical and the physical my physical body
or physically Yeah, yeah, so the heart is like, to me,
that's like a portal. That's like a portal to heaven.
Like you can if you bring if you just take
a couple breaths. You can just take a couple of
breaths right now and just imagine dropping that all this.
First of all, you got to get noticed all the
stuff that's going in your brain, like it's actually buzzing,
(28:42):
you know, and you can bring that sensation down onto
the heart and you just feel kind of this light light,
and then you can ask your heart questions. I have
a colleague, she calls it the Google. She's like, it's
better than Google. You can ask a question like what
is best for me? What should I do right now?
And really understanding again back to those senses, you know,
(29:05):
am I going to hear it? Am I going to
see it? Maybe a visual show up? Maybe I'll hear
like a word, maybe I will feel something in my body,
and then we have to ask again, So tell me more,
you know, tell me where. We got to stick with
it for a little bit, maybe to practice, but the
wisdom can come that fit that heart, you know, whether
(29:25):
it's our heart physically, but it's also that heart chakra
which is the bridge between all the spiritual and the
physical chakras, and so there's there's a power there. You know.
We can also on the hold on this network. One
of our guides is her name's Christine Lange, and she
just has a book out that says, you know, ask
your spirit and she I was looking to see if
(29:47):
I had it around, but you know, and she talks
about you know, your spirit has answers for you. You
can learn to talk to your own spirit and say
what do I need? And when you build that muscle,
you can it's there, which again you would probably call
that and I FS that biggest self. You know, it's
the same same concept. Different vocabulary. Vocabulary gets us tripped
(30:07):
up a lot when you're first starting out. That vocabulary
can get your tripped up because there's so many words,
like you'll you'll say, like I remember feeling the idea
of duality and there was like, no, we don't want dualistic. Well, well,
the duality you know, it's like if you actually look
it up, it's another paradox. It's it's both and And
so we get confused with don't don't get stuck on
the on the vocabulary. Everybody's got a different word, and
(30:29):
we got to feel it. That's why we've got to
feel it in our bodies more than our brains.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
I think you're absolutely right, and don't get discouraged if
you're not getting it the first or second time. It
really you will start to understand not just the way
it feels, but how spirit communicates with you. It's because
we're all different, right, So you receive what you receive
and how I receive might be entirely different. And you know,
you say, am I feeling it? Thinking and knowing it?
(30:54):
But sometimes it's a little bit of each and it's
sort of like being a jigsaw puzzle together to make
get fit and understand what the message is that's that's coming.
So don't don't give up on that, will It is
a little nuanced, Yeah, it is, use any language at all.
I mean, I don't sit there, well this reality, you know,
I don't any of that, you know, yep, don't get
(31:15):
caught up in it.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah. I love one of the tools. I love. I
love the enneagram. Sometimes that's helpful because people understand a
little bit more about themselves. And in the enneagram it's
divided into a trine and there's people that are in
the body trying. There's people that are in the feelings trying,
and there's people that are in the mind trying, and
that's helpful sometimes because there's a lot of it's really
difficult for people that are very mind based to feel
(31:38):
like they can come into this world because everybody's like,
don't pay attention to your mind, don't pay attention. But
that doesn't work. They are mind based, they are going
to it's going to process a little differently for them,
and they've got to practice and figure out where how
that works. But it might be probably be very visual
things like that, so you can't you know, the mind
(31:58):
is not bad, we just need to bring in the
other thing. So it's like, okay, here's this thought. Okay,
how do I feel about that thought? What does that
thought feel like in my body? And then the spiritual
body is all about connection and meaning. How is that
meaningful for me? Or what meaning does that have for me?
Because you'll get like a picture and it's not going
to feel the same for everybody. It's not going to
(32:19):
feel the same for everybody. So how does that mean
for me? What is that? What is that trying to
say to me? And you can think it, you can
think through it and then check it with those other bodies.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah, and I find too. And I don't know if
if you can understand this either, but it's almost like
sometimes the less you think, the better it's just coming.
And what's what's the first thing that kind of like
how did it first make you feel? As if you
start thinking, then your brain's in the way and things
kind of go awry, you know, because what I see
(32:53):
is not necessarily what you see, you think, and so
you just have to kind of you know, sometimes you
just can't get your head in it too much. We
just talked about people who are head based, and I
totally get that. Yeah, yeah, I have always been that
way a little bit. It took me so long to
kind of open up because I was, I say, kind
of a healthy skeptic. I was a good Yeah, I believed,
but I needed it to be proven to me. Just
(33:16):
just just a quick question on someone, you know someone,
So someone's listening to this and they are living with
a narcissist or they're in some kind of a toxic dynamic,
what do you think is the first philosophical shift that
they might need to make, not just for their own survival,
but for reclaiming their wholeness.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Number one is sometimes it is them and not us.
You know, we're always trying to do our own work,
which is which is good, you know, but sometimes that
gets us tripped up because it's like, well, maybe if
I do this, you know, to understand the dynamic of
the relationship. So many people they don't like, you know,
to use that word a narcissist. You know, they're like, well,
I don't want to call them that I know, and
it's like, well, I don't want to call them anything.
(33:55):
It's not about calling it. It's about understanding the dynamic.
And when we understand the dynamic of a really it's
very predictable. And so when we know that dynamic, then
we can start to work on ourselves. We have to
understand the dynamic of what we're working with. Because even
my husband in his therapy one day, he says, I
think I might be a little narcissistic or narcissistic tendencies,
(34:17):
and the therapist is kind of nodded because it wasn't
because he's this diagnosed narcissist. That's one thing that gets struggles.
There is a diagnosis. But because he was so wounded.
He was just focused on his own self. He couldn't
put himself in somebody else's perspective because he was in
such pain inside himself. So understand, you know. So even
(34:38):
still I'm still married to him, I still love him,
but we had to understand that dynamic for a time
that it was like, he is so self focused that
I can't expect him to assume my position. He can't
for a minute. So more therapy came and that changed,
But for that minute, I mean, it was him that
kind of said I think I'm that way, and that
started to shift things. But yeah, it's sometimes it's them,
(34:59):
sometimes it's not us. And most of the time, when
you're with a narcissist, you're the most empathic person, so
you will try to fix yourself to support the other person.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
It's so funny you say that, because my whole life
I am an EmPATH, and the whole life I was
I don't want to say attracted in a romantic way,
but just sort of like magnetically attracted it felt to
people who needed to be fixed by Yeah, this is
all I thought. They I hate to fix these people,
and I didn't even realize I was doing it until
(35:29):
I look back years later and I don't want to.
I don't need to do that. That's not right. Yeah,
before we wrap up, is there a story or a
thought you'd love to leave with our listeners.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Well, I just wanted to popped in when we were
talking about, you know, receiving that stuff in the flow
and things like that. So one time I was I
dared to put out like a free webinar where I
was going to practice my intuitiveness. You know. I was like,
that was really scary. And a lady you know, got
on and and she I immediately started to see some visuals.
(36:05):
And what happened was is I begin to saw what
I first saw as I saw a little girl reaching
up and holding the hand of her mom. And then
and my brain wanted to think about what that meant,
you know, I wanted to go into what this means
versus just saying it, and so I kind of and
then it moved on to the next thing, and I
saw this little doll, and so I said, okay, I
(36:26):
see there's like a doll. And she was like, oh
my gosh, my mom. She collected dolls, you know, she
collected dolls. And and we went off on this tangent,
but it was and when she described the dolls, it
looked different than the doll I had seen. And so
I got off the call and we went on a
bike ride, and I just thought, okay. I was like
(36:47):
half praying, half asking my guides, half talking to myself,
you know, saying, okay, listen, if I'm going to do this,
I need to know if like, well, it was that right,
you know. It was the first time I had done
it with somebody, just out there on with somebody I
didn't know, And so I said, I need to know
if this is my path, will you show me a
(37:08):
blue butterfly? You know, blue butterfly, that's my message. Let's go.
So we went on this bike ride. I saw the
color blue that I was looking for a thousand places,
but never a butterfly, and my heart would just be beating.
I'm like, oh no, this is what am I going
to do? Is that supposed to? You know whatever. We
went on a different path that we usually go, and
(37:29):
as we came around the court, you know, we're almost home,
I thought, is this is that the lesson is to like,
you know, like to not interpret it, you know, kind
of this idea of like, are you trying to show
me something? And that second I turned, there's a blue
butterfly that's turned right there. So I learned a lesson
not to interpret, but to just say what I saw.
(37:50):
Come to find out, I talked to the woman later
her sister had passed, was passed and her mom and
her sister had a missing arm, which I didn't know,
So that was the whole reaching. She was able to
reach up and hold hands with her mom now that
she wouldn't have been able to do in physical form.
And so there were deep messages there that I didn't
(38:11):
get because I was trying to find the meaning in myself.
I was trying to logic it and figure it out.
So that was a really good lesson to learn to
just great lesson, let it, let it be, just let
the answers come instead of trying to interpret them.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
But it's so easy to do it, is it's difficult
not to do it? Eh?
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yeah? Actually, yeah, that's what that's what I read.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
You're right, it's true, it's true. Thank you so much, Michelle.
I appreciate you being here. And if you all want
to dive a little deeper into Michelle's world, check out
the Wholeness Network. Is it the Wholeness Network dot Yes.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
The Wholenessnetwork dot com. Yep.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
And here's a special gift. Use code michelleme as you
can see at the screen m E C H E
l l E for two months free access to the
Wholeness Library, packed with wisdom, meditations, and practical tools help
you feel more whole every day. And if you enjoyed
this conversation, please share it with someone who might need
a little hope or a fresh start. And don't forget
(39:08):
to subscribe, leave a review, and join us next week
for more stories or transformation on the Enlightened Life podcast.
Till then, healing is possible, purpose is real, and wholeness
is available to every one of us, even if it
looks a little messy along the way. We'll see you
next time.
Imagine believing you have built the perfect life, family, marriage,
a sense of belonging, only to watch it all start
to unravel, not from your own chaos are choices, but
from pain that predates me. Now, imagine that unraveling isn't
(00:24):
the end, but rather the beginning of something so much richer, deeper,
and more whole than you've ever thought possible. Today's guest
didn't just survive that unraveling, she transformed it into a
mission to help others heal. I'm Scott Allen and you're
listening to the Enlightened Life podcast, where we explore the
mysteries of the soul's journey, healing and transformation for anyone
(00:49):
who hasn't discovered her work. Nishell Wingle is the founder
of the Wholeness Network and the creator of the Wholeness
Library or Treasure Trove, wisdom, guided metics and practical tools
for living more consciously, joyfully, and completely. He's a certified
energy worker, intuitive and teacher who brings together the best
(01:11):
of ancient and modern healing practices to help people reconnect
with their own inner power. So, if you're ready to
move beyond just getting by and into a life that
feels truly whole. You're going to love this conversation, Michelle.
(01:35):
I'm genuinely delighted to have you here. Your story is
really equal parts raw and hopeful, and I think so
many listeners are going to see themselves in your journey.
Thanks for joining us and for being willing to share
not just your expertise but your heart.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thank you. I'm grateful to be here and I love
sharing my heart, so thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I want to start with the word itself, wholeness. It's
everywhere these days, but is it really a destination? Is
it a process? Or maybe just a marketing buzzword? What's
the real difference between feeling whole and simply being okay?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, Well it's interesting. When we first started this, it
wasn't a popular word. It wasn't one that was used
all the time, and it is used quite a bit now.
But if you were to google wholeness, you would find
it's a paradox because it's both. It is being complete
and whole and the process of becoming. So it is
(02:31):
actually both and I think that's beautiful because I think,
you know, you can compare it to you know, an
apple seed is apple seed whole, and yet it's not.
An apple is an apple whole, yet it's not, you know,
on my plate, we're always evolving and we're always whole
at the same time. And I feel like in my
(02:53):
bones that just feels so true. I feel like we're
all doing the best that we can and we're moving forward,
we're growing. I feel like the opposite of growth is
that stopping. It's that damnation, it's that idea that you know,
it's just the end, it's apathy, it's stuck. And so
we are always in this growth cycle, and I feel
(03:14):
like for me on times even still, it pops up
where I'm like, I'm done growing. I don't I don't
want to grow anywhere because growth has innately it has
some discomfort because we're moving into a place that we
are not used to. I think if we embrace this
idea of wholeness, it takes away a little bit of
the sting, because it's like, well, it's not that I'm
(03:35):
there's a deficit in me. It's just that I'm growing
and being enlightened, adding more light into who I am
and what I think and.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
How I feel well, and I love that because you know,
you had said that your family's crisis was really a
catalyst for awakening. So in your experience, we talk about wholeness,
do we have to break before we can become whole?
Or is there another way?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
And you know, there is definitely there's allay other ways.
But I feel like right now, in a lot of
people's consciousness, it does take some kind of some kind
of a tap on the shoulder or some kind of
a pain point that pushes us to the other side.
At least for me, I think. I think there are
definitely those old souls that come in and have that wisdom,
(04:18):
and a lot of times those ones are taken early,
you know, to be honest, But you know, I hope
for the day that that that's not the case, that
there's a there's a disruption, but usually usually there is.
Usually there is, and for me, I feel like there
had to be. I was just doing fine and going
to live, you know, going to be on this other
(04:39):
course of just being you know, a mom, just hanging
out and doing so It's hard for me to even
imagine that that's what I thought. But I was just
doing that thing, and then difficulties happened. The first thing
was my kids went to school, and I thought, this
is going to be so great. My my house will
be clean for the first time in how many years?
And then a week later, I thought, is that will
(05:00):
you all that I'm about? You know? Is that all
of who I am? And that was like a sinking
feeling because I hadn't prepared for this, for anything beyond.
I just hadn't. And so then and then as my
husband started to just struggle, he just began to be
a different person, started to change. And three years of
therapy and study finding out that you know, he suffers
(05:24):
from CPTSD, from a childhood emotional neglect and these we
was taught to hold the feelings in, taught to be
a good boy, to always do things right, and at
late thirties, early forties, things you just can't hold it
anymore and it starts to fall apart. And the programming
is is like I got to pull it together. I
got to pull it together until it was difficult, and
(05:46):
at one point he was asleep. He would go to work,
come home and sleep till the next day. For almost
a year and a half, just in turmoil, just didn't
know how to function. All the tools that had been
available to both of us. Our whole lives just became mute.
They didn't they weren't working. And so as he was
(06:07):
on that journey, I started on a healing journey and decided,
you know, I couldn't do his healing, but I could
figure out my own, because it devastated me. And you know,
now I know that, you know, in an interdependent relationship,
I have my own life and my own you know, experience,
(06:28):
not dependent on him. I think as a woman, i'm
kind of we're often programmed to, you know, exist in
in tangent with with our man, you know, instead of
having an independent self, you know, within within me. And
so when he wasn't okay, I wasn't okay. And I
remember reading one morning, waking up and just going, I
(06:48):
need to read Codependent No More, which I had kind
of heard of, but I never read it. Went to
the bookstore, got the audio, the manual and the copy
of the book and read it and said, that's what's
going on. And I think I think a lot of
that was trained in me. That was trained. I grew
up in a very patriarchal society, and that was what
(07:10):
I was supposed to do. I was supposed to show
up in you know, as a secondary person next to
my man, and then when he wasn't okay, I didn't
even know how to function.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
So yeah, well it reminds me a little bit too,
just what you were saying just a moment ago. It's
sort of like when you get on an airplane they
tell you to put your own mask on. If you
can't take care of yourself, how can you take care
of anybody else. You need to deal with your own
stuff first so that you can help other people and
realize that you are not just riding in the sidecar.
(07:41):
You're not. You know, you have to you have to
take care of yourself. I want to ask you about
some of the tools that you've used and explored, and
maybe you can explain too, just for people who may
not know, because you've explored NLP and IFS and and
other ancient spiritual tools. What what isn't so?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
NLP is a neural language stick programming, and it's a
lot about thinking in the brain and understanding our thoughts
and how to shift them using It's really fascinating because
we our five senses, is how, and that we have
more than that. But that's how we perceive the world.
We perceive the world that way, and so we can
(08:20):
take a little test and understand what is our dominant sense.
So some of us are seeing, some of us are hearing,
some of us are feeling. And so when we find that,
then we find we've found a portal into our subconscious
and we can use that portal to retrain ourselves, you know.
So that's what NLP is. IFS stands for internal family systems.
(08:43):
It's really popular right now. There's a whole lot of
talk about it. It was began by Richard Swartz and
I'm currently taking another class from him. Just just love it.
And it's about parts work if you've ever heard of
parts work, And the beauty about parts work that matches
perfectly with wholeness is that there's this idea that we
(09:04):
at the core of our being have what he calls
the self or the true self, and this true self
has all of our knowledge, all of our healing, all
of our compassion. And when we can tune into that self,
then we can not only get answers, but we can
talk to and help these parts of us. And it
makes sense because there's when we have a decision to
(09:25):
make most of the time, there's a part of us
that wants A, and there's a part of us that
wants B. Or there's a part of us that says
I want A and there's another part that says, yeah,
but I don't know. I don't know if I'm good
enough or whatever. Both of those are parts. And when
we actually acknowledge them and have a literally like have
a conversation with these parts within us, then and connected
(09:48):
to that self, we can understand things, heal things. It's
really fascinating. It's a therapy. So most of the time
you would go to a therapist to have ifs, but
this is the first time he's allowed and teaching coaches
to do it. So I'm so so excited to get
that certification.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
What do you think that modern science is missing about
the nature of suffering and healing?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I would just say some compassion, I think. I think
sometimes in that modern thing, you get into the numbers,
you get into the statistics, you get into the who's
and what's. But sometimes everyone's different, you know. And that's
what I love about ifs. That's what I love about
even the reiki and and things like that that I
took a heart centered therapy training, and what that is
(10:33):
is that teaches me to be in the moment with
the person there, walking with them. In ifs, we always
let whatever answer comes, we go with it. There's never
it's not. It's been a kind of interesting because, like
I say, this is the first time that he's allowed
coaches to do it. So in fact, I'm going to
be on a call today and there's going to be
five hundred people on this call and they're all coaches,
(10:55):
and coaching is used to saying, hey have you done this?
What's going on? How come you haven't done this? What's wrong?
You know, like, hey, you promise me you'll do this,
and a couple you know, we have to reteach us
and say, that's not what this is about. This is
about asking a question, getting an answer, and saying, okay,
that makes sense because everything we do honestly makes sense
(11:17):
from the path that we have walked. And when you
really embody that, it's amazing how the world just seems
a little kinder and we have a lot more patience
with ourselves and with other people, and we get to
let go of some of those those biases that we
just naturally have, which in ifs we call those parts.
(11:37):
Those are parts, So we need to understand those parts. Hey,
what's going on? And in parts work parts are always
we call them protectors. They serve a purpose because they're
there to protect us in some way, even if it
doesn't make sense, even if it's cutting, even if it's
an addiction, there's a there's a protective quality to it.
And when we go and talk to that part, it's
(11:58):
amazing what it will share, what it will but it
will explain, and it's just there's a lot of that
makes that makes sense, and so as we build a
relationship with them, then they can begin to tell us
more and more. At most of the time, some of
the ones that are bigger disruptions, we can see that
there are these moments in our past where things were
(12:19):
hard and we took on these beliefs or this way
of being that was necessary for the time. It's just trying.
It's this young, young part of us trying to do
this heavy work. And when they get unburdened, it's really
amazing to see how quickly change change can come when
we understand the WAW.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
So you used to develop the found of the wholeness network, right,
which brings together dozens of healing modalities, but we all
want to and I want to talk about that. I
want to talk about what that is, but I also
want to understand a little bit. If someone goes on
to the Wholeness network, how do they discern what they
really need? Because I feel like sometimes when you know,
(13:01):
you go to therapy or you go to you know,
anything like that, even if you go to a coach,
you know know what you need because you don't know
what you don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's true. And if that's the case, I
think there's reason to pause right there. There's just reason
to pause and recognize that we don't understand ourselves in
a way that we were hoping to. So that's step
one is that I don't have access to information within me,
(13:30):
which I think a lot of times. The number one
reason for that is because we disconnect from our bodies.
Because a long time ago, when I was thinking about
some things, and it was funny, now we talk about
these four bodies mental body, emotional body, physical body, spiritual body.
But a long time ago, I was sitting in meditation
and that idea came to me. I had lost a
bunch of weight and I was trying to understand how
(13:52):
I did it, because everybody wanted to say, how did
you do it? And it wasn't about my exercise, it
wasn't about what I ate. It was this aha moment
I had to just wrong belief that I had birthed
four kids and therefore I could not be a thin person.
That was just as simple as that. And when that
broke down, every everything changed. Like in an instant that
broke down, everything changed. And so I was trying to
(14:13):
figure out how I could explain to everybody this idea
because it because they didn't have the same belief. To them,
they were like, well, that's dumb.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So I was sitting there in meditation and I thought,
you know, everybody says I'm an emotional eater, and this
thought percolated, and I said, what if what if the
weight is in the emotional body? You know, what if
we have these bodies, what if it accumulates more than
just the physical body, and all we do is attend
the physical body, and yet we have these other bodies
(14:46):
that need to be So that set me on a
big journey of those those four bodies. But what was
interesting is in so I explored more and I realized
that the body is the communicator. That was how it
was spoken to me. The body is the communicator. And
I I remember speaking to my colleague about it and
saying that, and she says, but I have feelings, And
I says, how does it feel in your body? And
(15:08):
she went, oh, because we do, we feel things, we
understand things. We usually have a physical sensation in our
body when we're doing this, but when we have difficulties,
then we have difficult sensations in our body. So the
easiest way to, you know, to get rid of those
cut it off and cut it off, so then we
lose access to that information. So then we need to
(15:31):
start with maybe some body connection. So if we don't know,
we would start with some body connections. So learning to
meditate is is really important. Now I don't care what
kind of meditation to do. In fact, for the longest
time I was, I would sit there and people would
talk about meditating, and I'm like, that's not how I
do it. Normally, people try to get rid of their
(15:52):
thoughts during meditation. I actually will sit there and of
course my mind's running around like a you know, like
a maniac, like everybody, and then pretty soon all of
a sudden, It'll just zero in on a thought or
an idea, and I just go with it, and I
learned profound things. That was how one of the first
tools that I ever had was I was somebody said,
(16:13):
why don't you try meditating? And in this meditation ask
for a gift is what I was, you know. And
I was like, I don't know. So I sit in
my closet. You I close my eyes. My heart is
beating out of my chest because I'm in such turmoil
that if this doesn't work, you know, it's one of
those things where I don't know what I'll do. So
(16:33):
I kind of just sat there for a minute, and
all of a sudden, I all of a sudden the
scene changed and I was in this this ravine, and
there was a like I always picture it like in
the movie The Last The Last Crusade with Indiana Jones,
you know, and at the end he goes on that
long trail and he can't see anything until he throws
some sand on it and realizes it's this narrow, narrow
(16:55):
path that crosses this this long ravine. It was very
much like that, and there was it was a ways
to cross. It took it took some time. You know,
I knew I was going to be that was going
to be scary to cross that, and so the thoughts
came to my mind, well, I'll just hurry and fall
off and get it over with. Like that's the feeling
I had, and I was I was. I felt this,
(17:15):
you know, feeling of don't do that, keep going, and
so I in that meditation, you know, kind of and
probably just stared at it for a while and just
like I don't know what I'm going to do. And
then I would go back to it several times, and
over years, I would check in and I would be
a little bit further on that path, a little bit
further on that path. Then I remember feeling like I've
(17:38):
gotten through it. Now I'm in a desert, you know,
and then I would be like, okay, there's and I'd
have this feeling there's an oasis up ahead, just keep moving.
And to tell it, I felt like that that completed
at some point. But that's what kept me going, you know.
That was that first time I ever meditated, The first
tool I ever had was so profound. It's what brought
(17:58):
me here today because it just just keep going, don't
give up, don't stop. You could like that was the
feeling you could, But we really wish you wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
We wish you wouldn't. Yeah, changing the mindset, I think
is really where. You know, it's sort of funny. I'm
chuckling a little bit in my head when you had
said something about, well, you know, I've had four babies,
so therefore I have extra weight, and you know the
reality is, you know, I just turned fifty nine. I'm
not astin as. I mean, you know, I'm not obedes,
but I'm not like I was when I was nineteen.
Nor do I want to be that thin again. Right.
(18:30):
But the funny thing is is we we're talking. I
just had this conversation with someone about how you know,
we're we're not like we used to be. The bodies
aren't the same as it used to be. And I
jokingly said to this friend of mine, well, my son
is going to be twelve. He just turned twelve, actually
just turned twelve. And I said, well, you know, I said,
I don't understand he's twelve years old and I still
(18:50):
haven't lost my baby weight. You know, I mean, it's
you know, that excuse, But you know, there are a
bunch of excuses, and you know, it's getting out of
your head to get in and change, change the direction
and the path and know that you can really take
that journey. You know, some spiritual teachers will say too,
you know you are not broken, but what about those
(19:13):
who really feel it or even benefit from seeing themselves
in that way? Is there value do you think in
I want to say temporary brokenness because we don't ever
want to be there forever, But you think there's some
value in that? Or no?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Well, you know, if I was working with a client
one on one and they said I feel like it's
important to say I'm broken and I need to be fixed,
then I would sit with them and say, okay, I
will be broken with you. You know, let's be broken together.
What does that feel like? What does feeling broken make
you want to do? You know, let's really explore that feeling.
(19:48):
What sensations in our body does that bring up? And
then most of the time I'm just like, yeah, right, yeah,
that's right. What would it what would happen or what
what if we could be fixed? What would that feel like?
We can practice that as well. That's the exciting thing
about humans is that we can practice states of being,
and we have access to all of those emotions. And
(20:10):
that's the other thing too. Again, I would recognize, Okay,
there's a part of us that feels broken. Does that
feel correct? You know? Versus we're all broken, and that
helps a little bit to separate ourselves from this piece
and then we can talk to that feeling, that part
that feels broken. But we we have access to all
these emotions. And we think that we're trying to get
(20:31):
to a point where we have no quote negative emotions.
But that's kind of like I want to see only
the colors that are my favorite and nothing else, you know,
Like we are human beings here having an experience of humanity,
like being human, and so we will have all those emotions.
The thing that's the problem is is that in our
society we have decided there are good and they are bad,
(20:53):
or if there are bad, we have done something, or
if they are bad, we've got to hurry and make
that go away. I still fill that on some days.
I still feel that I have to sit with it
and say, Okay, feel what does this feel like? It'd
have to get really clear on what it feels like,
and especially like I say, in the body communicate, say
there it is in the body, Okay, is there anything
you want me to do? Or is there anything you
(21:15):
want me to say? And sometimes it's just I just
need to feel this for a minute, and the discomfort
is great. Sometimes I don't like it, but I but
by nature, emotions they shift and they move. That's one
of their major qualities is that they move and change.
If I can hold it for a little bit, you know,
and maybe I have to reach out and get help.
(21:36):
Sometimes I need someone to sit with me in that.
But if I can hold through it, then it processes out,
it expresses out, and then sometimes sometimes I've got to
go to bed and wake up the next day. It's
like that, but I hold that space for that day
that it's like, this is a you know, in some way,
this is a holy day. This one's difficult, this one's harder.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
It's funny. And I was just going to say to you, you know,
the paradox of healing is that the things that hurt
is the most are some comes to very things that
wake us up a little bit further.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
You know, It's true. It's true. And I would say,
you know, just because it's difficult and we don't like it.
Let's you know, you can acknowledge that this is really
this hurts. You know, I don't like this. I wish
it was a little bit different, you know, and instead
of saying, but it's okay, but it's okay, you know,
like really go into those emotions and especially know that
(22:26):
that's just one part, because there is that other part
that says, yeah, but there's growth here, So we listen
to both parts fully. You know, when was the first
time I felt this way? Once you get really really
clear about the feelings inside the body and what it
feels like, we can say when was the first time
I felt this, and you'll be surprised to what comes forward,
(22:48):
things that you don't expect. Sometimes it's just a small,
simple thing that's showed up in our childhood that has
created this. Yeah, and never doing that again, right, which
is great, it's like that's nice, but you need to
you know, But that younger person's trying to carry that
load and saying, we got to never do this again.
So I've got to do this, this, this, this, you know,
to make sure that doesn't happen again. That's a young
(23:10):
it's a young person. They don't know how to do that.
So a lot of times you can tell them how
you know, you can say, you know, how how old
do you think I am? And a lot of times
those parts laugh. You know. I had to Colliet the
other day and she's like, I said, just how old
did they think you are? And she said, oh, young?
And I said, well, let them know how old you are.
She was in her sixties, and she said, they're just laughing,
like are you kidding me? And so we asked, you know,
(23:31):
do you think a sixty three year old could could
handle this? And they were like, yeah, actually, okay, that
makes sense. I don't have to do it. We've got
this self that's able to do all things.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yeah. Are there limits to mindfulness?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Well? I think yeah, I think that's a good question.
I think, you know, I think we again, we're here
to have a human experience, and so some days we're
going to you know, we you know, someday we're going
to watch that show. Sometimes we're going to listen to
that music. Sometimes we're going to eat that food, and
and you know, maybe that's maybe if we are actually choosing,
(24:09):
maybe that's mindfulness. You know, I don't know, but but yeah,
I think that sometimes I think we have to. You know,
I think that people can get like there's a line
where we move into this the opposite end of the spectrum,
you know, and that's not necessarily healthy either.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Well true, and and you know that's what I was
going to say too. Is there the danger of slipping
into perfectionism?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I've known when I've gone
to conferences. You know, you're looking at maybe this is
an energy healing conference, and I see people sitting there
and they're sniffing their essential oils every three minutes. I'm thinking, Okay,
we're still not addressing the underlying problems. You know, we've
moved onto a different tool, but there's some anxiety there,
(24:55):
there's some hurt there, and we need to pause there
for a minute.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Right right, that's a potion. I mean, it's it's sort
of all encompassing. You also teach intuitive and psychic development
a little bit.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, well, I'm learning it myself. I have always been intuitive. Yeah,
I didn't know I was intuitive till my late forties.
I didn't know that little kids didn't have conversations with
their dead grandma when they were little, and you know,
talk about how they what their mom has just done
and said like, can you can you do something with
for her? She's you know, I'm taveling to my grandma
who's dead when I'm five years old. You know, like
(25:29):
this happened quite a bit. I did not know that
other people didn't do that. I just thought, you know,
I don't know. So and again my upbringing and I
was so focused on being a good mom and being
a good wife and being a good homemaker. I didn't develop.
I didn't take time to say, wow, I have some
(25:51):
of these gifts. So it's been a journey for me
to accept that. It took a long time to accept that.
It took a long time to speak it out loud.
And so it's one of those things where it, you know,
like there's just inspiration sometimes that comes things that were
our family. After my dad passed away, there was all
of his his book with all of the will and
(26:14):
the trust was missing. They had and they had tried
to find it even before my dad had passed. He's like,
I have all this information and I don't know where
it's at. And the lawyer, the attorney had stopped working
or something I can't remember. So it was just kind
of like we've got to find this paperwork, and I was,
you know, a lot of times I get woken up
in the middle of the night and I drew a
(26:35):
picture of where something lost. I wasn't sure what it was.
And then we were going to my dad's house to
kind of help clean it out, and people were talking
about this lost thing and my brother in law it
was the one who had kind of came to me
and I. So when they were talking about it, I said, Okay,
let me think of where this is. It was like
a piece of furniture that was low, that had a
scallop at the bottom and there was kind of maybe
(26:56):
books behind, and it was behind. So I walked where
it was picked it up. So here here it is.
And my family was like what which Still they still
I'm the youngest. I'm the youngest of seven kids.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And so my six siblings are just kind of like,
who who are you? You know, I was a little
extra at the end. I was surprised little at the end.
So my closest siblings six and a half years older
than me. So I was always that cute little sister.
And so they're like, what happened? Because I did? I changed?
I wasn't always this person because I didn't know, so
they were That was the first time they were like,
(27:30):
is this what you're kind of talking about? And I
think to this day they're still kind of like, I
don't what happened there, or just like pretend like that
didn't happen. It was like a little it was a
little freaky, but it was and it freaked me out too.
I was shaking.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I was like, why, Yeah, but you could have brushed
it off as a coincidence, and I think that's what
a lot of people do, right, So the intuition is
what a coincidence? I was just thinking of that or whatever,
you know, and it's not always the case. You know,
there is something else.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yes, yeah, we all have that access, we all do.
It's about tuning in and again back to the body.
It's like I can feel in my bettery whether it's
my own brain talking or whether it's something else, and
I have to that's the muscle to practice, honestly.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, speaking of the body, is there is there a
wisdom wisdom that you found in the physical that you
couldn't reach through the mind or spirit.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Alone in the physical and the physical my physical body
or physically Yeah, yeah, so the heart is like, to me,
that's like a portal. That's like a portal to heaven.
Like you can if you bring if you just take
a couple breaths. You can just take a couple of
breaths right now and just imagine dropping that all this.
First of all, you got to get noticed all the
stuff that's going in your brain, like it's actually buzzing,
(28:42):
you know, and you can bring that sensation down onto
the heart and you just feel kind of this light light,
and then you can ask your heart questions. I have
a colleague, she calls it the Google. She's like, it's
better than Google. You can ask a question like what
is best for me? What should I do right now?
And really understanding again back to those senses, you know,
(29:05):
am I going to hear it? Am I going to
see it? Maybe a visual show up? Maybe I'll hear
like a word, maybe I will feel something in my body,
and then we have to ask again, So tell me more,
you know, tell me where. We got to stick with
it for a little bit, maybe to practice, but the
wisdom can come that fit that heart, you know, whether
(29:25):
it's our heart physically, but it's also that heart chakra
which is the bridge between all the spiritual and the
physical chakras, and so there's there's a power there. You know.
We can also on the hold on this network. One
of our guides is her name's Christine Lange, and she
just has a book out that says, you know, ask
your spirit and she I was looking to see if
(29:47):
I had it around, but you know, and she talks
about you know, your spirit has answers for you. You
can learn to talk to your own spirit and say
what do I need? And when you build that muscle,
you can it's there, which again you would probably call
that and I FS that biggest self. You know, it's
the same same concept. Different vocabulary. Vocabulary gets us tripped
(30:07):
up a lot when you're first starting out. That vocabulary
can get your tripped up because there's so many words,
like you'll you'll say, like I remember feeling the idea
of duality and there was like, no, we don't want dualistic. Well, well,
the duality you know, it's like if you actually look
it up, it's another paradox. It's it's both and And
so we get confused with don't don't get stuck on
the on the vocabulary. Everybody's got a different word, and
(30:29):
we got to feel it. That's why we've got to
feel it in our bodies more than our brains.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
I think you're absolutely right, and don't get discouraged if
you're not getting it the first or second time. It
really you will start to understand not just the way
it feels, but how spirit communicates with you. It's because
we're all different, right, So you receive what you receive
and how I receive might be entirely different. And you know,
you say, am I feeling it? Thinking and knowing it?
(30:54):
But sometimes it's a little bit of each and it's
sort of like being a jigsaw puzzle together to make
get fit and understand what the message is that's that's coming.
So don't don't give up on that, will It is
a little nuanced, Yeah, it is, use any language at all.
I mean, I don't sit there, well this reality, you know,
I don't any of that, you know, yep, don't get
(31:15):
caught up in it.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah. I love one of the tools. I love. I
love the enneagram. Sometimes that's helpful because people understand a
little bit more about themselves. And in the enneagram it's
divided into a trine and there's people that are in
the body trying. There's people that are in the feelings trying,
and there's people that are in the mind trying, and
that's helpful sometimes because there's a lot of it's really
difficult for people that are very mind based to feel
(31:38):
like they can come into this world because everybody's like,
don't pay attention to your mind, don't pay attention. But
that doesn't work. They are mind based, they are going
to it's going to process a little differently for them,
and they've got to practice and figure out where how
that works. But it might be probably be very visual
things like that, so you can't you know, the mind
(31:58):
is not bad, we just need to bring in the
other thing. So it's like, okay, here's this thought. Okay,
how do I feel about that thought? What does that
thought feel like in my body? And then the spiritual
body is all about connection and meaning. How is that
meaningful for me? Or what meaning does that have for me?
Because you'll get like a picture and it's not going
to feel the same for everybody. It's not going to
(32:19):
feel the same for everybody. So how does that mean
for me? What is that? What is that trying to
say to me? And you can think it, you can
think through it and then check it with those other bodies.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah, and I find too. And I don't know if
if you can understand this either, but it's almost like
sometimes the less you think, the better it's just coming.
And what's what's the first thing that kind of like
how did it first make you feel? As if you
start thinking, then your brain's in the way and things
kind of go awry, you know, because what I see
(32:53):
is not necessarily what you see, you think, and so
you just have to kind of you know, sometimes you
just can't get your head in it too much. We
just talked about people who are head based, and I
totally get that. Yeah, yeah, I have always been that
way a little bit. It took me so long to
kind of open up because I was, I say, kind
of a healthy skeptic. I was a good Yeah, I believed,
but I needed it to be proven to me. Just
(33:16):
just just a quick question on someone, you know someone,
So someone's listening to this and they are living with
a narcissist or they're in some kind of a toxic dynamic,
what do you think is the first philosophical shift that
they might need to make, not just for their own survival,
but for reclaiming their wholeness.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Number one is sometimes it is them and not us.
You know, we're always trying to do our own work,
which is which is good, you know, but sometimes that
gets us tripped up because it's like, well, maybe if
I do this, you know, to understand the dynamic of
the relationship. So many people they don't like, you know,
to use that word a narcissist. You know, they're like, well,
I don't want to call them that I know, and
it's like, well, I don't want to call them anything.
(33:55):
It's not about calling it. It's about understanding the dynamic.
And when we understand the dynamic of a really it's
very predictable. And so when we know that dynamic, then
we can start to work on ourselves. We have to
understand the dynamic of what we're working with. Because even
my husband in his therapy one day, he says, I
think I might be a little narcissistic or narcissistic tendencies,
(34:17):
and the therapist is kind of nodded because it wasn't
because he's this diagnosed narcissist. That's one thing that gets struggles.
There is a diagnosis. But because he was so wounded.
He was just focused on his own self. He couldn't
put himself in somebody else's perspective because he was in
such pain inside himself. So understand, you know. So even
(34:38):
still I'm still married to him, I still love him,
but we had to understand that dynamic for a time
that it was like, he is so self focused that
I can't expect him to assume my position. He can't
for a minute. So more therapy came and that changed,
But for that minute, I mean, it was him that
kind of said I think I'm that way, and that
started to shift things. But yeah, it's sometimes it's them,
(34:59):
sometimes it's not us. And most of the time, when
you're with a narcissist, you're the most empathic person, so
you will try to fix yourself to support the other person.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
It's so funny you say that, because my whole life
I am an EmPATH, and the whole life I was
I don't want to say attracted in a romantic way,
but just sort of like magnetically attracted it felt to
people who needed to be fixed by Yeah, this is
all I thought. They I hate to fix these people,
and I didn't even realize I was doing it until
(35:29):
I look back years later and I don't want to.
I don't need to do that. That's not right. Yeah,
before we wrap up, is there a story or a
thought you'd love to leave with our listeners.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Well, I just wanted to popped in when we were
talking about, you know, receiving that stuff in the flow
and things like that. So one time I was I
dared to put out like a free webinar where I
was going to practice my intuitiveness. You know. I was like,
that was really scary. And a lady you know, got
on and and she I immediately started to see some visuals.
(36:05):
And what happened was is I begin to saw what
I first saw as I saw a little girl reaching
up and holding the hand of her mom. And then
and my brain wanted to think about what that meant,
you know, I wanted to go into what this means
versus just saying it, and so I kind of and
then it moved on to the next thing, and I
saw this little doll, and so I said, okay, I
(36:26):
see there's like a doll. And she was like, oh
my gosh, my mom. She collected dolls, you know, she
collected dolls. And and we went off on this tangent,
but it was and when she described the dolls, it
looked different than the doll I had seen. And so
I got off the call and we went on a
bike ride, and I just thought, okay. I was like
(36:47):
half praying, half asking my guides, half talking to myself,
you know, saying, okay, listen, if I'm going to do this,
I need to know if like, well, it was that right,
you know. It was the first time I had done
it with somebody, just out there on with somebody I
didn't know, And so I said, I need to know
if this is my path, will you show me a
(37:08):
blue butterfly? You know, blue butterfly, that's my message. Let's go.
So we went on this bike ride. I saw the
color blue that I was looking for a thousand places,
but never a butterfly, and my heart would just be beating.
I'm like, oh no, this is what am I going
to do? Is that supposed to? You know whatever. We
went on a different path that we usually go, and
(37:29):
as we came around the court, you know, we're almost home,
I thought, is this is that the lesson is to like,
you know, like to not interpret it, you know, kind
of this idea of like, are you trying to show
me something? And that second I turned, there's a blue
butterfly that's turned right there. So I learned a lesson
not to interpret, but to just say what I saw.
(37:50):
Come to find out, I talked to the woman later
her sister had passed, was passed and her mom and
her sister had a missing arm, which I didn't know,
So that was the whole reaching. She was able to
reach up and hold hands with her mom now that
she wouldn't have been able to do in physical form.
And so there were deep messages there that I didn't
(38:11):
get because I was trying to find the meaning in myself.
I was trying to logic it and figure it out.
So that was a really good lesson to learn to
just great lesson, let it, let it be, just let
the answers come instead of trying to interpret them.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
But it's so easy to do it, is it's difficult
not to do it? Eh?
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yeah? Actually, yeah, that's what that's what I read.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
You're right, it's true, it's true. Thank you so much, Michelle.
I appreciate you being here. And if you all want
to dive a little deeper into Michelle's world, check out
the Wholeness Network. Is it the Wholeness Network dot Yes.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
The Wholenessnetwork dot com. Yep.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
And here's a special gift. Use code michelleme as you
can see at the screen m E C H E
l l E for two months free access to the
Wholeness Library, packed with wisdom, meditations, and practical tools help
you feel more whole every day. And if you enjoyed
this conversation, please share it with someone who might need
a little hope or a fresh start. And don't forget
(39:08):
to subscribe, leave a review, and join us next week
for more stories or transformation on the Enlightened Life podcast.
Till then, healing is possible, purpose is real, and wholeness
is available to every one of us, even if it
looks a little messy along the way. We'll see you
next time.
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