January 20, 2025 • 34 mins
For many, fighting for environmental justice means pushing polluters to stop poisoning our air and water. It means shutting down non-compliant factories and industrial facilities that refuse to follow the law. However, environmental justice issues can persist long after these facilities shut down or stop polluting. It's called "legacy environmental (in)justice", where the pollution of the past continues to impact our present. Not much has been said on this, but it's something that we need to discuss and confront wherever we see it.
On this episode, we begin our discussion about legacy environmental justice with Savannah Domenech, a Senior majoring in Environmental Management at Ohio Wesleyan University in Delaware, Ohio. (And she promised to stay with us for several episodes on this topic.)
So let's get into it!
Resources:
A Primer on Legacy Pollution - PBS
Legacy Pollution and Health - University of Wisconsin
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen!
On this episode, we begin our discussion about legacy environmental justice with Savannah Domenech, a Senior majoring in Environmental Management at Ohio Wesleyan University in Delaware, Ohio. (And she promised to stay with us for several episodes on this topic.)
So let's get into it!
Resources:
A Primer on Legacy Pollution - PBS
Legacy Pollution and Health - University of Wisconsin
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for joining me.
It's a new year, and so we have a new
series that we're going to work through. Because I got
an email. I love responding to emails. I love when
listeners reach back out and tell me they have ideas,
tell me they have topics that they want to discuss,
(00:21):
and I cannot wait to engage them on those topics
and continue to move the conversation forward. And so I
got an email from a young lady, Savannah Dominic. She
attends Ohio Wesleyan University, and she told me that she
wants to talk and to interact around this topic of
(00:48):
legacy environmental justice. Legacy environmental justice. I hadn't thought about it.
I hadn't really even thought through what it could, what
it even means, or what it look like or how
it looks on the ground. But she was telling me
she's from Rochester, New York, and they had lots of
(01:08):
industrial facilities. There are lots of things happening. And what
she was trying to let me get me to understand
was that even after these facilities shut down, stop polluting,
stop impacting directly in these communities in terms of their
environmental pollution and in terms of all the ways that
(01:28):
they would pollute the environment. She said, they're still lingering
persistent environmental justice issues after facility is gone. And I said,
that is really interesting. I had not even considered that,
because I've always been of the mindset that we're trying
to get these polluters to stop polluting or to shut
(01:49):
down operations so that we can remove the injustices that
are taking place. She was telling me that's true, but
there are impacts even after they stop. And so I said, look,
you have to come on the podcast. We have to
talk about it, because I don't know how to think
(02:10):
about these things. And so she was very kind, very gracious.
She said, I will come on do a series of
episodes to talk about it. And I told her, I said, look,
we can go as long as you want, talk about
as much as you want, how you want to talk
about it, because I want all of you listening to
hear the story from her and to get her perspective
(02:33):
and to get her view on what it looks like
to experience and to be exposed to legacy environmental injustice.
And so I am so excited because we've been recording
over the Christmas break during the New Year, and so
this episode is the first of very many episodes about
(02:56):
legacy environmental justice with Savannah Dominic, and so I hope
you really enjoy this episode. They're gonna be coming in succession,
went after another. I'm not sure how long it's gonna
take to talk about this stuff, but we're gonna keep
talking about it until she's done talking and I'm done
asking questions. So without further ado, please enjoy this first
(03:20):
episode in a series of episodes about legacy environmental justice
with Savannah Dominic of Ohio Wesleyan University.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Enjoy.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
Doctor Leslie's Joseph. Thank you so much for joining us.
And I'm saying us because I have a very special
special guest with me today. Savannah's Dominic is with us
and we are going to be talking about legacy environmental
justice and I cannot wait to get into this conversation. Savannah,
(04:18):
thank you so much for being here with us.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Thank you so much for having me on this podcast.
Doctor Joseph, Hey.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
We're glad you're here and we can't wait to talk
about all of the things. So, for those of you listening,
I got an email from Savannah about a month ago
with some really interesting topics that Savannah wanted to talk about,
and so I just wanted to get Savannah floor and
we're going to talk about all kinds of different things.
But the overarching idea is legacy environmental justice. And I
(04:52):
was struck by this topic because in most environmental justice circles,
the idea is you want to get rid of the facilities,
you want to remove the polluting factories, and you want
to try to eliminate any harmful activities happening in your community.
But what Savannah was sharing with me was that even
(05:13):
after that's done, there's a legacy of environmental in justice
that continues beyond the life of that facility or beyond
the life of that factory. And so I wanted Savannah
to come here and tell us about it. And so
Savannah is here and I'm so glad. So before we
get started, Savannah, tell us who you are, where you're from,
(05:35):
and why this topic is something that you really want
to talk about on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Oh shoot, definitely. So my name is Savannah dominic J.
As you mentioned earlier. I'm from Rochester, New York. I
waked up talk a bit more later in the state
of New York. It's actually six hours from New York City,
so not from the New York City area. And ultimately
I go to school at Ohio Waking University. But the
reason I thought about this topic and why it's so
(05:59):
important to me is so originally I was trying to
figure out, like oftentimes we so much hear about like
the injustice is out there, it's over that way, but
right in reality, the injustice is also right here in
your own backyard too. So I wanted to figure out
where is the injustice in my hometown because oftentimes we
think about like the kids off Satan Gabriel, Louisiana, Flint, Michigan.
(06:21):
It's all out there, but what about here at home?
So originally I started looking at the factory downtown near
my home, which is actually Xerox, not Kodak should be
talking about later on this podcast. I could actually bite
to the Zerox manufacturing plant if I had a bike still,
but that's besides the point. And so I thought about
Xerox and I was like, I know they had like
(06:43):
super fun issues, like I for if to build a
church over there, and the church try to get all
this people work done to make sure you know, they
were building on pouted ground. But ultimately I decided to
go with a different facility, which is Kodak to talk
about later, just because I could not honestly find much
(07:04):
on Zerox. It was just really hard to find anything.
But on Kodak there was hudos and udos and udos
and information. And also like everybody in the town knows
about codec. You can't not know about it if you
live in Rochester and you grew up with any period
of time. It is so deeply ingrained in its history
and also in ex pollution. So I had to go, yeah,
(07:25):
even though Xerox is, you know, we are close to me.
For those who don't know, xeros are printing company used
to be really built back in the like I feel
like the Nine Hees was like, oh, go go xerox
that for me, or like, go print that for me.
But I said to go, hmm, what about this other
big thing too? And the difference is also when it
comes to legacy environmental justice. The Xerox plant is still there.
(07:48):
It's still you know, make an x printer products, So
it's not truly legacy in the point that it's you know,
the factory has shut down, it's still going, it's thriving
along even though it's not doing great. Kodak on the
other hand, Kodak in January of twenty twelve, that factory
in terms of Kodak at least, it is just it's
(08:11):
not really functioning it's original purpose anymore. So ultimately, that
is why I chose Kodak for its legacy environmental justice issue,
which would be talking about today on the podcasts.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Nice Nice Absolutely so. Apparently in Rochester, New York, where
you're from, there's a lot of factories, a lot of
industrial activity. It feels like it's the kind of place
that's inundated with these kind of polluting industries. Is that
the case or is it just these two places? And
that's kind of all that you see is are these
(08:45):
two locations Xerox and Kodak. Are they kind of over
running Rochester with pollution and those kind of things? And
do the people that live there experience that in different ways?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So I guess the first thing I would say is,
so it's not just Xerox Codec. In addition, there's also Bauschanlam,
which makes like eyeglass stuff, if you're familiar with them,
That was the other Those are the big three now truthfully,
others still overrunning this town with pollution. My ultimate answer
to that in essentially they no. Bauschan Lam was recently
(09:18):
bought a few years ago, and as a result, most
of the manufacturing has moved out of here. Codec, as
I mentioned earlier, went bankrupt. Some of the extens you know,
they had their spin offs, but most of it it's
done xerox. Most of the buildings were actually sold. There's
really not much more. Printers going out of Zerotic had
(09:39):
tons of layoffs in the recent years. So I would
say Rochester at one point I think was overrun with pollution.
But we're getting to the point where it's just these
companies are just fading away, but the effects of them
are not fading away.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
So let's talk about those. Let's talk about those effects then.
So how would you define or describe this idea of
legacy environmental justice and legacy environmental injustice and what elements
would you see that would help you understand. Okay, that's
what I'm saying, that's what I'm experiencing that's what we're
(10:13):
observing here. When I look at Rochester, New York, or
any of these other places that you mentioned, how would
you describe that?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, so I would describe legacy environmental justice as essentially
considering the leftover pollution that is left in these communities,
and then also looking at I mentioned a of these factories,
considering the effects of this de industrialization that it has
on the town as well as the potential for urban decay.
(10:42):
Essentially a legacy environmental justice. The big difference between, like,
if you will, like the regular environmental justice and the
legacy environmental juice is that environmental justice is more about
the active the active pollution, the active jumping, the active
what have you that needs to be stopped. Legacy environmental
(11:02):
justice the pollution through the most part of the active stuff.
It has stopped. The smoke stactor is still not, you know,
billowing out all their chloride and all the types of
junk that we don't want the air. But the effects
are still there. And in addition, and the social effects
are still there. The economic effects are there, as they
alluded to earlier, the environmental effects are there. And then
(11:25):
also I would say governmental whine a lot of these
communities do not have a good say in what is
being happening in the community.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Interesting. Interesting, So thinking about legacy environmental justice, now, the
idea would be that even though a facility is no
longer actively polluting, actively dumping, there remains after that facility
is gone. I guess you would says, would it be
residual or kind of lingering or kind of you know,
(11:57):
baseline types of environmental pollute that still has an impact
on people that live there even though that active pollution
is no longer taking place. And I guess then the
idea would be that shutting down a facility isn't enough
because although you're not seeing any active pollution, you're still
(12:22):
experiencing the impacts of what was previously done even though
that facility is no longer there. So can you talk about,
you know, what types of lingering effects you would see
a from a legacy environment just as perspective, and what
kinds of issues could still be ongoing even though this
(12:46):
facility is no longer there actively polluting our environment.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, definitely, And I really like that you use the
word lingering because there's just s staying there. So, for example,
when I think about it, so even though I mentioned
like Flint, Michigan earlier. So in nineteen seventy eight, the
General Motors Plant shut down. They use lots of lead
in their products, right because car pink hair lead, car
gasoline hair lead, and batteries and backs still have you know,
(13:13):
the lead acid batteries today, and then would the General
Motors can't dump all their weight, so out of it
the Flint River, Flint River got really contaminated. And now
I'm not saying that the lead in the Flint River
is the reason why Flint's water is is solely the reason,
because Flints water is you know, contaminated with lead today,
but it definitely continues to it. When they switched from
(13:34):
you know, the Detroit River to the Flint River from Flint, Michigan,
Flint River people was nasty, like disgrusting. Why was it
distrusting because the General Motors Plant made it distrusting. And
so I think that's an interesting connection that we can
still see these effects. It's not just oh, five years
down the road, oh it's all fixed now. We can
(13:55):
see these effects, you know, you know, like across the generations.
And then also other effects it could be such as
like if you can calminate the soil. Oftentimes I would
see the air pollution has you know, air pollution, the
air moves along its path, but soil like pollution, like
(14:15):
if you pollute the groundwater, Like if you go to
pollute the soil, for example, a lot of like maybe
water will premeated through the soil get into the groundwater
agrafer and like, well, I will admit Rochester, New York,
is typically on city water. If you go further out
into like the more like rural areas were known through
our cows, apparently you have a fair light factory coming in,
(14:37):
but exercides the point a lot of people have well water,
so now the groundwater is contaminated.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Interesting, so soil groundwater. In the case of Flint, Michigan,
the actual river itself kind of continues to be impacted
by that pollution, even though those factories shut down. You know,
it's interesting. We'll talk about this later. Obviously, there's so
much to get into. But there's the economics, and then
(15:04):
there's the environmental and then there's the kind of social
aspects of it. And so there has been a lot
of discussion in the news and over the last few
I guess presidential cycles about manufacturing where it's going, and
how we can bring jobs back, and how we can
have the kind of active manufacturing sector that we've once
(15:24):
had back in the seventies and eighties and maybe even
before then. And so it's interesting because I don't know
if people are aware of the impacts that these facilities
have had while they were there and currently have even
though they're no longer operating or in existence. And so
it sounds like Rochester, New York, was one of those
(15:46):
industrial centers where they had a lot of industrial activity,
a lot of growth in terms of their productivity when
they're producing products, and people like to go there to
set up their factories, set their facilities and with whatever
benefits seemed to come to the city. One thing we
(16:06):
can't deny is that these justice issues were problems then
and their problems now. And so when you, I don't
know if you've been back home or how much time
you spend in Rochester, I would love to hear you
talk about what life is like there now. So you know,
there was a Kodak facility there, there was a Xerox
(16:28):
facility there, washing loan has sold been taken over, and
you know, lots of things are different than they were before,
and so can you kind of help us understand what
life would be like. You said there was rural areas
where there's lots of cows, and I guess it's a
city center maybe or an urban area that's more industrial.
(16:48):
And so what is it like in Rochester now?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, so I guess there's the different areas of Rochester.
So two areas that are very prominent of Rochester is
so we have two major college campuses. They're huge, they're sprawling,
so the Rochester Institute of Technology in the University of Rochester.
So those are there only those cities, if you will,
kind of within Rochester, there wereth private institutions. I mean
(17:15):
they're nice places to be however, like if you go
to like the Kodak Park community, but the area surrounding
the Codec manufacturing plant, there's no denying that is just
it's just not a nice area to be in. You
can see on the news, you know, the cops are
constantly there because somebody got shot again. It's just a
lot of old rundown buildings. It's just it's just not
(17:37):
the nicest neighborhood, shall we say. Regarding Xerox, if you
go look at the Xerox plant. The Zero stans actually
pretty much kind of in the middle of I wouldn't
say nowhere, but there's not a ton of houses around
it onlike Kodak Park, but the houses that are nearby
it are actually low income housing projects. So a lot
of people are like, I don't really want to go
down that way. And then you you kind of balance
(18:02):
this with the the up and coming gentrification. Really, a
gentrification has to like the giant like high rise buildings
that are way too expensive. Anybody a forced to live
in there. So we have like the the a't so
nice areas of art students. Then we have like they
be like, ah, we are young, what have ex college
students come live in there? We have our we have
(18:24):
our neighborhood of the arts, you know, we have a
cute little stores. So it's a balance, I would say,
And I think you can once you really start the
cross those neighborhood lines, you can really start seeing Okay,
I'm in a different like city city neighborhood now, because
just how the houses looked, how they maintained and in
a sense were Rochester isn't home to any of these,
(18:44):
you know, I would say like big, you know your
zero actors, your code actually about and lands in the world.
It's not home. Put up a bunch of startups who are,
guess what, run by college students. So in a way,
it's kind of like the college students starts taking over,
which depends who you add. Of course, the schools are
trail that they're you know, they're alumni are doing great
things for them and making them lots of money for
(19:05):
you know, donations and stuff. And you have people that
are like, I don't like They're like, Okay, the college
students are here, that's fine, but I don't want them
sucking their soul out of my neighborhood and my community.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Oh that's interesting. It's the college students doing it and
the alumni doing it. They make sure I understand it.
So when you talk about the different you talk about
crossing neighborhood lines, and you can see the difference when
you cross those lines. Are those lines? Are they so
when you cross this line into a really run down neighborhood,
(19:37):
is that where the plant used to be in that neighborhood?
And when you come back to where it's a nicer
part of town, is that a place that was free
from these facilities or is there no correlation between the two.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I would say there is correlation. So the Kodac plant
is first of all, it's huge, so it's not four
miles long. So we got a bunch of neighborhoods to
the east, to the west of it, to the north
of it, and to the south of it. The neighborhoods
to the east of it. Those are the neighborhoods that
it's like, yeah, you know, I'm not doing so hot.
(20:10):
And then right after those neighborhoods, there's a river, the
Genesee River, that divides the town, and then on the
east side of that Genesee River that's where the university
is at. So it's kind of like they pour over
the river. I feel the death Street and footbridge you
can cross if you know you can, you can literally
cross the line between the neighborhoods and across to the
river and there you go. You're in the community. Now.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Interesting. Interesting is there a sense, at least from maybe
the college students university perspective that these kind of run
down areas are potential opportunities for them to expand or
to redevelop or to operate in service of the university, says,
(20:53):
because I know for a lot of university systems. I
don't know how big Rochester is in terms of universities,
but I know here in South Carolina, you know other
places I went to school in Baltimore Johns Hopkins, there
was a sense in which if you're in a location
that has these kinds of rundown areas, these kinds of
dilapidated homes and businesses, oh, there's an opportunity there for
(21:16):
us to expand, to develop more of our campus into
those areas, or maybe housing for our students, or restaurants
and you know, plazas that we can kind of sell
to our students as ways of reimagining what this city
or what this area could look like. Any of that happening,
(21:37):
because I could imagine if college students are running the town,
building businesses, you know what you said before, gentrifying and
creating these types of environments that only certain people can
live in. I wonder how far they're trying to take it.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, definitely. So for example, I do know that, like
I can speak for the University of Rochester on this
case that I don't know, there's students and faculty. They're
moving in to these communities that were like the west
of the Kodak manufacturing decipitly, like they're crossing the river.
They're going west. The school and the City of Rochester
government itself with the mayor and everything, they're giving home
(22:12):
ownership brands or like renting brands to these students so
they can go live in these communities. But the problem
is these students, at least from what I understand, is
they're not put in giving back to the community and
you know the page. They're not patronizing the local restaurants.
They're not supporting them. You know, they're going back to
the campus to go eat or something. They're going to
the quote unquote nicer neighborhoods to do. So it'scentially all
(22:34):
the really doing is living in these communities, and the
communities are like well, a lot of these people, with
the exception of maybe the faculty members, the students are
single for the most part. They're not family. You got
you know, you got your six students in one house,
and they're not they're not really like they want families
in the Typically they've been female family neighborhoods. So in
a sense, there's that, and then also for the Rochester
(22:58):
Institute of Technology, they're kind of they actually actually drained
a swamp to build it. So honestly, there's not many
housing developments around there, but they recently did expand one
of the housing opportunities to the downtown city at Rochester.
They took over the old the old Xerox headquarters I
actually and turned it into I do them for the
students there you go, so, hey, no, I got it.
(23:20):
That happens.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
It happens a lot. I mean, how does your family
feel about how things are changing in Rochester? Do they
have any concerns or are they okay? Do they like
what they're seeing or are they concerned about the direction
things are going in? Or do they not have an opinion?
What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
To be honest, I really I really don't think that
there's much of an opinion. I mean, I think one
thing that they're happy about is so recently the Rochester
City School DRIFTID is known for being horrendous in the
graduation right. So however, they greatly improved. I think it
was like seven years ago only forty one percent of
students were graduating on time. Now we're up to like
(23:59):
seventy which is I mean, it's still not like fantastic,
but it's a lot better than forty one percent or
what have you. So there's sentence that's like, oh, okay,
we like that, you know, the schools are improving, But
I don't know how much of that is like due
to COVID. Let's just move everybody through, because there was
definitely a lot of that around here. But honestly, I mean,
(24:19):
I think you're like, honest, you might have I hear
them compain about taxes. It's so expensive taxes.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Nobody likes taxes. Nobody likes taxes, especially if you believe
that your taxes aren't actually helping your living situation improve
or your community get better. And so I'm not sure
they've taken it that far, but I mean, like people
just don't want to pay taxes. It's fine. One day
you're gonna get a job and you're going to see
(24:49):
those lines come off of your check and you're going
to have the top number. Then all the taxes come
out and you're going to say, what in the world
is going on with my check? I need more money
and things are expensive, and I don't know what we're doing.
And so that's no discussion for another day. That's fine,
because I didn't want to get a sense of this community.
(25:10):
You know, a lot of these types of environmental justice
issues happen in very particular types of communities, particular areas,
whether they be very working class, different immigrant communities, low
income minority populations, like it's important to think about the
(25:32):
kind of context that these things are happening in. And
so I don't know much about Rochester obviously. I mean,
we all know New York City. There's always jokes about
the different islands, Long Islands, that island, all these different places.
But how would you describe the community that is Rochester
and the people that live there and the people that
(25:54):
not just from the university that are kind of sticking around,
but like the kind of I guess you could say
the legacy communities that existed in Rochester? Are these working
class families? Are these upper class? Lower class? Is a
mix in between the two? Are there different ethnicities, any
major immigrant populations that live there? How would you describe it?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yeah? How would I That's a good question. So I
think I would describe it as so we don't call
it like at the city. I would definitely say it's
majority it's lower income. Like of course there's your upper
usually you know, you're you know, your more wealthy areas,
but it's majority lower income. And then especially in the
recent years, you've had lots of people, you know, urban
sprawl has been a big thing. So who's the people
(26:39):
who are getting left behind? Typically are you know, the
minority communities who cannot you know, afford to you know,
low urban sprawl out because of you know, what reasons
have you In addition, one community is a very sizeable
Rochester is the deaf community. So we have a very
large death population here. We even have the National Technology
Technological Institute for their death years. Well, so that's a
(27:01):
huge population as well. A lot of them, do my
understanding live in the city. That yeah. And then also
with a lot of immigrant population coming in as well.
For example, in recent years we had another large number
of like Nepali immigrants coming in. Now we're on to
Ukrainian immigrants, Afghanistan immigrants, and those are just the ones
(27:25):
I know. So like for example, my father volunteers to like,
you know, help teach them English, so those are he
teaches them like he teaches like you know afgh Any woman,
Ukrainian women English are actually reason like I know that
those are like people coming in prominently because he's teaching
on a weekly basis, you know, conversational English. But I'm
sure there are other like immigrants groups coming in as well,
(27:47):
and typically they're getting put in, you know, these houses
which my father has visited samodome, you know, taken to
like you know, their picture appointment so like and like
you know, get their driver's license or what have you.
And he's like, exists not really in a nice neighborhood.
The house is falling apart, refrigergated. That's like it's from
you know, the eighties. It's not like a nice place
to be, which I mean, obviously I'm not sure who
(28:10):
you know exactly we strattling these newcomers, but they're being
put in the not so nice areas of the city.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
That is really interesting. So how would you describe the
reception of these immigrant populations from these different places. I know,
I'm sure you know this too. Immigration is a big
hot topic across the country, and a lot of the
concern is this idea of integrating these different immigrant communities,
(28:37):
these different populations into an existing culture, whatever that culture
may be. So for instance, just full disclosure. So my
family's Haitian. And so this past electionsc there was a
big discussion about Haitian populations living in America. So I
don't know if you saw the presdential debate where where
(29:01):
the I guess President elect talked about immigrants in Springfield,
Ohio eating cats and dogs and this idea that they
weren't able to be integrated well into that community in Ohio.
They were Haitian immigrants he was talking about. And I
wonder if the city of Rochester, if your dad even
has seen or has he experienced, you know, the ways
(29:25):
in which they've been brought over kind of integrated in.
I'm assuming they're working, they find housing, they're going to
the grocery store, they're going to the doctor's office or
in the library. Probably, Like what has that been like
for the city from your perspective, and is there anything
(29:45):
that you wish was different about how they've been received
and integrated into your community?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Definitely, So I feel like in a termse of how
they didn't received given that like just say graphic location
of where they're coming from, people are more open to
where people like oh, I see, you know, the tragedy
that's occurring, you know, in their home country. So it's
like they're more like, eh, you know, it's not like
I know, like for example, there's a lot of like
(30:15):
complaints to it. It's like wow, and its sound bad,
like at least you're not Mexicans. You know, we don't
want the Mexicans. But you know what the Ukrainians do
in Afghanistan, people they're okay, you know, right, And then
like the big problem is schooling. So a lot of
them obviously they don't come here speaking English. And yes,
you know, they teach English as a second language or
(30:37):
third language in the city schools, but like classes have
like thirty kids and they don't all speak like one language.
We got friends who work in like the city school
which is they're teaching kids, and it's like, okay, well
this one speaks Spanish, this one speaks you know, Ukrainian,
this one speaks Pharsei, this one speaks that one. It's
like you have all these resources, is there really under resourced?
(31:00):
Be quite honest, So these kids are really struggling trying
to like learn English and then regarding like jobs. For example,
my father tutors want when she should should be a
doctor if she was back in her home country, but
right now she's like, you know, just doing something that's like,
honestly our four un world could do just give them
(31:20):
the right training because because you don't speak the language,
it's like, wow, we don't really have anything for you,
or it's like your credentials don't work here. You might
you know, have all the credentials you want, but we
don't accept them kind of things. But overall, I would
say there is there is, there is like acceptance, but
it's kind of like, yeah, I'm not gonna like go
(31:44):
out of my way to like, you know, make make
make sure you're feeling at home kind of thing. It's
just like I'm not gonna like say that like spreading
medicais with eating cats and dogs if they were in Springfield, Ohio.
But it's not like You're gonna be my best friend
and I want you know, you on my wing and
make sure that both you and you know your kids,
did you grow your kids with you are going to
(32:05):
have you know, a good life here.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Oh man, Well that's good information to know because all
of that plays into and helps us see more clearly
what kind of community it's in existence with this legacy
environmental justice taking place or injustice taking place, I should say.
And so you know we're running up on our time.
(32:28):
I don't want to hold you too long. We have
so many things to talk about, and for our listeners,
let me just tell you that there's going to be
multiple episodes in this series of discussions about legacy environmental justice.
I think we're going to talk about Kodak more specifically,
because they're the ones that have really made an imprint
on this community, and we're going to talk about some
(32:50):
of the different issues that relate to that. And Samana's
going to tell me more about his hometown and the
people that live there. And it's going to be a
great series of episodes, and so please stay tuned before
we go. Is there anything else you want to share
with us about the good city of Rochester or just
(33:11):
your desire to look into this issue more closely.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I think it's just important to keep in mind the
scale and that this is not only an issue in Rochester,
New York, but it is an issue that can be
found throughout the United States and throughout the world as well.
So I would ultimately really encourage people like the reason
I have looked into this issue so much is because
it's here in my backyard. What issues, as you, the listener,
(33:36):
what issues are in your backyard? What issues can you
educate yourself more about and then ultimately take steps to
you know, moving towards more environmental justice in these communities.
I guess that'd be my challenge to the listeners, see
see what can your own you know, your own backyard,
your city, or even like where your work. So I'm
(33:57):
sure there's something you just you just.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Have to look mm hmm, absolutely absolutely so thank you, Savannah.
I can't wait to our next conversation. I can't wait
to get more into this, but for now, you have
been listening to the Environmental Justice Lab. I'm doctor Joseph.
That's Savannah, and we will see you next time. Take care,
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for joining me.
It's a new year, and so we have a new
series that we're going to work through. Because I got
an email. I love responding to emails. I love when
listeners reach back out and tell me they have ideas,
tell me they have topics that they want to discuss,
(00:21):
and I cannot wait to engage them on those topics
and continue to move the conversation forward. And so I
got an email from a young lady, Savannah Dominic. She
attends Ohio Wesleyan University, and she told me that she
wants to talk and to interact around this topic of
(00:48):
legacy environmental justice. Legacy environmental justice. I hadn't thought about it.
I hadn't really even thought through what it could, what
it even means, or what it look like or how
it looks on the ground. But she was telling me
she's from Rochester, New York, and they had lots of
(01:08):
industrial facilities. There are lots of things happening. And what
she was trying to let me get me to understand
was that even after these facilities shut down, stop polluting,
stop impacting directly in these communities in terms of their
environmental pollution and in terms of all the ways that
(01:28):
they would pollute the environment. She said, they're still lingering
persistent environmental justice issues after facility is gone. And I said,
that is really interesting. I had not even considered that,
because I've always been of the mindset that we're trying
to get these polluters to stop polluting or to shut
(01:49):
down operations so that we can remove the injustices that
are taking place. She was telling me that's true, but
there are impacts even after they stop. And so I said, look,
you have to come on the podcast. We have to
talk about it, because I don't know how to think
(02:10):
about these things. And so she was very kind, very gracious.
She said, I will come on do a series of
episodes to talk about it. And I told her, I said, look,
we can go as long as you want, talk about
as much as you want, how you want to talk
about it, because I want all of you listening to
hear the story from her and to get her perspective
(02:33):
and to get her view on what it looks like
to experience and to be exposed to legacy environmental injustice.
And so I am so excited because we've been recording
over the Christmas break during the New Year, and so
this episode is the first of very many episodes about
(02:56):
legacy environmental justice with Savannah Dominic, and so I hope
you really enjoy this episode. They're gonna be coming in succession,
went after another. I'm not sure how long it's gonna
take to talk about this stuff, but we're gonna keep
talking about it until she's done talking and I'm done
asking questions. So without further ado, please enjoy this first
(03:20):
episode in a series of episodes about legacy environmental justice
with Savannah Dominic of Ohio Wesleyan University.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Enjoy.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
Doctor Leslie's Joseph. Thank you so much for joining us.
And I'm saying us because I have a very special
special guest with me today. Savannah's Dominic is with us
and we are going to be talking about legacy environmental
justice and I cannot wait to get into this conversation. Savannah,
(04:18):
thank you so much for being here with us.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Thank you so much for having me on this podcast.
Doctor Joseph, Hey.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
We're glad you're here and we can't wait to talk
about all of the things. So, for those of you listening,
I got an email from Savannah about a month ago
with some really interesting topics that Savannah wanted to talk about,
and so I just wanted to get Savannah floor and
we're going to talk about all kinds of different things.
But the overarching idea is legacy environmental justice. And I
(04:52):
was struck by this topic because in most environmental justice circles,
the idea is you want to get rid of the facilities,
you want to remove the polluting factories, and you want
to try to eliminate any harmful activities happening in your community.
But what Savannah was sharing with me was that even
(05:13):
after that's done, there's a legacy of environmental in justice
that continues beyond the life of that facility or beyond
the life of that factory. And so I wanted Savannah
to come here and tell us about it. And so
Savannah is here and I'm so glad. So before we
get started, Savannah, tell us who you are, where you're from,
(05:35):
and why this topic is something that you really want
to talk about on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Oh shoot, definitely. So my name is Savannah dominic J.
As you mentioned earlier. I'm from Rochester, New York. I
waked up talk a bit more later in the state
of New York. It's actually six hours from New York City,
so not from the New York City area. And ultimately
I go to school at Ohio Waking University. But the
reason I thought about this topic and why it's so
(05:59):
important to me is so originally I was trying to
figure out, like oftentimes we so much hear about like
the injustice is out there, it's over that way, but
right in reality, the injustice is also right here in
your own backyard too. So I wanted to figure out
where is the injustice in my hometown because oftentimes we
think about like the kids off Satan Gabriel, Louisiana, Flint, Michigan.
(06:21):
It's all out there, but what about here at home?
So originally I started looking at the factory downtown near
my home, which is actually Xerox, not Kodak should be
talking about later on this podcast. I could actually bite
to the Zerox manufacturing plant if I had a bike still,
but that's besides the point. And so I thought about
Xerox and I was like, I know they had like
(06:43):
super fun issues, like I for if to build a
church over there, and the church try to get all
this people work done to make sure you know, they
were building on pouted ground. But ultimately I decided to
go with a different facility, which is Kodak to talk
about later, just because I could not honestly find much
(07:04):
on Zerox. It was just really hard to find anything.
But on Kodak there was hudos and udos and udos
and information. And also like everybody in the town knows
about codec. You can't not know about it if you
live in Rochester and you grew up with any period
of time. It is so deeply ingrained in its history
and also in ex pollution. So I had to go, yeah,
(07:25):
even though Xerox is, you know, we are close to me.
For those who don't know, xeros are printing company used
to be really built back in the like I feel
like the Nine Hees was like, oh, go go xerox
that for me, or like, go print that for me.
But I said to go, hmm, what about this other
big thing too? And the difference is also when it
comes to legacy environmental justice. The Xerox plant is still there.
(07:48):
It's still you know, make an x printer products, So
it's not truly legacy in the point that it's you know,
the factory has shut down, it's still going, it's thriving
along even though it's not doing great. Kodak on the
other hand, Kodak in January of twenty twelve, that factory
in terms of Kodak at least, it is just it's
(08:11):
not really functioning it's original purpose anymore. So ultimately, that
is why I chose Kodak for its legacy environmental justice issue,
which would be talking about today on the podcasts.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Nice Nice Absolutely so. Apparently in Rochester, New York, where
you're from, there's a lot of factories, a lot of
industrial activity. It feels like it's the kind of place
that's inundated with these kind of polluting industries. Is that
the case or is it just these two places? And
that's kind of all that you see is are these
(08:45):
two locations Xerox and Kodak. Are they kind of over
running Rochester with pollution and those kind of things? And
do the people that live there experience that in different ways?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So I guess the first thing I would say is,
so it's not just Xerox Codec. In addition, there's also Bauschanlam,
which makes like eyeglass stuff, if you're familiar with them,
That was the other Those are the big three now truthfully,
others still overrunning this town with pollution. My ultimate answer
to that in essentially they no. Bauschan Lam was recently
(09:18):
bought a few years ago, and as a result, most
of the manufacturing has moved out of here. Codec, as
I mentioned earlier, went bankrupt. Some of the extens you know,
they had their spin offs, but most of it it's
done xerox. Most of the buildings were actually sold. There's
really not much more. Printers going out of Zerotic had
(09:39):
tons of layoffs in the recent years. So I would
say Rochester at one point I think was overrun with pollution.
But we're getting to the point where it's just these
companies are just fading away, but the effects of them
are not fading away.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
So let's talk about those. Let's talk about those effects then.
So how would you define or describe this idea of
legacy environmental justice and legacy environmental injustice and what elements
would you see that would help you understand. Okay, that's
what I'm saying, that's what I'm experiencing that's what we're
(10:13):
observing here. When I look at Rochester, New York, or
any of these other places that you mentioned, how would
you describe that?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, so I would describe legacy environmental justice as essentially
considering the leftover pollution that is left in these communities,
and then also looking at I mentioned a of these factories,
considering the effects of this de industrialization that it has
on the town as well as the potential for urban decay.
(10:42):
Essentially a legacy environmental justice. The big difference between, like,
if you will, like the regular environmental justice and the
legacy environmental juice is that environmental justice is more about
the active the active pollution, the active jumping, the active
what have you that needs to be stopped. Legacy environmental
(11:02):
justice the pollution through the most part of the active stuff.
It has stopped. The smoke stactor is still not, you know,
billowing out all their chloride and all the types of
junk that we don't want the air. But the effects
are still there. And in addition, and the social effects
are still there. The economic effects are there, as they
alluded to earlier, the environmental effects are there. And then
(11:25):
also I would say governmental whine a lot of these
communities do not have a good say in what is
being happening in the community.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Interesting. Interesting, So thinking about legacy environmental justice, now, the
idea would be that even though a facility is no
longer actively polluting, actively dumping, there remains after that facility
is gone. I guess you would says, would it be
residual or kind of lingering or kind of you know,
(11:57):
baseline types of environmental pollute that still has an impact
on people that live there even though that active pollution
is no longer taking place. And I guess then the
idea would be that shutting down a facility isn't enough
because although you're not seeing any active pollution, you're still
(12:22):
experiencing the impacts of what was previously done even though
that facility is no longer there. So can you talk about,
you know, what types of lingering effects you would see
a from a legacy environment just as perspective, and what
kinds of issues could still be ongoing even though this
(12:46):
facility is no longer there actively polluting our environment.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, definitely, And I really like that you use the
word lingering because there's just s staying there. So, for example,
when I think about it, so even though I mentioned
like Flint, Michigan earlier. So in nineteen seventy eight, the
General Motors Plant shut down. They use lots of lead
in their products, right because car pink hair lead, car
gasoline hair lead, and batteries and backs still have you know,
(13:13):
the lead acid batteries today, and then would the General
Motors can't dump all their weight, so out of it
the Flint River, Flint River got really contaminated. And now
I'm not saying that the lead in the Flint River
is the reason why Flint's water is is solely the reason,
because Flints water is you know, contaminated with lead today,
but it definitely continues to it. When they switched from
(13:34):
you know, the Detroit River to the Flint River from Flint, Michigan,
Flint River people was nasty, like disgrusting. Why was it
distrusting because the General Motors Plant made it distrusting. And
so I think that's an interesting connection that we can
still see these effects. It's not just oh, five years
down the road, oh it's all fixed now. We can
(13:55):
see these effects, you know, you know, like across the generations.
And then also other effects it could be such as
like if you can calminate the soil. Oftentimes I would
see the air pollution has you know, air pollution, the
air moves along its path, but soil like pollution, like
(14:15):
if you pollute the groundwater, Like if you go to
pollute the soil, for example, a lot of like maybe
water will premeated through the soil get into the groundwater
agrafer and like, well, I will admit Rochester, New York,
is typically on city water. If you go further out
into like the more like rural areas were known through
our cows, apparently you have a fair light factory coming in,
(14:37):
but exercides the point a lot of people have well water,
so now the groundwater is contaminated.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Interesting, so soil groundwater. In the case of Flint, Michigan,
the actual river itself kind of continues to be impacted
by that pollution, even though those factories shut down. You know,
it's interesting. We'll talk about this later. Obviously, there's so
much to get into. But there's the economics, and then
(15:04):
there's the environmental and then there's the kind of social
aspects of it. And so there has been a lot
of discussion in the news and over the last few
I guess presidential cycles about manufacturing where it's going, and
how we can bring jobs back, and how we can
have the kind of active manufacturing sector that we've once
(15:24):
had back in the seventies and eighties and maybe even
before then. And so it's interesting because I don't know
if people are aware of the impacts that these facilities
have had while they were there and currently have even
though they're no longer operating or in existence. And so
it sounds like Rochester, New York, was one of those
(15:46):
industrial centers where they had a lot of industrial activity,
a lot of growth in terms of their productivity when
they're producing products, and people like to go there to
set up their factories, set their facilities and with whatever
benefits seemed to come to the city. One thing we
(16:06):
can't deny is that these justice issues were problems then
and their problems now. And so when you, I don't
know if you've been back home or how much time
you spend in Rochester, I would love to hear you
talk about what life is like there now. So you know,
there was a Kodak facility there, there was a Xerox
(16:28):
facility there, washing loan has sold been taken over, and
you know, lots of things are different than they were before,
and so can you kind of help us understand what
life would be like. You said there was rural areas
where there's lots of cows, and I guess it's a
city center maybe or an urban area that's more industrial.
(16:48):
And so what is it like in Rochester now?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, so I guess there's the different areas of Rochester.
So two areas that are very prominent of Rochester is
so we have two major college campuses. They're huge, they're sprawling,
so the Rochester Institute of Technology in the University of Rochester.
So those are there only those cities, if you will,
kind of within Rochester, there wereth private institutions. I mean
(17:15):
they're nice places to be however, like if you go
to like the Kodak Park community, but the area surrounding
the Codec manufacturing plant, there's no denying that is just
it's just not a nice area to be in. You
can see on the news, you know, the cops are
constantly there because somebody got shot again. It's just a
lot of old rundown buildings. It's just it's just not
(17:37):
the nicest neighborhood, shall we say. Regarding Xerox, if you
go look at the Xerox plant. The Zero stans actually
pretty much kind of in the middle of I wouldn't
say nowhere, but there's not a ton of houses around
it onlike Kodak Park, but the houses that are nearby
it are actually low income housing projects. So a lot
of people are like, I don't really want to go
down that way. And then you you kind of balance
(18:02):
this with the the up and coming gentrification. Really, a
gentrification has to like the giant like high rise buildings
that are way too expensive. Anybody a forced to live
in there. So we have like the the a't so
nice areas of art students. Then we have like they
be like, ah, we are young, what have ex college
students come live in there? We have our we have
(18:24):
our neighborhood of the arts, you know, we have a
cute little stores. So it's a balance, I would say,
And I think you can once you really start the
cross those neighborhood lines, you can really start seeing Okay,
I'm in a different like city city neighborhood now, because
just how the houses looked, how they maintained and in
a sense were Rochester isn't home to any of these,
(18:44):
you know, I would say like big, you know your
zero actors, your code actually about and lands in the world.
It's not home. Put up a bunch of startups who are,
guess what, run by college students. So in a way,
it's kind of like the college students starts taking over,
which depends who you add. Of course, the schools are
trail that they're you know, they're alumni are doing great
things for them and making them lots of money for
(19:05):
you know, donations and stuff. And you have people that
are like, I don't like They're like, Okay, the college
students are here, that's fine, but I don't want them
sucking their soul out of my neighborhood and my community.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Oh that's interesting. It's the college students doing it and
the alumni doing it. They make sure I understand it.
So when you talk about the different you talk about
crossing neighborhood lines, and you can see the difference when
you cross those lines. Are those lines? Are they so
when you cross this line into a really run down neighborhood,
(19:37):
is that where the plant used to be in that neighborhood?
And when you come back to where it's a nicer
part of town, is that a place that was free
from these facilities or is there no correlation between the two.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I would say there is correlation. So the Kodac plant
is first of all, it's huge, so it's not four
miles long. So we got a bunch of neighborhoods to
the east, to the west of it, to the north
of it, and to the south of it. The neighborhoods
to the east of it. Those are the neighborhoods that
it's like, yeah, you know, I'm not doing so hot.
(20:10):
And then right after those neighborhoods, there's a river, the
Genesee River, that divides the town, and then on the
east side of that Genesee River that's where the university
is at. So it's kind of like they pour over
the river. I feel the death Street and footbridge you
can cross if you know you can, you can literally
cross the line between the neighborhoods and across to the
river and there you go. You're in the community. Now.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Interesting. Interesting is there a sense, at least from maybe
the college students university perspective that these kind of run
down areas are potential opportunities for them to expand or
to redevelop or to operate in service of the university, says,
(20:53):
because I know for a lot of university systems. I
don't know how big Rochester is in terms of universities,
but I know here in South Carolina, you know other
places I went to school in Baltimore Johns Hopkins, there
was a sense in which if you're in a location
that has these kinds of rundown areas, these kinds of
dilapidated homes and businesses, oh, there's an opportunity there for
(21:16):
us to expand, to develop more of our campus into
those areas, or maybe housing for our students, or restaurants
and you know, plazas that we can kind of sell
to our students as ways of reimagining what this city
or what this area could look like. Any of that happening,
(21:37):
because I could imagine if college students are running the town,
building businesses, you know what you said before, gentrifying and
creating these types of environments that only certain people can
live in. I wonder how far they're trying to take it.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, definitely. So for example, I do know that, like
I can speak for the University of Rochester on this
case that I don't know, there's students and faculty. They're
moving in to these communities that were like the west
of the Kodak manufacturing decipitly, like they're crossing the river.
They're going west. The school and the City of Rochester
government itself with the mayor and everything, they're giving home
(22:12):
ownership brands or like renting brands to these students so
they can go live in these communities. But the problem
is these students, at least from what I understand, is
they're not put in giving back to the community and
you know the page. They're not patronizing the local restaurants.
They're not supporting them. You know, they're going back to
the campus to go eat or something. They're going to
the quote unquote nicer neighborhoods to do. So it'scentially all
(22:34):
the really doing is living in these communities, and the
communities are like well, a lot of these people, with
the exception of maybe the faculty members, the students are
single for the most part. They're not family. You got
you know, you got your six students in one house,
and they're not they're not really like they want families
in the Typically they've been female family neighborhoods. So in
a sense, there's that, and then also for the Rochester
(22:58):
Institute of Technology, they're kind of they actually actually drained
a swamp to build it. So honestly, there's not many
housing developments around there, but they recently did expand one
of the housing opportunities to the downtown city at Rochester.
They took over the old the old Xerox headquarters I
actually and turned it into I do them for the
students there you go, so, hey, no, I got it.
(23:20):
That happens.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
It happens a lot. I mean, how does your family
feel about how things are changing in Rochester? Do they
have any concerns or are they okay? Do they like
what they're seeing or are they concerned about the direction
things are going in? Or do they not have an opinion?
What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
To be honest, I really I really don't think that
there's much of an opinion. I mean, I think one
thing that they're happy about is so recently the Rochester
City School DRIFTID is known for being horrendous in the
graduation right. So however, they greatly improved. I think it
was like seven years ago only forty one percent of
students were graduating on time. Now we're up to like
(23:59):
seventy which is I mean, it's still not like fantastic,
but it's a lot better than forty one percent or
what have you. So there's sentence that's like, oh, okay,
we like that, you know, the schools are improving, But
I don't know how much of that is like due
to COVID. Let's just move everybody through, because there was
definitely a lot of that around here. But honestly, I mean,
(24:19):
I think you're like, honest, you might have I hear
them compain about taxes. It's so expensive taxes.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Nobody likes taxes. Nobody likes taxes, especially if you believe
that your taxes aren't actually helping your living situation improve
or your community get better. And so I'm not sure
they've taken it that far, but I mean, like people
just don't want to pay taxes. It's fine. One day
you're gonna get a job and you're going to see
(24:49):
those lines come off of your check and you're going
to have the top number. Then all the taxes come
out and you're going to say, what in the world
is going on with my check? I need more money
and things are expensive, and I don't know what we're doing.
And so that's no discussion for another day. That's fine,
because I didn't want to get a sense of this community.
(25:10):
You know, a lot of these types of environmental justice
issues happen in very particular types of communities, particular areas,
whether they be very working class, different immigrant communities, low
income minority populations, like it's important to think about the
(25:32):
kind of context that these things are happening in. And
so I don't know much about Rochester obviously. I mean,
we all know New York City. There's always jokes about
the different islands, Long Islands, that island, all these different places.
But how would you describe the community that is Rochester
and the people that live there and the people that
(25:54):
not just from the university that are kind of sticking around,
but like the kind of I guess you could say
the legacy communities that existed in Rochester? Are these working
class families? Are these upper class? Lower class? Is a
mix in between the two? Are there different ethnicities, any
major immigrant populations that live there? How would you describe it?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yeah? How would I That's a good question. So I
think I would describe it as so we don't call
it like at the city. I would definitely say it's
majority it's lower income. Like of course there's your upper
usually you know, you're you know, your more wealthy areas,
but it's majority lower income. And then especially in the
recent years, you've had lots of people, you know, urban
sprawl has been a big thing. So who's the people
(26:39):
who are getting left behind? Typically are you know, the
minority communities who cannot you know, afford to you know,
low urban sprawl out because of you know, what reasons
have you In addition, one community is a very sizeable
Rochester is the deaf community. So we have a very
large death population here. We even have the National Technology
Technological Institute for their death years. Well, so that's a
(27:01):
huge population as well. A lot of them, do my
understanding live in the city. That yeah. And then also
with a lot of immigrant population coming in as well.
For example, in recent years we had another large number
of like Nepali immigrants coming in. Now we're on to
Ukrainian immigrants, Afghanistan immigrants, and those are just the ones
(27:25):
I know. So like for example, my father volunteers to like,
you know, help teach them English, so those are he
teaches them like he teaches like you know afgh Any woman,
Ukrainian women English are actually reason like I know that
those are like people coming in prominently because he's teaching
on a weekly basis, you know, conversational English. But I'm
sure there are other like immigrants groups coming in as well,
(27:47):
and typically they're getting put in, you know, these houses
which my father has visited samodome, you know, taken to
like you know, their picture appointment so like and like
you know, get their driver's license or what have you.
And he's like, exists not really in a nice neighborhood.
The house is falling apart, refrigergated. That's like it's from
you know, the eighties. It's not like a nice place
to be, which I mean, obviously I'm not sure who
(28:10):
you know exactly we strattling these newcomers, but they're being
put in the not so nice areas of the city.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
That is really interesting. So how would you describe the
reception of these immigrant populations from these different places. I know,
I'm sure you know this too. Immigration is a big
hot topic across the country, and a lot of the
concern is this idea of integrating these different immigrant communities,
(28:37):
these different populations into an existing culture, whatever that culture
may be. So for instance, just full disclosure. So my
family's Haitian. And so this past electionsc there was a
big discussion about Haitian populations living in America. So I
don't know if you saw the presdential debate where where
(29:01):
the I guess President elect talked about immigrants in Springfield,
Ohio eating cats and dogs and this idea that they
weren't able to be integrated well into that community in Ohio.
They were Haitian immigrants he was talking about. And I
wonder if the city of Rochester, if your dad even
has seen or has he experienced, you know, the ways
(29:25):
in which they've been brought over kind of integrated in.
I'm assuming they're working, they find housing, they're going to
the grocery store, they're going to the doctor's office or
in the library. Probably, Like what has that been like
for the city from your perspective, and is there anything
(29:45):
that you wish was different about how they've been received
and integrated into your community?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Definitely, So I feel like in a termse of how
they didn't received given that like just say graphic location
of where they're coming from, people are more open to
where people like oh, I see, you know, the tragedy
that's occurring, you know, in their home country. So it's
like they're more like, eh, you know, it's not like
I know, like for example, there's a lot of like
(30:15):
complaints to it. It's like wow, and its sound bad,
like at least you're not Mexicans. You know, we don't
want the Mexicans. But you know what the Ukrainians do
in Afghanistan, people they're okay, you know, right, And then
like the big problem is schooling. So a lot of
them obviously they don't come here speaking English. And yes,
you know, they teach English as a second language or
(30:37):
third language in the city schools, but like classes have
like thirty kids and they don't all speak like one language.
We got friends who work in like the city school
which is they're teaching kids, and it's like, okay, well
this one speaks Spanish, this one speaks you know, Ukrainian,
this one speaks Pharsei, this one speaks that one. It's
like you have all these resources, is there really under resourced?
(31:00):
Be quite honest, So these kids are really struggling trying
to like learn English and then regarding like jobs. For example,
my father tutors want when she should should be a
doctor if she was back in her home country, but
right now she's like, you know, just doing something that's like,
honestly our four un world could do just give them
(31:20):
the right training because because you don't speak the language,
it's like, wow, we don't really have anything for you,
or it's like your credentials don't work here. You might
you know, have all the credentials you want, but we
don't accept them kind of things. But overall, I would
say there is there is, there is like acceptance, but
it's kind of like, yeah, I'm not gonna like go
(31:44):
out of my way to like, you know, make make
make sure you're feeling at home kind of thing. It's
just like I'm not gonna like say that like spreading
medicais with eating cats and dogs if they were in Springfield, Ohio.
But it's not like You're gonna be my best friend
and I want you know, you on my wing and
make sure that both you and you know your kids,
did you grow your kids with you are going to
(32:05):
have you know, a good life here.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Oh man, Well that's good information to know because all
of that plays into and helps us see more clearly
what kind of community it's in existence with this legacy
environmental justice taking place or injustice taking place, I should say.
And so you know we're running up on our time.
(32:28):
I don't want to hold you too long. We have
so many things to talk about, and for our listeners,
let me just tell you that there's going to be
multiple episodes in this series of discussions about legacy environmental justice.
I think we're going to talk about Kodak more specifically,
because they're the ones that have really made an imprint
on this community, and we're going to talk about some
(32:50):
of the different issues that relate to that. And Samana's
going to tell me more about his hometown and the
people that live there. And it's going to be a
great series of episodes, and so please stay tuned before
we go. Is there anything else you want to share
with us about the good city of Rochester or just
(33:11):
your desire to look into this issue more closely.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I think it's just important to keep in mind the
scale and that this is not only an issue in Rochester,
New York, but it is an issue that can be
found throughout the United States and throughout the world as well.
So I would ultimately really encourage people like the reason
I have looked into this issue so much is because
it's here in my backyard. What issues, as you, the listener,
(33:36):
what issues are in your backyard? What issues can you
educate yourself more about and then ultimately take steps to
you know, moving towards more environmental justice in these communities.
I guess that'd be my challenge to the listeners, see
see what can your own you know, your own backyard,
your city, or even like where your work. So I'm
(33:57):
sure there's something you just you just.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Have to look mm hmm, absolutely absolutely so thank you, Savannah.
I can't wait to our next conversation. I can't wait
to get more into this, but for now, you have
been listening to the Environmental Justice Lab. I'm doctor Joseph.
That's Savannah, and we will see you next time. Take care,
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