November 29, 2024 • 52 mins
It's the holiday season, and we are coming to the end of another amazing season of the Environmental Justice Lab Podcast. And to finish the year strong, we have a 2-part conversation with the El-Sayeghs. They are a dynamic father-daughter duo of Palestinian engineers who care deeply about environmental justice and equity. I hope you enjoy these episodes as much as I enjoyed recording them.
So let's get into Part 1 of my conversation with the El-Sayeghs!
Resources:
Five Myths about Israel & Palestine
Voices from Gaza
Reports from B’Tselem (Israeli Human Rights Organization)
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
So let's get into Part 1 of my conversation with the El-Sayeghs!
Resources:
Five Myths about Israel & Palestine
Voices from Gaza
Reports from B’Tselem (Israeli Human Rights Organization)
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. My name is doctor
Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for joining me. And
we are quickly getting to the end of this year,
and so I am preparing to go on my holiday
break for the month of December. I'm excited about it.
I get to spend some time with the family, do
(00:21):
some shopping, do a lot of eating, and maybe take
a few trips. We'll see how it goes, but it's
going to be time for the holiday break. But I
did not want to leave you without any episodes for
the holidays, and so I wanted to share with you
a conversation I had with two Palestinian engineers. One is
(00:46):
a father, doctor Hatim L. Sied and his daughter, Lydia L. Sied.
The father is an environmental engineer and the daughter is
a biomedical engineer. They are both Palestinian, and I had
the opportunity to talk to them about the environmental situation
(01:08):
and the issues and all that's going on in guys
that during this war that's taking place, has been going
on for well over a year now, and we had
a great conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So it was so good.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
We had to record two different times just to get
all of our thoughts together and to really have a
discussion we want to have, and so I want to
share those with you over the next couple of weeks
during the holiday season, because I don't want you to
forget that the fight for justice, to fight for environmental justice,
(01:43):
the fight to enable all of us to have and
to enjoy this environment equally. It doesn't end when the
holidays begin, and in fact, a lot of times the
holidays and when we feel it most acutely, we don't
have what we needed. And so we record these conversations
a few months ago, and I've been editing them and
(02:06):
I've been kind of nervous about it. I'm not I
wasn't sure when to put them out. You know, when
I start talking about Palestine, start talking about war, start
talking about environmental injustice as it relates to those kinds
of things, I get nervous and I'm not sure if
I'm presenting the conversations well, if I'm representing the issues well,
(02:26):
because I'm not as verse in them as I am
with us issues. But this is important information, This is
an important discussion that needs to be heard and understood.
And so I over the next couple of weeks will
present to you our discussions, and so, without further ado,
(02:47):
I want to share with you a conversation I've had
with the l size Edges about environmental injustice in Palestine,
not just during this war, but just in general, because
it's been very difficult living life there, trying to raise
a family there, trying to exist in the way that
(03:09):
allows you to reach your full potential, and so please
enjoy this conversation. I enjoyed having the conversation, and so
without further ado, please enjoy part one of my conversation
with the Lsayeges regarding environmental injustice in Palestine. Welcome to
(03:52):
the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host, doctor Leslie Joseph.
Thank you so much for joining us, and I say
us because I have two very very special guests with
us today on the podcast. I'm excited for this conversation.
I know you're gonna learn a lot and enjoy it.
We have, first and foremost, doctor hat Tim Elsiek. He
(04:15):
is a licensed professional engineer, the environmental engineer extraordinaire. I'm
so glad that he is here, Doctor hot Tim.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
How are you.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Better than I deserve? I will say, I'm fine I'm fine,
Thank you. Good to see you this morning.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Perfect, It's good to see you too, thanks for being here.
And along with him is his daughter, the beautiful Lydia Elsie.
She is a biomedical engineer. Lydia, how are you this morning.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
I'm definitely glad to be here. Thank you, Doctor Joseph
for inviting us.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
No problem, Thank you for being here and the reason
I wanted you to come. I don't know those of
you who listened to the podcast may have known that.
Earlier this year, I did a series of episodes on Palestine.
I wanted to really think through the environmental injustices that
have occurred, not just now currently, but throughout its history.
And I was so thrilled to meet doctor hot Tim
(05:15):
and Lyddy because they are both Palestinian, they are both engineers,
and they are both very attuned and plugged into the
environmental issues that are occurring in Palestine, and they agreed
to talk to me about it, and so that is fantastic.
Thank you so much for coming in. Before we even
get into all of those things, just tell our listeners
(05:37):
a little bit about yourself, your upbringing, your connections to Palestine,
and just paint the picture for all of us who
have never been there, who don't know what it's like.
Just share what you want us to know about yourself
and about Palestine.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Absolutely, Doad, do you want to go first? You're a
generation closer.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Well, I'll say you know. I come from a long
history of family that has lived in Palestine, mostly in
the city of Gaza. Although my dad was an obstetrician
guynecologist in Kuwait, he worked there for a long part
(06:23):
of his life until he passed away.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
His father, my grandfather, was.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Worked for the railroad, the British railroad system in Palestine
before nineteen forty eight. He was killed in the nineteen
forty eight war. My great grandfather were mostly merchants and professionals,
so in a mostly a lot of Augradian farmer community,
(06:58):
but they were more in the fashion and in the mercantile.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
So yeah, I grew up.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Actually part of my life was was in Kuwait, but
but we would go in summers and visit our our
home in in Gaza. In Palestine, it wasn't as often
because travel has always been hard and we had to
get certain permits and it wasn't easy to get them,
(07:30):
and it costs a lot of money, but we always
knew that it was our home. And in the Middle East,
you know, if you're born somewhere, it doesn't you don't
get the citizenship of that country. That's very different than
the Western world. It's it's what your parents citizenship is,
you know. So that was a sort of a different upbringing.
(07:52):
But I've always loved to go back home. I've always
seen Palestine, Gaza as my home, our family house there
and our relatives, and was always a special time, always
wanting to go back, and eventually did.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
I So to add to that, there's also my mom's
side of the family. My grandfather from from Gaza also
for many generations before nineteen forty eight, and my grandmother
from Yaffa which is now known as Tel Aviv, and they, Yeah,
we have family all over the land of that's that's
(08:35):
now called Israel and the West Bank and Gaza, and
I've been lucky enough to to go visit, and I'm
sure I'll share more about what I saw. But I didn't,
you know, get to go to Gaza, because there has
been before before this latest escalation, a seventeen year blockade,
(09:01):
and so but that's where my grandmother is right now.
And that's part of the reason that we're talking here today,
because because through her eyes we see so much of
the pain and destruction and justice that you know has
(09:23):
always been there but is being visited in really a
high genocidal volume on Gaza right now. So that's kind
of the connection we have today. And I do hope
that soon I'll get to go be with be with
our family again.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. That's a beautiful picture.
And just for our listeners, in case you're unaware of
the history, the reason the year nineteen forty eight keeps
coming up in this discussion so far is because that
is the year when the modern state of Israel was established.
And in order to establish that modern state. And I
(10:08):
don't know how you would describe this Lydia and Hatem,
but from what I've read and what I've understood, there
was an expulsion of the previous Palestinian population to make
room for Jews to come from all over the world,
dealing with persecution all over YEurope, all over different parts
(10:29):
of the known world at that point, coming to Israel,
and the displacement of Palestinians from that land to create
and establish that state is there is the conditions under
which a lot of what you're sharing has occurred, and
so I don't want that to be missed by our listeners.
There's history far beyond you know, October seventh, or twenty sixteen,
(10:54):
or twenty fourteen, whatevery year. You believe, the conflicts have
really ramped up. From the very beginning, there was a
lot of issues in this region. And I don't know
if you would point to that establishment as the kind
of beginning of that, but I know for me, just
reading and trying to learn, I see that as a
(11:15):
really major milestone from where things began to where we
are today. So thank you for sharing that. I really
really appreciate it. And to go along with that, you know,
we're in the West. I'm in South Carolina. I think
you are both in Atlanta, Georgia. We're in the South,
and I don't know about you. But the idea of
(11:40):
the Middle East and Israel, Palestine and the Arab world,
the way I hear it in the news where I
see it in the media, I'm pretty sure what I
see and what I hear isn't really the case and
doesn't really fairly represent that part of the world, And
so I wonder from your perspectives. Cut I know, for
(12:03):
me as a as a Black American, I mean, when
I see our depictions on TV up until maybe the
last couple of years, maybe since Obama was elected, the
depictions have not been favorable, not been very kind, and
very stereotypically negative. And so I wonder if you've had
that same experience, just if you in movies or when
(12:23):
there's news about, you know, the Middle Eastern region of
the world, or if you talk to friends or colleagues
about what's going on. You know, I would love to
hear your perspective on what you see and how you
experience that, and what your thoughts are about the depiction.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
And we'll start with Lydia first.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Sure, sure, yeah, there's there's a wide a wide range
of like views and responses. But but mostly what I
would I experience in my daily life and in and
even media is if there's not like some flare up
(13:06):
or or Gaza is not showing up on the news,
people actually are quite silent, avoidant of of even acknowledging
or saying, you know, saying saying that someone is Palestinian,
is it is a dirty word, or or when I
when I express when people ask me, you know, where's
your family from? After I say Palestine or Gaza, people
(13:26):
are My experience has been silence, and and it's been
you know, just a little. It's it's disappointing because I
love to take an opportunity to to humanize and to
share my culture and just like anyone else. And then
of course there's the extreme depictions and and of like
(13:49):
terrorism and and just like this, once it does come out,
Palestinians are equated with terrorism and violence and and you
know whatever, like resistance groups that are fighting like Hamas.
So there's a lot of I think people see me
(14:14):
and they don't quite say it out loud to to
to me as a young woman, I don't look like this,
and as a Christian, I don't fit the stereotypes. But
but in in media and in and if they don't
know my background, I think that is is the only
like one dimensional uh label put on on Palestinians in
(14:37):
my experience. And there's lots of misc inceptions, which yeah,
I don't know if Dad, you want to add to
anything that I said, but I can talk about some
common misconceptions as well.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I agree with that there is, there is a spectrum.
But I've said that many many times before or the
when you use the word Middle East, it is used
as a by the western wards as a shifting geography
(15:10):
where there is trouble. That's how That's how I said.
It's like, where is the Middle East? Where is there
there is trouble and people look different and so so
what what I've seen is is ranged. But but certainly
I'm seeing more and more in this polarized political environment
(15:32):
in in the United States. And I'm not a political pundit,
but I see it. It's obviously there are two polls
you know that that are pulling in different directions that
there is. It has become a binary thing, so to speak.
It's it's you're either good or bad. And if you're
(15:53):
you know, Palestinian for the most part, your band and
and and and people fail to understand that fail to
apply the same principles or or or guiding thoughts that
they apply to other countries. You know, we don't like
(16:14):
the leadership, but the people, you know, they are oppressed,
they are suffering, or or we don't like this subgroup,
or that they are behaving in a in an manner
inconsistent with human justice or mercy.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
But then, but.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Understand that there are people who didn't choose their leadership,
so that's that's not afforded to Palestinians. You know, we
are Lydia and I our family, our family at large.
We are against violence. We don't support violence in any sort.
You know, human life is precious, invaluable. Every person is
(17:03):
created on the image of God. That's part of our faith,
regardless of.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Their ethnic origin or or anything else.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
So we see it this way, and for us to
defend every time, you know, most of the time, we
have to defend the fact that we are Palestinian if
we are even giving the opportunity. You know, if you
say Palestinian, it shuts the conversation down, or you know,
you're why do you support Hamas? It's like who told
(17:36):
you I do? Who told you I support this?
Speaker 5 (17:38):
This? You know, And then I try to.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Help them understand there are people you're talking about, millions
of people, and you're just categorizing them into one. And sorry,
maybe this may not addressed exactly your question, but the
movie certainly have contributed a lot. Hollywood has been an
instrumental part. The media has been an instrumental part. You know,
(18:07):
the media is definitely most of the media is biased.
But but social media, good or bad, love it or
hate it, has exposed a lot of different narratives that
that that are challenging people.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
But at the same time, people.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Have been carrying the narratives that they have been taught
and and taking only what fits their narrative and carrying
it forward. It's it's a it's a it's been as
much a burden to to to try to explain to people,
(18:53):
to to find those who are ready to hear what
does a Palestinian mean?
Speaker 5 (18:58):
What does being Palestine and involved?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
And then just to continue that that train of thought
that you said, you had some misconceptions that are pretty
common that you kind of wanted to address and kind
of clear out.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, feel free to go ahead.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Because I want to know and I want my misconceptions
to be cleared as well, So.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Teach us absolutely.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Well, there's there's just a few common ones that I
wanted to point out this time, and that come up
frequently in conversation or in media. And so like many
people assume this is a religious conflict or a religious battle.
That's you know, unending or whatever. There's lots of different
(19:43):
theologies around it, especially in the Western Christian world that
we live in. And so people are often surprised when
they find out that we're Palestinian Christian and that there
is like a long history of Palaestian Christians and that
they experienced the same experience, the same discrimination that our
Muslim brothers and sisters do. And so that's one aspect
(20:06):
that it's it's more of a political colonial conflict than
and and and the other is yeah, aside along with
that colonialism, h thread, it's not an equal conflict. It's
one group has if you just look at the facts,
(20:26):
military and nuclear weapons, they extract resources and and dominate
and restrict the movement of another. They have, you know,
all the civil liberties and and self determination that any
any people should have, while that group can arrest, kill, bomb,
(20:47):
steal from the other at any point in time and
and go unpunished. There's virtually no repercussions for when that's
done by military or just regular citizens of Israel. And
so yeah, and it can even illustrate in the GDP
like fifty five thousand per capita per year for for
(21:10):
Israelis and then in for Palestinians, it goes down to
less than five thousand per year in Gaza before the
last latest escalation, just like twelve hundred per GDP or
around like per capita per year. So but when when
we when we express this inequality and injustice, people people
(21:32):
find it hard to believe, and and it's not the
picture that that they've received. And so it takes maybe
a few times of sharing or a few facts or
a few like articles to truly to kind of for
them to believe us, I guess, and and often we
don't get that opportunity. And then the last it kind
(21:53):
of is relevant to our conversation here. There's this popularized
notion that that the state of Israel is making the
desert bloom or making the desert green, and I hear
people excited about that some friends here in my own community.
And there's some of the misconceptions around there is that
(22:16):
Israel is diverting resources water and like the natural resources
of the land from Palestinian areas to the settlements or
to these desert places. And actually one aspect of this
is over eight hundred you can see it in the trees,
(22:40):
over eight hundred thousand olive trees have been uprooted by
israel authorities and settlers since nineteen sixty seven when they
took over and occupied the Palestinian areas, and for what remains,
Palestinians are often restricted from accessing their land and when
(23:01):
they are harvesting all of us like that's that's a
season of common attacks by settlers, by by Israel settlers
in the area. And and in a kind of green colonialism,
which is which is a fascinating concept, not just in Palestine,
but throughout throughout the world, throughout you know, the continent
(23:22):
of Africa and so forth. But in this particular iteration
in Palestine. Over two hundred and fifty million non native,
non fruit bearing pine trees have been planted in these
settlements in Israel Palestine, and it's just a picture of
like this wasn't how it was meant to be, but
(23:44):
but it's a common like thing that people are decided
about let's plant trees and in the Holy Land, and
it's actually quite harmful and reshaping the environment to be
not the way that it was supposed to be. So yeah,
there's there's a lot to unlearn and uncover with us
(24:05):
and and so yeah, My encouragement is if people can
come visit and see, you can learn a lot that way.
Always ask questions and don't don't take any narrative that
that rejects the humanity of another person or group, because yeah,
I think that just accepting narratives from media and from
(24:27):
uh television and from just other other people, it can
it does create these these misconceptions, and we need to
you know, I encourage people to ask questions.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, no, that's that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So and that leads us into our discussion about environmental
injustice in pastime. But before we get there, I have
to push a little bit more because I've never heard
this term green colonialism. I know that there have been campaigns,
there have been movements, especially I'm a Christian also, so
especially in the Christian world, we want to in our
(25:01):
minds at least invest in what we call the Holy Land.
And so the idea of planting a tree has always
been the way that we've been taught to connect ourselves
to that land. Right, And so you have these campaigns.
You can give a certain donation, you can give a
certain nut, you can plant a tree, have your name
associated with a tree, and you can kind of feel
(25:23):
as though you're contributing in a positive way to this,
Like you said, desert land that needs life, that needs
vibrance and vitality. We can actually participate in partner in
that endeavorance. So when you talk about green colonialism, could
you say a little bit more about what that looks
like in Powstide and what it means. So you plant
(25:45):
a pine tree, a thousand pine trees. From our perspective here,
it's green, it gives life. It from a technical engineering perspective,
it sucks in potentially harmful air pollution, and it contributes
to a more beautiful area. And we feel like we're
(26:06):
we're a part of that. And so what you're talking
about is the idea that that kind of intervention can
be harmful and hurtful to the people that live there.
And so what how how is that the case? And
what would be a better way of investing ourselves in
these areas?
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Definitely, yeah, I'm I'm actually still learning about green colonialism
in Palestine and in the wider region because it looks
it looks different as like Western economies invest in specific
types of like like solar panels in the desert, and
that don't quite work because they get covered with sand.
(26:49):
And so there's just there's some different like serving the
energy needs or the the responses to climate change in
the in the West, serving them by by explaining the
resources of of countries that don't have as high income
(27:10):
or so forth. So but specifically in Palestine, yeah, there,
you know exactly, it sounds great to plant trees and
to invest in and that's what I mean. I do
that here with with in like I think it's trees Atlanta.
I've planted trees and and but one thing we do
is is work out in base of species, because when
(27:32):
you have like plants that are not meant for indigenous
to the land, then it extracts resources in a way.
Or like in addition to pine trees, I think eucalyptus
plants have been plant planted, and that's very water extractive
in a place that while while still being luscious and
(27:53):
producing olive trees and fruits and peaches and mangoes, it's
it's still water is water scarce. And so there there
are very specific things that the land has been just
in a way designed for that that bringing over pine
trees from Europe isn't the what it was meant for.
(28:15):
And so so I think the response to that is
my encouragement is to trust Palestinians who have been indigenous
to the land and stewards of the land and very
agriculturally savvy. Actually, a lot of the times Talstenian laborers
are brought into Israel to to work the land because
they know best.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
And so.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
Yeah, I think let's let's Palsenians lead the way for
care and teach others. I think that's just missing from
like this idea that that Palestinians have even intelligence about
how to how to care for the land. Yeah, that's
(28:58):
my that's my thought, and that go ahead.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Yeah, and I'll add to this the way the laws
are manipulated over there and used to the benefit of
one group against the other. You know from from Ottoman
laws that you know, if you don't cultivate the land
for so many years, then the state has the right
to confiscate it. Then they confiscated And and why weren't
(29:22):
they able to cultivate the land, whether it's because there
is a wall or they can travel to their land
and suddenly it becomes the state. And for a Western society, oh,
they are dedicating or using this land as a public
area apart, you know, and okay, and suddenly next time
and in a few years, this park is converted into
(29:45):
settlement houses for the benefit of a certain group against
the other. So you see this from a Western perspective. Oh,
you're using land as a park for everybody's benefit. And
suddenly you know you have population growth, whatever that population
comes from, even from outside the country. Now you want
to build housing for the benefit of the people who
(30:06):
are coming. Wow, another great thing, leaving alone what this
land was. You know, there is a park that's called
Canada Park and Israel that's built on the ruins of
Palestinian villages. You know, you go there, you see a
beautiful park that's about seven k square kilometers, but you know,
(30:30):
who tells you the history of who was there and
where that was built? You know, And that's something where
you go there, you see a green park, but you
don't see the history of the people and the villages,
people who lived there, and the heritage for however many
centuries they lived there.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
It's gone. But what you see is a beautiful park. Oh,
this is green, this is beautiful. I went there, I
saw this, and you come back with this idea which
which you know again it's it's to the benefit of
(31:09):
one group of people.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
And the exclusion or the destruction of another along with
their heritage.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Yeah, that is a very clear picture of what's happening
and how these interventionist efforts can really damage a Palsing,
the community of PAALSINGI area in ways that I guess
for us in the West, we would say it's unintentional.
But there is intentionality with every move that's made, and
(31:40):
we have to be aware of the fact that nothing happened.
These things don't happen by accident. These things are intentional
and there's a purpose behind them, and it's it's it's true.
It's true to learn about them too, because I just
would not have known these things. And so staying on
that same train of thought in the same environmental kind
(32:01):
of concerns and issues. I'm curious. You know, you're both engineers.
We both have very intimate understandings of how systems work.
Water systems, wastewater systems, food systems, all these different types
of systems. Have you been to Palestine or any of
the Palesainian territories. Have you had an opportunity to kind
of work on some of these types of issues and
(32:23):
maybe use your expertise to try to enhance the quality
of life there.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
And if so, how and if not why not?
Speaker 5 (32:35):
Yeah, so, so I'll start. I've had the honor to
work on.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Wastewater and stormwater projects in the mid nineties in the
city of Gaza under the US eight US AID Agency
for International Development, on such building stormwater uh storage ponds
(33:04):
and building a wastewater system, looking at the wastewater treatment
plant for the city of Gaza and improving the.
Speaker 5 (33:12):
Facilities over there. Those are all.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
Things I worked on again a US government project funded
by by the United States. So I've seen those of
worked on them and went even through challenges for one times,
like you know, this plant was designed long time ago
by by an Israeli company because Israel it was controlling Gaza,
(33:40):
and and then we look at the chlorine tank and
it's like they are empty.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
We can't use them.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
You have to disinfect treated water before you discharge it
into the sea. And it's like why, Well, because chlorine
gas is chlorine is a hazard, or or it could
be used for other purposes.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
So there you go.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
You build the chlorine tanks, but there is no chlorine.
You don't disinfect the water. This is just one of
the things that that intricacies or nuances that that people
here don't think, well, you have a waste water system, well,
we can't use it the way.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
It was designed.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
And sadly, you know, I've seen those things. I've seen
them on the news being destroyed one after another in
the in the current that's right war and and it
breaks my heart and sometimes even breaks my heart that
the source of funding for both the building.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
And the destruction are the same. It breaks my heart.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
And I'll say something I didn't say earlier, because I've
seen a lot of people, you know, educating about the situation.
They're pulling up a stool and a power point and
speak with such authority when when a lot of facts
are just strong, they use them as facts they are wrong.
I'll tell you don't agree or disagree with me. You
(35:07):
can agree or disagree. I just invite you to be curious,
check everything we have shared, learn stories, and then make
your judgment. Don't base your judgment or your position on
you know, a ten minute presentation by somebody who've been
(35:27):
there for two weeks came with a specific narrative. Anyway,
back to engineering, Yeah, Lydia, you want to say.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Something, Go ahead, Lydia, what have you like?
Speaker 4 (35:42):
Yeah, I'm kind of young in my career. I'm a
biomedical engineer by training, and I don't know if you
can see it too, but there are so many needs
in terms of medical devices and just a need for
physical and mental healing and well being in throughout Palesigin,
(36:06):
but especially in Gaza obviously right now, So so many
Just if you just think about the thousands of amputees
children who will need new prosthetics every every you know
they're going to be growing and or or you know,
like there's so many different aspects even outside of my
engineering field, of needs for therapy and that sort of thing.
(36:28):
But so so I see the need and it's it's
really where my heart is right now. I don't know
what kind of opportunities there there will be to help.
I'm looking for them, but but really, what's most evident
to me in order to be able to like help
(36:48):
come in with devices or design for what people need,
we need a ceasefire, which is so basic to say,
but healthcare workers have been being killed over and over
and over and and like new patients are are coming
in every every single day, just overwhelmingly and horrifically in
(37:11):
such bad shape. So and like supplies are so scarce.
Anesthesia is so like almost like people, you know, doctor's
complete amputations without anesthesia and without the necessities. And so
there is so much need and and so much need
(37:32):
being created actively through the current genocide that you know,
I've seen my work, even though it's not quite engineering,
it's uh is as to be an advocate and to
ask for a ceasefire in order to be able to help,
in order to make a way. Yeah, because I can't
(37:55):
do one job if I don't do the first. And yeah,
and the bless thing I want to say is that
you know, there's not just engineers and capable people outside,
but there's capable engineers and doctors and designers in Gaza itself,
in Palestine itself, and they're being killed, and their families
(38:19):
are being killed, and their projects that they've worked on
have been destroyed. A relative of mine ran the like
newly established cancer treatment wing at La Baptist Hospital in Gaza,
and that was one of the first things to be destroyed.
And she worked the years raising money and buying the equipment.
(38:41):
So like these these projects and these people are are
so capable and so smart and educated and able, but
their lives and livelihood are being taken away from them
because of who they are and where they were born.
So yeah, my I ask first before before you know
(39:02):
anyone is able to help, is stop bombing.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I've called for ceasefires numerous
times on the podcast, and I've discussed, you know, some
facts and figures regarding you know, water quality, wastewater management,
air pollution, air quality, infrastructure in general. We don't have
to revisit those things. But what I do want to
ask you, and you mentioned this obviously earlier, but I
(39:28):
want to just make it as clear as possible from your.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Perspectives, what do you believe? What do you think?
Speaker 1 (39:38):
How do you feel what's necessary to correct these injustice,
to correct all the harm that has been inflicted on
these populations. I say populations because I mean for those
of us listening, I mean there's the guys A Strip,
there's the West Banks East groups from there're separate, and
(40:00):
they're across that region, and so I imagine that there
are different challenges in each of those areas. I don't
want to just generalize too much, but what do you
think actually needs to happen. Obviously, it cees fire, obviously,
releasing hostages. Obviously people going back to presuming whatever's left
(40:21):
of their cities and homes. But once we get there,
I mean, then what the water is still dirty, the
air is still clouded, there's no place to go if
you're sick, there's no medicine, there's no food.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
What needs to happen to try to address those things?
Speaker 4 (40:42):
Definitely?
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Everybody is talking about, well, a lot of people are
talking about the day after, and and it's like, you know,
people are not ready to sign treaties. We would love
to see peace.
Speaker 5 (41:03):
Lydia and I and.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Whole family would love to see peace and people living
together in harmony and peace. But there is so much
pain that has been caused, you know, so much, so
much hurt that that needs to be this healing, this,
this justice, this you know people people want to be healed,
(41:28):
people are are orphaned, people are berieved. Parents that there
is so much on the human level that needs to happen.
After a ceasefire, after the stop of the bombing and
(41:49):
the hostilities, there is there is so much on the
human level that needs to happen before we talk politics.
It's unfortunate, you know, it's un fortunate, but politics and
treaties are not the solution. Our world leaders, who who
who watch this for months cannot be the ones who
(42:12):
broke her peace right now. It's the humans who have
the mercy and the justice and the desire to heal.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
People. Those that's what's needed.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Shoulders to cry on hugs, you know, doctors to replace
the ones who were killed, Teachers to replace the ones
who were killed, people to tell the children it's going
to be okay. I don't know that there is so
much trauma there. There is irreparable damage, whether from from
(42:47):
from famine or from hunger, from you know, the bombing,
from the the.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
Just the trauma, the trauma.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Wow, yeah, yeah, so you're talking.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
I mean, I was thinking about how we always talk
about rebuilding, Flick, but what you're talking about is deeper
than that. It's more of a societal almost like a
reorientation of what life is going to be like and
what life needs to become in order for there to
(43:29):
actually be an opportunity for peace, not even just okay,
we're done fighting. We get the people in the room,
have a summit and leave with a document that we
agree will govern our territories and countries. You're talking about
(43:49):
going in with healers and with people who can touch
on a human level to restore or people's I guess
in this case just sense of life and well being and.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Or humanity or huanity even I mean those have been
called human animals, those people have been ignored. That needs
to be a reversal of this dehumanization. You know, when
we care about one conflict in another part of the
world and see these people are being bounded or this
children's hospital or whatever. But then in another conflict, we say, well,
(44:30):
it's those people who launched trackets from it or whatever
we try to justify. You know, Okay, how are the
people who justified my suffering as a person in guys
are going to be the ones who are whom I
will have to trust to bring healing, justice and peace. Yes,
(44:51):
there is something very deep that that this is different
from other situations that I've seen I've.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Known about lydia. What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 4 (45:03):
Yeah, I think just taking it to the I love
this to me. It's a biblical idea of restorative justice
or a principle of restorative justice, and there's you know,
it might be wishful thinking to say that Palestinians need
reparations or you know, but but really, you know, restorative
(45:27):
justice is not is contrasted with retributive and punishment and
more killing and death. There is there's a need for
like a lifting up. The person who is higher and
who has the equal has the rights and the and
the capabilities and the and should be invested. Just like
(45:47):
we are very privileged in the US, I want to
be invested in lifting up my you know, downtrodden and
hurt like fellow humans, whether they're in Palestine or Sudan
or if you hope yet like there is ah, I
(46:09):
want to lift someone else up. And so I think
my ask is that people trust Palestinian you know, you
offer trust so that they can trust you. Let them lead,
you know, just like we said, they're they're quite knowledgeable
(46:29):
about the land and how to steward it. Also very
educated in like taking care of wounds and trauma therapy
and and those things give them opportunity to lead it.
I'm very wishful. I know that the international community loves
to get their hands into life there. But there is
(46:51):
a deep, deep restoration feeling and it starts need and
and it starts it can at least start with you
and me as as US citizens or you and me
as just individual citizens of the world, to value and
respect and hold in high regard this, Uh, these fellow
human beings of ours, so so much work to do
(47:15):
and and like, yeah, we've mentioned that there's so many
preconditions for that work as well. But that's the invitation,
is to love and value and and and hold up
uphold the the well being and rights of another person
that you you're not connected to.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Maybe yeah, no, that's great, that's great. I mean, we're
we're running out of time. I really appreciate all of
this amazing knowledge and perspective that you've provided for us.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
I want to end with this.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
So all that we talked about in terms of what
we can do and how it can look, like doctor
Attempt said the day after, help me on a tangible,
practical level. In our listeners as well, what would you
say to us you meet us, we're walking down the street,
(48:11):
and we say, oh, did things are so bad over there?
Speaker 2 (48:15):
What can we do to help?
Speaker 1 (48:16):
How can we contribute to what you just laid out
as a vision for the day after in gays, in
the West Bank, in these Pasenian territories, what would you
say to us in terms of what we could actually do,
what we could actually go and physically accomplish that could
actually be helpful.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
In that endeavor.
Speaker 4 (48:36):
Definitely, there are a lot of things, a lot of
options actually that I've discovered that it can range from
going and being just being with people who are suffering.
I think that's a huge display of love and solidarity.
And you can look up the International Solidarity Movement or
(48:57):
different groups that are inviting, like you know, people from
the West to be in in Palestine. But there's there's
a basic thing that many of us in like the U.
S Or UK, who under these governments that are funding
and providing weapons to this genocide, is is to just
if you feel that there is something wrong here, then
(49:18):
tell someone, Tell tell the people around you, but also
tell your elected officials. Don't just I mean let them
know that they don't automatically get your votes. You know,
maybe I'm making a political ask here, but it's really
essential because humanity like depends on it. I think the
(49:38):
we we have a lot of power being citizens of
this or participants in the sort of empire that we're in.
Speaker 5 (49:48):
And so.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Yeah, I would encourage you. If you feel something's wrong,
then tell people and tell tell your tell the people
in power especially. But don't underestimate the power of your voice,
because we can't do this alone. We can't just you know.
I will go on as many podcasts. This is my
first ever podcast, but yeah, yeah, spread the words for
(50:12):
what we've heard, heard and read and ask questions and telp.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Perfect perfect you heard you heard it here first. That's
what we can do. And I always say it on
the podcast. Your voice matters.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Your voice can make a difference to your activism, your advocacy.
It moves the needle. We've seen it in the United
States with environmental justice action happening domestically. The same is
true around the world. So you see something, say something,
If you feel something, say something. If someone is hurting
and suffering, say something. We have the ability, we have opportunities,
(50:48):
and we have access now with social media, with different
platforms to really reach out and be that voice. And
the Bible talks about being the hands and the feet
of Jesus, and we can do that in so many
different ways, with so much technology, and.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
I know that it's a difficult situation now, but there's
always hope and there's always an opportunity to make things
better than they currently are. So everybody go out and
do that. Lydia, thank you so much for your words.
Thank you for joining us on the podcast. Dr had
tim also he had to go back to work. Thank
(51:29):
you for joining us as well. This has been an
amazing conversation, Lydia. We are so thankful for your voice
and for your contribution to this conversation.
Speaker 4 (51:40):
I really thank you for using your platform in your
space to hear from us. It means the world.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Thank you so much, and thank you and thank you
for listening. This is the Environmental Justice Lab where we
are for the people and for the planet.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
We will see you next time.
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. My name is doctor
Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for joining me. And
we are quickly getting to the end of this year,
and so I am preparing to go on my holiday
break for the month of December. I'm excited about it.
I get to spend some time with the family, do
(00:21):
some shopping, do a lot of eating, and maybe take
a few trips. We'll see how it goes, but it's
going to be time for the holiday break. But I
did not want to leave you without any episodes for
the holidays, and so I wanted to share with you
a conversation I had with two Palestinian engineers. One is
(00:46):
a father, doctor Hatim L. Sied and his daughter, Lydia L. Sied.
The father is an environmental engineer and the daughter is
a biomedical engineer. They are both Palestinian, and I had
the opportunity to talk to them about the environmental situation
(01:08):
and the issues and all that's going on in guys
that during this war that's taking place, has been going
on for well over a year now, and we had
a great conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So it was so good.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
We had to record two different times just to get
all of our thoughts together and to really have a
discussion we want to have, and so I want to
share those with you over the next couple of weeks
during the holiday season, because I don't want you to
forget that the fight for justice, to fight for environmental justice,
(01:43):
the fight to enable all of us to have and
to enjoy this environment equally. It doesn't end when the
holidays begin, and in fact, a lot of times the
holidays and when we feel it most acutely, we don't
have what we needed. And so we record these conversations
a few months ago, and I've been editing them and
(02:06):
I've been kind of nervous about it. I'm not I
wasn't sure when to put them out. You know, when
I start talking about Palestine, start talking about war, start
talking about environmental injustice as it relates to those kinds
of things, I get nervous and I'm not sure if
I'm presenting the conversations well, if I'm representing the issues well,
(02:26):
because I'm not as verse in them as I am
with us issues. But this is important information, This is
an important discussion that needs to be heard and understood.
And so I over the next couple of weeks will
present to you our discussions, and so, without further ado,
(02:47):
I want to share with you a conversation I've had
with the l size Edges about environmental injustice in Palestine,
not just during this war, but just in general, because
it's been very difficult living life there, trying to raise
a family there, trying to exist in the way that
(03:09):
allows you to reach your full potential, and so please
enjoy this conversation. I enjoyed having the conversation, and so
without further ado, please enjoy part one of my conversation
with the Lsayeges regarding environmental injustice in Palestine. Welcome to
(03:52):
the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host, doctor Leslie Joseph.
Thank you so much for joining us, and I say
us because I have two very very special guests with
us today on the podcast. I'm excited for this conversation.
I know you're gonna learn a lot and enjoy it.
We have, first and foremost, doctor hat Tim Elsiek. He
(04:15):
is a licensed professional engineer, the environmental engineer extraordinaire. I'm
so glad that he is here, Doctor hot Tim.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
How are you.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Better than I deserve? I will say, I'm fine I'm fine,
Thank you. Good to see you this morning.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Perfect, It's good to see you too, thanks for being here.
And along with him is his daughter, the beautiful Lydia Elsie.
She is a biomedical engineer. Lydia, how are you this morning.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
I'm definitely glad to be here. Thank you, Doctor Joseph
for inviting us.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
No problem, Thank you for being here and the reason
I wanted you to come. I don't know those of
you who listened to the podcast may have known that.
Earlier this year, I did a series of episodes on Palestine.
I wanted to really think through the environmental injustices that
have occurred, not just now currently, but throughout its history.
And I was so thrilled to meet doctor hot Tim
(05:15):
and Lyddy because they are both Palestinian, they are both engineers,
and they are both very attuned and plugged into the
environmental issues that are occurring in Palestine, and they agreed
to talk to me about it, and so that is fantastic.
Thank you so much for coming in. Before we even
get into all of those things, just tell our listeners
(05:37):
a little bit about yourself, your upbringing, your connections to Palestine,
and just paint the picture for all of us who
have never been there, who don't know what it's like.
Just share what you want us to know about yourself
and about Palestine.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Absolutely, Doad, do you want to go first? You're a
generation closer.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Well, I'll say you know. I come from a long
history of family that has lived in Palestine, mostly in
the city of Gaza. Although my dad was an obstetrician
guynecologist in Kuwait, he worked there for a long part
(06:23):
of his life until he passed away.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
His father, my grandfather, was.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Worked for the railroad, the British railroad system in Palestine
before nineteen forty eight. He was killed in the nineteen
forty eight war. My great grandfather were mostly merchants and professionals,
so in a mostly a lot of Augradian farmer community,
(06:58):
but they were more in the fashion and in the mercantile.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
So yeah, I grew up.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Actually part of my life was was in Kuwait, but
but we would go in summers and visit our our
home in in Gaza. In Palestine, it wasn't as often
because travel has always been hard and we had to
get certain permits and it wasn't easy to get them,
(07:30):
and it costs a lot of money, but we always
knew that it was our home. And in the Middle East,
you know, if you're born somewhere, it doesn't you don't
get the citizenship of that country. That's very different than
the Western world. It's it's what your parents citizenship is,
you know. So that was a sort of a different upbringing.
(07:52):
But I've always loved to go back home. I've always
seen Palestine, Gaza as my home, our family house there
and our relatives, and was always a special time, always
wanting to go back, and eventually did.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
I So to add to that, there's also my mom's
side of the family. My grandfather from from Gaza also
for many generations before nineteen forty eight, and my grandmother
from Yaffa which is now known as Tel Aviv, and they, Yeah,
we have family all over the land of that's that's
(08:35):
now called Israel and the West Bank and Gaza, and
I've been lucky enough to to go visit, and I'm
sure I'll share more about what I saw. But I didn't,
you know, get to go to Gaza, because there has
been before before this latest escalation, a seventeen year blockade,
(09:01):
and so but that's where my grandmother is right now.
And that's part of the reason that we're talking here today,
because because through her eyes we see so much of
the pain and destruction and justice that you know has
(09:23):
always been there but is being visited in really a
high genocidal volume on Gaza right now. So that's kind
of the connection we have today. And I do hope
that soon I'll get to go be with be with
our family again.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. That's a beautiful picture.
And just for our listeners, in case you're unaware of
the history, the reason the year nineteen forty eight keeps
coming up in this discussion so far is because that
is the year when the modern state of Israel was established.
And in order to establish that modern state. And I
(10:08):
don't know how you would describe this Lydia and Hatem,
but from what I've read and what I've understood, there
was an expulsion of the previous Palestinian population to make
room for Jews to come from all over the world,
dealing with persecution all over YEurope, all over different parts
(10:29):
of the known world at that point, coming to Israel,
and the displacement of Palestinians from that land to create
and establish that state is there is the conditions under
which a lot of what you're sharing has occurred, and
so I don't want that to be missed by our listeners.
There's history far beyond you know, October seventh, or twenty sixteen,
(10:54):
or twenty fourteen, whatevery year. You believe, the conflicts have
really ramped up. From the very beginning, there was a
lot of issues in this region. And I don't know
if you would point to that establishment as the kind
of beginning of that, but I know for me, just
reading and trying to learn, I see that as a
(11:15):
really major milestone from where things began to where we
are today. So thank you for sharing that. I really
really appreciate it. And to go along with that, you know,
we're in the West. I'm in South Carolina. I think
you are both in Atlanta, Georgia. We're in the South,
and I don't know about you. But the idea of
(11:40):
the Middle East and Israel, Palestine and the Arab world,
the way I hear it in the news where I
see it in the media, I'm pretty sure what I
see and what I hear isn't really the case and
doesn't really fairly represent that part of the world, And
so I wonder from your perspectives. Cut I know, for
(12:03):
me as a as a Black American, I mean, when
I see our depictions on TV up until maybe the
last couple of years, maybe since Obama was elected, the
depictions have not been favorable, not been very kind, and
very stereotypically negative. And so I wonder if you've had
that same experience, just if you in movies or when
(12:23):
there's news about, you know, the Middle Eastern region of
the world, or if you talk to friends or colleagues
about what's going on. You know, I would love to
hear your perspective on what you see and how you
experience that, and what your thoughts are about the depiction.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
And we'll start with Lydia first.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Sure, sure, yeah, there's there's a wide a wide range
of like views and responses. But but mostly what I
would I experience in my daily life and in and
even media is if there's not like some flare up
(13:06):
or or Gaza is not showing up on the news,
people actually are quite silent, avoidant of of even acknowledging
or saying, you know, saying saying that someone is Palestinian,
is it is a dirty word, or or when I
when I express when people ask me, you know, where's
your family from? After I say Palestine or Gaza, people
(13:26):
are My experience has been silence, and and it's been
you know, just a little. It's it's disappointing because I
love to take an opportunity to to humanize and to
share my culture and just like anyone else. And then
of course there's the extreme depictions and and of like
(13:49):
terrorism and and just like this, once it does come out,
Palestinians are equated with terrorism and violence and and you
know whatever, like resistance groups that are fighting like Hamas.
So there's a lot of I think people see me
(14:14):
and they don't quite say it out loud to to
to me as a young woman, I don't look like this,
and as a Christian, I don't fit the stereotypes. But
but in in media and in and if they don't
know my background, I think that is is the only
like one dimensional uh label put on on Palestinians in
(14:37):
my experience. And there's lots of misc inceptions, which yeah,
I don't know if Dad, you want to add to
anything that I said, but I can talk about some
common misconceptions as well.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I agree with that there is, there is a spectrum.
But I've said that many many times before or the
when you use the word Middle East, it is used
as a by the western wards as a shifting geography
(15:10):
where there is trouble. That's how That's how I said.
It's like, where is the Middle East? Where is there
there is trouble and people look different and so so
what what I've seen is is ranged. But but certainly
I'm seeing more and more in this polarized political environment
(15:32):
in in the United States. And I'm not a political pundit,
but I see it. It's obviously there are two polls
you know that that are pulling in different directions that
there is. It has become a binary thing, so to speak.
It's it's you're either good or bad. And if you're
(15:53):
you know, Palestinian for the most part, your band and
and and and people fail to understand that fail to
apply the same principles or or or guiding thoughts that
they apply to other countries. You know, we don't like
(16:14):
the leadership, but the people, you know, they are oppressed,
they are suffering, or or we don't like this subgroup,
or that they are behaving in a in an manner
inconsistent with human justice or mercy.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
But then, but.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Understand that there are people who didn't choose their leadership,
so that's that's not afforded to Palestinians. You know, we
are Lydia and I our family, our family at large.
We are against violence. We don't support violence in any sort.
You know, human life is precious, invaluable. Every person is
(17:03):
created on the image of God. That's part of our faith,
regardless of.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Their ethnic origin or or anything else.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
So we see it this way, and for us to
defend every time, you know, most of the time, we
have to defend the fact that we are Palestinian if
we are even giving the opportunity. You know, if you
say Palestinian, it shuts the conversation down, or you know,
you're why do you support Hamas? It's like who told
(17:36):
you I do? Who told you I support this?
Speaker 5 (17:38):
This? You know, And then I try to.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Help them understand there are people you're talking about, millions
of people, and you're just categorizing them into one. And sorry,
maybe this may not addressed exactly your question, but the
movie certainly have contributed a lot. Hollywood has been an
instrumental part. The media has been an instrumental part. You know,
(18:07):
the media is definitely most of the media is biased.
But but social media, good or bad, love it or
hate it, has exposed a lot of different narratives that
that that are challenging people.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
But at the same time, people.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Have been carrying the narratives that they have been taught
and and taking only what fits their narrative and carrying
it forward. It's it's a it's a it's been as
much a burden to to to try to explain to people,
(18:53):
to to find those who are ready to hear what
does a Palestinian mean?
Speaker 5 (18:58):
What does being Palestine and involved?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
And then just to continue that that train of thought
that you said, you had some misconceptions that are pretty
common that you kind of wanted to address and kind
of clear out.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, feel free to go ahead.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Because I want to know and I want my misconceptions
to be cleared as well, So.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Teach us absolutely.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Well, there's there's just a few common ones that I
wanted to point out this time, and that come up
frequently in conversation or in media. And so like many
people assume this is a religious conflict or a religious battle.
That's you know, unending or whatever. There's lots of different
(19:43):
theologies around it, especially in the Western Christian world that
we live in. And so people are often surprised when
they find out that we're Palestinian Christian and that there
is like a long history of Palaestian Christians and that
they experienced the same experience, the same discrimination that our
Muslim brothers and sisters do. And so that's one aspect
(20:06):
that it's it's more of a political colonial conflict than
and and and the other is yeah, aside along with
that colonialism, h thread, it's not an equal conflict. It's
one group has if you just look at the facts,
(20:26):
military and nuclear weapons, they extract resources and and dominate
and restrict the movement of another. They have, you know,
all the civil liberties and and self determination that any
any people should have, while that group can arrest, kill, bomb,
(20:47):
steal from the other at any point in time and
and go unpunished. There's virtually no repercussions for when that's
done by military or just regular citizens of Israel. And
so yeah, and it can even illustrate in the GDP
like fifty five thousand per capita per year for for
(21:10):
Israelis and then in for Palestinians, it goes down to
less than five thousand per year in Gaza before the
last latest escalation, just like twelve hundred per GDP or
around like per capita per year. So but when when
we when we express this inequality and injustice, people people
(21:32):
find it hard to believe, and and it's not the
picture that that they've received. And so it takes maybe
a few times of sharing or a few facts or
a few like articles to truly to kind of for
them to believe us, I guess, and and often we
don't get that opportunity. And then the last it kind
(21:53):
of is relevant to our conversation here. There's this popularized
notion that that the state of Israel is making the
desert bloom or making the desert green, and I hear
people excited about that some friends here in my own community.
And there's some of the misconceptions around there is that
(22:16):
Israel is diverting resources water and like the natural resources
of the land from Palestinian areas to the settlements or
to these desert places. And actually one aspect of this
is over eight hundred you can see it in the trees,
(22:40):
over eight hundred thousand olive trees have been uprooted by
israel authorities and settlers since nineteen sixty seven when they
took over and occupied the Palestinian areas, and for what remains,
Palestinians are often restricted from accessing their land and when
(23:01):
they are harvesting all of us like that's that's a
season of common attacks by settlers, by by Israel settlers
in the area. And and in a kind of green colonialism,
which is which is a fascinating concept, not just in Palestine,
but throughout throughout the world, throughout you know, the continent
(23:22):
of Africa and so forth. But in this particular iteration
in Palestine. Over two hundred and fifty million non native,
non fruit bearing pine trees have been planted in these
settlements in Israel Palestine, and it's just a picture of
like this wasn't how it was meant to be, but
(23:44):
but it's a common like thing that people are decided
about let's plant trees and in the Holy Land, and
it's actually quite harmful and reshaping the environment to be
not the way that it was supposed to be. So yeah,
there's there's a lot to unlearn and uncover with us
(24:05):
and and so yeah, My encouragement is if people can
come visit and see, you can learn a lot that way.
Always ask questions and don't don't take any narrative that
that rejects the humanity of another person or group, because yeah,
I think that just accepting narratives from media and from
(24:27):
uh television and from just other other people, it can
it does create these these misconceptions, and we need to
you know, I encourage people to ask questions.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, no, that's that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So and that leads us into our discussion about environmental
injustice in pastime. But before we get there, I have
to push a little bit more because I've never heard
this term green colonialism. I know that there have been campaigns,
there have been movements, especially I'm a Christian also, so
especially in the Christian world, we want to in our
(25:01):
minds at least invest in what we call the Holy Land.
And so the idea of planting a tree has always
been the way that we've been taught to connect ourselves
to that land. Right, And so you have these campaigns.
You can give a certain donation, you can give a
certain nut, you can plant a tree, have your name
associated with a tree, and you can kind of feel
(25:23):
as though you're contributing in a positive way to this,
Like you said, desert land that needs life, that needs
vibrance and vitality. We can actually participate in partner in
that endeavorance. So when you talk about green colonialism, could
you say a little bit more about what that looks
like in Powstide and what it means. So you plant
(25:45):
a pine tree, a thousand pine trees. From our perspective here,
it's green, it gives life. It from a technical engineering perspective,
it sucks in potentially harmful air pollution, and it contributes
to a more beautiful area. And we feel like we're
(26:06):
we're a part of that. And so what you're talking
about is the idea that that kind of intervention can
be harmful and hurtful to the people that live there.
And so what how how is that the case? And
what would be a better way of investing ourselves in
these areas?
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Definitely, yeah, I'm I'm actually still learning about green colonialism
in Palestine and in the wider region because it looks
it looks different as like Western economies invest in specific
types of like like solar panels in the desert, and
that don't quite work because they get covered with sand.
(26:49):
And so there's just there's some different like serving the
energy needs or the the responses to climate change in
the in the West, serving them by by explaining the
resources of of countries that don't have as high income
(27:10):
or so forth. So but specifically in Palestine, yeah, there,
you know exactly, it sounds great to plant trees and
to invest in and that's what I mean. I do
that here with with in like I think it's trees Atlanta.
I've planted trees and and but one thing we do
is is work out in base of species, because when
(27:32):
you have like plants that are not meant for indigenous
to the land, then it extracts resources in a way.
Or like in addition to pine trees, I think eucalyptus
plants have been plant planted, and that's very water extractive
in a place that while while still being luscious and
(27:53):
producing olive trees and fruits and peaches and mangoes, it's
it's still water is water scarce. And so there there
are very specific things that the land has been just
in a way designed for that that bringing over pine
trees from Europe isn't the what it was meant for.
(28:15):
And so so I think the response to that is
my encouragement is to trust Palestinians who have been indigenous
to the land and stewards of the land and very
agriculturally savvy. Actually, a lot of the times Talstenian laborers
are brought into Israel to to work the land because
they know best.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
And so.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
Yeah, I think let's let's Palsenians lead the way for
care and teach others. I think that's just missing from
like this idea that that Palestinians have even intelligence about
how to how to care for the land. Yeah, that's
(28:58):
my that's my thought, and that go ahead.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Yeah, and I'll add to this the way the laws
are manipulated over there and used to the benefit of
one group against the other. You know from from Ottoman
laws that you know, if you don't cultivate the land
for so many years, then the state has the right
to confiscate it. Then they confiscated And and why weren't
(29:22):
they able to cultivate the land, whether it's because there
is a wall or they can travel to their land
and suddenly it becomes the state. And for a Western society, oh,
they are dedicating or using this land as a public
area apart, you know, and okay, and suddenly next time
and in a few years, this park is converted into
(29:45):
settlement houses for the benefit of a certain group against
the other. So you see this from a Western perspective. Oh,
you're using land as a park for everybody's benefit. And
suddenly you know you have population growth, whatever that population
comes from, even from outside the country. Now you want
to build housing for the benefit of the people who
(30:06):
are coming. Wow, another great thing, leaving alone what this
land was. You know, there is a park that's called
Canada Park and Israel that's built on the ruins of
Palestinian villages. You know, you go there, you see a
beautiful park that's about seven k square kilometers, but you know,
(30:30):
who tells you the history of who was there and
where that was built? You know, And that's something where
you go there, you see a green park, but you
don't see the history of the people and the villages,
people who lived there, and the heritage for however many
centuries they lived there.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
It's gone. But what you see is a beautiful park. Oh,
this is green, this is beautiful. I went there, I
saw this, and you come back with this idea which
which you know again it's it's to the benefit of
(31:09):
one group of people.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
And the exclusion or the destruction of another along with
their heritage.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Yeah, that is a very clear picture of what's happening
and how these interventionist efforts can really damage a Palsing,
the community of PAALSINGI area in ways that I guess
for us in the West, we would say it's unintentional.
But there is intentionality with every move that's made, and
(31:40):
we have to be aware of the fact that nothing happened.
These things don't happen by accident. These things are intentional
and there's a purpose behind them, and it's it's it's true.
It's true to learn about them too, because I just
would not have known these things. And so staying on
that same train of thought in the same environmental kind
(32:01):
of concerns and issues. I'm curious. You know, you're both engineers.
We both have very intimate understandings of how systems work.
Water systems, wastewater systems, food systems, all these different types
of systems. Have you been to Palestine or any of
the Palesainian territories. Have you had an opportunity to kind
of work on some of these types of issues and
(32:23):
maybe use your expertise to try to enhance the quality
of life there.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
And if so, how and if not why not?
Speaker 5 (32:35):
Yeah, so, so I'll start. I've had the honor to
work on.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Wastewater and stormwater projects in the mid nineties in the
city of Gaza under the US eight US AID Agency
for International Development, on such building stormwater uh storage ponds
(33:04):
and building a wastewater system, looking at the wastewater treatment
plant for the city of Gaza and improving the.
Speaker 5 (33:12):
Facilities over there. Those are all.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
Things I worked on again a US government project funded
by by the United States. So I've seen those of
worked on them and went even through challenges for one times,
like you know, this plant was designed long time ago
by by an Israeli company because Israel it was controlling Gaza,
(33:40):
and and then we look at the chlorine tank and
it's like they are empty.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
We can't use them.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
You have to disinfect treated water before you discharge it
into the sea. And it's like why, Well, because chlorine
gas is chlorine is a hazard, or or it could
be used for other purposes.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
So there you go.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
You build the chlorine tanks, but there is no chlorine.
You don't disinfect the water. This is just one of
the things that that intricacies or nuances that that people
here don't think, well, you have a waste water system, well,
we can't use it the way.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
It was designed.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
And sadly, you know, I've seen those things. I've seen
them on the news being destroyed one after another in
the in the current that's right war and and it
breaks my heart and sometimes even breaks my heart that
the source of funding for both the building.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
And the destruction are the same. It breaks my heart.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
And I'll say something I didn't say earlier, because I've
seen a lot of people, you know, educating about the situation.
They're pulling up a stool and a power point and
speak with such authority when when a lot of facts
are just strong, they use them as facts they are wrong.
I'll tell you don't agree or disagree with me. You
(35:07):
can agree or disagree. I just invite you to be curious,
check everything we have shared, learn stories, and then make
your judgment. Don't base your judgment or your position on
you know, a ten minute presentation by somebody who've been
(35:27):
there for two weeks came with a specific narrative. Anyway,
back to engineering, Yeah, Lydia, you want to say.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Something, Go ahead, Lydia, what have you like?
Speaker 4 (35:42):
Yeah, I'm kind of young in my career. I'm a
biomedical engineer by training, and I don't know if you
can see it too, but there are so many needs
in terms of medical devices and just a need for
physical and mental healing and well being in throughout Palesigin,
(36:06):
but especially in Gaza obviously right now, So so many
Just if you just think about the thousands of amputees
children who will need new prosthetics every every you know
they're going to be growing and or or you know,
like there's so many different aspects even outside of my
engineering field, of needs for therapy and that sort of thing.
(36:28):
But so so I see the need and it's it's
really where my heart is right now. I don't know
what kind of opportunities there there will be to help.
I'm looking for them, but but really, what's most evident
to me in order to be able to like help
(36:48):
come in with devices or design for what people need,
we need a ceasefire, which is so basic to say,
but healthcare workers have been being killed over and over
and over and and like new patients are are coming
in every every single day, just overwhelmingly and horrifically in
(37:11):
such bad shape. So and like supplies are so scarce.
Anesthesia is so like almost like people, you know, doctor's
complete amputations without anesthesia and without the necessities. And so
there is so much need and and so much need
(37:32):
being created actively through the current genocide that you know,
I've seen my work, even though it's not quite engineering,
it's uh is as to be an advocate and to
ask for a ceasefire in order to be able to help,
in order to make a way. Yeah, because I can't
(37:55):
do one job if I don't do the first. And yeah,
and the bless thing I want to say is that
you know, there's not just engineers and capable people outside,
but there's capable engineers and doctors and designers in Gaza itself,
in Palestine itself, and they're being killed, and their families
(38:19):
are being killed, and their projects that they've worked on
have been destroyed. A relative of mine ran the like
newly established cancer treatment wing at La Baptist Hospital in Gaza,
and that was one of the first things to be destroyed.
And she worked the years raising money and buying the equipment.
(38:41):
So like these these projects and these people are are
so capable and so smart and educated and able, but
their lives and livelihood are being taken away from them
because of who they are and where they were born.
So yeah, my I ask first before before you know
(39:02):
anyone is able to help, is stop bombing.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I've called for ceasefires numerous
times on the podcast, and I've discussed, you know, some
facts and figures regarding you know, water quality, wastewater management,
air pollution, air quality, infrastructure in general. We don't have
to revisit those things. But what I do want to
ask you, and you mentioned this obviously earlier, but I
(39:28):
want to just make it as clear as possible from your.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Perspectives, what do you believe? What do you think?
Speaker 1 (39:38):
How do you feel what's necessary to correct these injustice,
to correct all the harm that has been inflicted on
these populations. I say populations because I mean for those
of us listening, I mean there's the guys A Strip,
there's the West Banks East groups from there're separate, and
(40:00):
they're across that region, and so I imagine that there
are different challenges in each of those areas. I don't
want to just generalize too much, but what do you
think actually needs to happen. Obviously, it cees fire, obviously,
releasing hostages. Obviously people going back to presuming whatever's left
(40:21):
of their cities and homes. But once we get there,
I mean, then what the water is still dirty, the
air is still clouded, there's no place to go if
you're sick, there's no medicine, there's no food.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
What needs to happen to try to address those things?
Speaker 4 (40:42):
Definitely?
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Everybody is talking about, well, a lot of people are
talking about the day after, and and it's like, you know,
people are not ready to sign treaties. We would love
to see peace.
Speaker 5 (41:03):
Lydia and I and.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Whole family would love to see peace and people living
together in harmony and peace. But there is so much
pain that has been caused, you know, so much, so
much hurt that that needs to be this healing, this,
this justice, this you know people people want to be healed,
(41:28):
people are are orphaned, people are berieved. Parents that there
is so much on the human level that needs to happen.
After a ceasefire, after the stop of the bombing and
(41:49):
the hostilities, there is there is so much on the
human level that needs to happen before we talk politics.
It's unfortunate, you know, it's un fortunate, but politics and
treaties are not the solution. Our world leaders, who who
who watch this for months cannot be the ones who
(42:12):
broke her peace right now. It's the humans who have
the mercy and the justice and the desire to heal.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
People. Those that's what's needed.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Shoulders to cry on hugs, you know, doctors to replace
the ones who were killed, Teachers to replace the ones
who were killed, people to tell the children it's going
to be okay. I don't know that there is so
much trauma there. There is irreparable damage, whether from from
(42:47):
from famine or from hunger, from you know, the bombing,
from the the.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
Just the trauma, the trauma.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Wow, yeah, yeah, so you're talking.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
I mean, I was thinking about how we always talk
about rebuilding, Flick, but what you're talking about is deeper
than that. It's more of a societal almost like a
reorientation of what life is going to be like and
what life needs to become in order for there to
(43:29):
actually be an opportunity for peace, not even just okay,
we're done fighting. We get the people in the room,
have a summit and leave with a document that we
agree will govern our territories and countries. You're talking about
(43:49):
going in with healers and with people who can touch
on a human level to restore or people's I guess
in this case just sense of life and well being and.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Or humanity or huanity even I mean those have been
called human animals, those people have been ignored. That needs
to be a reversal of this dehumanization. You know, when
we care about one conflict in another part of the
world and see these people are being bounded or this
children's hospital or whatever. But then in another conflict, we say, well,
(44:30):
it's those people who launched trackets from it or whatever
we try to justify. You know, Okay, how are the
people who justified my suffering as a person in guys
are going to be the ones who are whom I
will have to trust to bring healing, justice and peace. Yes,
(44:51):
there is something very deep that that this is different
from other situations that I've seen I've.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Known about lydia. What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 4 (45:03):
Yeah, I think just taking it to the I love
this to me. It's a biblical idea of restorative justice
or a principle of restorative justice, and there's you know,
it might be wishful thinking to say that Palestinians need
reparations or you know, but but really, you know, restorative
(45:27):
justice is not is contrasted with retributive and punishment and
more killing and death. There is there's a need for
like a lifting up. The person who is higher and
who has the equal has the rights and the and
the capabilities and the and should be invested. Just like
(45:47):
we are very privileged in the US, I want to
be invested in lifting up my you know, downtrodden and
hurt like fellow humans, whether they're in Palestine or Sudan
or if you hope yet like there is ah, I
(46:09):
want to lift someone else up. And so I think
my ask is that people trust Palestinian you know, you
offer trust so that they can trust you. Let them lead,
you know, just like we said, they're they're quite knowledgeable
(46:29):
about the land and how to steward it. Also very
educated in like taking care of wounds and trauma therapy
and and those things give them opportunity to lead it.
I'm very wishful. I know that the international community loves
to get their hands into life there. But there is
(46:51):
a deep, deep restoration feeling and it starts need and
and it starts it can at least start with you
and me as as US citizens or you and me
as just individual citizens of the world, to value and
respect and hold in high regard this, Uh, these fellow
human beings of ours, so so much work to do
(47:15):
and and like, yeah, we've mentioned that there's so many
preconditions for that work as well. But that's the invitation,
is to love and value and and and hold up
uphold the the well being and rights of another person
that you you're not connected to.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Maybe yeah, no, that's great, that's great. I mean, we're
we're running out of time. I really appreciate all of
this amazing knowledge and perspective that you've provided for us.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
I want to end with this.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
So all that we talked about in terms of what
we can do and how it can look, like doctor
Attempt said the day after, help me on a tangible,
practical level. In our listeners as well, what would you
say to us you meet us, we're walking down the street,
(48:11):
and we say, oh, did things are so bad over there?
Speaker 2 (48:15):
What can we do to help?
Speaker 1 (48:16):
How can we contribute to what you just laid out
as a vision for the day after in gays, in
the West Bank, in these Pasenian territories, what would you
say to us in terms of what we could actually do,
what we could actually go and physically accomplish that could
actually be helpful.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
In that endeavor.
Speaker 4 (48:36):
Definitely, there are a lot of things, a lot of
options actually that I've discovered that it can range from
going and being just being with people who are suffering.
I think that's a huge display of love and solidarity.
And you can look up the International Solidarity Movement or
(48:57):
different groups that are inviting, like you know, people from
the West to be in in Palestine. But there's there's
a basic thing that many of us in like the U.
S Or UK, who under these governments that are funding
and providing weapons to this genocide, is is to just
if you feel that there is something wrong here, then
(49:18):
tell someone, Tell tell the people around you, but also
tell your elected officials. Don't just I mean let them
know that they don't automatically get your votes. You know,
maybe I'm making a political ask here, but it's really
essential because humanity like depends on it. I think the
(49:38):
we we have a lot of power being citizens of
this or participants in the sort of empire that we're in.
Speaker 5 (49:48):
And so.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Yeah, I would encourage you. If you feel something's wrong,
then tell people and tell tell your tell the people
in power especially. But don't underestimate the power of your voice,
because we can't do this alone. We can't just you know.
I will go on as many podcasts. This is my
first ever podcast, but yeah, yeah, spread the words for
(50:12):
what we've heard, heard and read and ask questions and telp.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Perfect perfect you heard you heard it here first. That's
what we can do. And I always say it on
the podcast. Your voice matters.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Your voice can make a difference to your activism, your advocacy.
It moves the needle. We've seen it in the United
States with environmental justice action happening domestically. The same is
true around the world. So you see something, say something,
If you feel something, say something. If someone is hurting
and suffering, say something. We have the ability, we have opportunities,
(50:48):
and we have access now with social media, with different
platforms to really reach out and be that voice. And
the Bible talks about being the hands and the feet
of Jesus, and we can do that in so many
different ways, with so much technology, and.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
I know that it's a difficult situation now, but there's
always hope and there's always an opportunity to make things
better than they currently are. So everybody go out and
do that. Lydia, thank you so much for your words.
Thank you for joining us on the podcast. Dr had
tim also he had to go back to work. Thank
(51:29):
you for joining us as well. This has been an
amazing conversation, Lydia. We are so thankful for your voice
and for your contribution to this conversation.
Speaker 4 (51:40):
I really thank you for using your platform in your
space to hear from us. It means the world.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Thank you so much, and thank you and thank you
for listening. This is the Environmental Justice Lab where we
are for the people and for the planet.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
We will see you next time.
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