September 23, 2025 • 28 mins
What happens when the leaders in your hometown turn a Black neighborhood into a dumping ground?
In part 2 of our conversation, environmental scientist and advocate Kibri Hutchison Everett takes us back to my hometown of Rock Hill, South Carolina, to confront the legacy of the so-called “Trash Pile.” What began with the placement of unlined landfill in the heart of a Black neighborhood, the Trash Pile stands as a stark example of how racist policy choices create sacrifice zones in the United States. It is now a neighborhood with no water, sanitation, or city services, despite being within city limits.
Kibri shares how this desolate community still bears the scars of contamination, land loss, and disinvestment, and why she purchased a parcel of land there to transform it into a test site for community science and grassroots advocacy. Together, we explore how pollution, policy, and poverty intersect, and how data, organizing, and courage can shift the fight from environmental injustice to environmental and economic liberation.
This is not just a story about Rock Hill, South Carolina or even the plight of Black communities in the South. It’s about the structures that allow entire communities to be written off, and the movements rising to reclaim land, dignity, and a livable future.
Connect with Kibri Everett
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kibri-hutchison-everett-646b051b3/
Instagram: @the.enviro.vegan and @key.environmental.consulting
Websites: www.keyenvi.com & www.palmettofutures.org
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support.
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
In part 2 of our conversation, environmental scientist and advocate Kibri Hutchison Everett takes us back to my hometown of Rock Hill, South Carolina, to confront the legacy of the so-called “Trash Pile.” What began with the placement of unlined landfill in the heart of a Black neighborhood, the Trash Pile stands as a stark example of how racist policy choices create sacrifice zones in the United States. It is now a neighborhood with no water, sanitation, or city services, despite being within city limits.
Kibri shares how this desolate community still bears the scars of contamination, land loss, and disinvestment, and why she purchased a parcel of land there to transform it into a test site for community science and grassroots advocacy. Together, we explore how pollution, policy, and poverty intersect, and how data, organizing, and courage can shift the fight from environmental injustice to environmental and economic liberation.
This is not just a story about Rock Hill, South Carolina or even the plight of Black communities in the South. It’s about the structures that allow entire communities to be written off, and the movements rising to reclaim land, dignity, and a livable future.
Connect with Kibri Everett
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kibri-hutchison-everett-646b051b3/
Instagram: @the.enviro.vegan and @key.environmental.consulting
Websites: www.keyenvi.com & www.palmettofutures.org
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support.
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for being with
us because we are back once again with Kibrie Hutchison evert.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Kibrie, how are you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
I've been good on this Yeah, very nice. Uh not
too hot summer day.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Nice. Nice.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
So we've been talking about the issues kind of in
the Carolines where we're from, different things that we've seen,
things that you've been involved that you've worked on specifically.
Now I want to transition to one of the big
things that we talked about before we started an interviewing
while we were kind of here to discussed, and that's
the trash pile, the trash pile in rock Hill.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Can you tell us what that is and how it
came to be the trash pile?
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Right, yes, yeah, and the trash pile probably is not
the politically correct term, but that is the term that
we black residents anyway in rock Hill refer to it as.
So the trash pile is actually a neighborhood. It's a
neighborhood on the southern part of our hometown, rock Hill,
(01:33):
South Carolina, and it is the site of a former
landfill I'm not sure of the years, but I think
the landfill existed through the nineties. I want to say
early nineties. Maybe I don't know when it started, but
but anyway, the city of rock Hill decided to dump
their trash in this area, in this neighborhood where people
(01:55):
were living on this part, this large parcel of land
and that wasn't lined. There was no lining, so it
was just a surface landfill. You, leslie, probably know what
the proper correct term, but it was an unlined landfill,
which is problematic for multiple reasons which I'm sure you
can explain better than me.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
But essentially, this is a the trash file.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
A is A is and was a very poor neighborhood
in the southern part of town that, through races, racist practices,
did not have services. So you might think, oh, this
must be way out in the in the sticks of
South Carolina somewhere.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
No it is not.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
It is right off of a major highway in our town.
But this this area, just like where I grew up
in my street, in which actually it was common and
I guess still is common. But these areas where black
people lived, also largely in the South especially, did not
(02:58):
have cities services. So even the street I grew up on,
I mean, it's also not in the middle of nowhere,
it's right in town. But we did not have city water,
we didn't have you know, trash pickup. And if you
look at a lot of policy that has existed, especially
in the South, you'll see that black areas were often
(03:22):
excluded from these city services. So where I grew up,
you know, we were on whale water and like I mentioned,
you know, we didn't have you know, city services. So
same thing for the trash pow trash power. They didn't know,
they didn't The people who lived there did not you know,
have running water or sanitation.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
So yes, and this that is still the case there.
So the city has not brought the infrastructure to this
area of town. And in addition to that, they were
dumping their trash there in this neighborhood for years in
an unline landfill.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So that is what the trash pile is.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Okay, So huh okay. I didn't know all of that.
So the trash, I guess. My first question is did
the people living there name it?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
That? I'm guessing, so I need to ask my aunt
because she grew up there.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
My uncle's wife grew up there.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
But you know, all throughout high school, I mean that's
all I knew it was as the trash pile.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So I'm guessing.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So I'm guessing, okay, And so right now, currently the
trash pile has no city services.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
They have no sanitation services ran.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Warton, and they have no no waste, no waste pick
up either. Nobody gets to take the trash from the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Just nothing.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Correct, Yeah, no services at all. And you know there
there's a nonprofit I want to give them credit called
a Place for Hope who's tried for many years, decades
to help the residents there. And honestly, there aren't a
lot of residents who lived there currently because of lack
of services. They are still a few, but the Place
(05:09):
of Hope, they their nonprofit they ended up setting up
through funding. They fundraised and they set up like a
mobile unit like a trailer, and the trailer provided bathrooms
for the residents and provided the washing machines and dryers
(05:29):
from the wash their clothes and also showers and so
residents from the trash file neighborhood were used, are were
and are using this mobile unit to use the bathroom
and take a shower. Now, this particular mobile unit is
currently when I went last year, you know, it's in disrepair.
(05:50):
It's full of gold, the floors are falling in, and
so they're trying to raise more money. But I mean
the sad part is I mean, it's good that people
there aren't a lot of people in the trash bow.
The trash pile is composed of about one hundred and
sixty parcels, very small parcels of land. And I want
to mention that the main street what's called black There
(06:12):
are two main streets. One is Black Men Road and
the other is Joe Louis Boulevard, which makes me proud
that they named it, you know, after a prominent Black hero,
Joe Louis. But it's about one hundred and sixty parcels.
I'm not sure how many, maybe ten percent of those
are occupied currently. But this is an area where yeah,
(06:34):
black black land, black owned land. But the residents, the landowners,
you know, they can't really do anything with the land
one because you know, who knows what contamination exists. If
you drive through the neighborhood, the trees do not look healthy.
So I don't know what that might be an indication
of but but yeah, there's just no I mean, if
you can't use the bathroom, you can't wash your hand
(06:57):
any or take a shower, of course you're not gonna
stay there.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
So it's a pretty desolate neighborhood currently.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
And just for the listeners, I mean many of you listening.
I've talked about landfills before in the past, but just
so we can kind of get our bearings when Keebrie
talks about an unlined landfill, the idea is that when
you have a landfill that's constructed, you will put an
engineered liner under it because you want to catch any
(07:26):
rain water, any contamination that might come from the trash
itself before it hits the ground, because once it hits
the ground, you're contemnating the soil and potentially the groundwater
under the soil, depending on how how the water table is.
And so typically when you design a landfill, you have
(07:47):
a nice liner, you have groundwater monitoring wells to make
sure the water's not contaminated, and you do air monitoring
to ensure that you're actually aware of what's in the
air above the landfill to alert people if there's a problem.
And so what describing is what we would call an
(08:10):
engineering world, a dump. It's literally a dump, like somebody
drove up with their dump truck, dumped the trash and
left and they just kept doing it over and over.
It's not a landfill anymore. It's what you do when
you live in a place where you don't care about
(08:32):
the environment. You just want to get your trash away
from your neighborhood. You just go somewhere and dump it.
And so when you do that and it rains and
that water passes through the trash, it hits the ground.
Those contentments hit the soil, hit the ground water, and
now you have a place that is unlivable, uninhabitable. You
(08:54):
can't drink the water, you can't breathe, and you don't
want to.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Live near a dump. Nobody does.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
And so it's really unfortunate that this is the place
where Rock Hill, where we are both from, decided to
dump their trash and leave the residents with nothing, no services,
no opportunity to take care of themselves, no protection from
the environment, nothing at all. It's a horrible, horrible scenario,
(09:28):
and most people would associate this kind of scenario with
a very poor developing country, right, That's what you would
see in those types of areas where they can't afford
to have an engineered line, they can't afford to monitor,
they can't afford to provide search, so they don't. This
is good old United States of America. This is South Carolina,
(09:53):
this is in city limits. There's no reason why this
community should be dealing with this in the year twenty
twenty five. There's no reason for it at all. I
just want to put that out there because I don't
want there'd be any confusion about how horrible this condition
is and how unacceptable this scenario is in this community.
(10:19):
So let me ask you this. Then we're talking about
the trash pile. Is this something that you feel like,
is I don't know if you would say common. Do
you see it often? Are there connections or parallels between
how this community has been treated in terms of being
managed this way versus other black communities in South Carolina
(10:40):
across the South. What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, I think this probably is common. I think.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
Maybe not necessarily with trash or kind of surface level pollution,
but just no communities of color being in proximity to
pollution in the.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
South especially I think it is commonplace.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
I was a volunteer community scientist with a group called
Concerned Citizens of Cook County, which is in southern Georgia,
kind of near Valdosta, Georgia, and they are another example
of you know black Well, it's a small town. All
(11:28):
the black people live on one side of town, which
historically was a case in rock Hill as well. It
may be changing now, but but similar situation down in
Cook County, Georgia, and all the polluters are. If you
drive through this town, you can clearly see the difference.
The white side of town is green, you know, paved roads.
(11:51):
The black side of town is where the polluters are.
Roads are unpaved. And in this particular town, in the
black neighborhood, there is a polluter that has an open
flame going pretty much all day. I don't know what
they're doing. I forgot what the what they're making or manufacturing.
And going back to you know, the prison population, what
(12:13):
they from what I what the residents said. They hire
people who maybe just gotten out of prison, got out
into jail. They're putting them in these situations because they
you know, speak up, you're not going to complain. So
they have those kinds of people working, you know, in
there in this particular town, at this particular location. But
(12:34):
that is just another example where it's not surface level
land based pollution, but it's air pollution. You know, that's
happening clearly, you know, right in the middle of a
black neighborhood. And I think I mentioned too about Samson County.
I haven't been to that landfill, but from what I'm hearing,
it's a similar situation where the state's largest landfill is
(12:56):
right adjacent to, you know, a black neighborhood. And I'm
sure there are other examples, you know, in South Carolina.
But but yeah, I mean historically, yeah, I mean that
is America. That is you know, I'm sure people have
heard of nimbi, you know, not in my backyard. And
when people say not in my backyard, it goes to
somebody else's backyard.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Often those are communities of color.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yep, that's exactly right. You know.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
One thing I didn't mention earlier that you brought up,
which I appreciate, was we talked about the environment. It's
not just the air and water quality. It's like you
were saying, there are no paved roads. I imagine there's
no parks to play in, no green spaces, no trees,
no places to go and just spend time with your families.
(13:46):
It really is a desolate abandoned We call them sacrifice zones,
like you've sacrificed this part of town or whatever your
purpose was. And so that's what we're also seeing when
we talk about the track pile, talk about this areas
in Cook County, dealing in South Carolina. I'm thinking about
North Charleston, South Carolina, parts of rural North Carolina. This
(14:09):
is what we're seeing more and more of. But the
good thing is that there are people like you in
the world who have the training in the background and
who are trying to do something to make change. And
so what you told me before is that you've purchased
a parcel at the trash pile, and I guess you're
going to I don't know if you're going to move
(14:30):
into it, like live there. But what is your plan
with this land and what are you trying to accomplish
with your work at the trash pile?
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Yeah, so, yes, yeah, a parcel became available. It's a
very small parcel, so it was only about a tenth
of an acre, which the parcel. Surprisingly at the trash
pile are about that size most of them.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Now don't know what the story is on that.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I'm sure there's some reason why that's the case too,
but but yeah, I did recently purchase parcel there. What
I have in mind is, you know, having it as
an environmental test site.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
M hm.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
And so you know, I think I mentioned how like
the trees there just shows signs of distress. They don't
look healthy, so obviously there's something going on under the ground.
But I do want to do some you know, experiments there.
I'm not sure exactly what they're going to entail. You know,
(15:31):
it could be air, water, soil, all all of the
above really, because the trash file not only is the
site of a former landfill, but even to date, there
are multiple polluters within a one mile radius of the community.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So there's like a you know.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
An asphalt mine or a mine of some sort. I
can't remember, a rock corery. I think it's a rock cory,
a couple of other kind of chemical plants in close
proxy many you know to the site, so we could
do you know, air quality testing. And of course, yeah
I mentioned the water and soil, but the long term.
(16:09):
I mean, you know, the bigger picture, let's say, I mean,
we see, we know that there's contamination there. As far
as I know, there's never really been any kind of
environmental impact studies you know, of the property of the
site there. There's been no reason to I guess, you know,
unless you know, some developer wants.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
To come along and.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
And turn you know, turn it into something else, and
maybe you know, people at the local government will become
interested in trying to do something, but it won't help
the native people who are from there, which is often
the case, you know, will helped you know, big business
or some developers. But but yeah, kind of the the
bigger picture in my mind is, you know, we often
(16:52):
hear about you know, black land loss and how you know,
so much of the land, especially farmland, that you know,
black people had, you know, at the turn of the
twentieth century, you know, it's gone. It doesn't exist in
families anymore. And even today currently there's also a severe
you know, housing supply shortage. It's just you know, people
(17:14):
need places to live. Affordability is an issue. But here
in this neighborhood of you know, roughly one hundred and
fifty parcels largely owned by black people. You know, the
current environmental estate of the land doesn't really allow for
people to live on the property that they own. So
they have this asset, which is land, which we all need,
(17:39):
and they can't do anything with it, you know, because
you know, it's contaminated, there's no there's no infrastructure, city
services don't exist, and so the idea is to you know,
collect data they can be used, you know, for advocacy purposes,
to make the case to city officials that say now
(18:00):
that it's time to bring infrastructure to this area so
that the people who own land here actually can make
use of it, you know, they can build homes and
rent amount and create income. So we're trying to think
about it from not just an environmental justice where in
my mind, is not just an environmental justice issue, but
it's also an economic justice because these black people, they
(18:21):
have an asset, but the asset is diminished because of
the environmental conditions. What can I do to help to
help them make them, you know, turn the situation around.
And I do that for a lot of the communities
I work with. I mean the case of Cook County
down in Georgia. So the residents were saying, you know,
(18:42):
the pollution is apparent, we see it every day. We
want to do something about it. And so they approach
you know, environmental lawyers. Those environmental lawyers were telling them, well,
you can't just make a statement that there's pollution here.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
We need data to back that up.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
So that is where you know, a person like myself
comes in to get them the data they need to
either sue a polluter or to go to their city
council or you know, local government officials and say, you know,
this is the state of contamination. This is what polluters
are doing to our community. You know, here's the evidence,
you know, and what are you going to do about it?
(19:21):
And so that is what I see My role as
a community advocate or community scientist is to play that
role to give them the data and information they need
to improve their communities. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
No, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
And I could even see this kind of test the
area that you've purchased as almost like a training facility
as well. I mean where people can actually come you
can teach them how to do this kind of sampling,
how to analyze certain types of data, how to gather
information that could be useful in advocating for your own
community wherever you're from, and then showing them the utility
(19:58):
of those skills when they go back wherever they live.
So that's this has the potential to do a lot
more for people in just the trash pile only, and
so that's exciting to see.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I'm excited for you.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Hopefully we can think of ways to support your work
there and I don't know if you need to raise money,
if you need boots on the ground, if you need equipment,
and we can think through and talk you know, at
some point about what that looks like and hopefully get
you back on the podcast to share some of the
results in the findings and some of the things that
you've been able to determine from the work that'd be
(20:34):
really exciting to do.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Absolutely, Yeah, thank you for offering you, I'd say, all
the above, and getting the community involved. You know, we
hear the term, you know, community science, community science, and yeah,
that is a good suggestion, is to get the residents
to kind of do their own community science and that
really you know, it brings it home for people when
they their hands on you know a lot of this
(20:56):
stuff is you know a lot of academics, you know,
traditionally focused on this kind of work, but when you
get you know, local residents involved, they just yeah, are
more passionate about it, and they actually have a voice,
you know, in what is happening.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Absolutely, And so when you think about the work that
you've done up until now, this work here to trash
while you're trying to begin, how does that all connect together?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Is there a connection between this trash power work and
broader each work that you do. Do you see connections
between that and some of the things that you're doing
through your company? Like how does this fit into all
that keepri is and represents as a scientist?
Speaker 4 (21:46):
A great question, Yeah, I think yeah, just you know,
as I mentioned, broader and holistically, Yeah, this all is
kind of you know, interrelated.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
You know, I'll be able to take the methodology or even.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
You know, what I learned from community voice and apply
that to when I work in other communities and you know,
other states or you know, other countries even where their
environmental justice injustices.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
You know happening.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
You know, this one is really personal for me because
you know, we're both from the town, and again, like
you mentioned, it is twenty twenty five, why are there
people still you know living you know without you know,
basic word insanitation, you know services. So it's definitely personal
for me. But but it is interrelated you know, with
you know, other communities. You know, it can take yeah,
(22:39):
lessons learned you know from you know, this exercise and
apply it to other areas and even you know, as
we get down the line in you know, dealing with
policymakers or you know, government officials. Just you know, seeing
how that process plays out, I think will be beneficial
to to learning how to work you know, or you know,
(23:02):
make the case to you know, com elected officials on
you know how you know they should improve their planning,
you know, so that you know, communities like the trash
pile don't don't get left out, especially with data centers,
since that's kind of you know, forthcoming and becoming more prominent.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
You know, we don't want to make the same mistakes.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
You know, I mean it was trash pow you know,
online landfills in the nineties and now twenty twenty five
and beyond. You know, data centers might be the thing
where you know, underserved communities are bearing the brunt of
the environmental injustice. And so you know, fifty years from now,
we don't want to be in the data you know,
(23:45):
a neighborhood that was close to a data.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Center, you know, having the same conversation.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
You want to try and make sure the same mistakes
that elected officials made, you know, in places like rock Hill,
this part of rock Hill, don't happen you know, in
other areas. So it is a very intersectional and interrelated.
You know, this be a good, good te case study. Actually, yeah,
(24:10):
because all the different environmental domains are affected, you know, land, water,
and soil.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
So yeah, it's a good a good test site for
all of that.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
No, And I appreciate your willingness to go back home
and do work in our fair city. I know you
got to go. I don't want to spend up too
much of your time. You got things to do, people
to train, environments to protect. But I do want to
just mention because I keep saying it all the time
(24:44):
and I never have actually done it, but I tell
people all the time, Hey, you go back to where
you're from, Go back to your communities, take a look around,
see what's going on. How you can invest yourself with
your talent and your time to make those environments better
instead of just opining about the state of the world.
We all have an opportunity to make our own spheres
(25:09):
healthier and more livable and equitable. And you're doing that,
and it just so happens you're doing it where I'm from,
and so I really appreciate that. And I'm so glad
that someone as skilled as you, as experience as you
is going back to rock Hill and making our town
(25:29):
just a little bit better.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Thank you, Leslie, and yeah, thank you for all you've
done as well, you know, at the University of South
Carolina and across the state.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
And I think you still have family in rock Hill,
right too.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Absolutely, I think we're doing this for all of them.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
The absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
And so with every guest, I always ask at the
very end when we close the episode, if there's anything
at all you want us to walk away from remembering
or thinking about more closely or reconsidering. Because we all
have different experiences in different directions with which we engage
(26:09):
these issues.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
And so for you, what would you want.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
The people listening to walk away with when they press
stop on this episode?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Great question, I guess to sum it up.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
I'd say, don't blame people for the state that they're
In a lot of cases, it's really been by design
and they've been targeted, like the trash pile for example.
I mean, of course the city was not going to
dump their trash near Winthrop.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Let's say, that's right.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
So I mean that area was targeted and it didn't
matter that there were people living right there. So and
the fact that there's no city services, you know, even though,
like I said, on my street and at the trash file,
that was also by design that you know, a lot
of black communities just didn't have access to services that
(27:06):
other parts of the town had access to.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
So I'd say, have compassion for people.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
And for the environment, not just people in the environment,
and you know, be vigilant when you see injustice, you know, happening,
be an advocate, speak up and join.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
The fight exactly. So with that, I want to thank
you for being on the podcast. Thank you for sharing
your time, your talent, your experiences, and your understanding of
these issues. We've all benefited greatly from hearing from you
and listening to your perspective, so thank you for sharing it.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
You're very welcome. Leslie hopefully we can do it again.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
No.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Absolutely. The door is always open. So whenever you got
some more information, some more to discuss, send me an email,
give me a call. We can make it happen. You're
morning welcome anytime on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Thank you absolutely, and thank you all for listening.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
This has been another episode of the Environmental Justice Lab,
where we are for the people and the planet.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
We will see you next time.
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for being with
us because we are back once again with Kibrie Hutchison evert.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Kibrie, how are you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
I've been good on this Yeah, very nice. Uh not
too hot summer day.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Nice. Nice.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
So we've been talking about the issues kind of in
the Carolines where we're from, different things that we've seen,
things that you've been involved that you've worked on specifically.
Now I want to transition to one of the big
things that we talked about before we started an interviewing
while we were kind of here to discussed, and that's
the trash pile, the trash pile in rock Hill.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Can you tell us what that is and how it
came to be the trash pile?
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Right, yes, yeah, and the trash pile probably is not
the politically correct term, but that is the term that
we black residents anyway in rock Hill refer to it as.
So the trash pile is actually a neighborhood. It's a
neighborhood on the southern part of our hometown, rock Hill,
(01:33):
South Carolina, and it is the site of a former
landfill I'm not sure of the years, but I think
the landfill existed through the nineties. I want to say
early nineties. Maybe I don't know when it started, but
but anyway, the city of rock Hill decided to dump
their trash in this area, in this neighborhood where people
(01:55):
were living on this part, this large parcel of land
and that wasn't lined. There was no lining, so it
was just a surface landfill. You, leslie, probably know what
the proper correct term, but it was an unlined landfill,
which is problematic for multiple reasons which I'm sure you
can explain better than me.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
But essentially, this is a the trash file.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
A is A is and was a very poor neighborhood
in the southern part of town that, through races, racist practices,
did not have services. So you might think, oh, this
must be way out in the in the sticks of
South Carolina somewhere.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
No it is not.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
It is right off of a major highway in our town.
But this this area, just like where I grew up
in my street, in which actually it was common and
I guess still is common. But these areas where black
people lived, also largely in the South especially, did not
(02:58):
have cities services. So even the street I grew up on,
I mean, it's also not in the middle of nowhere,
it's right in town. But we did not have city water,
we didn't have you know, trash pickup. And if you
look at a lot of policy that has existed, especially
in the South, you'll see that black areas were often
(03:22):
excluded from these city services. So where I grew up,
you know, we were on whale water and like I mentioned,
you know, we didn't have you know, city services. So
same thing for the trash pow trash power. They didn't know,
they didn't The people who lived there did not you know,
have running water or sanitation.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
So yes, and this that is still the case there.
So the city has not brought the infrastructure to this
area of town. And in addition to that, they were
dumping their trash there in this neighborhood for years in
an unline landfill.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So that is what the trash pile is.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Okay, So huh okay. I didn't know all of that.
So the trash, I guess. My first question is did
the people living there name it?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
That? I'm guessing, so I need to ask my aunt
because she grew up there.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
My uncle's wife grew up there.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
But you know, all throughout high school, I mean that's
all I knew it was as the trash pile.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So I'm guessing.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So I'm guessing, okay, And so right now, currently the
trash pile has no city services.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
They have no sanitation services ran.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Warton, and they have no no waste, no waste pick
up either. Nobody gets to take the trash from the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Just nothing.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Correct, Yeah, no services at all. And you know there
there's a nonprofit I want to give them credit called
a Place for Hope who's tried for many years, decades
to help the residents there. And honestly, there aren't a
lot of residents who lived there currently because of lack
of services. They are still a few, but the Place
(05:09):
of Hope, they their nonprofit they ended up setting up
through funding. They fundraised and they set up like a
mobile unit like a trailer, and the trailer provided bathrooms
for the residents and provided the washing machines and dryers
(05:29):
from the wash their clothes and also showers and so
residents from the trash file neighborhood were used, are were
and are using this mobile unit to use the bathroom
and take a shower. Now, this particular mobile unit is
currently when I went last year, you know, it's in disrepair.
(05:50):
It's full of gold, the floors are falling in, and
so they're trying to raise more money. But I mean
the sad part is I mean, it's good that people
there aren't a lot of people in the trash bow.
The trash pile is composed of about one hundred and
sixty parcels, very small parcels of land. And I want
to mention that the main street what's called black There
(06:12):
are two main streets. One is Black Men Road and
the other is Joe Louis Boulevard, which makes me proud
that they named it, you know, after a prominent Black hero,
Joe Louis. But it's about one hundred and sixty parcels.
I'm not sure how many, maybe ten percent of those
are occupied currently. But this is an area where yeah,
(06:34):
black black land, black owned land. But the residents, the landowners,
you know, they can't really do anything with the land
one because you know, who knows what contamination exists. If
you drive through the neighborhood, the trees do not look healthy.
So I don't know what that might be an indication
of but but yeah, there's just no I mean, if
you can't use the bathroom, you can't wash your hand
(06:57):
any or take a shower, of course you're not gonna
stay there.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
So it's a pretty desolate neighborhood currently.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
And just for the listeners, I mean many of you listening.
I've talked about landfills before in the past, but just
so we can kind of get our bearings when Keebrie
talks about an unlined landfill, the idea is that when
you have a landfill that's constructed, you will put an
engineered liner under it because you want to catch any
(07:26):
rain water, any contamination that might come from the trash
itself before it hits the ground, because once it hits
the ground, you're contemnating the soil and potentially the groundwater
under the soil, depending on how how the water table is.
And so typically when you design a landfill, you have
(07:47):
a nice liner, you have groundwater monitoring wells to make
sure the water's not contaminated, and you do air monitoring
to ensure that you're actually aware of what's in the
air above the landfill to alert people if there's a problem.
And so what describing is what we would call an
(08:10):
engineering world, a dump. It's literally a dump, like somebody
drove up with their dump truck, dumped the trash and
left and they just kept doing it over and over.
It's not a landfill anymore. It's what you do when
you live in a place where you don't care about
(08:32):
the environment. You just want to get your trash away
from your neighborhood. You just go somewhere and dump it.
And so when you do that and it rains and
that water passes through the trash, it hits the ground.
Those contentments hit the soil, hit the ground water, and
now you have a place that is unlivable, uninhabitable. You
(08:54):
can't drink the water, you can't breathe, and you don't
want to.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Live near a dump. Nobody does.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
And so it's really unfortunate that this is the place
where Rock Hill, where we are both from, decided to
dump their trash and leave the residents with nothing, no services,
no opportunity to take care of themselves, no protection from
the environment, nothing at all. It's a horrible, horrible scenario,
(09:28):
and most people would associate this kind of scenario with
a very poor developing country, right, That's what you would
see in those types of areas where they can't afford
to have an engineered line, they can't afford to monitor,
they can't afford to provide search, so they don't. This
is good old United States of America. This is South Carolina,
(09:53):
this is in city limits. There's no reason why this
community should be dealing with this in the year twenty
twenty five. There's no reason for it at all. I
just want to put that out there because I don't
want there'd be any confusion about how horrible this condition
is and how unacceptable this scenario is in this community.
(10:19):
So let me ask you this. Then we're talking about
the trash pile. Is this something that you feel like,
is I don't know if you would say common. Do
you see it often? Are there connections or parallels between
how this community has been treated in terms of being
managed this way versus other black communities in South Carolina
(10:40):
across the South. What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, I think this probably is common. I think.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
Maybe not necessarily with trash or kind of surface level pollution,
but just no communities of color being in proximity to
pollution in the.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
South especially I think it is commonplace.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
I was a volunteer community scientist with a group called
Concerned Citizens of Cook County, which is in southern Georgia,
kind of near Valdosta, Georgia, and they are another example
of you know black Well, it's a small town. All
(11:28):
the black people live on one side of town, which
historically was a case in rock Hill as well. It
may be changing now, but but similar situation down in
Cook County, Georgia, and all the polluters are. If you
drive through this town, you can clearly see the difference.
The white side of town is green, you know, paved roads.
(11:51):
The black side of town is where the polluters are.
Roads are unpaved. And in this particular town, in the
black neighborhood, there is a polluter that has an open
flame going pretty much all day. I don't know what
they're doing. I forgot what the what they're making or manufacturing.
And going back to you know, the prison population, what
(12:13):
they from what I what the residents said. They hire
people who maybe just gotten out of prison, got out
into jail. They're putting them in these situations because they
you know, speak up, you're not going to complain. So
they have those kinds of people working, you know, in
there in this particular town, at this particular location. But
(12:34):
that is just another example where it's not surface level
land based pollution, but it's air pollution. You know, that's
happening clearly, you know, right in the middle of a
black neighborhood. And I think I mentioned too about Samson County.
I haven't been to that landfill, but from what I'm hearing,
it's a similar situation where the state's largest landfill is
(12:56):
right adjacent to, you know, a black neighborhood. And I'm
sure there are other examples, you know, in South Carolina.
But but yeah, I mean historically, yeah, I mean that
is America. That is you know, I'm sure people have
heard of nimbi, you know, not in my backyard. And
when people say not in my backyard, it goes to
somebody else's backyard.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Often those are communities of color.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yep, that's exactly right. You know.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
One thing I didn't mention earlier that you brought up,
which I appreciate, was we talked about the environment. It's
not just the air and water quality. It's like you
were saying, there are no paved roads. I imagine there's
no parks to play in, no green spaces, no trees,
no places to go and just spend time with your families.
(13:46):
It really is a desolate abandoned We call them sacrifice zones,
like you've sacrificed this part of town or whatever your
purpose was. And so that's what we're also seeing when
we talk about the track pile, talk about this areas
in Cook County, dealing in South Carolina. I'm thinking about
North Charleston, South Carolina, parts of rural North Carolina. This
(14:09):
is what we're seeing more and more of. But the
good thing is that there are people like you in
the world who have the training in the background and
who are trying to do something to make change. And
so what you told me before is that you've purchased
a parcel at the trash pile, and I guess you're
going to I don't know if you're going to move
(14:30):
into it, like live there. But what is your plan
with this land and what are you trying to accomplish
with your work at the trash pile?
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Yeah, so, yes, yeah, a parcel became available. It's a
very small parcel, so it was only about a tenth
of an acre, which the parcel. Surprisingly at the trash
pile are about that size most of them.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Now don't know what the story is on that.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I'm sure there's some reason why that's the case too,
but but yeah, I did recently purchase parcel there. What
I have in mind is, you know, having it as
an environmental test site.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
M hm.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
And so you know, I think I mentioned how like
the trees there just shows signs of distress. They don't
look healthy, so obviously there's something going on under the ground.
But I do want to do some you know, experiments there.
I'm not sure exactly what they're going to entail. You know,
(15:31):
it could be air, water, soil, all all of the
above really, because the trash file not only is the
site of a former landfill, but even to date, there
are multiple polluters within a one mile radius of the community.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So there's like a you know.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
An asphalt mine or a mine of some sort. I
can't remember, a rock corery. I think it's a rock cory,
a couple of other kind of chemical plants in close
proxy many you know to the site, so we could
do you know, air quality testing. And of course, yeah
I mentioned the water and soil, but the long term.
(16:09):
I mean, you know, the bigger picture, let's say, I mean,
we see, we know that there's contamination there. As far
as I know, there's never really been any kind of
environmental impact studies you know, of the property of the
site there. There's been no reason to I guess, you know,
unless you know, some developer wants.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
To come along and.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
And turn you know, turn it into something else, and
maybe you know, people at the local government will become
interested in trying to do something, but it won't help
the native people who are from there, which is often
the case, you know, will helped you know, big business
or some developers. But but yeah, kind of the the
bigger picture in my mind is, you know, we often
(16:52):
hear about you know, black land loss and how you know,
so much of the land, especially farmland, that you know,
black people had, you know, at the turn of the
twentieth century, you know, it's gone. It doesn't exist in
families anymore. And even today currently there's also a severe
you know, housing supply shortage. It's just you know, people
(17:14):
need places to live. Affordability is an issue. But here
in this neighborhood of you know, roughly one hundred and
fifty parcels largely owned by black people. You know, the
current environmental estate of the land doesn't really allow for
people to live on the property that they own. So
they have this asset, which is land, which we all need,
(17:39):
and they can't do anything with it, you know, because
you know, it's contaminated, there's no there's no infrastructure, city
services don't exist, and so the idea is to you know,
collect data they can be used, you know, for advocacy purposes,
to make the case to city officials that say now
(18:00):
that it's time to bring infrastructure to this area so
that the people who own land here actually can make
use of it, you know, they can build homes and
rent amount and create income. So we're trying to think
about it from not just an environmental justice where in
my mind, is not just an environmental justice issue, but
it's also an economic justice because these black people, they
(18:21):
have an asset, but the asset is diminished because of
the environmental conditions. What can I do to help to
help them make them, you know, turn the situation around.
And I do that for a lot of the communities
I work with. I mean the case of Cook County
down in Georgia. So the residents were saying, you know,
(18:42):
the pollution is apparent, we see it every day. We
want to do something about it. And so they approach
you know, environmental lawyers. Those environmental lawyers were telling them, well,
you can't just make a statement that there's pollution here.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
We need data to back that up.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
So that is where you know, a person like myself
comes in to get them the data they need to
either sue a polluter or to go to their city
council or you know, local government officials and say, you know,
this is the state of contamination. This is what polluters
are doing to our community. You know, here's the evidence,
you know, and what are you going to do about it?
(19:21):
And so that is what I see My role as
a community advocate or community scientist is to play that
role to give them the data and information they need
to improve their communities. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
No, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
And I could even see this kind of test the
area that you've purchased as almost like a training facility
as well. I mean where people can actually come you
can teach them how to do this kind of sampling,
how to analyze certain types of data, how to gather
information that could be useful in advocating for your own
community wherever you're from, and then showing them the utility
(19:58):
of those skills when they go back wherever they live.
So that's this has the potential to do a lot
more for people in just the trash pile only, and
so that's exciting to see.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I'm excited for you.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Hopefully we can think of ways to support your work
there and I don't know if you need to raise money,
if you need boots on the ground, if you need equipment,
and we can think through and talk you know, at
some point about what that looks like and hopefully get
you back on the podcast to share some of the
results in the findings and some of the things that
you've been able to determine from the work that'd be
(20:34):
really exciting to do.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Absolutely, Yeah, thank you for offering you, I'd say, all
the above, and getting the community involved. You know, we
hear the term, you know, community science, community science, and yeah,
that is a good suggestion, is to get the residents
to kind of do their own community science and that
really you know, it brings it home for people when
they their hands on you know a lot of this
(20:56):
stuff is you know a lot of academics, you know,
traditionally focused on this kind of work, but when you
get you know, local residents involved, they just yeah, are
more passionate about it, and they actually have a voice,
you know, in what is happening.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Absolutely, And so when you think about the work that
you've done up until now, this work here to trash
while you're trying to begin, how does that all connect together?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Is there a connection between this trash power work and
broader each work that you do. Do you see connections
between that and some of the things that you're doing
through your company? Like how does this fit into all
that keepri is and represents as a scientist?
Speaker 4 (21:46):
A great question, Yeah, I think yeah, just you know,
as I mentioned, broader and holistically, Yeah, this all is
kind of you know, interrelated.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
You know, I'll be able to take the methodology or even.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
You know, what I learned from community voice and apply
that to when I work in other communities and you know,
other states or you know, other countries even where their
environmental justice injustices.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
You know happening.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
You know, this one is really personal for me because
you know, we're both from the town, and again, like
you mentioned, it is twenty twenty five, why are there
people still you know living you know without you know,
basic word insanitation, you know services. So it's definitely personal
for me. But but it is interrelated you know, with
you know, other communities. You know, it can take yeah,
(22:39):
lessons learned you know from you know, this exercise and
apply it to other areas and even you know, as
we get down the line in you know, dealing with
policymakers or you know, government officials. Just you know, seeing
how that process plays out, I think will be beneficial
to to learning how to work you know, or you know,
(23:02):
make the case to you know, com elected officials on
you know how you know they should improve their planning,
you know, so that you know, communities like the trash
pile don't don't get left out, especially with data centers,
since that's kind of you know, forthcoming and becoming more prominent.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
You know, we don't want to make the same mistakes.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
You know, I mean it was trash pow you know,
online landfills in the nineties and now twenty twenty five
and beyond. You know, data centers might be the thing
where you know, underserved communities are bearing the brunt of
the environmental injustice. And so you know, fifty years from now,
we don't want to be in the data you know,
(23:45):
a neighborhood that was close to a data.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Center, you know, having the same conversation.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
You want to try and make sure the same mistakes
that elected officials made, you know, in places like rock Hill,
this part of rock Hill, don't happen you know, in
other areas. So it is a very intersectional and interrelated.
You know, this be a good, good te case study. Actually, yeah,
(24:10):
because all the different environmental domains are affected, you know, land, water,
and soil.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
So yeah, it's a good a good test site for
all of that.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
No, And I appreciate your willingness to go back home
and do work in our fair city. I know you
got to go. I don't want to spend up too
much of your time. You got things to do, people
to train, environments to protect. But I do want to
just mention because I keep saying it all the time
(24:44):
and I never have actually done it, but I tell
people all the time, Hey, you go back to where
you're from, Go back to your communities, take a look around,
see what's going on. How you can invest yourself with
your talent and your time to make those environments better
instead of just opining about the state of the world.
We all have an opportunity to make our own spheres
(25:09):
healthier and more livable and equitable. And you're doing that,
and it just so happens you're doing it where I'm from,
and so I really appreciate that. And I'm so glad
that someone as skilled as you, as experience as you
is going back to rock Hill and making our town
(25:29):
just a little bit better.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Thank you, Leslie, and yeah, thank you for all you've
done as well, you know, at the University of South
Carolina and across the state.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
And I think you still have family in rock Hill,
right too.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Absolutely, I think we're doing this for all of them.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
The absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
And so with every guest, I always ask at the
very end when we close the episode, if there's anything
at all you want us to walk away from remembering
or thinking about more closely or reconsidering. Because we all
have different experiences in different directions with which we engage
(26:09):
these issues.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
And so for you, what would you want.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
The people listening to walk away with when they press
stop on this episode?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Great question, I guess to sum it up.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
I'd say, don't blame people for the state that they're
In a lot of cases, it's really been by design
and they've been targeted, like the trash pile for example.
I mean, of course the city was not going to
dump their trash near Winthrop.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Let's say, that's right.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
So I mean that area was targeted and it didn't
matter that there were people living right there. So and
the fact that there's no city services, you know, even though,
like I said, on my street and at the trash file,
that was also by design that you know, a lot
of black communities just didn't have access to services that
(27:06):
other parts of the town had access to.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
So I'd say, have compassion for people.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
And for the environment, not just people in the environment,
and you know, be vigilant when you see injustice, you know, happening,
be an advocate, speak up and join.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
The fight exactly. So with that, I want to thank
you for being on the podcast. Thank you for sharing
your time, your talent, your experiences, and your understanding of
these issues. We've all benefited greatly from hearing from you
and listening to your perspective, so thank you for sharing it.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
You're very welcome. Leslie hopefully we can do it again.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
No.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Absolutely. The door is always open. So whenever you got
some more information, some more to discuss, send me an email,
give me a call. We can make it happen. You're
morning welcome anytime on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Thank you absolutely, and thank you all for listening.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
This has been another episode of the Environmental Justice Lab,
where we are for the people and the planet.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
We will see you next time.
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