November 25, 2025 • 65 mins
What does it take to confront generations of environmental racism and win?
In this episode, Senior Attorney Chandra Taylor-Sawyer of the Southern Environmental Law Center (SELC) pulls back the curtain on what it really means to fight for environmental justice in the U.S. South. From zoning decisions that quietly turn Black neighborhoods into dumping grounds, to federal rollbacks that threaten the very civil rights tools that communities rely on, Chandra explains how injustice is built and how organized communities can dismantle it. She shares her journey from North Carolina to national leadership, the creation of SELC’s Environmental Justice Initiative, and the urgent battles unfolding right now to protect civil rights regulations, defend bedrock environmental laws, and challenge discriminatory permitting practices. Chandra also highlights SELC’s groundbreaking storytelling project, “Plantations to Pollution,” which traces how historic disinvestment shapes present-day environmental harms and how communities are rising to demand a different future.
This episode is both a warning and a rallying cry. Even as federal protections are dismantled and civil rights enforcement is weakened, communities still have powerful tools - public comments, citizen lawsuits, organizing, data collection, and collective pressure - to fight for the healthy, thriving environments that they deserve.
If you care about justice anywhere, but particulatly in the South, this conversation will inspire you, ground you in the realities of the struggle, and remind you that change happens when communities refuse to be silent.
Resources:
Southern Environmental Law Center Website: https://www.selc.org/
Plantations to Pollution Project: https://plantationstopollution.selc.org/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support.
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
In this episode, Senior Attorney Chandra Taylor-Sawyer of the Southern Environmental Law Center (SELC) pulls back the curtain on what it really means to fight for environmental justice in the U.S. South. From zoning decisions that quietly turn Black neighborhoods into dumping grounds, to federal rollbacks that threaten the very civil rights tools that communities rely on, Chandra explains how injustice is built and how organized communities can dismantle it. She shares her journey from North Carolina to national leadership, the creation of SELC’s Environmental Justice Initiative, and the urgent battles unfolding right now to protect civil rights regulations, defend bedrock environmental laws, and challenge discriminatory permitting practices. Chandra also highlights SELC’s groundbreaking storytelling project, “Plantations to Pollution,” which traces how historic disinvestment shapes present-day environmental harms and how communities are rising to demand a different future.
This episode is both a warning and a rallying cry. Even as federal protections are dismantled and civil rights enforcement is weakened, communities still have powerful tools - public comments, citizen lawsuits, organizing, data collection, and collective pressure - to fight for the healthy, thriving environments that they deserve.
If you care about justice anywhere, but particulatly in the South, this conversation will inspire you, ground you in the realities of the struggle, and remind you that change happens when communities refuse to be silent.
Resources:
Southern Environmental Law Center Website: https://www.selc.org/
Plantations to Pollution Project: https://plantationstopollution.selc.org/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support.
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab podcast. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph, and today on this episode, we have
a very very special guest.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Her name is.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Chandra Taylor Sawyer. She is a senior attorney at the
Southern Environmental Law Center. Sandra, thank you so much for
being with us today.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
My pleasure. Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Absolutely So I have a little bio. I want to
read it for our listeners because I want them to
really feel who's joining us today on this podcast. So
I'm going to read it is pretty extensive. Sondra is
a senior attorney at the Southern Environmental Law Center and
leads its environmental justice initiative. For nearly two decades, she
(01:13):
has worked to confront the disproportionate burdened the pollution born
by communities of color and low wealth neighborhoods across the South.
That's the South and the United States. We have an
international audience for those of you listening outside of the US.
In the southern part of the United States, she is
a leader and fighting for environmental justice in that area.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Her legal career.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Spans water quality advocacy, industrial halk operation reform, and litigation
to clean up toxic waste sits, always with the focus
on protecting public health and elevating community voices six twenty sixteen.
She has also served as an adjunct faculty member at
the University of North Carolina School of Law, teaching environmental justice, law, policy,
(01:57):
and regulation. Sondra has been wrecked recognized nationally for her leadership,
including as an Audubon Together Green Fellow, and she currently
serves on the boards of the University of North Carolina
Institute for the Environment, the Greater Triangle Area Chapter of
the American Red Cross, and the National Environmental Education Foundation.
(02:22):
She is also a North Carolina native and a graduate
of the great University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
That is who we're talking to today, in case you're wondering,
and so it is my honor and privilege to spend
this time with you on the.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Podcast mine as well, doctor Lovely, So.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
What I like to do with all of our guests,
especially distinguished ones, is learned about their background, where they
came from, how they got into this environmental justice world,
and how they ended up where they ended up, whether
they's an organization, the university, a nonprofit and so tell
our listeners about your upbringing, about your background, how you
(03:09):
got involved environmental justice. Was it an event, a circumstance situation,
just observing things and just go from there.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
So my interest in environmental justice work really stems from
two things. First, it is been a lifelong desire of
mind to engage in ways that helped create a level
(03:42):
playing field for everyone.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
It's been present in my mind.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
And the triggering event that I think back to was
growing up in the nineties and seeing that end.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
To South African apartheid.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
So I was in college and I saw what was
happening across the world. I saw this nation come to
a point where it was going to eradicate what had
been basically legalized racism in an entire nation. And they
(04:27):
came to that point with a combination of international pressure,
organizing of people in that nation, long term advocacy of
extraordinary leadership. I think we all heard about what Nelson
Mandela was able to do in that nation, and even
(04:49):
though it was on the other side of the world,
from my perspective, I felt like I was seeing.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Like a unveiling of their civil rights movement.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
So I wasn't born yet when the United States was
going through the Civil rights movement. But in the fifties
in the United States, we saw the end to segregation
with Brownbee Board of Education. There were so many laws
(05:23):
passed in the fifties that were meant to help create
create a level playing field for people in this country.
There was, you know, we saw the end to Jim Crow.
There was the passage of the Fair Housing Act. In
the sixties, we saw the passage of the Civil Rights Act,
(05:44):
and all of these things I know about because I
was reading history. I wasn't there to experience those things firsthand,
but as a freshman in college, I was able to see, like.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
This is their civil rights movement.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
This is so motivating, And I think that part of
what I'm going to do with my work as a
human being, as a person is to help create a
level playing field for everyone to live the lives that
they envision for themselves. So I've always had a very
strong interest in social justice. I feel like I had
(06:21):
a lot of support for my pursuits, my exploration of
African American history, of African history. I'm from Kinston, North Carolina.
I went to a predominantly black high school. I felt like,
I was really encouraged to look at you know, you know,
what can be done for an equal playing field? What
(06:43):
can be done to uh have equality for everyone? What
can what can I do to contribute to that. My
grandmother was the cafeteria manager. She was the you know,
a woman who was doing what I thought also was helping,
you know, create a level playing field. She was providing
food for elementary school students and I loved going to
(07:06):
see her every day. But she was also providing an
example of a person who was engaged in civic life.
She you know, participated in making sure there was food
for people during the holiday season.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
She had so much to give and I got to.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
You know, have a mentor in that regard, like somebody
who was always looking out to help her community. So
that has been one of my lifelong interests. And then
I'm also a person who was always interested in science.
I said, if I went to a smaller university, I
(07:41):
probably would have become a scientist. I am a very
strong supporter of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
It is a huge school.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
So I started out at Carolina thinking that I would be,
you know, a scientist, a physician, and and all of
my acumen that so far in science, it did not
stand up to the test of college. So I said,
(08:13):
let me lean into my strengths. What is it that
I am good at? And you know, research, writing, advocacy
were areas that were a more natural fit for my
skill set than to continue in the hard sciences. But
that didn't diminish my interest. So, you know, interest in
(08:33):
social justice, interest in science, those things both led to
a career seeking to achieve environmental justice.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Now, before.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Coming to Southern Environmental Law Center, I actually practiced consumer
protection law. So I did that for five years before
transitioning to Southern Environmental Law Center and practicing environmental law.
And I went into consumer law practice because I was like,
this is an area of social justice.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
This is about economic opportunity.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
It's about making sure that people are not preyed upon
with predatory loan products, with predatory credit cards, even looking
at making sure that people didn't have predatory rental agreement.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Lease agreements for their home.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
And I said to myself, you know, this is where
I think that I will have a really meaningful impact
to people who I feel like I see and I
interact with every day, and that was my choice. My
first you know, I was entertaining coming out of law
school international human rights, environmental law, or consumer financial protection.
(09:48):
But I spent five years in consumer financial protection. And
then around the time where I recognized that our national
banking laws were actually prohibiting consumers from actually getting ahead
that I was I was observing, I was like, I
(10:11):
we represented lots of people who were facing foreclosure. We had,
there was a strong North Carolina Anti Predatory Mortgage Lending Act.
We were bringing these cases, but we were getting preempted
by a national banking Act that was actually protecting lenders
and not making lenders actually do right by consumers.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And I was like, this is an uphill battle.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
And until we have some reform with our national banking laws,
with consumer financial protection, this is going to be a
area that I can't do what I think I am.
I can't provide the assistance or the relief that I
think should be possible. And I started looking for what
(10:56):
I would choose to do next, and I said, Okay,
what is next on the horizon for me? And I
heard on NPR about the work of Southern Environmental Law Center.
So in two thousand and six, SELC was involved in
litigation to improve air quality improve air quality in the Southeast,
(11:21):
and I was like, this is an organization that is
well resourced enough and that has an intention that is
about protecting public health that I know will actually be
remarkably effective in helping achieve environmental justice. I was like,
SEOC might not be calling the work that it does
(11:44):
environmental justice work, but I was like, an organization that's
based in the Southeast, which is SELC is based in
the Southeast, that is really intentional about making sure that
everybody has a healthy environment is a place that I
think that I'm going to be able to grow and
do this work of achieving environmental justice. And there was
(12:07):
a position open at SELC. I applied for a lateral
move at five years of practice and made the case
about how my experience thus far would translate into practicing
environmental law. And certainly I do think that my passion
for the work was probably more in depth than my
(12:29):
exposure to bedrock environmental laws. But I didn't think that
that was going to create a barrier in me having
extraordinary impact along with people who I already considered extraordinary.
I was like, these people doing this work they're going
to do amazing things. I'm going to be able to
do amazing things with them. So that's my path to
(12:51):
practicing environmental law and practicing environmental law to achieve environmental
justice at SELC, and I have been at SELC nineteen
years at.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
This point, wow, nineteen years. A couple of questions.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
You mentioned at the beginning that seeing what happened in
South Africa was one of the things that really motivated
you to do the work that you're doing now and
really pushed you inteaction that you're going in that you've
gone in, which is kind of surprising to me because
looking outside. So first of all, I know, when I
(13:31):
was younger, I didn't really pay much attention to world affairs,
global affairs. I was very much in my own little
bubble in South Caroline where I'm from. And so the
here you talk about how you watched and saw South
Africa's kind of civil rights movement there push to end
apartheid as a motivating factor is really interesting, and I
(13:55):
wonder why that didn't take you on an international kind
of trajectory looking at other parts of the world. There
are other parts of the you know, hemisphere that may
have been in need of that same kind of liberation
because you mentioned, Okay, the US, we had our civil
rights movement, we inter segregation, I call it American apartheid
(14:18):
here and move through that. You see South Africa, and
I would think you would say, oh, I wonder where
else in the world these civil rights need to be realized.
But you stayed in the South, working in the South.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I would love to learn more about how that, in
your mind played into what you're doing. And I'm also
interested in the transition from consumer protection law to environmental law.
Was that a hard shift? I always hear from lawyers
how certain types of laws is pricing law this way
is not like the other kinds. So you can't just
(14:56):
go from you know, criminal to administrative and from consumer
to environmental environmental to trial. And I don't know if
they're trying to just tell me that because they want
me to know how specific their particular field is, or
if it really is like a hard lift to transition
from one type of law practice to something that from
(15:19):
my perspective seems to be totally different. What was that
like for you and how did you navigate that shift
toward environmental law?
Speaker 4 (15:31):
So I'll start with the decision to keep my focus
more domestic, even though my motivation came from actions that
I saw happening, you know, across the world.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So we still see that even though we.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Saw the end to segregation in the United States, that
hasn't resulted in the gains that should have been realized
with the passage of the Civil Rights Act, the passage
of the Fair Housing Act, with the end to Jim Crow.
I mean, it is still a fact that black communities,
(16:18):
black families are seventy five percent more likely to live
in close proximity to polluting facilities than white families. It's
still true that there are enormous wealth disparities in the
United States between Black and Hispanic families and white families.
It's still true that with maternal health, black mothers are
(16:41):
far more likely to die related to pregnancy complications than
white women. The fact is is, though even though there
should be a great deal of progress, there has not
been enough. So it I was I'm still very interested
and what happens across the world, all around the world,
(17:04):
but from my perspective, there was a great need for
actions that I could take in the United States, like
we haven't come as far as we need to come
in terms of social justice, and social justice ends for
you know, all of our people. So that was you know,
(17:30):
I did consider international human rights. I really loved my
clinic in law school. I really enjoyed working on asylum cases,
doing work to you know, help people who were fleeing
violence in their own country.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
I thought that was important work.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
But from my perspective, I was like, how can I
have the most impact, how can I engage directly with people.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Right where I am?
Speaker 4 (17:57):
And that choice to go into consumer financial protection law
and then to remain in environmental law in the United
States it was motivated by me envisioning having a greater
impact here domestically. But I will also say that my
transition to environmental law also had to do with the
(18:19):
fact that the regular you know, a scheme to actually
protect the environment, to set up regulations that are protective,
that that actually has international application, you know, the way
that we determine, like you know, we have permits to pollute.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
That's how our environmental.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Protection system exists to limit certain pollutants. Actually it is
quite protective. I did spend time in China with an
exchange program that was sponsored by the Department of State
and the Woodrow Wilson Institute. I did that with the
Vermont Law School Environmental Justice Exchange Program, and I remember
(19:03):
being in Beijing and trying to exercise outside and feeling
like an asthmatic and we were and I'm not an asthmatic,
Like that's not something that like, thankfully, even though African
Americans are more likely to suffer from asthma than white communities,
often because of the proximity to polluting facilities, that's not
(19:29):
something that I had experienced before going to China and
their environmental protection system is younger than ours, but it
really brought home to me, like, here's how our permits
that limit the amount of pollutants that can be released
actually help us, because I was in a situation where
I was like, they have a young system, the regulations
(19:52):
were not working appropriately, and it was hard to breathe.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
But so.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
That was just an example of you know, I feel
like I do get some taste of international application of
the work in the practice of environmental law, but still
am very interested in being working stateside because we have
so far to go. And then on a question of
transitioning from consumer financial protection law to environmental law. I
(20:23):
do think it is a heavy lift, but I don't
think it's an impossible lift. And I would tell anyone
that when you are very motivated to do something, you're
willing to put in the work to do that lift,
especially if it's not beyond your capacity. Like I realized,
I wasn't going to become a chemistry PhD. But I
(20:46):
could become an environmental lawyer. I don't have to understand
all of the science. I need to understand some of it,
and I need to consult with an expert to go,
you know, the final mile.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I think so. I think that's the short answer to
the question.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
It is a heavy lift, but it's not impossible, especially
when you're very motivated to do work in a particular
practice area, you know. I think it's just taking the
time to do it, deciding what you need to study,
consulting with the right mentors, consulting with the right sponsors,
taking the additional courses, and doing the work.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Nice, very nice. So now, so now you're at the
Southern Environmental Law Center. You've been there for nineteen years,
and from what you said earlier, you wanted to go
there because of a story you heard on NPR talking
about its work. And so now that you're there, what
(21:47):
would you say is the mission of the SCLC, What
are they trying to do and what is there made
you're pushing initiatives throughout the center because I'm curious. The
reason I'm asking is because in the South especially, and
I'm sure across the country too, but in the South,
(22:09):
there's so many issues, so many problems, and when I
read about a company and an organization called the Southern
Environmental Law Center, it gives me the impression that they
can't possibly be doing all the things that I would
think in environmental heals there needs to do because there's
too many issues. And so I wonder if there's any
(22:32):
particular focus area, any particular driving mission that you kind
of are dialed into that's specific to the Law Center
that you could tell us about.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
So right now, so I'm dialed into leading our environmental
justice initiatives. So we have done work that I think
is consequential toward improving public health, toward protecting the environment
for Southerners, for people in the South East. You know,
for almost almost forty years. The Environmental Justice Initiative was
(23:05):
created in twenty twenty one, so there was an intention
of leadership of the organization to put a thumb on
the scale to actually do more in terms of representing
partnering with the most overburdened communities in our region. That
(23:27):
the South has created problems and that the South can
actually help solve problems, and some of those problems relate
to systematic, systemic racial injustice. So our leadership put environmental
justice in our strategic plan and I was asked to
(23:51):
make sure that we were carrying out these objectives. So
I am dialed in to doing that. And I think
you're absolutely right your your perspective in that there are
so many issues. Certainly we cannot cover all of them. However,
I would say with the Environmental Justice Initiative, one of
the things that we seek to do is to listen
(24:15):
to people who are frontline to environmental harm, Listen to
the most vulnerable communities, listen to communities of color about
what issues are front of mind, are causing the most
harm for them, and that actually helps direct how we
allocate the resources that we have as an organization toward
(24:37):
the ends of reducing those burdens of preventing additional harm.
So while we can't do everything we do partner with
communities who are frontline to find out what are the
most pressing harms. And you know, we've heard over and
over again about issues that zoning issues on the local level.
You know, that comes up so frequently, so many decisions
(25:00):
about whether a facility is going to be a polluting
facility is going to be able to cite in close
proximity to a residential community that has been disinvested in
and thus is more attractive to a uh, you know,
industry because it's cheaper land near this disinvested a community
(25:22):
that's been disinvested in the decision about whether that facility
can cite near a residential area, that's a local zoning
decision that comes up. So we've chosen to engage in
some issues related to zoning and land use that is
right there. In parallel with our Landing Community program, we
(25:48):
also do research about what does a data show are
the issues that are causing most harm. And we you know,
we looked at air quality in our region and recognize
hot spots, pollution hot spots in mobile pollution hot spots
in Northern Birmingham, pollution hot spots in Memphis, and we
(26:13):
have been able to partner with organizations that are working
to alleviate those harms, and our staff, our attorneys, our
geospatial staff are engaging in work to improve air quality
in those same areas. So we have as an organization,
(26:37):
just as a matter of fact, six program areas and
two cross programmatic initiatives. So the Environmental Justice Initiative is
across all our programs, The Climate Initiative is across all
of our programs. But we also have attorneys working on forest,
(26:57):
wetliss and coast water, air energy and then Landing Community
which is really looking at transportation, zoning issues, responsible development,
and growth. So you're right, there are so many issues.
There are always more issues than there are attorneys. There's
more issues than there are actually laws to protect against harm.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
But we focus our work through the.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
Lens of our programs and our initiatives, and the Environmental
Justice Initiative is really looking at all of our program
areas and saying, you know, how do we actually reduce
harm in these areas for communities that are most vulnerable,
for communities of color, for low wealth communities. So you're right,
(27:47):
there is a lot to do, but we do have
our own internal prioritization and we are listening to what
our partner groups say are the most present harms.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Nice I want to drill down a little bit on
the issue of zoning just for a second, because I
know for me, I mean, I'm in the academic space,
and so collecting data is what we like to do.
So water quality data is always something that we look at,
and air quality data and you know, infrastructure qualities, things
(28:24):
that we can collect that we can visibly see and
touch and report on.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
And it's always fun for me to do that.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
But I think this issue of zoning is something that
we really don't talk about in the academic world, but
it seems like it's a really really big issue and
a really really big concern. And the way it was
explaining to me was a big corporation comes with the
desire to build a facilities somewhere. They pick the cheapest,
(28:56):
lowest income area, and there's a vote to determine if
they'll be allowed to build there, and usually they sell
them on economic development, job creation, and voila, the council
(29:17):
agrees and they vote to allow that facility.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
To be built there.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
And what I'm always told is, oh, we need people
to come to those meetings and raise their voices and
tell people how they feel, how they be impacted, and
raise concern about these places coming to their communities. But essentially,
in the end, it's the people voting that would be
(29:45):
the ones who determine whether or not a facility gets
placed there, and that's how it ends up going. First,
is that a fair characterization? And two, if it is,
where does a law center get involved there? Because it
does feel very much like a public comment conversation with
(30:08):
elected officials making the found decision, apart from any other
kind of influence, And so how does the SELC enter
into those kinds of conversations, those kinds of concerns and
exert I don't know if it's legal pressure, if it's
like advocacy pressure to try and prevent those harms from
(30:33):
coming to those communities.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
So we are going to use whatever tools are in
the toolbox to help get to the ends that our
clients and partners are seeking to get to. And I
do think that your characterization, I think it's spot on
(30:58):
in terms of how decisions get made. I would also
add that pressure from an organized public is extraordinarily meaningful.
Pressure from an organized public in the public comment process
does have outcomes that can be very favorable to a
(31:21):
community that's advocating for an outcome that's different than.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
What seems to be on the table.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Uh. And so you know, one we engaged with a
community uh in Savannah, Georgia that it was a residential
community that was in very close proximity to a vehicle
transfer station, so basically there, you know, it's a residential community,
(31:52):
but there was a auto import company that was basically
bringing cars in and out of this residential community so
in commerce. And the community was really disturbed about the
amount of traffic that was created by this facility being
(32:12):
in a residential neighborhood. They were concerned about the condition
of some of the vehicles and what impact it would
have on the actual physical environment of this neighborhood. And
there we actually helped in a communications capacity for that community.
So they wanted to have press conferences to pressure the
(32:38):
local zoning authority to actually panelize the auto export facility
from to penalize them for violations of local zoning regulations.
And you know, we provided communication support. We provided you know,
help with yard signs for the protests associated with it,
(32:59):
with talking points for the community, with their press conference
and with with research that supported that that actual that
facility was actually in violation of the local zoning ordinance.
So actually getting the regulators to come out to the
community and cite that facility for violations of the local
(33:22):
zoning ordinance. So that's one example, and I mean the
outcome eventually got to that facility moving out of that
community or promising to move out of that community.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
So you know, that is one of the ways.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
To get involved is with you know, communications by an
organized community that has recognized when you know there's somebody
in the neighborhood that is violating the local zoning ordinance.
In terms of facilities that might be trying to come in,
(33:56):
there have been engagements where you know, we are recognizing, oh,
the local zoning authority, they're not complying with public notice.
So public notice that says, you know, you have to
advertise that you're going to vote on this change in
zoning that will allow this particular polluting facility in. So
(34:21):
we're on the lookout for that did the local zoning
authority follow its own rules? And if they don't, then
we are prepared in those situations to actually file a
lawsuit to ask them to not proceed with the vote.
So those are just two examples of how to get involved.
But it does take an organized community to actually raise
(34:44):
the flag, and the organized community is going to be
most influential to the zoning authority, the planning commission, the
border counting commissioners, whoever is making those zoning decisions. I mean,
there are certainly situations where you know, where of the
community fall on deaf ears, but there are also many
instances where opposition to placement of a data center in
(35:10):
Virginia like that, it doesn't go forward because of organized
opposition of people who are concerned about what it would
mean to see a data center set up in their community.
So I do think you're right, and I do think
that organized pressure understanding what the laws are, understanding what
the rules are, can influence those processes. But it is
(35:34):
absolutely true that zoning issues actually in up creating environmental
injustices over and over again.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
No, absolutely, And that's what.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I'm being told more now is the kind of thing
that we should focus on in terms of stemming the
tide of environmental justice injustice versus trying to look for
specific instances of pollution or specific areas that are kind
of degraded, like the way cities are laid out, the
(36:10):
way they're planned, the way facilities are cited, the way
those areas are managed by the city itself becomes almost
a much bigger issue than just whether or not the
water is cleaning the air is clean. And so I've
been thinking about that a lot, and it's good to
know that this kind of organized opposition can really yield
(36:35):
positive results and really shift the I guess like a
better word, environment that people are experiencing where they live.
Just a quick question, what does SELC consider the South?
Because you mentioned Virginia, Is that south?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
For for a CLC is the South?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Okay, so what it covered south?
Speaker 4 (37:03):
SEOC works in North Carolina, South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, Virginia,
and Tennessee, and we also have an office in Washington,
d C. Our Federal Affairs team is in Washington, d C.
Because we are also engaging with members of Congress and
engaging with the federal executive and agencies regarding environmental protection,
(37:29):
improvement of public health in the Southeast. We primarily work
in those six Southeastern states, though occasionally we engage in
matters outside of the sixth Southeastern states. Sometimes there are
matters of national significance. Right now, we're engaged into federal
(37:52):
funding freeze cases that have clients from outside of the
Southeast that in that work is specifically about making sure
that these groups that are doing work to improve the environment,
to improve public health, to provide food for people in need,
(38:16):
that they actually get the funding that Congress allocated and
said should go to those communities to do that work.
And those are two cases of national national coverage. But
that's those are those states are the states in which
we primarily work.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Okay, and I cut you off earlier, what were you
going to say?
Speaker 4 (38:42):
And it was in terms of influence that people can
have in the planning and zoning process.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
I just was going to mention the our new.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Multimedia storytelling project Plantations to Pollution Black Communities like Pollution
and a path forward that I am very hopeful that
people will take the time to go to that web page.
It is a wonderfully it's visually stunning and the information
is incredibly helpful in connecting past harm to current injustice
(39:20):
and actually being able to show a through line from
how in zoning situations, how historic disinvestment has resulted in
neighborhoods that are in need of help, that are in
need of decisions that actually support them to.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Improve their environment.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
That historic injustice has made it more difficult for them
to get ahead today. And one of those stories is
in the Berkeley community, the Berkeley neighborhood in Norfolk, and
that's a community that had been.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Disinvested in.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
And when it came time and it has flooded over
and over, Like, there are issues with flooding in that community.
So in terms of like looking at what are the environmental.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Issues, well, the.
Speaker 4 (40:06):
Local authorities that needed to make a decision about how
do we shore up this community so that they don't
have these flooding issues. Well, before intensive organizing by that community,
there was a decision made that basically acknowledged, oh, the
property values are just so depressed in this community that
it would actually cost more to protect it from additional
(40:30):
flooding than what the value of the.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Property actually is.
Speaker 4 (40:35):
Well, it was like pressure from people in that community
to say, like here, here's why these property values are depressed,
and we are still a community and we're still in
need of being protected. So in the same way that
these local decision makers are going to protect other areas
(40:58):
of Norfolk from concent you know, consistent flooding. The Berkeley
community needs that as well, and they're organizing and their
advocacy did get them included in the plan for protection
from flooding. So I mean, I think, you know, that's
one of those instances of there is a particular like
environmental harm, which is you know, there's you know, climate
(41:19):
change driven flooding and flooding that relates to you know,
systemic disinvestment or even granting low lying land to people
black communities who were seeking to have somewhere to live
post enslavement. They're the environmental issues, but there's also these
planning and zoning decisions about and you know local municipal
(41:41):
decisions about well what do we do to actually alleviate
this harm? And that's one of those local decisions that
by organizing, by putting pressure on decision making decision makers,
showing them about the past, enlightening them about the present,
that they actually got a result that is favorable and
(42:03):
that is about protecting that community from you know, future flooding.
So it's just an example, uh, to follow on to
what you were saying, and you know, a mention of
a really great project that I think is illuminating in
a lot of ways, and that Plantations to.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Pollution is uh.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
It allows people to make the connections between prior harm
and current injustice and then determined, like it helps motivate
people to determine what action do they.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Want to take.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
That's exactly right. So you're the leader of the Environmental
Justice initiative, what else are you involved in or that
you're engaged in that is really exciting? Because that Position
to Pollutions project does seem very exciting and really invigorating
for communities. I wonder what else you're working on or
what you're planning on doing looking forward with the initiative
(42:56):
that really gets you up and really gets you motivated morning.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Well, I have to say, like I've been really I'm
really grateful that there have.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
Been so many arenas for me to expand on this,
this work of achieving social justice in a place that
means so much to me. I started out, you know,
I came into the practice of environmental law, focusing on
water transition to doing more work in transportation, public transportation
(43:26):
and you know, looking at where trying to prevent road
projects that we're going to be extremely devastating and not
that helpful, and determined that I wanted to have a
regional I want to have regional impact, and being at SELC,
I've been able to do that. Like I'm licensed in
the state of North Carolina, but you know, we can
(43:46):
practice in any other state through the pro hot VJ process.
But things that we're doing right now, I mean a
lot of the work that we're doing is response to
the current federal administration. It's really playing defense and protecting
the laws that we have on the books that are
meant to create a more level playing field. So we're
(44:08):
you know, there's again the federal funding freeze litigation.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
There is.
Speaker 4 (44:15):
Work to actually do all that we can to prevent
repeal of civil rights regulations that have been of assistance
to communities and helping achieve environmental justice.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
But you know, those regulations are they're in peril.
Speaker 4 (44:30):
So part of what we do is participate in the
public comment process to do just put in the record,
here's how these here's why these regulations are still necessary.
Here's how we see that permitting decisions actually have the
effect of harming black communities and other communities of color
(44:54):
more and because those decisions have the effect of this
greater harm. These communities need to have this these regulations
remain in place so that they can actually file complaints
about those decisions. I think there's some more things that
are exciting, but I wanted to pause because you might
have had a.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
Follow Yeah, you know, I do, so I didn't realize
that there was. So what you just said was you're
on the front lines helping to avoid the repeal of
civil rights legislation, which some I have not heard yet,
(45:34):
And so I do want to know what is this
legislation that's being repealed or being attempted to be repealed,
Like what are we talking about? Because civil rights seem
to be very basic and very foundational to how our
society functions. So what are we in danger of losing?
Speaker 3 (45:57):
So?
Speaker 4 (46:00):
The Civil Rights Acts of nineteen sixty four does a
lot of things, but one of the things it does
is it prohibits discrimination and the use of federal funding.
So any entity that receives federal funding gets prohibited from
discriminating in how it's used in the environmental context. And
let me say every pretty much all the federal agencies
had have or had their own offices of.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
Civil rights, and.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
The ways that people are able to actually get action
underneath this statute.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
They can either they can make.
Speaker 4 (46:35):
An allegation of intentional discrimination, or they can make an
allegation of discrimination that's basically disparate impact. They make an
allegation that the actions of the Federal laid recipient had
the effect of discrimination, that it wasn't intentional, but it
had the effect. We have regulations that allow for complaints
(46:56):
based on that those regulations are those regulations are in peril.
We are at risk of losing those regulations. There have
been executive orders that direct our Attorney General to actually
do away with these regulations. They're each of the We
(47:16):
expect that federal agencies will one by one start the
repeal process for these regulations. And I do think that
it is unlawful to repeal long standing regulations by the
process that is being proposed. And of course, we are
(47:41):
also not at the point where that we've achieved equality,
that we've gotten to the foot. We still need the
regulations to be on the books, and it is very
difficult to prove intentional discrimination. But it is also the
case that there are actions of federal laid recipients that
have the effect of criminating. So but those those regulations
(48:03):
are in peril in the same way that efforts to
encourage diversity, equity and inclusion like that, those efforts are
also they've been attacked and in many instances.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
Removed.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
Like there are many states that just went ahead and started,
you know, engaging in their own legislative processes to go
after any any efforts to encourage or support diversity, equity
and inclusion in many, many different arenas. So you know,
those are two examples.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Yeah, but it was my understanding that.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
So during the last administration there was a big push
for my environmental justice of funding lots of initiatives, big
grandiose displays of solidarity from the Office of Environmental Justice
(49:11):
and Civil Rights. I remember reading all those things talking
about on the podcast, and my point was back then
that executive orders are easy to undo, and that in
order for things to really be firm and reliable, it
needs to be passed as a law. And so all
the executive orders that Biden did, Trump came in and
(49:33):
just literally just undid them, like control all just reverse them.
But I just assumed that if we had a law,
you can't just no longer have the law. You can't
executive order the law away, and an agency can't just
(49:55):
disregard the laws without Congress acting or without some kind
of legislative process or some kind of Supreme Court decision.
I guess that deems the law unconstitutional. There's no other
way to come out from under these laws. So the
idea that any agency would just decide not to obey
(50:19):
that law anymore seems ridiculous and clearly illegal. And so
are you having to fight those kinds of battles and
convince the EPA that needs to continue to obey the
law that's on the record since nineteen sixty four, is
(50:44):
that what we're doing.
Speaker 4 (50:46):
That's what we're doing. So Executive Order fourteen to eighty one.
This executive order defined you United States policy to eliminate
consideration of disparate impacts. It directs the Department of Justice
to appeal or amend civil rights regulations and to look
(51:07):
for similar rules at all other federal agencies and in states.
It directs all agencies to deprioritize enforcement of all statutes
and regulations to the extent that they account for disparate impacts.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
So it is an executive order.
Speaker 4 (51:24):
Executive orders don't have the force of law, but they
can encourage action or chill action. And this is an
executive order that has resulted in deprioritization of enforcement of
civil rights laws. And at the same time, one of
the things that has happened is that with EPA, the
(51:46):
whole Environmental Justice the Office of Environmental Justice has been dismantled, right,
so the staff that would need to be there to
actually do the work, that staff has been removed. So yes,
I would you know, the law still exists, someone should
still be enforcing them. Doj should still enforce civil rights laws?
(52:12):
What the situation that we are in right now is
that a administrative complaint can be filed to actually enforce
our civil rights law. And what happened in Louisiana is
that there there was a challenge to the legality of
the regulations themselves when a civil rights complaint was filed
(52:36):
and the result of that litigation has meant that in
the state of Louisiana those regulations cannot be enforced. So
the next level up would be, you know, there could
be a decision by the Supreme Court that would be
even more you know, it would have a wider application
(52:56):
than the state of than the application to the state
of Louisiana. The fact is is that though the law
is still on the books, they you know, there's only
been one agency, the Department of Energy, has moved to
repeal these regulations by a process that we have alleged
(53:20):
is an unlawful process.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
Yeah, they can't, though well can or they're arguing that
they can.
Speaker 4 (53:27):
Right. This is part of the work of defense and
maintaining what we have on the books, of recognizing when
the next agency attempts to repeal the regulations because they
do still exist. It is only in Louisiana where these
regulations cannot be enforced. But it's something that that's just
(53:47):
one of the arenas that we are working in to
do all that we can to make sure that existing
laws are able to be enforced in the future.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Oh my goodness, Okay, I didn't realize that. So I'm
glad you shared that with me and our listeners, because
I just always assume that once you get something into law,
you're good and it's just a matter of ensuring that
(54:21):
there's a mechanism to enforce it, which was the bigger concern,
right that the Environmental Justice Office is dismantled. You're laying
off staff at the EPA, You're laying off staff at
the CDC, You're laying off staff at all these agencies
so that you undermine their ability to enforce the laws
that are within their sphere of influence. But then now
(54:44):
you're saying that the President can just tell the Department
of Justice, Hey, we know the law is there, we
know they're complaining about people breaking the law. Just ignore
that and do something else instead and not enforce what
is currently required by law to be done in those
(55:07):
situations of injustice. That's very alarming and I wasn't prepared
for that when we started talking.
Speaker 4 (55:15):
Well, what I can say is that you know, states still,
you know, federal aid recipients still have an obligation to
actually not discriminate in the use of federal funding. So
I think that is a that's a bright light that
those federal aid recipients that are of the mind that
they should actually comply with the existing statute and the
regulations that they can still do that. Like, so while
(55:39):
there is a threat to the regulations, there's still a
requirement for the federal laid recipient to actually not discriminate,
like they they have a directive on the front end
to do what all they that they can to not
make decisions that have a discriminatory impact. And I mean,
(56:00):
I think on a note that is more proactive, less defensive.
I mean, the fact is is that plaintiffs can still
file lawsuits under our environmental laws to actually improve environmental
conditions where they are. So if we step aside from
the civil rights laws, which I do think are incredibly
(56:22):
important to achieving environmental justice, equally as important are the
Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, you know, ricrum
super fun like. We still have federal environmental laws that
have to be complied with, and we still have state
laws that have to be complied with. And then there
are some venues that are going to be venues that
(56:45):
are better for plaintiffs than others. And that's where I
think as an organization, we are looking at where are
what are the venues that are going to be most
helpful for doing or to protect communities and to prevent
additional harm. And communities still can comment in public processes
(57:07):
about you know, projects that they know are maybe bad
for them. They can continue to do their own monitoring
of air quality, They can still make complaints when there
are you know, when there's too much dust, when they
see something wrong with the creek in their community, they
can still complain to state regulators. State regulators still have
(57:28):
they still have responsibility, environmental protection responsibilities, and communities can
still organize. So there are a lot of threats that
are out there, but there's still so much action that
people can take to protect themselves to prevent additional harm.
Speaker 2 (57:44):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
Wow, Well, I'm glad you're doing that work, and I'm
glad that you have a team behind you that's pushing
for all this to be done, because, I mean, you're
fighting for things I didn't even realize we're problems and issues,
and so I'm definitely excited about that.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
We hit an hour. I don't know how much time
you have left to talk.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
I do want to spend some time just understanding how
we can support the work that you're doing, How we
can be a part of all that you have going on,
how we can engage listeners people like me who are
just learning this for the first time. How can we
get involved with what you're doing.
Speaker 4 (58:23):
So definitely please check out Plantations to Pollution, Black Communities,
Legacy Pollution, The Path for or please go to the website.
Please support environmental justice organizations there, you know, like whether
that's with volunteer time, whether it's financial support. I will
say that environmental justice organizations have always been under resource
(58:44):
and are under even more pressure now because of the
rollback and federal funding that was meant to provide support
to help achieve these outcomes. Definitely getting engaged on these issues,
to protect our to protect our bedrock, environmental and civil
rights laws. So that is engaging with decision makers, whether
(59:06):
that's members of Congress or on the state level where
there are opportunities to Sometimes there's some opportunities to support
environmental justice UH legislation, environmental justice executive action in North
Carolina and Virginia, those opportunities are available. Making sure to
engage in local zoning decisions, being able to connect again
(59:29):
the prior harm to current present day and justices, to
understand how redlining of black communities resulted in disinvestment and
now you know there's blight in these communities. Understanding those
connections and then taking action in you know, in your
own community, supporting groups that are doing environmental justice work.
(59:52):
That I think those are ways that you can get involved.
And you know, we always appreciate people supporting the Southern
Environmental Law Center. We provide our services at no cost,
and that's from our representation to consultants, to experts. We're
providing that service free of charge to community organize communities,
(01:00:18):
to other nonprofits. So that's who we are supporting. So
this to support SELC to do that work, it is
in turn supporting those community groups. So support the community
groups directly and if you so choose, support SEOC as
we do this work to achieve environmental justice.
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Oh wonderful, wonderful.
Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
If so for the communit leaders listening, if they see
a need and they want to engage your services, what's
the best way to do that? Is there a particular
form they fill out? Is there a place they go
on the website to ask for some help?
Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Like?
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
How does that work?
Speaker 4 (01:00:55):
Right?
Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:00:55):
Like people get in touch with like people called call us.
Like people can just call the or organization and say
here's what the issue is, and that call gets routed
to the subject matter expert at the organization to determine
whether or not the issue area is within our.
Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
Is within our expertise? Is it something that we can
take on? So people can reach out yet directly to
a CLC through our website or through calling one of
our offices, one of our nine offices.
Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
I know, all across the South. And so before you go,
don't leave yet.
Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
I always give our guests a couple of minutes at
the end to just share with us whatever you want
us to know. However you're feeling about the way things
are going, what you think is most important for us
to leave with at this conversation. What is that thing
that when I turn off this recording, when I end
(01:01:57):
this podcast, you want me to remember from our conversation today.
Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
One thing I want everyone to remember is that you know,
we still have very powerful tools to help us get
to the ends that we want to get to, to
protect communities, to protect public health. You know, we can
still file citizen suits, We can still comment in public processes.
We can still ask for public information, We can file
(01:02:24):
freedom of information at request, we can file public records requests.
Because sunshine is the best disinfectant, we want to shine
a light on what is happening, and we want to
be aware.
Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
So we can still do that.
Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
There are lots of data and mapping tools that are
still available for people to find out like what is
happening in their community. What are you know, are there
underground storage tanks, are there urban heat islands? What are
the issues that are in community? There are still there
are still mapping tools that are available for that. We
(01:02:58):
still have environmental justice in some of our states that
we want to rely on. I want people to also
know that there is strength in numbers, that organizing is
always going to be an incredibly effective tool to get
good outcomes. I do want people to think about history
(01:03:19):
as context for the present and be inspired to act
in the ways that you think are going to be
most effective to get some progress in environmental protection and
public health.
Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
But you know, more of more voices, is more.
Speaker 4 (01:03:34):
Attention, and you know, think about sharing resources, whether that's money,
where that that's expertise, whether that's experienced.
Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
And engage with media.
Speaker 4 (01:03:45):
Engage with media, learn about what these issues are, you know,
stay connected through through news outlets, UH and make sure
that you're speaking up on the issues that matter to
you in coalition with others. So those are some things
that I would like to leave the audience with. And
(01:04:06):
you know, this is where we're in a time that
I think is temporary. Will there'll be a change in tide.
So while you know we may be playing defense right now,
there is you know, there's.
Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
Still something to fight for.
Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
So I think to stay encouraged while we get to
you know, another day that is brighter.
Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Oh that's perfect, That's perfect.
Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
And so with that, Seandra, I want to thank you
again for joining us on the podcast. Thank you for
your expertise, for your advocacy, and for your hard work.
I know it's hard work doing what you do day
in and day out, fighting the good fight, my mom says,
doing the Lord's work, and so I appreciate you and
(01:04:52):
thank you so much for coming onto the podcast today.
Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
Thank you so much for spending so much time with me,
your patience, and you're a good question. I really enjoyed
the time together.
Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
No, it was my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
And so with that, I want to thank you all
for listening to another episode of the Environmental Justice Lab podcast,
where we are for the people and the planet.
Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab podcast. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph, and today on this episode, we have
a very very special guest.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Her name is.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Chandra Taylor Sawyer. She is a senior attorney at the
Southern Environmental Law Center. Sandra, thank you so much for
being with us today.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
My pleasure. Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Absolutely So I have a little bio. I want to
read it for our listeners because I want them to
really feel who's joining us today on this podcast. So
I'm going to read it is pretty extensive. Sondra is
a senior attorney at the Southern Environmental Law Center and
leads its environmental justice initiative. For nearly two decades, she
(01:13):
has worked to confront the disproportionate burdened the pollution born
by communities of color and low wealth neighborhoods across the South.
That's the South and the United States. We have an
international audience for those of you listening outside of the US.
In the southern part of the United States, she is
a leader and fighting for environmental justice in that area.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Her legal career.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Spans water quality advocacy, industrial halk operation reform, and litigation
to clean up toxic waste sits, always with the focus
on protecting public health and elevating community voices six twenty sixteen.
She has also served as an adjunct faculty member at
the University of North Carolina School of Law, teaching environmental justice, law, policy,
(01:57):
and regulation. Sondra has been wrecked recognized nationally for her leadership,
including as an Audubon Together Green Fellow, and she currently
serves on the boards of the University of North Carolina
Institute for the Environment, the Greater Triangle Area Chapter of
the American Red Cross, and the National Environmental Education Foundation.
(02:22):
She is also a North Carolina native and a graduate
of the great University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
That is who we're talking to today, in case you're wondering,
and so it is my honor and privilege to spend
this time with you on the.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Podcast mine as well, doctor Lovely, So.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
What I like to do with all of our guests,
especially distinguished ones, is learned about their background, where they
came from, how they got into this environmental justice world,
and how they ended up where they ended up, whether
they's an organization, the university, a nonprofit and so tell
our listeners about your upbringing, about your background, how you
(03:09):
got involved environmental justice. Was it an event, a circumstance situation,
just observing things and just go from there.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
So my interest in environmental justice work really stems from
two things. First, it is been a lifelong desire of
mind to engage in ways that helped create a level
(03:42):
playing field for everyone.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
It's been present in my mind.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
And the triggering event that I think back to was
growing up in the nineties and seeing that end.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
To South African apartheid.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
So I was in college and I saw what was
happening across the world. I saw this nation come to
a point where it was going to eradicate what had
been basically legalized racism in an entire nation. And they
(04:27):
came to that point with a combination of international pressure,
organizing of people in that nation, long term advocacy of
extraordinary leadership. I think we all heard about what Nelson
Mandela was able to do in that nation, and even
(04:49):
though it was on the other side of the world,
from my perspective, I felt like I was seeing.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Like a unveiling of their civil rights movement.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
So I wasn't born yet when the United States was
going through the Civil rights movement. But in the fifties
in the United States, we saw the end to segregation
with Brownbee Board of Education. There were so many laws
(05:23):
passed in the fifties that were meant to help create
create a level playing field for people in this country.
There was, you know, we saw the end to Jim Crow.
There was the passage of the Fair Housing Act. In
the sixties, we saw the passage of the Civil Rights Act,
(05:44):
and all of these things I know about because I
was reading history. I wasn't there to experience those things firsthand,
but as a freshman in college, I was able to see, like.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
This is their civil rights movement.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
This is so motivating, And I think that part of
what I'm going to do with my work as a
human being, as a person is to help create a
level playing field for everyone to live the lives that
they envision for themselves. So I've always had a very
strong interest in social justice. I feel like I had
(06:21):
a lot of support for my pursuits, my exploration of
African American history, of African history. I'm from Kinston, North Carolina.
I went to a predominantly black high school. I felt like,
I was really encouraged to look at you know, you know,
what can be done for an equal playing field? What
(06:43):
can be done to uh have equality for everyone? What
can what can I do to contribute to that. My
grandmother was the cafeteria manager. She was the you know,
a woman who was doing what I thought also was helping,
you know, create a level playing field. She was providing
food for elementary school students and I loved going to
(07:06):
see her every day. But she was also providing an
example of a person who was engaged in civic life.
She you know, participated in making sure there was food
for people during the holiday season.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
She had so much to give and I got to.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
You know, have a mentor in that regard, like somebody
who was always looking out to help her community. So
that has been one of my lifelong interests. And then
I'm also a person who was always interested in science.
I said, if I went to a smaller university, I
(07:41):
probably would have become a scientist. I am a very
strong supporter of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
It is a huge school.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
So I started out at Carolina thinking that I would be,
you know, a scientist, a physician, and and all of
my acumen that so far in science, it did not
stand up to the test of college. So I said,
(08:13):
let me lean into my strengths. What is it that
I am good at? And you know, research, writing, advocacy
were areas that were a more natural fit for my
skill set than to continue in the hard sciences. But
that didn't diminish my interest. So, you know, interest in
(08:33):
social justice, interest in science, those things both led to
a career seeking to achieve environmental justice.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Now, before.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Coming to Southern Environmental Law Center, I actually practiced consumer
protection law. So I did that for five years before
transitioning to Southern Environmental Law Center and practicing environmental law.
And I went into consumer law practice because I was like,
this is an area of social justice.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
This is about economic opportunity.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
It's about making sure that people are not preyed upon
with predatory loan products, with predatory credit cards, even looking
at making sure that people didn't have predatory rental agreement.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Lease agreements for their home.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
And I said to myself, you know, this is where
I think that I will have a really meaningful impact
to people who I feel like I see and I
interact with every day, and that was my choice. My
first you know, I was entertaining coming out of law
school international human rights, environmental law, or consumer financial protection.
(09:48):
But I spent five years in consumer financial protection. And
then around the time where I recognized that our national
banking laws were actually prohibiting consumers from actually getting ahead
that I was I was observing, I was like, I
(10:11):
we represented lots of people who were facing foreclosure. We had,
there was a strong North Carolina Anti Predatory Mortgage Lending Act.
We were bringing these cases, but we were getting preempted
by a national banking Act that was actually protecting lenders
and not making lenders actually do right by consumers.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And I was like, this is an uphill battle.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
And until we have some reform with our national banking laws,
with consumer financial protection, this is going to be a
area that I can't do what I think I am.
I can't provide the assistance or the relief that I
think should be possible. And I started looking for what
(10:56):
I would choose to do next, and I said, Okay,
what is next on the horizon for me? And I
heard on NPR about the work of Southern Environmental Law Center.
So in two thousand and six, SELC was involved in
litigation to improve air quality improve air quality in the Southeast,
(11:21):
and I was like, this is an organization that is
well resourced enough and that has an intention that is
about protecting public health that I know will actually be
remarkably effective in helping achieve environmental justice. I was like,
SEOC might not be calling the work that it does
(11:44):
environmental justice work, but I was like, an organization that's
based in the Southeast, which is SELC is based in
the Southeast, that is really intentional about making sure that
everybody has a healthy environment is a place that I
think that I'm going to be able to grow and
do this work of achieving environmental justice. And there was
(12:07):
a position open at SELC. I applied for a lateral
move at five years of practice and made the case
about how my experience thus far would translate into practicing
environmental law. And certainly I do think that my passion
for the work was probably more in depth than my
(12:29):
exposure to bedrock environmental laws. But I didn't think that
that was going to create a barrier in me having
extraordinary impact along with people who I already considered extraordinary.
I was like, these people doing this work they're going
to do amazing things. I'm going to be able to
do amazing things with them. So that's my path to
(12:51):
practicing environmental law and practicing environmental law to achieve environmental
justice at SELC, and I have been at SELC nineteen
years at.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
This point, wow, nineteen years. A couple of questions.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
You mentioned at the beginning that seeing what happened in
South Africa was one of the things that really motivated
you to do the work that you're doing now and
really pushed you inteaction that you're going in that you've
gone in, which is kind of surprising to me because
looking outside. So first of all, I know, when I
(13:31):
was younger, I didn't really pay much attention to world affairs,
global affairs. I was very much in my own little
bubble in South Caroline where I'm from. And so the
here you talk about how you watched and saw South
Africa's kind of civil rights movement there push to end
apartheid as a motivating factor is really interesting, and I
(13:55):
wonder why that didn't take you on an international kind
of trajectory looking at other parts of the world. There
are other parts of the you know, hemisphere that may
have been in need of that same kind of liberation
because you mentioned, Okay, the US, we had our civil
rights movement, we inter segregation, I call it American apartheid
(14:18):
here and move through that. You see South Africa, and
I would think you would say, oh, I wonder where
else in the world these civil rights need to be realized.
But you stayed in the South, working in the South.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I would love to learn more about how that, in
your mind played into what you're doing. And I'm also
interested in the transition from consumer protection law to environmental law.
Was that a hard shift? I always hear from lawyers
how certain types of laws is pricing law this way
is not like the other kinds. So you can't just
(14:56):
go from you know, criminal to administrative and from consumer
to environmental environmental to trial. And I don't know if
they're trying to just tell me that because they want
me to know how specific their particular field is, or
if it really is like a hard lift to transition
from one type of law practice to something that from
(15:19):
my perspective seems to be totally different. What was that
like for you and how did you navigate that shift
toward environmental law?
Speaker 4 (15:31):
So I'll start with the decision to keep my focus
more domestic, even though my motivation came from actions that
I saw happening, you know, across the world.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So we still see that even though we.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Saw the end to segregation in the United States, that
hasn't resulted in the gains that should have been realized
with the passage of the Civil Rights Act, the passage
of the Fair Housing Act, with the end to Jim Crow.
I mean, it is still a fact that black communities,
(16:18):
black families are seventy five percent more likely to live
in close proximity to polluting facilities than white families. It's
still true that there are enormous wealth disparities in the
United States between Black and Hispanic families and white families.
It's still true that with maternal health, black mothers are
(16:41):
far more likely to die related to pregnancy complications than
white women. The fact is is, though even though there
should be a great deal of progress, there has not
been enough. So it I was I'm still very interested
and what happens across the world, all around the world,
(17:04):
but from my perspective, there was a great need for
actions that I could take in the United States, like
we haven't come as far as we need to come
in terms of social justice, and social justice ends for
you know, all of our people. So that was you know,
(17:30):
I did consider international human rights. I really loved my
clinic in law school. I really enjoyed working on asylum cases,
doing work to you know, help people who were fleeing
violence in their own country.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
I thought that was important work.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
But from my perspective, I was like, how can I
have the most impact, how can I engage directly with people.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Right where I am?
Speaker 4 (17:57):
And that choice to go into consumer financial protection law
and then to remain in environmental law in the United
States it was motivated by me envisioning having a greater
impact here domestically. But I will also say that my
transition to environmental law also had to do with the
(18:19):
fact that the regular you know, a scheme to actually
protect the environment, to set up regulations that are protective,
that that actually has international application, you know, the way
that we determine, like you know, we have permits to pollute.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
That's how our environmental.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Protection system exists to limit certain pollutants. Actually it is
quite protective. I did spend time in China with an
exchange program that was sponsored by the Department of State
and the Woodrow Wilson Institute. I did that with the
Vermont Law School Environmental Justice Exchange Program, and I remember
(19:03):
being in Beijing and trying to exercise outside and feeling
like an asthmatic and we were and I'm not an asthmatic,
Like that's not something that like, thankfully, even though African
Americans are more likely to suffer from asthma than white communities,
often because of the proximity to polluting facilities, that's not
(19:29):
something that I had experienced before going to China and
their environmental protection system is younger than ours, but it
really brought home to me, like, here's how our permits
that limit the amount of pollutants that can be released
actually help us, because I was in a situation where
I was like, they have a young system, the regulations
(19:52):
were not working appropriately, and it was hard to breathe.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
But so.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
That was just an example of you know, I feel
like I do get some taste of international application of
the work in the practice of environmental law, but still
am very interested in being working stateside because we have
so far to go. And then on a question of
transitioning from consumer financial protection law to environmental law. I
(20:23):
do think it is a heavy lift, but I don't
think it's an impossible lift. And I would tell anyone
that when you are very motivated to do something, you're
willing to put in the work to do that lift,
especially if it's not beyond your capacity. Like I realized,
I wasn't going to become a chemistry PhD. But I
(20:46):
could become an environmental lawyer. I don't have to understand
all of the science. I need to understand some of it,
and I need to consult with an expert to go,
you know, the final mile.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I think so. I think that's the short answer to
the question.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
It is a heavy lift, but it's not impossible, especially
when you're very motivated to do work in a particular
practice area, you know. I think it's just taking the
time to do it, deciding what you need to study,
consulting with the right mentors, consulting with the right sponsors,
taking the additional courses, and doing the work.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Nice, very nice. So now, so now you're at the
Southern Environmental Law Center. You've been there for nineteen years,
and from what you said earlier, you wanted to go
there because of a story you heard on NPR talking
about its work. And so now that you're there, what
(21:47):
would you say is the mission of the SCLC, What
are they trying to do and what is there made
you're pushing initiatives throughout the center because I'm curious. The
reason I'm asking is because in the South especially, and
I'm sure across the country too, but in the South,
(22:09):
there's so many issues, so many problems, and when I
read about a company and an organization called the Southern
Environmental Law Center, it gives me the impression that they
can't possibly be doing all the things that I would
think in environmental heals there needs to do because there's
too many issues. And so I wonder if there's any
(22:32):
particular focus area, any particular driving mission that you kind
of are dialed into that's specific to the Law Center
that you could tell us about.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
So right now, so I'm dialed into leading our environmental
justice initiatives. So we have done work that I think
is consequential toward improving public health, toward protecting the environment
for Southerners, for people in the South East. You know,
for almost almost forty years. The Environmental Justice Initiative was
(23:05):
created in twenty twenty one, so there was an intention
of leadership of the organization to put a thumb on
the scale to actually do more in terms of representing
partnering with the most overburdened communities in our region. That
(23:27):
the South has created problems and that the South can
actually help solve problems, and some of those problems relate
to systematic, systemic racial injustice. So our leadership put environmental
justice in our strategic plan and I was asked to
(23:51):
make sure that we were carrying out these objectives. So
I am dialed in to doing that. And I think
you're absolutely right your your perspective in that there are
so many issues. Certainly we cannot cover all of them. However,
I would say with the Environmental Justice Initiative, one of
the things that we seek to do is to listen
(24:15):
to people who are frontline to environmental harm, Listen to
the most vulnerable communities, listen to communities of color about
what issues are front of mind, are causing the most
harm for them, and that actually helps direct how we
allocate the resources that we have as an organization toward
(24:37):
the ends of reducing those burdens of preventing additional harm.
So while we can't do everything we do partner with
communities who are frontline to find out what are the
most pressing harms. And you know, we've heard over and
over again about issues that zoning issues on the local level.
You know, that comes up so frequently, so many decisions
(25:00):
about whether a facility is going to be a polluting
facility is going to be able to cite in close
proximity to a residential community that has been disinvested in
and thus is more attractive to a uh, you know,
industry because it's cheaper land near this disinvested a community
(25:22):
that's been disinvested in the decision about whether that facility
can cite near a residential area, that's a local zoning
decision that comes up. So we've chosen to engage in
some issues related to zoning and land use that is
right there. In parallel with our Landing Community program, we
(25:48):
also do research about what does a data show are
the issues that are causing most harm. And we you know,
we looked at air quality in our region and recognize
hot spots, pollution hot spots in mobile pollution hot spots
in Northern Birmingham, pollution hot spots in Memphis, and we
(26:13):
have been able to partner with organizations that are working
to alleviate those harms, and our staff, our attorneys, our
geospatial staff are engaging in work to improve air quality
in those same areas. So we have as an organization,
(26:37):
just as a matter of fact, six program areas and
two cross programmatic initiatives. So the Environmental Justice Initiative is
across all our programs, The Climate Initiative is across all
of our programs. But we also have attorneys working on forest,
(26:57):
wetliss and coast water, air energy and then Landing Community
which is really looking at transportation, zoning issues, responsible development,
and growth. So you're right, there are so many issues.
There are always more issues than there are attorneys. There's
more issues than there are actually laws to protect against harm.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
But we focus our work through the.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
Lens of our programs and our initiatives, and the Environmental
Justice Initiative is really looking at all of our program
areas and saying, you know, how do we actually reduce
harm in these areas for communities that are most vulnerable,
for communities of color, for low wealth communities. So you're right,
(27:47):
there is a lot to do, but we do have
our own internal prioritization and we are listening to what
our partner groups say are the most present harms.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Nice I want to drill down a little bit on
the issue of zoning just for a second, because I
know for me, I mean, I'm in the academic space,
and so collecting data is what we like to do.
So water quality data is always something that we look at,
and air quality data and you know, infrastructure qualities, things
(28:24):
that we can collect that we can visibly see and
touch and report on.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
And it's always fun for me to do that.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
But I think this issue of zoning is something that
we really don't talk about in the academic world, but
it seems like it's a really really big issue and
a really really big concern. And the way it was
explaining to me was a big corporation comes with the
desire to build a facilities somewhere. They pick the cheapest,
(28:56):
lowest income area, and there's a vote to determine if
they'll be allowed to build there, and usually they sell
them on economic development, job creation, and voila, the council
(29:17):
agrees and they vote to allow that facility.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
To be built there.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
And what I'm always told is, oh, we need people
to come to those meetings and raise their voices and
tell people how they feel, how they be impacted, and
raise concern about these places coming to their communities. But essentially,
in the end, it's the people voting that would be
(29:45):
the ones who determine whether or not a facility gets
placed there, and that's how it ends up going. First,
is that a fair characterization? And two, if it is,
where does a law center get involved there? Because it
does feel very much like a public comment conversation with
(30:08):
elected officials making the found decision, apart from any other
kind of influence, And so how does the SELC enter
into those kinds of conversations, those kinds of concerns and
exert I don't know if it's legal pressure, if it's
like advocacy pressure to try and prevent those harms from
(30:33):
coming to those communities.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
So we are going to use whatever tools are in
the toolbox to help get to the ends that our
clients and partners are seeking to get to. And I
do think that your characterization, I think it's spot on
(30:58):
in terms of how decisions get made. I would also
add that pressure from an organized public is extraordinarily meaningful.
Pressure from an organized public in the public comment process
does have outcomes that can be very favorable to a
(31:21):
community that's advocating for an outcome that's different than.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
What seems to be on the table.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Uh. And so you know, one we engaged with a
community uh in Savannah, Georgia that it was a residential
community that was in very close proximity to a vehicle
transfer station, so basically there, you know, it's a residential community,
(31:52):
but there was a auto import company that was basically
bringing cars in and out of this residential community so
in commerce. And the community was really disturbed about the
amount of traffic that was created by this facility being
(32:12):
in a residential neighborhood. They were concerned about the condition
of some of the vehicles and what impact it would
have on the actual physical environment of this neighborhood. And
there we actually helped in a communications capacity for that community.
So they wanted to have press conferences to pressure the
(32:38):
local zoning authority to actually panelize the auto export facility
from to penalize them for violations of local zoning regulations.
And you know, we provided communication support. We provided you know,
help with yard signs for the protests associated with it,
(32:59):
with talking points for the community, with their press conference
and with with research that supported that that actual that
facility was actually in violation of the local zoning ordinance.
So actually getting the regulators to come out to the
community and cite that facility for violations of the local
(33:22):
zoning ordinance. So that's one example, and I mean the
outcome eventually got to that facility moving out of that
community or promising to move out of that community.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
So you know, that is one of the ways.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
To get involved is with you know, communications by an
organized community that has recognized when you know there's somebody
in the neighborhood that is violating the local zoning ordinance.
In terms of facilities that might be trying to come in,
(33:56):
there have been engagements where you know, we are recognizing, oh,
the local zoning authority, they're not complying with public notice.
So public notice that says, you know, you have to
advertise that you're going to vote on this change in
zoning that will allow this particular polluting facility in. So
(34:21):
we're on the lookout for that did the local zoning
authority follow its own rules? And if they don't, then
we are prepared in those situations to actually file a
lawsuit to ask them to not proceed with the vote.
So those are just two examples of how to get involved.
But it does take an organized community to actually raise
(34:44):
the flag, and the organized community is going to be
most influential to the zoning authority, the planning commission, the
border counting commissioners, whoever is making those zoning decisions. I mean,
there are certainly situations where you know, where of the
community fall on deaf ears, but there are also many
instances where opposition to placement of a data center in
(35:10):
Virginia like that, it doesn't go forward because of organized
opposition of people who are concerned about what it would
mean to see a data center set up in their community.
So I do think you're right, and I do think
that organized pressure understanding what the laws are, understanding what
the rules are, can influence those processes. But it is
(35:34):
absolutely true that zoning issues actually in up creating environmental
injustices over and over again.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
No, absolutely, And that's what.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I'm being told more now is the kind of thing
that we should focus on in terms of stemming the
tide of environmental justice injustice versus trying to look for
specific instances of pollution or specific areas that are kind
of degraded, like the way cities are laid out, the
(36:10):
way they're planned, the way facilities are cited, the way
those areas are managed by the city itself becomes almost
a much bigger issue than just whether or not the
water is cleaning the air is clean. And so I've
been thinking about that a lot, and it's good to
know that this kind of organized opposition can really yield
(36:35):
positive results and really shift the I guess like a
better word, environment that people are experiencing where they live.
Just a quick question, what does SELC consider the South?
Because you mentioned Virginia, Is that south?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
For for a CLC is the South?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Okay, so what it covered south?
Speaker 4 (37:03):
SEOC works in North Carolina, South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, Virginia,
and Tennessee, and we also have an office in Washington,
d C. Our Federal Affairs team is in Washington, d C.
Because we are also engaging with members of Congress and
engaging with the federal executive and agencies regarding environmental protection,
(37:29):
improvement of public health in the Southeast. We primarily work
in those six Southeastern states, though occasionally we engage in
matters outside of the sixth Southeastern states. Sometimes there are
matters of national significance. Right now, we're engaged into federal
(37:52):
funding freeze cases that have clients from outside of the
Southeast that in that work is specifically about making sure
that these groups that are doing work to improve the environment,
to improve public health, to provide food for people in need,
(38:16):
that they actually get the funding that Congress allocated and
said should go to those communities to do that work.
And those are two cases of national national coverage. But
that's those are those states are the states in which
we primarily work.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Okay, and I cut you off earlier, what were you
going to say?
Speaker 4 (38:42):
And it was in terms of influence that people can
have in the planning and zoning process.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
I just was going to mention the our new.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Multimedia storytelling project Plantations to Pollution Black Communities like Pollution
and a path forward that I am very hopeful that
people will take the time to go to that web page.
It is a wonderfully it's visually stunning and the information
is incredibly helpful in connecting past harm to current injustice
(39:20):
and actually being able to show a through line from
how in zoning situations, how historic disinvestment has resulted in
neighborhoods that are in need of help, that are in
need of decisions that actually support them to.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Improve their environment.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
That historic injustice has made it more difficult for them
to get ahead today. And one of those stories is
in the Berkeley community, the Berkeley neighborhood in Norfolk, and
that's a community that had been.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Disinvested in.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
And when it came time and it has flooded over
and over, Like, there are issues with flooding in that community.
So in terms of like looking at what are the environmental.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Issues, well, the.
Speaker 4 (40:06):
Local authorities that needed to make a decision about how
do we shore up this community so that they don't
have these flooding issues. Well, before intensive organizing by that community,
there was a decision made that basically acknowledged, oh, the
property values are just so depressed in this community that
it would actually cost more to protect it from additional
(40:30):
flooding than what the value of the.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Property actually is.
Speaker 4 (40:35):
Well, it was like pressure from people in that community
to say, like here, here's why these property values are depressed,
and we are still a community and we're still in
need of being protected. So in the same way that
these local decision makers are going to protect other areas
(40:58):
of Norfolk from concent you know, consistent flooding. The Berkeley
community needs that as well, and they're organizing and their
advocacy did get them included in the plan for protection
from flooding. So I mean, I think, you know, that's
one of those instances of there is a particular like
environmental harm, which is you know, there's you know, climate
(41:19):
change driven flooding and flooding that relates to you know,
systemic disinvestment or even granting low lying land to people
black communities who were seeking to have somewhere to live
post enslavement. They're the environmental issues, but there's also these
planning and zoning decisions about and you know local municipal
(41:41):
decisions about well what do we do to actually alleviate
this harm? And that's one of those local decisions that
by organizing, by putting pressure on decision making decision makers,
showing them about the past, enlightening them about the present,
that they actually got a result that is favorable and
(42:03):
that is about protecting that community from you know, future flooding.
So it's just an example, uh, to follow on to
what you were saying, and you know, a mention of
a really great project that I think is illuminating in
a lot of ways, and that Plantations to.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Pollution is uh.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
It allows people to make the connections between prior harm
and current injustice and then determined, like it helps motivate
people to determine what action do they.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Want to take.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
That's exactly right. So you're the leader of the Environmental
Justice initiative, what else are you involved in or that
you're engaged in that is really exciting? Because that Position
to Pollutions project does seem very exciting and really invigorating
for communities. I wonder what else you're working on or
what you're planning on doing looking forward with the initiative
(42:56):
that really gets you up and really gets you motivated morning.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Well, I have to say, like I've been really I'm
really grateful that there have.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
Been so many arenas for me to expand on this,
this work of achieving social justice in a place that
means so much to me. I started out, you know,
I came into the practice of environmental law, focusing on
water transition to doing more work in transportation, public transportation
(43:26):
and you know, looking at where trying to prevent road
projects that we're going to be extremely devastating and not
that helpful, and determined that I wanted to have a
regional I want to have regional impact, and being at SELC,
I've been able to do that. Like I'm licensed in
the state of North Carolina, but you know, we can
(43:46):
practice in any other state through the pro hot VJ process.
But things that we're doing right now, I mean a
lot of the work that we're doing is response to
the current federal administration. It's really playing defense and protecting
the laws that we have on the books that are
meant to create a more level playing field. So we're
(44:08):
you know, there's again the federal funding freeze litigation.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
There is.
Speaker 4 (44:15):
Work to actually do all that we can to prevent
repeal of civil rights regulations that have been of assistance
to communities and helping achieve environmental justice.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
But you know, those regulations are they're in peril.
Speaker 4 (44:30):
So part of what we do is participate in the
public comment process to do just put in the record,
here's how these here's why these regulations are still necessary.
Here's how we see that permitting decisions actually have the
effect of harming black communities and other communities of color
(44:54):
more and because those decisions have the effect of this
greater harm. These communities need to have this these regulations
remain in place so that they can actually file complaints
about those decisions. I think there's some more things that
are exciting, but I wanted to pause because you might
have had a.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
Follow Yeah, you know, I do, so I didn't realize
that there was. So what you just said was you're
on the front lines helping to avoid the repeal of
civil rights legislation, which some I have not heard yet,
(45:34):
And so I do want to know what is this
legislation that's being repealed or being attempted to be repealed,
Like what are we talking about? Because civil rights seem
to be very basic and very foundational to how our
society functions. So what are we in danger of losing?
Speaker 3 (45:57):
So?
Speaker 4 (46:00):
The Civil Rights Acts of nineteen sixty four does a
lot of things, but one of the things it does
is it prohibits discrimination and the use of federal funding.
So any entity that receives federal funding gets prohibited from
discriminating in how it's used in the environmental context. And
let me say every pretty much all the federal agencies
had have or had their own offices of.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
Civil rights, and.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
The ways that people are able to actually get action
underneath this statute.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
They can either they can make.
Speaker 4 (46:35):
An allegation of intentional discrimination, or they can make an
allegation of discrimination that's basically disparate impact. They make an
allegation that the actions of the Federal laid recipient had
the effect of discrimination, that it wasn't intentional, but it
had the effect. We have regulations that allow for complaints
(46:56):
based on that those regulations are those regulations are in peril.
We are at risk of losing those regulations. There have
been executive orders that direct our Attorney General to actually
do away with these regulations. They're each of the We
(47:16):
expect that federal agencies will one by one start the
repeal process for these regulations. And I do think that
it is unlawful to repeal long standing regulations by the
process that is being proposed. And of course, we are
(47:41):
also not at the point where that we've achieved equality,
that we've gotten to the foot. We still need the
regulations to be on the books, and it is very
difficult to prove intentional discrimination. But it is also the
case that there are actions of federal laid recipients that
have the effect of criminating. So but those those regulations
(48:03):
are in peril in the same way that efforts to
encourage diversity, equity and inclusion like that, those efforts are
also they've been attacked and in many instances.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
Removed.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
Like there are many states that just went ahead and started,
you know, engaging in their own legislative processes to go
after any any efforts to encourage or support diversity, equity
and inclusion in many, many different arenas. So you know,
those are two examples.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Yeah, but it was my understanding that.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
So during the last administration there was a big push
for my environmental justice of funding lots of initiatives, big
grandiose displays of solidarity from the Office of Environmental Justice
(49:11):
and Civil Rights. I remember reading all those things talking
about on the podcast, and my point was back then
that executive orders are easy to undo, and that in
order for things to really be firm and reliable, it
needs to be passed as a law. And so all
the executive orders that Biden did, Trump came in and
(49:33):
just literally just undid them, like control all just reverse them.
But I just assumed that if we had a law,
you can't just no longer have the law. You can't
executive order the law away, and an agency can't just
(49:55):
disregard the laws without Congress acting or without some kind
of legislative process or some kind of Supreme Court decision.
I guess that deems the law unconstitutional. There's no other
way to come out from under these laws. So the
idea that any agency would just decide not to obey
(50:19):
that law anymore seems ridiculous and clearly illegal. And so
are you having to fight those kinds of battles and
convince the EPA that needs to continue to obey the
law that's on the record since nineteen sixty four, is
(50:44):
that what we're doing.
Speaker 4 (50:46):
That's what we're doing. So Executive Order fourteen to eighty one.
This executive order defined you United States policy to eliminate
consideration of disparate impacts. It directs the Department of Justice
to appeal or amend civil rights regulations and to look
(51:07):
for similar rules at all other federal agencies and in states.
It directs all agencies to deprioritize enforcement of all statutes
and regulations to the extent that they account for disparate impacts.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
So it is an executive order.
Speaker 4 (51:24):
Executive orders don't have the force of law, but they
can encourage action or chill action. And this is an
executive order that has resulted in deprioritization of enforcement of
civil rights laws. And at the same time, one of
the things that has happened is that with EPA, the
(51:46):
whole Environmental Justice the Office of Environmental Justice has been dismantled, right,
so the staff that would need to be there to
actually do the work, that staff has been removed. So yes,
I would you know, the law still exists, someone should
still be enforcing them. Doj should still enforce civil rights laws?
(52:12):
What the situation that we are in right now is
that a administrative complaint can be filed to actually enforce
our civil rights law. And what happened in Louisiana is
that there there was a challenge to the legality of
the regulations themselves when a civil rights complaint was filed
(52:36):
and the result of that litigation has meant that in
the state of Louisiana those regulations cannot be enforced. So
the next level up would be, you know, there could
be a decision by the Supreme Court that would be
even more you know, it would have a wider application
(52:56):
than the state of than the application to the state
of Louisiana. The fact is is that though the law
is still on the books, they you know, there's only
been one agency, the Department of Energy, has moved to
repeal these regulations by a process that we have alleged
(53:20):
is an unlawful process.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
Yeah, they can't, though well can or they're arguing that
they can.
Speaker 4 (53:27):
Right. This is part of the work of defense and
maintaining what we have on the books, of recognizing when
the next agency attempts to repeal the regulations because they
do still exist. It is only in Louisiana where these
regulations cannot be enforced. But it's something that that's just
(53:47):
one of the arenas that we are working in to
do all that we can to make sure that existing
laws are able to be enforced in the future.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Oh my goodness, Okay, I didn't realize that. So I'm
glad you shared that with me and our listeners, because
I just always assume that once you get something into law,
you're good and it's just a matter of ensuring that
(54:21):
there's a mechanism to enforce it, which was the bigger concern,
right that the Environmental Justice Office is dismantled. You're laying
off staff at the EPA, You're laying off staff at
the CDC, You're laying off staff at all these agencies
so that you undermine their ability to enforce the laws
that are within their sphere of influence. But then now
(54:44):
you're saying that the President can just tell the Department
of Justice, Hey, we know the law is there, we
know they're complaining about people breaking the law. Just ignore
that and do something else instead and not enforce what
is currently required by law to be done in those
(55:07):
situations of injustice. That's very alarming and I wasn't prepared
for that when we started talking.
Speaker 4 (55:15):
Well, what I can say is that you know, states still,
you know, federal aid recipients still have an obligation to
actually not discriminate in the use of federal funding. So
I think that is a that's a bright light that
those federal aid recipients that are of the mind that
they should actually comply with the existing statute and the
regulations that they can still do that. Like, so while
(55:39):
there is a threat to the regulations, there's still a
requirement for the federal laid recipient to actually not discriminate,
like they they have a directive on the front end
to do what all they that they can to not
make decisions that have a discriminatory impact. And I mean,
(56:00):
I think on a note that is more proactive, less defensive.
I mean, the fact is is that plaintiffs can still
file lawsuits under our environmental laws to actually improve environmental
conditions where they are. So if we step aside from
the civil rights laws, which I do think are incredibly
(56:22):
important to achieving environmental justice, equally as important are the
Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, you know, ricrum
super fun like. We still have federal environmental laws that
have to be complied with, and we still have state
laws that have to be complied with. And then there
are some venues that are going to be venues that
(56:45):
are better for plaintiffs than others. And that's where I
think as an organization, we are looking at where are
what are the venues that are going to be most
helpful for doing or to protect communities and to prevent
additional harm. And communities still can comment in public processes
(57:07):
about you know, projects that they know are maybe bad
for them. They can continue to do their own monitoring
of air quality, They can still make complaints when there
are you know, when there's too much dust, when they
see something wrong with the creek in their community, they
can still complain to state regulators. State regulators still have
(57:28):
they still have responsibility, environmental protection responsibilities, and communities can
still organize. So there are a lot of threats that
are out there, but there's still so much action that
people can take to protect themselves to prevent additional harm.
Speaker 2 (57:44):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
Wow, Well, I'm glad you're doing that work, and I'm
glad that you have a team behind you that's pushing
for all this to be done, because, I mean, you're
fighting for things I didn't even realize we're problems and issues,
and so I'm definitely excited about that.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
We hit an hour. I don't know how much time
you have left to talk.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
I do want to spend some time just understanding how
we can support the work that you're doing, How we
can be a part of all that you have going on,
how we can engage listeners people like me who are
just learning this for the first time. How can we
get involved with what you're doing.
Speaker 4 (58:23):
So definitely please check out Plantations to Pollution, Black Communities,
Legacy Pollution, The Path for or please go to the website.
Please support environmental justice organizations there, you know, like whether
that's with volunteer time, whether it's financial support. I will
say that environmental justice organizations have always been under resource
(58:44):
and are under even more pressure now because of the
rollback and federal funding that was meant to provide support
to help achieve these outcomes. Definitely getting engaged on these issues,
to protect our to protect our bedrock, environmental and civil
rights laws. So that is engaging with decision makers, whether
(59:06):
that's members of Congress or on the state level where
there are opportunities to Sometimes there's some opportunities to support
environmental justice UH legislation, environmental justice executive action in North
Carolina and Virginia, those opportunities are available. Making sure to
engage in local zoning decisions, being able to connect again
(59:29):
the prior harm to current present day and justices, to
understand how redlining of black communities resulted in disinvestment and
now you know there's blight in these communities. Understanding those
connections and then taking action in you know, in your
own community, supporting groups that are doing environmental justice work.
(59:52):
That I think those are ways that you can get involved.
And you know, we always appreciate people supporting the Southern
Environmental Law Center. We provide our services at no cost,
and that's from our representation to consultants, to experts. We're
providing that service free of charge to community organize communities,
(01:00:18):
to other nonprofits. So that's who we are supporting. So
this to support SELC to do that work, it is
in turn supporting those community groups. So support the community
groups directly and if you so choose, support SEOC as
we do this work to achieve environmental justice.
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Oh wonderful, wonderful.
Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
If so for the communit leaders listening, if they see
a need and they want to engage your services, what's
the best way to do that? Is there a particular
form they fill out? Is there a place they go
on the website to ask for some help?
Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Like?
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
How does that work?
Speaker 4 (01:00:55):
Right?
Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:00:55):
Like people get in touch with like people called call us.
Like people can just call the or organization and say
here's what the issue is, and that call gets routed
to the subject matter expert at the organization to determine
whether or not the issue area is within our.
Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
Is within our expertise? Is it something that we can
take on? So people can reach out yet directly to
a CLC through our website or through calling one of
our offices, one of our nine offices.
Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
I know, all across the South. And so before you go,
don't leave yet.
Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
I always give our guests a couple of minutes at
the end to just share with us whatever you want
us to know. However you're feeling about the way things
are going, what you think is most important for us
to leave with at this conversation. What is that thing
that when I turn off this recording, when I end
(01:01:57):
this podcast, you want me to remember from our conversation today.
Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
One thing I want everyone to remember is that you know,
we still have very powerful tools to help us get
to the ends that we want to get to, to
protect communities, to protect public health. You know, we can
still file citizen suits, We can still comment in public processes.
We can still ask for public information, We can file
(01:02:24):
freedom of information at request, we can file public records requests.
Because sunshine is the best disinfectant, we want to shine
a light on what is happening, and we want to
be aware.
Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
So we can still do that.
Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
There are lots of data and mapping tools that are
still available for people to find out like what is
happening in their community. What are you know, are there
underground storage tanks, are there urban heat islands? What are
the issues that are in community? There are still there
are still mapping tools that are available for that. We
(01:02:58):
still have environmental justice in some of our states that
we want to rely on. I want people to also
know that there is strength in numbers, that organizing is
always going to be an incredibly effective tool to get
good outcomes. I do want people to think about history
(01:03:19):
as context for the present and be inspired to act
in the ways that you think are going to be
most effective to get some progress in environmental protection and
public health.
Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
But you know, more of more voices, is more.
Speaker 4 (01:03:34):
Attention, and you know, think about sharing resources, whether that's money,
where that that's expertise, whether that's experienced.
Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
And engage with media.
Speaker 4 (01:03:45):
Engage with media, learn about what these issues are, you know,
stay connected through through news outlets, UH and make sure
that you're speaking up on the issues that matter to
you in coalition with others. So those are some things
that I would like to leave the audience with. And
(01:04:06):
you know, this is where we're in a time that
I think is temporary. Will there'll be a change in tide.
So while you know we may be playing defense right now,
there is you know, there's.
Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
Still something to fight for.
Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
So I think to stay encouraged while we get to
you know, another day that is brighter.
Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Oh that's perfect, That's perfect.
Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
And so with that, Seandra, I want to thank you
again for joining us on the podcast. Thank you for
your expertise, for your advocacy, and for your hard work.
I know it's hard work doing what you do day
in and day out, fighting the good fight, my mom says,
doing the Lord's work, and so I appreciate you and
(01:04:52):
thank you so much for coming onto the podcast today.
Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
Thank you so much for spending so much time with me,
your patience, and you're a good question. I really enjoyed
the time together.
Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
No, it was my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
And so with that, I want to thank you all
for listening to another episode of the Environmental Justice Lab podcast,
where we are for the people and the planet.
Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
We'll see you next time.
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