July 8, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode, Dr. Lesley Joseph sits down with author, conflict practitioner, and activist Somia Sadiq to discuss her new novel, Gajarah, a story that challenges how we understand land, justice, grief, and the tangled threads of human resilience. Born in Pakistan, raised in Canada, and shaped by a life between cultures and continents, Somia brings her lived experience, and her deep work in justice and peacebuilding, to the page. Through her unforgettable protagonist, Emahn, she explores trauma, displacement, and the often-unspoken truth that healing isn’t linear, and justice doesn’t always come with closure.
Dr. Joseph and Somia explore questions like:
🌿 What if land was a character in your story?
💔 Why do some conflicts never really end, even when we say they’re resolved?
🔥 What does environmental justice look like when we move beyond human-centered narratives?
If you’ve ever felt stuck between cultures, longed for a language to express the “in-between,” or wondered how storytelling can bring us closer to justice—this episode will speak to you.
🎧 Tune in now to hear how Somia's new book, Gajarah, invites us to feel more deeply, think more critically, and honor the land and people that shape our stories.
Buy the book and follow Somia Sadiq on Social Media:
https://www.somiasadiq.com/
https://www.somiasadiq.com/gajarah
https://www.instagram.com/somiasadiq/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/somiasadiq/
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
Dr. Joseph and Somia explore questions like:
🌿 What if land was a character in your story?
💔 Why do some conflicts never really end, even when we say they’re resolved?
🔥 What does environmental justice look like when we move beyond human-centered narratives?
If you’ve ever felt stuck between cultures, longed for a language to express the “in-between,” or wondered how storytelling can bring us closer to justice—this episode will speak to you.
🎧 Tune in now to hear how Somia's new book, Gajarah, invites us to feel more deeply, think more critically, and honor the land and people that shape our stories.
Buy the book and follow Somia Sadiq on Social Media:
https://www.somiasadiq.com/
https://www.somiasadiq.com/gajarah
https://www.instagram.com/somiasadiq/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/somiasadiq/
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the Environment with Justice Lab podcast. I am
your host, doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for
being with us today and I am so excited today.
This is a very special moment for me. I have
on the episode today an author, an activist, and just
an amazing all around woman who is going to get
(00:43):
to share with us so many things about her life experiences,
and we're going to talk about the environment, we'll talk
about justice conflict, and she has a book coming out
that I want all of you to go get and so,
without further ado, I want to welcome all of you
and introduce you to Samiya Sadek Samya. How are you.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I am doing well, Leslie, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I'm doing great. Thank you so much for being on
the podcast. I don't get too many authors coming on
most of the time, where activists, we're students. We're just
trying to make a difference in our own little ways.
But you have a book coming out which I want
to really get into and talk about because it's going
to be an amazing impactful book. But before we get
(01:28):
into the book, can you tell us a little bit
about yourself, where you're from, your upbringing, your passions, the
things that make you who you are.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Thank you, Leslie, thanks for having me here today. It's great.
I'm really excited. So a little bit about myself. Name
is Sonya. I was born in Abudhabi, United There memorates.
My homeland is Laha, Pakistan. That's where That's where I'm from.
I'm actually headed there next week and really really excited.
(02:06):
I came to count it as a newcomer in two thousand,
right after nine to eleven, so a very very different
time for Muslims and especially for people of color, for Muslims.
As a woman, so you know, barrier, barrier, barrier, and
learn the hard way what it means to navigate a
place that pushes you away, and what it means to
(02:32):
try to belong when you're too young and you don't
really have all the different pieces of your identity quite
to figure it out yet. So in a lot of ways,
those are different elements that have taught me brought me
to who I am today.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Wow. Wow. And so where do you live now? Are
you in? You're not in Pakistan now, not right now.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I will be next week, but I live in when I've.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Pig Canada in Canada, so okay, So roots are down
in Canada. What's happened like in Canada? You know? In
America's interesting. We always have this, I think love hit
relationship with Canada, where we like to talk about Canada
in ways that arnt is encouraging. But then a lot
(03:21):
of us secretly want to want to live there, right.
We want to have that healthcare, We want to have
those mountains and those seasons and those sporting events, And
so I wonder what your experience has been like in Canada.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, I love.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Hearing that, Leslie, because I just assume that all Americans
talk very fondly about Canada because we are really awesome,
because why not, you know, And there's with every place,
and I think this is the reality of the world
that we live in. And something that I hold very
(03:57):
dear to me is every place has it's bruises and
it's marks, it's legacy, it's history, just.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Like the US does, just like Canada does. So it's
very much embracing all the different parts of who we are,
what our legacy has been, what our history has been,
and then finding ways to work through that and navigate
that together. And as far as our American friends go,
I always say to all my American friends like, come
(04:27):
on up, like we'd love to host. Yeah, you know,
and if you need and if you need a few
medical appointments while you're here, we can figure that's right.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Oh man. No, I spent a little bit of time
in Calgary. I went to a conference there and we
just my wife and I loved it. I mean, we
loved the people that were so kind, hospitable. The weather
was amazing. I'm assuming it gets cold and snows, which
would kind of, you know, deter us a little bit
from living their year round. But we really enjoyed our
(04:58):
time in Calgary. And so, you know, and then we
could talk on on about Canada and about the America.
We're not here for that. We are here because you
wrote this book. And I want to really talk about
this book and some of the themes and some of
the elements of this way that we can really learn
from and grow from. So the book is called You
Helped Me. Before we started, Guy j Era perfect. Oh,
(05:22):
I said it right, This is a novel. This is
a novel, So it's a fiction work. And I guess
before we talk about it, why fiction?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Hmm, great question. So fiction. I was having this conversation
recently with a very dear friend who works in this
space of educating leaders about peace and conflict and what
does it mean to build conflict capacity? And you know,
as all amazing conversations in little cafes go, we went
(05:54):
down this rabbit hole of fiction versus nonfiction. The one
thing I've always really deeply valued about fiction is fiction
gives you that creative space to engage with someone's story
without without letting it just be their story. So, for example,
(06:19):
if you shared something about your life that happened to
you as a person, I may find moments, and if
I'm a good story listener, I may find moments where
parts of your story weave with parts of mine that
may happen. However, if you shared with me a story
(06:42):
and you didn't tell me whose story it was, I
almost have more permission now to see myself in that story.
So fiction can be a really powerful way for us
to engage with someone's story in a manner that allows
us hold space for us to have deeper introspection and reflection.
(07:03):
That's why I decided to write it, to write fiction
to allow for people to have that space to see
themselves in some of some parts.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Of the story interesting. And so then with fiction, then
I don't have to just look at it as someone's story.
I can kind of pick myself up and see where
I fit in that story and really almost become a
part of it as I read through it and understand
(07:34):
what's happening, and look at my life in relation to
that story that you're telling.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
In the book exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
And I've always maintained that there's this beautiful relationship between
a storyteller and a story listener, And we often say
who are the best storytellers and what about their story
draws you in?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And we forget the piece about the story listener and
a storyteller and a story listener or have this almost
a sacred relationship where the energy that a story listener
has is very much folding space and permission for a
storyteller to tell the story. So when we work with fiction,
(08:16):
when we work with allegories and metaphors, we together create
that permission for all of us to relate to a.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Story that's interesting. So, then when you wrote this book,
did you have a particular story listener in mind? A
particular I don't know if it's a person or a
group or a community that you were. You know, I
know when I tell this story that this group, these
(08:45):
people are going to resonate in ways that I want
to engage directly. Did you have that thought or did
you feel like you try to make it as universal
and as global as you possibly can to try to
bring in as many people as possible into the story.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Great question, Leslie. I'll say a couple of things that
come up for me. One is when I had a
conversation with my marketing coach about you know, when you're
writing a book, you learn a lot about how to
market it, how the publishing process and so on, And
they asked me about my target audience and my first
response was, Oh, it's for everybody. And you know, if
(09:27):
you if you know anything about marketing, they'll really keep
pushing you to say, oh uh, like, tell me who
it's for. When I was writing the book, a huge
part of the journey was about finding language for the middle,
finding language for the complex, and that was that is
(09:53):
who this book is for. It's for people who are
looking for that language of the in between. How do
you describe the very complex relationship with forgiveness, How do
you describe grief? How do you describe that sort of
gutting loss of that sense of belonging, and how do
(10:13):
you describe that climbing up the ladder to try and
find that sense of belonging. So in a lot of ways,
it was for people who were trying to grapple with
those issues. So that could be someone who's eighteen, that
could be someone who's eighty one, someone who's been taken
(10:35):
away from home, someone who lives oceans away from the
land that they consider to be their homeland. So really
it boils down to for me, it's for people who
are searching for searching for words, searching for expressions to
describe how we're feeling.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Wow. Wow, And so it almost goes deep into the
heart of you know, the human experience and the human
desire to rise and to be influenced. You want to
make a difference and to live with meaning and purpose. No,
I love it, and that transcends a lot of things
(11:19):
that we might typically identify as people that we will
connect with, whether it's on a religious sense, ethnically, you know, nationally,
we can go beyond that with the way you've done
this book. So let's talk about the book. Let's talk
about it. So this book from what I understand first
of all listeners, it comes out in September this year,
so you got to pre order it, make sure it
(11:41):
gets there so you can read this amazing book. We
follow Aman and I say that right Aman Aman? So
in the description she's this big haired, mischievous, larger than life,
just big character and we're following her in this story
and we got I think, I don't know if we
(12:04):
have multiple realities. We have two different, almost different lives
that she's living. She's I think she's from Pakistan, but
she moves to Canada, or she's in between the two.
We're following her life, her story, and she has major
traumatic events, she has things that happens in her life,
(12:24):
in her family, and you're and we get to kind
of walk alongside her as she processes and tries to
manage this big world that she's in with her personality
and with her passionate visions. And so tell us, tell
us more about this main character in this book.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Mm hmm, thank you. I love I love that description
of Iman. Eman is this character who who carries so
much life and I'm so so packed with life and
all of its complexity and all of its beauty, and
(13:09):
that is one of the themes that the readers will
find throughout the book. The journey that the readers go
on with him on is we don't just get to
experience and hear what she's experiencing in the moment. It's
not a polished narrative. It's a very gutting, raw like
(13:35):
what's going on in her head as she's trying to
make sense of what's happening around her. And there's beauty
in that, and there's complexity in that, and there's nothing
linear about it. And as we go through the journey
of her life, as it happens with all of us
(13:56):
when there has been trauma, we try to make sense
of it. And that's what healing is. It's about trying
to make some sense of why something happened and what
it meant and what the impact of it was. So
as we journey with Iman, we see her revisiting some
of these things, and every time she goes back to them,
there's a new lesson that pops up from that experience,
(14:20):
and so it's a very nonlinear journey through her life
as she experiences new things and as she tries to
make sense of the world around her, and it's rich
in allegory, in metaphors, and very much rich in her
cultural wisdom and understanding and belonging.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Wow. Wow. There's a statement in the description of the
book that talks about Eman and what it says is
that she's resilient, she's driven, she's unbreakable almost. And when
I read that, I said, you know, a lot of
(15:01):
us feel that we want to have those characteristics, want
to believe that we can really overcome and move past
and through all the challenges that we see. But I
think a lot of times we do have that almost
kind of posture where we don't quite get all the
(15:24):
way through. How does that almost play out? If you
can tell us in a Mond's story and in the
ways in which she all not not quite unbreakable but almost.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, I love I love that question. The truth of
the human experience, and there's many truths. Humans are so
complex and yet so simple and so viewable. The truth
of the human experiences. We want to know that we
can deal with it all because that validates us, that
(16:04):
validates our resilience. And sometimes you fake it till you
make it, you know, you say out loud that ooh,
I am tough, and then you go in the shower
and have a little cry and you feel better.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Right, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And over time we're now getting better with accepting that
resilience does not mean that you are tough all the time.
Resilience means you have the capacity to unpack, the capacity
to understand, and the capacity to accept parts of you
(16:42):
that you may not like in the moment. It's to
know that the bruises that you have are very much
a part of who you are. That is resilience. That
is what holds us as we navigate life. And that
is very much the story of Amand as she too
wants to be tough and she wants to prove to
(17:06):
the world that nothing can break her that's right, And
we get to experience what's going on in her mind.
It is the conversation that she's having with herself nothing
can destroy me, or is it deeper than that, where
she's also fearful of how this world is going to
(17:30):
destroy her. So it's both of those things, and I
think that's what the readers will experience as they follow
her journey.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Oh, I love it. I love it, And you're absolutely right.
I mean, I know for a fact, at least here
in America, we are taught every day, look you see
what you want, pretend like you already have it, at
like you're already there, put on the the close, the meaner,
(18:03):
the personality that would give the impression that you're there.
And a lot of times we do remove the complexities
of life, the complexities of what it might take to
get to a certain place and what it might take
to become a certain thing that you've been wanting to
become for so long. And I love the fact that
your story will kind of allow us to see it
(18:25):
in real time and understand it, not just in the
physical ways that she's trying to move through her life,
but the emotional and the psychological, you know, impact that
that pursuit can have. And so I'm looking forward to
the book. I can't wait to read it. Another question
(18:46):
for you, I know, just because I, you know, spend
cyberstalking you for the last couple of weeks, that you
do a lot of work around conflict, a lot of
work around resolving issues between different parties and different entities,
and I know there's gonna be some of that in
(19:07):
this book, because I can't imagine you leaving that out.
But when you talk about a conflict and resolution, it's
interesting the way you frame it. You don't say things
like let's fix it, let's solve it, let's address it
and be done with it. You talk about it as
something when it comes to conflict, at least something to witness,
(19:31):
right that you live with that you kind of I
don't know if you will say embrace. I don't want
to put words in your mouth, but it doesn't feel
like it's a situation where the conflict is here, it's resolved,
and it's done and we move on. It seems like
there's more to it. So can you help me understand
that better? And how does that connected with the book
(19:54):
that you've written amand specifically, and perhaps even with the
types of conflicts that you've kind of dealt with over
your work. What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So what this book does, what Gujara does, is it
shares a very uncomfortable truth about conflict, a truth that
we like to pretend does not exist. You know, when
(20:27):
if we take a moment and think about a cousin
who's wronged us really badly and we're hissed, we're really
upset with that cousin, because when we were twelve years old,
they did something something we didn't like. You go through
(20:48):
life every time that cousin comes up in conversation, your
body reacts to it. You get angry, you walk out
of the room. You don't want to talk about that cousin.
Every time Mama says, cousin's coming over, you look for
(21:10):
excuses to get out of it. You look for excuses
to go do something else. That conflict never ended. Even
if in that moment when you were twelve years old,
the cousin said sorry, or your parents made you know,
one of you apologize on the other accept the apology.
The conflict didn't end. It got resolved. You said sorry,
(21:31):
the other person accepted it. You moved on, But it
stayed with you through life. And that's just a cousin's example.
Every conflict has a way of somehow lingering in our bodies.
It stays with us in some way or the other.
(21:51):
And unless we have the capacity, the ability, the time,
the space to go back to it, open it go
uh huh Okay, this is how I'm feeling about it now.
It never really goes away. That's the uncomfortable truth. The
(22:11):
FUDGETA really brings to life. So when we think about
conflict in our everyday lives, when I've sat in spaces
where negotiating peace agreements or having people see the humanity
in each other, they're unpacking not just the conflict itself,
(22:33):
They're unpacking thousands of years of history between them. They're
thinking of the many generations ahead. For me, conflict boils
down to accepting that it stays with us, accepting that
it is complicated, and also accepting that in the future
(22:58):
we want to have the capacity to come together and
talk about it. And unless we start seeing conflict that way,
we can't reframe it. And ultimately this boils down to
the ability to reframe conflicts so we can make more sense.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Of Wow, that's interesting, that is very interesting. I would
have been told that something was wrong with me if
after we've quote unquote resolved the conflict, that I still
had those reactions and those internal struggles when I would
(23:36):
encounter someone who I had a previous conflict with. And
so what you're saying is I'm not deficient for having
those feelings and those impulses, but I have to be
able to understand them better work alongside them. And I
(23:57):
guess acknowledge them in ways that are healthier than just
trying to resist them and trying to avoid having them.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, like, I don't know the last time someone said
to you, let's just get over it.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Well, that's what they always say. And why are you
still so upset? They apologized, they came to you. I
thought we dealt with this already. Why don't you go
over to that person's house. Why can't they come over?
I don't want to see them anymore. And so when
we think about this in the relation to your book,
so Aman obviously has a deep kind of internal we
(24:37):
could call them conflicts of their own that she's dealing
with that she moves through the book. And in the
book you also kind of bridge that with external conflicts
things happening around her, political conflicts, I imagine economic and
social ones that are also kind of shaping the way
that she's seeing herself and seeing the world around. And
(25:00):
so how how specifically did your book kind of bring
those together? And what does that tell us, especially these
days when we see so much in the news about
a lot of political conflicts, a lot of war, a
lot of really deep seated generational conflict, that's really persistent
(25:26):
throughout history even to today.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
So one of the things, one of the other things
about about conflict, our inner conflicts and our own experiences
and our own identity and the world outside us, is
we see most people seem to go through life completely
disconnecting the two MM. Most people will go through life
(25:57):
and think about They'll watch the news and something in
the news will aggravate them, right, something won't. A lot
of things won't, Like not everybody everyone has a cause.
Some people have more causes than one. But you're not
passionate about every injustice in the world. Right, that's right,
(26:23):
And this is a little tricky one for most activists
to accept. So I hope that they can hear this
with the care that I'm offering it MM, because we
get angry when others are not as passionate about the
cause that's important to us.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
That's right, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
But here's the thing. There's a million causes out there.
There's so many injustices out there. There's injustices towards people,
towards women, towards non binary folks, towards children, towards mother earth,
towards rivers, towards waters, towards dawn pets are we passionate
(27:03):
about every injustice. Really, some injustices when we see them
all we rage from within. Other justices, we rage because
our friends raging about them. So of course you've got
to be a good friend. You've got to be good Ala,
I'm going to rage for you beside you. And then
there's some where we say we're raging, but we're not
(27:26):
really raging about those. And then there's others that don't
impact us. The reality there is there's something about us
that evokes that reaction. There's some injustice, something in our history,
(27:46):
either in our immediate experiences or experiences of our ancestors,
that evokes that reaction. So we can't disconnect the inn herself,
the inner conflicts, from the outer world. And so in
this book, as Iman is journeying through life, those are
(28:10):
the connections that she's drawing as she won't move through life.
And that's how when we work through conflicts together, we
can see that you can't they're not you can just
separate them. We're part of the bigger fabric and the
other way around.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Interesting do you feel like, then, well, how important do
you believe it is for someone who has these deep passions,
these deep impulses to fight certain types of injustices, to
understand their potential inner conflicts and connection to that internally
(28:53):
for them to be effective, or for them to understand
why they are who they are. How critical that because
I would imagine most people would want to ensure that
those are separated. You don't talk about them together, you
don't engage them together. It might make me a better,
more effective activist if I can take myself out and
(29:19):
just focus on the cause. What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think there's a
clear answer there. As most things, my senses, causes need passion,
causes need emotion, and causes also need a lot of
(29:44):
you know, heart mind separation sometimes to be able to
be able to execute what needs to be done. And
I think all of those things can coexist. When when
you have a conversation with an activist and you ask
them what do we need to do? You'll get an
answer and maybe super methodicals like hey, here are the
(30:06):
ten things we need to do. And then if you're
having a deeper conversation and you tell them like, hey,
how did you end up in this space? That's the story.
Something made them think that this was important. They saw
the forest burning and they said, can't I can't let
(30:29):
this happen, like something is hurting out there. Or they
spent a lot of time out in the nature with
their parents or with their grandparents. We can't separate those
two elements. So how important is it, To come back
to your question, how important is it for activists to know?
I think it is really important, and it's really important
(30:51):
because it reminds them because there are times when you're
an activist, there are times when it's just so hopeless
and it's exhausting. At times like that, you need to
be reminded of the why you're there in the first place. Right,
that's your fuel, that's your reminder, and also that's your passion.
(31:14):
And the last thing I will say about that is
when you have moments as an activist, as someone who's
pushing for a certain cause, where you feel really activated
and your emotions get out of control. Happens to everybody,
and it's okay. It is those times that you can
(31:37):
take a step back and go, why did that evoke
such a strong reaction in me? You can't just ignore it,
And the more you ignore it, it becomes bigger and
bigger and bigger. So my message to activists is no,
know the heart of your passion, because if anything, you
(32:00):
can then learn to channel it really effectively. And I'm
sure you are, but hey, you can channel even more effectively,
you know.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely, Like there's so many things in
this book I want to touch on and talk about,
but our time is limited and this is the Environmental
Justice Lab, and so I do want to talk about
the environment. I do want to talk about those elements
in the book that touch on that or even kind
(32:29):
of fill that out. And So what I noticed just
from reading the information about the book and what you've
discussed in it, is that there's a lot of discussion
about land. So in the book there's instances of destruction,
right the forrests, the ecosystems being you know, destroyed, And
in the book it's almost like it's mourned the way
(32:54):
you would mourn a human loss, where you would mourn
someone a loved one. So how how does your book
challenge the idea of centering us as people as humans
in these narratives about justice When you talk about the
force being destroyed in the way that it's worn in
(33:15):
the book, it's not quite the same as how we
might view it just every day when we think about
our ecosystems being you know, desecrated or dismantled. And so,
how does your book challenge the human centeredness of our
discussions about justice?
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Beautiful question sleep So a few thoughts that come up
for me are years ago, many many years ago, when
I was in school, I took this course in environmental justice,
and one of the things that we unpacd as we
(34:00):
looked at the concepts of deep ecology was this notion
of intrinsic value? Does does the environment have intrinsic value?
And you know, we often hear this phrase if a
tree fell in the forest and nobody heard it, did it?
Did it really happened? Kind of thing, right, And I
(34:23):
remember being a part of those conversations and being somewhat
perturbed that we even needed to have that conversation about
intrinsic value, because to me, everything in my world has
always carried intrinsic value, not just the not just the
(34:46):
trees and the grasses, but the brick and you know,
a shoe, and like all these objects, if you will,
that are around me. Have always carried your value. And
so that's sort of one one principle that I've held
(35:08):
personally really important to me. The other thought that comes
up for me is my my grandfather that the Jummy
used to say, Decus and the little little joys, and
you'd say, the day we stop noticing the little things
in life, we've stopped living. And I've applied that principle
(35:29):
to many things in life. You know, when you're when
you're going through dark times, you find local limers in life.
And also to me, if I'm walking down you know,
walking down an urban road or pavement, and you know, however,
now and then you see these little little flowers that
pop up in which I make note of those, and
(35:54):
they mean something to me, and they signal that beautiful
things can grow in places where you may not expect them.
And so does that tiny little plant have value to me?
It does. To me. That tiny little plant is this
symbol of so much. It's teaching me something and it
(36:20):
becomes important to me as a teacher. It's living for itself,
so it's important to its own environment. So to me,
everything carries that value. And then when I apply that
to your question in thinking about you know, when there's loss,
when there's destruction in our environment, when there's loss of
(36:42):
forest in ecosystems. Now you apply that tiny little flower
that grew to an entire forest. Of course it has value.
Of course, it's valuable for what it is and what
it carries. So the loss of that means so much
more than the loss of the tree or a loss
(37:03):
of some land. It's a loss of this fabric of
life that connects me to the forest, that connects me
to this little flower that's taught me a lesson. The
loss of that little flowers a loss of a teacher.
So in a lot of ways, we can think about
the environment as a really important teacher and hold it
(37:27):
sacred in that relationship.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Wow, wow, that's beautiful. You know, obviously I have, you know,
in my life and my history always made distinctions between
what has intrinsic extrinsic value. And I wonder if it's
just a product of me growing up in this kind
(37:50):
of capitalist, kind of economically driven society, at least here
in America, where we feel the need to put value
on things, and the value becomes whatever benefit we believe
(38:11):
that thing provides us. And the more we believe it
provides us. The more valuable that becomes. Right. Even in
your force example, you didn't mention anything about things like
ecosystem services or you know, engineered kind of ecosystem benefits.
(38:34):
Like we talk a lot about how, you know, the
force are important to preserve because they do these things
for us. They clean our air, they mitigate flooding, they
help with providing spaces for us to enjoy nature. And
so when I hear you talk about it the way
you do, I mean, it's just it's just riveting because
(38:58):
I've never thought about it that way. I've never try
to learn from nature, and never try to learn anything
from a flower or rose or a tree, and thinking
about how its presence actually teaches me and helps me
(39:18):
understand things that I wouldn't have known otherwise. And so
to think about it in that way really does change
my whole perspective on why we fight for environmental justice,
why we think about environmental justice, it goes far beyond
just protecting ourselves as humans. It goes into ensuring that
(39:39):
our world continues to speak, continues to teach, continues to
exist in ways that can provide benefits for everybody human,
non human, alike as we are all here existing, trying
to make the most out of our current situations. And
so said, I never thought about it. I never thought
(40:03):
about it.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
And we, you know, to be fair, we don't think
about it because that's how we relate. We relate with
things based on ourselves. And I think the switch or
transformation opportunity there is in taking a step back from
(40:30):
what is this thing giving to me? To what is
this thing? Period? And you know, I love asking. I
love playing this game with my husband where we every
time and I'll see a tree in a neighborhood, like,
how old do you think that is? And you know,
sometimes we'll go into these neighborhoods with old, old trees
(40:51):
and old growth and he'll say something like that about
sixty years or seven years. And then I'll take a
moment and think about everything this tree has seen in
those sixty seventy years. It's seen little kids grow up,
but seeing heartbreak and seeing roads change, seeing so many
(41:14):
seasons and weather and this and that, and then I
find myself having some reverence for that tree. I'm almost seen.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
A lot, right, right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
So, and I think it's just a way, it's just
a way that we can find opportunities to relate in
healthier and healthier ways.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And of course we could
keep talking about it, but we're got to wrap this
thing up. Just wrap this thing up. So just stepping
back a little bit, thinking about your book, this amazing
piece of work that you've are putting out in September,
everybody in September. What would you you say your book
(42:02):
contributes to this broad conversation around environmental justice? Right, this
is what we've been talking about, is what I'm concerned
about as a host on this podcast. How can we
advance environmental justice locally, nationally, globally. What does your book
(42:22):
contribute to those efforts? And particularly as it relates to
things like, you know, indigenous communities, land rights, water rights,
these kind of things that you know, a lot of
us we are aware of, but we don't really spend
too much time on because we're concerned about the people.
What about these other concerns considerations? How does your book
(42:46):
contribute to those broader conversations?
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Thank you for that question, Leslie. There's a there's a
quote that I use. It's one of my it's one
of my favorite quotes by roomy, I love, I love roomy,
and roomy is contributed to our collective thinking. I use
this quote at the beginning of a peace circle i'm hosting,
(43:12):
or a dialogue i'm facilitating, and it goes something like this,
out beyond the ideas of right doing and wrongdoing is
a field. I'll meet you there. And I love that
quote for so many reasons. It really pushes us to
(43:33):
go beyond the right and the wrong and stay in
that middle, if you will. In a lot of ways,
it's easier to pick. You're done, you've picked, you can
move on. Yeah, It's harder to take your time and
stay in that discomfort because when you're in that field,
(43:56):
you're not alone. There's a lot of people in the
middle who are wondering, we're questioning, who are curious, who
are undecided, And there's power in that space because that's
where you learn, because you stop learning if you've already
picked something, because at that point you're just defending your position.
You're defending your choice, which feels counterintuitive because we've been
(44:21):
taught that there's right or wrong, good or bad, good
or evil, But what about all that in between? And
we all have that in between. We just like to
not acknowledge it. Right. So what I'm really hoping that
this book Gajara does for people is it gives them
language to articulate them in between. It gives them language
(44:46):
to express understand for each other. Here all of that
in between, all of that discomfort, the complexity of the
human experience, and also accept that, Ah, there's a lot
of opinions out there. So especially for activists, I hope
(45:10):
that it creates an opportunity for a little bit of
self awareness for where they're coming from, why is that
cause important to them? Because I think that's a beautiful,
empowering space to be in. So it creates an opportunity
for self awareness, and it also encourages staying in that
(45:31):
ruise field and cultivating that field with people alongside people
who you agree with and also those who you may
not agree with. But we're much stronger, we continue to
learn and grow together.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Absolutely, that's well said. That's well said. And on that note,
I'm going to let you go. Thank you so much
for joining us. Her name is Soma Sadik and the
book book is Gadjada. It is out September of this year.
I will be getting a copy. I encourage all of
(46:07):
you listening to get one as well. And Samya, I'm
so thankful, so glad you had the time to spend
with us on the podcast. Thank you so much for
joining us.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Thank you so much for having me. Leslie really really
enjoyed our conversation. I'll encourage folks who are following my
journey follow me on Instagram, on LinkedIn. I often share
a little tidbits. I share a little behind the scenes
on how the writer's journey has gone and what has
inspired it. So I would encourage you to follow along.
(46:40):
And I can't wait for folks to read this book.
It has some tough themes and it may feel uncomfortable
at times, but one thing I can tell you is
that it's been written with a lot of care and
a lot of love, and you see it. Look forward
(47:01):
to sharing that people. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yes, absolutely, we look forward to reading it. I'll make
sure your social media handles are in the description of
this episode. Like she said, follow her, like her content,
continue to connect with her as she shares these stories,
as she writes, as she shows us what it looks
like to write and to put together this masterpiece that
(47:26):
she's provided for us. Samya, thank you so much. I
really really appreciate it and your time, your intelligence, your
deep the way you think about these things really resonates,
and so I know it will the rest of our
listeners as well. And I'm so excited for you and
congratulations on the book.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
Thanks having no problem. This has been an episode of
the Environmental Justice Lab, where we are for the people
and for the planet. I'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Environment with Justice Lab podcast. I am
your host, doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for
being with us today and I am so excited today.
This is a very special moment for me. I have
on the episode today an author, an activist, and just
an amazing all around woman who is going to get
(00:43):
to share with us so many things about her life experiences,
and we're going to talk about the environment, we'll talk
about justice conflict, and she has a book coming out
that I want all of you to go get and so,
without further ado, I want to welcome all of you
and introduce you to Samiya Sadek Samya. How are you.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I am doing well, Leslie, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I'm doing great. Thank you so much for being on
the podcast. I don't get too many authors coming on
most of the time, where activists, we're students. We're just
trying to make a difference in our own little ways.
But you have a book coming out which I want
to really get into and talk about because it's going
to be an amazing impactful book. But before we get
(01:28):
into the book, can you tell us a little bit
about yourself, where you're from, your upbringing, your passions, the
things that make you who you are.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Thank you, Leslie, thanks for having me here today. It's great.
I'm really excited. So a little bit about myself. Name
is Sonya. I was born in Abudhabi, United There memorates.
My homeland is Laha, Pakistan. That's where That's where I'm from.
I'm actually headed there next week and really really excited.
(02:06):
I came to count it as a newcomer in two thousand,
right after nine to eleven, so a very very different
time for Muslims and especially for people of color, for Muslims.
As a woman, so you know, barrier, barrier, barrier, and
learn the hard way what it means to navigate a
place that pushes you away, and what it means to
(02:32):
try to belong when you're too young and you don't
really have all the different pieces of your identity quite
to figure it out yet. So in a lot of ways,
those are different elements that have taught me brought me
to who I am today.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Wow. Wow. And so where do you live now? Are
you in? You're not in Pakistan now, not right now.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I will be next week, but I live in when I've.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Pig Canada in Canada, so okay, So roots are down
in Canada. What's happened like in Canada? You know? In
America's interesting. We always have this, I think love hit
relationship with Canada, where we like to talk about Canada
in ways that arnt is encouraging. But then a lot
(03:21):
of us secretly want to want to live there, right.
We want to have that healthcare, We want to have
those mountains and those seasons and those sporting events, And
so I wonder what your experience has been like in Canada.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, I love.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Hearing that, Leslie, because I just assume that all Americans
talk very fondly about Canada because we are really awesome,
because why not, you know, And there's with every place,
and I think this is the reality of the world
that we live in. And something that I hold very
(03:57):
dear to me is every place has it's bruises and
it's marks, it's legacy, it's history, just.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Like the US does, just like Canada does. So it's
very much embracing all the different parts of who we are,
what our legacy has been, what our history has been,
and then finding ways to work through that and navigate
that together. And as far as our American friends go,
I always say to all my American friends like, come
(04:27):
on up, like we'd love to host. Yeah, you know,
and if you need and if you need a few
medical appointments while you're here, we can figure that's right.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Oh man. No, I spent a little bit of time
in Calgary. I went to a conference there and we
just my wife and I loved it. I mean, we
loved the people that were so kind, hospitable. The weather
was amazing. I'm assuming it gets cold and snows, which
would kind of, you know, deter us a little bit
from living their year round. But we really enjoyed our
(04:58):
time in Calgary. And so, you know, and then we
could talk on on about Canada and about the America.
We're not here for that. We are here because you
wrote this book. And I want to really talk about
this book and some of the themes and some of
the elements of this way that we can really learn
from and grow from. So the book is called You
Helped Me. Before we started, Guy j Era perfect. Oh,
(05:22):
I said it right, This is a novel. This is
a novel, So it's a fiction work. And I guess
before we talk about it, why fiction?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Hmm, great question. So fiction. I was having this conversation
recently with a very dear friend who works in this
space of educating leaders about peace and conflict and what
does it mean to build conflict capacity? And you know,
as all amazing conversations in little cafes go, we went
(05:54):
down this rabbit hole of fiction versus nonfiction. The one
thing I've always really deeply valued about fiction is fiction
gives you that creative space to engage with someone's story
without without letting it just be their story. So, for example,
(06:19):
if you shared something about your life that happened to
you as a person, I may find moments, and if
I'm a good story listener, I may find moments where
parts of your story weave with parts of mine that
may happen. However, if you shared with me a story
(06:42):
and you didn't tell me whose story it was, I
almost have more permission now to see myself in that story.
So fiction can be a really powerful way for us
to engage with someone's story in a manner that allows
us hold space for us to have deeper introspection and reflection.
(07:03):
That's why I decided to write it, to write fiction
to allow for people to have that space to see
themselves in some of some parts.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Of the story interesting. And so then with fiction, then
I don't have to just look at it as someone's story.
I can kind of pick myself up and see where
I fit in that story and really almost become a
part of it as I read through it and understand
(07:34):
what's happening, and look at my life in relation to
that story that you're telling.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
In the book exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
And I've always maintained that there's this beautiful relationship between
a storyteller and a story listener, And we often say
who are the best storytellers and what about their story
draws you in?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And we forget the piece about the story listener and
a storyteller and a story listener or have this almost
a sacred relationship where the energy that a story listener
has is very much folding space and permission for a
storyteller to tell the story. So when we work with fiction,
(08:16):
when we work with allegories and metaphors, we together create
that permission for all of us to relate to a.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Story that's interesting. So, then when you wrote this book,
did you have a particular story listener in mind? A
particular I don't know if it's a person or a
group or a community that you were. You know, I
know when I tell this story that this group, these
(08:45):
people are going to resonate in ways that I want
to engage directly. Did you have that thought or did
you feel like you try to make it as universal
and as global as you possibly can to try to
bring in as many people as possible into the story.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Great question, Leslie. I'll say a couple of things that
come up for me. One is when I had a
conversation with my marketing coach about you know, when you're
writing a book, you learn a lot about how to
market it, how the publishing process and so on, And
they asked me about my target audience and my first
response was, Oh, it's for everybody. And you know, if
(09:27):
you if you know anything about marketing, they'll really keep
pushing you to say, oh uh, like, tell me who
it's for. When I was writing the book, a huge
part of the journey was about finding language for the middle,
finding language for the complex, and that was that is
(09:53):
who this book is for. It's for people who are
looking for that language of the in between. How do
you describe the very complex relationship with forgiveness, How do
you describe grief? How do you describe that sort of
gutting loss of that sense of belonging, and how do
(10:13):
you describe that climbing up the ladder to try and
find that sense of belonging. So in a lot of ways,
it was for people who were trying to grapple with
those issues. So that could be someone who's eighteen, that
could be someone who's eighty one, someone who's been taken
(10:35):
away from home, someone who lives oceans away from the
land that they consider to be their homeland. So really
it boils down to for me, it's for people who
are searching for searching for words, searching for expressions to
describe how we're feeling.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Wow. Wow, And so it almost goes deep into the
heart of you know, the human experience and the human
desire to rise and to be influenced. You want to
make a difference and to live with meaning and purpose. No,
I love it, and that transcends a lot of things
(11:19):
that we might typically identify as people that we will
connect with, whether it's on a religious sense, ethnically, you know, nationally,
we can go beyond that with the way you've done
this book. So let's talk about the book. Let's talk
about it. So this book from what I understand first
of all listeners, it comes out in September this year,
so you got to pre order it, make sure it
(11:41):
gets there so you can read this amazing book. We
follow Aman and I say that right Aman Aman? So
in the description she's this big haired, mischievous, larger than life,
just big character and we're following her in this story
and we got I think, I don't know if we
(12:04):
have multiple realities. We have two different, almost different lives
that she's living. She's I think she's from Pakistan, but
she moves to Canada, or she's in between the two.
We're following her life, her story, and she has major
traumatic events, she has things that happens in her life,
(12:24):
in her family, and you're and we get to kind
of walk alongside her as she processes and tries to
manage this big world that she's in with her personality
and with her passionate visions. And so tell us, tell
us more about this main character in this book.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Mm hmm, thank you. I love I love that description
of Iman. Eman is this character who who carries so
much life and I'm so so packed with life and
all of its complexity and all of its beauty, and
(13:09):
that is one of the themes that the readers will
find throughout the book. The journey that the readers go
on with him on is we don't just get to
experience and hear what she's experiencing in the moment. It's
not a polished narrative. It's a very gutting, raw like
(13:35):
what's going on in her head as she's trying to
make sense of what's happening around her. And there's beauty
in that, and there's complexity in that, and there's nothing
linear about it. And as we go through the journey
of her life, as it happens with all of us
(13:56):
when there has been trauma, we try to make sense
of it. And that's what healing is. It's about trying
to make some sense of why something happened and what
it meant and what the impact of it was. So
as we journey with Iman, we see her revisiting some
of these things, and every time she goes back to them,
there's a new lesson that pops up from that experience,
(14:20):
and so it's a very nonlinear journey through her life
as she experiences new things and as she tries to
make sense of the world around her, and it's rich
in allegory, in metaphors, and very much rich in her
cultural wisdom and understanding and belonging.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Wow. Wow. There's a statement in the description of the
book that talks about Eman and what it says is
that she's resilient, she's driven, she's unbreakable almost. And when
I read that, I said, you know, a lot of
(15:01):
us feel that we want to have those characteristics, want
to believe that we can really overcome and move past
and through all the challenges that we see. But I
think a lot of times we do have that almost
kind of posture where we don't quite get all the
(15:24):
way through. How does that almost play out? If you
can tell us in a Mond's story and in the
ways in which she all not not quite unbreakable but almost.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, I love I love that question. The truth of
the human experience, and there's many truths. Humans are so
complex and yet so simple and so viewable. The truth
of the human experiences. We want to know that we
can deal with it all because that validates us, that
(16:04):
validates our resilience. And sometimes you fake it till you
make it, you know, you say out loud that ooh,
I am tough, and then you go in the shower
and have a little cry and you feel better.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Right, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And over time we're now getting better with accepting that
resilience does not mean that you are tough all the time.
Resilience means you have the capacity to unpack, the capacity
to understand, and the capacity to accept parts of you
(16:42):
that you may not like in the moment. It's to
know that the bruises that you have are very much
a part of who you are. That is resilience. That
is what holds us as we navigate life. And that
is very much the story of Amand as she too
wants to be tough and she wants to prove to
(17:06):
the world that nothing can break her that's right, And
we get to experience what's going on in her mind.
It is the conversation that she's having with herself nothing
can destroy me, or is it deeper than that, where
she's also fearful of how this world is going to
(17:30):
destroy her. So it's both of those things, and I
think that's what the readers will experience as they follow
her journey.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Oh, I love it. I love it, And you're absolutely right.
I mean, I know for a fact, at least here
in America, we are taught every day, look you see
what you want, pretend like you already have it, at
like you're already there, put on the the close, the meaner,
(18:03):
the personality that would give the impression that you're there.
And a lot of times we do remove the complexities
of life, the complexities of what it might take to
get to a certain place and what it might take
to become a certain thing that you've been wanting to
become for so long. And I love the fact that
your story will kind of allow us to see it
(18:25):
in real time and understand it, not just in the
physical ways that she's trying to move through her life,
but the emotional and the psychological, you know, impact that
that pursuit can have. And so I'm looking forward to
the book. I can't wait to read it. Another question
(18:46):
for you, I know, just because I, you know, spend
cyberstalking you for the last couple of weeks, that you
do a lot of work around conflict, a lot of
work around resolving issues between different parties and different entities,
and I know there's gonna be some of that in
(19:07):
this book, because I can't imagine you leaving that out.
But when you talk about a conflict and resolution, it's
interesting the way you frame it. You don't say things
like let's fix it, let's solve it, let's address it
and be done with it. You talk about it as
something when it comes to conflict, at least something to witness,
(19:31):
right that you live with that you kind of I
don't know if you will say embrace. I don't want
to put words in your mouth, but it doesn't feel
like it's a situation where the conflict is here, it's resolved,
and it's done and we move on. It seems like
there's more to it. So can you help me understand
that better? And how does that connected with the book
(19:54):
that you've written amand specifically, and perhaps even with the
types of conflicts that you've kind of dealt with over
your work. What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So what this book does, what Gujara does, is it
shares a very uncomfortable truth about conflict, a truth that
we like to pretend does not exist. You know, when
(20:27):
if we take a moment and think about a cousin
who's wronged us really badly and we're hissed, we're really
upset with that cousin, because when we were twelve years old,
they did something something we didn't like. You go through
(20:48):
life every time that cousin comes up in conversation, your
body reacts to it. You get angry, you walk out
of the room. You don't want to talk about that cousin.
Every time Mama says, cousin's coming over, you look for
(21:10):
excuses to get out of it. You look for excuses
to go do something else. That conflict never ended. Even
if in that moment when you were twelve years old,
the cousin said sorry, or your parents made you know,
one of you apologize on the other accept the apology.
The conflict didn't end. It got resolved. You said sorry,
(21:31):
the other person accepted it. You moved on, But it
stayed with you through life. And that's just a cousin's example.
Every conflict has a way of somehow lingering in our bodies.
It stays with us in some way or the other.
(21:51):
And unless we have the capacity, the ability, the time,
the space to go back to it, open it go
uh huh Okay, this is how I'm feeling about it now.
It never really goes away. That's the uncomfortable truth. The
(22:11):
FUDGETA really brings to life. So when we think about
conflict in our everyday lives, when I've sat in spaces
where negotiating peace agreements or having people see the humanity
in each other, they're unpacking not just the conflict itself,
(22:33):
They're unpacking thousands of years of history between them. They're
thinking of the many generations ahead. For me, conflict boils
down to accepting that it stays with us, accepting that
it is complicated, and also accepting that in the future
(22:58):
we want to have the capacity to come together and
talk about it. And unless we start seeing conflict that way,
we can't reframe it. And ultimately this boils down to
the ability to reframe conflicts so we can make more sense.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Of Wow, that's interesting, that is very interesting. I would
have been told that something was wrong with me if
after we've quote unquote resolved the conflict, that I still
had those reactions and those internal struggles when I would
(23:36):
encounter someone who I had a previous conflict with. And
so what you're saying is I'm not deficient for having
those feelings and those impulses, but I have to be
able to understand them better work alongside them. And I
(23:57):
guess acknowledge them in ways that are healthier than just
trying to resist them and trying to avoid having them.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, like, I don't know the last time someone said
to you, let's just get over it.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Well, that's what they always say. And why are you
still so upset? They apologized, they came to you. I
thought we dealt with this already. Why don't you go
over to that person's house. Why can't they come over?
I don't want to see them anymore. And so when
we think about this in the relation to your book,
so Aman obviously has a deep kind of internal we
(24:37):
could call them conflicts of their own that she's dealing
with that she moves through the book. And in the
book you also kind of bridge that with external conflicts
things happening around her, political conflicts, I imagine economic and
social ones that are also kind of shaping the way
that she's seeing herself and seeing the world around. And
(25:00):
so how how specifically did your book kind of bring
those together? And what does that tell us, especially these
days when we see so much in the news about
a lot of political conflicts, a lot of war, a
lot of really deep seated generational conflict, that's really persistent
(25:26):
throughout history even to today.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
So one of the things, one of the other things
about about conflict, our inner conflicts and our own experiences
and our own identity and the world outside us, is
we see most people seem to go through life completely
disconnecting the two MM. Most people will go through life
(25:57):
and think about They'll watch the news and something in
the news will aggravate them, right, something won't. A lot
of things won't, Like not everybody everyone has a cause.
Some people have more causes than one. But you're not
passionate about every injustice in the world. Right, that's right,
(26:23):
And this is a little tricky one for most activists
to accept. So I hope that they can hear this
with the care that I'm offering it MM, because we
get angry when others are not as passionate about the
cause that's important to us.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
That's right, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
But here's the thing. There's a million causes out there.
There's so many injustices out there. There's injustices towards people,
towards women, towards non binary folks, towards children, towards mother earth,
towards rivers, towards waters, towards dawn pets are we passionate
(27:03):
about every injustice. Really, some injustices when we see them
all we rage from within. Other justices, we rage because
our friends raging about them. So of course you've got
to be a good friend. You've got to be good Ala,
I'm going to rage for you beside you. And then
there's some where we say we're raging, but we're not
(27:26):
really raging about those. And then there's others that don't
impact us. The reality there is there's something about us
that evokes that reaction. There's some injustice, something in our history,
(27:46):
either in our immediate experiences or experiences of our ancestors,
that evokes that reaction. So we can't disconnect the inn herself,
the inner conflicts, from the outer world. And so in
this book, as Iman is journeying through life, those are
(28:10):
the connections that she's drawing as she won't move through life.
And that's how when we work through conflicts together, we
can see that you can't they're not you can just
separate them. We're part of the bigger fabric and the
other way around.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Interesting do you feel like, then, well, how important do
you believe it is for someone who has these deep passions,
these deep impulses to fight certain types of injustices, to
understand their potential inner conflicts and connection to that internally
(28:53):
for them to be effective, or for them to understand
why they are who they are. How critical that because
I would imagine most people would want to ensure that
those are separated. You don't talk about them together, you
don't engage them together. It might make me a better,
more effective activist if I can take myself out and
(29:19):
just focus on the cause. What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think there's a
clear answer there. As most things, my senses, causes need passion,
causes need emotion, and causes also need a lot of
(29:44):
you know, heart mind separation sometimes to be able to
be able to execute what needs to be done. And
I think all of those things can coexist. When when
you have a conversation with an activist and you ask
them what do we need to do? You'll get an
answer and maybe super methodicals like hey, here are the
(30:06):
ten things we need to do. And then if you're
having a deeper conversation and you tell them like, hey,
how did you end up in this space? That's the story.
Something made them think that this was important. They saw
the forest burning and they said, can't I can't let
(30:29):
this happen, like something is hurting out there. Or they
spent a lot of time out in the nature with
their parents or with their grandparents. We can't separate those
two elements. So how important is it, To come back
to your question, how important is it for activists to know?
I think it is really important, and it's really important
(30:51):
because it reminds them because there are times when you're
an activist, there are times when it's just so hopeless
and it's exhausting. At times like that, you need to
be reminded of the why you're there in the first place. Right,
that's your fuel, that's your reminder, and also that's your passion.
(31:14):
And the last thing I will say about that is
when you have moments as an activist, as someone who's
pushing for a certain cause, where you feel really activated
and your emotions get out of control. Happens to everybody,
and it's okay. It is those times that you can
(31:37):
take a step back and go, why did that evoke
such a strong reaction in me? You can't just ignore it,
And the more you ignore it, it becomes bigger and
bigger and bigger. So my message to activists is no,
know the heart of your passion, because if anything, you
(32:00):
can then learn to channel it really effectively. And I'm
sure you are, but hey, you can channel even more effectively,
you know.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely, Like there's so many things in
this book I want to touch on and talk about,
but our time is limited and this is the Environmental
Justice Lab, and so I do want to talk about
the environment. I do want to talk about those elements
in the book that touch on that or even kind
(32:29):
of fill that out. And So what I noticed just
from reading the information about the book and what you've
discussed in it, is that there's a lot of discussion
about land. So in the book there's instances of destruction,
right the forrests, the ecosystems being you know, destroyed, And
in the book it's almost like it's mourned the way
(32:54):
you would mourn a human loss, where you would mourn
someone a loved one. So how how does your book
challenge the idea of centering us as people as humans
in these narratives about justice When you talk about the
force being destroyed in the way that it's worn in
(33:15):
the book, it's not quite the same as how we
might view it just every day when we think about
our ecosystems being you know, desecrated or dismantled. And so,
how does your book challenge the human centeredness of our
discussions about justice?
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Beautiful question sleep So a few thoughts that come up
for me are years ago, many many years ago, when
I was in school, I took this course in environmental justice,
and one of the things that we unpacd as we
(34:00):
looked at the concepts of deep ecology was this notion
of intrinsic value? Does does the environment have intrinsic value?
And you know, we often hear this phrase if a
tree fell in the forest and nobody heard it, did it?
Did it really happened? Kind of thing, right, And I
(34:23):
remember being a part of those conversations and being somewhat
perturbed that we even needed to have that conversation about
intrinsic value, because to me, everything in my world has
always carried intrinsic value, not just the not just the
(34:46):
trees and the grasses, but the brick and you know,
a shoe, and like all these objects, if you will,
that are around me. Have always carried your value. And
so that's sort of one one principle that I've held
(35:08):
personally really important to me. The other thought that comes
up for me is my my grandfather that the Jummy
used to say, Decus and the little little joys, and
you'd say, the day we stop noticing the little things
in life, we've stopped living. And I've applied that principle
(35:29):
to many things in life. You know, when you're when
you're going through dark times, you find local limers in life.
And also to me, if I'm walking down you know,
walking down an urban road or pavement, and you know, however,
now and then you see these little little flowers that
pop up in which I make note of those, and
(35:54):
they mean something to me, and they signal that beautiful
things can grow in places where you may not expect them.
And so does that tiny little plant have value to me?
It does. To me. That tiny little plant is this
symbol of so much. It's teaching me something and it
(36:20):
becomes important to me as a teacher. It's living for itself,
so it's important to its own environment. So to me,
everything carries that value. And then when I apply that
to your question in thinking about you know, when there's loss,
when there's destruction in our environment, when there's loss of
(36:42):
forest in ecosystems. Now you apply that tiny little flower
that grew to an entire forest. Of course it has value.
Of course, it's valuable for what it is and what
it carries. So the loss of that means so much
more than the loss of the tree or a loss
(37:03):
of some land. It's a loss of this fabric of
life that connects me to the forest, that connects me
to this little flower that's taught me a lesson. The
loss of that little flowers a loss of a teacher.
So in a lot of ways, we can think about
the environment as a really important teacher and hold it
(37:27):
sacred in that relationship.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Wow, wow, that's beautiful. You know, obviously I have, you know,
in my life and my history always made distinctions between
what has intrinsic extrinsic value. And I wonder if it's
just a product of me growing up in this kind
(37:50):
of capitalist, kind of economically driven society, at least here
in America, where we feel the need to put value
on things, and the value becomes whatever benefit we believe
(38:11):
that thing provides us. And the more we believe it
provides us. The more valuable that becomes. Right. Even in
your force example, you didn't mention anything about things like
ecosystem services or you know, engineered kind of ecosystem benefits.
(38:34):
Like we talk a lot about how, you know, the
force are important to preserve because they do these things
for us. They clean our air, they mitigate flooding, they
help with providing spaces for us to enjoy nature. And
so when I hear you talk about it the way
you do, I mean, it's just it's just riveting because
(38:58):
I've never thought about it that way. I've never try
to learn from nature, and never try to learn anything
from a flower or rose or a tree, and thinking
about how its presence actually teaches me and helps me
(39:18):
understand things that I wouldn't have known otherwise. And so
to think about it in that way really does change
my whole perspective on why we fight for environmental justice,
why we think about environmental justice, it goes far beyond
just protecting ourselves as humans. It goes into ensuring that
(39:39):
our world continues to speak, continues to teach, continues to
exist in ways that can provide benefits for everybody human,
non human, alike as we are all here existing, trying
to make the most out of our current situations. And
so said, I never thought about it. I never thought
(40:03):
about it.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
And we, you know, to be fair, we don't think
about it because that's how we relate. We relate with
things based on ourselves. And I think the switch or
transformation opportunity there is in taking a step back from
(40:30):
what is this thing giving to me? To what is
this thing? Period? And you know, I love asking. I
love playing this game with my husband where we every
time and I'll see a tree in a neighborhood, like,
how old do you think that is? And you know,
sometimes we'll go into these neighborhoods with old, old trees
(40:51):
and old growth and he'll say something like that about
sixty years or seven years. And then I'll take a
moment and think about everything this tree has seen in
those sixty seventy years. It's seen little kids grow up,
but seeing heartbreak and seeing roads change, seeing so many
(41:14):
seasons and weather and this and that, and then I
find myself having some reverence for that tree. I'm almost seen.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
A lot, right, right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
So, and I think it's just a way, it's just
a way that we can find opportunities to relate in
healthier and healthier ways.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And of course we could
keep talking about it, but we're got to wrap this
thing up. Just wrap this thing up. So just stepping
back a little bit, thinking about your book, this amazing
piece of work that you've are putting out in September,
everybody in September. What would you you say your book
(42:02):
contributes to this broad conversation around environmental justice? Right, this
is what we've been talking about, is what I'm concerned
about as a host on this podcast. How can we
advance environmental justice locally, nationally, globally. What does your book
(42:22):
contribute to those efforts? And particularly as it relates to
things like, you know, indigenous communities, land rights, water rights,
these kind of things that you know, a lot of
us we are aware of, but we don't really spend
too much time on because we're concerned about the people.
What about these other concerns considerations? How does your book
(42:46):
contribute to those broader conversations?
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Thank you for that question, Leslie. There's a there's a
quote that I use. It's one of my it's one
of my favorite quotes by roomy, I love, I love roomy,
and roomy is contributed to our collective thinking. I use
this quote at the beginning of a peace circle i'm hosting,
(43:12):
or a dialogue i'm facilitating, and it goes something like this,
out beyond the ideas of right doing and wrongdoing is
a field. I'll meet you there. And I love that
quote for so many reasons. It really pushes us to
(43:33):
go beyond the right and the wrong and stay in
that middle, if you will. In a lot of ways,
it's easier to pick. You're done, you've picked, you can
move on. Yeah, It's harder to take your time and
stay in that discomfort because when you're in that field,
(43:56):
you're not alone. There's a lot of people in the
middle who are wondering, we're questioning, who are curious, who
are undecided, And there's power in that space because that's
where you learn, because you stop learning if you've already
picked something, because at that point you're just defending your position.
You're defending your choice, which feels counterintuitive because we've been
(44:21):
taught that there's right or wrong, good or bad, good
or evil, But what about all that in between? And
we all have that in between. We just like to
not acknowledge it. Right. So what I'm really hoping that
this book Gajara does for people is it gives them
language to articulate them in between. It gives them language
(44:46):
to express understand for each other. Here all of that
in between, all of that discomfort, the complexity of the
human experience, and also accept that, Ah, there's a lot
of opinions out there. So especially for activists, I hope
(45:10):
that it creates an opportunity for a little bit of
self awareness for where they're coming from, why is that
cause important to them? Because I think that's a beautiful,
empowering space to be in. So it creates an opportunity
for self awareness, and it also encourages staying in that
(45:31):
ruise field and cultivating that field with people alongside people
who you agree with and also those who you may
not agree with. But we're much stronger, we continue to
learn and grow together.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Absolutely, that's well said. That's well said. And on that note,
I'm going to let you go. Thank you so much
for joining us. Her name is Soma Sadik and the
book book is Gadjada. It is out September of this year.
I will be getting a copy. I encourage all of
(46:07):
you listening to get one as well. And Samya, I'm
so thankful, so glad you had the time to spend
with us on the podcast. Thank you so much for
joining us.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Thank you so much for having me. Leslie really really
enjoyed our conversation. I'll encourage folks who are following my
journey follow me on Instagram, on LinkedIn. I often share
a little tidbits. I share a little behind the scenes
on how the writer's journey has gone and what has
inspired it. So I would encourage you to follow along.
(46:40):
And I can't wait for folks to read this book.
It has some tough themes and it may feel uncomfortable
at times, but one thing I can tell you is
that it's been written with a lot of care and
a lot of love, and you see it. Look forward
(47:01):
to sharing that people. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yes, absolutely, we look forward to reading it. I'll make
sure your social media handles are in the description of
this episode. Like she said, follow her, like her content,
continue to connect with her as she shares these stories,
as she writes, as she shows us what it looks
like to write and to put together this masterpiece that
(47:26):
she's provided for us. Samya, thank you so much. I
really really appreciate it and your time, your intelligence, your
deep the way you think about these things really resonates,
and so I know it will the rest of our
listeners as well. And I'm so excited for you and
congratulations on the book.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
Thanks having no problem. This has been an episode of
the Environmental Justice Lab, where we are for the people
and for the planet. I'll see you next time.
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