February 11, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode, we welcome back Savannah Domenech for a deep dive into the rise and fall of Kodak— and the lasting environmental and social impacts on Rochester, New York. Once a corporate giant that defined photography for generations, Kodak was more than just a company — it was the backbone of an entire community. Savannah unpacks Kodak’s golden era, its contributions to Rochester, and how it became synonymous with job security and innovation. But, as the company declined, so did its reputation, with environmental disasters, mass layoffs, and lingering pollution leaving a lasting mark on the city and its people.
Was Kodak a benevolent giant, or just another corporation prioritizing profits over people? How did the Rochester community respond when faced with toxic spills and economic downturns? And what lessons can we learn from Kodak’s environmental justice legacy?
Join us for an eye-opening conversation that connects history, business, and environmental responsibility. If you’re interested in corporate accountability, community resilience, and the real-world impacts of industrial decline, this episode is a must-listen.
Resources:
Pollution By Kodak Brings Sense Of Betrayal - NY Times
The Environmental Ruin of Kodak - Psychology Today
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen!
Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
Was Kodak a benevolent giant, or just another corporation prioritizing profits over people? How did the Rochester community respond when faced with toxic spills and economic downturns? And what lessons can we learn from Kodak’s environmental justice legacy?
Join us for an eye-opening conversation that connects history, business, and environmental responsibility. If you’re interested in corporate accountability, community resilience, and the real-world impacts of industrial decline, this episode is a must-listen.
Resources:
Pollution By Kodak Brings Sense Of Betrayal - NY Times
The Environmental Ruin of Kodak - Psychology Today
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen!
Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for being with us.
Once again, we are here with Savannah. We are talking
about legacy environmental justice, and on this particular episode, we
are diving deep into Kodak. Kodak is the company at
(00:46):
the center of our discussion about legacy environmental justice because
my good friend Savannah has very intimate knowledge. Savannah is
from Rochester and I cannot wait to learn more about
Kodak and its impact on the community. But we got
to start somewhere, so we're going to start with Kodak. Savannah,
(01:06):
thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on this podcast.
So I feel like it used to be that Kodak
was one of those household names that everybody knew about
back in the eighties, have you, But since it's you know,
gone bankrupt in through recent years, Kodak has just faded
into obscurity. But I feel like, first you have to
understand what the heck Kodak made, what the heck it does,
(01:30):
and what the heck well, I guess what it is
now today as well, because even though it is bankrupt,
it's still is out there, and sure people are still
familiar with it in some senses, even if you're like,
you're not, you know, born prior to you know, to
the two thousands.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yep, Nope, you're absolutely right. I remember. I mean, I'm
obviously much older than you are. But Kodak was the thing.
You had a Kodak camera, you took Kodak pictures. Everything
was Kodak. And obviously for people who were much younger
than me, my children, people in college, I guess this generation,
because of all the digital things that have been going
(02:07):
on the way that we do things now, Kodak isn't
really much of a thing at all. I'm not even
sure if people even know what Kodak is and so
or even what they did. So the idea of a
picture on film that you print and you frame and
(02:29):
you post somewhere or not post, you hang up on
the wall. We post things online, but you would hang
up some on the wall. We might have to start
there first. So before we even talk about Kodak as
a company, like, what did they actually do and make
and how important was that in the time that they
made it.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Definitely, so Kodak made film and camera So first got
to understand how film works. So film is essentially as
a piece of plastic. And then on, how about that
plastic is a jelly teen emotion and the emotion contains
sober highlight crystals, those silver halide crystals or help to
make your photograp So you go the little canister a
(03:09):
film into your camera, into your you know, your your
film camera. You click the button it exposed. This camera
short to open for the brief ist second, just let
enough light in so you can pret a image onto
that film. Now, if you look at that film by
just taking it out, you'd be like, there's nothing here
because it's invisible until we know develop the film's called
(03:31):
like the lighted image. Until you develop it. You gotta
develop it in a dark room, got a bunch of
special chemicals, do some stuff, gotta get the sober out
of the film. And then after all the developing has happened,
you get your image. You as to get the negative
as well. So that's kind of how film works in
a brief nutshell. But if you want to learn more
(03:52):
about film sho, I'm sure there's some other film podcasts
you can listen to it or something. But the OS
Codec also made cameras to go with the film. So
for example, they were known for like a little like
like ten dollars or so you get you on your camera,
it come to the little film. You take a bunch
of pictures click click, clickick click, and then once you're done,
you take the film roll out of it and then
you would send it back to Rochester, New York, where
(04:13):
they would develop your images for you and then they
would send them back to you. So it's kind of
way like a disposable little camera. And they were really
really popular because one it's cheap, and plus you get
a bunch of you get a bunch of cameras out
of it. Because the Kodec's model was like you push
the button. So if you, being the consumer, pushed the
butt in, get your photo and then we do the rest.
So we know, practiced your image for you because you
(04:35):
can't really develop that image on your own and actuel
like you having on your Doking studio, you on the chemicals.
You know what you're doing. It's a very it's just
it's a trade essential.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, And I remember growing up vacationing was you always
had to buy the disposable camera before you went on vacation,
and you would take the camera and it would have
a number at the top, and depending on how much
money you're willing to spend, that number was bigger. And
that number was the number of pictures you could actually
(05:05):
take with that camera when you go on vacation. And
so what we would do is you would take the
camera with you, you take a picture, you look through
a little hole, take the picture, crank it a little bit,
it clicks, the number goes down. You keep clicking, turning, clicking,
turning until you run out of pictures. Then you would
take that disposable camera to the local pharmacy and they
(05:28):
would take it from you, and then about I think
it was like three to four days, they would send
you a packet of those pictures that you took on vacation.
And it was the thing to do. And so everybody
had their disposable camera, everybody had their ways of doing pictures.
That was cheap, it was quick, and it was no hassle.
Because I can't imagine having to develop actual film anywhere.
(05:52):
I would never do that. I wouldn't spend the money
to try to create a place to do that. So
Kodak when it came when it had its disposable cameras,
it's processing equipment, all of its infrastructure. It became the
go to company for all things picture related. And so
(06:14):
that's how they were able to get such a strong
foothold just in the marketplace, because that service was invaluable
to families, to models, to anybody else who want to
take a picture. It was really really cool, and so
I appreciate the background. I actually didn't know how pictures
were actually created with film. I just knew that when
(06:34):
you took the thing back, they send you pictures in
the mail and hopefully they came out well. And so
it's good to get that history on film. But let's
transition to history about the company itself, because now we
have this juggernaut company in Rochester, New York. Can you
tell us how that all happened? How did they even
(06:55):
find themselves in upstate New York.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Definitely all started back way in eighteen eighty nine, which is,
like yiic really long ago. So he got this man.
His name is George Eastman. He is the founder of Kodaks. So,
like I mentioned, he founded the company in eighteen eighty nine.
It was the it was the Eastman Company, so not
Kodiak yet. It became the Eastman Kodec Company three years
(07:21):
later in eighteen ninety two, and everything started off really
really good. People loved loved the founder of Kodak, and
they also loved the company themselves. Part of the reason
they loved Kodaks so much is because Kodak cared for
its workers from anything that we can tell, and also
cared for the community. So, for example, with the workers,
(07:44):
they got like wage dividends at the end of the year. Now,
some of you guys may get wage dividends yourself if
your company's doing well, but back in the you know,
late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundredes, it just was not
a thing. Furthermore, they also got like ument annuities, life insurance,
disability benefit plans, all things which were very rare for
(08:06):
an employer to be giving their employees back in the day. Furthermore,
I mean, George Eastman gave away like one third of
his total codings to his employees. So he was very
popular among his employees and also the community. He don't
need it to the struggling, you know, little university. It
was then the Mechanics Institute of Rochester. Now today it's
(08:28):
the Rochester Institute Technology. You know, it's all one Carnegie
Classic classification research level two institution with like thirteen thousand students,
lots of computer science majors, lacks of you know, engineering
students that are doing really well. He also helped it
find like a bunch of dento clinics, which I mean,
(08:48):
I like, no one I'm gonna let you go onto
the dentist. But do you know, you got your good teeth,
you look good, You're probably gonna have a better future
ahead of you because just because you know what bias
does how people look. And if you got you know,
when I shinely rolled up, pearly white teeth, you're more
likely than you know, get further in life. In addition,
the Man also a styblished like the Eastman School of Music.
(09:10):
So for example, I had a young lady in my
high school. She wanted to be an operation. She applied
right to the Eastman School of Music, to the Juilliard
School in New York City, to the Berkeley School of Music.
All of these are really big names. Grant you if
you're not really into like music personally, I'm not super
into like classical music. Training. But like if you all,
(09:31):
you probably recognize all of these names. These schools all
have kind of similar programs to each other. Under all
along like the top list for top music schools in
the US, and today the Eastern School of Music is
still a really, really tough school. And he really helped,
you know, want cement Kodak into this community because you know,
he's funding the institution, he's helping kids look great with
(09:54):
smiley teas, he's the workers love him, and then he
just continues building the company until the point that we
get to, like it's Kodak's height. They owned about ninety
percent of the American film market, which is huge. Ninety
percent is massive. Today it's like infintesimal because of their bankruptcy,
(10:14):
but ninety percent is just huge. And then we also
see this community town start really revolving around Kodak. So
we get the foundation of Kodek Park, which was the
manufacturing facility that we continue to grow and grow and
grow until it became actually the largest photographic product manufacturing
(10:35):
facility in the world. I did some research actually, and
I wanted to see if anybody had surpassed it, and
from as far as I can tell, it is still
the biggest ever built, uh, the biggest in the US,
extremely functioning. I think it's in South Carolina by Fujifilm.
But it just goes to show that this hasn't been
like like unrivaled since the day was finished being built
(10:59):
to total size. So kodec Parwerk begins to be built
in eighteen ninety. At its height, it is two hundred buildings.
It's six four miles east to west and then even
longer north to south. It's huge. It has its own
power plants, it has its own way water treatment facilities,
it has its own medical facilities. It's on private railcasse
(11:21):
and in sense, it's like this little baby city inside
this larger city that's Rochester, New York. And then because
this facility is so huge, there's tons of employees that
work in it. So at Kodak Park alone, thirty thousand
employees work at Kodak Park. And then and the bigger
like Rochester, New York area, we're looking at like sixty
(11:44):
two thousand just for this one company, which is huge.
I mean some global companies today might have sixty two
thousand employees worldwide. Having them all in one city is just
massive so when people like refer to Kodak, it was like, oh,
we refer to the great Yellow Father, because codec cameras
(12:04):
all came and like these like you know, unique, uniquely
yellow colored boxes. Or it's like the mother, the kodactor
sad mother. She cares for us, she provides our retirement plans,
our jobs, our our university. People really loved it, and
people didn't really have anything bad to say about it.
Part of the reason I suspect is so the what's
(12:27):
this thing called like it called it like Camp Eastman.
It was suspected to be like loyalty training basically, don't
say anything bad before any concerns. Anything is fantastic. It's
all you know, what is it shun shrine and rainbows
here and there's no problems and people people loved Kodak.
And then even even like during like after the bankruptcy.
(12:51):
I remember I was in seventh grade science class and
my science teacher was showing me a video of how
they were tearing down one of the Kodak buildings actually
like kind of imploded the buildings, but like it wasn't
being used anymore and they wanted to make room for
new things. And I know that he was just like
so so sad I as far as I knew, he
had never worked for Kodak himself. But it's a sense
(13:12):
that it's like, wow, we're losing part of this like
great essence. It's a community grant you. This is like
two thousand and like fifteen or so or sixteen, and
it's just like Kodak you can still see all of
its impact on the community. I mean, I was also
(13:33):
like reading from stuff too, and I remember it was
like this one building came down, like people were crying,
people who had been burned by Kodak chemicals in the past.
Because it's like, wow, this is so sad to see
this thing though. And I think that's it's really important
to understand that Rochester in New York was a company town.
This wasn't just like, i mean, like nine to five
(13:53):
job that you go to, but it was like so
deeply embedded into the community, which made the crimes of
Kodak environmentally, environmental justice wise, so much more devastating Kodak.
In fact, the reason Kodak started to become unpopular was
because of its environmental you know, crimes. In nineteen eighty eight,
(14:16):
there was a metho chloride pipes. Still, thirty thousand gallons
ended up leaching near a elementary school. If you just
a few hundred yards away from you know, were a
little elementary kids schools to go to school. And that
wasn't bad enough. The next year there was a giant
vapor cloud. Three miles of the entire city were covered.
The high rates were shut down, kids had to go
(14:39):
home from school, people were told do not go outside.
People got injured. And while I'm sure Kodak had plenty
of environmental issues before, you know, nineteen eighty eight, when
they had their pipes spit and everything, it's kind of
hard for the community to ignore when you have, you know,
your kids are being exposed to chemicaldex school, or you
can't go outside because it's a giant vapor you can't
(15:00):
see anything. And then also it's not just the environmental
that we stopped seeing this kind of Kodak in the
in the late eighteen nineteen eighties. We also see that
the workers stock going. So between nineteen eighty four it
was kind of like the last year the height. So
really Kodak had its glory years from the late nineteen
(15:22):
seventies to the early nineteen eighties and then beginning like
nineteen eighty four, the workers stop going. So it's not
just granted, you have your environmental issues in the late
eighteen late nineteen eighties, but you also have these worker
layoff issues. So we see what we see eighteen thousand
(15:44):
workers laid off in a period of sixty years, which
is just huge, and eighteen thousand workers being just in Rochester,
not just worldwide, just in Rochester. I'm sure since Kodak
was a global company, I'm sure there's also plenty of
layoffs outside beside the Rochester but i know, like when
we have like maybe one hundred people laid off, it
makes the news here. Eighteen thousand over a course of
(16:08):
you know, four years is massive, So you really started
so many people's minds. So they're like, well, yeah, which
they're a company town, but now like they're like, you know,
killing us and killing our kids with chemicals and we're
no longer getting a job, and then things just keep spiraling.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Let me ask you a question about that, because that's interesting.
So Kodak spent all this time, i'm assuming, all these
resources to make it self part of this community. They
were able to kind of gain the favor and gain
the appeal of people that live there, and people spoke
highly of Kodak. And so when these things started happening,
(16:45):
from your understanding, did the community members themselves or elected officials, mayors,
city council, do they have any ability or any type
of influence on how Kodak responded to these environmental concerns
and issues that were now visible. Did they have any
input into the ways in which they were managing the
(17:05):
workforce laying off so many people so quickly? Like, what
did the community get to do in terms of allowing
itself to be protected or insulated or at least have
a voice into what Kodak was on me? Because they were
clearly a major player in the city and with community
(17:28):
support and backing, they were able to grow the way
they did. So when these things start happening, how did
the community respond to it and how were they able
or were they able to have any impact on what
Kodak did during this time?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
So I think there's two different groups. So look at
you have like I call like your average citizen, and
then you also have like the city council that you
referred to the average citizen. They did form Environmental Coalition.
They formed associations, neighborhoods all saying we don't want like,
well we're not like we don't want Kodak, but we
(18:04):
want Kodak to clean up. It's act kind of thing.
We want them to treat us properly. And it was
also a pent up thing too, because often these communities
kind of knew that they had been exposed to unfair
chemical like you know, undoe burdens, and now it's like,
now we have this opportunity because now as everybody knows
that we have an issue. So I think back it
was like had like data faction was like Okay, nobody
(18:26):
go buy Kodak cameras, we're boycotting some kind of thing mm.
In the meantime, City Council. From from what I can tell,
it was just more like, oh, you're the fine slap
onder this kind of thing. It's like, well, some of
them probably, I obviously can't say this for certain. I'm
sure some of them probably got their election campaigns partially
(18:47):
funded by Kodak kind of thing. Course, so it's it's
truly more like it's the citizens. And then also the
New York State Department of Environmental conservation starts getting involved. Well,
so I can start happening on the state level, they
start doing real audits and stuff, and the audits what
they do, there'll be huge issues that yes, co directors
(19:11):
take them steps, you know, to want to make themselves
look better after the audit. But it's not like it's
not great. I mean, if you have all these issues
on the audit, you can try to fix it, but
it just showed you that you didn't care enough to
in the first place to make sure that these will
not be issues.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
That's right. I always I always ask that question because
it's in moments like these, when you have these environmental
catastrophes that you actually get to see how much a
company or corporation truly cares about the community that they
say they're serving, the people that they say they support
who work there. I mean, we know from the beginning
(19:50):
when you talked about all the benefits that the workers
got from the company. I'm assuming they still continue the insurance,
the dividends, those really important compensatory elements of the job.
But now, if you're exposing your workers to chemicals, if
you're exposing the broader community to chemicals, their children, the
small children. Now the response gets to show us, hey,
(20:16):
did you really care all along or not? Or was
this all just a part of your kind of business
strategy to grow and develop as a corporation. And so
I wonder during that time how much Kodak was willing
to engage the community, these community groups, how willing they
were to take proactive steps to try at least to
(20:40):
clean up what they were destroying, because obviously they're very profitable,
they're growing rapidly. I imagine though the layoffs were part
of their decline as well. And so you talk more
about that in a second. But do you get the
sense that Kodak as an organization had a desire to
(21:00):
clean up these messes and to serve the community better
or were they really just trying to push as much
as they could off and continue to grow and profit
at the corporation.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
I would say that if you will, like paycate the community.
So for example, like the smoke from the smoke stacks
would ruin, like the finishes on people's cars. So they
were like, okay, well repaint your car for you. Okay,
I guess you don't have to do that. It's nice
of you, but you're not fixing the issue right. And
I think ultimately and our heresion more, some of my
(21:34):
buyers might come in. I feel maybe perhaps in the
early you know, nineteen hundred, maybe mid nineteen hundred take
care more. But over time you start to see it's
more of the sense of effect. We're all about the money.
The CEO is caring about I guess, like the stakeholder,
you know, investments, and that's when we start to see
it happening. It's a possible maybe just because it's me,
(21:56):
I'm from much to New York, if I had this
sense that also, like I would I it was this
great company that we actually be thankful for in a sentence,
because that's the reason the city was kind of founded.
Perhaps so I do adm miss that, but I ultimately
do think that it's just a sense of like, well,
we're kind of skirt by where we know, do some
(22:16):
placating of the community, or show up to some meetings.
We'll say we're gonna do better. Well, you know, we'll
improve on our audit standing. Oh look, we did great.
Let's publish this in the newspaper. We did fantastic. Let's
talk about put an article out there about how we're
renewing our commitment to the global environment and how things
are doing great kind of thing. And part of it
(22:39):
is kind of like this is just like if the
early version of greenwashing, where it's like we're doing all
these great things for the community and for the environment.
Oh look we updated this smoke the you know, the
scriber technology on our smokestack. Yeah, everybody class news conference.
I meanwhile, it's like, now, please ignore the other, like
forty skeletons in the closet.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
That what's to high m No, that makes perfect sense.
And so I can imagine that. And I guess a
lot of corporations are like this. Right when they're founded,
they're smaller, they're more community driven, you know, kind of
mom and pop styled, you know, way of engaging the public.
And as it grows and as different people come in,
(23:20):
maybe younger people, maybe more business minded people start looking
for ways to increase profitability, increased you know, shareholder value,
increase all these different things, and in the meantime, the
community gets pushed to the side. Regulations are they've always
been you know, taught bad about by corporations as a
(23:41):
hindrance to growth, and so that could be another thing too,
and so I imagine over time it just became more
and more detrimental to have them around. And so it
gets to a point where Kodak actually starts declining in
value and standing after the community support is waning because
(24:04):
of these environmental catastrophes and these spills and these leaks
and all this exposure, and then the layoffs come. Tell
us more about what happened to Kodak, What happened to them?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, So we continue this sentiment decline through the nineties,
and then in twenty twelve, in January, so you know,
first month of new year, they declare bankruptcy. And then
they start basically and in sense I would say, restructuring
the company, you know, cutting their losses sort of thing.
And at this point, Kodak cameras are you know, obsolete,
(24:42):
if you will. So part of the reason Kodak started
to fade in the first place is, yes, one, because
of all those environmental issues they were having, all these externalities,
if you will. They were not considering all the harm
they were doing deg inivolume. But I would say the
probably the bigger issue that drew them up, broke them
of business, was their business plan. So Kodoaks are itself
(25:03):
as this chemical company. Okay, people are gonna love film forever.
People aren't going to like embrace digital photography. And so
I kept trying to push, you know, the film cameras. Yes,
they did get into the digital photography realm. In fact,
some of the earliest digital cameras were actually concepts of
their own design. But it was like, we don't want
(25:24):
to let go of our path as this you know,
film chemical photo developing company, and so they made some
investment choices, they made some you know, research choices, and
they just actually continued down the film realm. And unfortunately
that's kind of what killed them because I don't think
thinking about today, everybody got your cell phone with digital
(25:45):
camera in there. We don't. People I feel like, rarely
ever use film cameras anymore. That's it's like, oh, I
want to go pay with my tolar world or something,
or I'm actually like an actual, like very professional photographer
who's using film for some kindind of look look or
us here or something like that. And it's just it's
just slow decline, which is like many times in life,
(26:08):
but it was a decline that could ultimately be seen
becoming just because of all these poor business choices that
were being made and environmental choices being made, so that
ultimately needs us right to January of two thousand. Well,
so Kodak, you know, goes understructuring. There are some Kodaks
spin offs today that still exist, but it's very i
(26:29):
would say, like specialty. So it's like we specialize in
like film desks, so like it used to play movies
back on way in the old days. Very like specialized stuff.
And it's not still. It may be under the name
of like it maybe like some Kodak long long long
name kind of thing, and it's not really Kodak anymore.
(26:50):
It's some like weird spinoff that has very little to
do with Kodak besides you know, it has to do
with film. It's still on the original location that Kodak
was instead or has code actually giant manufacturing facility that
was actually still is the largest photographic manufacturing facility that
was ever built. That became home to a bunch of
(27:11):
different companies. So yeah, some of them are CODEC spin off,
some of them are like more established companies, some of
them are startups. So I know, like previously we talked
about how Rochester's home to a bunch of startups. So
a bunch of startups have moved in and they're starting
to use like the technology that Codact left behind. Sure
you got to adapt from a bit, but the foundation
is good, the foundations data making some stuff. And then
(27:34):
for the established companies, we're looking at the part we're
looking at so you know, big big company that I
feel like we all we all hate for good reason.
And then there's also companies like Harris Corporation or also
known as El three Hairs. So they did to make
like radios for the military. They do some like missile
guiding systems, things like that. So unless like you're super
(27:56):
into military, probably familiar with film or like companies Autho
Clinical Diagnostic, So they're spun off from Johnson and Johnson.
So I think like the Johnson and Johnson COVID vaccine
and so they make a lot of medicines, and I
think oftentimes when we think, okay, so they left all
this infrastructure behind, so when something else has moved into
(28:20):
where so ultimately these companies Harris Corporation, DuPont, Authochrome for
Diagnostic is even a semiconductor company that's moved in there.
It's taking advantage of the stuff that Kodak left behind,
that was left behind in Kodak Park. Now here's why
I do have to say that Kodak Park officially does
not exist anymore. They have changed the name of that
(28:44):
being both Kodak and alf of the city as well.
So Kodak Park today is now Eastman Business Park, which
when we think about business parks, it sounds like, oh,
a bunch of offices the CEO, a nice suite, maybe
a massage chair. And yes, I would say that there's
some of that in there. There is some nice office
spaces available for right, but there's also manufacturing going on there,
(29:07):
so it's not just like, oh, a bougie chair, which
is also manufacturing. But this name change make it sound like,
oh now we're into like, no more environmental harm because
you're not really producing anything, you know, we just you know,
being the corporate love.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
So okay, there's a lot there. So Kodak Park is
no longer officially in existence. And so you've talked a
lot about how the kind of facility, infrastructure and the
operations of Kodak and what it became once it went bankrupt,
how that's changed over time, Can you tell us a
(29:45):
little bit more about how Kodak's bankruptcy impacted the community
as a whole, to Rochester, New York as a city,
because it feels like a lot of the people that
live there really relied on what Kodak offered, relied on
those jobs. I'm sure the contributions from Kodak to the
(30:06):
general public, I'm sure there were other donations made. You
talked about how they supported the struggling university there, the
School of Music, Like it's really a big part of
this community that if I wasn't paying attention, I would
believe that maybe all of that gets lost once Kodak
(30:31):
is no longer in existence, and maybe I don't know
if things collapse in terms of their ability to sustain themselves.
I don't know, if the donations dry up and things
have to change their names. Are things shutting down around
the town Because a lot of the discussion about the
impact of corporations is that they also do contribute to
the general fabric of a society. And then without them,
(30:53):
that's what they would tell us, right, without them, you
would lose a lot of that input and a lot
of those resources, And so what would you say, potentially
has changed community wide when Kodak went out of business,
went bankrupt.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
The truth is, I would say, because it took so
long for them to decline, there was time for I
would say adaptation. People started to see this them, you know,
falling down maybe twenty years prior to when it was happening.
So people I definitely started being made. The Yoko universities,
some of them that Kodak founded, like the Ocumency technology
(31:33):
started like okay, like, we're going to start preparing people
for careers that might be perhaps I used to Kodak,
but would also be great. You know. They could also
really work for startup communities. The medical school, like they
kids kept pushing out doctors. So I feel like the impact,
(31:53):
because it was such a slow burn, if you will,
was not huge. But I also want to be cognizant
that the impact was also a huge in many people's lives.
For example, retirement plans. If your tension came from Kodak,
it's gone. Kodak basically said, because you went bankrupt, we
don't have to honor your pension agreement anymore. You are
pretty much left without your retirement savings that we promised
(32:15):
you for all those years essentially.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Wow, so then what what?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
And then you help me to that, like, well I'm sixty,
I'm seventy, what do you I do? Okay, now I
go back to work. So then it's like and the
problem is, okay, so they've all been trained in film,
which is now kind of you know, dead, if you will.
So we're like, okay, I can't do that. And also
when you're seventy, I mean sometimes you know you're not
the most physically fit persons, not the most spry person
(32:43):
if you will, so you can't be doing like a
manual labor job that perhaps you were doing your codec.
So maybe now you're stuck, you know, driving the bus
and don't there's nothing wrong with driving the bus, but
you know you worked hard for your retirement. In this
sense of also like unfairness that you've been left high
and dry, that's right, that's right. And then I also
(33:04):
talked about it about like Kodak pay people have the money.
So now you're what maybe a photo what you're making
at Kodak just because you know you were in skill
labor and now you know, while driving a bus is skilled,
you do need certain itcense for that you're not making
as much anymore, so I do. I think there's a
sense that it really really hit individual people super super hard,
(33:27):
but the community as a whole was able to like
kind of like spring back if you wrote, and having
this other direction, this like startup direction, which is what
a lot of those a lot of the businesses in
Kodak Park today are the startups that this like downfall
of Kodak has helped to spur and Ki bring a vow.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
That is interesting. I mean, you read a lot of
stories about how when manufacturing leaves a town, or when
a large industry leaves a town, like the town can die,
right the people don't have the jobs, they don't have insurance,
they don't have those pensions, those guarantees, or not even
(34:06):
the training because all of their training was wrapped into
the one job that they did for that corporation, for
that facility and doesn't translate well. And so it's interesting
to hear how Rochester was able to kind of pivot
and still maintain its relevance and maintain its sense of
self as it moved away from Codect as it was declining,
(34:29):
and allowed for these startups and other entities to come
in and continue to at the very least provide opportunities
for people who wouldn't have had the motherwise without Kodect
being there. So that's an impressive story that I hope
people listening can really appreciate because that is not a
common occurrence. And in many instances, even on the federal level,
(34:54):
we proposed these ideas of you know, bailing out corporations,
bailing out large entities on the fact that without them,
those communities may not exist in their current form and
not be able to sustain themselves. And so Rochester clearly
could serve as a way of moving through a situation
(35:16):
where you were so reliant on one particular employer to
then transitioning to being able to still support your community
with the wide variety of options, good strong universities, great opportunities.
And so it's a testament to Rochester's resilience and ingenuity
that they were able to continue to be who they
(35:40):
were without this large embedded corporation in their midst And
so that is very, very interesting. And so we are
running out of time, But before we go, tell us
what you know, tell us what you really think about
(36:02):
the situation with Kodak, because I know you're a college student, right,
You're very analytical, well researched, well read. You understand the issues,
you articulate them very well. But for you personally being
from Rochester, seeing how things have changed, knowing people who
have grown up, they're knowing people who've been impacted, seeing
(36:24):
the fallout from some of the things that they've done,
how does how do you feel learning all these things,
seeing all these things, experiencing all these things.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
How I feel? I mean, it's it's missed. It's the
sense of For one, I feel like we've traded Kodakis
for another large employer, if you will, which is now
the University of Rochester Medical I guess, facility company, if
you will. I feel like every single week I hear
a new urgent care springing out and around town. I
(36:58):
feel I think essentially just trade one perhaps driven for another.
Though granted I don't know everything about the ish to
know about you know, the medical, large large medical company,
So I feel like, can I send you know, just
we're just transitioning to something new. It's a new name,
it's a new face. But in a sense I also
(37:18):
do feel I guess I would say it's also like
strength and crowded. It's like I can say my town
is known for something. My town is known for Kodak,
my town is known for Xerox, my town is known
for Boushilam. Because I feel like a lot of people,
especially like when I go to college, it's like, Hi,
I'm from what's a town, oh Astrabula, Ohio. What is
(37:40):
famous in that city? Not a play? There's not much
at all. But the thing is, I can like, well,
look at all these great names that have come from
my company, but I'm sorry I have come from my town.
In addition, like also like for example, like the famous
abolitionist Frederick Douglas wrote The North Star when he was
in Rochester. Look at that. We have famous people, Susan
(38:01):
the Anthony, the woman's who are like voting conventions also
happened like in Santa Clo Fall because you're writing near Rochesters,
and like how you look, I'm from somewhere important and
famous because I feel like we also we all want
to be from somewhere that's you know, being not like
a little like rinkydinky town that no one's ever heard of,
but in the same sense, you also feel it's like
(38:23):
we're famous also because of the wrong reasons. They were
all these harms that had happened to us people nationwide,
especially when Kodak was you know, in Fuse thematics height
new of Kodak. Yes, it's the camera company, but also
as the company that was killing the talent that lived
in through all it you know, photography, chemicals and through
all its this environmental neglect. But there and then it's
(38:47):
also of the sense it's also very conflicting because you
also know that Kodak continues to like, you know, sponsor
like scholarships for nearby universities, and you know the price
of universities the roof and they all have sponsored things
back in the day as well. A lot of the
scholarships are like the Georgiesman Scholarship, for example, because he
(39:08):
was such a grateful anthropace in the communities. When also
you're like, oh, it's kind of nice. At the same time,
it's just really like I don't know what to like
make it. I also feel at the same time you
feel bad that like Kodak has also ruined all these
people's lives in the sense that it's like they don't
really have the proper skills to you know, perhaps find
(39:30):
another job, some of them do, and why it's true
that the economy has done a really good job in transitioning,
some people are always going to be left behind and
what that kind of happens, and it's like you feel
terrible for them, especially for some of the older folks
who you know, they were retired. Now they're trying to
figure out what they want to do. And then the
(39:51):
senseific also this also carries down through the generations. And
part of the reason when talking about Kodak legacy environmental
justice in a series on this podcast is because of
its legacy. It's not just oh, Kodak's gone, issue gone,
is you solved? We shall have all these impacts and
it's just like I can see you can see all
(40:13):
like the structural foundations of harm that have just been
built over the years, and yes some of them are
like kind of crumbly, but they're still there and people
are still being impacted. Families are still in this cycle
of poverty because part of everything is because of what
Kodak has done. Maybe Kodak they had an explosion at
(40:35):
the plant. We had a bunch of they had a
bunch of workers die. Okay, So now we always have
lost somebody. It's it's it's just whole, Like I'm really
conflicted about what can make of Codec and I hope my, my, my, my, my,
kind of mad ramblings all over the place have have
made sense. But it's like yay Kodak, and also like
(40:55):
boo Kodak, And it's like, well, and it's like, how
how do I balance these really really conflicting feelings. Yes,
I enjoy that Kodak is done, you know, polluting the
Rochester in New York like it did, but it's also
I'm also a cognition of the fact that a lot
of things were lost when Coodac left. So it's like,
(41:18):
get back to this issue of legacy environment and Jesus,
we're happy the factory is gone. We're happy the community,
you know, does not have this active environmental indages of
allice polluting going on. But we recognize that this their
end is not the end for us. It's just simply
a new chapter in this book.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
So no, that's good, that's very good. I imagine a
lot of people had that same kind of visceral, conflicting
view when they think about a place like kodakt especially
with the way that it initially engaged the community, the
way it brought people in, the way it supported so
many people that were and live there, and to see
(42:02):
it kind of devolve into what it became and to
do the damage it's done, and to not be there,
I can imagine it'd be a very difficult thing to
try and describe in the words. And you're right, we're
here because the fact that the Kodak facility is no
longer currently actively operational doesn't mean that the environmental injustices
(42:28):
have ceased and that the people who have lived there
and who currently live there are not still currently dealing
with those impacts. And so we are going to talk
about that on our next episode, So for everybody listening,
please stay tuned for that. It's going to be a
great conversation. We dig deeper into this idea of legacy
(42:51):
environmental justice, and we do it looking at Kodak, and
we do it with our good friends Savannah. And so
just to sign off, Savanna, thank you so much for
your time, thank you for your insights, for your research,
for your passion, for those mad ramblings. We want more
of those on each and every episode. So thank you
so much for being on the podcast with me and.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Thank you for having me as.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Always absolutely and so this is the Environmental Justice Labe
where we are for the people and for the planet.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for being with us.
Once again, we are here with Savannah. We are talking
about legacy environmental justice, and on this particular episode, we
are diving deep into Kodak. Kodak is the company at
(00:46):
the center of our discussion about legacy environmental justice because
my good friend Savannah has very intimate knowledge. Savannah is
from Rochester and I cannot wait to learn more about
Kodak and its impact on the community. But we got
to start somewhere, so we're going to start with Kodak. Savannah,
(01:06):
thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on this podcast.
So I feel like it used to be that Kodak
was one of those household names that everybody knew about
back in the eighties, have you, But since it's you know,
gone bankrupt in through recent years, Kodak has just faded
into obscurity. But I feel like, first you have to
understand what the heck Kodak made, what the heck it does,
(01:30):
and what the heck well, I guess what it is
now today as well, because even though it is bankrupt,
it's still is out there, and sure people are still
familiar with it in some senses, even if you're like,
you're not, you know, born prior to you know, to
the two thousands.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yep, Nope, you're absolutely right. I remember. I mean, I'm
obviously much older than you are. But Kodak was the thing.
You had a Kodak camera, you took Kodak pictures. Everything
was Kodak. And obviously for people who were much younger
than me, my children, people in college, I guess this generation,
because of all the digital things that have been going
(02:07):
on the way that we do things now, Kodak isn't
really much of a thing at all. I'm not even
sure if people even know what Kodak is and so
or even what they did. So the idea of a
picture on film that you print and you frame and
(02:29):
you post somewhere or not post, you hang up on
the wall. We post things online, but you would hang
up some on the wall. We might have to start
there first. So before we even talk about Kodak as
a company, like, what did they actually do and make
and how important was that in the time that they
made it.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Definitely, so Kodak made film and camera So first got
to understand how film works. So film is essentially as
a piece of plastic. And then on, how about that
plastic is a jelly teen emotion and the emotion contains
sober highlight crystals, those silver halide crystals or help to
make your photograp So you go the little canister a
(03:09):
film into your camera, into your you know, your your
film camera. You click the button it exposed. This camera
short to open for the brief ist second, just let
enough light in so you can pret a image onto
that film. Now, if you look at that film by
just taking it out, you'd be like, there's nothing here
because it's invisible until we know develop the film's called
(03:31):
like the lighted image. Until you develop it. You gotta
develop it in a dark room, got a bunch of
special chemicals, do some stuff, gotta get the sober out
of the film. And then after all the developing has happened,
you get your image. You as to get the negative
as well. So that's kind of how film works in
a brief nutshell. But if you want to learn more
(03:52):
about film sho, I'm sure there's some other film podcasts
you can listen to it or something. But the OS
Codec also made cameras to go with the film. So
for example, they were known for like a little like
like ten dollars or so you get you on your camera,
it come to the little film. You take a bunch
of pictures click click, clickick click, and then once you're done,
you take the film roll out of it and then
you would send it back to Rochester, New York, where
(04:13):
they would develop your images for you and then they
would send them back to you. So it's kind of
way like a disposable little camera. And they were really
really popular because one it's cheap, and plus you get
a bunch of you get a bunch of cameras out
of it. Because the Kodec's model was like you push
the button. So if you, being the consumer, pushed the
butt in, get your photo and then we do the rest.
So we know, practiced your image for you because you
(04:35):
can't really develop that image on your own and actuel
like you having on your Doking studio, you on the chemicals.
You know what you're doing. It's a very it's just
it's a trade essential.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, And I remember growing up vacationing was you always
had to buy the disposable camera before you went on vacation,
and you would take the camera and it would have
a number at the top, and depending on how much
money you're willing to spend, that number was bigger. And
that number was the number of pictures you could actually
(05:05):
take with that camera when you go on vacation. And
so what we would do is you would take the
camera with you, you take a picture, you look through
a little hole, take the picture, crank it a little bit,
it clicks, the number goes down. You keep clicking, turning, clicking,
turning until you run out of pictures. Then you would
take that disposable camera to the local pharmacy and they
(05:28):
would take it from you, and then about I think
it was like three to four days, they would send
you a packet of those pictures that you took on vacation.
And it was the thing to do. And so everybody
had their disposable camera, everybody had their ways of doing pictures.
That was cheap, it was quick, and it was no hassle.
Because I can't imagine having to develop actual film anywhere.
(05:52):
I would never do that. I wouldn't spend the money
to try to create a place to do that. So
Kodak when it came when it had its disposable cameras,
it's processing equipment, all of its infrastructure. It became the
go to company for all things picture related. And so
(06:14):
that's how they were able to get such a strong
foothold just in the marketplace, because that service was invaluable
to families, to models, to anybody else who want to
take a picture. It was really really cool, and so
I appreciate the background. I actually didn't know how pictures
were actually created with film. I just knew that when
(06:34):
you took the thing back, they send you pictures in
the mail and hopefully they came out well. And so
it's good to get that history on film. But let's
transition to history about the company itself, because now we
have this juggernaut company in Rochester, New York. Can you
tell us how that all happened? How did they even
(06:55):
find themselves in upstate New York.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Definitely all started back way in eighteen eighty nine, which is,
like yiic really long ago. So he got this man.
His name is George Eastman. He is the founder of Kodaks. So,
like I mentioned, he founded the company in eighteen eighty nine.
It was the it was the Eastman Company, so not
Kodiak yet. It became the Eastman Kodec Company three years
(07:21):
later in eighteen ninety two, and everything started off really
really good. People loved loved the founder of Kodak, and
they also loved the company themselves. Part of the reason
they loved Kodaks so much is because Kodak cared for
its workers from anything that we can tell, and also
cared for the community. So, for example, with the workers,
(07:44):
they got like wage dividends at the end of the year. Now,
some of you guys may get wage dividends yourself if
your company's doing well, but back in the you know,
late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundredes, it just was not
a thing. Furthermore, they also got like ument annuities, life insurance,
disability benefit plans, all things which were very rare for
(08:06):
an employer to be giving their employees back in the day. Furthermore,
I mean, George Eastman gave away like one third of
his total codings to his employees. So he was very
popular among his employees and also the community. He don't
need it to the struggling, you know, little university. It
was then the Mechanics Institute of Rochester. Now today it's
(08:28):
the Rochester Institute Technology. You know, it's all one Carnegie
Classic classification research level two institution with like thirteen thousand students,
lots of computer science majors, lacks of you know, engineering
students that are doing really well. He also helped it
find like a bunch of dento clinics, which I mean,
(08:48):
I like, no one I'm gonna let you go onto
the dentist. But do you know, you got your good teeth,
you look good, You're probably gonna have a better future
ahead of you because just because you know what bias
does how people look. And if you got you know,
when I shinely rolled up, pearly white teeth, you're more
likely than you know, get further in life. In addition,
the Man also a styblished like the Eastman School of Music.
(09:10):
So for example, I had a young lady in my
high school. She wanted to be an operation. She applied
right to the Eastman School of Music, to the Juilliard
School in New York City, to the Berkeley School of Music.
All of these are really big names. Grant you if
you're not really into like music personally, I'm not super
into like classical music. Training. But like if you all,
(09:31):
you probably recognize all of these names. These schools all
have kind of similar programs to each other. Under all
along like the top list for top music schools in
the US, and today the Eastern School of Music is
still a really, really tough school. And he really helped,
you know, want cement Kodak into this community because you know,
he's funding the institution, he's helping kids look great with
(09:54):
smiley teas, he's the workers love him, and then he
just continues building the company until the point that we
get to, like it's Kodak's height. They owned about ninety
percent of the American film market, which is huge. Ninety
percent is massive. Today it's like infintesimal because of their bankruptcy,
(10:14):
but ninety percent is just huge. And then we also
see this community town start really revolving around Kodak. So
we get the foundation of Kodek Park, which was the
manufacturing facility that we continue to grow and grow and
grow until it became actually the largest photographic product manufacturing
(10:35):
facility in the world. I did some research actually, and
I wanted to see if anybody had surpassed it, and
from as far as I can tell, it is still
the biggest ever built, uh, the biggest in the US,
extremely functioning. I think it's in South Carolina by Fujifilm.
But it just goes to show that this hasn't been
like like unrivaled since the day was finished being built
(10:59):
to total size. So kodec Parwerk begins to be built
in eighteen ninety. At its height, it is two hundred buildings.
It's six four miles east to west and then even
longer north to south. It's huge. It has its own
power plants, it has its own way water treatment facilities,
it has its own medical facilities. It's on private railcasse
(11:21):
and in sense, it's like this little baby city inside
this larger city that's Rochester, New York. And then because
this facility is so huge, there's tons of employees that
work in it. So at Kodak Park alone, thirty thousand
employees work at Kodak Park. And then and the bigger
like Rochester, New York area, we're looking at like sixty
(11:44):
two thousand just for this one company, which is huge.
I mean some global companies today might have sixty two
thousand employees worldwide. Having them all in one city is just
massive so when people like refer to Kodak, it was like, oh,
we refer to the great Yellow Father, because codec cameras
(12:04):
all came and like these like you know, unique, uniquely
yellow colored boxes. Or it's like the mother, the kodactor
sad mother. She cares for us, she provides our retirement plans,
our jobs, our our university. People really loved it, and
people didn't really have anything bad to say about it.
Part of the reason I suspect is so the what's
(12:27):
this thing called like it called it like Camp Eastman.
It was suspected to be like loyalty training basically, don't
say anything bad before any concerns. Anything is fantastic. It's
all you know, what is it shun shrine and rainbows
here and there's no problems and people people loved Kodak.
And then even even like during like after the bankruptcy.
(12:51):
I remember I was in seventh grade science class and
my science teacher was showing me a video of how
they were tearing down one of the Kodak buildings actually
like kind of imploded the buildings, but like it wasn't
being used anymore and they wanted to make room for
new things. And I know that he was just like
so so sad I as far as I knew, he
had never worked for Kodak himself. But it's a sense
(13:12):
that it's like, wow, we're losing part of this like
great essence. It's a community grant you. This is like
two thousand and like fifteen or so or sixteen, and
it's just like Kodak you can still see all of
its impact on the community. I mean, I was also
(13:33):
like reading from stuff too, and I remember it was
like this one building came down, like people were crying,
people who had been burned by Kodak chemicals in the past.
Because it's like, wow, this is so sad to see
this thing though. And I think that's it's really important
to understand that Rochester in New York was a company town.
This wasn't just like, i mean, like nine to five
(13:53):
job that you go to, but it was like so
deeply embedded into the community, which made the crimes of
Kodak environmentally, environmental justice wise, so much more devastating Kodak.
In fact, the reason Kodak started to become unpopular was
because of its environmental you know, crimes. In nineteen eighty eight,
(14:16):
there was a metho chloride pipes. Still, thirty thousand gallons
ended up leaching near a elementary school. If you just
a few hundred yards away from you know, were a
little elementary kids schools to go to school. And that
wasn't bad enough. The next year there was a giant
vapor cloud. Three miles of the entire city were covered.
The high rates were shut down, kids had to go
(14:39):
home from school, people were told do not go outside.
People got injured. And while I'm sure Kodak had plenty
of environmental issues before, you know, nineteen eighty eight, when
they had their pipes spit and everything, it's kind of
hard for the community to ignore when you have, you know,
your kids are being exposed to chemicaldex school, or you
can't go outside because it's a giant vapor you can't
(15:00):
see anything. And then also it's not just the environmental
that we stopped seeing this kind of Kodak in the
in the late eighteen nineteen eighties. We also see that
the workers stock going. So between nineteen eighty four it
was kind of like the last year the height. So
really Kodak had its glory years from the late nineteen
(15:22):
seventies to the early nineteen eighties and then beginning like
nineteen eighty four, the workers stop going. So it's not
just granted, you have your environmental issues in the late
eighteen late nineteen eighties, but you also have these worker
layoff issues. So we see what we see eighteen thousand
(15:44):
workers laid off in a period of sixty years, which
is just huge, and eighteen thousand workers being just in Rochester,
not just worldwide, just in Rochester. I'm sure since Kodak
was a global company, I'm sure there's also plenty of
layoffs outside beside the Rochester but i know, like when
we have like maybe one hundred people laid off, it
makes the news here. Eighteen thousand over a course of
(16:08):
you know, four years is massive, So you really started
so many people's minds. So they're like, well, yeah, which
they're a company town, but now like they're like, you know,
killing us and killing our kids with chemicals and we're
no longer getting a job, and then things just keep spiraling.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Let me ask you a question about that, because that's interesting.
So Kodak spent all this time, i'm assuming, all these
resources to make it self part of this community. They
were able to kind of gain the favor and gain
the appeal of people that live there, and people spoke
highly of Kodak. And so when these things started happening,
(16:45):
from your understanding, did the community members themselves or elected officials, mayors,
city council, do they have any ability or any type
of influence on how Kodak responded to these environmental concerns
and issues that were now visible. Did they have any
input into the ways in which they were managing the
(17:05):
workforce laying off so many people so quickly? Like, what
did the community get to do in terms of allowing
itself to be protected or insulated or at least have
a voice into what Kodak was on me? Because they were
clearly a major player in the city and with community
(17:28):
support and backing, they were able to grow the way
they did. So when these things start happening, how did
the community respond to it and how were they able
or were they able to have any impact on what
Kodak did during this time?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
So I think there's two different groups. So look at
you have like I call like your average citizen, and
then you also have like the city council that you
referred to the average citizen. They did form Environmental Coalition.
They formed associations, neighborhoods all saying we don't want like,
well we're not like we don't want Kodak, but we
(18:04):
want Kodak to clean up. It's act kind of thing.
We want them to treat us properly. And it was
also a pent up thing too, because often these communities
kind of knew that they had been exposed to unfair
chemical like you know, undoe burdens, and now it's like,
now we have this opportunity because now as everybody knows
that we have an issue. So I think back it
was like had like data faction was like Okay, nobody
(18:26):
go buy Kodak cameras, we're boycotting some kind of thing mm.
In the meantime, City Council. From from what I can tell,
it was just more like, oh, you're the fine slap
onder this kind of thing. It's like, well, some of
them probably, I obviously can't say this for certain. I'm
sure some of them probably got their election campaigns partially
(18:47):
funded by Kodak kind of thing. Course, so it's it's
truly more like it's the citizens. And then also the
New York State Department of Environmental conservation starts getting involved. Well,
so I can start happening on the state level, they
start doing real audits and stuff, and the audits what
they do, there'll be huge issues that yes, co directors
(19:11):
take them steps, you know, to want to make themselves
look better after the audit. But it's not like it's
not great. I mean, if you have all these issues
on the audit, you can try to fix it, but
it just showed you that you didn't care enough to
in the first place to make sure that these will
not be issues.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
That's right. I always I always ask that question because
it's in moments like these, when you have these environmental
catastrophes that you actually get to see how much a
company or corporation truly cares about the community that they
say they're serving, the people that they say they support
who work there. I mean, we know from the beginning
(19:50):
when you talked about all the benefits that the workers
got from the company. I'm assuming they still continue the insurance,
the dividends, those really important compensatory elements of the job.
But now, if you're exposing your workers to chemicals, if
you're exposing the broader community to chemicals, their children, the
small children. Now the response gets to show us, hey,
(20:16):
did you really care all along or not? Or was
this all just a part of your kind of business
strategy to grow and develop as a corporation. And so
I wonder during that time how much Kodak was willing
to engage the community, these community groups, how willing they
were to take proactive steps to try at least to
(20:40):
clean up what they were destroying, because obviously they're very profitable,
they're growing rapidly. I imagine though the layoffs were part
of their decline as well. And so you talk more
about that in a second. But do you get the
sense that Kodak as an organization had a desire to
(21:00):
clean up these messes and to serve the community better
or were they really just trying to push as much
as they could off and continue to grow and profit
at the corporation.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
I would say that if you will, like paycate the community.
So for example, like the smoke from the smoke stacks
would ruin, like the finishes on people's cars. So they
were like, okay, well repaint your car for you. Okay,
I guess you don't have to do that. It's nice
of you, but you're not fixing the issue right. And
I think ultimately and our heresion more, some of my
(21:34):
buyers might come in. I feel maybe perhaps in the
early you know, nineteen hundred, maybe mid nineteen hundred take
care more. But over time you start to see it's
more of the sense of effect. We're all about the money.
The CEO is caring about I guess, like the stakeholder,
you know, investments, and that's when we start to see
it happening. It's a possible maybe just because it's me,
(21:56):
I'm from much to New York, if I had this
sense that also, like I would I it was this
great company that we actually be thankful for in a sentence,
because that's the reason the city was kind of founded.
Perhaps so I do adm miss that, but I ultimately
do think that it's just a sense of like, well,
we're kind of skirt by where we know, do some
(22:16):
placating of the community, or show up to some meetings.
We'll say we're gonna do better. Well, you know, we'll
improve on our audit standing. Oh look, we did great.
Let's publish this in the newspaper. We did fantastic. Let's
talk about put an article out there about how we're
renewing our commitment to the global environment and how things
are doing great kind of thing. And part of it
(22:39):
is kind of like this is just like if the
early version of greenwashing, where it's like we're doing all
these great things for the community and for the environment.
Oh look we updated this smoke the you know, the
scriber technology on our smokestack. Yeah, everybody class news conference.
I meanwhile, it's like, now, please ignore the other, like
forty skeletons in the closet.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
That what's to high m No, that makes perfect sense.
And so I can imagine that. And I guess a
lot of corporations are like this. Right when they're founded,
they're smaller, they're more community driven, you know, kind of
mom and pop styled, you know, way of engaging the public.
And as it grows and as different people come in,
(23:20):
maybe younger people, maybe more business minded people start looking
for ways to increase profitability, increased you know, shareholder value,
increase all these different things, and in the meantime, the
community gets pushed to the side. Regulations are they've always
been you know, taught bad about by corporations as a
(23:41):
hindrance to growth, and so that could be another thing too,
and so I imagine over time it just became more
and more detrimental to have them around. And so it
gets to a point where Kodak actually starts declining in
value and standing after the community support is waning because
(24:04):
of these environmental catastrophes and these spills and these leaks
and all this exposure, and then the layoffs come. Tell
us more about what happened to Kodak, What happened to them?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, So we continue this sentiment decline through the nineties,
and then in twenty twelve, in January, so you know,
first month of new year, they declare bankruptcy. And then
they start basically and in sense I would say, restructuring
the company, you know, cutting their losses sort of thing.
And at this point, Kodak cameras are you know, obsolete,
(24:42):
if you will. So part of the reason Kodak started
to fade in the first place is, yes, one, because
of all those environmental issues they were having, all these externalities,
if you will. They were not considering all the harm
they were doing deg inivolume. But I would say the
probably the bigger issue that drew them up, broke them
of business, was their business plan. So Kodoaks are itself
(25:03):
as this chemical company. Okay, people are gonna love film forever.
People aren't going to like embrace digital photography. And so
I kept trying to push, you know, the film cameras. Yes,
they did get into the digital photography realm. In fact,
some of the earliest digital cameras were actually concepts of
their own design. But it was like, we don't want
(25:24):
to let go of our path as this you know,
film chemical photo developing company, and so they made some
investment choices, they made some you know, research choices, and
they just actually continued down the film realm. And unfortunately
that's kind of what killed them because I don't think
thinking about today, everybody got your cell phone with digital
(25:45):
camera in there. We don't. People I feel like, rarely
ever use film cameras anymore. That's it's like, oh, I
want to go pay with my tolar world or something,
or I'm actually like an actual, like very professional photographer
who's using film for some kindind of look look or
us here or something like that. And it's just it's
just slow decline, which is like many times in life,
(26:08):
but it was a decline that could ultimately be seen
becoming just because of all these poor business choices that
were being made and environmental choices being made, so that
ultimately needs us right to January of two thousand. Well,
so Kodak, you know, goes understructuring. There are some Kodaks
spin offs today that still exist, but it's very i
(26:29):
would say, like specialty. So it's like we specialize in
like film desks, so like it used to play movies
back on way in the old days. Very like specialized stuff.
And it's not still. It may be under the name
of like it maybe like some Kodak long long long
name kind of thing, and it's not really Kodak anymore.
(26:50):
It's some like weird spinoff that has very little to
do with Kodak besides you know, it has to do
with film. It's still on the original location that Kodak
was instead or has code actually giant manufacturing facility that
was actually still is the largest photographic manufacturing facility that
was ever built. That became home to a bunch of
(27:11):
different companies. So yeah, some of them are CODEC spin off,
some of them are like more established companies, some of
them are startups. So I know, like previously we talked
about how Rochester's home to a bunch of startups. So
a bunch of startups have moved in and they're starting
to use like the technology that Codact left behind. Sure
you got to adapt from a bit, but the foundation
is good, the foundations data making some stuff. And then
(27:34):
for the established companies, we're looking at the part we're
looking at so you know, big big company that I
feel like we all we all hate for good reason.
And then there's also companies like Harris Corporation or also
known as El three Hairs. So they did to make
like radios for the military. They do some like missile
guiding systems, things like that. So unless like you're super
(27:56):
into military, probably familiar with film or like companies Autho
Clinical Diagnostic, So they're spun off from Johnson and Johnson.
So I think like the Johnson and Johnson COVID vaccine
and so they make a lot of medicines, and I
think oftentimes when we think, okay, so they left all
this infrastructure behind, so when something else has moved into
(28:20):
where so ultimately these companies Harris Corporation, DuPont, Authochrome for
Diagnostic is even a semiconductor company that's moved in there.
It's taking advantage of the stuff that Kodak left behind,
that was left behind in Kodak Park. Now here's why
I do have to say that Kodak Park officially does
not exist anymore. They have changed the name of that
(28:44):
being both Kodak and alf of the city as well.
So Kodak Park today is now Eastman Business Park, which
when we think about business parks, it sounds like, oh,
a bunch of offices the CEO, a nice suite, maybe
a massage chair. And yes, I would say that there's
some of that in there. There is some nice office
spaces available for right, but there's also manufacturing going on there,
(29:07):
so it's not just like, oh, a bougie chair, which
is also manufacturing. But this name change make it sound like,
oh now we're into like, no more environmental harm because
you're not really producing anything, you know, we just you know,
being the corporate love.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
So okay, there's a lot there. So Kodak Park is
no longer officially in existence. And so you've talked a
lot about how the kind of facility, infrastructure and the
operations of Kodak and what it became once it went bankrupt,
how that's changed over time, Can you tell us a
(29:45):
little bit more about how Kodak's bankruptcy impacted the community
as a whole, to Rochester, New York as a city,
because it feels like a lot of the people that
live there really relied on what Kodak offered, relied on
those jobs. I'm sure the contributions from Kodak to the
(30:06):
general public, I'm sure there were other donations made. You
talked about how they supported the struggling university there, the
School of Music, Like it's really a big part of
this community that if I wasn't paying attention, I would
believe that maybe all of that gets lost once Kodak
(30:31):
is no longer in existence, and maybe I don't know
if things collapse in terms of their ability to sustain themselves.
I don't know, if the donations dry up and things
have to change their names. Are things shutting down around
the town Because a lot of the discussion about the
impact of corporations is that they also do contribute to
the general fabric of a society. And then without them,
(30:53):
that's what they would tell us, right, without them, you
would lose a lot of that input and a lot
of those resources, And so what would you say, potentially
has changed community wide when Kodak went out of business,
went bankrupt.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
The truth is, I would say, because it took so
long for them to decline, there was time for I
would say adaptation. People started to see this them, you know,
falling down maybe twenty years prior to when it was happening.
So people I definitely started being made. The Yoko universities,
some of them that Kodak founded, like the Ocumency technology
(31:33):
started like okay, like, we're going to start preparing people
for careers that might be perhaps I used to Kodak,
but would also be great. You know. They could also
really work for startup communities. The medical school, like they
kids kept pushing out doctors. So I feel like the impact,
(31:53):
because it was such a slow burn, if you will,
was not huge. But I also want to be cognizant
that the impact was also a huge in many people's lives.
For example, retirement plans. If your tension came from Kodak,
it's gone. Kodak basically said, because you went bankrupt, we
don't have to honor your pension agreement anymore. You are
pretty much left without your retirement savings that we promised
(32:15):
you for all those years essentially.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Wow, so then what what?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
And then you help me to that, like, well I'm sixty,
I'm seventy, what do you I do? Okay, now I
go back to work. So then it's like and the
problem is, okay, so they've all been trained in film,
which is now kind of you know, dead, if you will.
So we're like, okay, I can't do that. And also
when you're seventy, I mean sometimes you know you're not
the most physically fit persons, not the most spry person
(32:43):
if you will, so you can't be doing like a
manual labor job that perhaps you were doing your codec.
So maybe now you're stuck, you know, driving the bus
and don't there's nothing wrong with driving the bus, but
you know you worked hard for your retirement. In this
sense of also like unfairness that you've been left high
and dry, that's right, that's right. And then I also
(33:04):
talked about it about like Kodak pay people have the money.
So now you're what maybe a photo what you're making
at Kodak just because you know you were in skill
labor and now you know, while driving a bus is skilled,
you do need certain itcense for that you're not making
as much anymore, so I do. I think there's a
sense that it really really hit individual people super super hard,
(33:27):
but the community as a whole was able to like
kind of like spring back if you wrote, and having
this other direction, this like startup direction, which is what
a lot of those a lot of the businesses in
Kodak Park today are the startups that this like downfall
of Kodak has helped to spur and Ki bring a vow.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
That is interesting. I mean, you read a lot of
stories about how when manufacturing leaves a town, or when
a large industry leaves a town, like the town can die,
right the people don't have the jobs, they don't have insurance,
they don't have those pensions, those guarantees, or not even
(34:06):
the training because all of their training was wrapped into
the one job that they did for that corporation, for
that facility and doesn't translate well. And so it's interesting
to hear how Rochester was able to kind of pivot
and still maintain its relevance and maintain its sense of
self as it moved away from Codect as it was declining,
(34:29):
and allowed for these startups and other entities to come
in and continue to at the very least provide opportunities
for people who wouldn't have had the motherwise without Kodect
being there. So that's an impressive story that I hope
people listening can really appreciate because that is not a
common occurrence. And in many instances, even on the federal level,
(34:54):
we proposed these ideas of you know, bailing out corporations,
bailing out large entities on the fact that without them,
those communities may not exist in their current form and
not be able to sustain themselves. And so Rochester clearly
could serve as a way of moving through a situation
(35:16):
where you were so reliant on one particular employer to
then transitioning to being able to still support your community
with the wide variety of options, good strong universities, great opportunities.
And so it's a testament to Rochester's resilience and ingenuity
that they were able to continue to be who they
(35:40):
were without this large embedded corporation in their midst And
so that is very, very interesting. And so we are
running out of time, But before we go, tell us
what you know, tell us what you really think about
(36:02):
the situation with Kodak, because I know you're a college student, right,
You're very analytical, well researched, well read. You understand the issues,
you articulate them very well. But for you personally being
from Rochester, seeing how things have changed, knowing people who
have grown up, they're knowing people who've been impacted, seeing
(36:24):
the fallout from some of the things that they've done,
how does how do you feel learning all these things,
seeing all these things, experiencing all these things.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
How I feel? I mean, it's it's missed. It's the
sense of For one, I feel like we've traded Kodakis
for another large employer, if you will, which is now
the University of Rochester Medical I guess, facility company, if
you will. I feel like every single week I hear
a new urgent care springing out and around town. I
(36:58):
feel I think essentially just trade one perhaps driven for another.
Though granted I don't know everything about the ish to
know about you know, the medical, large large medical company,
So I feel like, can I send you know, just
we're just transitioning to something new. It's a new name,
it's a new face. But in a sense I also
(37:18):
do feel I guess I would say it's also like
strength and crowded. It's like I can say my town
is known for something. My town is known for Kodak,
my town is known for Xerox, my town is known
for Boushilam. Because I feel like a lot of people,
especially like when I go to college, it's like, Hi,
I'm from what's a town, oh Astrabula, Ohio. What is
(37:40):
famous in that city? Not a play? There's not much
at all. But the thing is, I can like, well,
look at all these great names that have come from
my company, but I'm sorry I have come from my town.
In addition, like also like for example, like the famous
abolitionist Frederick Douglas wrote The North Star when he was
in Rochester. Look at that. We have famous people, Susan
(38:01):
the Anthony, the woman's who are like voting conventions also
happened like in Santa Clo Fall because you're writing near Rochesters,
and like how you look, I'm from somewhere important and
famous because I feel like we also we all want
to be from somewhere that's you know, being not like
a little like rinkydinky town that no one's ever heard of,
but in the same sense, you also feel it's like
(38:23):
we're famous also because of the wrong reasons. They were
all these harms that had happened to us people nationwide,
especially when Kodak was you know, in Fuse thematics height
new of Kodak. Yes, it's the camera company, but also
as the company that was killing the talent that lived
in through all it you know, photography, chemicals and through
all its this environmental neglect. But there and then it's
(38:47):
also of the sense it's also very conflicting because you
also know that Kodak continues to like, you know, sponsor
like scholarships for nearby universities, and you know the price
of universities the roof and they all have sponsored things
back in the day as well. A lot of the
scholarships are like the Georgiesman Scholarship, for example, because he
(39:08):
was such a grateful anthropace in the communities. When also
you're like, oh, it's kind of nice. At the same time,
it's just really like I don't know what to like
make it. I also feel at the same time you
feel bad that like Kodak has also ruined all these
people's lives in the sense that it's like they don't
really have the proper skills to you know, perhaps find
(39:30):
another job, some of them do, and why it's true
that the economy has done a really good job in transitioning,
some people are always going to be left behind and
what that kind of happens, and it's like you feel
terrible for them, especially for some of the older folks
who you know, they were retired. Now they're trying to
figure out what they want to do. And then the
(39:51):
senseific also this also carries down through the generations. And
part of the reason when talking about Kodak legacy environmental
justice in a series on this podcast is because of
its legacy. It's not just oh, Kodak's gone, issue gone,
is you solved? We shall have all these impacts and
it's just like I can see you can see all
(40:13):
like the structural foundations of harm that have just been
built over the years, and yes some of them are
like kind of crumbly, but they're still there and people
are still being impacted. Families are still in this cycle
of poverty because part of everything is because of what
Kodak has done. Maybe Kodak they had an explosion at
(40:35):
the plant. We had a bunch of they had a
bunch of workers die. Okay, So now we always have
lost somebody. It's it's it's just whole, Like I'm really
conflicted about what can make of Codec and I hope my, my, my, my, my,
kind of mad ramblings all over the place have have
made sense. But it's like yay Kodak, and also like
(40:55):
boo Kodak, And it's like, well, and it's like, how
how do I balance these really really conflicting feelings. Yes,
I enjoy that Kodak is done, you know, polluting the
Rochester in New York like it did, but it's also
I'm also a cognition of the fact that a lot
of things were lost when Coodac left. So it's like,
(41:18):
get back to this issue of legacy environment and Jesus,
we're happy the factory is gone. We're happy the community,
you know, does not have this active environmental indages of
allice polluting going on. But we recognize that this their
end is not the end for us. It's just simply
a new chapter in this book.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
So no, that's good, that's very good. I imagine a
lot of people had that same kind of visceral, conflicting
view when they think about a place like kodakt especially
with the way that it initially engaged the community, the
way it brought people in, the way it supported so
many people that were and live there, and to see
(42:02):
it kind of devolve into what it became and to
do the damage it's done, and to not be there,
I can imagine it'd be a very difficult thing to
try and describe in the words. And you're right, we're
here because the fact that the Kodak facility is no
longer currently actively operational doesn't mean that the environmental injustices
(42:28):
have ceased and that the people who have lived there
and who currently live there are not still currently dealing
with those impacts. And so we are going to talk
about that on our next episode, So for everybody listening,
please stay tuned for that. It's going to be a
great conversation. We dig deeper into this idea of legacy
(42:51):
environmental justice, and we do it looking at Kodak, and
we do it with our good friends Savannah. And so
just to sign off, Savanna, thank you so much for
your time, thank you for your insights, for your research,
for your passion, for those mad ramblings. We want more
of those on each and every episode. So thank you
so much for being on the podcast with me and.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Thank you for having me as.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Always absolutely and so this is the Environmental Justice Labe
where we are for the people and for the planet.
We'll see you next time.
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