March 25, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode, Savannah Domenech is back to dive into the economic effects of Kodak’s rise and fall in Rochester, New York. For decades, Kodak wasn’t just a company - it was the economic backbone of the city, providing tens of thousands of jobs and shaping the entire community. But when the company went bankrupt, so did the financial security of many Rochester residents.
What happens when an industry that once promised prosperity vanishes? Savannah unpacks the stark realities of Kodak’s economic collapse, from lost pensions and skyrocketing unemployment to the struggles of former workers forced back into the job market. They explore the racial and gender disparities in Kodak’s hiring and wage practices, the class-action lawsuits that followed, and the devastating impact of the company’s bankruptcy on retirees who were left with nothing.
But this isn’t just a story of loss - it’s also one of resilience. How did the community rebuild after the downfall of its largest employer? And what lessons can we learn about relying too heavily on a single industry? Let's explore this and so much more on this episode of The Environmental Justice Lab.
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
What happens when an industry that once promised prosperity vanishes? Savannah unpacks the stark realities of Kodak’s economic collapse, from lost pensions and skyrocketing unemployment to the struggles of former workers forced back into the job market. They explore the racial and gender disparities in Kodak’s hiring and wage practices, the class-action lawsuits that followed, and the devastating impact of the company’s bankruptcy on retirees who were left with nothing.
But this isn’t just a story of loss - it’s also one of resilience. How did the community rebuild after the downfall of its largest employer? And what lessons can we learn about relying too heavily on a single industry? Let's explore this and so much more on this episode of The Environmental Justice Lab.
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for joining us
and with us again. We're so thankful that she's here. Savannah,
Dimension's back talking about Kodak and all things Rochester. So Savannah,
how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I am doing good today? How are you doing this
fine day?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'm doing great. The weather finally changed down here, so
we went from thirties and low forties up to the
seventies and eighties. So that's exciting, I know, finally. But
we're not talking about the other day. We are talking
about Kodak. We are continuing our series and legacy Environmental Justice,
(01:08):
and we've been talking through a lot of the things
that go along with having a facility like Kodak in
your city, right, the environmental issues, the health issues, some
of the regulatory issues, lots of things going on. And
today we are going to talk about the economic aspects
(01:32):
of having Kodak in your town, specifically jobs, right, because
that's what they sell us on. They tell us, you
bring this company, you bring this organization in jobs, jobs, jobs,
and more jobs, and it lifts up the community. The
people who live there will benefit from all of the
economic activity that could take place when this company comes.
(01:56):
And so when it comes to Kodak, can you help
us understand what their impact was and what occurred economically
employment wise when Kodak was running high and strong in Rochester.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Definitely. So when Kodak was running high and strong in Rochester,
more than twenty percent of jobs in the area were
generated like by Kodek, which is incredibly huge, especially considering
that also like Xerox was founded in Rochester, as well
as Bauce Lam and even also Paychecks that that's pay
roll services was founded in Rochester. And then all these
(02:34):
jobs even though you know it's only twenty percent of
you know, the total jobs in the area, a little
bit more than that. Actually we're looking at about half
of the area's economics impact, which is still incredibly huge.
So people knew of Kodak as this you know, should
I say trustworthy organization you can count on, you know,
your lifetime job. There a lot of people had like
(02:56):
thirty plus year jobs. I found very interesting that it's
not like, say, like forty plus years, but it's forty
plus years, I'd be retiring it what like sixty sixty
five instead of retiring in fact a little bit earlier
than that, which is which is really really nice if
you know, if you can do that. So I think
it also goes to show that like people were set
up in a really good place that they could even
(03:17):
retire early, even like earlier than I that was it
sick the sixty four and a half for like collecting
your Social Security I hope that is correct.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I'm sure we'll check on it.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
We'll check it, okay. But and then like as a result,
like people saw Kodak as like an opportunity to like
go straight from you know, straight from high school. Right,
they're having a good paying job, and of course I'm
sure the parents are very proud of like the children
as well. Oh look, you get your foot in the door,
you don't mess anything up, and you have a job,
(03:49):
a good solid job for the rest of your working life.
And Kodak you know, took some employees through trade school.
Kodak uh you know, had a trade in their own
like education processes, so you could like you know, learn
trade another school, go to Kodak, or you just go
to Kodak and then you know they give you on
job training and you'll be good for you know, doing
(04:09):
a trading film for you know, your thirty years and
then you retire. So jobs the peak of CODEX operation
was really really good, I would say if you were
you know, white, for a certain important person of the time.
So a beginning in like the late sixties, we start
to see you know, the employee demographics, the CODEC started
(04:33):
to change, they start to allow more non aid workers.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
In.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Other reasons for this feeling is we also see that
what it's also occurring at this time, like the forehand
is you know, the civil rights movement. So Kodak was
in fact impacted by this. Particularly there was a Rochester
and organization they were like basically kind of like came
to the forefront of things. Maybe they solidify their connections
with community, with you know, employers and other community organizations.
(04:59):
And after we had there was there was race right
in Rochester in nineteen sixty four. So after that an
organization it's called fight so ECH stands for Freedom Integration,
God Honor Today and there goes essentially you know, to
fight to ensure that you know, no black residents of
the city could get you know, good jobs at Kodak
(05:19):
and other facilities, which they did before you know, the
late nineteen sixties. Of course it wasn't all white at Kodak,
but it was predominantly after that we started, you know, grow.
And I find this really interesting because this pollution, the
pollution from Kodak, is continuing to happen, you know, in
the fifties, in the sixties and the seventies, and the
(05:40):
thing is like, who is even though you may be
living in the area, you're not working there, but you're
still receiving the pollution. It's not like suddenly beginning in
the nineteen sixties, like the first black residents move into Rochester.
They had been living there for many, many years prior
the you know, being impacted by the pollution. Yeah, they
were really not many jobs for them, which goes to
(06:02):
show that sometimes the company may be coming in, but
in environment of situations where you're being promised to the jobs,
the communities being promised to jobs, but only certain groups
of people are being offered the jobs. Maybe people who
are of a certain you know, demographic, or who know
live a certain additions far away from the city, so
they're not you know, seeing the day to day impact
(06:24):
of their job. But in Rochester we see people grant you,
we do see more integration following the nineteen sixties, but
people are still being heavily impacted by a pollution even
though they don't necessarily get all the benefits from Kodak.
And even I would say, even even after the late
nineteen sixties, where Kodaks ought to do a bit of
a better job of integration, we don't see that Kodak,
(06:47):
as you know, planed off its ratio and oppressive history.
For example, in nineteen ninety six, Kodak finally came to
an agreement with both you know, black workers and also
female workers as well, and they said that, okay, we're
going to pay you guys more and pay you guys
in back wages, because essentially they were not paying these
(07:09):
two groups what they should have been paying them, especially
compared to you know, the white male counterparts. They were
not giving them the promotions they deserve. You might think, oh,
nineteen sixty ninety six, anything's fixed, everything's you know, all
disparities are you know, pretty much taken care of, but
not there anymore. But then you know, in two thousand
and nine we see actually two different class action lawsuits
(07:32):
are finally you know settled. One came from two thousand
and four. The other came from two thousand and seven,
and code LIKECT agree to pay twenty one point eight
million dollars to basically these groups of black workers who said, hey,
we are not being paid the same as our white
counter parks, and we're being neglected for these promotions as well.
(07:53):
So we also see, unfortunately in code accessory also racism
as well. However, as you know, you shouldn't do just
not care what you know color, it just cares where
you live. And then you depleted that way. And we
know that also a lot of people, especially after due
to white flight and things like that, that people who
are living around Kodak tend to you know, be be
(08:15):
non white. And yet here they are still suffering from
the vast majority of the pollution. Yet they're not being
you know, employed fairly and they're not being paid fairly either.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
That is interesting, So we got to talk about that
a little bit more. The first thing I want to
bring up is the idea that when Kodak comes, as
it grows, as it becomes one of the biggest employers
in Rochester, it is not actually employing the people who
live near the theocently most impacted because in a lot
(08:48):
of discussions. That's usually what people assume will take place.
If you live close, if you're nearby, you would be
kind of first in line to be able to work
and benefit from them being there. But that doesn't seem
to be the case, at least early on when Kodak
was running and running well, and so that is really
(09:09):
I guess it's not shocking, but it still surprises me
that even with all of that, the racism, the sexism
prevails and the employment workforce still remains very homogeneous as
far as those riots go. Do you how much do
(09:30):
you know about those riots? Was there a lot of
tension in Rochester the city? Was it just kind of
spillover from other parts of the country. Everybody's kind of
rising up and demanding their rights. What do you know
about what was going on during that time in Rochester
when these riots took place?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
From my understanding where I was going on to these
riots places, people assumed that everything was, you know, all
well and good in Rochester, and then people essentially essentially
joining a large and being like, no, not all is
well and good. Are you know, all white city council members,
Not everything is well and good, and we want you
to listen to us about like one hundred or two
(10:09):
hundred people took place in these riots. They weren't like
like you know, burned down the buildings or anything, but
they got people's attention, and there was also a lot
of community work that happened. So it's more like, you know,
I would say, like the explosion of like anger that
we have been treated for so long. Because also like
we also understand that like screaming at your face for
(10:31):
hours and years and won't get anything. We want to have,
you know, agreements, and it's a code that came to
an agreement with them. At first it actually wasn't honored
all that well, and then they tried again, and then
it's probably started to be happening on the employment workfront.
To be honest, I do not know like all the
details about like who was involved, because they can get
historical newspapers oftentimes the bias upon what they report, and
(10:56):
so like I'm looking at like you know, the local
Democrat and Chronicles, the local news paper, there's not doodles
of stuff on it. In addition, also unfortunately it's like
sixty years ago. Some things have been lost to time
because there wasn't digital papers back then. Just some stories
have you know now been digitalized today. So I wish
(11:17):
I could give more like like information about like who,
like what exactly their motives were, what they wanted exactly.
We can we know some of what they wanted. They
wanted integration, they wanted, you know, better opportunities for their children,
they wanted more access to jobs. But they equal rights.
(11:38):
Essentially we know this, but like we don't know all
the details, which is I think really really sad and
a test them into like more historical work needs to
be done. But I don't want to like be on
this podcast giving up wrong information either.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, no, don't do that. No, we don't need that
at all. I appreciate that. Obviously, we know about the
civil rights movement in the sixties, the civil rights gets
pass or rights gets passed, fairhousing gets passed, lots of
things happen to kind of shift the ways in which minorities, women,
other martialis communities are being treated. But even still from
(12:13):
that point in the sixties to nineteen ninety six and
then two thousand and nine, which is not that long ago,
they're still paying out these settlements. They're still dealing with
lawsuits they're still dealing with this legacy not just of
environmental injustice, but racial injustice and gender inequality and all
these different things. And then they go bankrupt. And so
(12:39):
when they go bankrupt, what does that do? Because I
would imagine people are suing and people are trying to
get restitution because they know that clus going to be
here for a while. We want to get ourselves in
the right position to be able to have these opportunities
because when they go bankrupt, is all that loss Now
is everything that we've been fighting for and working towards
(13:01):
in this community no longer available. What happens to the
people once Kodak is no longer functioning operationally in the city.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, So the good news is those who you know,
got those those class action lawsuits rooted in favor of them,
They still got their money. But the issue is is
because it was paid out pretty much my understanding kind
of like at one time, essentially it wasn't like you, no,
here's a million, here, here's a million there. So that
is the good news. The issue is, though you lost
(13:33):
your job probably three years later and now you're on
the search for a new job. And then also just
like Kodak, had done a lot of agreements with like
extra Tireese people who used to work there, that you
know that they would be essentially provided for life. You know,
you did your service, now you know, here's here's your
benefit kind of thing. And they said, you know, health
(13:54):
care benefits, you get your pensions. All that was just
basically ripped away from everybody saying we are not legally
the drudge is not rude that we have to pay
out these pensions. In fact, the judge said the exact opposite.
I said, please actually cancel it, because this is too
much for you know, your bankruptcy corps. You guys got
to like shed some money somewhere, so please like actually
(14:15):
suggested getting me to the pensions in Kodec, I would
perhaps happily a bliged saying, oh we can you know,
shave off all these millions of dollars. And that's that's
what they did obviously for you know, except action lawsuit.
The guy says, you're gonna pay it, so they did.
And we see also like retiring is okay? Maybe I
(14:36):
retired from Kodak, say ten years ago, I did my
thirty years of service, and now I'm like, well I'm
maybe you didn't have you know, one of those you know,
savings accounts or one of those are timement accounts. Now
what do you have to do? You got to go
back to work. And then the issue is oftentimes you
are in uh, you know, employed in film. Kodak was
(14:58):
the big really only film game in time. So now
your skills essentially are not you know, being catered to.
You might need to get new skills. Not any time that,
like any organization goes bankrupt, there's a huge concern about
you know, unemployment of course, but then also like concerns
regarding into like standards of living because if you you know,
(15:19):
don't have money, maybe you can't afford to pay your rent,
pay your chary and support bio's food upkeep, and then
that could lead to like you know, degragation, which is unfortunate,
and then you could be like forced out of your home,
you know, evicted, You could lose you could use your
mortgage because you no longer have these like concrete money
coming in and act really concern any time that with
(15:42):
any organization that is so far reaching. Its CODAC was
when they go bankrupt, Like the academic term is like densualization,
so that that's been happening around the United States as
we you know, shift more manufacturing either to overseas. The
things are going out of uh going going bankrupt. But
it's the thing that who is suffering. You know, the
(16:05):
company obviously, you know, suffers itself when it goes bankrupt,
but the lasting impact is on people and often these people.
You know, we live in a capitalist society. You need
you need money to you know, survive, and these people
now need to go find another job. And oftentimes, I mean,
if you already works thirty years, we can make some
(16:26):
assumptions about you that you know, you're over the hair
words they say, you're at least you're over fifty. And
as a result, sometimes it can be hard to pick
up a new skill and especially like that's also like
unfortunately age discrimination as well, being like well, you want
to retire anyway, so why would I hire you kind
of thing. And it's it's an unfortunate thing that these
(16:49):
jobs and these people were suffering as a result of
code bankruptcy because those promises of you know, pensions and
health care insurance vanished.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Wow, so Kodak goes to bankrupt, obviously you lose your job.
But if you were already retired, and you already had
an agreement. You lost that pension, and so now you
have no income whatsoever coming in. All you've ever done
was work at Kodak. All the skills that you've gained
(17:21):
were from Kodak, presumably to work for Kodak, not for
anyone else. And so you have these You could have
these potential retirees in their sixties and seventies back on
the job market trying to get a new skill, get
a new job, and convince someone to hire them to
(17:43):
work for them, even after they've retired after working for
forty thirty forty years at Kodak. I mean that just
that is just a horrible situation to be in. And
I can't imagine what that competitions like when you're back
in school, when you're back in the classroom, when you're
(18:04):
trying to interview with a potential employer and you're sixty
eight and we all know that you're coming out of
retirement because Kodak went out of business and cut your pension,
and so what kind of well, are there any services,
(18:26):
any kind of programs or organizations or you know, any
infrastructure in place to help people who dealt with Kodak
and their bankruptcy and their job loss and their pension loss,
recover and move forward, or everybody just on their own.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Definitely is infrastructure out there. So for example, when my
mom got laid off, she wasn't from Kodak, but it
during the similar time as when Kodak went bankrupt. She
you know, wanted to heart about its organization for a friend.
It's called like Rochester Works. It's funded by the county
some type of organizations as well, and they do different
things like how to make a resume, its skills training
(19:09):
such as that. There's of course other services that are
not free. I mean you can have to go online
and find lots of like pay me like thousands of
dollars and I'll make you like the prettiest resume ever.
I'll teach you you know, your personal branding, that sort
of thing. But the thing is like when your funding
is just being cut, you really can't be affording often
to you know, be shelling out the one k to
(19:30):
like help your next job. You need free services. And
the thing is Rochester does have them, and I think
that's great. The issue is, I would say they're very
well like perhaps you know. They're hidden gems in the
sense that like you have to know that it's there,
and you have to know the X looking about like
the won't even in my mom knew about it is
because whenever other coworkers happen to find about it, find
(19:52):
out about it. And don't get me wrong, water and
Mouth is very like powerful, but like you don't like
see like advertisings on the TV or anything. You just
have to like know X called this. You have to
like go to this website. It's the government website. Of
course it's are there, but very confusing and looking often,
and you have to know what services you're looking for.
And sometimes you're coming in retirement, you may not know
(20:13):
exactly what you need. So maybe like, oh, okay a resume,
Well what exactly should my resume have on it? Or
how much detail should I give? Or even things as
simple as like, well do do I need to know
build me a LinkedIn or something? Do I need to
do these other job searching things? What about different you know,
imployment portals? What do what should I be on? Indeed?
(20:35):
Should I be on a monitor? Should I be on
ZIP recruiter? Should I be on you know, insert recruiter
website here, and I think people often need to know.
Sometimes you just saying you don't know what you don't know,
and if you don't know exactly what you need, it
to be hard to get the help that you need.
I think if you get your foot in the door,
it's very helpful for these services can help you. But
(20:56):
it's also keep in mind a lot of these services
offer their services during the work day, so when you're
taking advantage of these services, you can't be saying, perhaps
they're interviewing for another job during the work day, So
there are you know, balances as well. It is nice
that it's during the work day because say maybe you
have a kid who you know, your kids going to school,
you can do it then. But it's often it depends.
(21:20):
So I would say yes, but the advertising could be
a bit better, I would argue.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, no, I understand. I mean you got to get
the word out. People have to know about it, engage
the service. They need to be supported financially. All those
things are important. One last question for you before we
wrap a this discussion. A lot of industries, especially very
large ones, usually when they come into town, they're coming
(21:50):
in they provide these services. They provide these goods, and
you have support industries around them, right, So they supply
material to that big industry for the industry to function,
and people get work off of that industry, right. So
we call it the industrial complex where all of these
different companies are coming because the big company benefits from
(22:14):
having them around to provide the things that they need
to function well. And then that kind of creates an
even larger scale economy within that city. I wonder if
when Kodak went, did anybody else have to go with
them as far as going bankrupt and not being able
to support themselves because they were here for Kodak, Or
was Kodak kind of a singular entity and once it
(22:37):
was bankrupt, that was that.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
So because one thing about Kodak, it was very much
like a soup to knocks kind of situation. So they
get a lot of their own building. So of course
there are suppliers as well that obviously would have suffered
from the loss of Kodak. But these suppliers, I would argue,
knew about Kodak's demise coming, so they had also found
other suppliers as well, So it's not like Kodak left,
(23:01):
I would say, with office other like Giant manufacturer or
this giant other supplier as well that was like reliant
on Kodak's being present. I would say maybe some of them,
the kisten like their important in the community, but I
wouldn't say that they you know, vanished all around.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Okay okay. So and then when Kodak okay, I guess
another question, when Kodak left because they went bankrupt, are
you aware of any major changes to the way the
city functioned beyond the rising employment? Right, so, the Kodak
(23:39):
fund a lot of things that the city did that
they no longer could do anymore because they were relying
on Kodak for the money. Were there certain attractions or
certain types of you know, entertainment venues or restaurant parts
of the town that relied on a lot of the
business that came from that struggled when they went bankrupt.
(24:04):
Did the city change a lot when that happened, or
where we're just trying to move forward and get through
working again, I.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Would say the city the city did change in a
sense that some areas became less important. And then we
also see that like when you lose your job, some
areas fall into you know, repair the disrepair, and then
we see that these areas unfortunately become labeled as like
the bad neighborhood is essentially and now quote unquote bad
(24:34):
neighborhoods are now trying to be you know, gentrified for
these new and upcoming sources. Kodak also had a big
part to play in the arts. Arts. Their Kodec Center
is actually still running. I'm not sure where that here's
funding from, but you know, you know, you still have
major artists that go there for shows and for example,
some schools graduations even happened to occurve there. So there
(24:57):
is there is still running, but it's not as great
as it used to be. In addition, just like the
area around Kodak there used to be you know, more restaurants,
more shops, and now it's more like roads and stuff
like that, and it's just like there's just less academic
activity everything now that we can like sprawl out. It's
kind of like the center has died, lets continue to
spread outwards. And then regarding scholarships, especially for you know,
(25:23):
like uh, you know, college students, a lot of those
scholarships were Kodak funded scholarships that helped them students get
through college or through technical school. Some of them, in
a sense still kind of do exist because you got
like people who are like still funding them, like individual donors,
because you know that's makes an impact down their life too,
don't want to give back sort of thing. But unfortunately
(25:44):
a lot of that funding one away. And it's also
very sad considering that a lot of these workers are
only who you know, there were tires, They were only
trained in film. They want to go back into like
a more skilled trade, they have to get more education,
and education costs money, so it means that the skills
is also people kindent is being hammered down from numerous ways.
(26:05):
They needed skills training. But maybe it's just affordable that
it could have been, because Kodak is no longer waiting
to like even like give a few thousand dollars in
some places.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Oh man okay, I was wondering about that. So it
seems like, and it's clear to me at least from
this conversation, that Kodak worked really hard to be a
big part of the community, and it actually became that
to such a degree that once it went bankrupt, so
much of the community, so much of Rochester as a
(26:39):
city had to make some major adjustments to deal with
their departure. And so it's just another you know, lesson
for us, right, It's another way of understanding what it
looks like to be so tied to an industry, so
(27:00):
tied to a very particular organization, and what it can
look like when that orgitation no longer it's present. We
see the same thing in the auto industry. I'm wondering
even if the tech industry will see some of this
soon when some of these larger corporations, larger entities maybe
start shifting their operations, start doing things differently, how that
(27:20):
affect those towns that they're in that people were so
excited to have them present? What will that do? And
so this was a very good conversation. I'm really glad
you were able to share so much about what Kodak
did in the community, what happened when they went bankrupt,
and what the residents did to recover from all of
(27:42):
that has been very good. Is there anything else we
need to know? Anything at all? Tell me?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
I would just say, like, the thing is like, even
though Kodak went with a giant gaping hole, you know
she an innovation? Is there? There are startups, there are
tech ventures, and the city is economically diversifying, I would say,
and there is still life and light in that city.
I know oftentimes you might think the city's dead, it's
beyond cause, but no, it's not. There is still life
(28:09):
in that city. There is still people who we should
be caring about their potentials and their futures. We need
to be, you know, supporting these people how we possibly
can be supporting them, and whether that be you know,
even helping the youth. It just hasn't necessarily be like, oh,
only the Kodak former retirees. No, there's a there's a
generational cycle here that we often need to be aware of.
(28:31):
We need that, you know, we're helping the younger generation
who one day they'll be born after you know, the thinkers,
the codect you know, making sure that they you know,
get their high school diplomas, the GEDs, that there's you know,
flexible degree degree oftens for them and that's the route
they want to go, and that they can have skills
that aren't just honed into one industry or that can
be a broadly applied to a variety of different trades
(28:55):
and industries and potential futures for them. They're not putting
all their you know cards in one basket essentially. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
No, that's good. That's well said. It's well said. So Savannah,
thank you so much for this insight, thank you for
this history lesson, and for giving us a bigger, broader
understanding of what the economics look like when this kind
of facility comes and settles into your city. So I
(29:23):
really really appreciate it, and the listeners appreciate it. Thank
you so much for being with us honest episode today.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yes, thank you for being here. And that is another
episode of the Environmental Justice Lab, where we are for
the people and for the planet. We will see you
next time.
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you so much for joining us
and with us again. We're so thankful that she's here. Savannah,
Dimension's back talking about Kodak and all things Rochester. So Savannah,
how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I am doing good today? How are you doing this
fine day?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'm doing great. The weather finally changed down here, so
we went from thirties and low forties up to the
seventies and eighties. So that's exciting, I know, finally. But
we're not talking about the other day. We are talking
about Kodak. We are continuing our series and legacy Environmental Justice,
(01:08):
and we've been talking through a lot of the things
that go along with having a facility like Kodak in
your city, right, the environmental issues, the health issues, some
of the regulatory issues, lots of things going on. And
today we are going to talk about the economic aspects
(01:32):
of having Kodak in your town, specifically jobs, right, because
that's what they sell us on. They tell us, you
bring this company, you bring this organization in jobs, jobs, jobs,
and more jobs, and it lifts up the community. The
people who live there will benefit from all of the
economic activity that could take place when this company comes.
(01:56):
And so when it comes to Kodak, can you help
us understand what their impact was and what occurred economically
employment wise when Kodak was running high and strong in Rochester.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Definitely. So when Kodak was running high and strong in Rochester,
more than twenty percent of jobs in the area were
generated like by Kodek, which is incredibly huge, especially considering
that also like Xerox was founded in Rochester, as well
as Bauce Lam and even also Paychecks that that's pay
roll services was founded in Rochester. And then all these
(02:34):
jobs even though you know it's only twenty percent of
you know, the total jobs in the area, a little
bit more than that. Actually we're looking at about half
of the area's economics impact, which is still incredibly huge.
So people knew of Kodak as this you know, should
I say trustworthy organization you can count on, you know,
your lifetime job. There a lot of people had like
(02:56):
thirty plus year jobs. I found very interesting that it's
not like, say, like forty plus years, but it's forty
plus years, I'd be retiring it what like sixty sixty
five instead of retiring in fact a little bit earlier
than that, which is which is really really nice if
you know, if you can do that. So I think
it also goes to show that like people were set
up in a really good place that they could even
(03:17):
retire early, even like earlier than I that was it
sick the sixty four and a half for like collecting
your Social Security I hope that is correct.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I'm sure we'll check on it.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
We'll check it, okay. But and then like as a result,
like people saw Kodak as like an opportunity to like
go straight from you know, straight from high school. Right,
they're having a good paying job, and of course I'm
sure the parents are very proud of like the children
as well. Oh look, you get your foot in the door,
you don't mess anything up, and you have a job,
(03:49):
a good solid job for the rest of your working life.
And Kodak you know, took some employees through trade school.
Kodak uh you know, had a trade in their own
like education processes, so you could like you know, learn
trade another school, go to Kodak, or you just go
to Kodak and then you know they give you on
job training and you'll be good for you know, doing
(04:09):
a trading film for you know, your thirty years and
then you retire. So jobs the peak of CODEX operation
was really really good, I would say if you were
you know, white, for a certain important person of the time.
So a beginning in like the late sixties, we start
to see you know, the employee demographics, the CODEC started
(04:33):
to change, they start to allow more non aid workers.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
In.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Other reasons for this feeling is we also see that
what it's also occurring at this time, like the forehand
is you know, the civil rights movement. So Kodak was
in fact impacted by this. Particularly there was a Rochester
and organization they were like basically kind of like came
to the forefront of things. Maybe they solidify their connections
with community, with you know, employers and other community organizations.
(04:59):
And after we had there was there was race right
in Rochester in nineteen sixty four. So after that an
organization it's called fight so ECH stands for Freedom Integration,
God Honor Today and there goes essentially you know, to
fight to ensure that you know, no black residents of
the city could get you know, good jobs at Kodak
(05:19):
and other facilities, which they did before you know, the
late nineteen sixties. Of course it wasn't all white at Kodak,
but it was predominantly after that we started, you know, grow.
And I find this really interesting because this pollution, the
pollution from Kodak, is continuing to happen, you know, in
the fifties, in the sixties and the seventies, and the
(05:40):
thing is like, who is even though you may be
living in the area, you're not working there, but you're
still receiving the pollution. It's not like suddenly beginning in
the nineteen sixties, like the first black residents move into Rochester.
They had been living there for many, many years prior
the you know, being impacted by the pollution. Yeah, they
were really not many jobs for them, which goes to
(06:02):
show that sometimes the company may be coming in, but
in environment of situations where you're being promised to the jobs,
the communities being promised to jobs, but only certain groups
of people are being offered the jobs. Maybe people who
are of a certain you know, demographic, or who know
live a certain additions far away from the city, so
they're not you know, seeing the day to day impact
(06:24):
of their job. But in Rochester we see people grant you,
we do see more integration following the nineteen sixties, but
people are still being heavily impacted by a pollution even
though they don't necessarily get all the benefits from Kodak.
And even I would say, even even after the late
nineteen sixties, where Kodaks ought to do a bit of
a better job of integration, we don't see that Kodak,
(06:47):
as you know, planed off its ratio and oppressive history.
For example, in nineteen ninety six, Kodak finally came to
an agreement with both you know, black workers and also
female workers as well, and they said that, okay, we're
going to pay you guys more and pay you guys
in back wages, because essentially they were not paying these
(07:09):
two groups what they should have been paying them, especially
compared to you know, the white male counterparts. They were
not giving them the promotions they deserve. You might think, oh,
nineteen sixty ninety six, anything's fixed, everything's you know, all
disparities are you know, pretty much taken care of, but
not there anymore. But then you know, in two thousand
and nine we see actually two different class action lawsuits
(07:32):
are finally you know settled. One came from two thousand
and four. The other came from two thousand and seven,
and code LIKECT agree to pay twenty one point eight
million dollars to basically these groups of black workers who said, hey,
we are not being paid the same as our white
counter parks, and we're being neglected for these promotions as well.
(07:53):
So we also see, unfortunately in code accessory also racism
as well. However, as you know, you shouldn't do just
not care what you know color, it just cares where
you live. And then you depleted that way. And we
know that also a lot of people, especially after due
to white flight and things like that, that people who
are living around Kodak tend to you know, be be
(08:15):
non white. And yet here they are still suffering from
the vast majority of the pollution. Yet they're not being
you know, employed fairly and they're not being paid fairly either.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
That is interesting, So we got to talk about that
a little bit more. The first thing I want to
bring up is the idea that when Kodak comes, as
it grows, as it becomes one of the biggest employers
in Rochester, it is not actually employing the people who
live near the theocently most impacted because in a lot
(08:48):
of discussions. That's usually what people assume will take place.
If you live close, if you're nearby, you would be
kind of first in line to be able to work
and benefit from them being there. But that doesn't seem
to be the case, at least early on when Kodak
was running and running well, and so that is really
(09:09):
I guess it's not shocking, but it still surprises me
that even with all of that, the racism, the sexism
prevails and the employment workforce still remains very homogeneous as
far as those riots go. Do you how much do
(09:30):
you know about those riots? Was there a lot of
tension in Rochester the city? Was it just kind of
spillover from other parts of the country. Everybody's kind of
rising up and demanding their rights. What do you know
about what was going on during that time in Rochester
when these riots took place?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
From my understanding where I was going on to these
riots places, people assumed that everything was, you know, all
well and good in Rochester, and then people essentially essentially
joining a large and being like, no, not all is
well and good. Are you know, all white city council members,
Not everything is well and good, and we want you
to listen to us about like one hundred or two
(10:09):
hundred people took place in these riots. They weren't like
like you know, burned down the buildings or anything, but
they got people's attention, and there was also a lot
of community work that happened. So it's more like, you know,
I would say, like the explosion of like anger that
we have been treated for so long. Because also like
we also understand that like screaming at your face for
(10:31):
hours and years and won't get anything. We want to have,
you know, agreements, and it's a code that came to
an agreement with them. At first it actually wasn't honored
all that well, and then they tried again, and then
it's probably started to be happening on the employment workfront.
To be honest, I do not know like all the
details about like who was involved, because they can get
historical newspapers oftentimes the bias upon what they report, and
(10:56):
so like I'm looking at like you know, the local
Democrat and Chronicles, the local news paper, there's not doodles
of stuff on it. In addition, also unfortunately it's like
sixty years ago. Some things have been lost to time
because there wasn't digital papers back then. Just some stories
have you know now been digitalized today. So I wish
(11:17):
I could give more like like information about like who,
like what exactly their motives were, what they wanted exactly.
We can we know some of what they wanted. They
wanted integration, they wanted, you know, better opportunities for their children,
they wanted more access to jobs. But they equal rights.
(11:38):
Essentially we know this, but like we don't know all
the details, which is I think really really sad and
a test them into like more historical work needs to
be done. But I don't want to like be on
this podcast giving up wrong information either.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, no, don't do that. No, we don't need that
at all. I appreciate that. Obviously, we know about the
civil rights movement in the sixties, the civil rights gets
pass or rights gets passed, fairhousing gets passed, lots of
things happen to kind of shift the ways in which minorities, women,
other martialis communities are being treated. But even still from
(12:13):
that point in the sixties to nineteen ninety six and
then two thousand and nine, which is not that long ago,
they're still paying out these settlements. They're still dealing with
lawsuits they're still dealing with this legacy not just of
environmental injustice, but racial injustice and gender inequality and all
these different things. And then they go bankrupt. And so
(12:39):
when they go bankrupt, what does that do? Because I
would imagine people are suing and people are trying to
get restitution because they know that clus going to be
here for a while. We want to get ourselves in
the right position to be able to have these opportunities
because when they go bankrupt, is all that loss Now
is everything that we've been fighting for and working towards
(13:01):
in this community no longer available. What happens to the
people once Kodak is no longer functioning operationally in the city.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, So the good news is those who you know,
got those those class action lawsuits rooted in favor of them,
They still got their money. But the issue is is
because it was paid out pretty much my understanding kind
of like at one time, essentially it wasn't like you, no,
here's a million, here, here's a million there. So that
is the good news. The issue is, though you lost
(13:33):
your job probably three years later and now you're on
the search for a new job. And then also just
like Kodak, had done a lot of agreements with like
extra Tireese people who used to work there, that you
know that they would be essentially provided for life. You know,
you did your service, now you know, here's here's your
benefit kind of thing. And they said, you know, health
(13:54):
care benefits, you get your pensions. All that was just
basically ripped away from everybody saying we are not legally
the drudge is not rude that we have to pay
out these pensions. In fact, the judge said the exact opposite.
I said, please actually cancel it, because this is too
much for you know, your bankruptcy corps. You guys got
to like shed some money somewhere, so please like actually
(14:15):
suggested getting me to the pensions in Kodec, I would
perhaps happily a bliged saying, oh we can you know,
shave off all these millions of dollars. And that's that's
what they did obviously for you know, except action lawsuit.
The guy says, you're gonna pay it, so they did.
And we see also like retiring is okay? Maybe I
(14:36):
retired from Kodak, say ten years ago, I did my
thirty years of service, and now I'm like, well I'm
maybe you didn't have you know, one of those you know,
savings accounts or one of those are timement accounts. Now
what do you have to do? You got to go
back to work. And then the issue is oftentimes you
are in uh, you know, employed in film. Kodak was
(14:58):
the big really only film game in time. So now
your skills essentially are not you know, being catered to.
You might need to get new skills. Not any time that,
like any organization goes bankrupt, there's a huge concern about
you know, unemployment of course, but then also like concerns
regarding into like standards of living because if you you know,
(15:19):
don't have money, maybe you can't afford to pay your rent,
pay your chary and support bio's food upkeep, and then
that could lead to like you know, degragation, which is unfortunate,
and then you could be like forced out of your home,
you know, evicted, You could lose you could use your
mortgage because you no longer have these like concrete money
coming in and act really concern any time that with
(15:42):
any organization that is so far reaching. Its CODAC was
when they go bankrupt, Like the academic term is like densualization,
so that that's been happening around the United States as
we you know, shift more manufacturing either to overseas. The
things are going out of uh going going bankrupt. But
it's the thing that who is suffering. You know, the
(16:05):
company obviously, you know, suffers itself when it goes bankrupt,
but the lasting impact is on people and often these people.
You know, we live in a capitalist society. You need
you need money to you know, survive, and these people
now need to go find another job. And oftentimes, I mean,
if you already works thirty years, we can make some
(16:26):
assumptions about you that you know, you're over the hair
words they say, you're at least you're over fifty. And
as a result, sometimes it can be hard to pick
up a new skill and especially like that's also like
unfortunately age discrimination as well, being like well, you want
to retire anyway, so why would I hire you kind
of thing. And it's it's an unfortunate thing that these
(16:49):
jobs and these people were suffering as a result of
code bankruptcy because those promises of you know, pensions and
health care insurance vanished.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Wow, so Kodak goes to bankrupt, obviously you lose your job.
But if you were already retired, and you already had
an agreement. You lost that pension, and so now you
have no income whatsoever coming in. All you've ever done
was work at Kodak. All the skills that you've gained
(17:21):
were from Kodak, presumably to work for Kodak, not for
anyone else. And so you have these You could have
these potential retirees in their sixties and seventies back on
the job market trying to get a new skill, get
a new job, and convince someone to hire them to
(17:43):
work for them, even after they've retired after working for
forty thirty forty years at Kodak. I mean that just
that is just a horrible situation to be in. And
I can't imagine what that competitions like when you're back
in school, when you're back in the classroom, when you're
(18:04):
trying to interview with a potential employer and you're sixty
eight and we all know that you're coming out of
retirement because Kodak went out of business and cut your pension,
and so what kind of well, are there any services,
(18:26):
any kind of programs or organizations or you know, any
infrastructure in place to help people who dealt with Kodak
and their bankruptcy and their job loss and their pension loss,
recover and move forward, or everybody just on their own.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Definitely is infrastructure out there. So for example, when my
mom got laid off, she wasn't from Kodak, but it
during the similar time as when Kodak went bankrupt. She
you know, wanted to heart about its organization for a friend.
It's called like Rochester Works. It's funded by the county
some type of organizations as well, and they do different
things like how to make a resume, its skills training
(19:09):
such as that. There's of course other services that are
not free. I mean you can have to go online
and find lots of like pay me like thousands of
dollars and I'll make you like the prettiest resume ever.
I'll teach you you know, your personal branding, that sort
of thing. But the thing is like when your funding
is just being cut, you really can't be affording often
to you know, be shelling out the one k to
(19:30):
like help your next job. You need free services. And
the thing is Rochester does have them, and I think
that's great. The issue is, I would say they're very
well like perhaps you know. They're hidden gems in the
sense that like you have to know that it's there,
and you have to know the X looking about like
the won't even in my mom knew about it is
because whenever other coworkers happen to find about it, find
(19:52):
out about it. And don't get me wrong, water and
Mouth is very like powerful, but like you don't like
see like advertisings on the TV or anything. You just
have to like know X called this. You have to
like go to this website. It's the government website. Of
course it's are there, but very confusing and looking often,
and you have to know what services you're looking for.
And sometimes you're coming in retirement, you may not know
(20:13):
exactly what you need. So maybe like, oh, okay a resume,
Well what exactly should my resume have on it? Or
how much detail should I give? Or even things as
simple as like, well do do I need to know
build me a LinkedIn or something? Do I need to
do these other job searching things? What about different you know,
imployment portals? What do what should I be on? Indeed?
(20:35):
Should I be on a monitor? Should I be on
ZIP recruiter? Should I be on you know, insert recruiter
website here, and I think people often need to know.
Sometimes you just saying you don't know what you don't know,
and if you don't know exactly what you need, it
to be hard to get the help that you need.
I think if you get your foot in the door,
it's very helpful for these services can help you. But
(20:56):
it's also keep in mind a lot of these services
offer their services during the work day, so when you're
taking advantage of these services, you can't be saying, perhaps
they're interviewing for another job during the work day, So
there are you know, balances as well. It is nice
that it's during the work day because say maybe you
have a kid who you know, your kids going to school,
you can do it then. But it's often it depends.
(21:20):
So I would say yes, but the advertising could be
a bit better, I would argue.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, no, I understand. I mean you got to get
the word out. People have to know about it, engage
the service. They need to be supported financially. All those
things are important. One last question for you before we
wrap a this discussion. A lot of industries, especially very
large ones, usually when they come into town, they're coming
(21:50):
in they provide these services. They provide these goods, and
you have support industries around them, right, So they supply
material to that big industry for the industry to function,
and people get work off of that industry, right. So
we call it the industrial complex where all of these
different companies are coming because the big company benefits from
(22:14):
having them around to provide the things that they need
to function well. And then that kind of creates an
even larger scale economy within that city. I wonder if
when Kodak went, did anybody else have to go with
them as far as going bankrupt and not being able
to support themselves because they were here for Kodak, Or
was Kodak kind of a singular entity and once it
(22:37):
was bankrupt, that was that.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
So because one thing about Kodak, it was very much
like a soup to knocks kind of situation. So they
get a lot of their own building. So of course
there are suppliers as well that obviously would have suffered
from the loss of Kodak. But these suppliers, I would argue,
knew about Kodak's demise coming, so they had also found
other suppliers as well, So it's not like Kodak left,
(23:01):
I would say, with office other like Giant manufacturer or
this giant other supplier as well that was like reliant
on Kodak's being present. I would say maybe some of them,
the kisten like their important in the community, but I
wouldn't say that they you know, vanished all around.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Okay okay. So and then when Kodak okay, I guess
another question, when Kodak left because they went bankrupt, are
you aware of any major changes to the way the
city functioned beyond the rising employment? Right, so, the Kodak
(23:39):
fund a lot of things that the city did that
they no longer could do anymore because they were relying
on Kodak for the money. Were there certain attractions or
certain types of you know, entertainment venues or restaurant parts
of the town that relied on a lot of the
business that came from that struggled when they went bankrupt.
(24:04):
Did the city change a lot when that happened, or
where we're just trying to move forward and get through
working again, I.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Would say the city the city did change in a
sense that some areas became less important. And then we
also see that like when you lose your job, some
areas fall into you know, repair the disrepair, and then
we see that these areas unfortunately become labeled as like
the bad neighborhood is essentially and now quote unquote bad
(24:34):
neighborhoods are now trying to be you know, gentrified for
these new and upcoming sources. Kodak also had a big
part to play in the arts. Arts. Their Kodec Center
is actually still running. I'm not sure where that here's
funding from, but you know, you know, you still have
major artists that go there for shows and for example,
some schools graduations even happened to occurve there. So there
(24:57):
is there is still running, but it's not as great
as it used to be. In addition, just like the
area around Kodak there used to be you know, more restaurants,
more shops, and now it's more like roads and stuff
like that, and it's just like there's just less academic
activity everything now that we can like sprawl out. It's
kind of like the center has died, lets continue to
spread outwards. And then regarding scholarships, especially for you know,
(25:23):
like uh, you know, college students, a lot of those
scholarships were Kodak funded scholarships that helped them students get
through college or through technical school. Some of them, in
a sense still kind of do exist because you got
like people who are like still funding them, like individual donors,
because you know that's makes an impact down their life too,
don't want to give back sort of thing. But unfortunately
(25:44):
a lot of that funding one away. And it's also
very sad considering that a lot of these workers are
only who you know, there were tires, They were only
trained in film. They want to go back into like
a more skilled trade, they have to get more education,
and education costs money, so it means that the skills
is also people kindent is being hammered down from numerous ways.
(26:05):
They needed skills training. But maybe it's just affordable that
it could have been, because Kodak is no longer waiting
to like even like give a few thousand dollars in
some places.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Oh man okay, I was wondering about that. So it
seems like, and it's clear to me at least from
this conversation, that Kodak worked really hard to be a
big part of the community, and it actually became that
to such a degree that once it went bankrupt, so
much of the community, so much of Rochester as a
(26:39):
city had to make some major adjustments to deal with
their departure. And so it's just another you know, lesson
for us, right, It's another way of understanding what it
looks like to be so tied to an industry, so
(27:00):
tied to a very particular organization, and what it can
look like when that orgitation no longer it's present. We
see the same thing in the auto industry. I'm wondering
even if the tech industry will see some of this
soon when some of these larger corporations, larger entities maybe
start shifting their operations, start doing things differently, how that
(27:20):
affect those towns that they're in that people were so
excited to have them present? What will that do? And
so this was a very good conversation. I'm really glad
you were able to share so much about what Kodak
did in the community, what happened when they went bankrupt,
and what the residents did to recover from all of
(27:42):
that has been very good. Is there anything else we
need to know? Anything at all? Tell me?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
I would just say, like, the thing is like, even
though Kodak went with a giant gaping hole, you know
she an innovation? Is there? There are startups, there are
tech ventures, and the city is economically diversifying, I would say,
and there is still life and light in that city.
I know oftentimes you might think the city's dead, it's
beyond cause, but no, it's not. There is still life
(28:09):
in that city. There is still people who we should
be caring about their potentials and their futures. We need
to be, you know, supporting these people how we possibly
can be supporting them, and whether that be you know,
even helping the youth. It just hasn't necessarily be like, oh,
only the Kodak former retirees. No, there's a there's a
generational cycle here that we often need to be aware of.
(28:31):
We need that, you know, we're helping the younger generation
who one day they'll be born after you know, the thinkers,
the codect you know, making sure that they you know,
get their high school diplomas, the GEDs, that there's you know,
flexible degree degree oftens for them and that's the route
they want to go, and that they can have skills
that aren't just honed into one industry or that can
be a broadly applied to a variety of different trades
(28:55):
and industries and potential futures for them. They're not putting
all their you know cards in one basket essentially. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
No, that's good. That's well said. It's well said. So Savannah,
thank you so much for this insight, thank you for
this history lesson, and for giving us a bigger, broader
understanding of what the economics look like when this kind
of facility comes and settles into your city. So I
(29:23):
really really appreciate it, and the listeners appreciate it. Thank
you so much for being with us honest episode today.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yes, thank you for being here. And that is another
episode of the Environmental Justice Lab, where we are for
the people and for the planet. We will see you
next time.
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