April 29, 2025 • 29 mins
In the conclusion to this series, our special guest Savannah Domenech and I take a reflective look back at their deep dive into Rochester’s legacy of environmental injustice. Throughout this series, we explored how Kodak’s rise and fall left deep economic, environmental, and public health scars on the Rochester community. In this episode, Savannah shares personal stories, research insights, and the powerful realization that even lifelong residents often don't know the full extent of the damage. We discuss why legacy environmental injustice doesn't end when a company closes its doors - and why community awareness, activism, and healing must continue. From environmental pollution to gentrification, the conversation reminds us that true justice requires confronting the past and committing to building a better future. We urge all of you listening to dig into your own local histories, connect with your neighbors, and advocate for change - because the fight for clean, safe, and equitable communities impacts everyone.
🎧 Tune in for a conversation that will leave you informed, inspired, and ready to act. The journey doesn’t end here - it’s just the beginning.
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
🎧 Tune in for a conversation that will leave you informed, inspired, and ready to act. The journey doesn’t end here - it’s just the beginning.
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab Podcast. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you for joining us because once
again we have Savannah with us. We're talking about legacy
environmental injustice. Savannah, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
How do you want a? Okay, I think today and yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I'm doing well. So the weather's better. The semesters getting
close to an end, so all of us professors out there,
you know, we love our students, but it's nice when
they're not around to kind of relax and think about
other things. And so I'm excited about that coming up.
(01:03):
What about you, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I'm doing good, looking forward to graduation. Literally, my school
set me there on you have thirty days to graduation
just a few days ago, so they're counting down the days.
I'm not. I have things to do in the meantime.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Very nice, Very nice. Well, you know, we spent a
lot of time on the podcast, I think all years
up to this point talking about legacy environmental injustice, and
we have reached our conclusion right the season, the series
finale of Legacy Environmental in Justice, and so we've covered
(01:38):
lots of ground for those of you just tuning in.
For the first time. Go back into the archives. There's
lots of great episodes about the different things we discussed
regarding legacy environmental in justice. Things up like the economic
impacts of what you might see within legacy environmental justice.
We focused on Kodak specifically as that facility, that industry
(02:02):
that really had a mark on Rochester, New York and
what its impact was environmentally, economically, health wise. We talked
about gentrification, so many different things, and so I wonder
for you, Savannah, if anything stood out to you. I
know you you're from Rochester, you've lived there, but I imagine
with the research, with all the work you've done to
(02:25):
kind of understand these impacts in this legacy environmental and
just that you've witnessed, I wonder if anything that we've
talked about or what you've learned may have stood out
to you during this whole time.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, definitely. I think one thing that has stood out
to me is just how much this information is just
not known, not out there, very thin. For my mom
listens to our podcast, shout out to mom, my, Karen,
my mom, And if you talked to me like well
as you and I had no idea about all you know,
the environmental injustice that could got perpetrated is still in
(03:00):
a sense continuing to perpetrate. I had no idea about
you know, the elementary school. I had know they got
the pipein s. I had knowing people at all these
things like I have. And she's lived there for over
almost thirty years now, and she had she had no idea.
And I think this goes to show that despite you
perhaps living in this community, you don't realize what is
(03:22):
you know, being perpetrated in this community unless we start
looking for it, because we've don't we Maybe not we,
but maybe they have done a really good job trying
to cover up their you know, their crimes of the
past and their crimes of perpetuality that continue today. But
I think that's one thing that could really stuck out
to me in just for me my personal interests as well.
(03:44):
I'm I'm really interested in environmental pollution, particularly in an
ethect of environmental justice, and not and not saying that like,
you know, the issues with health care and jobs and
economic concerns are identification are not in because they definitely are.
It's just my passion, you know, more lives and like
the uh, the natural resources side of things, the water
(04:06):
resourcers side of things. So for me, like I was
just I was just like I want to say, I
loved learning about all the environment their homes because you
can't you can't you know, you should be disgusted by that.
But like I found that I keep my interest in
most out like WHOA, not that this is amazing, but wow,
it's just like wow, I keep this exactly happening in
my very own backyard. You I guess that would be
(04:28):
what has stood out to me the most about this
as well. Just like the fact that we were able
to record so many episodes on this as well, I
just find that to be maybe not shocking, but like
surprising is how much like there's to be said about
this issue. And CODEC doesn't just pertain to you know,
the environmental stuff, but also it touches to every single
facet of life, even if we don't really realize it.
(04:52):
I know, like for example, like our last episode of Gentrification,
it wasn't very kodact heavy, but we can still see
how Kodak in the past through it was like racial
they helped lay the foundation for the station's vacation of
the future, and it's it's all connected. I think that's
shoes takeaway from what I've learned. There's information out there.
(05:13):
You have to be through some archives and some really
old newspapers, but it's there.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder, like, have you been talking
to your mom about the content, like, as we've been
releasing it, have you had discussions? What has that been
like to kind of engage your mom with these kinds
of topics and to discuss these kinds of impacts knowing
that she lives there and could presumably be currently impacted
by them.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I got to be honest with you, sometimes I'm like, Mom,
you're listening to me.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Oh that's extreme.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
But our conversations do pretty much amount to like she
she enjoys learning about it, and I don't, well, I
don't see my mom, you know, taking action for these issues,
to be quite honest with you, but they just the
knowledge is that, I think the first step, because before
you take acting, you gotta take knowledge, and I think
this is really be helping you to do that. I
(06:07):
also just like this surprise as well, and she was
talking to me about she was like, oh, we know
so and so he died of brain cancer. I wonder
if that's why you know, he got brain cancer or
so and so you know had stomach cancer, and I
know that like their parents worked for CODE. Like she
can't like obviously be like you know, cause effect, but
it's like it made her think and be like, like
(06:29):
all these people that I've known who have you know,
are suffering these terrible physical elements. It's like, well, maybe
maybe this is why. And I never would she never
don't think you ever would have you know, connected those
gaps if it wasn't for that podcast. And then also
like while she's familiar with like all like the job
loss and such, also seeing that like it continues as
(06:50):
like more and more like industries start to you know,
uh essentially like trades out of Rochester as well, and
seeing that if this is not like a new phenomena
that this is, this is continuing and going back into
the past, and even they're looking at history to see
to see that as well. I think that's what we've
talked about, is that you know, these connections with people
that we personally know, because when you have a personal
(07:12):
story makes a lot more impact of and just being
like there's many people who are affected this way, but
when you like it's your friend. You care about your friend.
I think it's even all about you know, economic impacts
as well about oh that this is, this is this
is long agoing, it's and it's I don't think, unfortunately
that it's gonna It did not end with Kodak. It's
(07:35):
not going to own the current companies. It just it
just keeps going, I believe.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
No, No, that's a good point. And actually thinking about
the history of Kodak and what happened throughout its history
and up until the present day, how that impact has
resulted in what people are experiencing in Rochester is a
good lesson to learn when it comes to evaluating new
industry or new operations that come into the city, because
(07:58):
now you have at least some understanding of what could
be taking place if you now see, oh, well we
had Kodak here. This is what Kodak did. This is
how it grew, this is how it impacted our society,
our community. This is what happened when it went bankrupt
and went under, and when it things closed. If somebody
else comes and just reopens that same facility, that same
(08:21):
factory and resumes similar operations, well now we have an
idea of what we could be re experiencing again, which
is something that would be helpful to know, particularly for
someone like your mom or anyone else listening who may
not be aware of what happened the last time, didn't
know the history, and now when they see what's coming,
(08:44):
when they see things change around, and when they see
people getting sick. Huh. I wonder if that's related to
these operations, because it appeared to be related to it
in the past with Kodak. So that's pretty exciting, and
so I'm just thrilled that this education, this understanding, these facts,
(09:07):
this information is getting out and people are hearing it, learning,
engaging it, thinking through now hmm. I wonder if these
things were connected, if these dots do go together, and
kind of reimagining how they understand what's happening in their communities.
(09:28):
So that's very exciting. I know for me personally, it
was great to hear you, someone from Rochester talk about
a city with your personal understanding, your background and your history.
I do a lot of reading and a lot of
documentary watching, and so I don't get a chance to
really talk to someone directly, so it's been great to
(09:50):
hear you talk about it and I was surprised at
how thoroughly intertwined Kodak was with Rochester. You know, it
reminded me of I'm a big Marvel fan. I love
Marvel movies. It reminded me of venom. So I don't
know if you know venom. Venom is a symbiotist, like
(10:10):
this parasitic kind of being and inhabits a human and
it kind of takes over the person's body, gives them
superhuman strength and power, and they fight, but as it's
a mind of its own and it kind of controls
what's going on around it. And made me think about
that a little bit. I said, you know, the person
(10:30):
who has that venom on them feels strong and powerful
and feels capable beyond what they could by themselves. But
they also are subject to the whims and the attitude
and the approach of that being. And so I wonder
(10:54):
if Kodak had that same kind of influence. Where we
appreciate the jobs. You even said it great jobs, great benefits,
investment into the community. The university itself got lots of
funding from there. I'm sure people, politicians, other local businesses
benefited from their presence there, But the impact the pollution,
(11:16):
the damage, I mean, it was extensive and very destructive.
And so I took that away and I said, you know,
buy or beware, and be you know, fully engaged with
what could be coming if you find yourself in a city,
(11:37):
in a place where these kinds of facilities and industries
are located and operating, particularly at full capacity. So I
took that from there from our discussion. And so if
anybody listening, go back and listen to all of them.
They're great conversations, great information, just a great discussion about
(11:59):
code in Rochester and all those impacts that come along
with it. And so as we look forward now think
about legacy environmental justice, what are some of the things
that you think we need to take away from all
these discussions, from all this conversation with regards to it.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I think one thing to take away to begin with
is that obviously everything go town, city, village looks a
little different when it comes to legacy environmental injustice. Some
sometimes might have a more concerned with for example, is
there like appropriate infrastructure investment or the bridges being maintained.
(12:41):
Others it might be more like can we get like
clean drinking water? So others it might be are you know,
family structures in the sense that like people have you know,
safe places that they can turn to whether they're not
being relatives, biological or not. Is that being maintained as
well it you know, it's poverty more of a concern
(13:02):
in some of these areas. Every single place is different ultimately,
and while we can look at Rochester and point out
like these different topics like we've done in the past,
your hometown, your city may not have the same mode
to fit into. This isn't exactly like a mode that
you're you know, your legacy environmental industries where you live
(13:22):
needs to fit into. But rather it's more of them
a structury blob, if you will, and that blob can
be adapted to fit new other categories that legacy environmental
injustice would be impacting and causing to create. I would
also say that legacy environmental injustice, you know, is still injustice,
but I would argue that it is a step in
(13:44):
the right direction. I don't want our listeners to be like, oh,
it's you know, we get rid of this, you know,
this terrible polluting industry, this terrible polluting plant, that everything's
going to be worse now. I don't know your exact situation,
but I would like to hope that, like you know,
they're not actively polluting as much, but there are still
(14:05):
you know, those those crimes of the past that need
to be you know, fixed and remedied and drought to light.
So I wouldn't I want to be like, no, don't
stop the plant. The plant must keep admitting. No, no,
get rid of the plan. But understanding that you're just
opening perhaps a new chapter in that book that is
(14:27):
environmental injustice and environmental racism as a whole. It's just
you know, part two if you will, or part three,
depending on the community. And then I would also say
there's many ways to combat legacy environmental injustice. Perhaps you
are more ingrained in your community. You have all these partnerships,
(14:49):
these resources, you know people, that's great. Use that to
your advantage to let your you know, your city council,
know your presentative know about what is important to you.
I know it's a sense that it's like, oh, my
REPIGIONA doesn't want to hear what I have to say.
They're supposed to the pay to do that. Now, some
of them grant you on more listening than others. But
(15:11):
you have or have a protest, raise awareness, have like
you know, an hour of action, call a day of action.
Have you in calls about this. If nobody knows your passion,
nobody's gonna like probably be reaching out to you to
be like, hey, do you want to like talk about this,
Like for example, you never would have reached out to
me and be like Savannah, a person who have never
(15:31):
ever met before, who attends school in a totally from
the state, do you want to do a series on
your hometown about this issue? No, I had to bring
it up. I had prepared the content and such. And
with that being said, there's also of a sense of
like another avenue to pursue, like at the environment in
justice is going back to like, for example, my mom.
In that case, people may not know about it that much.
(15:53):
You might know some basics. You might know, oh we
lost a lot of jobs. Oh yeah, we can't. We
have an idea that they needed because you know, they were,
you know, making stuff that we know pollute. But you
tend to realize how bad it was, how perversive it was,
how extreme it was until you start I feel like
looking into things. I guess that is what I would say.
(16:14):
And the town often look into it. I'm there's probably
there's there's some stretching in your closet branding. Also that
your town was founded, like last year even Stille, that
land belonged to somebody before your time was founded, and
there's probably something in there that nobody wants to be
brought to light, living or otherwise.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah, No, that's great, that's great. I mean, I would
also say part of why we even did this series
was because we wanted people to understand and even I
know more clearly now that the closure and the shuddering
of a facility doesn't automatically mean that the harm or
the damage won't continue or you won't experience anything once
(16:57):
that's been done, and so it is important to recordognize that, hey,
we've done a heavy lift to either get this plant
to relocate or to cease operations, or to reduce their
emissions or to reduce their pollution, but there is still
work to be done to make sure that you're still
protected from any potential contamination that you were experiencing or
(17:20):
that you are currently going to experience that sitting either
in the water supply, in the soil, in the air
that hasn't been resolved although the operations themselves may have ceased,
and so it is important to continue to have that
conversation and recognize that so you're not left believing wrongly
(17:42):
that everything is fine. Now they're gone, it's shut down.
I don't see the building there anymore. Everything is great.
Finally we're done, you know, and then you move on.
There is some residual, there is a legacy, There is
environmental insice that still takes place. Right. The idea of
(18:04):
being compensated for your you know, harm, The idea of
getting health care that takes care of you from what
you've experienced while they were operating, that needs to be
a conversation, right. The idea that you know, you're trying
to re establish your communities that may have been impacted
(18:26):
by these facilities, that has to be a conversation because
somebody has to pay for it. Somebody has to help
you rebuild what you've lost. Someone has to invest in
where you are to ensure that you have a community
that's safe and healthy. All that needs to happen even
after the facility has gone. And so, I mean, Savannah,
(18:49):
you're absolutely right. I mean, these are the things we
have to talk about and really think through and every
community is different. Every community has its own set of concerns,
its own way of addressing issues. We need to get
engaged and understand that, and at the very least bring
awareness to people around us, because just like Savanna's mom
(19:11):
or my parents or anyone else, they wouldn't just know
these things. Right. You sent me an email. I read
through it and I said, this is something I didn't
know about. Let's have the conversation. And that one conversation
turned into seven. But I'm glad we had it. And
so these are all amazing, great things that we need
(19:35):
to really be aware of and continue to push for
because I do believe that there is a path towards
a cleaner, healthier, safer community for everyone, regardless of the
history of your town or city or even state. So
thank you for sharing all those things. You know how
(19:59):
we always do this, Give me something else, anything else
it's on your mind, on your heart that you just
came to your head the second ago while I was talking,
because we all want to hear what you think, how
you feel, and what we should do about all this.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I guess how I think and feel is that, yes,
we've made a lot of you know, headway in you know,
this past seven episode of this podcast series, as you mentioned,
but there's still a lot more headway to be made,
Like there are programs to be started, there's still pollution
to clean up, there's more awareness to be raised, there's
(20:38):
communities to be you know, empowered and to be listened to.
And the fight you know, to get rid of CODEAC
is still continuing, like like you mentioned, and I don't
think they should dishearten us in a sense that I
feel like it's something it can be like, you know,
(20:58):
we had such a big victim and now it's like
now you have another victory. It is it is heartening
in a sense that progress is being made towards you know,
a more justice enable earth. But let us you know,
not as we be disheartened by the fact that there
is still all these issues. And even still even if
our town by, you know, by some awesome chance, happens
(21:22):
to be you know, wad of all the pollution. You know,
jobs are invested in, healthcare is invested in people who
were impacted receive the care that they need for free
or for at least a very very very reduced price.
There's still other towns that needs to return in as well.
And there's other towns that you know I mentioned earlier,
(21:44):
like part two or part three, could we environmental injustice legacy,
environmental injustice. Well, some towns are still on part one,
and we need to help to make sure that those
parts those towns can get to the next part in
their chapter away from those polluting industries and facilities and
you know, essentially war mongering, abusive industries that don't really
(22:06):
care about the people, they care about their profits, and
the sense that this is this is a battle for
all of us. And I guess I would say, like
I've always said, I don't want to feel like I'm
being redundant, but alas I'm going to be learn more
about justice in your hometown if possible. Make a friend
(22:28):
with your local librarian if you have one. I'm sure
they would love to help you conduct some research. Not
everything has been digitized nowadays, but a lot of good
things are in the archives waiting to be discovered. Similarly,
learn how I mean, I'm just gonna teach you how
to do you know, online research. Also talk with other
people as well. You will not know a lot of
the personal stores about being like, oh, you know, let
(22:51):
me go connect with my neighbor, that person who I
work with the same job as me. Oh, that person's
a supermarket. They can't meet people. Part of the reason
that any kind of environmental justice is so damaging is
because it's not just hurting the earth, it's also hurting people.
So we need to make sure that we're investing in
people and that we can what people are saying. And yes,
(23:13):
a newspaper can tell us what somebody's saying, we also
want to hear about what is you know, someone who's
actually in our life saying as well these changes that
person who wrote the newspaper is you know, it's even
many many years ago, maybe they've moved out of the town.
Because there is somebody right in front of you who
you should be caring about. We should all be, you know,
be caring for our communities and that involves the people
(23:33):
in them. And I would encourage you also to share
what you know of others. I think there's a sense
that it's like there's a sense it's like I don't
want to speak against this industry because you never know
who's listening, or it's like it's not gonna make a
big difference. Don't let it be like you know that
they don't see like the two taboo topics like politics
and religion. Don't let it be like that. Talk about
(23:54):
find a way to say it to somebody that you
know it won't like roughly ifevers that somebody complete show.
But if you like introduce things being like I really
care about clean water because they also care about clean water.
We all care about clean water to an extent, and
then being like, but I learned this is impacting all water,
and then bringing into the conversation that way, there's back
(24:16):
doors you can take to those hard conversations where people
you know, perhaps you do not want to hear about
the fact that there is injustice pertaining to racism and sexism,
and you know where you're from all these things. But
if you can get in another side door, you can, essentially,
(24:37):
I would say, help to expand their universe about what
is going on in the community and not only why
it impacts the neighbors, but how it also impacts them
without them being all like, oh, you're liberal away from me,
but we need dialogue, and dialogue is really really important,
constructive dialogue, dialogue that that's also insult.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yes, yes, I like that dialogue that is informed, that
has true facts and information that we can use to
make things better. And I love the point you made
that it's affecting all of us, because we do spend
a lot of time kind of highlighting the disparities and
disproportioned impacts. And it's true, and that happens. But the
(25:23):
idea isn't that, oh, I'm only helping those individuals who
are disproportionately impacted. You're helping everyone. We all benefit from
each of us living in a healthier, safe, for cleaner community.
We all benefit from reducing pollution, we all benefit from
reducing contamination and exposure to contamination and those kinds of things.
(25:44):
And so it's really important to keep that in mind
if you're having these conversations, this dialogue, as Savannah said,
if you're informing yourself, if you're learning about these issues,
just know that that work will help everyone all around you,
everyone in your community, everyone in your city, of your town,
not just the one side of town that's experiencing the
(26:07):
disproportionate impacts, or not just one community, not just one
group of people, not just one zip code. It's all
of us who benefit from that understanding and from that
knowledge from that dialogue and ultimately from that action, and
so we are both encouraging all of you listening to
do that, to take those actions. To learn about your community,
(26:29):
learn about what's been going on from the environmental side,
of the economic side, the health sides. Talk to your
neighbors and friends, talk to your local people, right your librarians,
your law enforcement officers, teachers, people who've been there for
twenty thirty, forty fifty years. They know and they've seen
experience so much that can help you gain a better
(26:52):
understanding of what's been happening in that community. And so
that's what we want you to leave with. Lazy Environmental
justice is a real tangible concern, and keep fighting, keep pushing,
keep learning, and keep making the difference. Anything else, Savannah,
(27:13):
that's what you told me to do.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, No, I think you have encapsulated it perfectly.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
All right. Well, if that's the case, then Savannah, thank
you so much. I cannot tell you how great it's
been to have you on the podcast for as long
as we've had you. This is our last episode on
this topic. You're getting ready for graduation. We know you're
going to do great things, be very impactful. Wherever you land,
(27:43):
we know it's gonna be. I'm not even gonna say
good luck because you don't need luck. You're clearly highly intelligent, motivated, smart, hardworking.
We talked about it already off air. Very hard working.
I'm telling you she works very hard people, very very hard.
And so thank you so much for being on the podcast.
And you have a home here anytime whenever you like.
(28:04):
So if you have another topic you want to discuss,
if you have some ideas that you feel like you're
not hearing enough about, hey, we can bring it here
and we can discuss it and learn together. So thank
you so much for being on a podcast with me.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And thank you for having me and you know, responding
to my initial emails, I'll thought response, none of this
would have been possible. And thank you for putting up
with me sometimes in my mad ramblings in my schedule,
and I really appreciate it. And I hope all hope
all your listeners to know how awesome that you are
and how you know why you are and how cool
(28:42):
you are too, well.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Well, thank you, thank you, I appreciate it. And with that,
this has been another episode of the Environmental Justice Lab
where we are for the people and for the planet.
We'll see you next time. Oh,
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab Podcast. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph. Thank you for joining us because once
again we have Savannah with us. We're talking about legacy
environmental injustice. Savannah, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
How do you want a? Okay, I think today and yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I'm doing well. So the weather's better. The semesters getting
close to an end, so all of us professors out there,
you know, we love our students, but it's nice when
they're not around to kind of relax and think about
other things. And so I'm excited about that coming up.
(01:03):
What about you, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I'm doing good, looking forward to graduation. Literally, my school
set me there on you have thirty days to graduation
just a few days ago, so they're counting down the days.
I'm not. I have things to do in the meantime.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Very nice, Very nice. Well, you know, we spent a
lot of time on the podcast, I think all years
up to this point talking about legacy environmental injustice, and
we have reached our conclusion right the season, the series
finale of Legacy Environmental in Justice, and so we've covered
(01:38):
lots of ground for those of you just tuning in.
For the first time. Go back into the archives. There's
lots of great episodes about the different things we discussed
regarding legacy environmental in justice. Things up like the economic
impacts of what you might see within legacy environmental justice.
We focused on Kodak specifically as that facility, that industry
(02:02):
that really had a mark on Rochester, New York and
what its impact was environmentally, economically, health wise. We talked
about gentrification, so many different things, and so I wonder
for you, Savannah, if anything stood out to you. I
know you you're from Rochester, you've lived there, but I imagine
with the research, with all the work you've done to
(02:25):
kind of understand these impacts in this legacy environmental and
just that you've witnessed, I wonder if anything that we've
talked about or what you've learned may have stood out
to you during this whole time.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, definitely. I think one thing that has stood out
to me is just how much this information is just
not known, not out there, very thin. For my mom
listens to our podcast, shout out to mom, my, Karen,
my mom, And if you talked to me like well
as you and I had no idea about all you know,
the environmental injustice that could got perpetrated is still in
(03:00):
a sense continuing to perpetrate. I had no idea about
you know, the elementary school. I had know they got
the pipein s. I had knowing people at all these
things like I have. And she's lived there for over
almost thirty years now, and she had she had no idea.
And I think this goes to show that despite you
perhaps living in this community, you don't realize what is
(03:22):
you know, being perpetrated in this community unless we start
looking for it, because we've don't we Maybe not we,
but maybe they have done a really good job trying
to cover up their you know, their crimes of the
past and their crimes of perpetuality that continue today. But
I think that's one thing that could really stuck out
to me in just for me my personal interests as well.
(03:44):
I'm I'm really interested in environmental pollution, particularly in an
ethect of environmental justice, and not and not saying that like,
you know, the issues with health care and jobs and
economic concerns are identification are not in because they definitely are.
It's just my passion, you know, more lives and like
the uh, the natural resources side of things, the water
(04:06):
resourcers side of things. So for me, like I was
just I was just like I want to say, I
loved learning about all the environment their homes because you
can't you can't you know, you should be disgusted by that.
But like I found that I keep my interest in
most out like WHOA, not that this is amazing, but wow,
it's just like wow, I keep this exactly happening in
my very own backyard. You I guess that would be
(04:28):
what has stood out to me the most about this
as well. Just like the fact that we were able
to record so many episodes on this as well, I
just find that to be maybe not shocking, but like
surprising is how much like there's to be said about
this issue. And CODEC doesn't just pertain to you know,
the environmental stuff, but also it touches to every single
facet of life, even if we don't really realize it.
(04:52):
I know, like for example, like our last episode of Gentrification,
it wasn't very kodact heavy, but we can still see
how Kodak in the past through it was like racial
they helped lay the foundation for the station's vacation of
the future, and it's it's all connected. I think that's
shoes takeaway from what I've learned. There's information out there.
(05:13):
You have to be through some archives and some really
old newspapers, but it's there.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder, like, have you been talking
to your mom about the content, like, as we've been
releasing it, have you had discussions? What has that been
like to kind of engage your mom with these kinds
of topics and to discuss these kinds of impacts knowing
that she lives there and could presumably be currently impacted
by them.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I got to be honest with you, sometimes I'm like, Mom,
you're listening to me.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Oh that's extreme.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
But our conversations do pretty much amount to like she
she enjoys learning about it, and I don't, well, I
don't see my mom, you know, taking action for these issues,
to be quite honest with you, but they just the
knowledge is that, I think the first step, because before
you take acting, you gotta take knowledge, and I think
this is really be helping you to do that. I
(06:07):
also just like this surprise as well, and she was
talking to me about she was like, oh, we know
so and so he died of brain cancer. I wonder
if that's why you know, he got brain cancer or
so and so you know had stomach cancer, and I
know that like their parents worked for CODE. Like she
can't like obviously be like you know, cause effect, but
it's like it made her think and be like, like
(06:29):
all these people that I've known who have you know,
are suffering these terrible physical elements. It's like, well, maybe
maybe this is why. And I never would she never
don't think you ever would have you know, connected those
gaps if it wasn't for that podcast. And then also
like while she's familiar with like all like the job
loss and such, also seeing that like it continues as
(06:50):
like more and more like industries start to you know,
uh essentially like trades out of Rochester as well, and
seeing that if this is not like a new phenomena
that this is, this is continuing and going back into
the past, and even they're looking at history to see
to see that as well. I think that's what we've
talked about, is that you know, these connections with people
that we personally know, because when you have a personal
(07:12):
story makes a lot more impact of and just being
like there's many people who are affected this way, but
when you like it's your friend. You care about your friend.
I think it's even all about you know, economic impacts
as well about oh that this is, this is this
is long agoing, it's and it's I don't think, unfortunately
that it's gonna It did not end with Kodak. It's
(07:35):
not going to own the current companies. It just it
just keeps going, I believe.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
No, No, that's a good point. And actually thinking about
the history of Kodak and what happened throughout its history
and up until the present day, how that impact has
resulted in what people are experiencing in Rochester is a
good lesson to learn when it comes to evaluating new
industry or new operations that come into the city, because
(07:58):
now you have at least some understanding of what could
be taking place if you now see, oh, well we
had Kodak here. This is what Kodak did. This is
how it grew, this is how it impacted our society,
our community. This is what happened when it went bankrupt
and went under, and when it things closed. If somebody
else comes and just reopens that same facility, that same
(08:21):
factory and resumes similar operations, well now we have an
idea of what we could be re experiencing again, which
is something that would be helpful to know, particularly for
someone like your mom or anyone else listening who may
not be aware of what happened the last time, didn't
know the history, and now when they see what's coming,
(08:44):
when they see things change around, and when they see
people getting sick. Huh. I wonder if that's related to
these operations, because it appeared to be related to it
in the past with Kodak. So that's pretty exciting, and
so I'm just thrilled that this education, this understanding, these facts,
(09:07):
this information is getting out and people are hearing it, learning,
engaging it, thinking through now hmm. I wonder if these
things were connected, if these dots do go together, and
kind of reimagining how they understand what's happening in their communities.
(09:28):
So that's very exciting. I know for me personally, it
was great to hear you, someone from Rochester talk about
a city with your personal understanding, your background and your history.
I do a lot of reading and a lot of
documentary watching, and so I don't get a chance to
really talk to someone directly, so it's been great to
(09:50):
hear you talk about it and I was surprised at
how thoroughly intertwined Kodak was with Rochester. You know, it
reminded me of I'm a big Marvel fan. I love
Marvel movies. It reminded me of venom. So I don't
know if you know venom. Venom is a symbiotist, like
(10:10):
this parasitic kind of being and inhabits a human and
it kind of takes over the person's body, gives them
superhuman strength and power, and they fight, but as it's
a mind of its own and it kind of controls
what's going on around it. And made me think about
that a little bit. I said, you know, the person
(10:30):
who has that venom on them feels strong and powerful
and feels capable beyond what they could by themselves. But
they also are subject to the whims and the attitude
and the approach of that being. And so I wonder
(10:54):
if Kodak had that same kind of influence. Where we
appreciate the jobs. You even said it great jobs, great benefits,
investment into the community. The university itself got lots of
funding from there. I'm sure people, politicians, other local businesses
benefited from their presence there, But the impact the pollution,
(11:16):
the damage, I mean, it was extensive and very destructive.
And so I took that away and I said, you know,
buy or beware, and be you know, fully engaged with
what could be coming if you find yourself in a city,
(11:37):
in a place where these kinds of facilities and industries
are located and operating, particularly at full capacity. So I
took that from there from our discussion. And so if
anybody listening, go back and listen to all of them.
They're great conversations, great information, just a great discussion about
(11:59):
code in Rochester and all those impacts that come along
with it. And so as we look forward now think
about legacy environmental justice, what are some of the things
that you think we need to take away from all
these discussions, from all this conversation with regards to it.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I think one thing to take away to begin with
is that obviously everything go town, city, village looks a
little different when it comes to legacy environmental injustice. Some
sometimes might have a more concerned with for example, is
there like appropriate infrastructure investment or the bridges being maintained.
(12:41):
Others it might be more like can we get like
clean drinking water? So others it might be are you know,
family structures in the sense that like people have you know,
safe places that they can turn to whether they're not
being relatives, biological or not. Is that being maintained as
well it you know, it's poverty more of a concern
(13:02):
in some of these areas. Every single place is different ultimately,
and while we can look at Rochester and point out
like these different topics like we've done in the past,
your hometown, your city may not have the same mode
to fit into. This isn't exactly like a mode that
you're you know, your legacy environmental industries where you live
(13:22):
needs to fit into. But rather it's more of them
a structury blob, if you will, and that blob can
be adapted to fit new other categories that legacy environmental
injustice would be impacting and causing to create. I would
also say that legacy environmental injustice, you know, is still injustice,
but I would argue that it is a step in
(13:44):
the right direction. I don't want our listeners to be like, oh,
it's you know, we get rid of this, you know,
this terrible polluting industry, this terrible polluting plant, that everything's
going to be worse now. I don't know your exact situation,
but I would like to hope that, like you know,
they're not actively polluting as much, but there are still
(14:05):
you know, those those crimes of the past that need
to be you know, fixed and remedied and drought to light.
So I wouldn't I want to be like, no, don't
stop the plant. The plant must keep admitting. No, no,
get rid of the plan. But understanding that you're just
opening perhaps a new chapter in that book that is
(14:27):
environmental injustice and environmental racism as a whole. It's just
you know, part two if you will, or part three,
depending on the community. And then I would also say
there's many ways to combat legacy environmental injustice. Perhaps you
are more ingrained in your community. You have all these partnerships,
(14:49):
these resources, you know people, that's great. Use that to
your advantage to let your you know, your city council,
know your presentative know about what is important to you.
I know it's a sense that it's like, oh, my
REPIGIONA doesn't want to hear what I have to say.
They're supposed to the pay to do that. Now, some
of them grant you on more listening than others. But
(15:11):
you have or have a protest, raise awareness, have like
you know, an hour of action, call a day of action.
Have you in calls about this. If nobody knows your passion,
nobody's gonna like probably be reaching out to you to
be like, hey, do you want to like talk about this,
Like for example, you never would have reached out to
me and be like Savannah, a person who have never
(15:31):
ever met before, who attends school in a totally from
the state, do you want to do a series on
your hometown about this issue? No, I had to bring
it up. I had prepared the content and such. And
with that being said, there's also of a sense of
like another avenue to pursue, like at the environment in
justice is going back to like, for example, my mom.
In that case, people may not know about it that much.
(15:53):
You might know some basics. You might know, oh we
lost a lot of jobs. Oh yeah, we can't. We
have an idea that they needed because you know, they were,
you know, making stuff that we know pollute. But you
tend to realize how bad it was, how perversive it was,
how extreme it was until you start I feel like
looking into things. I guess that is what I would say.
(16:14):
And the town often look into it. I'm there's probably
there's there's some stretching in your closet branding. Also that
your town was founded, like last year even Stille, that
land belonged to somebody before your time was founded, and
there's probably something in there that nobody wants to be
brought to light, living or otherwise.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah, No, that's great, that's great. I mean, I would
also say part of why we even did this series
was because we wanted people to understand and even I
know more clearly now that the closure and the shuddering
of a facility doesn't automatically mean that the harm or
the damage won't continue or you won't experience anything once
(16:57):
that's been done, and so it is important to recordognize that, hey,
we've done a heavy lift to either get this plant
to relocate or to cease operations, or to reduce their
emissions or to reduce their pollution, but there is still
work to be done to make sure that you're still
protected from any potential contamination that you were experiencing or
(17:20):
that you are currently going to experience that sitting either
in the water supply, in the soil, in the air
that hasn't been resolved although the operations themselves may have ceased,
and so it is important to continue to have that
conversation and recognize that so you're not left believing wrongly
(17:42):
that everything is fine. Now they're gone, it's shut down.
I don't see the building there anymore. Everything is great.
Finally we're done, you know, and then you move on.
There is some residual, there is a legacy, There is
environmental insice that still takes place. Right. The idea of
(18:04):
being compensated for your you know, harm, The idea of
getting health care that takes care of you from what
you've experienced while they were operating, that needs to be
a conversation, right. The idea that you know, you're trying
to re establish your communities that may have been impacted
(18:26):
by these facilities, that has to be a conversation because
somebody has to pay for it. Somebody has to help
you rebuild what you've lost. Someone has to invest in
where you are to ensure that you have a community
that's safe and healthy. All that needs to happen even
after the facility has gone. And so, I mean, Savannah,
(18:49):
you're absolutely right. I mean, these are the things we
have to talk about and really think through and every
community is different. Every community has its own set of concerns,
its own way of addressing issues. We need to get
engaged and understand that, and at the very least bring
awareness to people around us, because just like Savanna's mom
(19:11):
or my parents or anyone else, they wouldn't just know
these things. Right. You sent me an email. I read
through it and I said, this is something I didn't
know about. Let's have the conversation. And that one conversation
turned into seven. But I'm glad we had it. And
so these are all amazing, great things that we need
(19:35):
to really be aware of and continue to push for
because I do believe that there is a path towards
a cleaner, healthier, safer community for everyone, regardless of the
history of your town or city or even state. So
thank you for sharing all those things. You know how
(19:59):
we always do this, Give me something else, anything else
it's on your mind, on your heart that you just
came to your head the second ago while I was talking,
because we all want to hear what you think, how
you feel, and what we should do about all this.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I guess how I think and feel is that, yes,
we've made a lot of you know, headway in you know,
this past seven episode of this podcast series, as you mentioned,
but there's still a lot more headway to be made,
Like there are programs to be started, there's still pollution
to clean up, there's more awareness to be raised, there's
(20:38):
communities to be you know, empowered and to be listened to.
And the fight you know, to get rid of CODEAC
is still continuing, like like you mentioned, and I don't
think they should dishearten us in a sense that I
feel like it's something it can be like, you know,
(20:58):
we had such a big victim and now it's like
now you have another victory. It is it is heartening
in a sense that progress is being made towards you know,
a more justice enable earth. But let us you know,
not as we be disheartened by the fact that there
is still all these issues. And even still even if
our town by, you know, by some awesome chance, happens
(21:22):
to be you know, wad of all the pollution. You know,
jobs are invested in, healthcare is invested in people who
were impacted receive the care that they need for free
or for at least a very very very reduced price.
There's still other towns that needs to return in as well.
And there's other towns that you know I mentioned earlier,
(21:44):
like part two or part three, could we environmental injustice legacy,
environmental injustice. Well, some towns are still on part one,
and we need to help to make sure that those
parts those towns can get to the next part in
their chapter away from those polluting industries and facilities and
you know, essentially war mongering, abusive industries that don't really
(22:06):
care about the people, they care about their profits, and
the sense that this is this is a battle for
all of us. And I guess I would say, like
I've always said, I don't want to feel like I'm
being redundant, but alas I'm going to be learn more
about justice in your hometown if possible. Make a friend
(22:28):
with your local librarian if you have one. I'm sure
they would love to help you conduct some research. Not
everything has been digitized nowadays, but a lot of good
things are in the archives waiting to be discovered. Similarly,
learn how I mean, I'm just gonna teach you how
to do you know, online research. Also talk with other
people as well. You will not know a lot of
the personal stores about being like, oh, you know, let
(22:51):
me go connect with my neighbor, that person who I
work with the same job as me. Oh, that person's
a supermarket. They can't meet people. Part of the reason
that any kind of environmental justice is so damaging is
because it's not just hurting the earth, it's also hurting people.
So we need to make sure that we're investing in
people and that we can what people are saying. And yes,
(23:13):
a newspaper can tell us what somebody's saying, we also
want to hear about what is you know, someone who's
actually in our life saying as well these changes that
person who wrote the newspaper is you know, it's even
many many years ago, maybe they've moved out of the town.
Because there is somebody right in front of you who
you should be caring about. We should all be, you know,
be caring for our communities and that involves the people
(23:33):
in them. And I would encourage you also to share
what you know of others. I think there's a sense
that it's like there's a sense it's like I don't
want to speak against this industry because you never know
who's listening, or it's like it's not gonna make a
big difference. Don't let it be like you know that
they don't see like the two taboo topics like politics
and religion. Don't let it be like that. Talk about
(23:54):
find a way to say it to somebody that you
know it won't like roughly ifevers that somebody complete show.
But if you like introduce things being like I really
care about clean water because they also care about clean water.
We all care about clean water to an extent, and
then being like, but I learned this is impacting all water,
and then bringing into the conversation that way, there's back
(24:16):
doors you can take to those hard conversations where people
you know, perhaps you do not want to hear about
the fact that there is injustice pertaining to racism and sexism,
and you know where you're from all these things. But
if you can get in another side door, you can, essentially,
(24:37):
I would say, help to expand their universe about what
is going on in the community and not only why
it impacts the neighbors, but how it also impacts them
without them being all like, oh, you're liberal away from me,
but we need dialogue, and dialogue is really really important,
constructive dialogue, dialogue that that's also insult.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yes, yes, I like that dialogue that is informed, that
has true facts and information that we can use to
make things better. And I love the point you made
that it's affecting all of us, because we do spend
a lot of time kind of highlighting the disparities and
disproportioned impacts. And it's true, and that happens. But the
(25:23):
idea isn't that, oh, I'm only helping those individuals who
are disproportionately impacted. You're helping everyone. We all benefit from
each of us living in a healthier, safe, for cleaner community.
We all benefit from reducing pollution, we all benefit from
reducing contamination and exposure to contamination and those kinds of things.
(25:44):
And so it's really important to keep that in mind
if you're having these conversations, this dialogue, as Savannah said,
if you're informing yourself, if you're learning about these issues,
just know that that work will help everyone all around you,
everyone in your community, everyone in your city, of your town,
not just the one side of town that's experiencing the
(26:07):
disproportionate impacts, or not just one community, not just one
group of people, not just one zip code. It's all
of us who benefit from that understanding and from that
knowledge from that dialogue and ultimately from that action, and
so we are both encouraging all of you listening to
do that, to take those actions. To learn about your community,
(26:29):
learn about what's been going on from the environmental side,
of the economic side, the health sides. Talk to your
neighbors and friends, talk to your local people, right your librarians,
your law enforcement officers, teachers, people who've been there for
twenty thirty, forty fifty years. They know and they've seen
experience so much that can help you gain a better
(26:52):
understanding of what's been happening in that community. And so
that's what we want you to leave with. Lazy Environmental
justice is a real tangible concern, and keep fighting, keep pushing,
keep learning, and keep making the difference. Anything else, Savannah,
(27:13):
that's what you told me to do.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, No, I think you have encapsulated it perfectly.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
All right. Well, if that's the case, then Savannah, thank
you so much. I cannot tell you how great it's
been to have you on the podcast for as long
as we've had you. This is our last episode on
this topic. You're getting ready for graduation. We know you're
going to do great things, be very impactful. Wherever you land,
(27:43):
we know it's gonna be. I'm not even gonna say
good luck because you don't need luck. You're clearly highly intelligent, motivated, smart, hardworking.
We talked about it already off air. Very hard working.
I'm telling you she works very hard people, very very hard.
And so thank you so much for being on the podcast.
And you have a home here anytime whenever you like.
(28:04):
So if you have another topic you want to discuss,
if you have some ideas that you feel like you're
not hearing enough about, hey, we can bring it here
and we can discuss it and learn together. So thank
you so much for being on a podcast with me.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And thank you for having me and you know, responding
to my initial emails, I'll thought response, none of this
would have been possible. And thank you for putting up
with me sometimes in my mad ramblings in my schedule,
and I really appreciate it. And I hope all hope
all your listeners to know how awesome that you are
and how you know why you are and how cool
(28:42):
you are too, well.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Well, thank you, thank you, I appreciate it. And with that,
this has been another episode of the Environmental Justice Lab
where we are for the people and for the planet.
We'll see you next time. Oh,
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.