September 9, 2025 • 44 mins
What does it mean to fight for environmental justice when the very language of justice is under attack?
In this first episode (of a 2-part series), I talk with environmental scientist, small business owner, and consultant Kibri Hutchison Everett about the fight for environmental justice. We trace her journey from growing up in Rock Hill, South Carolina (my hometown), to working in federal environmental data analysis, and ultimately to founding her own company to support communities on the frontlines of pollution and disinvestment.
We talk about her work with the HBCU Environmental Justice Technical Collaborative, and Kibri speaks candidly about the realities of working with marginalized communities, and calling environmental racism what it is, even when federal agencies and political leaders try to erase the term. Together, we unpack how industries target poor Black, Brown, and rural communities, how changes in White House can roll back decades of progress overnight, and why grassroots organizing and data sovereignty remain critical tools for resistance.
This is not just a policy discussion; it’s a call to action. Tune in to learn how environmental justice plays out on the ground and why vulnerable communities are still forced to fight for clean air, clean water, and basic dignity.
Resources:
HBCU Environmental Justice Technical Collaborative
Article: Environmental Justice in an Era of Federal Rollbacks
HBCU EJ Screening Tool
Justice40 Awards Tracker
Connect with Kibri Everett
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kibri-hutchison-everett-646b051b3/
Instagram: @the.enviro.vegan
@key.environmental.consulting
Websites:
www.keyenvi.com
www.palmettofutures.org
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support.
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
In this first episode (of a 2-part series), I talk with environmental scientist, small business owner, and consultant Kibri Hutchison Everett about the fight for environmental justice. We trace her journey from growing up in Rock Hill, South Carolina (my hometown), to working in federal environmental data analysis, and ultimately to founding her own company to support communities on the frontlines of pollution and disinvestment.
We talk about her work with the HBCU Environmental Justice Technical Collaborative, and Kibri speaks candidly about the realities of working with marginalized communities, and calling environmental racism what it is, even when federal agencies and political leaders try to erase the term. Together, we unpack how industries target poor Black, Brown, and rural communities, how changes in White House can roll back decades of progress overnight, and why grassroots organizing and data sovereignty remain critical tools for resistance.
This is not just a policy discussion; it’s a call to action. Tune in to learn how environmental justice plays out on the ground and why vulnerable communities are still forced to fight for clean air, clean water, and basic dignity.
Resources:
HBCU Environmental Justice Technical Collaborative
Article: Environmental Justice in an Era of Federal Rollbacks
HBCU EJ Screening Tool
Justice40 Awards Tracker
Connect with Kibri Everett
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kibri-hutchison-everett-646b051b3/
Instagram: @the.enviro.vegan
@key.environmental.consulting
Websites:
www.keyenvi.com
www.palmettofutures.org
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support.
Connect with our Environmental Justice Lab community:
Instagram: @envjusticelab
YouTube: @envjusticelab
Email: theenvironmentaljusticelab@gmail.com
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you listen! Support our work by joining the Supporters Club: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-environmental-justice-lab--5583745/support
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph, and I missed y'all. You know, it's
been a while, about a month since our last episode,
and I just wanted to stop by and thank you
all for listening, thank you for engaging with the podcast,
thank you for engaging our content, sharing it, liking it.
(00:21):
I really appreciate it. And you know, we've been out
for about a month. You know, school just got started.
I switched universities, so I was at the University of
South Carolina and now I'm at Liberty University in Virginia.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
It's a great place to be and so trying to
get going again. And we're back, and so we're going
to kick things off with a two part episode series
with Kibrey Hutchison Evert. She is an environmental scientist, she's
a community organizer, she's a researcher, small business owner, and
she's from my hometown of Rock Hills, South Carolina. And
(01:01):
so we're going to talk about the work she's doing,
the things that she's trying to accomplish as an environmental
scientist and environmental justice activist. And in the second part,
we're going to talk about the trash pile. The trash
pile is this neighborhood in rock Hill where we're from,
full of trash, abandoned, sacrificed, and we're going to talk
(01:24):
about that area and what she's doing as a researcher
and as a scholar and as a community organizer to
help the trash pile be better. And so I'm glad
you're here. It's good to be back. And so, without
any further Ado enjoyed the episode. Welcome to the Environmental
(02:07):
Justice Lab podcast. I am your host, doctor Leslie Joseph.
Thank you so much for joining me and on this episode,
I have a very very very special guest with me.
Her name is Kibrie Hutcheson. Everett, Kibrie, how are you
doing today?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I am doing just fine, yes, on this nice sunny
summer day.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes, it is a good day outside. I'm in Virginia
right now. Where are you currently?
Speaker 4 (02:35):
I am currently actually in Charlottette, North Carolina.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So in Charlotte perfect. Perfect.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
So people listening may not know much about you, so
can you tell them who you are, where you're from,
what you do, what you love, why we're here?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Okay, Well, thanks Leslie is so great to get reacquainted
with you.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Both of us grew up together, I believe it or not, in.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
The little city of rock Hill, South Carolina, So I
keep re ever it. I'm an environmental scientist, and i've
I've worked as an environmental scientist for over twenty years.
And just to go back a little bit, when we
were both in middle school at rossn Road Middle School
in rock Hill, I think I think it was my
(03:24):
sixth grade science class where we were had to do
a project on rainforest and that was kind of my
first memory of really being interested and wanted to learn
everything I could about the planet. And so luckily, by
the time I got, you know, applied to college and
was getting ready to go to college, I knew, you know,
what I wanted to study. So I you know, graduated
(03:48):
from high school and went off to NC State in
Raleigh and initially majored in geology, but then switched to a.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
More broader environmental program and.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
So graduate from there, and then went on to NCCU
North Carolina Central University in Durham and got a master's
in Earth science with the concentration in GIS. And so
while I was at NCCU and Durham. Well, actually before
I enrolled at in n CCU, I ended up getting
(04:21):
a job there at the university to work on a
project called ERIC and ERIC stood for Environmental Risk in
Communities of Color and this project was funded through an
earmark from a former Congressman, David Price, who wouldmark earmark
money specifically for NCCU to do this research. And so
(04:44):
my colleague and I we were going out two communities
of color around Durham collecting soil samples and then we
were analyzing those samples in the lab using gas chromatography
and other analytical instrumentation to try and character a degree
to which communities of Color and Durham were contaminated. And
(05:05):
so that was kind of my first introduction into environmental justice.
And at the time maybe I didn't realize that it
was environmental justice, you know, it fell on that umbrella,
but essentially that's what it was.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
And that was back in two thousand and four.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
So that was my first introduction into the EJ space,
which is where I mainly work now. And so after
I or my last semester of graduate school, I ended
up getting a position at a large federal contractor in
the Research Triangle Park area of North Carolina, and I
worked there for almost eighteen years in kind of a
data analyst.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Role, so doing a lot of.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Database data compilation, data analysis, mainly for environmental projects funded
by EPA, mainly the EPA Office of Order is mainly
what I worked in. But you know, with GIS, you can,
you know, work with any kind of data. So I did,
you know, analysis of not environmental data like crime and
(06:07):
health and economic so you name it.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
So day in and.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Day out for almost twenty years after leaving the communities
and being out you know, in communities, I did that
for a long time. But you know, I'd say, you know,
towards the end of my time there, I really wanted
to you know, get out and be in community with
people who weren't researchers, who weren't scientists. That's who all,
(06:33):
you know, who I was around all the time, day
in and day out, and really be able to take
you know, my technical training and my passion for the
planet and passion for people too more you know, work
more directly to help to help them solve environmental problems
in their communities. And also around this time is when
(06:54):
the Biden Harris administration came to office, and thanks to
that administration, in the executive orders that were signed, there
was now whereas before there hadn't been really any funding
for the environmental justice work. So I mentioned this Congressman
David Price. He earmarked this money, you know, for NCCU
to study this. But you know, given my role at
(07:17):
this company, I kind of knew based on the contracts
that the company was getting, kind of what EPA's goals
were because we we had a lot of e PA contracts,
an EJ environmental justice was not. There weren't contracts in
that space until Biden Harris came along, and at that
point the floodgates opened. So there was now interest in,
(07:42):
you know, helping communities. There was no interest in helping
marginalized communities in particular, and there was now money available
to do it through mainly through the Justice for the Initiative.
And so, given you know the availability of funding now
and my desire to get out and you know, be
(08:02):
able to touch people and not be at a computer
day in and day out, I decided to start my
own company to be able to work more closely with communities.
And so in twenty twenty three, I started my own
environmental consulting company, and initially I was, you know, supporting
multiple community based organizations through a life cycle basically, you know,
(08:26):
helping them apply for funding, writing proposals and grants for them,
and then once they won the funding, actually helping them
execute the work because a lot of these communities, in
nonprofits in general, for the most part, they don't have
a lot of resources. They can't really afford to pay
a scientist to be on their team, they may not
(08:47):
have the background or even know how to, or don't
have the time to even write a grant or proposal,
and so that was kind of my role was to
assist them with getting the funding and executing the work
to make their communities better. And so that is what
I had been doing until the change in administration for
(09:08):
the most part.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Okay, And so your company, when you founded it, it was
funded through these grants from the press administration. The way
that they had environmental justice grants set up. You were
able to get that money and then start your company
using it to help communities.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah, yeah, for the most part.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, so yes, there most of my funding, did you know,
initially come through self contracting roles, which the prime contracts
were funded by agencies like EPA and USDA, for example,
but also some of the nonprofits I ended up teaming
(09:47):
up with, you know, I would help them apply for
grant funding, and then once they got the funding, we
would kind of be on their team to help them
execute the work that we proposed to get that funding.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
So yeah, to say about probably, yeah, good.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Seventy five eighty, maybe even ninety percent of the initial funding, yes,
was as a result of the Justice forty initiative and
all the other large environmental justice related opportunities that came
about through that previous administration.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And so the obvious question now is how does that
look with the current administration, Because obviously all those things
were rolled back, all those things were dismantled, and because
it was done through executive order with the Biden administration,
it was pretty easy to just kind of say, uh
(10:42):
no more. And so now that that's the case, how
has that shifted or how has that changed the way
you've approached the work that you're currently doing through your company.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Yes, yes, it's been quite unfortunate and almost a nightmare
type of scenario those of us who work in the
environmental justice space, not just in the funding or the
lack of funding opportunities, but kind of the weaponization or
the demonization of even the term environmental justice as if
it's you know something, you.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Know, something bad or negative or even criminal.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
So yeah, it really is, yeah, been you know, really
tough times for not just environmental justice, but the environmental
climate movement you know collectively, or even science you know,
as a whole is really under attack. And so what
we've been experiencing are a lot of a lot fewer opportunities,
a lot more competition for the few opportunities that are available.
(11:44):
In small businesses like mine who don't have you know,
large teams of people who can do business development or
you know, right proposals, it's even more challenging. And especially
a new company like mine that doesn't have a lot
of past performance to report, we find ourselves kind of
at the bottom of the list or the few opportunities
(12:04):
that are available.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
And so it does.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Require us to pivot into other areas that or quote unquote,
you know say or not at the ire of this
current administration as far as being trying to tear it down.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
But but yeah, there is still a lot of opportunities
in the environmental space.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
What we're having to do is you know, not explicitly
say something like environmental racism.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
I mean that might turn a lot of people off.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Even the term environmental justice or even you know historically
marginalized it there words Now just crazy that there are
words that are on you know, bad lists that can't.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Even be used and heard.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
The term environment is even you know, in some cases
in climate can.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Be caused red flags.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
And so, you know, initially when I started this company,
you know, my target client was the federal government, because
the US federal government is the largest spender in the world.
And having worked for a large federal contractor, that was
a space that I understood how to capture. And so
now I'm looking at other more local and state, local
(13:16):
and city government opportunities, which generally are smaller than you know,
federal opportunities. They're usually you know, shorter term and can
be you know, even more more competitive, more people going
after them. So so yeah, there's a pivot in the
client you know, looking at different clients and even trying
(13:40):
to get into other kind of non community focused you
know work, but more you know.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Technical engineering type of work.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Built environment for example, is one area that is generally
safe things like transit and transportation.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
We've been able to capture some work in that space.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
So those kinds of things, those infrastructure things, those are
you not going to go away, especially in cities like
Raleig and Charlotte that continue to grow and expand so
we're moving into you know, those kinds of areas. But
you know, whenever we have the opportunity to assist communities,
we do. I do a lot of pro bono work
(14:22):
also through my nonprofit as well, so you know, assisting
with grant writing you know on the side, or community
group you know, when an opportunity does present, or or
setting up air monitors in an underserved community that has
some concern about the air quality in their community. We've
done kind of that stuff for you know, on a
(14:43):
pro bono basis. So so, yeah, our heart is stilled
in the right place, but the funding sadly has moved
or is no longer available in that space for the
most part.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, yeah, no, I can understand that. And that's what
we're hearing from all across the country, right. I Mean
a lot of people were very excited when they saw
that the previous administration was so determined to get resources
and funding into these communities to help serve and build
up the environments and protect people from hazards and contamination.
(15:16):
And so to see it just taken away so abruptly,
so quickly, and without any real justification. Let's just be honest.
There's no scientific, no economic, not even a real political
reason for doing it.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It's just I'm here, I can do what I want.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I'm going to do it, and it doesn't seem to
be really any strategy behind how we're going to protect
people now that these things have been taken away. And
so I want to go back though, because we talked
about just really you kind of passed really quickly where
we talked about the terms, and the terms kind of
being no longer acceptable when you write proposals, when you
(15:56):
talk about things, you know, environmental justice, enronment, or racism,
you know, if people say environmental inequality, inequity, And so
when we think about those terms or how we think
about these issues, First of all, I'm really glad that
you're here because you work with communities directly. I stay
in academia. I am in what they call the ivory towers.
(16:18):
I don't get to really get onto the ground and
understand what people are seeing and feeling and what these
terms actually look like on the ground. And so I'm
glad to have you on the podcast. How do you
think about it as a community activist, as someone who
is on the ground consulting community groups, how do you
define these terms these what terms do you use or
(16:40):
how would you talk to people who you meet about
what's going on in their communities? How would you engage
them and talk about these things?
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Mean from my perspective, I honestly, you know, verbally, you know,
have not changed my language. Now speak plainly, and I'm
not afraid of of the backlash.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Or the economic fallout that may happen.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
So and really I don't have to be afraid at
this point because I know there's no there's no opportunity
for environmental justice at the federal level anymore. So I'm
not going to be writing any proposals to the federal
government for environmental justice. So so when I go out
into communities, I'm still I'm not changing, I'm still you know,
speaking plainly.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
You know, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Afraid to say environmental racism, because that's what it is.
When you have, you know, the powers that be local
governments or even powerful industries come into Well, first they
target these industries, I mean these areas that are marginalized,
that people are disengaged, they are you know, below the
poverty line, what have you.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
That is That is racism. That is environmental racism by definition,
so you know.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Being targeted for those different economic or demographic variable. And
then when they when they get there, these polluters, when
they set up shop in these communities, they basically you know,
do whatever they want because they know that, you know,
they have the power and the people don't. So I'm
(18:17):
not afraid to point that out when I you know
and working you know in communities, because that's what they
the people who.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Live there already know.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
And you know, I don't want to try and sugarcoat
anything because I know based on you know, where we
grew up in rock Hill, you know, and.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
What we've seen. This is reality.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
So it was no reason for me to like lose
trust with the community by trying to, you know, say
something different from what they're experiencing in reality.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
No, absolutely, So you walk into the meeting, I'm happy
to be here. All of you living in this community
are experiencing environmental racism as a result of what's happening,
and we want to try to address it. Environmental justice,
obviously is a term that kind of seaks to broaden
the conversation because a lot of people and it's unfortunate
(19:12):
because two things can be true, right, So you can have,
on the one hand, the idea that certain communities are targeted.
There's no question about it. Black communities are targeted, Brown
communities are targeted, Indigenous communities, you are targeted. Low income
communities are targeted. We know it for a fact, you
call it out, be very direct. But what also happens
(19:34):
sometimes is people want to give the impression that we're
providing preferential treatment or we're trying to gain something additional
for these communities at the expense of others, when in reality,
and you know this because you've worked in all these communities,
they are poor white communities too. There are you know,
(19:56):
RV parks and trailer homes and rural areas and farm
communities that are also targeted by these industries. Their workers
aren't protected. The people are in just as bad a
situation as any other group. And so I do like
the idea of having very frank, blunt, targeted conversations with
(20:19):
the people that you're engaging with.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
How has that been for you?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Go ahead, Oh, I was gonna say, yeah, speaking of Yeah,
just trying to you know, the people who have been underserved,
trying to bring them up to be equitable is what
we're trying to do, not at the expense of anyone else.
But I wanted to say too, with the whole Justice
forty initiative, and as you alluded to earlier, a lot
of that money and funding was actually going to benefit
(20:49):
not necessarily you know, black and brown, but you know,
rural white American towns. And I actually did an analysis
here in the city of North Carolina to see where,
you know, well specifically looking trying to find out, you know,
how much of the Justice forty funding actually went to
black businesses. And I couldn't find, you know, that any
(21:11):
of the Justice forty money, by the time Biding Harris
administration was over, had gone to any black businesses here
in this state. So really, you know, all the billions
of dollars you know, being taken away, it really does hurt,
not necessarily, I mean environmentally, yes, it hurts you know,
black communities, but economically, I think you know, white and
(21:35):
rural areas probably are going to be missing out, you know,
or being hurt even further.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
See and when you say that, I honestly don't know
how to feel. Get to help me with this, because
on the one hand, we were told, and it was
touted that these initiatives were put in place to lift
up what we would call historically marginalized communities, which are
(22:04):
at least in America, primarily black and brown. So you know,
there was and I made a big fuss about this
last year when the initiative went out, that they took
the race and the ethnicity indicators out of their tool
that they used to identify the communities and they just
(22:26):
went with you know, climate, they went with the economics,
they went with other major categories, left those out. I
was very upset about that, and I said, hey, you
can't do environmental justice without considering racial and ethnic factors.
But the pushback was always well, the same communities that
(22:47):
are black and brown also deal with these other issues too.
They'll see some money. It shouldn't be an issue. We
don't want the initiative to be undermined by race and ethnicity,
because when you go to court it might not pass
the court's analysis, and it might be taken away all together. Okay, fine,
(23:09):
And so we went through with it. It passed, we celebrated,
we had the you know, white house lawn signings and
all the fun stuff. And I'm thinking, the money's coming
to these places, to the people who needed the most.
Your analysis is telling me it's not.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Now I'm upset.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
But then I go back and now it's twenty twenty
five and they pull it away, and so it's like, well,
wait a minute. I still wanted people to get help.
I just thought it was going to happen differently. Now
you're taking the whole thing away. Now the people who
actually need help aren't getting help either. They happen to
be poor white rural residents, maybe farmers, maybe agricultural workers,
(23:48):
but in any sense, they need help too.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
What are we doing?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
And so now my brain can't compute all the different
issues that are happening all at once. And so how
do you think about it? This kind of stuff? Because
I'm imagining you wanted to have those black businesses lifted
up and they weren't, But you also don't want the
people who were suffering to suffer even more because you
put the money away exactly.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, yeah, and I will say the way EVA kind
of rolled it out at least EVA.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Now there are other USDA agencies.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
I'll talk about you because I'm most familiar with that agency,
But even with USDA, I think the cases the same,
where it really was not black and brown people getting
access to this money.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
In my I suspect in large heart it wasn't.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
But with EVA, I mean they and again being in
the federal contracting space and you know, small businesses and
particularly black businesses, we've been advocating for a long time
that the federal contracting space is set up for you know,
the big boys, the larger entities to be able to
get the funding, and so we've been advocating for you know,
(24:56):
breaking up some of these contracts and make them smaller
so that you know, small businesses like mine for example,
who don't have like a lot of resources can't compete.
But what EPA did in the you know, in the
beginning or up until everything was shut down, was they
were putting out these large contracts and so they went
(25:16):
to large entities that could compete. But this year January
is when like the smaller grants were about to be
rolled out through the Grant Makers Program and the Thriving
Communities grant Makers Program, so you know they were going
to be you know, thousands of small grassroots organizations able
to get access to some finally to some of this
(25:37):
justice wardy funding. So it was uh, you know e
p I wish they would have started with that as
opposed to some of these you know, larger contracts. If
they started with a smaller grant makers funding, that would
have reached more people faster, not you know, not wait
until the end of the administration to try and get
that money out and now it's all gone taken away.
(25:58):
But I do want to go back to the the
tool because you mentioned the s just tool deimate Environmental
Justice Screening Tool. Yes, and I want to mention that
I'm a part of a collaborative we call that HBCU
Environmental Justice Technical Collaborative. Were made up of various researchers,
most of US geography backgrounds across the country who have
(26:21):
HBCU connections, either professors at HBCUs or attended at HBCU.
And I've only been a part of but for about
a year. But doctor Bullard, the father of environmental justice,
reached out to the founders of this HBCU collaborative and
was also making a fuss about race not being a
part of that tool. And so doctor Brullet contracted with
(26:46):
this group that I'm a part of, and they we
developed another another tool that does include race. So luckily,
now even though that you know, just tool is gone,
our tool, the tool that the Heget team is what.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
We're called created, is still available.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
And the Heget team also developed a second tool trying
to track where this funding was going or it you know,
ended up going. And so they did a couple of
case studies for a couple of states to see exactly
you know, who was getting this Justice forty funding. And
so that yeah, just another reason too. While we have
to basically do things ourselves, own our own data, you know,
(27:28):
have data sovereignty in situations like this, which I would
never would have imagined that you know, databases and you know,
data sets and would be taken away. That was not
something that I would have envisioned under this administration.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
But here we are.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
And so luckily, you know, doctor Bullard and the Heget
team had that foresight to create you know, a replica
of this tool but include race in it, and so
now that is.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Still available, okay, And what's that tool called.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
It's called well, there's two. I'm trying to think what
the is. I'll have to look it up because I
don't want to say it incorrectly. But the other one
is like a Justice forty, you know, tracking tool. But
the one that has the race in it, I think
it's just the HBCU see just tool. I think that
might be the name of it.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Okay, I get that to you.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, that's definitely We'll get that and put it in
description of the episode. That's going to be an important
tool because I was wondering what we're going to do
since I mean, ejscreen was just completely scrubbed. Everything on
the EPA site is completely scrubbed of justice information. I'm
not even sure the Social Vulnerability Index is still there.
Not for the CDC. I have to go back and look,
but they've been scrubbing all the data because they don't
(28:41):
even want to know what's happening in the country. And
so does the HBCU tool cover the entire country?
Speaker 4 (28:50):
I do believe it does. Yeah, I think it is.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Okay, perfect, So that might be something that we might
use in our research. Now that the other tools have
been taken away. Yeah, have you used it for any
of your research? Like, how do you feel about the tools,
you know, usefulness and applicability.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Yeah, I haven't had.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
To use the tool necessarily for anything that I've done.
I mean I did. I think I use the c
just tool a couple of times for something. I think
I was looking up energy burden data like last year.
But I yeah, I mean I'm so old fashioned that
the tool in my mind. Yet these tools are view
even like EJ screen and the SBI, you know, there
(29:35):
are viewer tools.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
I'm old fashioned.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
I go and download the data myself and you know,
do my own analysis in ourdis rather than of using
a TOOLIP. If I want something quick, any quick, you know,
a quick look at something, then I would go to
those tools. But to do a deep analysis, I always
found that I had to just go and get the
data myself.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
And do the work.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Okay, And you can do that no matter what's going on,
because that data is always available.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah, even though I mean I thought I heard that
some of the senses data was taken down momentarily, but
I presume it's back up. But so, yeah, I did
hear that early back in January February. Yeah, since its data,
since its dot gog went down, and hopefully when it
came back it was still accurate.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I mean it's always something, It's always something. So I
guess the bottom line for people listening, if you want
detailed justice analysis, deal with the environment called Kebri because
she has this skill and she has the ability to
(30:44):
dig deep no matter what's going on on the surface,
with these indexes and all these other tools. So call
her and get that work done or make sure.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
They do that.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah, Yeah, I mean hopefully it's still out there. I
had to holp my breath a couple of time I
needed some air data and I was like, God, I
hope this help is data is still available. Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
So you mentioned we were talking about environmental justice and
racism earlier, and you were talking about how and you
were kind of just describing it for us. You know,
the governments in industries and they make decisions and they
do these kind of things. From your perspective, how exactly
are these decisions being made?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
How is a.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Large industry ending up in a black, predominantly black neighborhood.
How is a large data center finding its way to
for instance, North Charleston in South Krolina instead of the
city of Charleston, which has a more diverse population. How
is that happening from your vantage point? Is it really
(31:49):
just back room We don't see the deals or do
council members and mayors and governors have something going on?
Is it really just about the money they got the
money and the land?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
How do you understand these decisions being made?
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Yeah, I mean I think we might need to take
a back, go back in history and and think about
where historically Blacks have ended up the land they've they've
ended up on. In a lot of cases, it's usually
has been historically, you know, undesirable land, especially in South Carolina,
the swamp land or down in the low country, you
(32:29):
know land that floods so less desirable land which historically
had low value, and so generation after generation, you know,
black people have lived lived in those spaces. Now you know,
the tables are turn and that land is now because
it's largely coastal, especially along South Carolina coast, you know
(32:49):
there is desirable now, desirable not for not only for
recreation and vacationing, but also for industries and so I
think the answer to the question is that this undesirable
land has less value, is cheaper, and that's what these
companies are looking for. They're looking for cheap land. And
(33:11):
I was in a webinar a couple of weeks ago
and it was about data centers, and that's what they said,
that these data centers are being cited in places where
land is cheap. So you know that's going to be
rural areas in a lot of cases, and there are
a lot of black people in rural America because the
land is cheaper there. They're also going to states where
(33:32):
there's a favorable regulatory climate so they can get away
with pollution.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
And you know, people aren't gonna they're just gonna get
a slap on the risks.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
You know, they might get a small fine maybe, but
you know they can get away with stuff. So again
that's going to be you know, largely these Southern states
where you know there's not a lot of environmental tough
environmental regulation.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
You're not going to go to California and.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Think you can get away with you know, stuff that's
happening in Memphis, for example. So those two you know
things are you know, reasons why these polluters are ending up,
you know, in let's say black areas in particular, because
land is cheap in rural areas, the regulatory climate you know,
is favorable for them to to set up there, and
(34:19):
so they ended up. It comes down to the bottom line,
it's cheaper for them to get started, they save money,
you know, fewer upfront costs associated with purchasing land. And
so sadly, the people that you know generally live in
in those areas.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Yeah, are you know, there are fewer, fewer in number.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
And disengaged, you know, focused on other things, but they're Yeah,
there are plenty of environmental champions though in rural areas.
So I don't want to discount that because there are
a lot of people who take charge and you know,
speak up for their community when something you know, goes
wrong and when polluters come into their areas and start yah,
damaging the environment.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
In public health.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
So hmmm, So we can't really vote our way out
of it or replace leadership because it sounds like the
way that things are set up, it's able to be
continued no matter who's in charge or who is responsible
(35:24):
for governing those communities in those areas. So what what
can we do about that?
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, I mean it's a tough question because you know,
money talks, and you know a lot of these polluters
are especially as it relates to data centers. I mean,
they're promising you know, a lot of investment, a lot
of jobs, and they're getting a lot of tax incentives too,
and so I mean, honestly, it is paint to play.
(35:52):
You know, I'm not deep into public policy, and so
I often looked at California to see, you know, how
they kind of solve problems, especially on the environmental front.
They kind of are the leaders in a lot of
environmental policy. But here in the South, he has a
different situation. And even by state, you know, it's different
(36:14):
to South Carolina is definitely different from North Carolina as
it relates to protecting the environment for sure. So yeah,
I mean it really is a tough tough question to
answer because, yeah, you know, it largely does come down
the money. You know, these companies promise jobs and they
promise economic investment, but as we've seen in a lot
(36:36):
of cases, you know, they don't deliver on those jobs.
They take ten twenty years before they do, and then
they you know, damage and destroy ecosystems and then walk away,
you know what the people.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
Living there having to suffer.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
So so yeah, I just yeah, don't don't have an
answer a good answer for that, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
No, No, I understand. It's a hard one.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Everybody I see, I always ask the same question, what's
the way out? What can we do to make things?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Different?
Speaker 1 (37:09):
People have different ideas, different thoughts. Obviously, organizing is a
big thing, and you know, marching and bringing up the
issue and meetings and demanding accountability, demanding stronger protection.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
It's hard. It's hard to work out here.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Ye, so really is depending on what Yeah, it can
be even harder depending on.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
Where you are.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah. No, So let's talk about that then.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
So we we are from South Carolina. We're from rock Hill.
For those who you don't know, South Carolina is in
the South. Rock Hill is on the border of North
Carolina and South Carolina. I've started calling it South Charlotte
because all the people who work in Charlotte want to
live in rock Hill because it's a little bit cheaper.
(37:57):
And so think about the care line that's thinking about
your work. What are some of the things that you've
seen on the ground that are justice issues in your
opinion that need to be confronted in some way. Just examples.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Yeah, I mean, I guess I should start with you know,
North Carolina, Warren County specifically being the birthplace of the
environmental justice movement. This was in the early to mid eighties,
I think, where the state or some entity was attempting
to dump PCBs polychlorinated biphenels, which Leslie, you probably can
(38:38):
define what those are better than I can, but a contaminant,
a major contaminant. I think they were trying to deposit
them in a landfill there in the soil, that's right,
And so that and the people of the residenc Yeah,
you know, stood up and I think, you know.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
We're trying to block the trucks with their bodies.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
From coming in and dumping these PCBs in their community
community called Afton.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
And so that.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
In the literature is what is coined or cited as
you know, the birth the start of the environmental justice movement.
And so yeah, there's a lot of history you know,
in the in the Carolinas in particular, a lot of
injustices you know, environmentally and otherwise that have happened. That's
you know, one of the most noble ones from the eighties,
(39:25):
but you know, even to date. I mean there's a
large landfill in Samson County, North Carolina, which is kind
of the southeastern part of the state. There are a
lot of you know, injustices around that large the largest
landfill in the state, you know, being there, you know,
adjacent to you know, black community, and is causing so much,
(39:48):
so many nuisances and who knows what is doing to
the water table and whatever else they air you know,
all the different domains. But but yeah, so from east
to west, I mean north to south in the Carolinas
in particular, their issues most recently have been working with
the community in Dylan, who is concerned about air quality.
(40:11):
So the state came in and freed the roads in
their neighborhood with something and and we've set up air
monitors to collect you know, particulate matter readings to see,
you know, what the issue or to characterize the issue,
the air pollution issue, which is their concerned. So yeah,
(40:34):
they're they're countless examples, you know, and yeah, sadly, I
mean they take years to to fix. So from air
and order, you know, they're down in the eastern part
of the state. Their companies like Camors that people in
that area have been complaining about the PI foss issue.
(40:57):
Like I said, there's you name it, you know it
is here somewhere in these states.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah. No, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
When I first started doing research as a professor at
the University of South Carolina, my first thing was looking
at landfills across the state, and so I was able
the publish of article that showed where they were located
and how the populations around landfills became increasingly non white
as you got closer to landfills, and increasingly female headed
(41:27):
households were there as well, and so we could see
all of those things happening. Published that I think it
was at the end of last.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Year, maybe earlier this year.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
But there's definitely a lot of issues environmentally in South Carolina,
and because it's such a diverse state, it's really interesting
to see how rural communities are fairing Black communities, brown communities.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
We have a lot of range and so you can
see the different seas and so.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
Yeah, go ahead, yeah, And I want to mention the
prison population too, which is a demographic that we often
forget about, but there is a large well, I think
it's Kershaw Kershaw County.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I think Kershaw County.
Speaker 4 (42:14):
It's Kershaw, yeah, Kershaw, Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
The large goal mine that is right across the street
from a prison, so I think it's the largest goal
mine on the East Coast is there in Kershaw and.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Right across from a prison.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
I had a family member who was in that prison
and he talked about and this was yeah, not too
long ago. We talked about, you know, the terrible taste
in water that exists at the prison, and who knows
what the air is like. But like, if you look
at an aerial image of of of that that mine,
that goal mine, you can see the scale of it,
(42:49):
and it's yeah, I think that's another area to explore, like,
and there is some there are some researchers who are
looking at you know, these prisons are often located in
areas that are surrounded by environmental injustices as well, So
I don't want to forget about them.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, no, absolutely no, you're right, because I just I
should have mentioned that before, because when I was talking about,
you know, vulnerable communities, I often think about race, think
about ethnicity, think about income, but there are communities that
are just marginalized, just because of who they are, and
I think the prison population is one of them.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
We believe these are the you know, the worst members
of our society, and so we don't really care how
they're treated. We don't care what they're experiencing, and so
we're more than willing to build gold mines, landfills, huge
power plants around them, no concern at all.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Another vulnerable population are undocumented workers, you know, whether they're
immigrants that have come over looking for work, whether people
who have overstayed their visas. Maybe it's children of people
who came over. Because they're undocumented, we aren't concerned about
their well being, and so their work conditions, their living
conditions are usually very, very horrid as a result. And
(44:10):
so I appreciate the reminder because all of these communities
are important and they're meaningful, and we should protect them
just as much as anybody else.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
It doesn't matter who they are.
Welcome to the Environmental Justice Lab. I am your host,
doctor Leslie Joseph, and I missed y'all. You know, it's
been a while, about a month since our last episode,
and I just wanted to stop by and thank you
all for listening, thank you for engaging with the podcast,
thank you for engaging our content, sharing it, liking it.
(00:21):
I really appreciate it. And you know, we've been out
for about a month. You know, school just got started.
I switched universities, so I was at the University of
South Carolina and now I'm at Liberty University in Virginia.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
It's a great place to be and so trying to
get going again. And we're back, and so we're going
to kick things off with a two part episode series
with Kibrey Hutchison Evert. She is an environmental scientist, she's
a community organizer, she's a researcher, small business owner, and
she's from my hometown of Rock Hills, South Carolina. And
(01:01):
so we're going to talk about the work she's doing,
the things that she's trying to accomplish as an environmental
scientist and environmental justice activist. And in the second part,
we're going to talk about the trash pile. The trash
pile is this neighborhood in rock Hill where we're from,
full of trash, abandoned, sacrificed, and we're going to talk
(01:24):
about that area and what she's doing as a researcher
and as a scholar and as a community organizer to
help the trash pile be better. And so I'm glad
you're here. It's good to be back. And so, without
any further Ado enjoyed the episode. Welcome to the Environmental
(02:07):
Justice Lab podcast. I am your host, doctor Leslie Joseph.
Thank you so much for joining me and on this episode,
I have a very very very special guest with me.
Her name is Kibrie Hutcheson. Everett, Kibrie, how are you
doing today?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I am doing just fine, yes, on this nice sunny
summer day.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes, it is a good day outside. I'm in Virginia
right now. Where are you currently?
Speaker 4 (02:35):
I am currently actually in Charlottette, North Carolina.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So in Charlotte perfect. Perfect.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
So people listening may not know much about you, so
can you tell them who you are, where you're from,
what you do, what you love, why we're here?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Okay, Well, thanks Leslie is so great to get reacquainted
with you.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Both of us grew up together, I believe it or not, in.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
The little city of rock Hill, South Carolina, So I
keep re ever it. I'm an environmental scientist, and i've
I've worked as an environmental scientist for over twenty years.
And just to go back a little bit, when we
were both in middle school at rossn Road Middle School
in rock Hill, I think I think it was my
(03:24):
sixth grade science class where we were had to do
a project on rainforest and that was kind of my
first memory of really being interested and wanted to learn
everything I could about the planet. And so luckily, by
the time I got, you know, applied to college and
was getting ready to go to college, I knew, you know,
what I wanted to study. So I you know, graduated
(03:48):
from high school and went off to NC State in
Raleigh and initially majored in geology, but then switched to a.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
More broader environmental program and.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
So graduate from there, and then went on to NCCU
North Carolina Central University in Durham and got a master's
in Earth science with the concentration in GIS. And so
while I was at NCCU and Durham. Well, actually before
I enrolled at in n CCU, I ended up getting
(04:21):
a job there at the university to work on a
project called ERIC and ERIC stood for Environmental Risk in
Communities of Color and this project was funded through an
earmark from a former Congressman, David Price, who wouldmark earmark
money specifically for NCCU to do this research. And so
(04:44):
my colleague and I we were going out two communities
of color around Durham collecting soil samples and then we
were analyzing those samples in the lab using gas chromatography
and other analytical instrumentation to try and character a degree
to which communities of Color and Durham were contaminated. And
(05:05):
so that was kind of my first introduction into environmental justice.
And at the time maybe I didn't realize that it
was environmental justice, you know, it fell on that umbrella,
but essentially that's what it was.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
And that was back in two thousand and four.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
So that was my first introduction into the EJ space,
which is where I mainly work now. And so after
I or my last semester of graduate school, I ended
up getting a position at a large federal contractor in
the Research Triangle Park area of North Carolina, and I
worked there for almost eighteen years in kind of a
data analyst.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Role, so doing a lot of.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Database data compilation, data analysis, mainly for environmental projects funded
by EPA, mainly the EPA Office of Order is mainly
what I worked in. But you know, with GIS, you can,
you know, work with any kind of data. So I did,
you know, analysis of not environmental data like crime and
(06:07):
health and economic so you name it.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
So day in and.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Day out for almost twenty years after leaving the communities
and being out you know, in communities, I did that
for a long time. But you know, I'd say, you know,
towards the end of my time there, I really wanted
to you know, get out and be in community with
people who weren't researchers, who weren't scientists. That's who all,
(06:33):
you know, who I was around all the time, day
in and day out, and really be able to take
you know, my technical training and my passion for the
planet and passion for people too more you know, work
more directly to help to help them solve environmental problems
in their communities. And also around this time is when
(06:54):
the Biden Harris administration came to office, and thanks to
that administration, in the executive orders that were signed, there
was now whereas before there hadn't been really any funding
for the environmental justice work. So I mentioned this Congressman
David Price. He earmarked this money, you know, for NCCU
to study this. But you know, given my role at
(07:17):
this company, I kind of knew based on the contracts
that the company was getting, kind of what EPA's goals
were because we we had a lot of e PA contracts,
an EJ environmental justice was not. There weren't contracts in
that space until Biden Harris came along, and at that
point the floodgates opened. So there was now interest in,
(07:42):
you know, helping communities. There was no interest in helping
marginalized communities in particular, and there was now money available
to do it through mainly through the Justice for the Initiative.
And so, given you know the availability of funding now
and my desire to get out and you know, be
(08:02):
able to touch people and not be at a computer
day in and day out, I decided to start my
own company to be able to work more closely with communities.
And so in twenty twenty three, I started my own
environmental consulting company, and initially I was, you know, supporting
multiple community based organizations through a life cycle basically, you know,
(08:26):
helping them apply for funding, writing proposals and grants for them,
and then once they won the funding, actually helping them
execute the work because a lot of these communities, in
nonprofits in general, for the most part, they don't have
a lot of resources. They can't really afford to pay
a scientist to be on their team, they may not
(08:47):
have the background or even know how to, or don't
have the time to even write a grant or proposal,
and so that was kind of my role was to
assist them with getting the funding and executing the work
to make their communities better. And so that is what
I had been doing until the change in administration for
(09:08):
the most part.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Okay, And so your company, when you founded it, it was
funded through these grants from the press administration. The way
that they had environmental justice grants set up. You were
able to get that money and then start your company
using it to help communities.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah, yeah, for the most part.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, so yes, there most of my funding, did you know,
initially come through self contracting roles, which the prime contracts
were funded by agencies like EPA and USDA, for example,
but also some of the nonprofits I ended up teaming
(09:47):
up with, you know, I would help them apply for
grant funding, and then once they got the funding, we
would kind of be on their team to help them
execute the work that we proposed to get that funding.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
So yeah, to say about probably, yeah, good.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Seventy five eighty, maybe even ninety percent of the initial funding, yes,
was as a result of the Justice forty initiative and
all the other large environmental justice related opportunities that came
about through that previous administration.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And so the obvious question now is how does that
look with the current administration, Because obviously all those things
were rolled back, all those things were dismantled, and because
it was done through executive order with the Biden administration,
it was pretty easy to just kind of say, uh
(10:42):
no more. And so now that that's the case, how
has that shifted or how has that changed the way
you've approached the work that you're currently doing through your company.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Yes, yes, it's been quite unfortunate and almost a nightmare
type of scenario those of us who work in the
environmental justice space, not just in the funding or the
lack of funding opportunities, but kind of the weaponization or
the demonization of even the term environmental justice as if
it's you know something, you.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Know, something bad or negative or even criminal.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
So yeah, it really is, yeah, been you know, really
tough times for not just environmental justice, but the environmental
climate movement you know collectively, or even science you know,
as a whole is really under attack. And so what
we've been experiencing are a lot of a lot fewer opportunities,
a lot more competition for the few opportunities that are available.
(11:44):
In small businesses like mine who don't have you know,
large teams of people who can do business development or
you know, right proposals, it's even more challenging. And especially
a new company like mine that doesn't have a lot
of past performance to report, we find ourselves kind of
at the bottom of the list or the few opportunities
(12:04):
that are available.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
And so it does.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Require us to pivot into other areas that or quote unquote,
you know say or not at the ire of this
current administration as far as being trying to tear it down.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
But but yeah, there is still a lot of opportunities
in the environmental space.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
What we're having to do is you know, not explicitly
say something like environmental racism.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
I mean that might turn a lot of people off.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Even the term environmental justice or even you know historically
marginalized it there words Now just crazy that there are
words that are on you know, bad lists that can't.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Even be used and heard.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
The term environment is even you know, in some cases
in climate can.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Be caused red flags.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
And so, you know, initially when I started this company,
you know, my target client was the federal government, because
the US federal government is the largest spender in the world.
And having worked for a large federal contractor, that was
a space that I understood how to capture. And so
now I'm looking at other more local and state, local
(13:16):
and city government opportunities, which generally are smaller than you know,
federal opportunities. They're usually you know, shorter term and can
be you know, even more more competitive, more people going
after them. So so yeah, there's a pivot in the
client you know, looking at different clients and even trying
(13:40):
to get into other kind of non community focused you
know work, but more you know.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Technical engineering type of work.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Built environment for example, is one area that is generally
safe things like transit and transportation.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
We've been able to capture some work in that space.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
So those kinds of things, those infrastructure things, those are
you not going to go away, especially in cities like
Raleig and Charlotte that continue to grow and expand so
we're moving into you know, those kinds of areas. But
you know, whenever we have the opportunity to assist communities,
we do. I do a lot of pro bono work
(14:22):
also through my nonprofit as well, so you know, assisting
with grant writing you know on the side, or community
group you know, when an opportunity does present, or or
setting up air monitors in an underserved community that has
some concern about the air quality in their community. We've
done kind of that stuff for you know, on a
(14:43):
pro bono basis. So so, yeah, our heart is stilled
in the right place, but the funding sadly has moved
or is no longer available in that space for the
most part.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, yeah, no, I can understand that. And that's what
we're hearing from all across the country, right. I Mean
a lot of people were very excited when they saw
that the previous administration was so determined to get resources
and funding into these communities to help serve and build
up the environments and protect people from hazards and contamination.
(15:16):
And so to see it just taken away so abruptly,
so quickly, and without any real justification. Let's just be honest.
There's no scientific, no economic, not even a real political
reason for doing it.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It's just I'm here, I can do what I want.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I'm going to do it, and it doesn't seem to
be really any strategy behind how we're going to protect
people now that these things have been taken away. And
so I want to go back though, because we talked
about just really you kind of passed really quickly where
we talked about the terms, and the terms kind of
being no longer acceptable when you write proposals, when you
(15:56):
talk about things, you know, environmental justice, enronment, or racism,
you know, if people say environmental inequality, inequity, And so
when we think about those terms or how we think
about these issues, First of all, I'm really glad that
you're here because you work with communities directly. I stay
in academia. I am in what they call the ivory towers.
(16:18):
I don't get to really get onto the ground and
understand what people are seeing and feeling and what these
terms actually look like on the ground. And so I'm
glad to have you on the podcast. How do you
think about it as a community activist, as someone who
is on the ground consulting community groups, how do you
define these terms these what terms do you use or
(16:40):
how would you talk to people who you meet about
what's going on in their communities? How would you engage
them and talk about these things?
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Mean from my perspective, I honestly, you know, verbally, you know,
have not changed my language. Now speak plainly, and I'm
not afraid of of the backlash.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Or the economic fallout that may happen.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
So and really I don't have to be afraid at
this point because I know there's no there's no opportunity
for environmental justice at the federal level anymore. So I'm
not going to be writing any proposals to the federal
government for environmental justice. So so when I go out
into communities, I'm still I'm not changing, I'm still you know,
speaking plainly.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
You know, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Afraid to say environmental racism, because that's what it is.
When you have, you know, the powers that be local
governments or even powerful industries come into Well, first they
target these industries, I mean these areas that are marginalized,
that people are disengaged, they are you know, below the
poverty line, what have you.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
That is That is racism. That is environmental racism by definition,
so you know.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Being targeted for those different economic or demographic variable. And
then when they when they get there, these polluters, when
they set up shop in these communities, they basically you know,
do whatever they want because they know that, you know,
they have the power and the people don't. So I'm
(18:17):
not afraid to point that out when I you know
and working you know in communities, because that's what they
the people who.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Live there already know.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
And you know, I don't want to try and sugarcoat
anything because I know based on you know, where we
grew up in rock Hill, you know, and.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
What we've seen. This is reality.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
So it was no reason for me to like lose
trust with the community by trying to, you know, say
something different from what they're experiencing in reality.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
No, absolutely, So you walk into the meeting, I'm happy
to be here. All of you living in this community
are experiencing environmental racism as a result of what's happening,
and we want to try to address it. Environmental justice,
obviously is a term that kind of seaks to broaden
the conversation because a lot of people and it's unfortunate
(19:12):
because two things can be true, right, So you can have,
on the one hand, the idea that certain communities are targeted.
There's no question about it. Black communities are targeted, Brown
communities are targeted, Indigenous communities, you are targeted. Low income
communities are targeted. We know it for a fact, you
call it out, be very direct. But what also happens
(19:34):
sometimes is people want to give the impression that we're
providing preferential treatment or we're trying to gain something additional
for these communities at the expense of others, when in reality,
and you know this because you've worked in all these communities,
they are poor white communities too. There are you know,
(19:56):
RV parks and trailer homes and rural areas and farm
communities that are also targeted by these industries. Their workers
aren't protected. The people are in just as bad a
situation as any other group. And so I do like
the idea of having very frank, blunt, targeted conversations with
(20:19):
the people that you're engaging with.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
How has that been for you?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Go ahead, Oh, I was gonna say, yeah, speaking of Yeah,
just trying to you know, the people who have been underserved,
trying to bring them up to be equitable is what
we're trying to do, not at the expense of anyone else.
But I wanted to say too, with the whole Justice
forty initiative, and as you alluded to earlier, a lot
of that money and funding was actually going to benefit
(20:49):
not necessarily you know, black and brown, but you know,
rural white American towns. And I actually did an analysis
here in the city of North Carolina to see where,
you know, well specifically looking trying to find out, you know,
how much of the Justice forty funding actually went to
black businesses. And I couldn't find, you know, that any
(21:11):
of the Justice forty money, by the time Biding Harris
administration was over, had gone to any black businesses here
in this state. So really, you know, all the billions
of dollars you know, being taken away, it really does hurt,
not necessarily, I mean environmentally, yes, it hurts you know,
black communities, but economically, I think you know, white and
(21:35):
rural areas probably are going to be missing out, you know,
or being hurt even further.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
See and when you say that, I honestly don't know
how to feel. Get to help me with this, because
on the one hand, we were told, and it was
touted that these initiatives were put in place to lift
up what we would call historically marginalized communities, which are
(22:04):
at least in America, primarily black and brown. So you know,
there was and I made a big fuss about this
last year when the initiative went out, that they took
the race and the ethnicity indicators out of their tool
that they used to identify the communities and they just
(22:26):
went with you know, climate, they went with the economics,
they went with other major categories, left those out. I
was very upset about that, and I said, hey, you
can't do environmental justice without considering racial and ethnic factors.
But the pushback was always well, the same communities that
(22:47):
are black and brown also deal with these other issues too.
They'll see some money. It shouldn't be an issue. We
don't want the initiative to be undermined by race and ethnicity,
because when you go to court it might not pass
the court's analysis, and it might be taken away all together. Okay, fine,
(23:09):
And so we went through with it. It passed, we celebrated,
we had the you know, white house lawn signings and
all the fun stuff. And I'm thinking, the money's coming
to these places, to the people who needed the most.
Your analysis is telling me it's not.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Now I'm upset.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
But then I go back and now it's twenty twenty
five and they pull it away, and so it's like, well,
wait a minute. I still wanted people to get help.
I just thought it was going to happen differently. Now
you're taking the whole thing away. Now the people who
actually need help aren't getting help either. They happen to
be poor white rural residents, maybe farmers, maybe agricultural workers,
(23:48):
but in any sense, they need help too.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
What are we doing?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
And so now my brain can't compute all the different
issues that are happening all at once. And so how
do you think about it? This kind of stuff? Because
I'm imagining you wanted to have those black businesses lifted
up and they weren't, But you also don't want the
people who were suffering to suffer even more because you
put the money away exactly.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, yeah, and I will say the way EVA kind
of rolled it out at least EVA.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Now there are other USDA agencies.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
I'll talk about you because I'm most familiar with that agency,
But even with USDA, I think the cases the same,
where it really was not black and brown people getting
access to this money.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
In my I suspect in large heart it wasn't.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
But with EVA, I mean they and again being in
the federal contracting space and you know, small businesses and
particularly black businesses, we've been advocating for a long time
that the federal contracting space is set up for you know,
the big boys, the larger entities to be able to
get the funding, and so we've been advocating for you know,
(24:56):
breaking up some of these contracts and make them smaller
so that you know, small businesses like mine for example,
who don't have like a lot of resources can't compete.
But what EPA did in the you know, in the
beginning or up until everything was shut down, was they
were putting out these large contracts and so they went
(25:16):
to large entities that could compete. But this year January
is when like the smaller grants were about to be
rolled out through the Grant Makers Program and the Thriving
Communities grant Makers Program, so you know they were going
to be you know, thousands of small grassroots organizations able
to get access to some finally to some of this
(25:37):
justice wardy funding. So it was uh, you know e
p I wish they would have started with that as
opposed to some of these you know, larger contracts. If
they started with a smaller grant makers funding, that would
have reached more people faster, not you know, not wait
until the end of the administration to try and get
that money out and now it's all gone taken away.
(25:58):
But I do want to go back to the the
tool because you mentioned the s just tool deimate Environmental
Justice Screening Tool. Yes, and I want to mention that
I'm a part of a collaborative we call that HBCU
Environmental Justice Technical Collaborative. Were made up of various researchers,
most of US geography backgrounds across the country who have
(26:21):
HBCU connections, either professors at HBCUs or attended at HBCU.
And I've only been a part of but for about
a year. But doctor Bullard, the father of environmental justice,
reached out to the founders of this HBCU collaborative and
was also making a fuss about race not being a
part of that tool. And so doctor Brullet contracted with
(26:46):
this group that I'm a part of, and they we
developed another another tool that does include race. So luckily,
now even though that you know, just tool is gone,
our tool, the tool that the Heget team is what.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
We're called created, is still available.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
And the Heget team also developed a second tool trying
to track where this funding was going or it you know,
ended up going. And so they did a couple of
case studies for a couple of states to see exactly
you know, who was getting this Justice forty funding. And
so that yeah, just another reason too. While we have
to basically do things ourselves, own our own data, you know,
(27:28):
have data sovereignty in situations like this, which I would
never would have imagined that you know, databases and you know,
data sets and would be taken away. That was not
something that I would have envisioned under this administration.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
But here we are.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
And so luckily, you know, doctor Bullard and the Heget
team had that foresight to create you know, a replica
of this tool but include race in it, and so
now that is.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Still available, okay, And what's that tool called.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
It's called well, there's two. I'm trying to think what
the is. I'll have to look it up because I
don't want to say it incorrectly. But the other one
is like a Justice forty, you know, tracking tool. But
the one that has the race in it, I think
it's just the HBCU see just tool. I think that
might be the name of it.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Okay, I get that to you.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, that's definitely We'll get that and put it in
description of the episode. That's going to be an important
tool because I was wondering what we're going to do
since I mean, ejscreen was just completely scrubbed. Everything on
the EPA site is completely scrubbed of justice information. I'm
not even sure the Social Vulnerability Index is still there.
Not for the CDC. I have to go back and look,
but they've been scrubbing all the data because they don't
(28:41):
even want to know what's happening in the country. And
so does the HBCU tool cover the entire country?
Speaker 4 (28:50):
I do believe it does. Yeah, I think it is.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Okay, perfect, So that might be something that we might
use in our research. Now that the other tools have
been taken away. Yeah, have you used it for any
of your research? Like, how do you feel about the tools,
you know, usefulness and applicability.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Yeah, I haven't had.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
To use the tool necessarily for anything that I've done.
I mean I did. I think I use the c
just tool a couple of times for something. I think
I was looking up energy burden data like last year.
But I yeah, I mean I'm so old fashioned that
the tool in my mind. Yet these tools are view
even like EJ screen and the SBI, you know, there
(29:35):
are viewer tools.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
I'm old fashioned.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
I go and download the data myself and you know,
do my own analysis in ourdis rather than of using
a TOOLIP. If I want something quick, any quick, you know,
a quick look at something, then I would go to
those tools. But to do a deep analysis, I always
found that I had to just go and get the
data myself.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
And do the work.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Okay, And you can do that no matter what's going on,
because that data is always available.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah, even though I mean I thought I heard that
some of the senses data was taken down momentarily, but
I presume it's back up. But so, yeah, I did
hear that early back in January February. Yeah, since its data,
since its dot gog went down, and hopefully when it
came back it was still accurate.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I mean it's always something, It's always something. So I
guess the bottom line for people listening, if you want
detailed justice analysis, deal with the environment called Kebri because
she has this skill and she has the ability to
(30:44):
dig deep no matter what's going on on the surface,
with these indexes and all these other tools. So call
her and get that work done or make sure.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
They do that.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah, Yeah, I mean hopefully it's still out there. I
had to holp my breath a couple of time I
needed some air data and I was like, God, I
hope this help is data is still available. Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
So you mentioned we were talking about environmental justice and
racism earlier, and you were talking about how and you
were kind of just describing it for us. You know,
the governments in industries and they make decisions and they
do these kind of things. From your perspective, how exactly
are these decisions being made?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
How is a.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Large industry ending up in a black, predominantly black neighborhood.
How is a large data center finding its way to
for instance, North Charleston in South Krolina instead of the
city of Charleston, which has a more diverse population. How
is that happening from your vantage point? Is it really
(31:49):
just back room We don't see the deals or do
council members and mayors and governors have something going on?
Is it really just about the money they got the
money and the land?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
How do you understand these decisions being made?
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Yeah, I mean I think we might need to take
a back, go back in history and and think about
where historically Blacks have ended up the land they've they've
ended up on. In a lot of cases, it's usually
has been historically, you know, undesirable land, especially in South Carolina,
the swamp land or down in the low country, you
(32:29):
know land that floods so less desirable land which historically
had low value, and so generation after generation, you know,
black people have lived lived in those spaces. Now you know,
the tables are turn and that land is now because
it's largely coastal, especially along South Carolina coast, you know
(32:49):
there is desirable now, desirable not for not only for
recreation and vacationing, but also for industries and so I
think the answer to the question is that this undesirable
land has less value, is cheaper, and that's what these
companies are looking for. They're looking for cheap land. And
(33:11):
I was in a webinar a couple of weeks ago
and it was about data centers, and that's what they said,
that these data centers are being cited in places where
land is cheap. So you know that's going to be
rural areas in a lot of cases, and there are
a lot of black people in rural America because the
land is cheaper there. They're also going to states where
(33:32):
there's a favorable regulatory climate so they can get away
with pollution.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
And you know, people aren't gonna they're just gonna get
a slap on the risks.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
You know, they might get a small fine maybe, but
you know they can get away with stuff. So again
that's going to be you know, largely these Southern states
where you know there's not a lot of environmental tough
environmental regulation.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
You're not going to go to California and.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Think you can get away with you know, stuff that's
happening in Memphis, for example. So those two you know
things are you know, reasons why these polluters are ending up,
you know, in let's say black areas in particular, because
land is cheap in rural areas, the regulatory climate you know,
is favorable for them to to set up there, and
(34:19):
so they ended up. It comes down to the bottom line,
it's cheaper for them to get started, they save money,
you know, fewer upfront costs associated with purchasing land. And
so sadly, the people that you know generally live in
in those areas.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Yeah, are you know, there are fewer, fewer in number.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
And disengaged, you know, focused on other things, but they're Yeah,
there are plenty of environmental champions though in rural areas.
So I don't want to discount that because there are
a lot of people who take charge and you know,
speak up for their community when something you know, goes
wrong and when polluters come into their areas and start yah,
damaging the environment.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
In public health.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
So hmmm, So we can't really vote our way out
of it or replace leadership because it sounds like the
way that things are set up, it's able to be
continued no matter who's in charge or who is responsible
(35:24):
for governing those communities in those areas. So what what
can we do about that?
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, I mean it's a tough question because you know,
money talks, and you know a lot of these polluters
are especially as it relates to data centers. I mean,
they're promising you know, a lot of investment, a lot
of jobs, and they're getting a lot of tax incentives too,
and so I mean, honestly, it is paint to play.
(35:52):
You know, I'm not deep into public policy, and so
I often looked at California to see, you know, how
they kind of solve problems, especially on the environmental front.
They kind of are the leaders in a lot of
environmental policy. But here in the South, he has a
different situation. And even by state, you know, it's different
(36:14):
to South Carolina is definitely different from North Carolina as
it relates to protecting the environment for sure. So yeah,
I mean it really is a tough tough question to
answer because, yeah, you know, it largely does come down
the money. You know, these companies promise jobs and they
promise economic investment, but as we've seen in a lot
(36:36):
of cases, you know, they don't deliver on those jobs.
They take ten twenty years before they do, and then
they you know, damage and destroy ecosystems and then walk away,
you know what the people.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
Living there having to suffer.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
So so yeah, I just yeah, don't don't have an
answer a good answer for that, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
No, No, I understand. It's a hard one.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Everybody I see, I always ask the same question, what's
the way out? What can we do to make things?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Different?
Speaker 1 (37:09):
People have different ideas, different thoughts. Obviously, organizing is a
big thing, and you know, marching and bringing up the
issue and meetings and demanding accountability, demanding stronger protection.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
It's hard. It's hard to work out here.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Ye, so really is depending on what Yeah, it can
be even harder depending on.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
Where you are.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah. No, So let's talk about that then.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
So we we are from South Carolina. We're from rock Hill.
For those who you don't know, South Carolina is in
the South. Rock Hill is on the border of North
Carolina and South Carolina. I've started calling it South Charlotte
because all the people who work in Charlotte want to
live in rock Hill because it's a little bit cheaper.
(37:57):
And so think about the care line that's thinking about
your work. What are some of the things that you've
seen on the ground that are justice issues in your
opinion that need to be confronted in some way. Just examples.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Yeah, I mean, I guess I should start with you know,
North Carolina, Warren County specifically being the birthplace of the
environmental justice movement. This was in the early to mid eighties,
I think, where the state or some entity was attempting
to dump PCBs polychlorinated biphenels, which Leslie, you probably can
(38:38):
define what those are better than I can, but a contaminant,
a major contaminant. I think they were trying to deposit
them in a landfill there in the soil, that's right,
And so that and the people of the residenc Yeah,
you know, stood up and I think, you know.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
We're trying to block the trucks with their bodies.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
From coming in and dumping these PCBs in their community
community called Afton.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
And so that.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
In the literature is what is coined or cited as
you know, the birth the start of the environmental justice movement.
And so yeah, there's a lot of history you know,
in the in the Carolinas in particular, a lot of
injustices you know, environmentally and otherwise that have happened. That's
you know, one of the most noble ones from the eighties,
(39:25):
but you know, even to date. I mean there's a
large landfill in Samson County, North Carolina, which is kind
of the southeastern part of the state. There are a
lot of you know, injustices around that large the largest
landfill in the state, you know, being there, you know,
adjacent to you know, black community, and is causing so much,
(39:48):
so many nuisances and who knows what is doing to
the water table and whatever else they air you know,
all the different domains. But but yeah, so from east
to west, I mean north to south in the Carolinas
in particular, their issues most recently have been working with
the community in Dylan, who is concerned about air quality.
(40:11):
So the state came in and freed the roads in
their neighborhood with something and and we've set up air
monitors to collect you know, particulate matter readings to see,
you know, what the issue or to characterize the issue,
the air pollution issue, which is their concerned. So yeah,
(40:34):
they're they're countless examples, you know, and yeah, sadly, I
mean they take years to to fix. So from air
and order, you know, they're down in the eastern part
of the state. Their companies like Camors that people in
that area have been complaining about the PI foss issue.
(40:57):
Like I said, there's you name it, you know it
is here somewhere in these states.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah. No, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
When I first started doing research as a professor at
the University of South Carolina, my first thing was looking
at landfills across the state, and so I was able
the publish of article that showed where they were located
and how the populations around landfills became increasingly non white
as you got closer to landfills, and increasingly female headed
(41:27):
households were there as well, and so we could see
all of those things happening. Published that I think it
was at the end of last.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Year, maybe earlier this year.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
But there's definitely a lot of issues environmentally in South Carolina,
and because it's such a diverse state, it's really interesting
to see how rural communities are fairing Black communities, brown communities.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
We have a lot of range and so you can
see the different seas and so.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
Yeah, go ahead, yeah, And I want to mention the
prison population too, which is a demographic that we often
forget about, but there is a large well, I think
it's Kershaw Kershaw County.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I think Kershaw County.
Speaker 4 (42:14):
It's Kershaw, yeah, Kershaw, Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
The large goal mine that is right across the street
from a prison, so I think it's the largest goal
mine on the East Coast is there in Kershaw and.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Right across from a prison.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
I had a family member who was in that prison
and he talked about and this was yeah, not too
long ago. We talked about, you know, the terrible taste
in water that exists at the prison, and who knows
what the air is like. But like, if you look
at an aerial image of of of that that mine,
that goal mine, you can see the scale of it,
(42:49):
and it's yeah, I think that's another area to explore, like,
and there is some there are some researchers who are
looking at you know, these prisons are often located in
areas that are surrounded by environmental injustices as well, So
I don't want to forget about them.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, no, absolutely no, you're right, because I just I
should have mentioned that before, because when I was talking about,
you know, vulnerable communities, I often think about race, think
about ethnicity, think about income, but there are communities that
are just marginalized, just because of who they are, and
I think the prison population is one of them.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
We believe these are the you know, the worst members
of our society, and so we don't really care how
they're treated. We don't care what they're experiencing, and so
we're more than willing to build gold mines, landfills, huge
power plants around them, no concern at all.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Another vulnerable population are undocumented workers, you know, whether they're
immigrants that have come over looking for work, whether people
who have overstayed their visas. Maybe it's children of people
who came over. Because they're undocumented, we aren't concerned about
their well being, and so their work conditions, their living
conditions are usually very, very horrid as a result. And
(44:10):
so I appreciate the reminder because all of these communities
are important and they're meaningful, and we should protect them
just as much as anybody else.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
It doesn't matter who they are.
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