Kathleen Hawk Sawyer Appears Before The Senate To Answer Questions About Epstein's Death

When BOP Director Kathleen Hawk Sawyer testified before the committee in November 2019, she acknowledged she had not been fully briefed on the ongoing investigation into Epstein’s death, which the government had ruled a suicide. She painted the fatal outcome not as the result of any grand conspiracy but as a consequence of chronic understaffing, overworked guards, malfunctioning surveillance cameras, and systemic breakdowns in protocol. Sawyer admitted that some guards were sleeping or failing to conduct mandatory cell checks — the very checks meant to prevent suicides — and said that two officers on duty the night Epstein died were later charged for falsifying records of their rounds. She described the BOP’s recruitment and staffing as having eroded over time, leaving facilities dangerously understaffed just when vigilance was most needed.

Yet lawmakers at the hearing didn’t accept those explanations as sufficient. Senators demanded transparency about whether Epstein’s cellmate removal, the failure to monitor him properly, and the broken cameras could have been avoided. Some suggested the scale of negligence — and the high-profile nature of Epstein’s case — demanded more than internal reforms: they argued for a full accounting to restore public trust. The hearing exposed not only failures in a single case, but structural crisis across the federal prison system — one that critics said left many inmates vulnerable and undermined faith in institutional accountability.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, So we talked about a few days ago

(00:01):
that a criminal indictment was very likely for these guards
who were in charge of watching Epstein the night that
he's quote unquote committed suicide. And lo and behold, here
we are today and that indictment has been served. So,
according to sources, are the funny, right those sources. According
to sources, these two folks, they turned down a plea deal.

(00:25):
I wonder what's up with that. There seems to be
more going on there than we hear about, right, I mean,
why would they turn down this plea deal if it's
obvious that they forged these documents and whatnot? Pretty interesting
part of the case, said, I don't think we're getting
enough information on right now anyway. Our article is from
the USA today and the headline is two federal prison

(00:46):
officers charged with falsifying records and connection with Jeffrey Epstein's suicide.
Two federal prison officers were charged Tuesday with falsifying records
stating they had checked on accused sex trafficker. Accused, No,
not accused. He was more than accused. He was an
actual pedophile. Jeffrey Epstein in the house before he hanged himself.

(01:09):
Allegedly in his Manhattan cell. Federal prosecutors alleged that Tovin
Noel and Michael Thomas, assigned to Epstein's Special Housing unit
at Metropolitan Correctional Center, browsed the Internet, lingered in an
office common area, and appeared to sleep for two hours
when they should have been conducting inmate checks. Noel and
Thomas signed false certifications attesting they had made their required rounds,

(01:31):
according to court records. Prosecutors alleged that no inmate checks
were made from ten thirty pm August ninth to six
thirty am the following morning. That's a whole shift, right,
It's a whole eight hour shift. Nobody checked on him
for their whole shift. How is Why is that? How

(01:53):
could that even occur? I don't care if you were
having a playing a game of risk with your buddy,
playing a board game, and there's no way that for
eight whole hours nobody checks on this guy. Why when
the officers, when the officers discovered Epstein's body during that time,
the officers should have conducted five separate inmate counts in

(02:16):
the high security unit. A review of surveillance video allegedly
showed the two officers asleep at their desks at one
point during the night, according to court documents. Oh, so
they have video surveillance of the desks, but they don't
have surveillance of the cell. So what I gather from
this is, once again, we have to follow the evidence

(02:38):
for ourselves because we can't count on the mainstream media
to do it. So if this is to be to
be believed, then that means that these cameras were working
in the guards area. So that would lead me to
believe that the cameras were working throughout the rest of
the facility. So why wouldn't they be working if they're

(03:00):
are pointing at Epstein's cell just asking As alleged, the
defendants had a duty to ensure the safety and security
of federal inmates in their care at the Metropolitan Correctional Center.
Jeffrey Berman, the US Attorney for the Southern District of
New York, set in a news release instead, they repeatedly
failed to conduct mandated checks on inmates and lied on

(03:21):
official forms to hide their dereliction. Each defendant is charged
with one count of conspiracy conspiring to falsify records. Noel
thirty one is charged with five counts of falsifying records. Thomas,
forty one, is charged with three. The conspiracy charge is
punishable by up to five years in prison. The conspiracy
charge smacks a little odd that they'd slap a conspiracy

(03:44):
charge on these guys, right, Doesn't it seem like just
falsifying records? Where's the conspiracy? So if this falls under
a conspiracy, then you gotta think the whole case falls
under Rico right, right.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Right.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Noel and Thomas pleaded not guilty in Manhattan Federal Court
Tuesday afternoon and were released on the condition that each
would post one hundred thousand dollars bond within a week.
Epstein's sudden death triggered a wave of recriminations from his
many victims, who had anticipated his trial on sex trafficking
and related conspiracy charges. His suicide prompted a leadership's shake

(04:21):
up at the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Attorney General William
Barr put Kathleen Hawk Sawyer in charge and ordered multiple
investigations into the sixty six year old's suicide, focusing on
operations at the Manhattan facility where Epstein was held. Indictments
unsealed as head of prison agency testifies before Congress. As
the charges were unsealed in New York. Hawk Sawyer testified

(04:43):
before the Senate Judiciary, the Senate Judiciary Committee in Washington,
where lawmakers expressed outrage over the security breakdown revealed by
Epstein's suicide. All right, so this was that closed door
hearing we were talking about a few days ago talking
about Ben sass that he was supposedly going to go
hard in the paint. So let's see what sort of
quotes we got here from Senator Sas. Senator Ben Sas,

(05:06):
Republican of Nebraska, called his death a crisis of public
trust with the prison system. You were in the job
because of this crisis, Sas told Hawk Sawyer, repeatedly calling
for an explanation of how the system failed to keep
track of such a high profile inmate. That bastard and
whoa that bastard now won't be able to testify against
his other co conspirators. Prosecutors allege that Epstein sexually exploited

(05:28):
and abused dozens of minor girls at his homes in
Manhattan and Palm Beach, Florida, and at other locations from
at least two thousand and two to two thousand and
five Sas said the charges against the two staffers are overdue.
Heads needed to roll the day Jeffrey Epstein died. He
said the Bureau of Prisons and Department of Justice need
to start giving the public some answers. These arrests are important,

(05:49):
but they're not the end of this. These guards aren't
the only ones who should stand trial. Every one of
Epstein's co conspirators should be spending the rest of their
lives behind bars. Sas said, all right, well, your senator,
mister Sas, make it happen. Put together a task force.
What's stopping you. Put together a task force and go
after these people. You're the one that has the power.

(06:12):
You're the lawmaker. You're the one that has their finger
on the pulse. Supposedly, you're the one that's in DC.
So walk over to the Department of Justice, put together
a task force and go get these guys. Hawk Sawrier
said she couldn't comment on the ongoing criminal investigation and
a review by the Justice Department's Inspector General, but she

(06:32):
acknowledged that prison authorities discovered at least a couple of
other instances in which officers failed to conduct required checks
on inmates and falsified records to show that they had
We don't want those people. We don't want those people
working in federal prisons. She said this incident was a
black eye on the entire Bureau of Prisons. We have

(06:53):
had some bad We have had some bad staff. We
want to get rid of that bad staff. The only
time we ever noticed is when something bad happened. So
you guys don't know how to hire the correct people
who's in charge of the hiring. So basically, whoever's in
charge of the hiring should get fired and bringing somebody
knows what they're doing. This is what I mean about
no accountability. It's great that these guards are getting arrested, right,

(07:15):
but they're just a symptom of the problem. They're not
the problem. We need real answers. Senator Ted Krust, Republican
from Texas, said Epstein's death is a symptom of deeper
problems within the prison system. CRUs called the suicide a
profound indictment of the system, although representatives of Epstein's family
suggested the disgraced financier may not have been murdered. Hawk

(07:38):
Sawyer told lawmakers no evidence supports anything other than suicide,
show Okay, can we see the same evidence you've been
privy to then, because obviously everybody wants to know what's
going on, and we have no evidence, We have nothing.
All we have is your word to go on. We're
supposed to believe you. Nobody even knows who you are.
You've never established any credibility with the public. But we're
just supposed to believe everything that Hawk Soy has to say.

(08:00):
Huh okay. Before New York's chief medical examiner concluded that
Epstein hanged himself with a bed sheet. His death was
shadowed by conspiracy theories suggesting he had been murdered for months,
federal authorities examined the conduct of staffers assigned to Epstein's
unit and how he escaped. Notice, Okay, well that's fine

(08:21):
and well, but the cameras worked where the guards were,
but they didn't work on Epstein's cell. Hmm, pretty interesting. Tuesday,
prosecutors asserted that Noel and Thomas were the only officers
assigned to Epstein's housing unit, and no inmate checks were
conducted for at least eight hours. Okay, pump the brakes.
I thought there were three people that were watching Epstein.
One person that didn't even work in the in the

(08:44):
guard unit. I guess somebody from wherever else in prisons
was there that night as well. Who Why have we
lost track of this person? I'll have to go back
and read those articles, but it's already getting weird. Folks.
We messed up. I messed up. Thomas allegedly told the supervisor,

(09:05):
we didn't do any rounds. Guido Madonno. Guido Madonna, the
Special Agent in charge of the Justice Department's Office of
the Inspector General, said in a written statement that correctional
officers swear an oath to carry out their duties. Oh well, okay,
well they swear to an oath that worked out well.
Making rounds to check on inmates and certifying the accuracy

(09:25):
of logs are critical to ensure the safety and security
of institutions and the well being of inmates. Madonna said,
those who shirked their duties but falsely state they have
completed them placed the institution, fellow employees, inmates, and the
public at risk. And here comes the spin. Are you
guys ready? Prison's plagued by understaffing. Prison union representatives have

(09:47):
long worn that staff shortages and frequent overtime shifts have
taken their toll on officers and compromised security at the
Manhattan facility. Okay, how many other suicides were there at
this facility in the past twenty years? Up, they don't
want to answer that question. I'll leave that for the
audience to go check on one of that. That's your
homework for the night. Let's how many other suicides have

(10:08):
been have happened at the MCC and saved the last well,
we'll say twenty five years at the time. At the
time of Epstein's suicide, allegedly, there were more than thirty
staff vacancies at the facility, said Serene greg local president
of the Prison Workers Union. Prison officials regularly assigned civilian
staffers to work guard duty to plug unfilled officer position,

(10:29):
she said. Ten of the eighteen staffers who were reported
for duty on the midnight to eight am shift, the
one that which Epstein was found dead, we're working overtime.
According to federal prison records, on the previous shift four
pm to midnight, six of the twenty staffers were working overtime.
Oh boo hoo, All right, fine, so no more overtime
for your union employees. They can't handle the job obviously,

(10:50):
So no more overtime for them. We'll bring in other people.
I'm so tired of no accountability.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Oh we were tired. We had to take a nap.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
Aah, give me a break already. After Epstein's death, bar
reassigned the warden at the New York Detention Center, and
prison officials placed Noel, Noel and Thomas on administrative leave.
One of the officers, according to prison records, had worked
multiple overtime shifts before reporting to duty on Epstein's unit.
I don't care. I do not care. That does not

(11:22):
give you. That's not a cover story. Oh I was tired.
I was working overtime. Should I bring my shoes and
my glasses? No Hawk Sawyer acknowledged significant staffing shortages Tuesday,
telling lawmakers that prison officials are working to fill three
thousand vacancies across the system. Many of the prisons, she said,

(11:43):
are aging and need to be repaired. The failure of
old camera systems prompted an effort to replace them at
prisons around the country, including the Manhattan Detention Center. Oh,
but they worked fine where the officers were right, Those
cameras were perfectly fine. After the hearing, Hawk Sawyer issued
a state about the charges, saying I am committed to
the agency and am confident we will restore the public's

(12:04):
trust in US. Epstein removed from suicide Watch three weeks
before he died. Epstein had been found in his jail
cell semi conscious with bruises on his neck that prompted
authorities to put him on suicide Watch. He was removed
from suicide monitoring monitoring days later, which has drawn investigative interest.

(12:24):
Experts on jail suicide told USA Today that an inmate
can be removed from suicide Watch only if a licensed
mental health professional concludes the inmate is no longer at
risk for attempting suicide. Okay, so who approved this? Can
we see the receipts? Can we see the paperwork? You
guys want to see everything about us. You need to
see everything about our taxes, how we spend our money,

(12:46):
how we live our lives. Well, now it's your turn.
Now you're in the spotlight. All right, let's see your paperwork,
license and registration. Please. Removing such a high risk individual
from suicide Watch, it would be critical to do it
in a step down fashion so that there is still
some extra monitoring Lisa Boyski, a clinical psychologist and jail

(13:10):
suicide expert from San Diego, said Boiski said Epstein was
still a high risk for suicide because of the nature
of his crimes, the humiliation he experienced after his arrest,
and his prior suicide attempt. Jack Sciola, who represents some
of the Epstein accusers, said he's pleased to see authorities
investigate the circumstances of his death. I thought they've been
doing that for three months. I thought that's what they

(13:31):
said they were doing.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
They're investigating. They're going to investigate this case. Let me
tell you about the investigation, and we're gonna have Meanwhile,
we all know investigations are where facts go to die.
Forty five years of practicing law, he said, has convinced
me that there are no coincidences. That's what Jack said,

(13:52):
and I happen to believe him, especially in this case,
especially with the circumstances that surround Epstein's death. Look, I'm
not gonna come out and say one way or the other, Oh,
this person is responsible for killing Epstein or I don't know.
I don't have those I don't unfortunately, folks, I do
not have that information. I don't have those facts, And
you guys know, I'm not just gonna I'm not gonna
pedal bs around here.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
That's not how I roll. If I don't have facts,
if I don't have evidence leading me to the proper place,
what I'll do is I'll give you my opinion on
things as we read these articles, of course, But besides that,
I can't prove one way or the other what happened
in that jail cell. But what I can prove is
three months down, three months later after the man's suicide, death,

(14:35):
whatever you want to call it, and we still have
no evidence. What's so hard about producing the videotapes leading
up to a cell. You've obviously reviewed the videotapes of
where the guards were hanging out, and that was just
a mere few feet from his cell. But this camera
is focused on his cell or not working. They just
happened to break that night. I'm sorry, but nobody's buying that.

(14:56):
I'm not buying it, and nobody in America is buying it. Obviously.
We have congressmen talking about it, senators dropping Epstein didn't
kill himself, memes, just about every host on every local
radio TV show. I mean, can we have a little
bit of transparency. Please. Meanwhile, the same people who will
call you a conspiracy theorist are in the middle of

(15:17):
the world's most ridiculous show trials in history. And I
don't care where you fall on the political spectrum with
that either. In less than a year, we're gonna have
elections in this country. These people couldn't wait for a
year to vote this guy out if he's so bad.
Trust in the American people. The American people are going
to make the right decision and the chips are going
to fall where they may on November eighth. But no,

(15:37):
we had to have more kangaroo courts, more distractions from
the things that truly matter to people. No discussions about infrastructure,
no discussions about the real trade deals, no discussions about
Jeffrey Epstein, except behind closed doors. Look, we're tired of
closed doors. We're tired. We're tired of the lies, We're
tired of the bs. Put your cards on the table

(16:00):
and let us see what you have. Where's the evidence
to say that he hung himself? Because there's evidence to
the contrary. So I'm not just gonna believe your narrative.
I'm not gonna believe the same people who gave us
the nine to eleven No answers for nine to eleven,
the same people who gave us the Iraq War, the
same people who gave us the Arab Spring, the same
people who gave us Las Vegas, the same people who

(16:22):
play the same games on a regular basis, no matter
the situation, all to consolidate their power. And they can't
take that. They cannot take it that they're not in
power for one moment. They can't even take four years.
That's too long for them not to have their tentacles
square scurrying around in the bureaucracy. They're just a bunch

(16:46):
of disgusting, disgusting individuals, and that's just the way it goes.
These people have no regard for anything, and they will
do whatever they can possibly do to bury stories like
this that are gonna get the American people fired up
because they're too busy gas lighting you folks. They are
way too busy making you wanna hate your neighbor or

(17:09):
making you want to hate the guy that's commenting on
the Fox News comment board or the CNN forum. Those people.
You know what, before the Internet, nobody had, nobody was
running around talking like this. To each other. Now, all
of a sudden, people have a lot of courage behind
these computer screens, a lot of courage to say a
lot of things. And all of that stems from the
divisiveness in the media getting people riled up. They're not

(17:32):
doing their jobs. They're not acting as a safeguard, they're
not acting in good faith. They're not protecting abused women.
These women went to a this woman. This woman went
to ABC to give them give them an interview, looking
for help. It's basically a plea for help. Will somebody
help me? Is anybody? Does anybody care? No, we don't
know what Jeffrey Epstein is. That's a stupid story. We're

(17:53):
gonna bury that, so you know, please spare me, all right.
The mutts in the media can spare me their crocodile tears,
all right, folks, If you want to get in touch
with me, you can contact me at Bobbycapucci at ProtonMail
dot com. That's b O B B Y C A
p U C C I at ProtonMail dot com. And

(18:14):
if you