January 4, 2026 • 37 mins
Bill Barr’s deposition before Congress on Jeffrey Epstein was a masterclass in calculated deflection. While Barr insisted that Epstein’s death was “absolutely” suicide, he conceded that the prison surveillance system had “blind spots”—a detail that conveniently leaves just enough room for speculation without providing definitive answers. His reliance on flawed or incomplete camera footage, combined with his dismissal of alternative forensic perspectives, came off less like transparency and more like institutional damage control. Instead of holding the Bureau of Prisons accountable, Barr’s narrative positioned the failures as unfortunate but inconsequential, a stance that fails to satisfy the public demand for clarity.
Just as troubling was Barr’s evasiveness when pressed about Donald Trump’s knowledge of Epstein. He admitted to having spoken with Trump about Epstein’s death but couldn’t recall when one of those conversations occurred—an astonishing lapse considering the gravity of the matter. His reasoning that “if there were more to it, it would have leaked” was not only flippant but dismissive of the very real history of suppression, obstruction, and selective disclosure that has defined the Epstein saga. By leaning on institutional trust in a case defined by betrayal of that very trust, Barr’s testimony did little more than reinforce suspicions that the Department of Justice has long been more concerned with containment than accountability.
to contact me:
bobbycapucci@protonmail.com
source:
Barr-Transcript.pdf
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-epstein-chronicles--5003294/support.
Just as troubling was Barr’s evasiveness when pressed about Donald Trump’s knowledge of Epstein. He admitted to having spoken with Trump about Epstein’s death but couldn’t recall when one of those conversations occurred—an astonishing lapse considering the gravity of the matter. His reasoning that “if there were more to it, it would have leaked” was not only flippant but dismissive of the very real history of suppression, obstruction, and selective disclosure that has defined the Epstein saga. By leaning on institutional trust in a case defined by betrayal of that very trust, Barr’s testimony did little more than reinforce suspicions that the Department of Justice has long been more concerned with containment than accountability.
to contact me:
bobbycapucci@protonmail.com
source:
Barr-Transcript.pdf
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-epstein-chronicles--5003294/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Epstein Chronicles. So we have the Bill Barr transcript from
his deposition that he gave to the committee when he
sat down for a talk a few weeks ago. So
in this episode, we're going to begin taking a look
at that transcript and at what Bill Barr had to
(00:21):
say during this interrogation, if you want to call it that.
So obviously Bill Barr is going to be the one
answering the questions, and we have a lot of redactions here,
so if we don't have a name for the person
asking the question, I'll say redacted, and then I'll ask
the question, and then obviously the answers are from Bill
(00:41):
Darth Barr, unless, of course, something changes, and if it does,
I'll make sure I let you know as we're going
through this. All right, So we're going to start with
the examination and we're going to bypass them, swearing them
in by redacted. So the person asking the questions is
redact question. Very briefly, we want to go through your
(01:03):
background and the only two experiences that I think are
relevant today. Where did you attend undergrad in what year
did you graduate? Barr graduated Columbia College in seventy one.
I got my master's from Columbia in seventy three, went
to law school at GW here in Washington at night,
and graduated in nineteen seventy seven. Question, thank you. Answer?
(01:25):
During that time I worked at CIA. Question and then
President HW Bush appointed you to be United States Attorney
General from ninety one to ninety three? Is that correct? Barr? Yes?
I was in the department at the start of his
administration and he ultimately appointed me attorney general. Question and
then President Trump appointed you attorney general in February of
(01:47):
twenty nineteen, and then you left in December of twenty
twenty correct answer, right, I was confirmed in February of
twenty nineteen. Question were you acting prior to your confirmation? Answer?
No question. Moving on to the topic at hand, just
some preliminary questions. Have you ever met mister Epstein? Answer?
(02:08):
Have I? What? Question? Have you ever met Jeffrey Epstein? Barr?
Not to my knowledge. Question I'll pause for a minute,
Miss Crockett, do you mind identifying yourself for the record?
And now we got Jasmin Crockett asking questions? Yes, Jasmin Crockett,
Texas thirty question and then have you ever met Miss
(02:29):
Glenn Maxwell? Answer not to my knowledge. Question in general,
is the Attorney General aware of every federal criminal investigation
that's happening at any given point? Answer no. Question What
sort of cases would the Attorney General be made aware of? Answer? Well,
generally things would percolate. Generally, people would report into the
(02:50):
Deputy Attorney General every morning. I would have a staff
meeting where the deputy participated and his principal staff and
my own staff, and matters that had come that required
my attention would come through that system. Sometimes offices would
directly communicate with me, especially when there was a conflict,
but matters would either come to my attention if there
(03:11):
was a disagreement within the department or if it was
a matter of national importance. Question did jur your staff
closely monitor high profile cases within the United States? Answer?
I think my staff monitored high profile cases and brought
things to my attention that they felt I should be
aware of. Question and then for pretty much the remainder
(03:33):
of the deposition will focus on your time as Attorney
General in the first Trump administration. Answer sure, question do
you have any conversations about Epstein case while you are
attorney general. Answer by bar any conversations. Question Yeah, just
broadly answer yes. Question do you recall when the first
one was Answer? I became at some point, and this
(03:57):
was six years ago, but I became aware that the
Southern District was conducting an investigation. I think it was
a little bit before his arrest, but I can't be
sure that it could have been around the time of
his arrest, but I was aware that they were conducting
an investigation. Now, I don't recall specific discussion surrounding that.
I could tell you what my understanding of what they
(04:19):
were investigating, but I don't remember particular conversations. It's just
my impression of what came up at the time. Question.
Can you describe your general understanding of what they were investigating? Answer? So,
my understanding was that they were investigating whether he committed
trafficking offenses, particularly focusing on his exploitation of young women,
(04:41):
and they were trying to make the case against them.
And in that context, they were also looking at whether
any individuals were accomplices or complicit in that activity, either
as facilitators. As you know, they ultimately went after and
convicted Glenn Maxwell, and I think they were and I
know they were all also looking at whether there was
(05:01):
evidence to charge anyone with participating in trafficking by having
their involvement with the traffic victims. Question, To the best
that you can, can you describe the difference between what
participating in the trafficking would be and what facilitating that
trafficking would be? Answer? Having well, the latter, I mean,
I'm sorry, participation as would be having illicit sex with
(05:25):
a miner a traffic miner question and facilitating answer or
anyone who was trafficking question? Yeah, answer by bar. But
certainly what the focus was on was illicit sexual activity
with a miner. Question? And then what would facilitating be
of I believe miss Maxwell was? And to that bar
(05:45):
cuts off the person asking the question. Answer helping conscript
young girls into Epstein's network of young girls who primarily
were involved in giving the massages and engaged in sexual
activity with them. Question. And then you say, you don't
correct me if I'm wrong. Don't really recall more than
the general conversations at that point in time, answer right, question,
(06:07):
do you recall who those conversations were with or kind
of surrounding the arrest of Epstein in twenty nineteen. Answer, yeah,
it was either before it could have been before the arrest,
but certainly by the time of the arrest I was
aware of it, and it would have been It would
have been the people who normally attend my meeting. It
could have been a conversation with the US attorney, but
(06:29):
I don't remember if it was. Question do you recall
who normally attended those meetings? You might have said earlier,
but answer it would have been the deputy and the
deputy's principal associate, as well as my chief of staff
and sometimes additional members of the staff. And it would
also include from time to time, you know, other people,
other members of the staff who were directly concerned with
(06:51):
the matter. Question do you recall any conversations with the
FBI at that point in time, still sticking to surrounding
his arrest? Answer no, question, And then you said you
might have included the US attorney. Are you referring to
the US attorney for the Southern District of New York
Answer Jeff Berman. Yes. Answer do you recall any conversations
(07:12):
with anyone in the Southern District of Florida that time? Answer?
I don't recall. Question and then do you recall any
conversations with mister alex Acosta at that time. Answer not
not about this case. Question not about Epstein. Answer not
about Epstein. Question Okay, he obviously served in the administration
bar yes, question with you so in other cases Answer yes,
(07:37):
question similar questions, different timeframe and different subject form. Miss Maxwell.
Do you recall any conversations about Miss Maxwell or the
Maxwell case when you were Attorney General? Answer yes, I
can't pinpoint particular discussions. I think once he committed suicide,
you know, the office. I remember being told and agreeing
that the office had to go full boar ahead on
(07:58):
finding other crimes that may have been committed, including looking
for people who are accomplices in some way or complicit
in some way. And her name came up in that
context obviously as a prime person. Question and don't recall
just to avoid the same list of people. But don't
recall specific conversations with anybody regarding the case. Answer. I
may have had some conversations with Berman where he said
(08:21):
in the wake of the suicide that he you know
that the office was very much committed to continuing the case,
getting to the bottom of everything. Question I'm going to
and to that she's cut off or he's cut off
by bar Answer. I would say she disappeared and there
was this embarrassing period where they couldn't locate her, and
(08:42):
you know, at some point I became aware that they
were prepared to indict her and that they couldn't find her.
But aside from that general information, I couldn't recall anything
specific about that question. I believe they eventually found her
in like a cabin in Vermont or something. Answer New
Hampshire question, New Hampshire. Do you recall how they ended
up finding her? Answer? No, I don't. Question. I'm going
(09:04):
to shift ahead in the timeline a little bit to
mister Epstein's death while at MCC in Manhattan. So you
previously stated that you're personally reviewed the security footage from
MCC from August ninth, twenty nineteen, into the morning of
August tenth. We'll put up with the department has since
released just so you can review it. And I just
(09:25):
want to ask you a first question. Does this look
like the security footage that you would have reviewed at
the time. Answer No, I can't remember specifically the security
footage and what the composition of it was. I do
recall that it showed the common area and a portion
of the stairway up to tyrrel. I think it's tyrrel. Question. Yes,
so I'll ask some more specific questions. But this is
(09:47):
about eleven hours that the department released this month or
so ago. And well, we'll look at it schematically. It's
a camera pointed towards the common area of the special
housing unit at MCC. The stairway on the left goes
to a different tier, and then you can see a
very little bit of stairway on the right that goes
to Tier L. Answer, uh huh, question, but you do answer.
(10:12):
I really can't compare it because I can't really remember question. Yeah,
answer exactly what I saw. I remember. What I remember
about what I saw is that the resolution was good
enough that I could see what the guards were up to,
the corrections officers were doing. I mean, not crystal clear,
but I could tell that they were looking at computers
(10:32):
and working on computers and so forth. So I remember
that the resolution was pretty good, and it may have
been it could have been an enhanced or enlarge part
of this. I just don't remember. Question. And to the
best of your recollection, were there any anomalies in the
tape that you reviewed any missing minutes or anything like that.
Answer not that I'm aware of. I was told that
(10:54):
it covered the period from the time he was put
in his cell to the time he was discovered. I
wasn't told of any missing minute and didn't notice any.
Question do you recall viewing other camera angles, like a
camera pointed down to your l or a camera in
the stairwell or anything. Answer? I do remember other footage
(11:15):
looking at other footage as well, but I think some
may have been in the hallways or interesces things like that. Question.
Did the Inspector General end up reviewing mister Epstein's death
investigating Answer? Yeah, question and they found that the camera
pointed directly down l block was transmitting in real time
but not recording to DVR. Answer yeah. Question does that
(11:37):
match your recollection? Answer? That matches my recollection. Let me
just say that, you know, that video came to me
after but a lot of information started coming to me
immediately in the wake of his death, and I was
getting a lot of information sort of real time and
including from the Bureau, And as I found out things,
you know, I started reaching my conclusions and this sort
(11:58):
of came later in my process. Question Okay, answer, it
wasn't the first thing I looked at. Question. Yeah, answer,
I think it took some time of working to get
whatever they were getting to me. So question, I'll try
to cover as much as I can, but we'll start
with the video redacted. I'm going to go ahead and
(12:19):
introduce what will be Exhibit three, just because I think
it'll help in the discussion. All right, folks, we're gonna
wrap up right here, and in the next episode, we're
gonna pick up where we left off. All of the
information that goes with this episode can be found in
the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another
episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking
(12:40):
up where we left off with Bill barr and his
Epstein related deposition. So the exhibit that they show is
a map of the special housing unit, the top tier
of the special housing unit at MCC with the cell
and it's produced by CBS Bill Barry. Yeh question, and
(13:02):
mister Epstein's cell is the one highlighted in red. And
just while we're looking at this and looking at the
camera footage, the camera angle that we're looking at is
a little alcove and kind of the center of the map.
Mister O'Callahan, this is you're representing that redacted about redacted. Yes,
I am, mister O'Callahan. Okay, redacted, and I can pull
(13:24):
the CBS article, mister O'Callahan. I just want to make
sure he's looking at where you're appointing redacted. So the
camera positioned right there, mister O'Callahan, see look at what
redacted is doing redacted. That camera position right here and
pointed towards the common area, mister o callahan, So it's
up here, bar okay, I'm glad, yeah, mister O'Callahan. And
(13:49):
that's a cell bar right, mister callahan, okay, redacted, all right,
I'm going to play thirty ish seconds just so we
can get our bearings on what the movings of the
jail look like at mister O'Callahan. Is Bill Barr's lawyer question.
So just while this is playing, you see what appears
(14:09):
to be corrections officers kind of walking around the common
area going back to the desk. And then there are
specific points I want to point out so that corrections
officers came from what appears to be a blind spot
on the camera towards the right, and that inmate came
from what appears to be a blind spot on the
camera to the right. We can pause it. I understand
(14:30):
we reviewed fifteen seconds of the footage, but based off
that review, do you agree that there is a bit
of a blind spot on this camera blocked by the
stair landing and that cell answer yes, redacted. I'm going
to shift ahead to the nine to twenty mark, so
I will preface this with this seven forty nine pm
on August ninth, twenty nineteen hit play video shown redacted.
(14:54):
So this video shows mister Epstein escorted from escorted by
corrections officers from making a phone call back to his
cell in L Block. So you can see him kind
of go out of the frame and go up those
stairs to L Block. Mister O'Callahan again redacted, you're representing
that that's Epstein walking through redacted? Yes, and O'Callahan you
(15:17):
can't really tell redacted. So is the doj ig and
the FBI the witness meaning bar I'm not going to
challenge it, redacted, okay, And that was going to be
my next is that your recollection of that scene as well,
that around seven to forty nine PM, mister Epstein went
to his cell for the evening answer, I can't actually
(15:40):
say that's my recollection of events that I saw in
the video, which is him being taken to the cell
that was seven forty nine or whatever. Question and then again,
understanding that we watched about ten seconds of that walk
from his phone to his cell. But in addition to
the blind spot of the camera kind off like to
(16:01):
the right, it's also a bit of a blind spot
on the staircase up to L Block. Would you agree
answer on this video, you know, only a portion of
the stairway all the way as reflected, and my recollection
was a portion of the stairway was reflected on the video.
Question that you reviewed as well? Answer yes, question Okay,
(16:21):
do you recall reviewing any video that showed the staircase
in its entirety? Answer no question. Do you recall reviewing
any video that showed L Block in its entirety? Answer
no question. So going back to the diagram and understanding
kind of again, we reviewed all of thirty seconds of
this footage, but I am representing that it's the thirty
(16:42):
seconds that surround his death or surround him. Going back
to his cell. The blind spot also includes this door
on the kind of center of the schematic, which is
an entrance into the special housing unit. And just asking,
based off your experience and everything that you've reviewed, looking
at this, looking at the video, the only video that's
publicly available, is it possible for someone to get up
(17:05):
to mister Epstein's cell while evading that camera? Answer? I
don't believe so. Question you don't believe so? Answer no,
question even though part of the staircase is blocked and
the entire doorway would be blocked. Answer yes, I do
not think it was physically possible for someone else to
go up that stairway. Question and then the question asker
(17:28):
is cut off by bar you, but then he's cut off.
Question at the time you said you believe no one
entered L Block between the time? Answer not just because
of the cameras though. Question uh huh, bar yeah. Question
so what other evidence did you have to support that
statement that no one entered L Block between seven and
(17:49):
fifty ish? And answer? Okay, Well, I know we're starting
with the video, but for me, the video was the
icing on the cake. Okay. Question okay. Answer, So there
was a lot of evidence about you know, a state
of mind, and other physical evidence pointing to suicide, and
also testimonial in records pointing to this. But one aspect
(18:09):
of this is that the shoe itself physically isolated from
the rest of the facility and that it only has
two entrance ways. The primary entrance way has to be
opened remotely by central control, so no one would have
the key for it, and it was my understanding that
that would leave a record of it being opened, so
there was no way to come in that door except
(18:30):
going through central control having it remotely opened. And the
second door the second question, I'm sorry, just the primary
door is the door in the center of the schematic
that appears open in the picture. Is that the primary one?
Mister O'Callahan, he's saying, this one bar the one up
here redacted? Yes, O'Callahan. Are you pointing to the black
(18:52):
rectangular section. Yes, O'Callahan, he's saying, it's that question, which
one is the primary end entrance into the sachu Answer? Well,
I don't recognize the schematic, but from my recollection is
the primary The primary exit is over on the right
hand side. Question okay, answer, and if it's over here,
(19:14):
then I would have to see the schematic. But my
recollection is that you have to come up an elevator
and then you get into a room where you have
to get through the control door that can only be
opened centrally, and then once you get through that, you
come through the door that immediately enters onto the sahu
and that requires a key, and my understanding was that
(19:35):
the key to that was held by the officers inside
the shoe and they would have to come and let
the person in. That's my understanding. So I think that
it was not physically possible in the first instance, well
in my opinion, for someone to come through there. But
otherwise it was also my judgment that the video corroborated
that because number one, it showed the two officers who
(19:56):
were in the shoe, the only ones in the shoe
at the time, did not leave their desk, so they
didn't go to let anyone in question uh huh answer.
And second it was my judgment from what I saw
on the camera and what I looked at, I didn't
think it was possible for someone to get up to
the tier and open the door without being picked up
on cameras. So question opening the door would also potentially
(20:19):
make noise. Answer, Oh, clearly, it's a big, heavy still door.
Question yeah answer, yeah, question, thank you. And then you
said that in the central command had to open one
of the doors, and then a key answer yes, question
located at the guard desk had to open another set
of doors. Right. Question. Did you review the command logs? Answer? No,
(20:45):
I didn't. Question nobody entered. Answer I didn't review them.
No question, Oh, you didn't review the command logs? Are
you aware of the to that the person asking the
question is cut off? Answer? I didn't personally review them.
I was aware that they had judged that it was
not possible for someone to come in. Question are you
(21:06):
aware if anyone reviewed whether or not an entrance or
exit was logged? Answer? I believe the Bureau was looking
at that intensively, the whole issue of whether this could
have been anything other than a suicide. Question Are you
referring to the Bureau of Prisons or the FBI? Answer?
I'm sorry, the FBI question, thank you answer, and the
(21:26):
IG question and they did an almost four year investigation
into this, I think answer the IG did question yeah.
Answer the Bureau was much quicker. Question. Now we're going
to go back back in time based on the evidence
that you reviewed, around six thirty am on August tenth.
I'm not sure they're title, but the individual delivering breakfast
(21:49):
to the inmates attempted deliver breakfast to mister Epstein. He
did not answer his door. He called the guards, and
they found the body and began providing medical care. Does
it sound correct to you to the best of your recollection?
Answer yes, question, and then about an hour later, he
was pronounced dead at a hospital at New York Presbyterian.
(22:09):
I believe in New York. Answer, I know he was
pronounced dead at the hospital. Yeah. Question When were you
first informed of mister Epstein's death? Answer it was Sunday morning.
I was in my study at home, and I got
a call from my chief of staff saying that Epstein
died from an apparent suicide. Question. Do you recall about
how close in time it was to the pronouncement of death. Answer?
(22:34):
I don't recall. It was in the morning, I believe.
Question and it's still your opinion today that mister Epstein
died by suicide. Answer absolutely. Question, Before getting into what
kind of the investigation looked like after that, what information
was flowing to you? Do you know, to the best
of your knowledge, what are the policies and procedures in
(22:55):
place that were in place to ensure that mister Epstein
didn't commit suicide. Answer, well, there had been, as you know,
there had been an attempt at suicide in July, and
based on that they put them under suicide Watch, which
is the most intensive form of monitoring. And when he
was taken off suicide Watch, based on the psychologists at
the MCC making the determination that he could be taken
(23:18):
off that kind of intensive watch, I found out afterward,
you know, his lawyers had been pressing hard for him
to be let out of suicide Watch, and in any event,
he was put on the next level down, which was
I forget exactly the term used for it, but required
that he have a cell mate and that he was
checked on every thirty minutes, in addition to you know,
(23:39):
the other general security systems in place. Those were the
two that applied directly to him that were supposed to
prevent this question. And on understanding suicide watch is very intensive,
requires a lot of staff power. And on suicide watch,
are they provided with clothes that don't tear, the sheets
that don't tear? Answer? I believe that's the case. Question
(24:00):
when you were first provided with a more formal briefing
regarding mister Epstein's death. Answer, I think it came virtually
every day. I found out more information. You know, I
was obviously covering it very quickly and wanted to rule
out anything other than suicide, and so pertinent information was
flowing to me pretty consistently. Question and it was answer.
(24:22):
The FBI conducting an investigation, and the Southern District was
involved in that. I within an hour or minutes of
finding out about it, I directed the IG to have
people in New York go to the scene and conduct
an investigation. Start an investigation. Question and you've already said that,
you know, you reviewed security camera footage. Obviously there was
(24:43):
a previous suicide attempt that probably had psychologist notes and
things that were available to the FBI and BOP to
review and the IG to review. Were there any other
things that you reviewed specifically? Answer? I would review photographs
when people were discussing that were pertinent. I may have seen.
I think I may have been shown logs that were apparently,
(25:04):
you know, erroneously filled out by the corrections officers, things
like that the systems were explained to me. From time
to time, the BOP was also conducting their own investigation,
so there was sort of three investigations going on at once.
Question and it was kind of the culmination of all
this information that was provided to you that led you
to the judgment that it was suicide. Answer? Yes, well,
(25:28):
over time it became clearer and clearer to me that
it was undoubtedly suicide. As I say, the video was
probably the last thing I looked at or you know,
in reaching that conclusion. Question do you recall reviewing any
specific documents during that time period, like the coroner's report? Answer?
I did review the coroner's report. Question I asked this,
(25:50):
but did you review like entry and exit logs from
the SHU Answer? I may have. I saw some records.
I can't remember what they are. To wrap up right here,
and in the next episode, we're going to pick up
where we left off. All of the information that goes
with this episode can be found in the description box.
What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
(26:11):
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
where we left off with Bill Barr and his deposition
before Congress. Question do you recall reviewing any specific documents
during that time period, like the coroner's report. Answer. I
did review the coroner's report. Question did you? I asked this,
(26:33):
but did you review like entry and exit logs for
the shoe Answer? I may have. I saw some records.
I can't remember what they were. Question Okay. The chief
medical examiner at the time stated after examination that Epstein
died by I believe it was described as kneeling hanging,
so not jumping off the top punk, but using leverage
to kind of lean forward. Does that fit your recollection, Barr?
(26:58):
I remember discussing of a kneeling hanging, but I can't
remember what posture he was in at the end question
and answer. They found him with his buttocks facing the
question ground answer ground, So I'm not sure if he
was on his knees at that point. Question but you
hadn't do your recall seeing any evidence that he jumped
off the bunk or otherwise fell. Answer. I think question
(27:23):
versus just kind of and bar cuts her off. No.
I think the evidence was that he hung himself, and
it was essentially close to the modus operandi that he
had used before being put on watch. You know the
same nowses and coming off the top and landing. In
that case, he landed on his knees. Apparently it didn't work.
I just have to interject here, which I hate to
(27:43):
do when we're doing these kinds of episodes, but man,
the whole entire narrative around the first supposed suicide is
bunk absolute bs. Question were you being kept apprized of
the autopsy and its results in sort of real time? Answer? No.
Question do you recall when bar that was conducted by
(28:04):
New York? Question? Do you recall when you first got
briefed on the autopsy? Answer? Well, I heard about it
pretty soon after it came out. Question and at that
point it kind of confirmed to you that the medical
examiner ruled it a suicide. Answer by bar Yes, and
the fact that there were I mean, I think not
only that ruling, but the fact that there was no
(28:25):
sign of a struggle. I mean, he was a fairly
large guy, and the idea that people would go in
there and hang them in that way, with numerous newses
being tied and so forth, without any sign of scuffle
was not plausible. Question. Yeah, I think I remember. I
don't remember which investigation it was in, but I remember
reading like, no, you know skin or fibers under his fingernails?
(28:47):
Answer there was none. Question no like scratch marks anything?
Answer no contusions, any kind of defensive marks? Answer none.
Question is that similar to your bar yes question recollection
bar yes? Question I believe mister Epstein's brother hired a
medical witness to review the autopsy. Answer right. Question the
(29:12):
examiner report named doctor Michael Boden. Answer yes, I see
him occasionally on TV. I've seen him. He frequently comes
into these kinds of situations. Question. I believe he was
described as an expert medical witness in high profile cases.
So answer uh huh. Question take with that what you
will answer? Yes, question, but do you recall doctor Boden
(29:33):
being involved at the time? Answer I remember just reading
news coverage. Well, he came in after I believe, after
the autopsy reached his conclusions and he offered another view
of it. And I remember press reports to that effect.
Question his view which is contrary to the medical examiners,
And again I will say that he is an expert
medical witness, not a medical examiner. Yes he is. Yes,
(29:56):
he is. In fact, Michael Boden has more experience than
any anybody that they had on their team at the time,
So do with that what you will. He's a medical witness,
not a medical examiner. But that Epstein had fractures to
his larnix, and I believe it was three fact fractures,
three different fractures to his hyoid bone in his neck,
(30:16):
and that was described as extremely unusual in suicidal hangings
and more consistent with homicidal strangulation. Do you recall any
conversations about mister Boden's report within the department or with
the FBI? Answer by Barr, I remember conversations about it,
commenting on it. Question did anyone agree with mister Boden's finding?
(30:37):
Answer Bar No, I mean no one expressed agreement during
any of my conversations. Question no one expressed disagreement to you.
Did you understanding the evidence and what it was and
information was flowing really quickly, did you ever see any
evidence it suggested mister Epstein's death was a homicide? Answer No.
On the contrary, I think when you look at the
(30:59):
cumulation of the evidence, including the testimony of individuals, his
state of mind, you know, the whole thing, the process.
You know. One of the things that impressed me was
that it would have required, It would have required people.
It wasn't known until eight o'clock that morning, I believe
that his cellmate was gone, and it wasn't even clearer
during the day whether he'd get a replacement, So there
(31:20):
wasn't much time for people to understand that he was
going to be by himself, very very little time, and
this would have required coordination from probably two dozen people
maybe within the prison. Okay, full stop. Why was Nicholas
Tartaglioni in the cell with Jeffrey Epstein the first time around,
after Nicholas Tartaglioni was already found with contraband in his
(31:41):
cell while he was facing four homicides. Furthermore, we have
no idea who was in that gel cell or in
those cells that were next to Jeffrey Epstein in the shoe.
Nobody's ever come out and said anything, so could somebody
have been planted in there previously to do this? We
got a whole ass rabbit hole still to jump down.
But it's always surface level shit with these people, right,
(32:02):
They never want to get to the actual story. And
all these people were in different groups, you know, the
people who were repairing the cameras, the people who you
know were responsible for opening and closing the door, the
people who are responsible for putting in a new cell,
made things like that. For all that to be coordinated,
it would have required I think, as I say, maybe
(32:24):
two dozen people. Question uh huh so kind of and
I'm not I don't mean to be testifying, but like
in summary, kind of between a state of mind, previous
suicide attempt, and the process in place, in addition to
the coordination it would take to override those processes all
pointed towards the suicide answer by Bar absolutely, even before
(32:45):
you go to the physical possibility of getting into the
shoe and getting up in his cell. Question all right, Bar?
And the fact that there are eyewitnesses on that very
tier of other prisoners, including two right across the way,
who saw no one go in that night. Okay, so
let's hear from them, bring them in front of Congress.
We're just gonna take Bill Barr's word for it. You see,
(33:06):
here's my big problem, folks. I don't trust any of
these people. So them telling me something is not gonna
cut it. Let's see the evidence. Question and they said
they never heard the door open. Answer, right, question and
things like that. To your knowledge, did the FBI ever
investigate Epstein's death as a homicide? Answer? To my knowledge,
(33:27):
no question. Do you know if anyone investigated? Answer? I
think they investigated to determine whether it was a homicide,
but I don't think they ever got to the point
of feeling that this was a homicide. Question they never
the evidence bar cuts her off. I mean it was
a homicide or I mean a suicide? Question? Yeah, answer, yeah, question,
(33:49):
the kind of evidence never swung to more probable answer,
no question. Do you recall anyone investigating it as a
homicide that you were aware of? Answer No, I don't
think anyone got to the point of feeling that it
was a murder. Well, that's a problem right there, because
any death that happens inside of a jail is considered
a homicide until an investigation cracks off. They don't know
(34:12):
what happened, so they can't rule it out as a homicide,
So it's a homicide investigation, right. Question. Going back to
doctor Boden, just very briefly, I know that you said
you recalled generally, you recalled conversations regarding his contrary findings.
Do you recall having any conversations about mister Epstein's broken
learnix and hyoid bones outside of doctor Boden's findings. Answer.
(34:35):
I think I heard it discussed within the department. Question
and to the best of your recollection, the discussions or
that it was still consistent with suicidal hanging. Answer right
that they said they believe the medical examiner was correct.
Question and then you already said this, but I want
to ask it explicitly. You instructed the IG to open
the investigation? Answer? Yes, answer, as soon as I got
(34:59):
off the phone with my chief of staff, I believe
he contacted I asked him to contact the IG immediately.
I know that they're very familiar with Bureau of Prisons
and its processes, and I was told that he had
people up in New York who could get to the
prison right away. Question and then we've talked about mister
Epstein's state of mind an awful lot. And you said
that you or someone reviewed kind of the psychologist notes
(35:21):
from the previous suicide attempt, the reports that are associated
with taking an individual off suicide watch. Do you recall
any other evidence regarding what you were reviewed regarding his
state of mind? Mister Epstein's state of mind. Answer, Well,
you know I was aware of that. You know, he
had tried suicide, which I viewed as an attempt at suicide.
He had done his last will and testament right before.
(35:43):
Question when did you become aware of that one? Answer?
Sometime during the period where I was absorbing information. I
can't pinpoint it, but there was a period of time
where things were being learned and I was finding out
about them if they were pertinent, and he his efforts
to get bail had failed, So he was looking at
a period of time of incarceration in that place, which
(36:04):
I think for him was very difficult. Just to point
out Epstein's lawyers tell us something completely different. And I
do remember the buzz that was caused that Friday, I
believe by the release of documents by the court that
had a lot of salacious material in there about prominent
individuals and so forth, and that caused quite a stir.
And so I think that my judgment was that this
(36:26):
sort of set the stage for and was and he
made the call to his girlfriend. Apparently I found out
early that he that procedures were not followed and that
he was allowed to make an unmonitored call to a
woman who I believe in Belarussia, and who was his
I understood to be or believed to be his girlfriend
at the time, and he made a call to her
(36:47):
at that point. So it seemed important for him to
make a call to her that evening. So let's bring
her in and let's talk to her, let's talk to
doctor Boden. But no, they won't do it, will they.
And so put these together, I think it was consistent
with suicide question. And then during answer he cuts her
off just as to just as to a state of mind.
(37:09):
All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here, and
in the next episode, we're gonna pick up where we
left off. All of the information that goes with this
episode can be found in the description box.
What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Epstein Chronicles. So we have the Bill Barr transcript from
his deposition that he gave to the committee when he
sat down for a talk a few weeks ago. So
in this episode, we're going to begin taking a look
at that transcript and at what Bill Barr had to
(00:21):
say during this interrogation, if you want to call it that.
So obviously Bill Barr is going to be the one
answering the questions, and we have a lot of redactions here,
so if we don't have a name for the person
asking the question, I'll say redacted, and then I'll ask
the question, and then obviously the answers are from Bill
(00:41):
Darth Barr, unless, of course, something changes, and if it does,
I'll make sure I let you know as we're going
through this. All right, So we're going to start with
the examination and we're going to bypass them, swearing them
in by redacted. So the person asking the questions is
redact question. Very briefly, we want to go through your
(01:03):
background and the only two experiences that I think are
relevant today. Where did you attend undergrad in what year
did you graduate? Barr graduated Columbia College in seventy one.
I got my master's from Columbia in seventy three, went
to law school at GW here in Washington at night,
and graduated in nineteen seventy seven. Question, thank you. Answer?
(01:25):
During that time I worked at CIA. Question and then
President HW Bush appointed you to be United States Attorney
General from ninety one to ninety three? Is that correct? Barr? Yes?
I was in the department at the start of his
administration and he ultimately appointed me attorney general. Question and
then President Trump appointed you attorney general in February of
(01:47):
twenty nineteen, and then you left in December of twenty
twenty correct answer, right, I was confirmed in February of
twenty nineteen. Question were you acting prior to your confirmation? Answer?
No question. Moving on to the topic at hand, just
some preliminary questions. Have you ever met mister Epstein? Answer?
(02:08):
Have I? What? Question? Have you ever met Jeffrey Epstein? Barr?
Not to my knowledge. Question I'll pause for a minute,
Miss Crockett, do you mind identifying yourself for the record?
And now we got Jasmin Crockett asking questions? Yes, Jasmin Crockett,
Texas thirty question and then have you ever met Miss
(02:29):
Glenn Maxwell? Answer not to my knowledge. Question in general,
is the Attorney General aware of every federal criminal investigation
that's happening at any given point? Answer no. Question What
sort of cases would the Attorney General be made aware of? Answer? Well,
generally things would percolate. Generally, people would report into the
(02:50):
Deputy Attorney General every morning. I would have a staff
meeting where the deputy participated and his principal staff and
my own staff, and matters that had come that required
my attention would come through that system. Sometimes offices would
directly communicate with me, especially when there was a conflict,
but matters would either come to my attention if there
(03:11):
was a disagreement within the department or if it was
a matter of national importance. Question did jur your staff
closely monitor high profile cases within the United States? Answer?
I think my staff monitored high profile cases and brought
things to my attention that they felt I should be
aware of. Question and then for pretty much the remainder
(03:33):
of the deposition will focus on your time as Attorney
General in the first Trump administration. Answer sure, question do
you have any conversations about Epstein case while you are
attorney general. Answer by bar any conversations. Question Yeah, just
broadly answer yes. Question do you recall when the first
one was Answer? I became at some point, and this
(03:57):
was six years ago, but I became aware that the
Southern District was conducting an investigation. I think it was
a little bit before his arrest, but I can't be
sure that it could have been around the time of
his arrest, but I was aware that they were conducting
an investigation. Now, I don't recall specific discussion surrounding that.
I could tell you what my understanding of what they
(04:19):
were investigating, but I don't remember particular conversations. It's just
my impression of what came up at the time. Question.
Can you describe your general understanding of what they were investigating? Answer? So,
my understanding was that they were investigating whether he committed
trafficking offenses, particularly focusing on his exploitation of young women,
(04:41):
and they were trying to make the case against them.
And in that context, they were also looking at whether
any individuals were accomplices or complicit in that activity, either
as facilitators. As you know, they ultimately went after and
convicted Glenn Maxwell, and I think they were and I
know they were all also looking at whether there was
(05:01):
evidence to charge anyone with participating in trafficking by having
their involvement with the traffic victims. Question, To the best
that you can, can you describe the difference between what
participating in the trafficking would be and what facilitating that
trafficking would be? Answer? Having well, the latter, I mean,
I'm sorry, participation as would be having illicit sex with
(05:25):
a miner a traffic miner question and facilitating answer or
anyone who was trafficking question? Yeah, answer by bar. But
certainly what the focus was on was illicit sexual activity
with a miner. Question? And then what would facilitating be
of I believe miss Maxwell was? And to that bar
(05:45):
cuts off the person asking the question. Answer helping conscript
young girls into Epstein's network of young girls who primarily
were involved in giving the massages and engaged in sexual
activity with them. Question. And then you say, you don't
correct me if I'm wrong. Don't really recall more than
the general conversations at that point in time, answer right, question,
(06:07):
do you recall who those conversations were with or kind
of surrounding the arrest of Epstein in twenty nineteen. Answer, yeah,
it was either before it could have been before the arrest,
but certainly by the time of the arrest I was
aware of it, and it would have been It would
have been the people who normally attend my meeting. It
could have been a conversation with the US attorney, but
(06:29):
I don't remember if it was. Question do you recall
who normally attended those meetings? You might have said earlier,
but answer it would have been the deputy and the
deputy's principal associate, as well as my chief of staff
and sometimes additional members of the staff. And it would
also include from time to time, you know, other people,
other members of the staff who were directly concerned with
(06:51):
the matter. Question do you recall any conversations with the
FBI at that point in time, still sticking to surrounding
his arrest? Answer no, question, And then you said you
might have included the US attorney. Are you referring to
the US attorney for the Southern District of New York
Answer Jeff Berman. Yes. Answer do you recall any conversations
(07:12):
with anyone in the Southern District of Florida that time? Answer?
I don't recall. Question and then do you recall any
conversations with mister alex Acosta at that time. Answer not
not about this case. Question not about Epstein. Answer not
about Epstein. Question Okay, he obviously served in the administration
bar yes, question with you so in other cases Answer yes,
(07:37):
question similar questions, different timeframe and different subject form. Miss Maxwell.
Do you recall any conversations about Miss Maxwell or the
Maxwell case when you were Attorney General? Answer yes, I
can't pinpoint particular discussions. I think once he committed suicide,
you know, the office. I remember being told and agreeing
that the office had to go full boar ahead on
(07:58):
finding other crimes that may have been committed, including looking
for people who are accomplices in some way or complicit
in some way. And her name came up in that
context obviously as a prime person. Question and don't recall
just to avoid the same list of people. But don't
recall specific conversations with anybody regarding the case. Answer. I
may have had some conversations with Berman where he said
(08:21):
in the wake of the suicide that he you know
that the office was very much committed to continuing the case,
getting to the bottom of everything. Question I'm going to
and to that she's cut off or he's cut off
by bar Answer. I would say she disappeared and there
was this embarrassing period where they couldn't locate her, and
(08:42):
you know, at some point I became aware that they
were prepared to indict her and that they couldn't find her.
But aside from that general information, I couldn't recall anything
specific about that question. I believe they eventually found her
in like a cabin in Vermont or something. Answer New
Hampshire question, New Hampshire. Do you recall how they ended
up finding her? Answer? No, I don't. Question. I'm going
(09:04):
to shift ahead in the timeline a little bit to
mister Epstein's death while at MCC in Manhattan. So you
previously stated that you're personally reviewed the security footage from
MCC from August ninth, twenty nineteen, into the morning of
August tenth. We'll put up with the department has since
released just so you can review it. And I just
(09:25):
want to ask you a first question. Does this look
like the security footage that you would have reviewed at
the time. Answer No, I can't remember specifically the security
footage and what the composition of it was. I do
recall that it showed the common area and a portion
of the stairway up to tyrrel. I think it's tyrrel. Question. Yes,
so I'll ask some more specific questions. But this is
(09:47):
about eleven hours that the department released this month or
so ago. And well, we'll look at it schematically. It's
a camera pointed towards the common area of the special
housing unit at MCC. The stairway on the left goes
to a different tier, and then you can see a
very little bit of stairway on the right that goes
to Tier L. Answer, uh huh, question, but you do answer.
(10:12):
I really can't compare it because I can't really remember question. Yeah,
answer exactly what I saw. I remember. What I remember
about what I saw is that the resolution was good
enough that I could see what the guards were up to,
the corrections officers were doing. I mean, not crystal clear,
but I could tell that they were looking at computers
(10:32):
and working on computers and so forth. So I remember
that the resolution was pretty good, and it may have
been it could have been an enhanced or enlarge part
of this. I just don't remember. Question. And to the
best of your recollection, were there any anomalies in the
tape that you reviewed any missing minutes or anything like that.
Answer not that I'm aware of. I was told that
(10:54):
it covered the period from the time he was put
in his cell to the time he was discovered. I
wasn't told of any missing minute and didn't notice any.
Question do you recall viewing other camera angles, like a
camera pointed down to your l or a camera in
the stairwell or anything. Answer? I do remember other footage
(11:15):
looking at other footage as well, but I think some
may have been in the hallways or interesces things like that. Question.
Did the Inspector General end up reviewing mister Epstein's death
investigating Answer? Yeah, question and they found that the camera
pointed directly down l block was transmitting in real time
but not recording to DVR. Answer yeah. Question does that
(11:37):
match your recollection? Answer? That matches my recollection. Let me
just say that, you know, that video came to me
after but a lot of information started coming to me
immediately in the wake of his death, and I was
getting a lot of information sort of real time and
including from the Bureau, And as I found out things,
you know, I started reaching my conclusions and this sort
(11:58):
of came later in my process. Question Okay, answer, it
wasn't the first thing I looked at. Question. Yeah, answer,
I think it took some time of working to get
whatever they were getting to me. So question, I'll try
to cover as much as I can, but we'll start
with the video redacted. I'm going to go ahead and
(12:19):
introduce what will be Exhibit three, just because I think
it'll help in the discussion. All right, folks, we're gonna
wrap up right here, and in the next episode, we're
gonna pick up where we left off. All of the
information that goes with this episode can be found in
the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another
episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking
(12:40):
up where we left off with Bill barr and his
Epstein related deposition. So the exhibit that they show is
a map of the special housing unit, the top tier
of the special housing unit at MCC with the cell
and it's produced by CBS Bill Barry. Yeh question, and
(13:02):
mister Epstein's cell is the one highlighted in red. And
just while we're looking at this and looking at the
camera footage, the camera angle that we're looking at is
a little alcove and kind of the center of the map.
Mister O'Callahan, this is you're representing that redacted about redacted. Yes,
I am, mister O'Callahan. Okay, redacted, and I can pull
(13:24):
the CBS article, mister O'Callahan. I just want to make
sure he's looking at where you're appointing redacted. So the
camera positioned right there, mister O'Callahan, see look at what
redacted is doing redacted. That camera position right here and
pointed towards the common area, mister o callahan, So it's
up here, bar okay, I'm glad, yeah, mister O'Callahan. And
(13:49):
that's a cell bar right, mister callahan, okay, redacted, all right,
I'm going to play thirty ish seconds just so we
can get our bearings on what the movings of the
jail look like at mister O'Callahan. Is Bill Barr's lawyer question.
So just while this is playing, you see what appears
(14:09):
to be corrections officers kind of walking around the common
area going back to the desk. And then there are
specific points I want to point out so that corrections
officers came from what appears to be a blind spot
on the camera towards the right, and that inmate came
from what appears to be a blind spot on the
camera to the right. We can pause it. I understand
(14:30):
we reviewed fifteen seconds of the footage, but based off
that review, do you agree that there is a bit
of a blind spot on this camera blocked by the
stair landing and that cell answer yes, redacted. I'm going
to shift ahead to the nine to twenty mark, so
I will preface this with this seven forty nine pm
on August ninth, twenty nineteen hit play video shown redacted.
(14:54):
So this video shows mister Epstein escorted from escorted by
corrections officers from making a phone call back to his
cell in L Block. So you can see him kind
of go out of the frame and go up those
stairs to L Block. Mister O'Callahan again redacted, you're representing
that that's Epstein walking through redacted? Yes, and O'Callahan you
(15:17):
can't really tell redacted. So is the doj ig and
the FBI the witness meaning bar I'm not going to
challenge it, redacted, okay, And that was going to be
my next is that your recollection of that scene as well,
that around seven to forty nine PM, mister Epstein went
to his cell for the evening answer, I can't actually
(15:40):
say that's my recollection of events that I saw in
the video, which is him being taken to the cell
that was seven forty nine or whatever. Question and then again,
understanding that we watched about ten seconds of that walk
from his phone to his cell. But in addition to
the blind spot of the camera kind off like to
(16:01):
the right, it's also a bit of a blind spot
on the staircase up to L Block. Would you agree
answer on this video, you know, only a portion of
the stairway all the way as reflected, and my recollection
was a portion of the stairway was reflected on the video.
Question that you reviewed as well? Answer yes, question Okay,
(16:21):
do you recall reviewing any video that showed the staircase
in its entirety? Answer no question. Do you recall reviewing
any video that showed L Block in its entirety? Answer
no question. So going back to the diagram and understanding
kind of again, we reviewed all of thirty seconds of
this footage, but I am representing that it's the thirty
(16:42):
seconds that surround his death or surround him. Going back
to his cell. The blind spot also includes this door
on the kind of center of the schematic, which is
an entrance into the special housing unit. And just asking,
based off your experience and everything that you've reviewed, looking
at this, looking at the video, the only video that's
publicly available, is it possible for someone to get up
(17:05):
to mister Epstein's cell while evading that camera? Answer? I
don't believe so. Question you don't believe so? Answer no,
question even though part of the staircase is blocked and
the entire doorway would be blocked. Answer yes, I do
not think it was physically possible for someone else to
go up that stairway. Question and then the question asker
(17:28):
is cut off by bar you, but then he's cut off.
Question at the time you said you believe no one
entered L Block between the time? Answer not just because
of the cameras though. Question uh huh, bar yeah. Question
so what other evidence did you have to support that
statement that no one entered L Block between seven and
(17:49):
fifty ish? And answer? Okay, Well, I know we're starting
with the video, but for me, the video was the
icing on the cake. Okay. Question okay. Answer, So there
was a lot of evidence about you know, a state
of mind, and other physical evidence pointing to suicide, and
also testimonial in records pointing to this. But one aspect
(18:09):
of this is that the shoe itself physically isolated from
the rest of the facility and that it only has
two entrance ways. The primary entrance way has to be
opened remotely by central control, so no one would have
the key for it, and it was my understanding that
that would leave a record of it being opened, so
there was no way to come in that door except
(18:30):
going through central control having it remotely opened. And the
second door the second question, I'm sorry, just the primary
door is the door in the center of the schematic
that appears open in the picture. Is that the primary one?
Mister O'Callahan, he's saying, this one bar the one up
here redacted? Yes, O'Callahan. Are you pointing to the black
(18:52):
rectangular section. Yes, O'Callahan, he's saying, it's that question, which
one is the primary end entrance into the sachu Answer? Well,
I don't recognize the schematic, but from my recollection is
the primary The primary exit is over on the right
hand side. Question okay, answer, and if it's over here,
(19:14):
then I would have to see the schematic. But my
recollection is that you have to come up an elevator
and then you get into a room where you have
to get through the control door that can only be
opened centrally, and then once you get through that, you
come through the door that immediately enters onto the sahu
and that requires a key, and my understanding was that
(19:35):
the key to that was held by the officers inside
the shoe and they would have to come and let
the person in. That's my understanding. So I think that
it was not physically possible in the first instance, well
in my opinion, for someone to come through there. But
otherwise it was also my judgment that the video corroborated
that because number one, it showed the two officers who
(19:56):
were in the shoe, the only ones in the shoe
at the time, did not leave their desk, so they
didn't go to let anyone in question uh huh answer.
And second it was my judgment from what I saw
on the camera and what I looked at, I didn't
think it was possible for someone to get up to
the tier and open the door without being picked up
on cameras. So question opening the door would also potentially
(20:19):
make noise. Answer, Oh, clearly, it's a big, heavy still door.
Question yeah answer, yeah, question, thank you. And then you
said that in the central command had to open one
of the doors, and then a key answer yes, question
located at the guard desk had to open another set
of doors. Right. Question. Did you review the command logs? Answer? No,
(20:45):
I didn't. Question nobody entered. Answer I didn't review them.
No question, Oh, you didn't review the command logs? Are
you aware of the to that the person asking the
question is cut off? Answer? I didn't personally review them.
I was aware that they had judged that it was
not possible for someone to come in. Question are you
(21:06):
aware if anyone reviewed whether or not an entrance or
exit was logged? Answer? I believe the Bureau was looking
at that intensively, the whole issue of whether this could
have been anything other than a suicide. Question Are you
referring to the Bureau of Prisons or the FBI? Answer?
I'm sorry, the FBI question, thank you answer, and the
(21:26):
IG question and they did an almost four year investigation
into this, I think answer the IG did question yeah.
Answer the Bureau was much quicker. Question. Now we're going
to go back back in time based on the evidence
that you reviewed, around six thirty am on August tenth.
I'm not sure they're title, but the individual delivering breakfast
(21:49):
to the inmates attempted deliver breakfast to mister Epstein. He
did not answer his door. He called the guards, and
they found the body and began providing medical care. Does
it sound correct to you to the best of your recollection?
Answer yes, question, and then about an hour later, he
was pronounced dead at a hospital at New York Presbyterian.
(22:09):
I believe in New York. Answer, I know he was
pronounced dead at the hospital. Yeah. Question When were you
first informed of mister Epstein's death? Answer it was Sunday morning.
I was in my study at home, and I got
a call from my chief of staff saying that Epstein
died from an apparent suicide. Question. Do you recall about
how close in time it was to the pronouncement of death. Answer?
(22:34):
I don't recall. It was in the morning, I believe.
Question and it's still your opinion today that mister Epstein
died by suicide. Answer absolutely. Question, Before getting into what
kind of the investigation looked like after that, what information
was flowing to you? Do you know, to the best
of your knowledge, what are the policies and procedures in
(22:55):
place that were in place to ensure that mister Epstein
didn't commit suicide. Answer, well, there had been, as you know,
there had been an attempt at suicide in July, and
based on that they put them under suicide Watch, which
is the most intensive form of monitoring. And when he
was taken off suicide Watch, based on the psychologists at
the MCC making the determination that he could be taken
(23:18):
off that kind of intensive watch, I found out afterward,
you know, his lawyers had been pressing hard for him
to be let out of suicide Watch, and in any event,
he was put on the next level down, which was
I forget exactly the term used for it, but required
that he have a cell mate and that he was
checked on every thirty minutes, in addition to you know,
(23:39):
the other general security systems in place. Those were the
two that applied directly to him that were supposed to
prevent this question. And on understanding suicide watch is very intensive,
requires a lot of staff power. And on suicide watch,
are they provided with clothes that don't tear, the sheets
that don't tear? Answer? I believe that's the case. Question
(24:00):
when you were first provided with a more formal briefing
regarding mister Epstein's death. Answer, I think it came virtually
every day. I found out more information. You know, I
was obviously covering it very quickly and wanted to rule
out anything other than suicide, and so pertinent information was
flowing to me pretty consistently. Question and it was answer.
(24:22):
The FBI conducting an investigation, and the Southern District was
involved in that. I within an hour or minutes of
finding out about it, I directed the IG to have
people in New York go to the scene and conduct
an investigation. Start an investigation. Question and you've already said that,
you know, you reviewed security camera footage. Obviously there was
(24:43):
a previous suicide attempt that probably had psychologist notes and
things that were available to the FBI and BOP to
review and the IG to review. Were there any other
things that you reviewed specifically? Answer? I would review photographs
when people were discussing that were pertinent. I may have seen.
I think I may have been shown logs that were apparently,
(25:04):
you know, erroneously filled out by the corrections officers, things
like that the systems were explained to me. From time
to time, the BOP was also conducting their own investigation,
so there was sort of three investigations going on at once.
Question and it was kind of the culmination of all
this information that was provided to you that led you
to the judgment that it was suicide. Answer? Yes, well,
(25:28):
over time it became clearer and clearer to me that
it was undoubtedly suicide. As I say, the video was
probably the last thing I looked at or you know,
in reaching that conclusion. Question do you recall reviewing any
specific documents during that time period, like the coroner's report? Answer?
I did review the coroner's report. Question I asked this,
(25:50):
but did you review like entry and exit logs from
the SHU Answer? I may have. I saw some records.
I can't remember what they are. To wrap up right here,
and in the next episode, we're going to pick up
where we left off. All of the information that goes
with this episode can be found in the description box.
What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
(26:11):
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
where we left off with Bill Barr and his deposition
before Congress. Question do you recall reviewing any specific documents
during that time period, like the coroner's report. Answer. I
did review the coroner's report. Question did you? I asked this,
(26:33):
but did you review like entry and exit logs for
the shoe Answer? I may have. I saw some records.
I can't remember what they were. Question Okay. The chief
medical examiner at the time stated after examination that Epstein
died by I believe it was described as kneeling hanging,
so not jumping off the top punk, but using leverage
to kind of lean forward. Does that fit your recollection, Barr?
(26:58):
I remember discussing of a kneeling hanging, but I can't
remember what posture he was in at the end question
and answer. They found him with his buttocks facing the
question ground answer ground, So I'm not sure if he
was on his knees at that point. Question but you
hadn't do your recall seeing any evidence that he jumped
off the bunk or otherwise fell. Answer. I think question
(27:23):
versus just kind of and bar cuts her off. No.
I think the evidence was that he hung himself, and
it was essentially close to the modus operandi that he
had used before being put on watch. You know the
same nowses and coming off the top and landing. In
that case, he landed on his knees. Apparently it didn't work.
I just have to interject here, which I hate to
(27:43):
do when we're doing these kinds of episodes, but man,
the whole entire narrative around the first supposed suicide is
bunk absolute bs. Question were you being kept apprized of
the autopsy and its results in sort of real time? Answer? No.
Question do you recall when bar that was conducted by
(28:04):
New York? Question? Do you recall when you first got
briefed on the autopsy? Answer? Well, I heard about it
pretty soon after it came out. Question and at that
point it kind of confirmed to you that the medical
examiner ruled it a suicide. Answer by bar Yes, and
the fact that there were I mean, I think not
only that ruling, but the fact that there was no
(28:25):
sign of a struggle. I mean, he was a fairly
large guy, and the idea that people would go in
there and hang them in that way, with numerous newses
being tied and so forth, without any sign of scuffle
was not plausible. Question. Yeah, I think I remember. I
don't remember which investigation it was in, but I remember
reading like, no, you know skin or fibers under his fingernails?
(28:47):
Answer there was none. Question no like scratch marks anything?
Answer no contusions, any kind of defensive marks? Answer none.
Question is that similar to your bar yes question recollection
bar yes? Question I believe mister Epstein's brother hired a
medical witness to review the autopsy. Answer right. Question the
(29:12):
examiner report named doctor Michael Boden. Answer yes, I see
him occasionally on TV. I've seen him. He frequently comes
into these kinds of situations. Question. I believe he was
described as an expert medical witness in high profile cases.
So answer uh huh. Question take with that what you
will answer? Yes, question, but do you recall doctor Boden
(29:33):
being involved at the time? Answer I remember just reading
news coverage. Well, he came in after I believe, after
the autopsy reached his conclusions and he offered another view
of it. And I remember press reports to that effect.
Question his view which is contrary to the medical examiners,
And again I will say that he is an expert
medical witness, not a medical examiner. Yes he is. Yes,
(29:56):
he is. In fact, Michael Boden has more experience than
any anybody that they had on their team at the time,
So do with that what you will. He's a medical witness,
not a medical examiner. But that Epstein had fractures to
his larnix, and I believe it was three fact fractures,
three different fractures to his hyoid bone in his neck,
(30:16):
and that was described as extremely unusual in suicidal hangings
and more consistent with homicidal strangulation. Do you recall any
conversations about mister Boden's report within the department or with
the FBI? Answer by Barr, I remember conversations about it,
commenting on it. Question did anyone agree with mister Boden's finding?
(30:37):
Answer Bar No, I mean no one expressed agreement during
any of my conversations. Question no one expressed disagreement to you.
Did you understanding the evidence and what it was and
information was flowing really quickly, did you ever see any
evidence it suggested mister Epstein's death was a homicide? Answer No.
On the contrary, I think when you look at the
(30:59):
cumulation of the evidence, including the testimony of individuals, his
state of mind, you know, the whole thing, the process.
You know. One of the things that impressed me was
that it would have required, It would have required people.
It wasn't known until eight o'clock that morning, I believe
that his cellmate was gone, and it wasn't even clearer
during the day whether he'd get a replacement, So there
(31:20):
wasn't much time for people to understand that he was
going to be by himself, very very little time, and
this would have required coordination from probably two dozen people
maybe within the prison. Okay, full stop. Why was Nicholas
Tartaglioni in the cell with Jeffrey Epstein the first time around,
after Nicholas Tartaglioni was already found with contraband in his
(31:41):
cell while he was facing four homicides. Furthermore, we have
no idea who was in that gel cell or in
those cells that were next to Jeffrey Epstein in the shoe.
Nobody's ever come out and said anything, so could somebody
have been planted in there previously to do this? We
got a whole ass rabbit hole still to jump down.
But it's always surface level shit with these people, right,
(32:02):
They never want to get to the actual story. And
all these people were in different groups, you know, the
people who were repairing the cameras, the people who you
know were responsible for opening and closing the door, the
people who are responsible for putting in a new cell,
made things like that. For all that to be coordinated,
it would have required I think, as I say, maybe
(32:24):
two dozen people. Question uh huh so kind of and
I'm not I don't mean to be testifying, but like
in summary, kind of between a state of mind, previous
suicide attempt, and the process in place, in addition to
the coordination it would take to override those processes all
pointed towards the suicide answer by Bar absolutely, even before
(32:45):
you go to the physical possibility of getting into the
shoe and getting up in his cell. Question all right, Bar?
And the fact that there are eyewitnesses on that very
tier of other prisoners, including two right across the way,
who saw no one go in that night. Okay, so
let's hear from them, bring them in front of Congress.
We're just gonna take Bill Barr's word for it. You see,
(33:06):
here's my big problem, folks. I don't trust any of
these people. So them telling me something is not gonna
cut it. Let's see the evidence. Question and they said
they never heard the door open. Answer, right, question and
things like that. To your knowledge, did the FBI ever
investigate Epstein's death as a homicide? Answer? To my knowledge,
(33:27):
no question. Do you know if anyone investigated? Answer? I
think they investigated to determine whether it was a homicide,
but I don't think they ever got to the point
of feeling that this was a homicide. Question they never
the evidence bar cuts her off. I mean it was
a homicide or I mean a suicide? Question? Yeah, answer, yeah, question,
(33:49):
the kind of evidence never swung to more probable answer,
no question. Do you recall anyone investigating it as a
homicide that you were aware of? Answer No, I don't
think anyone got to the point of feeling that it
was a murder. Well, that's a problem right there, because
any death that happens inside of a jail is considered
a homicide until an investigation cracks off. They don't know
(34:12):
what happened, so they can't rule it out as a homicide,
So it's a homicide investigation, right. Question. Going back to
doctor Boden, just very briefly, I know that you said
you recalled generally, you recalled conversations regarding his contrary findings.
Do you recall having any conversations about mister Epstein's broken
learnix and hyoid bones outside of doctor Boden's findings. Answer.
(34:35):
I think I heard it discussed within the department. Question
and to the best of your recollection, the discussions or
that it was still consistent with suicidal hanging. Answer right
that they said they believe the medical examiner was correct.
Question and then you already said this, but I want
to ask it explicitly. You instructed the IG to open
the investigation? Answer? Yes, answer, as soon as I got
(34:59):
off the phone with my chief of staff, I believe
he contacted I asked him to contact the IG immediately.
I know that they're very familiar with Bureau of Prisons
and its processes, and I was told that he had
people up in New York who could get to the
prison right away. Question and then we've talked about mister
Epstein's state of mind an awful lot. And you said
that you or someone reviewed kind of the psychologist notes
(35:21):
from the previous suicide attempt, the reports that are associated
with taking an individual off suicide watch. Do you recall
any other evidence regarding what you were reviewed regarding his
state of mind? Mister Epstein's state of mind. Answer, Well,
you know I was aware of that. You know, he
had tried suicide, which I viewed as an attempt at suicide.
He had done his last will and testament right before.
(35:43):
Question when did you become aware of that one? Answer?
Sometime during the period where I was absorbing information. I
can't pinpoint it, but there was a period of time
where things were being learned and I was finding out
about them if they were pertinent, and he his efforts
to get bail had failed, So he was looking at
a period of time of incarceration in that place, which
(36:04):
I think for him was very difficult. Just to point
out Epstein's lawyers tell us something completely different. And I
do remember the buzz that was caused that Friday, I
believe by the release of documents by the court that
had a lot of salacious material in there about prominent
individuals and so forth, and that caused quite a stir.
And so I think that my judgment was that this
(36:26):
sort of set the stage for and was and he
made the call to his girlfriend. Apparently I found out
early that he that procedures were not followed and that
he was allowed to make an unmonitored call to a
woman who I believe in Belarussia, and who was his
I understood to be or believed to be his girlfriend
at the time, and he made a call to her
(36:47):
at that point. So it seemed important for him to
make a call to her that evening. So let's bring
her in and let's talk to her, let's talk to
doctor Boden. But no, they won't do it, will they.
And so put these together, I think it was consistent
with suicide question. And then during answer he cuts her
off just as to just as to a state of mind.
(37:09):
All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here, and
in the next episode, we're gonna pick up where we
left off. All of the information that goes with this
episode can be found in the description box.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.