January 4, 2026 • 39 mins
Bill Barr’s deposition before Congress on Jeffrey Epstein was a masterclass in calculated deflection. While Barr insisted that Epstein’s death was “absolutely” suicide, he conceded that the prison surveillance system had “blind spots”—a detail that conveniently leaves just enough room for speculation without providing definitive answers. His reliance on flawed or incomplete camera footage, combined with his dismissal of alternative forensic perspectives, came off less like transparency and more like institutional damage control. Instead of holding the Bureau of Prisons accountable, Barr’s narrative positioned the failures as unfortunate but inconsequential, a stance that fails to satisfy the public demand for clarity.
Just as troubling was Barr’s evasiveness when pressed about Donald Trump’s knowledge of Epstein. He admitted to having spoken with Trump about Epstein’s death but couldn’t recall when one of those conversations occurred—an astonishing lapse considering the gravity of the matter. His reasoning that “if there were more to it, it would have leaked” was not only flippant but dismissive of the very real history of suppression, obstruction, and selective disclosure that has defined the Epstein saga. By leaning on institutional trust in a case defined by betrayal of that very trust, Barr’s testimony did little more than reinforce suspicions that the Department of Justice has long been more concerned with containment than accountability.
to contact me:
bobbycapucci@protonmail.com
source:
Barr-Transcript.pdf
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-epstein-chronicles--5003294/support.
Just as troubling was Barr’s evasiveness when pressed about Donald Trump’s knowledge of Epstein. He admitted to having spoken with Trump about Epstein’s death but couldn’t recall when one of those conversations occurred—an astonishing lapse considering the gravity of the matter. His reasoning that “if there were more to it, it would have leaked” was not only flippant but dismissive of the very real history of suppression, obstruction, and selective disclosure that has defined the Epstein saga. By leaning on institutional trust in a case defined by betrayal of that very trust, Barr’s testimony did little more than reinforce suspicions that the Department of Justice has long been more concerned with containment than accountability.
to contact me:
bobbycapucci@protonmail.com
source:
Barr-Transcript.pdf
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-epstein-chronicles--5003294/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
where he left off with Bill Barr and his deposition
before Congress. Question during his speech shortly thereafter at the
Fraternal Order of Police conference on August twelfth, you said
that you learned of serious irregularities that were deeply concerning
(00:22):
at mcc answer, uh huh question do you recall what
the irregularities were? Answer? Well, one, you know, I was
wondering who the person was who made the decision to
take him off suicide watch. He had already attempted suicide,
and for all the reasons, I just stated it was
someone that had to be watched, and he was high,
very high profile, and he would be under pressure to
(00:44):
identify co conspirators. So I think that was one. The
fact that the checks, the thirty minute checks, were not performed,
and I would say that there was nothing apparently unusual
about that. This wasn't like people getting together and saying, okay, tonight,
we're not going to perform the watches. Apparently it was
pretty consistent that they failed to perform the checks. And thirdly,
(01:06):
they didn't place and very importantly that they didn't place
another prisoner in his cell. So I was referring to
those and you know, all these and the camera not
being on that. You know, that's obviously not necessarily directly
relevant to it, but you know, the same way the
others are. But it's still these screw ups happening at
the same time. Question, and that was going to be
(01:27):
my next question. You also described it as a perfect
storm of screw ups. Answer, uh huh question. I think
the exact quote that you're referencing the same things, the
checks not being done, the guards allegedly falsifying the records
regarding answer uh huh question, the checks, the camera's not working.
Also the corrections officers also didn't perform the institutional counts
(01:49):
that night. Answer right, question, those kinds of things, The
perfect storm of screw ups. Is that what you were
referring to, answer right, And that became clearer and clear
as things went by. But I started off with a
state of mind on this thing, like, you know, this
is going to take some explaining, so you know, and
I can see why people would be suspicious more than suspicious.
(02:11):
Question where the IG report came out after your time
as Attorney general in June of twenty twenty three, Bar Yes, question,
were you getting updates from the IG or just the FBI? Answer?
I think my best recollection is that initially I did
get some updates, you know, sort of orienting me to
some of the big facts and factors. But you know,
(02:34):
that sort of dribbled away, and certainly after I left
the department, I wasn't getting anything, but I don't, I can't.
Initially I got some information and that gradually ended. Question.
So the kind of steady stream, as much as it
can be described that way, was more from internal to
the department FBI BOP investigations that you were getting information from,
(02:56):
Bar Yeah, through staff, sometimes through BOP people, through my
own staff who they would talk to, sometimes directly. David Bowditch,
who who was the deputy FBI director and I had
a good relationship and we talked frequently, and even as
time went by during the rest of my tenure, when
something some you know, clickbait type article appeared about something
(03:17):
in the Epstein case, I would sometimes call him and say,
did you guys look at that? And you know, so
I was continuing to pick up information. Question you just mentioned,
David bow Disch Deputy Director of the FBI at the time.
It was reported that you instructed him to keep the
Deputy ag mister Rosen informed every three hours. Does that
sound accurate? Answer? Maybe on the first or second day? Question? Yeah,
(03:41):
it definitely bar cuts her off. I mean initially, did
I say every three hours? Question? That was what was reported,
but you know that that's what's reported. Answer, but wasn't
in my book. Question No answer, Okay, I told him
to keep the Deputy's office advised. You know, I think
probably every day. I doubt I said every three hours,
(04:02):
But if I did say it, that may have been
just for the first few days. Like we need to
know in real time because all these allegations and the
internet was going crazy. Question. Yeah, we just discussed some
of the I'll describe them as kind of security failures
at the time, more maybe caused by low staffing, low budget,
(04:22):
whatever the cause was. There were a number of failures
that occurred between August ninth and August tenth. We've discussed
that mister Epstein attempted suicide on July twenty third, twenty nineteen,
and you said you were you did you become aware
of that after his death or was it prior answer
become aware of what question his attempted suicide in July. Answer,
(04:44):
that's a good question. You know at some point I
obviously became aware of it. It's possible it happened before
his suicide that he was taken off you're saying question,
or that he answered no, I heard about his suicide
question No, that in July, and I mean suicide attempt.
Question You heard about the suicide attempt barr, Yes, question
(05:06):
prior to his eventual death. Answer yes, And I knew
he was put on I knew he was put on
suicide watch question I mean to that she's cut off
by bar. But I don't remember being told that he
was off the watch. I could have been told before
his suicide. My best recollection is that after his suicide,
I was certainly told about the kerfuffle over whether or
(05:28):
not he should be taken off watch question and that
kind of information flowing up to the Attorney General's office.
Was it primarily because mister Apstein was a very high
profile inmate? Answer that he attempted suicide question? Uh huh
answer yes, answer well, yes, question. The Attorney General wouldn't
be notified every time an inmate in BOP custody attempt suicide.
(05:52):
Answer not for an attempt. Question. We discussed him being
put on suicide Watch and kind of what that entailed,
and you just mentioned where I was going next, that
he was removed from watch after twenty four hours, which
I believe is the minimum amount of time that you're
allowed to be on suicide Watch. Answer. I can't remember
(06:12):
exactly how long he was on watch. I was under
the impression it was multiple days, but I don't know. Question.
I'll represent this and I can bring it into the record.
But he was on official suicide Watch for twenty four
hours and then stayed in that cell for about a
week but was no longer on constant monitoring, and then
he was moved back to the shoe Answer. I just
(06:34):
can't remember those details. Question, Okay, Bar, I know he
was on suicide Watch and then he was released from
suicide Watch. Question and you mentioned and I'll get your
thought a kind of kerfuffle around. Bar interrupts her. Yeah,
question whether or not to be removed from suicide Watch.
Can you get into more detail about that? Answer? Well,
(06:57):
what happened and people were filling me in on it
on this because it did not cast either a BOP
or the department in a good light that he was
that someone like this would attempt suicide and then not
be put on suicide Watch. So I was regaled about that,
you know, the arguments and the process. Question okay, and
your a call? Do your re call people advocating for
(07:19):
a longer suicide watch for him? Answer? I don't recall
the details. No question and then answer, you know, I
mean main Justice would not have been involved in that,
because you know, this was a pre trial MCC is
pre trial, and you know, generally the way a pre
trial suspect is handled is monitored by the US Attorney's
(07:39):
Office because they're the ones that have to report to
the judge when the judge's asking questions about you know,
and so I normally wouldn't have been brought into that
something of this profile. I wish I had been. Question
and then the IG kind of went into detail about
going on and taken off suicide Watch. Do you remember
any internal investigation after his death, whether about the decision
(08:03):
to take them off suicide Watch? Answer? Just the IGS,
And yeah, just the IGS. I don't know about the Bureau,
I can't remember. Question and FBI as a bureau in
that case. Answer yes, question Okay, I'm sorry, there's lots
of bureaus. Answer there's the only bureau question. And again,
(08:23):
all of this is the best of your recollection, So
if you don't recall the specifics, that's totally okay. After
he was put back in the special housing unit, according
to his roommate who was interviewed by the IG, he
was provided with extra betting in sheets, a perk that
not very many inmates got. Do you recall conversations about that? Answer?
I don't remember that question? Okay. Shifting to the security cameras,
(08:47):
which we talked about a little bit, but I want
to talk about the circumstances surrounding the cameras a little
bit more. There were eleven or so in or around
the shoe entrance and exits hallways, and we always discussed
the one pointing straight down L Block, and then we
watched the footage from the one pointing into the common area.
There was a DVR failure that resulted in these cameras
(09:10):
working in real time but not recording. Does that do
you recall that answer? It was my understanding that a
number of the cameras were not recording, although they were
still streaming live. Question and the DVR failure was for
a while, had been going on for a while, but
was discovered on August eighth. Does that sound Answer? I
didn't know that at the time, but subsequently found out.
(09:32):
Question and then kind of the process of getting it
back on answer getting it fixed, bar says question getting
it fixed took longer than expected. Answer yes, question is
that right? Answer? Yes, I was not aware of this
and that it was going on. I was aware shortly
after the suicide that the cameras had apparently failed, and
there was an effort that went on for I would
(09:53):
say more than one day. You know of the Bureau
going into with technical experts to try to still capture
some and go over the disc and stuff like that.
Question do you recall the explanation given for the failure
of the cameras? Answer no, I can't remember the details
of it, but I did monitor the technical people who
were working hard on trying to get it, and then
(10:14):
you know, I saw whatever that they had. Question do
you recall seeing any evidence of tampering with the DVR system?
Answer the bureau, I don't think believed it was tampered.
They felt it was there was a non malicious explanation
for it. Question and kind of generally in your discussion
with the FBI and others investigating this, did the lack
(10:37):
of camera recordings have any negative impact on the investigation? Answer?
You know, I mean it made the investigation harder obviously. Yeah. Question,
I mean if the camera down l block had been working,
it would have been an easier investigation. Answer. Yeah, now
it was working, and that's question, Yes, if it had
been recording. Answer, it wasn't. In I'm not sure, but
(11:00):
in my belief is that it was not general knowledge
that they were not recording, and people would have thought
that they were working. Mister O'Callahan. So when you spoke
about the camera failures in answering redacted's questions, the failures
were the recording bar that's then he's cut off. Question, Yes,
and I apologize. I'm trying to be very specific, and
(11:22):
that it was not recording to the DVR. They were
projecting on the security monitors in real time, just not
saving to the DVR. You talk about Another one of
these series of mistakes is the lack of a roommate
that after suicide Watch, the psych department said that he
needed to have a roommate at all times. Do you
recall conversations in that aftermath about why there wasn't a
(11:43):
roommate assigned to his cell? Answer? Yes, question what were
those conversations? Answer? I can't remember the details, but I
actually spent a lot of time on this issue and
had people walk me through, you know, why it was
being released, what's the process, Why did he have to
be released, Who was in charge of that, why did
he get released? And went through all that stuff, and
(12:05):
I went through it in detail. Question and didn't find
to your knowledge, didn't find anything malicious in the timing
of this release? Answer? No question. And you didn't find
anything malicious in that the mcc had not assigned Epstein
a new roommate. Answer. I think that was the judgment
of the FBI after a period of time, and then
that ultimately was the judgment of the IG as well.
(12:27):
That's my recollection. Question. Do you recall what kind of
indications were brought to you that it was just a
mistake to not assign him a roommate. Answer I can't
remember the details of it though. Who struck John? But
there were a lot of people involved who you know,
I told him this. No, he didn't tell me this.
(12:47):
You know, whether this watch officer knew something or whether
they didn't know something, And it was sort of it
was intricate, that's all I can remember. Question, yeah, answer,
But at the end of the day it appeared to
be screwed. All right, We're gonna wrap up right here
and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're
gonna pick up where we left off. All of the
information that goes with this episode can be found in
(13:09):
the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another
episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking
up where we left off with the Bill Barr deposition
given before Congress. Question do you recall what kind of
indications were brought to you that this was just a
mistake to not assign him a roommate? Answer by bar.
(13:32):
I can't remember the details of it though, who struck John?
But there were a lot of people involved who you
know I told him this. No, he didn't tell me this.
You know, whether this watch officer knew something or whether
they didn't know something, And it was sort of it
was intricate. That's all I can remember. Question yeah, answer,
But at the end of the day, it appeared to
(13:53):
be screw ups. Question, and I think that's as you said.
That was the IG's conclusion too, that it was a
lot of word of mouth of this guy is getting
transferred and confusion regarding if it was just going to
trial or permanent transfer. Answer right, question that kind of stuff. Answer,
There were things like that, and then there's you know,
(14:13):
different correctional officer shifts and things and weather, things that
are important are communicated and all that kind of thing.
Question in the course of the investigation, did you ever
go to the MCC answer by bar no question. Did
you ever speak to any of the inmates that were
around mister Epstein at the time? Answer no. Question. Did
(14:35):
you speak to any of his roommates? Answer no, but
I believe they were interviewed and he was told the results. Question.
I have nine minutes left, so I'm going to do
the unmonitored phone call and then we'll go off the
record for this round. You had mentioned earlier and said
that the IG in its review that mister Epstein made
an unmonitored phone call the evening prior to being brought
(14:58):
back to his cell before be where he was before
his death on the tenth do you recall being made
aware of that after the fact? Answer after a suicide? Question?
Uh huh bar yes question? And were you briefed regarding
what happened with the call? Bar along the way. My
recollection is the bureau spent time trying to figure out
who was the recipient and trying to track that person down.
(15:22):
Question and is it answer? And you know, eventually the
only thing I remember it was someone in Belarusha. I
think that's my best recollection question, but with a New
York City area code answer, I don't remember the details.
Question Okay, where are or two the best of your knowledge,
what are the policies for inmates making phone calls to
(15:43):
non attorneys? Answer? You know, I did ask the FBI
what the call was about, what did people? What did
she say? And all that kind of thing. So my
understanding was that the calls like that had to be
monitored and you couldn't make an unmonitored call unless there
was a reason like my lawyer is going to I'm
talking to my lawyer, et cetera. Question And in addition
(16:05):
to being monitored by a corrections officer, these calls are
usually recorded answer yes, question is that correct? Answer? Yes? Question?
Was this call recorded? Answer? No, not that I'm aware of. Question.
The IG did review, and I believe the Southern District
of New York eventually did as well, where individual won
(16:26):
the recipient of the call or her attorney gave a
proffer to the Southern District of New York. Are you
aware of that? Answer? I can't remember. I remember asking.
I think it was boditch what we had discovered about
the call? Question The profet described the call of mister
Epstein saying like there is going to be tough times,
I love you, I'm sorry, that kind of those kinds
(16:48):
of language. Do you recall hearing that kind of read
out of the call? Answer? I don't recall specifics, but
I thought the call was consistent with saying goodbye to someone,
but not telling them you're about to commit suicide. Question
did they ever discover the identity of the recipient? Answer?
I'm not sure, and I couldn't say. By the way,
at that point we had already made up his mind
(17:10):
as to exactly when he was going to do it.
But to me, it was consistent with it. I'm sorry,
what was your question? Question? Did they ever discover the
identity of the recipient? Of the phone call. Answer. I
believe they did. That's my best recollection question. Do you
recall who it was? Answer? No question. I'll ask just
(17:31):
about one person. Do you recall if it was Glenn Maxwell? Answer?
It was not. It was not her question it was not.
Answer no, redacted. That's a good spot. We can go
off the record. Then they go to recess. Now they're
back on the record. Oh callahan, we're on the record.
We're on the record, O'Callahan, which is Barr's lawyer. So
(17:54):
just before we start with your questions, Attorney General Barr
just wanted to clarify two points from the pro testimony.
It makes sense to do it now and obviously won't
count against your time, if that's okay, redacted, Yeah, absolutely,
o callahan. Okay, Bar So, despite your best efforts to
orient me to this floorplan, O'Callahan, he's referring to the
(18:16):
schematic Exhibit three. Bar I was completely turned around on
it and for some reason was discussing it as if
the camera was to the lower left instead of where
it is was, which was to the upper right. And
as I said, the main entrance would be the lower
right of the camera scene and so the door that
council showed me at the far end of this of
(18:38):
the common area is a principal entrance, the primary entrance
to the shoe, Oh Callahan. So just the witness is
indicating the black rectangular box next to the red portion
of mister Epstein sell on the schematic. Barr. The other
thing is that I don't have specific recollection of the
exact time I found out about being taken off of
(18:59):
suicide Watch, but to the best of my recollection, it
was after his suicide, O Callahan. Those are the two
points redacted. Thank you. Examination begins again by redacted question
mister Barr, Good morning. I'm going to proceed chronologically, and
then doing so, I'm going to cover some of the
topics that my majority colleagues did in a previous round,
(19:23):
not to make you repeat yourself, but just to follow
up on some issues and ensure we have a clear record.
And I'll start with the Florida investigation, that is the
investigation into mister Epstein by the US Attorney's Office for
the Southern District of Florida. When did you become aware
of that investigation? Answer? With everyone else according to the
papers while it was going on, Question at the time.
(19:46):
It was the questions interrupted by Barr. Answer when there
was when there was a big outburst about a special
deal and all that kind of stuff. Question so roughly
in the two thousand and seven time frame, Answer whenever
it became public that there was a plea agreement. Question
and do you recall how you became aware of it, Barr?
(20:07):
The newspaper question newspapers Just a question about the resolution
of that investigation. As I'm sure you're aware, mister Epstein
entered into a non prosecution agreement with the US Attorney's
Office in September of two thousand and seven. Among other things,
the agreement bound the United States not to quote institute
any criminal charges against any potential co conspirators of Epstein unquote.
(20:32):
Are you familiar with that agreement, mister O'Callahan, So hold on,
excuse me. Attorney General Barr was under subpoena, and the
scope of the cover letter was about the investigation by
the Department of Justice into Epstein and Maxwell while he
was Attorney General. You're asking about information that he was
not Attorney general, and so I think it's beyond the
scope of what the subpoena called for. Redacted. I don't
(20:55):
think I would agree with that scope, and I think
that the proceeding here today are focused on the das's
investigation concerning mister Epstein generally, and the question I'm asking
now goes to mister Barr's perspective based on his experience
as Attorney General O Callahan which time redacted, which time? Well,
experience as Attorney general both times. Question just based on
(21:18):
your professional perspective, Sir, have you seen a provision in
a plea agreement that bound the United States not to
pursue co conspirators that were unknown at the time the
agreement was entered into Answer? I don't recall having any
inside information or information that wasn't publicly available about those events,
about the investigation in Florida and its ultimate the ultimate
(21:39):
Plea agreement. To the best of my recollection, I knew
what I saw in the papers. I remember at the
time having a reaction because there was a hubbub about it.
I remember looking or thinking about it and delving a
little bit into it. But what happened before I was
Attorney General of the second time? Question the second time,
during either of your tenures as Attorney General, have you
(22:01):
ever seen a comparable provision that had the same effect. Again, answer,
during the time I was Attorney General. I don't recall
seeing a comparable provision. I think the thing that I
didn't like about it was that it took the victim's
elocution rights, and I thought that was pretty aggressive and
I thought it was vulnerable. So that's just my own
(22:22):
thinking when I saw it. Question. I appreciate that. Just
to ask you, miss Crockett, can I jump in really
quickly redacted? Yeah, Miss Crockett, I'm sorry. I just got
to go back to what was just brought up. And
during your tenure, during either time you were Attorney general,
do you recall there ever being a scenario that you
authorized that was similar that disallowed the prosecution of co
(22:46):
conspirators in this type of plead deal. Barr. You know,
I can't specifically remember things that were that I approved,
but I'm not sure that provision sticks out to me
as odd Crockett, Okay, but you can't recall ever approved
anything like that before, right the witness, Right Crockett, thank you?
Back to redacted question. There was discussion during the previous
(23:09):
round of chain of communication with DOJ and between Maine
Justice and US Attorney's Office. I like to ask you
about communication between DOJ and the White House, and again
this is focused on both of your tenures as Attorney General.
How common was it, generally speaking for you to communicate
directly with the President about investigations that the DOJ was handling.
(23:32):
Barr Well, it depends what the investigation was about on Epstein.
I only remember two conversations I had with the President. Question, so,
I could you tell us about those two conversations. Answer?
One was when I heard about the suicide, I called
them up and said, you better brace for this, and
I told them the words to the effect, and I
told them about it, and I told them we were
(23:54):
going to be investigating it very vigorously. And the second one,
I can't say for sure whether it happened before his
suicide during meaning around the time of his arrest, or
whether it happened after his suicide during the continued developments there.
But the topic of Epstein came up in our conversation.
Multiple people were there and sort of the news. It
(24:15):
was commented on being the news of the day, and
the President said something to the effect that he had
broken off with Epstein long ago, and that he had
actually pushed him out of mar A Lago. Question. Okay,
And just to clarify, those were both conversations with President Trump. Answer,
both involved President Trump. Yeah, those are the only two
(24:35):
conversations I can remember where Epstein came up with the
president question. And when you say that you told the
president who the news of the suicide would affect? What
did you mean by that answer? Who would affect? Did
I say that question? I'm sorry, unless I'm misunderstanding your characterization. Answer,
I didn't mean to say that question, Okay. Answer I said,
(24:57):
I told him that he committed suicide and that he
suspected it was apparently suicide. And he had the same
reaction I did, which was, how the hell did that happen?
He's in federal custody and the last everyone knew he
was being carefully watched precisely for that reason. And I
think I conveyed to him that it was appalling and
that we were going to investigate it vigorously, and he
(25:18):
had the same reaction I did, which is going to
certainly generate a lot of conspiracy theories. These are not
his exact words, but that's what I remember about the conversation.
Being effectively maybe words to that effect. Yeah. Question, did
President Trump say anything about the conversation? Answer by Bar
That's all I can recall. Question, So, just to tie
(25:40):
this all together, would I be correct in understanding that
prior to mister Epstein's suicide you did not communicate directly
with President Trump in connection with the Epstein investigation. Answer?
I said that one conversation I recall could have happened
before his suicide, around the time of his arrest, but
my best recollection is it happened later. But those are
the only two conversations I can remember having with the
(26:02):
President directly about Epstein. Mister O'Callahan about Epstein generally, not
the Epstein investigation. Barr, Right, yeah, all right, folks, we're
gonna wrap up right here, and in the next episode,
we're gonna pick up where we left off. All of
the information that goes with this episode can be found
in the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to
(26:23):
another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're
gonna pick up where we left off with Bill Barr
and his deposition given to Congress. Question shifting back to
Florida's investigation, it's my understanding that you accused yourself during
your second tenure as Attorney General from DJ's review of
that prosecution and plea agreement. Is that correct? Answer? No,
(26:47):
I didn't recuse myself. I think in my confirmation hearing
I put that I didn't want to cross that bridge
because I needed to console people about the issue, and
I wasn't sure of the timing of things, and so
you know when things occurred, and so later on when
it became an issue, I had it reviewed and got
the advice of the ethics people in the DOJ, and
(27:08):
I did not recuse myself. Question did not recuse yourself? Answer? Yes,
question and this is the Florida investigation. Answer No, it
was to that he's cut off the Southern District of
New York investigation. Answer. That's the only thing that I
was aware of going on when I was there. Question Okay,
(27:28):
So to clarify, did you have any involvement at all
in the DJ's review of the Florida investigation that took
place during your second tenure. Answer? I don't recall playing
a role in that review in terms of whether it
was proper. I didn't play a role in that review.
I think there was discussion. When New York was moving
forward with the prosecution, people wanted to be careful that
(27:49):
they didn't run a foul of any of the provisions
in that agreement. Question, and I can be more specific.
So it's my understanding that the DOJ's Office of National
Responsibility undertook an investigation in twenty nineteen into the circumstances
surrounding the Florida Plea deal. Answer right, I wasn't hovering
(28:10):
over that or involved in that. I learned about their conclusions,
you know, from when they concluded when they reached them.
Question after they issued the report. Answer I can't remember
exactly when. At some point I learned that OPR was
saying that it was improper. Question have you ever discussed
the Epstein investigation generally with mister Acosta? Answer? I don't
(28:31):
recall discussions of the investigation. I may have around that
there was a lot of publicity around the fact that
he might be pushed out of the administration. I may
have expressed commiseration with them that he was facing that
kind of public challenge, but I didn't discuss the investigation.
Question what was your understanding of the reason that he
was pushed out of the administration. Answer, I don't know.
(28:54):
I think he resigned. I think he resigned, So my
understanding was he resigned so this didn't continent, this issue
didn't continue to hand the administration. That was my recollection
of what happened. Question And to your understanding, did he
resign on his own initiative or was he under pressure
from the White House? Answer? I don't know. I think
(29:14):
it was explained as him stepping down to avoid continued problems,
but I don't know what happened behind the scenes. With
respect to the report that OPR issued, you mentioned that
you took issue with, as I understood it, mister Acosta's
failure to involve the victims in the process. Answer, Well,
my recollection and I haven't looked at this, but my
(29:35):
recollection is that part of it ended up not allowing
the victims to have their say, which is under federal
statute they have the right to do. That's my recollection
of the issue, and so I thought that I think
it's wrong not to let the victims have their say.
And here I also thought it was legal vulnerability, But
that was just me as a private citizen saying, well, gee, wow, question,
(29:58):
I'll represent to you the report also concluded that mister
Acosta's decision to resolve the federal investigation through the NPA
constituted poor judgment in opr's words, among other things, by
resolving the federal investigation before significant investigative steps were completed.
Is that consistent with your understanding? Answer right now, I
(30:20):
don't have a recollection of that question. Mister Acosta reportedly
is stated that he was told that Jeffrey Epstein quote
belongs to intelligence and to leave it alone unquote. Are
you aware of mister Acosta saying that? Answer no other
than what's been reported in articles over the years. Question
do you have any knowledge of mister Epstein having any
ties to any intelligence agency? Answer no question, or of
(30:45):
mister Acosta being told answer, I don't know about any ties.
I have no reason to believe he was working for
the CIA or any intelligence agency, And I'm dubious about
claims like that. Now. Many American businessmen who have foreign
contacts sometimes will talk talk to intelligence agencies to provide
information to them, and the CIA has a unit that
(31:05):
goes around and talks to people who are well connected
and ask some questions. So my supposition when I saw
things about him being connected to US intelligence. Maybe like
other businessmen, he talks to them, but this is not
in my opinion based on what I saw, I didn't
think it was an intelligence operation, and I never received
any information that led me to believe that. Question. Do
(31:28):
you have any idea why mister Acosta would suggest that
it was? Answer? I don't know he did. Whether he did,
wasn't that something attributed something to him? Question that's his
reported statement. Answer? Okay. Question I'll shift gears now and
move on to the Southern District of New York's investigation,
and for the sake of brevity, if it's okay with you,
(31:48):
I'll refer to Southern District of New York as SDNY. Answer. Sure,
That's how I would have refer to it. Question. I
understand you mentioned earlier that you a determination was made
that you would not recuse yourself from the SDNY investigation,
and just to make sure my understanding is clear, that
was based on input from the Ethics Office at DOJ.
(32:10):
Answer that's my recollection. Yeah. Question okay. And do you
recall the rationale for concluding that your continued involvement was
consistent with ethics regulations? Answer? Because I didn't really have
a connection. I wasn't involved in the first investigation. Question
there has been mentioned in the press about your father's
role as the head master of Dalton School in New York.
(32:32):
Was that a consideration in the Ethics Office analysis? Answer? Actually,
I don't even think. I don't know whether I was
aware of that at the time. Obviously not, It's not
pertinent at all. Question. You spoke generally during the previous
round about the nature and extent of your involvement in
the SDNY investigation. I'd like to just delve into that
(32:53):
in a bit more detail if I could. To begin with,
could you describe the allocation of responsibility between yourself and
US Attorney Berman? Answer? Well, the US Attorney all US
attorneys are responsible for pursuing investigations and making prosecutorial judgments. Question. Yeah,
just to clarify, I don't mean generally operationally within DJ
(33:15):
I'm speaking specifically with respect to the Epstein investigation. Barr Well,
this was a case that was within his purview. He
had obviously approved or was involved in, either its launching
or continued under him, and so he was responsible for
conducting the investigation and making the initial prosecutorial judgments. Also,
(33:37):
under the department rules that if he believes there is
a basis for investigating someone who is a prominent person
or a senior political official or whatever, he is supposed
to send an urgent report to my attention. Question what
was the extent during the sdnwise investigation of your interaction
with FBI agents? Answer? During the investigation of it? Question yes,
(34:00):
Epstein investigation. Answer. I would say agents up in New York,
but people at headquarters. After the suicide, I told the
headquarters to make sure that they flooded the zone. That is,
they provided the investigative office, which was the New York
FBI office, all the resources necessary and made sure that
the federal investigation was being done. And Bodich oversaw he's
(34:23):
a deputy in Washington. The actual investigation was carried out
by New York agents. Most of it, I think by
New York agents. I didn't have contact with people up
in New York the agents up in New York. Question
and part bar cuts are off. It's possible that when
I was being briefed, at some point they would put
someone like that on the line to explain something to me.
(34:45):
But I didn't seek out contacts with people and the
people the FBI made available to me. Question within the
FBI headquarters, apart for mister Bodich, was there anyone else
who communicated with directly about the investigation? Answer FBI question Yes, answer,
I'm trying to remember who was at the head of
Criminal Division. I don't recall anyone other than Boditch. I
(35:07):
think I may have had conversations with Chris Ray about it,
sort of what a mess this thing was. Question And
within the SDN, why did you ever communicate directly with
any of the line prosecutors? Answer no, not that I recall.
Question and you spoke in the previous round. As I
understood about being briefed by the DAG at the regular
(35:28):
meetings that were held at Main Justice, you were briefed
by US Attorney Berman as well. Answer, you know, I
think I probably had conversations with Berman, a general conversation,
but I think to the extent that communicated or his
people communicated, it would have been more to the Deputy's office,
and then I would have been told about it. Question
(35:49):
when did your conversation with mister Berman take place? Barr?
You know, I can't say for sure when that was.
All I know is that I became aware of the investigation.
I became aware that there were people that were looking
at the issue of whether or not it would be
permitted under to what extent there are limitations imposed by
Florida Plea Agreement, things like that. And I remember my
(36:11):
best recollection is I had conversations with them after the
suicide where he strongly assured me and made it clear
that this was a priority of the office and that
they would continue pushing ahead. Question and did you ever
discuss with mister Berman any of the conversations you had
with President Trump? Answer no, not that I can recall.
(36:31):
Question and again, in terms of the investigative process, were
you involved at all in the decision surrounding what charges
to bring before the grand jury against mister Epstein? Answer no.
Question did you review the indictment? Answer I can't recall
reviewing the indictment. I might have been shown it. Question
were you to that he cuts her off, but I
(36:53):
don't recall it. Question were you briefed regarding the specific
charges that SDNY intended to bring? Answer? I think I
was told what they were. I don't recall how deep
the conversation was. Question was there ever any disagreement between
you and SDNY over who to charge or what charges
to bring? Answer? I don't remember one. Answer you mean
(37:17):
the first time around the initial indictment against Epstein in
July O'Callahan. Maybe a timeframe would help the witness July O'Callahan,
twenty nineteen. Are we talking twenty nineteen? Redacted? Yes, witness okay.
Question to your knowledge? Did anyone else that mayin justice
disagree with the charges that SDNY intended to bring? Answer?
(37:41):
I don't recall any disagreement. Question in the two conversations
you had with President Trump, did the President express any
views on the investigation? Answer not that I can recall.
No question. Did he ever give you any instruction with
respect to it? Answer no question, or exprest any preference?
Answer no question with respect to the investigation? Answer no
(38:07):
question to your knowledge? Did anyone else at the DOJ
discuss the sdn Y investigation with anyone in the White House?
Answer not, to my knowledge. Question the FBI's investigation. Did
that continue post indictment? Answer the FBI's investigation of the suicide.
Question the FBI's investigation into mister Epstein's crimes. Barr My
(38:29):
understanding is that the investigation was going forward because they
were at the stage looking for people who were complicit
in the trafficking, either by facilitating it or by essentially
exploiting the victims. Question and do you know how long
the FBI's investigation continued. Answer? I think it continued throughout
my tenure. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up
(38:51):
right here, and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
we're going to pick up where we left off. All
of the information that goes with this episode can be
found in the descript can box
What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
where he left off with Bill Barr and his deposition
before Congress. Question during his speech shortly thereafter at the
Fraternal Order of Police conference on August twelfth, you said
that you learned of serious irregularities that were deeply concerning
(00:22):
at mcc answer, uh huh question do you recall what
the irregularities were? Answer? Well, one, you know, I was
wondering who the person was who made the decision to
take him off suicide watch. He had already attempted suicide,
and for all the reasons, I just stated it was
someone that had to be watched, and he was high,
very high profile, and he would be under pressure to
(00:44):
identify co conspirators. So I think that was one. The
fact that the checks, the thirty minute checks, were not performed,
and I would say that there was nothing apparently unusual
about that. This wasn't like people getting together and saying, okay, tonight,
we're not going to perform the watches. Apparently it was
pretty consistent that they failed to perform the checks. And thirdly,
(01:06):
they didn't place and very importantly that they didn't place
another prisoner in his cell. So I was referring to
those and you know, all these and the camera not
being on that. You know, that's obviously not necessarily directly
relevant to it, but you know, the same way the
others are. But it's still these screw ups happening at
the same time. Question, and that was going to be
(01:27):
my next question. You also described it as a perfect
storm of screw ups. Answer, uh huh question. I think
the exact quote that you're referencing the same things, the
checks not being done, the guards allegedly falsifying the records
regarding answer uh huh question, the checks, the camera's not working.
Also the corrections officers also didn't perform the institutional counts
(01:49):
that night. Answer right, question, those kinds of things, The
perfect storm of screw ups. Is that what you were
referring to, answer right, And that became clearer and clear
as things went by. But I started off with a
state of mind on this thing, like, you know, this
is going to take some explaining, so you know, and
I can see why people would be suspicious more than suspicious.
(02:11):
Question where the IG report came out after your time
as Attorney general in June of twenty twenty three, Bar Yes, question,
were you getting updates from the IG or just the FBI? Answer?
I think my best recollection is that initially I did
get some updates, you know, sort of orienting me to
some of the big facts and factors. But you know,
(02:34):
that sort of dribbled away, and certainly after I left
the department, I wasn't getting anything, but I don't, I can't.
Initially I got some information and that gradually ended. Question.
So the kind of steady stream, as much as it
can be described that way, was more from internal to
the department FBI BOP investigations that you were getting information from,
(02:56):
Bar Yeah, through staff, sometimes through BOP people, through my
own staff who they would talk to, sometimes directly. David Bowditch,
who who was the deputy FBI director and I had
a good relationship and we talked frequently, and even as
time went by during the rest of my tenure, when
something some you know, clickbait type article appeared about something
(03:17):
in the Epstein case, I would sometimes call him and say,
did you guys look at that? And you know, so
I was continuing to pick up information. Question you just mentioned,
David bow Disch Deputy Director of the FBI at the time.
It was reported that you instructed him to keep the
Deputy ag mister Rosen informed every three hours. Does that
sound accurate? Answer? Maybe on the first or second day? Question? Yeah,
(03:41):
it definitely bar cuts her off. I mean initially, did
I say every three hours? Question? That was what was reported,
but you know that that's what's reported. Answer, but wasn't
in my book. Question No answer, Okay, I told him
to keep the Deputy's office advised. You know, I think
probably every day. I doubt I said every three hours,
(04:02):
But if I did say it, that may have been
just for the first few days. Like we need to
know in real time because all these allegations and the
internet was going crazy. Question. Yeah, we just discussed some
of the I'll describe them as kind of security failures
at the time, more maybe caused by low staffing, low budget,
(04:22):
whatever the cause was. There were a number of failures
that occurred between August ninth and August tenth. We've discussed
that mister Epstein attempted suicide on July twenty third, twenty nineteen,
and you said you were you did you become aware
of that after his death or was it prior answer
become aware of what question his attempted suicide in July. Answer,
(04:44):
that's a good question. You know at some point I
obviously became aware of it. It's possible it happened before
his suicide that he was taken off you're saying question,
or that he answered no, I heard about his suicide
question No, that in July, and I mean suicide attempt.
Question You heard about the suicide attempt barr, Yes, question
(05:06):
prior to his eventual death. Answer yes, And I knew
he was put on I knew he was put on
suicide watch question I mean to that she's cut off
by bar. But I don't remember being told that he
was off the watch. I could have been told before
his suicide. My best recollection is that after his suicide,
I was certainly told about the kerfuffle over whether or
(05:28):
not he should be taken off watch question and that
kind of information flowing up to the Attorney General's office.
Was it primarily because mister Apstein was a very high
profile inmate? Answer that he attempted suicide question? Uh huh
answer yes, answer well, yes, question. The Attorney General wouldn't
be notified every time an inmate in BOP custody attempt suicide.
(05:52):
Answer not for an attempt. Question. We discussed him being
put on suicide Watch and kind of what that entailed,
and you just mentioned where I was going next, that
he was removed from watch after twenty four hours, which
I believe is the minimum amount of time that you're
allowed to be on suicide Watch. Answer. I can't remember
(06:12):
exactly how long he was on watch. I was under
the impression it was multiple days, but I don't know. Question.
I'll represent this and I can bring it into the record.
But he was on official suicide Watch for twenty four
hours and then stayed in that cell for about a
week but was no longer on constant monitoring, and then
he was moved back to the shoe Answer. I just
(06:34):
can't remember those details. Question, Okay, Bar, I know he
was on suicide Watch and then he was released from
suicide Watch. Question and you mentioned and I'll get your
thought a kind of kerfuffle around. Bar interrupts her. Yeah,
question whether or not to be removed from suicide Watch.
Can you get into more detail about that? Answer? Well,
(06:57):
what happened and people were filling me in on it
on this because it did not cast either a BOP
or the department in a good light that he was
that someone like this would attempt suicide and then not
be put on suicide Watch. So I was regaled about that,
you know, the arguments and the process. Question okay, and
your a call? Do your re call people advocating for
(07:19):
a longer suicide watch for him? Answer? I don't recall
the details. No question and then answer, you know, I
mean main Justice would not have been involved in that,
because you know, this was a pre trial MCC is
pre trial, and you know, generally the way a pre
trial suspect is handled is monitored by the US Attorney's
(07:39):
Office because they're the ones that have to report to
the judge when the judge's asking questions about you know,
and so I normally wouldn't have been brought into that
something of this profile. I wish I had been. Question
and then the IG kind of went into detail about
going on and taken off suicide Watch. Do you remember
any internal investigation after his death, whether about the decision
(08:03):
to take them off suicide Watch? Answer? Just the IGS,
And yeah, just the IGS. I don't know about the Bureau,
I can't remember. Question and FBI as a bureau in
that case. Answer yes, question Okay, I'm sorry, there's lots
of bureaus. Answer there's the only bureau question. And again,
(08:23):
all of this is the best of your recollection, So
if you don't recall the specifics, that's totally okay. After
he was put back in the special housing unit, according
to his roommate who was interviewed by the IG, he
was provided with extra betting in sheets, a perk that
not very many inmates got. Do you recall conversations about that? Answer?
I don't remember that question? Okay. Shifting to the security cameras,
(08:47):
which we talked about a little bit, but I want
to talk about the circumstances surrounding the cameras a little
bit more. There were eleven or so in or around
the shoe entrance and exits hallways, and we always discussed
the one pointing straight down L Block, and then we
watched the footage from the one pointing into the common area.
There was a DVR failure that resulted in these cameras
(09:10):
working in real time but not recording. Does that do
you recall that answer? It was my understanding that a
number of the cameras were not recording, although they were
still streaming live. Question and the DVR failure was for
a while, had been going on for a while, but
was discovered on August eighth. Does that sound Answer? I
didn't know that at the time, but subsequently found out.
(09:32):
Question and then kind of the process of getting it
back on answer getting it fixed, bar says question getting
it fixed took longer than expected. Answer yes, question is
that right? Answer? Yes, I was not aware of this
and that it was going on. I was aware shortly
after the suicide that the cameras had apparently failed, and
there was an effort that went on for I would
(09:53):
say more than one day. You know of the Bureau
going into with technical experts to try to still capture
some and go over the disc and stuff like that.
Question do you recall the explanation given for the failure
of the cameras? Answer no, I can't remember the details
of it, but I did monitor the technical people who
were working hard on trying to get it, and then
(10:14):
you know, I saw whatever that they had. Question do
you recall seeing any evidence of tampering with the DVR system?
Answer the bureau, I don't think believed it was tampered.
They felt it was there was a non malicious explanation
for it. Question and kind of generally in your discussion
with the FBI and others investigating this, did the lack
(10:37):
of camera recordings have any negative impact on the investigation? Answer?
You know, I mean it made the investigation harder obviously. Yeah. Question,
I mean if the camera down l block had been working,
it would have been an easier investigation. Answer. Yeah, now
it was working, and that's question, Yes, if it had
been recording. Answer, it wasn't. In I'm not sure, but
(11:00):
in my belief is that it was not general knowledge
that they were not recording, and people would have thought
that they were working. Mister O'Callahan. So when you spoke
about the camera failures in answering redacted's questions, the failures
were the recording bar that's then he's cut off. Question, Yes,
and I apologize. I'm trying to be very specific, and
(11:22):
that it was not recording to the DVR. They were
projecting on the security monitors in real time, just not
saving to the DVR. You talk about Another one of
these series of mistakes is the lack of a roommate
that after suicide Watch, the psych department said that he
needed to have a roommate at all times. Do you
recall conversations in that aftermath about why there wasn't a
(11:43):
roommate assigned to his cell? Answer? Yes, question what were
those conversations? Answer? I can't remember the details, but I
actually spent a lot of time on this issue and
had people walk me through, you know, why it was
being released, what's the process, Why did he have to
be released, Who was in charge of that, why did
he get released? And went through all that stuff, and
(12:05):
I went through it in detail. Question and didn't find
to your knowledge, didn't find anything malicious in the timing
of this release? Answer? No question. And you didn't find
anything malicious in that the mcc had not assigned Epstein
a new roommate. Answer. I think that was the judgment
of the FBI after a period of time, and then
that ultimately was the judgment of the IG as well.
(12:27):
That's my recollection. Question. Do you recall what kind of
indications were brought to you that it was just a
mistake to not assign him a roommate. Answer I can't
remember the details of it though. Who struck John? But
there were a lot of people involved who you know,
I told him this. No, he didn't tell me this.
(12:47):
You know, whether this watch officer knew something or whether
they didn't know something, And it was sort of it
was intricate, that's all I can remember. Question, yeah, answer,
But at the end of the day it appeared to
be screwed. All right, We're gonna wrap up right here
and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're
gonna pick up where we left off. All of the
information that goes with this episode can be found in
(13:09):
the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another
episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking
up where we left off with the Bill Barr deposition
given before Congress. Question do you recall what kind of
indications were brought to you that this was just a
mistake to not assign him a roommate? Answer by bar.
(13:32):
I can't remember the details of it though, who struck John?
But there were a lot of people involved who you
know I told him this. No, he didn't tell me this.
You know, whether this watch officer knew something or whether
they didn't know something, And it was sort of it
was intricate. That's all I can remember. Question yeah, answer,
But at the end of the day, it appeared to
(13:53):
be screw ups. Question, and I think that's as you said.
That was the IG's conclusion too, that it was a
lot of word of mouth of this guy is getting
transferred and confusion regarding if it was just going to
trial or permanent transfer. Answer right, question that kind of stuff. Answer,
There were things like that, and then there's you know,
(14:13):
different correctional officer shifts and things and weather, things that
are important are communicated and all that kind of thing.
Question in the course of the investigation, did you ever
go to the MCC answer by bar no question. Did
you ever speak to any of the inmates that were
around mister Epstein at the time? Answer no. Question. Did
(14:35):
you speak to any of his roommates? Answer no, but
I believe they were interviewed and he was told the results. Question.
I have nine minutes left, so I'm going to do
the unmonitored phone call and then we'll go off the
record for this round. You had mentioned earlier and said
that the IG in its review that mister Epstein made
an unmonitored phone call the evening prior to being brought
(14:58):
back to his cell before be where he was before
his death on the tenth do you recall being made
aware of that after the fact? Answer after a suicide? Question?
Uh huh bar yes question? And were you briefed regarding
what happened with the call? Bar along the way. My
recollection is the bureau spent time trying to figure out
who was the recipient and trying to track that person down.
(15:22):
Question and is it answer? And you know, eventually the
only thing I remember it was someone in Belarusha. I
think that's my best recollection question, but with a New
York City area code answer, I don't remember the details.
Question Okay, where are or two the best of your knowledge,
what are the policies for inmates making phone calls to
(15:43):
non attorneys? Answer? You know, I did ask the FBI
what the call was about, what did people? What did
she say? And all that kind of thing. So my
understanding was that the calls like that had to be
monitored and you couldn't make an unmonitored call unless there
was a reason like my lawyer is going to I'm
talking to my lawyer, et cetera. Question And in addition
(16:05):
to being monitored by a corrections officer, these calls are
usually recorded answer yes, question is that correct? Answer? Yes? Question?
Was this call recorded? Answer? No, not that I'm aware of. Question.
The IG did review, and I believe the Southern District
of New York eventually did as well, where individual won
(16:26):
the recipient of the call or her attorney gave a
proffer to the Southern District of New York. Are you
aware of that? Answer? I can't remember. I remember asking.
I think it was boditch what we had discovered about
the call? Question The profet described the call of mister
Epstein saying like there is going to be tough times,
I love you, I'm sorry, that kind of those kinds
(16:48):
of language. Do you recall hearing that kind of read
out of the call? Answer? I don't recall specifics, but
I thought the call was consistent with saying goodbye to someone,
but not telling them you're about to commit suicide. Question
did they ever discover the identity of the recipient? Answer?
I'm not sure, and I couldn't say. By the way,
at that point we had already made up his mind
(17:10):
as to exactly when he was going to do it.
But to me, it was consistent with it. I'm sorry,
what was your question? Question? Did they ever discover the
identity of the recipient? Of the phone call. Answer. I
believe they did. That's my best recollection question. Do you
recall who it was? Answer? No question. I'll ask just
(17:31):
about one person. Do you recall if it was Glenn Maxwell? Answer?
It was not. It was not her question it was not.
Answer no, redacted. That's a good spot. We can go
off the record. Then they go to recess. Now they're
back on the record. Oh callahan, we're on the record.
We're on the record, O'Callahan, which is Barr's lawyer. So
(17:54):
just before we start with your questions, Attorney General Barr
just wanted to clarify two points from the pro testimony.
It makes sense to do it now and obviously won't
count against your time, if that's okay, redacted, Yeah, absolutely,
o callahan. Okay, Bar So, despite your best efforts to
orient me to this floorplan, O'Callahan, he's referring to the
(18:16):
schematic Exhibit three. Bar I was completely turned around on
it and for some reason was discussing it as if
the camera was to the lower left instead of where
it is was, which was to the upper right. And
as I said, the main entrance would be the lower
right of the camera scene and so the door that
council showed me at the far end of this of
(18:38):
the common area is a principal entrance, the primary entrance
to the shoe, Oh Callahan. So just the witness is
indicating the black rectangular box next to the red portion
of mister Epstein sell on the schematic. Barr. The other
thing is that I don't have specific recollection of the
exact time I found out about being taken off of
(18:59):
suicide Watch, but to the best of my recollection, it
was after his suicide, O Callahan. Those are the two
points redacted. Thank you. Examination begins again by redacted question
mister Barr, Good morning. I'm going to proceed chronologically, and
then doing so, I'm going to cover some of the
topics that my majority colleagues did in a previous round,
(19:23):
not to make you repeat yourself, but just to follow
up on some issues and ensure we have a clear record.
And I'll start with the Florida investigation, that is the
investigation into mister Epstein by the US Attorney's Office for
the Southern District of Florida. When did you become aware
of that investigation? Answer? With everyone else according to the
papers while it was going on, Question at the time.
(19:46):
It was the questions interrupted by Barr. Answer when there
was when there was a big outburst about a special
deal and all that kind of stuff. Question so roughly
in the two thousand and seven time frame, Answer whenever
it became public that there was a plea agreement. Question
and do you recall how you became aware of it, Barr?
(20:07):
The newspaper question newspapers Just a question about the resolution
of that investigation. As I'm sure you're aware, mister Epstein
entered into a non prosecution agreement with the US Attorney's
Office in September of two thousand and seven. Among other things,
the agreement bound the United States not to quote institute
any criminal charges against any potential co conspirators of Epstein unquote.
(20:32):
Are you familiar with that agreement, mister O'Callahan, So hold on,
excuse me. Attorney General Barr was under subpoena, and the
scope of the cover letter was about the investigation by
the Department of Justice into Epstein and Maxwell while he
was Attorney General. You're asking about information that he was
not Attorney general, and so I think it's beyond the
scope of what the subpoena called for. Redacted. I don't
(20:55):
think I would agree with that scope, and I think
that the proceeding here today are focused on the das's
investigation concerning mister Epstein generally, and the question I'm asking
now goes to mister Barr's perspective based on his experience
as Attorney General O Callahan which time redacted, which time? Well,
experience as Attorney general both times. Question just based on
(21:18):
your professional perspective, Sir, have you seen a provision in
a plea agreement that bound the United States not to
pursue co conspirators that were unknown at the time the
agreement was entered into Answer? I don't recall having any
inside information or information that wasn't publicly available about those events,
about the investigation in Florida and its ultimate the ultimate
(21:39):
Plea agreement. To the best of my recollection, I knew
what I saw in the papers. I remember at the
time having a reaction because there was a hubbub about it.
I remember looking or thinking about it and delving a
little bit into it. But what happened before I was
Attorney General of the second time? Question the second time,
during either of your tenures as Attorney General, have you
(22:01):
ever seen a comparable provision that had the same effect. Again, answer,
during the time I was Attorney General. I don't recall
seeing a comparable provision. I think the thing that I
didn't like about it was that it took the victim's
elocution rights, and I thought that was pretty aggressive and
I thought it was vulnerable. So that's just my own
(22:22):
thinking when I saw it. Question. I appreciate that. Just
to ask you, miss Crockett, can I jump in really
quickly redacted? Yeah, Miss Crockett, I'm sorry. I just got
to go back to what was just brought up. And
during your tenure, during either time you were Attorney general,
do you recall there ever being a scenario that you
authorized that was similar that disallowed the prosecution of co
(22:46):
conspirators in this type of plead deal. Barr. You know,
I can't specifically remember things that were that I approved,
but I'm not sure that provision sticks out to me
as odd Crockett, Okay, but you can't recall ever approved
anything like that before, right the witness, Right Crockett, thank you?
Back to redacted question. There was discussion during the previous
(23:09):
round of chain of communication with DOJ and between Maine
Justice and US Attorney's Office. I like to ask you
about communication between DOJ and the White House, and again
this is focused on both of your tenures as Attorney General.
How common was it, generally speaking for you to communicate
directly with the President about investigations that the DOJ was handling.
(23:32):
Barr Well, it depends what the investigation was about on Epstein.
I only remember two conversations I had with the President. Question, so,
I could you tell us about those two conversations. Answer?
One was when I heard about the suicide, I called
them up and said, you better brace for this, and
I told them the words to the effect, and I
told them about it, and I told them we were
(23:54):
going to be investigating it very vigorously. And the second one,
I can't say for sure whether it happened before his
suicide during meaning around the time of his arrest, or
whether it happened after his suicide during the continued developments there.
But the topic of Epstein came up in our conversation.
Multiple people were there and sort of the news. It
(24:15):
was commented on being the news of the day, and
the President said something to the effect that he had
broken off with Epstein long ago, and that he had
actually pushed him out of mar A Lago. Question. Okay,
And just to clarify, those were both conversations with President Trump. Answer,
both involved President Trump. Yeah, those are the only two
(24:35):
conversations I can remember where Epstein came up with the
president question. And when you say that you told the
president who the news of the suicide would affect? What
did you mean by that answer? Who would affect? Did
I say that question? I'm sorry, unless I'm misunderstanding your characterization. Answer,
I didn't mean to say that question, Okay. Answer I said,
(24:57):
I told him that he committed suicide and that he
suspected it was apparently suicide. And he had the same
reaction I did, which was, how the hell did that happen?
He's in federal custody and the last everyone knew he
was being carefully watched precisely for that reason. And I
think I conveyed to him that it was appalling and
that we were going to investigate it vigorously, and he
(25:18):
had the same reaction I did, which is going to
certainly generate a lot of conspiracy theories. These are not
his exact words, but that's what I remember about the conversation.
Being effectively maybe words to that effect. Yeah. Question, did
President Trump say anything about the conversation? Answer by Bar
That's all I can recall. Question, So, just to tie
(25:40):
this all together, would I be correct in understanding that
prior to mister Epstein's suicide you did not communicate directly
with President Trump in connection with the Epstein investigation. Answer?
I said that one conversation I recall could have happened
before his suicide, around the time of his arrest, but
my best recollection is it happened later. But those are
the only two conversations I can remember having with the
(26:02):
President directly about Epstein. Mister O'Callahan about Epstein generally, not
the Epstein investigation. Barr, Right, yeah, all right, folks, we're
gonna wrap up right here, and in the next episode,
we're gonna pick up where we left off. All of
the information that goes with this episode can be found
in the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to
(26:23):
another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're
gonna pick up where we left off with Bill Barr
and his deposition given to Congress. Question shifting back to
Florida's investigation, it's my understanding that you accused yourself during
your second tenure as Attorney General from DJ's review of
that prosecution and plea agreement. Is that correct? Answer? No,
(26:47):
I didn't recuse myself. I think in my confirmation hearing
I put that I didn't want to cross that bridge
because I needed to console people about the issue, and
I wasn't sure of the timing of things, and so
you know when things occurred, and so later on when
it became an issue, I had it reviewed and got
the advice of the ethics people in the DOJ, and
(27:08):
I did not recuse myself. Question did not recuse yourself? Answer? Yes,
question and this is the Florida investigation. Answer No, it
was to that he's cut off the Southern District of
New York investigation. Answer. That's the only thing that I
was aware of going on when I was there. Question Okay,
(27:28):
So to clarify, did you have any involvement at all
in the DJ's review of the Florida investigation that took
place during your second tenure. Answer? I don't recall playing
a role in that review in terms of whether it
was proper. I didn't play a role in that review.
I think there was discussion. When New York was moving
forward with the prosecution, people wanted to be careful that
(27:49):
they didn't run a foul of any of the provisions
in that agreement. Question, and I can be more specific.
So it's my understanding that the DOJ's Office of National
Responsibility undertook an investigation in twenty nineteen into the circumstances
surrounding the Florida Plea deal. Answer right, I wasn't hovering
(28:10):
over that or involved in that. I learned about their conclusions,
you know, from when they concluded when they reached them.
Question after they issued the report. Answer I can't remember
exactly when. At some point I learned that OPR was
saying that it was improper. Question have you ever discussed
the Epstein investigation generally with mister Acosta? Answer? I don't
(28:31):
recall discussions of the investigation. I may have around that
there was a lot of publicity around the fact that
he might be pushed out of the administration. I may
have expressed commiseration with them that he was facing that
kind of public challenge, but I didn't discuss the investigation.
Question what was your understanding of the reason that he
was pushed out of the administration. Answer, I don't know.
(28:54):
I think he resigned. I think he resigned, So my
understanding was he resigned so this didn't continent, this issue
didn't continue to hand the administration. That was my recollection
of what happened. Question And to your understanding, did he
resign on his own initiative or was he under pressure
from the White House? Answer? I don't know. I think
(29:14):
it was explained as him stepping down to avoid continued problems,
but I don't know what happened behind the scenes. With
respect to the report that OPR issued, you mentioned that
you took issue with, as I understood it, mister Acosta's
failure to involve the victims in the process. Answer, Well,
my recollection and I haven't looked at this, but my
(29:35):
recollection is that part of it ended up not allowing
the victims to have their say, which is under federal
statute they have the right to do. That's my recollection
of the issue, and so I thought that I think
it's wrong not to let the victims have their say.
And here I also thought it was legal vulnerability, But
that was just me as a private citizen saying, well, gee, wow, question,
(29:58):
I'll represent to you the report also concluded that mister
Acosta's decision to resolve the federal investigation through the NPA
constituted poor judgment in opr's words, among other things, by
resolving the federal investigation before significant investigative steps were completed.
Is that consistent with your understanding? Answer right now, I
(30:20):
don't have a recollection of that question. Mister Acosta reportedly
is stated that he was told that Jeffrey Epstein quote
belongs to intelligence and to leave it alone unquote. Are
you aware of mister Acosta saying that? Answer no other
than what's been reported in articles over the years. Question
do you have any knowledge of mister Epstein having any
ties to any intelligence agency? Answer no question, or of
(30:45):
mister Acosta being told answer, I don't know about any ties.
I have no reason to believe he was working for
the CIA or any intelligence agency, And I'm dubious about
claims like that. Now. Many American businessmen who have foreign
contacts sometimes will talk talk to intelligence agencies to provide
information to them, and the CIA has a unit that
(31:05):
goes around and talks to people who are well connected
and ask some questions. So my supposition when I saw
things about him being connected to US intelligence. Maybe like
other businessmen, he talks to them, but this is not
in my opinion based on what I saw, I didn't
think it was an intelligence operation, and I never received
any information that led me to believe that. Question. Do
(31:28):
you have any idea why mister Acosta would suggest that
it was? Answer? I don't know he did. Whether he did,
wasn't that something attributed something to him? Question that's his
reported statement. Answer? Okay. Question I'll shift gears now and
move on to the Southern District of New York's investigation,
and for the sake of brevity, if it's okay with you,
(31:48):
I'll refer to Southern District of New York as SDNY. Answer. Sure,
That's how I would have refer to it. Question. I
understand you mentioned earlier that you a determination was made
that you would not recuse yourself from the SDNY investigation,
and just to make sure my understanding is clear, that
was based on input from the Ethics Office at DOJ.
(32:10):
Answer that's my recollection. Yeah. Question okay. And do you
recall the rationale for concluding that your continued involvement was
consistent with ethics regulations? Answer? Because I didn't really have
a connection. I wasn't involved in the first investigation. Question
there has been mentioned in the press about your father's
role as the head master of Dalton School in New York.
(32:32):
Was that a consideration in the Ethics Office analysis? Answer? Actually,
I don't even think. I don't know whether I was
aware of that at the time. Obviously not, It's not
pertinent at all. Question. You spoke generally during the previous
round about the nature and extent of your involvement in
the SDNY investigation. I'd like to just delve into that
(32:53):
in a bit more detail if I could. To begin with,
could you describe the allocation of responsibility between yourself and
US Attorney Berman? Answer? Well, the US Attorney all US
attorneys are responsible for pursuing investigations and making prosecutorial judgments. Question. Yeah,
just to clarify, I don't mean generally operationally within DJ
(33:15):
I'm speaking specifically with respect to the Epstein investigation. Barr Well,
this was a case that was within his purview. He
had obviously approved or was involved in, either its launching
or continued under him, and so he was responsible for
conducting the investigation and making the initial prosecutorial judgments. Also,
(33:37):
under the department rules that if he believes there is
a basis for investigating someone who is a prominent person
or a senior political official or whatever, he is supposed
to send an urgent report to my attention. Question what
was the extent during the sdnwise investigation of your interaction
with FBI agents? Answer? During the investigation of it? Question yes,
(34:00):
Epstein investigation. Answer. I would say agents up in New York,
but people at headquarters. After the suicide, I told the
headquarters to make sure that they flooded the zone. That is,
they provided the investigative office, which was the New York
FBI office, all the resources necessary and made sure that
the federal investigation was being done. And Bodich oversaw he's
(34:23):
a deputy in Washington. The actual investigation was carried out
by New York agents. Most of it, I think by
New York agents. I didn't have contact with people up
in New York the agents up in New York. Question
and part bar cuts are off. It's possible that when
I was being briefed, at some point they would put
someone like that on the line to explain something to me.
(34:45):
But I didn't seek out contacts with people and the
people the FBI made available to me. Question within the
FBI headquarters, apart for mister Bodich, was there anyone else
who communicated with directly about the investigation? Answer FBI question Yes, answer,
I'm trying to remember who was at the head of
Criminal Division. I don't recall anyone other than Boditch. I
(35:07):
think I may have had conversations with Chris Ray about it,
sort of what a mess this thing was. Question And
within the SDN, why did you ever communicate directly with
any of the line prosecutors? Answer no, not that I recall.
Question and you spoke in the previous round. As I
understood about being briefed by the DAG at the regular
(35:28):
meetings that were held at Main Justice, you were briefed
by US Attorney Berman as well. Answer, you know, I
think I probably had conversations with Berman, a general conversation,
but I think to the extent that communicated or his
people communicated, it would have been more to the Deputy's office,
and then I would have been told about it. Question
(35:49):
when did your conversation with mister Berman take place? Barr?
You know, I can't say for sure when that was.
All I know is that I became aware of the investigation.
I became aware that there were people that were looking
at the issue of whether or not it would be
permitted under to what extent there are limitations imposed by
Florida Plea Agreement, things like that. And I remember my
(36:11):
best recollection is I had conversations with them after the
suicide where he strongly assured me and made it clear
that this was a priority of the office and that
they would continue pushing ahead. Question and did you ever
discuss with mister Berman any of the conversations you had
with President Trump? Answer no, not that I can recall.
(36:31):
Question and again, in terms of the investigative process, were
you involved at all in the decision surrounding what charges
to bring before the grand jury against mister Epstein? Answer no.
Question did you review the indictment? Answer I can't recall
reviewing the indictment. I might have been shown it. Question
were you to that he cuts her off, but I
(36:53):
don't recall it. Question were you briefed regarding the specific
charges that SDNY intended to bring? Answer? I think I
was told what they were. I don't recall how deep
the conversation was. Question was there ever any disagreement between
you and SDNY over who to charge or what charges
to bring? Answer? I don't remember one. Answer you mean
(37:17):
the first time around the initial indictment against Epstein in
July O'Callahan. Maybe a timeframe would help the witness July O'Callahan,
twenty nineteen. Are we talking twenty nineteen? Redacted? Yes, witness okay.
Question to your knowledge? Did anyone else that mayin justice
disagree with the charges that SDNY intended to bring? Answer?
(37:41):
I don't recall any disagreement. Question in the two conversations
you had with President Trump, did the President express any
views on the investigation? Answer not that I can recall.
No question. Did he ever give you any instruction with
respect to it? Answer no question, or exprest any preference?
Answer no question with respect to the investigation? Answer no
(38:07):
question to your knowledge? Did anyone else at the DOJ
discuss the sdn Y investigation with anyone in the White House?
Answer not, to my knowledge. Question the FBI's investigation. Did
that continue post indictment? Answer the FBI's investigation of the suicide.
Question the FBI's investigation into mister Epstein's crimes. Barr My
(38:29):
understanding is that the investigation was going forward because they
were at the stage looking for people who were complicit
in the trafficking, either by facilitating it or by essentially
exploiting the victims. Question and do you know how long
the FBI's investigation continued. Answer? I think it continued throughout
my tenure. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up
(38:51):
right here, and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
we're going to pick up where we left off. All
of the information that goes with this episode can be
found in the descript can box
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