January 4, 2026 • 33 mins
Bill Barr’s deposition before Congress on Jeffrey Epstein was a masterclass in calculated deflection. While Barr insisted that Epstein’s death was “absolutely” suicide, he conceded that the prison surveillance system had “blind spots”—a detail that conveniently leaves just enough room for speculation without providing definitive answers. His reliance on flawed or incomplete camera footage, combined with his dismissal of alternative forensic perspectives, came off less like transparency and more like institutional damage control. Instead of holding the Bureau of Prisons accountable, Barr’s narrative positioned the failures as unfortunate but inconsequential, a stance that fails to satisfy the public demand for clarity.
Just as troubling was Barr’s evasiveness when pressed about Donald Trump’s knowledge of Epstein. He admitted to having spoken with Trump about Epstein’s death but couldn’t recall when one of those conversations occurred—an astonishing lapse considering the gravity of the matter. His reasoning that “if there were more to it, it would have leaked” was not only flippant but dismissive of the very real history of suppression, obstruction, and selective disclosure that has defined the Epstein saga. By leaning on institutional trust in a case defined by betrayal of that very trust, Barr’s testimony did little more than reinforce suspicions that the Department of Justice has long been more concerned with containment than accountability.
to contact me:
bobbycapucci@protonmail.com
source:
Barr-Transcript.pdf
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-epstein-chronicles--5003294/support.
Just as troubling was Barr’s evasiveness when pressed about Donald Trump’s knowledge of Epstein. He admitted to having spoken with Trump about Epstein’s death but couldn’t recall when one of those conversations occurred—an astonishing lapse considering the gravity of the matter. His reasoning that “if there were more to it, it would have leaked” was not only flippant but dismissive of the very real history of suppression, obstruction, and selective disclosure that has defined the Epstein saga. By leaning on institutional trust in a case defined by betrayal of that very trust, Barr’s testimony did little more than reinforce suspicions that the Department of Justice has long been more concerned with containment than accountability.
to contact me:
bobbycapucci@protonmail.com
source:
Barr-Transcript.pdf
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-epstein-chronicles--5003294/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
(00:02):
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking up where we
left off with Bill Barr and his deposition to Congress.
Question all right, and then maybe the last three questions,
which were already similar questions. Answer, Okay, that were asked before,
but I'm going to rephrase them a little bit. You
were asked these a little bit earlier. But are you
(00:23):
aware of any information or evidence that suggests that Jeffrey
Epstein was an employee of any foreign intelligent service? Answer?
No question what about mister Epstein being an asset or
an informant for any foreign intelligent service? Answer as opposed
to an employee question uh huh. Answer The question is
(00:44):
did I see such evidence? Question? Are you aware of
any evidence of that? Answer? No question. Similar question for
the US, and I believe you answered them. Aware of
any information or evidence? Answer? Oh, evidence meaning stuff that
the Southern District has and says this is evidence of that,
as opposed to speculation. Question yes, answer allegations that you
(01:07):
see floating around the press? Question yes, answer no, I've
never seen SDNY evidence. No question, and I'm going to
be obnoxious and ask it any other official channel evidence
that suggests that he was a foreign intelligence asset. Answer
no question, and then you said earlier, and I'll summarize it,
(01:27):
and you can please correct me if it's an improper summary. Answer.
I believe that if he was an American asset, as
opposed to some businessman who shares some stuff with the government,
I would have heard about it from the intelligence agency.
Question that was going to be my short summary here.
You testified earlier not aware of any evidence of mister
Epstein being employed by US intelligence services. And then your
(01:49):
assumption is that much like other people with large foreign ties,
it would be not uncommon for him to have discussions
with the intelligence community. Answer, Yeah, to share some information.
I mean, it's not uncommon at all for businessmen who
are being investigated to tell the prosecutors. G you know,
I work all the time with US intelligence. That's not
(02:09):
at all unusual. And the answer is okay, a lot
of people do. But you know you're still capable of
going to jail for committing a crime. Question Yeah, and
you just touched on this, but were you ever informed
by the National Security Division of any potential impact to
intelligence gathering or national security regarding the Maxwell or Epstein prosecutions.
(02:29):
Answer no, especially not related to Epstein, you know, being
prosecuted or a Maxwell. Question. Okay, they go off the
record here and then they're back on question. Mister Barr,
I'd like to return to the topic of Jeffrey Epstein's
prison death. You mentioned at the outset this morning. If
I understood correctly that you were informed by your chief
(02:49):
of staff that mister Epstein was dead. Is that correct? Answer? Yes? Question,
and that the chief of staff told you in his
words that it was an apparent suicide. Is that right answer?
I think so? Question? Okay, answer apparently words to that effect.
Question Did you have an understanding as to how your
chief came to that conclusion on the morning of his death?
(03:11):
Answer No, This was somewhat on the fly call to
alert me to this. And also it was clear that
the circumstances was such that it called for an investigation.
And I think, as the term may have been used,
it was a shit show and they would have to
be looked at. But it was an apparent suicide. Question
and so what to your understanding interrupts her or him
(03:35):
bar or presented itself in a suicide that way? Question
to your understanding what led them to that conclusion? Answer
common sense. Question could you elaborate? Answer, well, you know,
think at first blush, Well, a lot went wrong. He
was found by himself in his cell, apparently hanging himself
and using the same modus operandi he did in his
(03:56):
previous attempt. See why that previous attempt is so important
and why the Tartaglioni factor has been left out for
the most part. Question with respect to OIG's investigation, do
you recall the names of the personnel in the OIG's
office who were involved? Answer in what question in the
OIG investigation? Answer no, I called Horowitz directly. Question do
(04:20):
you know the names of any other staff who were involved?
Answer no, Question that are working on it. Answer like
not off the top of my head, And I don't
think I knew. Maybe k new at the time, but
I certainly don't know. Now. There was somebody I think
up in New York that was close at hand whose
name was used so at the time they had he
did identify some people who would be involved, but I
(04:42):
don't know them. Question you were asked earlier about the
FBI's investigation in connection with the death, and just to
make sure that we're all on the same page. As
to the scope of the investigation, it's my understanding that
a principal focus for the FBI was whether mister Epstein's
death was caused by homicide. Is that fair answer? I think?
To figure out this was real suicide or was you
(05:04):
know some kind of was this a murder? Basically question.
You were asked earlier whether you had spoken with any
inmates at MCC and you said you hadn't. Just revisiting
this because there was some public reporting or a suggestion
that you spoke with ephrin Stone reyis following mister Epstein's death.
Is that name familiar to you? Answer? No? Question? Okay,
(05:27):
answer I mean who did he say he was and
what did I talk to him about? Question? As I understand, answer,
I mean, this stuff happened six years ago, and it's conceivable,
But I don't recall talking to an inmate. It was
a former inmate or an inmate, as I understand, an
inmate of Shoe contemporaneously with mister Epstein. Answer no, I
(05:48):
didn't go up to the shoe. Question. This is my
understanding from the public reporting at the time. This is
August twenty nineteen, You pointed to some delays in the
investigation because certain witnesses were not quiet operative. Do you
recall answer when question do you recall that this is
August of twenty nineteen. Answer yeah, question and specifically a
number of them, as you described, required having union representatives
(06:12):
and lawyers before you were able to schedule interviews. Answer,
before the Southern District was able to schedule interviews. Question
you recall that? Answer yes? Question okay. Was a lack
of cooperation that you encountered solely the insistence on union
representation or were there other factors? Answer? There may have
been other factors. I don't know. My recollection is that
(06:35):
the Southern District was explaining to me that it was
taking time. It was important to get the facts out
as quickly as we could given all the conspiracy theories. Question.
According to the IG report, mister Epstein was taken by
ambulance to the MCC to New York Presbyterian Lower Manhattan Hospital.
To your knowledge for EMT and medical personnel questions? Answer,
(06:57):
I don't know. I mean I don't know now may
have known at the time. Question to your knowledge where
DNA tests conducted on the bedsheets and mister Epstein's cell. Answer,
I couldn't tell you. Question. We spoke earlier about video
footage in the shoe. Answer, By the way, I would
just say that again, this is six years later. I'm
not saying I never knew whether DNA was run. Just
(07:19):
sitting here, I can't remember whether that was an aspect
that I knew about. I did know or was told
that very good FBI agents were on this and we're
doing a very thorough job. Oh yeah, the FBI. Huh,
we can all trust that. Question. Turning back to the
video footage, I just want to make sure that we're
all on the same page as to what you looked at.
(07:39):
There is the footage that the FBI made publicly available
in July this year. Is that the same footage that
you personally reviewed? Answer? I said that I cannot say
whether that was the same because I don't have what
I viewed, but what I viewed showed the common area.
Question are you aware of being more than one version
of that footage? Answer of that footage? Answer question yes,
(08:01):
answer from the same camera. Question yes, answer no, I
don't know. I think at some point I was told
that they were working on enhancing it. Question enhancing the version.
Answer they were I was interested in seeing the video,
and they were working on enhancing the video, and the
primary video I viewed was one showing the common area
(08:21):
and the guards and a portion of the stairway. Question
did you have any understanding as to what the enhancement involved? Exactly?
Answer No, I don't even know whether it was enhanced.
I'm just saying I was told that they were working
on enhancing it. Question. I'd like to mark Exhibit se
a CBS article. It's entitled CBS News investigation of Jeffrey
(08:44):
Epstein' jail video reveals new discrepancies. It's dated July twenty ninth,
twenty twenty five. Mister Barr, I'm going to ask you
a couple of aspects of this article, but please take
all the time you need to review it. Answer, well,
just tell me what the asp question. Sure, So, I'm
looking seven pages in and I apologize this document is
(09:05):
not pageanated. There's a subheading that reads experts question investigators
interpretation of orange Shape moving up the stairs. Answer, uh huh?
Question do you see that? Answer? Yeah? Question? And then
the paragraph below it reads just before ten forty pm
in Orange Shape, a scene moving up the stairs leading
Depstein's tier. Do you recall there being an orange shape
(09:26):
in the video along the lines of that description. Answer,
I don't recall focusing on an orange shape going up. Well, wait,
I'd have to see the clip. Question okay, answer to
see what it refers to question according to this piece
and again i'll read it into the record, the report says,
through review and analysis of the shoe video, footage, witness statements,
(09:48):
and BOP records, the OIG determined that approximately at ten
forty PM, a corrections officer believed to be Noel carried
linen or inmate clothing up to El tier, which was
the last time many CEO approached the only entrance to
the shoe tear in which Epstein was housed. I mean
only entrance we know about. What about through the venting system?
(10:09):
Is there another way to get in? Look, I'm not
trying to be conspiratorial here, but these are questions that
have to be asked. Question, I recall when I watched
the video that I watched what I believed the CEO
went up the stairs but did not go into the tier.
Question CBS, based on its analysis, and again I'll read
the next paragraph here. Video. Forensic experts who reviewed that
footage at the request of CBS News were skeptical about
(10:33):
that interpretation and suggested that the shape could be a
person dressed in an orange prison jumpsuit climbing the stairs.
Connor McCourt, a retired NYPD sergeant and forensic video expert,
told CBS News, based on the limited video, it's more
likely it's a person in an orange uniform. Would you
agree with that observation? Answer? No question? And why not answer?
(10:55):
Because when I watched it, I concluded it was the
CEO that went up at that time and didn't go
in question and then skip ahead one two answer. That
was not only my interpretation, it was the OIG's interpretation
and the Southern District and the FBI's interpretation of whatever
they watched. Question. I'm skipping four pages ahead in the
(11:17):
article answer uh huh question and the subreading that reads
at twelve oh five forty eight am, an unidentified individual
passes through the shoe. Mister O'Callahan over here here Barr, Yeah,
I see it. Question. So just for the record, I'll
read the paragraph. The Inspector General's report says only two
(11:39):
members entered the unit after midnight. One is a corrections
officer identified only as SE three. The other is described
as the morning Watch operations lieutenant. The presence of a
third unidentified individual seen on the video is not addressed
by the Inspector General's report. Were you aware of there
being a third unidentified individual in the footage? Answer? All
(12:01):
I can say is that when I watched it in
the movements were explained, it correlated to the other evidence,
and I saw nothing of some strange unidentified person lingering around.
If there was such a person, there was an explanation
for it. Question, and would to that they're cut off
by bar I haven't. I'd have to see what the
Inspector General also says, but there was nothing that raised
(12:23):
that question for me. Question and one last question on
this article, and I'm skipping ahead a couple of pages
one page, I'm sorry, to the bottom of the following
page under the subheading were there other cameras recording? Answer? Yeah,
question and again I'll just read the first two paragraphs
into the record. In addition to the cameras that failed
(12:43):
to record other angles of the shoe common area, the
Inspector General's report states that there were two additional cameras
recording events in the vicinity of the Epstein unit, one
covering an elevator bank used to transport inmates, and another
focused on a nearby guard desk. Neither of those videos
has been released, but a screen grab from one was
(13:04):
included in the report. So were you were aware of
those recordings? Answer? I was aware that there were other
cameras that were recording in the vicinity, and I believe
that when I reviewed video, I saw excerpts from other videos.
Questions CBS goes on to conclude, answer, that's my best recollection.
I'd have to see a screen grab. Also, I don't know.
(13:26):
Question CBS goes on to conclude. While federal officials have
dismissed those recordings as unhelpful in documenting what occurred that night,
experts told CBS News that those videos could add value
to the analysis. They could, for instance, help determine whether
the DVR system did in fact reset nightly and consistently
lose one minute, as Attorney General Pambondi said, or provide
(13:49):
evidence to contradict or claim. Do you have a view
on that conclusion? Answer? No, question in light of CBS's
conversation or observation, do you think that those additional answer.
I mean, we had a number of experts, you know,
different sets of experts go over this and look at
all the evidence together and correlate it. This is all
very interesting, but to me, it doesn't carry weight. Question
(14:12):
in might of CBS's conclusion, do you think that those
additional recordings should be publicly released? Answer? I think that's
a call for the AG. I think if they concluded
ads value, i'd like to see them all released. Question
nothing further on this exhibit. All right, folks, We're going
to wrap up right here and in the next episode
dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we
(14:33):
left off. All of the information that goes with this
episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone,
and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
this episode, we're gonna pick up where we left off
with the Bill Barr deposition. Question mister Barr, I apologize
for not asking this earlier. What was the name of
(14:53):
your chief of staff? Answer Brian Rabbit. Question, thank you
answer at that TI time. Question, we spoke earlier about
the autopsy performed by the Office of the Chief Medical
Examiner for the City of New York. Do you recall
any specific staff at the Medical Examiner's office who were involved?
Answer no, it's the city's I think it belongs to
(15:16):
the city. Question okay. Answer At the time, I knew
the name of the medical examiner, but I couldn't recall
that now. Question did you ever see the autopsy report
before it was released? Answer? No question or I'm sorry,
before it was completed? Rather answer no question. Do you
have an understanding as to why it hasn't been publicly released?
(15:38):
Answer no, I don't know what their practice is. Question, So,
the medical examiner determined that the death was a suicide,
to your knowledge, did the FBI continue to investigate the
circumstances surrounding mister Epstein's death after that point? Answer yes?
Question and did it continue to investigate it as a
possible homicide? Answer? I think they were carrying out the
(16:00):
investigation that was initiated as to determine why the federal
prisoner wound up dead Iness Cell. Question, So to ask
it a different way, did the FBI accept the medical
examiner's conclusion? Answer it was a medical examiner's evidence, strong evidence, obviously.
Question and so did the FBI rule out the possibility
of a homicide at that point. Answer no, the FBI.
(16:23):
My understanding is the FBI continued to rely on its
own evidence and conclusions and determinations. It didn't stop just
because the medical Examiner made that ruling. And that would
be true. I think in almost any case, if the
FBI is told to go in and conduct an investigation
federal investigation for the Department of Justice on something, it'll
(16:44):
do it. The fact that a state official makes that
ruling won't stop them. Question Okay, I understand that you
directed certain changes at BOP following mister Epstein's death. Answer
uh huh. Question, including replacing BOP leadership. Answer uh huh.
And that included Kathy hawk Sayer answer I brought her
in question and Tom Kine answer yes. Question And does
(17:09):
the name Timothy Shay familiar to you? Answer yes, question
and to his mister Shay answer Shae was on my
staff at the time. Question okay, and what was his role? Answer?
Among on his portfolio were BOP matters. Question So, to
your knowledge, did mister Shay have any communication with the
Medical Examiner's office? Answer not, to my knowledge, I don't
(17:31):
recall that question. Is there anyone else at the BOP
who worked on addressing the operational issues that surrounded mister
Epstein's death. Answer, I'm sure there were. Question any names
that you can recall. Answer not that I can recall.
You mean remedying the problems that were found. Is that
what you're talking about addressing? Question Well, generally, yeah, the
(17:52):
circumstances surrounding the death and the immedial measures that were
undertaken afterwards, those are two different, two different things, replies Barr.
Question yes, so globally. Answer, I don't remember the people
involved in those efforts. Question Okay. There was discussion earlier
regarding Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with Donald Trump. Mister Trump has
(18:13):
stated that he and Epstein fell out in the early
two thousands. Did you ever have an understanding as to
the cause of their falling out? Answer? I mean what's
just been speculated in the press. All I can recall
Trump saying to me is that he had a falling
out and pushed him out of or somehow got him
out of mar A Lago. That's what I remember. Question.
(18:33):
And this came up earlier. It was reported that Attorney
General Bondi advised the White House in May of this
year that President Trump's name appears in the Epstein files.
Do you have an understanding as to why Attorney General
Bondi flagged that for the White House? Answer? I think
that would normally be what an attorney general would do,
you know, is to give the president a heads up
if something is going to happen like that the release
(18:55):
of documents that have his name in them, and that
will be you know, there would be a lot of
speculation about it. Question why is that? Answer? I mean,
It's completely normal to tell the chief executive that his
name is about to be released. There's nothing inherently wrong
with that. Question. A few questions for you, mister Barrk
concerning Glayne Maxwell, understanding that you were no longer at
(19:17):
the DOJ when charges were brought against Miss Maxwell. Answer, No,
I was at the DOJ when the charges He's cut
off by the person asking the questions. Question you were
at the DOJ? I'm sorry, right, you were still at
the department. Were the charges that were brought against or
supported by the evidence in your view? Answer? I was
assured they I mean, I think I was made aware
(19:38):
of that evidence what they intended to prove, and that
it would support the charge, so at the time I
felt that they were I don't have a different view today. Question,
And as we spoke about earlier, Miss Maxwell's conviction made
her a sex offender for purposes of federal law. Correct answer,
Uh huh. Question she was sentenced following trial two two
(19:59):
one forty months imprisonment to be followed by five years
a supervised release. The court imposed a seven hundred and
fifty thousand dollars fine. Do you view that as an
appropriate sentence? Answer? Yes. Question do you believe miss Maxwell
to be a credible witness? Answer depends on what she's
testifying about. Reporter, can you repeat that answer? It would
(20:22):
depend on what she's testifying about. Question and the fact
that she was charged with perjury with two accounts of
perjury influence your answer at all. Answer of course. Question
you're aware that in July of this year, Miss Maxwell
was interviewed by Deputy Attorney General Todd Baby Billy Blanche.
Answer yes, question okay, answer from public reports. Question it's
(20:45):
my understanding that at no point during the DJ's investigation
or during her prosecution, did Miss Maxwell meet with the
government to offer information relevant to Epstein's investigation. Is that
an accurate understanding. Answer, I'd have to go back and
see nothing springs to mind about her doing that. Question.
Do you have an understanding as to why the Deputy
(21:05):
Attorney General met with mss Maxwell? Answer? No. Question Is
it unusual in your view for the second highest law
enforcement official at DOJ to interview a potential cooperating witness?
Answer it doesn't happen every day. Question Can I take
that as a yes? Answer? Yeah, of course it's unusual.
Question And would you agree with me that it's typically
(21:27):
the line prosecutors handling the case that do the interviews
with potential cooperators. Answer typically, that's in a normal case.
This case has features that most cases don't have. Question
even in an abnormal case, would it be your experience
or expectation that in an interview like this, the Deputy
Attorney General would be accompanied by line prosecutors who handled
(21:49):
the case. Answer, as I say, it's hard to say
there's a particular practice, since this doesn't normally happen. Question
dojld on, let's back up for a second. It's also
my understanding that in a typical case, it's customary for
an FBI agent to present for these interviews as well,
for the purpose of note taking. Is that consistent with
(22:12):
your understanding? Answer? Usually in the investigation of a case. Yes,
I'm not sure what stage this was in and what
it was related to. Question DOJ to day does not
share details of who from DJ was president in the
room if anyone with mister Blanche and Miss Maxwell? Is
that unusual in your view? Answer no, because usually the
(22:33):
Justice Department does not share information like that. Question even
in a case like this that's pretty closely in the
public eye. Answer well, I'll say this that's why this
is an unusual case. So to say, does this usually happen?
Does this usually happen? The answer is usually no question.
Until recently, Miss Maxwell had been serving her sentence at
(22:55):
a federal prison facility in Tallahassee, Florida. Following her interview
with mister Blanche, she was transferred to a federal prison
camp in Brian, Texas. Are you familiar with the federal
prison camp? Answer no. Question. Do you have an understanding
as to why BOP move Miss Maxwell to a federal
prison camp? Answer no. Question. Do you have a view
(23:17):
as to whether that decision was appropriate? Answer no, because
I think the initial regime that used when someone is
sent to corrections facility does not necessarily dictate the way
they're going to be treated all the way through, and
it's not uncommon for there to be lesser and lesser
security involved. Once the BOP has experienced with people as
a prisoner and they see they don't pose a threat
(23:39):
and you know, I forgot what the word is used,
but they're not disruptive prisoners or anything like that. They're
relatively easy to manage. There's a process whereby they go
to less secure facilities, So you know, it doesn't strike
me as odd she was put in that facility. You
also have to remember her initial confinement was quite severe
because she was watched twenty four to seven question. I'd
(24:02):
like to ask the court reporter to mark this as
exhibit D. A Washington Post article. It's titled Klan Maxwell's
move to country club prison smacks a special treatment experts
A and I'm focusing on the fifth paragraph down at
the bottom of the first page. It refers to a
long standing policy from the Federal Bureau of Prisons, which,
according to the article, restricts inmates with certain elevated security
(24:24):
classifications known as public safety factors from serving in federal
prison camps, sex offenses are among the most severe. Is
that consistent with your understanding? Answer? Obviously, one of the
public safety factors is the severity of the crime. You
also look at someone's role and whether they constitute the
extent to which they constitute an ongoing threat to the public. Frequently,
(24:48):
you know, it may be the fact that it's a
sex offense reflects a perversion, a compulsion, and so forth,
will frequently be determinative of that, but not in all cases. Question.
The article goes on to note in the next sentence,
and this is the top of the second page, inmates
serving sentences of ten years or more generally aren't eligible
for transfer to minimum security facilities. This too would have
(25:11):
been applied to Maxwell, who is not due for release
until twenty thirty seven. Is that consistent with your understanding? Answer?
That is, what question that inmates serving sentences of ten
years or more generally aren't eligible for transfer to federal
prison camps. Answer again, general, you know to me, doesn't
(25:32):
you know? I do not think that? Frequently. The only
way you can get a prisoner in a facility for
a long period of time to cooperate is to offer
something that you can deliver, and I don't think it's
unusual put someone in a less severe condition of confinement
in return for cooperation. Usually that's the only way you
can get someone who's in for a long term to cooperate.
(25:52):
Question just one more statement in this article. I'd like
to direct your attention to if I could, and it's
in the following paragraph. The sentent treads, While it's not
uncommon for prison officials to allow inmates to cooperate with
investigations to move to lower security facilities, it's rare for
sex offenders to receive such benefits, and they almost never
(26:12):
get moved into prison camps. Like Brian Experts said, do
you agree with that statement? Answer, I'd have to see
what the situation is. You know, it may be that
sex offenders rarely cooperate and frequently the whole picture of
the person reflects an ongoing threat to the public. And
I don't know what the analysis was here by the
Bureau of Prisons. Question. Miss Maxwell's current attorney has stated
(26:34):
publicly that he hopes his client receives clemency from President Trump.
In your view, to circumstances exist that would justify a
pardon or any other form of clemency for Miss Maxwell. Answer,
that's an issue for the president to address. Question Chairman
Comer stated, I'm sorry. Miss Maxwell's attorney stated in July
twenty ninth, twenty twenty five letter Chairman Comer that his
(26:57):
client quote did not receive a fair trial. Do you
agree with that assertion? Answer? I haven't seen his basis
for saying that, so I can't agree with it. Question.
In the same letter, her attorney also describes Miss Maxwell
as quote a convenient scapegoat unquote following mister Epstein's death.
Do you agree with that characterization? Answer not to the
(27:18):
extent that it just dismisses the idea that she herself
was guilty of a serious crime. You know, I mean,
it may be that a lot of public outrage at
the events then became solely focused on her, but that
doesn't excuse or make her less responsible for that conduct. Question.
I'm getting close to the end. Just a few more questions,
am My next questions pertained to an investigation that this
(27:39):
committee undertook in twenty nineteen in connection with the Florida
plea deal, and that was during your tenure. Do you
recall that investigation? Answer? I'm sorry, I thought you were
talking about the Florida Plea deal back in the early
two thousands. Question. Yes, So this committee, the Oversight Committee,
in twenty nineteen undertook an investigation into the circumstances rounding
(28:00):
the two thousand and seven plea deal in Florida. Do
you recall that? Answer? I actually don't recall that question. Okay, answer,
I'm sure it happened, but I don't recall it. Question.
I'm just going to mark exhibits. I think we're up
to E, so this will be E and F. Yes,
these two letters from twenty nineteen from the committee in
connection with this investigation. So I'll turn to exhibit E. First,
(28:24):
that's the July letter to Corey Aminson of OPR. Have
you ever seen this letter before? Answer? It's possible. I have.
I'm frequently briefed. I was frequently briefed by the Legislative
Affairs person as to any developments on the Hill. I
don't remember it, though. Question. So, the letter requested a
briefing from OPR on issues relating to the two thousand
(28:44):
and seven plea deal. I can represent to you that
OPR sent the committee a response confirming that it was
conducting an investigation but declined to provide the requested briefing.
Do you have an understanding as to why it declined? Answer?
I don't recall, as I said, I may very well
have been briefed on this letter, because I regularly was
briefed on developments, including letters like this that we're going
(29:07):
to be rejected, you know, declined. So I can't specifically
say that it was explained. I can remember explanation, but
it doesn't surprise me that they would decline it. I
think it would be normal question, and why is that answer?
Because it was an ongoing investigation. The department is going
to put that stuff out. Question and then I'll turn
to Exhibit F and generally that stuff around the plea
(29:29):
agreement bar answers wouldn't be normally put out, So it
doesn't surprise me that they rejected it. O'Callahan, do you
have a copy of the department's response to the July
tenth letter. It's referenced in the December twentieth letter. It's
an August fifth, twenty nineteen letter from Assistant Attorney General
Stephen Boyd in response to Chairman Cummings letter. Yeah, I
(29:51):
was planning to introduce it ordacted, says O'Callahan. It would
just be if you're showing the attorney the former attorney
general the sequence of letters. Witness. You so ask me
why it was declined. Oh Callahan, yeah, witness. It would
be good to see the letter. But that's okay. Question
turning to the December twentieth letter, which is the exhibit
f do you recall seeing or receiving that letter? Answer?
(30:13):
No question, okay, answer, but for the same thing. I mean,
letters are coming during the Trump administration. Question. Sure, we
got a lot of letters coming in like this understood
to your knowledge to DOJ ever provide documents that the
committee requested in this letter? Answer? I don't know. Is
it the same documents? Oh callahan? The document request is witness. Yeah,
(30:36):
that would normally be I mean, I think any Department
of Justice would at least initially really decline. Question and
why is that? Barr? The reasons I stated question, and
I'll represent that DOJ did not, in fact provide documents
pursuing to this letter. Just a few more questions and
then I'm done. Mister Barr. We've talked about a lot
of names throughout the course of the day. Is there
(30:56):
anyone else, in your opinion, who may have firsthand knowledge
relating to the the Epstein investigation or the Maxwell investigation
that this committee should speak with. Answer well, I mean
I think the people conducting the investigation. I mean, main
Justice did not conduct the investigation, and as I've said,
the information was limited, partly because that would be appropriate,
and partly because it all depended on what the Southern
(31:18):
District wish to share. So I was you know, you're
if you're interested in finding out whether the investigation ever
developed information that would establish misconduct by someone other than
the two who were charged. I think the starting point
would be the people who were involved in or who
supervised the investigation and the people who conducted it. Question
(31:38):
so specifically the line attorneys a SDNY and the FBI agents.
Answer what I mean? The US Attorney Jeff Berman question yeah,
answer he supervised the investigation. Question anyone else? Answer well,
I mean usually the Department doesn't like line attorneys hauled
up before Congress. On the other hand, some of them
have appeared to leave. Question I asked you or about
(32:00):
any communication that you had during your first tenure of
the Trump administration with the White House, just to complete
the picture. Have you discussed the Epstein investigation with anyone
in the current Trump administration? Answer? No, not that I recall,
I may have expressed surprise that the thing had taken
on the character that it has. Question and who would
(32:21):
you have expressed that to answer? I don't know, some friend.
Question and have you gets cut off? Bar answers no
one in the Department of Justice that I can think of.
Question and then the last question. So I would put
this in the category of conspiracy theory. But there has
been a theory to the effect that Democratic politicians, including
President Obama, President Biden, Hillary Clinton, so forth, have tried
(32:44):
to or planted President Trump's name in the Epstein files
or otherwise tried to connect them to Epstein's investigation. Do
you have any knowledge to support that theory? Answer? I
don't know the extent to which his name appears. I mean,
I know it's been on flight records that's been public,
But per I have no knowledge of, you know, any
false information being fabricated on him or anyone else. Question Okay, answer, well,
(33:07):
except for witnesses that have fabricated stories. Question apart from
the individuals who I just named. The individuals you're referring to,
are not the individuals that I just named in my
question the Democratic politicians who I just named. Answer right, okay, question,
no further questions, Thank you very much, off the record.
(33:27):
All right, folks, Well that's gonna do it for the
Bill Bard deposition, and of course, once we get the
Alexandra Acosta deposition, we'll get that bad boy added to
the catalog as well as for this one. Well, that's
gonna do it. All of the information that goes with
this episode can be found in the description box.
What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
(00:02):
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking up where we
left off with Bill Barr and his deposition to Congress.
Question all right, and then maybe the last three questions,
which were already similar questions. Answer, Okay, that were asked before,
but I'm going to rephrase them a little bit. You
were asked these a little bit earlier. But are you
(00:23):
aware of any information or evidence that suggests that Jeffrey
Epstein was an employee of any foreign intelligent service? Answer?
No question what about mister Epstein being an asset or
an informant for any foreign intelligent service? Answer as opposed
to an employee question uh huh. Answer The question is
(00:44):
did I see such evidence? Question? Are you aware of
any evidence of that? Answer? No question. Similar question for
the US, and I believe you answered them. Aware of
any information or evidence? Answer? Oh, evidence meaning stuff that
the Southern District has and says this is evidence of that,
as opposed to speculation. Question yes, answer allegations that you
(01:07):
see floating around the press? Question yes, answer no, I've
never seen SDNY evidence. No question, and I'm going to
be obnoxious and ask it any other official channel evidence
that suggests that he was a foreign intelligence asset. Answer
no question, and then you said earlier, and I'll summarize it,
(01:27):
and you can please correct me if it's an improper summary. Answer.
I believe that if he was an American asset, as
opposed to some businessman who shares some stuff with the government,
I would have heard about it from the intelligence agency.
Question that was going to be my short summary here.
You testified earlier not aware of any evidence of mister
Epstein being employed by US intelligence services. And then your
(01:49):
assumption is that much like other people with large foreign ties,
it would be not uncommon for him to have discussions
with the intelligence community. Answer, Yeah, to share some information.
I mean, it's not uncommon at all for businessmen who
are being investigated to tell the prosecutors. G you know,
I work all the time with US intelligence. That's not
(02:09):
at all unusual. And the answer is okay, a lot
of people do. But you know you're still capable of
going to jail for committing a crime. Question Yeah, and
you just touched on this, but were you ever informed
by the National Security Division of any potential impact to
intelligence gathering or national security regarding the Maxwell or Epstein prosecutions.
(02:29):
Answer no, especially not related to Epstein, you know, being
prosecuted or a Maxwell. Question. Okay, they go off the
record here and then they're back on question. Mister Barr,
I'd like to return to the topic of Jeffrey Epstein's
prison death. You mentioned at the outset this morning. If
I understood correctly that you were informed by your chief
(02:49):
of staff that mister Epstein was dead. Is that correct? Answer? Yes? Question,
and that the chief of staff told you in his
words that it was an apparent suicide. Is that right answer?
I think so? Question? Okay, answer apparently words to that effect.
Question Did you have an understanding as to how your
chief came to that conclusion on the morning of his death?
(03:11):
Answer No, This was somewhat on the fly call to
alert me to this. And also it was clear that
the circumstances was such that it called for an investigation.
And I think, as the term may have been used,
it was a shit show and they would have to
be looked at. But it was an apparent suicide. Question
and so what to your understanding interrupts her or him
(03:35):
bar or presented itself in a suicide that way? Question
to your understanding what led them to that conclusion? Answer
common sense. Question could you elaborate? Answer, well, you know,
think at first blush, Well, a lot went wrong. He
was found by himself in his cell, apparently hanging himself
and using the same modus operandi he did in his
(03:56):
previous attempt. See why that previous attempt is so important
and why the Tartaglioni factor has been left out for
the most part. Question with respect to OIG's investigation, do
you recall the names of the personnel in the OIG's
office who were involved? Answer in what question in the
OIG investigation? Answer no, I called Horowitz directly. Question do
(04:20):
you know the names of any other staff who were involved?
Answer no, Question that are working on it. Answer like
not off the top of my head, And I don't
think I knew. Maybe k new at the time, but
I certainly don't know. Now. There was somebody I think
up in New York that was close at hand whose
name was used so at the time they had he
did identify some people who would be involved, but I
(04:42):
don't know them. Question you were asked earlier about the
FBI's investigation in connection with the death, and just to
make sure that we're all on the same page. As
to the scope of the investigation, it's my understanding that
a principal focus for the FBI was whether mister Epstein's
death was caused by homicide. Is that fair answer? I think?
To figure out this was real suicide or was you
(05:04):
know some kind of was this a murder? Basically question.
You were asked earlier whether you had spoken with any
inmates at MCC and you said you hadn't. Just revisiting
this because there was some public reporting or a suggestion
that you spoke with ephrin Stone reyis following mister Epstein's death.
Is that name familiar to you? Answer? No? Question? Okay,
(05:27):
answer I mean who did he say he was and
what did I talk to him about? Question? As I understand, answer,
I mean, this stuff happened six years ago, and it's conceivable,
But I don't recall talking to an inmate. It was
a former inmate or an inmate, as I understand, an
inmate of Shoe contemporaneously with mister Epstein. Answer no, I
(05:48):
didn't go up to the shoe. Question. This is my
understanding from the public reporting at the time. This is
August twenty nineteen, You pointed to some delays in the
investigation because certain witnesses were not quiet operative. Do you
recall answer when question do you recall that this is
August of twenty nineteen. Answer yeah, question and specifically a
number of them, as you described, required having union representatives
(06:12):
and lawyers before you were able to schedule interviews. Answer,
before the Southern District was able to schedule interviews. Question
you recall that? Answer yes? Question okay. Was a lack
of cooperation that you encountered solely the insistence on union
representation or were there other factors? Answer? There may have
been other factors. I don't know. My recollection is that
(06:35):
the Southern District was explaining to me that it was
taking time. It was important to get the facts out
as quickly as we could given all the conspiracy theories. Question.
According to the IG report, mister Epstein was taken by
ambulance to the MCC to New York Presbyterian Lower Manhattan Hospital.
To your knowledge for EMT and medical personnel questions? Answer,
(06:57):
I don't know. I mean I don't know now may
have known at the time. Question to your knowledge where
DNA tests conducted on the bedsheets and mister Epstein's cell. Answer,
I couldn't tell you. Question. We spoke earlier about video
footage in the shoe. Answer, By the way, I would
just say that again, this is six years later. I'm
not saying I never knew whether DNA was run. Just
(07:19):
sitting here, I can't remember whether that was an aspect
that I knew about. I did know or was told
that very good FBI agents were on this and we're
doing a very thorough job. Oh yeah, the FBI. Huh,
we can all trust that. Question. Turning back to the
video footage, I just want to make sure that we're
all on the same page as to what you looked at.
(07:39):
There is the footage that the FBI made publicly available
in July this year. Is that the same footage that
you personally reviewed? Answer? I said that I cannot say
whether that was the same because I don't have what
I viewed, but what I viewed showed the common area.
Question are you aware of being more than one version
of that footage? Answer of that footage? Answer question yes,
(08:01):
answer from the same camera. Question yes, answer no, I
don't know. I think at some point I was told
that they were working on enhancing it. Question enhancing the version.
Answer they were I was interested in seeing the video,
and they were working on enhancing the video, and the
primary video I viewed was one showing the common area
(08:21):
and the guards and a portion of the stairway. Question
did you have any understanding as to what the enhancement involved? Exactly?
Answer No, I don't even know whether it was enhanced.
I'm just saying I was told that they were working
on enhancing it. Question. I'd like to mark Exhibit se
a CBS article. It's entitled CBS News investigation of Jeffrey
(08:44):
Epstein' jail video reveals new discrepancies. It's dated July twenty ninth,
twenty twenty five. Mister Barr, I'm going to ask you
a couple of aspects of this article, but please take
all the time you need to review it. Answer, well,
just tell me what the asp question. Sure, So, I'm
looking seven pages in and I apologize this document is
(09:05):
not pageanated. There's a subheading that reads experts question investigators
interpretation of orange Shape moving up the stairs. Answer, uh huh?
Question do you see that? Answer? Yeah? Question? And then
the paragraph below it reads just before ten forty pm
in Orange Shape, a scene moving up the stairs leading
Depstein's tier. Do you recall there being an orange shape
(09:26):
in the video along the lines of that description. Answer,
I don't recall focusing on an orange shape going up. Well, wait,
I'd have to see the clip. Question okay, answer to
see what it refers to question according to this piece
and again i'll read it into the record, the report says,
through review and analysis of the shoe video, footage, witness statements,
(09:48):
and BOP records, the OIG determined that approximately at ten
forty PM, a corrections officer believed to be Noel carried
linen or inmate clothing up to El tier, which was
the last time many CEO approached the only entrance to
the shoe tear in which Epstein was housed. I mean
only entrance we know about. What about through the venting system?
(10:09):
Is there another way to get in? Look, I'm not
trying to be conspiratorial here, but these are questions that
have to be asked. Question, I recall when I watched
the video that I watched what I believed the CEO
went up the stairs but did not go into the tier.
Question CBS, based on its analysis, and again I'll read
the next paragraph here. Video. Forensic experts who reviewed that
footage at the request of CBS News were skeptical about
(10:33):
that interpretation and suggested that the shape could be a
person dressed in an orange prison jumpsuit climbing the stairs.
Connor McCourt, a retired NYPD sergeant and forensic video expert,
told CBS News, based on the limited video, it's more
likely it's a person in an orange uniform. Would you
agree with that observation? Answer? No question? And why not answer?
(10:55):
Because when I watched it, I concluded it was the
CEO that went up at that time and didn't go
in question and then skip ahead one two answer. That
was not only my interpretation, it was the OIG's interpretation
and the Southern District and the FBI's interpretation of whatever
they watched. Question. I'm skipping four pages ahead in the
(11:17):
article answer uh huh question and the subreading that reads
at twelve oh five forty eight am, an unidentified individual
passes through the shoe. Mister O'Callahan over here here Barr, Yeah,
I see it. Question. So just for the record, I'll
read the paragraph. The Inspector General's report says only two
(11:39):
members entered the unit after midnight. One is a corrections
officer identified only as SE three. The other is described
as the morning Watch operations lieutenant. The presence of a
third unidentified individual seen on the video is not addressed
by the Inspector General's report. Were you aware of there
being a third unidentified individual in the footage? Answer? All
(12:01):
I can say is that when I watched it in
the movements were explained, it correlated to the other evidence,
and I saw nothing of some strange unidentified person lingering around.
If there was such a person, there was an explanation
for it. Question, and would to that they're cut off
by bar I haven't. I'd have to see what the
Inspector General also says, but there was nothing that raised
(12:23):
that question for me. Question and one last question on
this article, and I'm skipping ahead a couple of pages
one page, I'm sorry, to the bottom of the following
page under the subheading were there other cameras recording? Answer? Yeah,
question and again I'll just read the first two paragraphs
into the record. In addition to the cameras that failed
(12:43):
to record other angles of the shoe common area, the
Inspector General's report states that there were two additional cameras
recording events in the vicinity of the Epstein unit, one
covering an elevator bank used to transport inmates, and another
focused on a nearby guard desk. Neither of those videos
has been released, but a screen grab from one was
(13:04):
included in the report. So were you were aware of
those recordings? Answer? I was aware that there were other
cameras that were recording in the vicinity, and I believe
that when I reviewed video, I saw excerpts from other videos.
Questions CBS goes on to conclude, answer, that's my best recollection.
I'd have to see a screen grab. Also, I don't know.
(13:26):
Question CBS goes on to conclude. While federal officials have
dismissed those recordings as unhelpful in documenting what occurred that night,
experts told CBS News that those videos could add value
to the analysis. They could, for instance, help determine whether
the DVR system did in fact reset nightly and consistently
lose one minute, as Attorney General Pambondi said, or provide
(13:49):
evidence to contradict or claim. Do you have a view
on that conclusion? Answer? No, question in light of CBS's
conversation or observation, do you think that those additional answer.
I mean, we had a number of experts, you know,
different sets of experts go over this and look at
all the evidence together and correlate it. This is all
very interesting, but to me, it doesn't carry weight. Question
(14:12):
in might of CBS's conclusion, do you think that those
additional recordings should be publicly released? Answer? I think that's
a call for the AG. I think if they concluded
ads value, i'd like to see them all released. Question
nothing further on this exhibit. All right, folks, We're going
to wrap up right here and in the next episode
dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we
(14:33):
left off. All of the information that goes with this
episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone,
and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
this episode, we're gonna pick up where we left off
with the Bill Barr deposition. Question mister Barr, I apologize
for not asking this earlier. What was the name of
(14:53):
your chief of staff? Answer Brian Rabbit. Question, thank you
answer at that TI time. Question, we spoke earlier about
the autopsy performed by the Office of the Chief Medical
Examiner for the City of New York. Do you recall
any specific staff at the Medical Examiner's office who were involved?
Answer no, it's the city's I think it belongs to
(15:16):
the city. Question okay. Answer At the time, I knew
the name of the medical examiner, but I couldn't recall
that now. Question did you ever see the autopsy report
before it was released? Answer? No question or I'm sorry,
before it was completed? Rather answer no question. Do you
have an understanding as to why it hasn't been publicly released?
(15:38):
Answer no, I don't know what their practice is. Question, So,
the medical examiner determined that the death was a suicide,
to your knowledge, did the FBI continue to investigate the
circumstances surrounding mister Epstein's death after that point? Answer yes?
Question and did it continue to investigate it as a
possible homicide? Answer? I think they were carrying out the
(16:00):
investigation that was initiated as to determine why the federal
prisoner wound up dead Iness Cell. Question, So to ask
it a different way, did the FBI accept the medical
examiner's conclusion? Answer it was a medical examiner's evidence, strong evidence, obviously.
Question and so did the FBI rule out the possibility
of a homicide at that point. Answer no, the FBI.
(16:23):
My understanding is the FBI continued to rely on its
own evidence and conclusions and determinations. It didn't stop just
because the medical Examiner made that ruling. And that would
be true. I think in almost any case, if the
FBI is told to go in and conduct an investigation
federal investigation for the Department of Justice on something, it'll
(16:44):
do it. The fact that a state official makes that
ruling won't stop them. Question Okay, I understand that you
directed certain changes at BOP following mister Epstein's death. Answer
uh huh. Question, including replacing BOP leadership. Answer uh huh.
And that included Kathy hawk Sayer answer I brought her
in question and Tom Kine answer yes. Question And does
(17:09):
the name Timothy Shay familiar to you? Answer yes, question
and to his mister Shay answer Shae was on my
staff at the time. Question okay, and what was his role? Answer?
Among on his portfolio were BOP matters. Question So, to
your knowledge, did mister Shay have any communication with the
Medical Examiner's office? Answer not, to my knowledge, I don't
(17:31):
recall that question. Is there anyone else at the BOP
who worked on addressing the operational issues that surrounded mister
Epstein's death. Answer, I'm sure there were. Question any names
that you can recall. Answer not that I can recall.
You mean remedying the problems that were found. Is that
what you're talking about addressing? Question Well, generally, yeah, the
(17:52):
circumstances surrounding the death and the immedial measures that were
undertaken afterwards, those are two different, two different things, replies Barr.
Question yes, so globally. Answer, I don't remember the people
involved in those efforts. Question Okay. There was discussion earlier
regarding Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with Donald Trump. Mister Trump has
(18:13):
stated that he and Epstein fell out in the early
two thousands. Did you ever have an understanding as to
the cause of their falling out? Answer? I mean what's
just been speculated in the press. All I can recall
Trump saying to me is that he had a falling
out and pushed him out of or somehow got him
out of mar A Lago. That's what I remember. Question.
(18:33):
And this came up earlier. It was reported that Attorney
General Bondi advised the White House in May of this
year that President Trump's name appears in the Epstein files.
Do you have an understanding as to why Attorney General
Bondi flagged that for the White House? Answer? I think
that would normally be what an attorney general would do,
you know, is to give the president a heads up
if something is going to happen like that the release
(18:55):
of documents that have his name in them, and that
will be you know, there would be a lot of
speculation about it. Question why is that? Answer? I mean,
It's completely normal to tell the chief executive that his
name is about to be released. There's nothing inherently wrong
with that. Question. A few questions for you, mister Barrk
concerning Glayne Maxwell, understanding that you were no longer at
(19:17):
the DOJ when charges were brought against Miss Maxwell. Answer, No,
I was at the DOJ when the charges He's cut
off by the person asking the questions. Question you were
at the DOJ? I'm sorry, right, you were still at
the department. Were the charges that were brought against or
supported by the evidence in your view? Answer? I was
assured they I mean, I think I was made aware
(19:38):
of that evidence what they intended to prove, and that
it would support the charge, so at the time I
felt that they were I don't have a different view today. Question,
And as we spoke about earlier, Miss Maxwell's conviction made
her a sex offender for purposes of federal law. Correct answer,
Uh huh. Question she was sentenced following trial two two
(19:59):
one forty months imprisonment to be followed by five years
a supervised release. The court imposed a seven hundred and
fifty thousand dollars fine. Do you view that as an
appropriate sentence? Answer? Yes. Question do you believe miss Maxwell
to be a credible witness? Answer depends on what she's
testifying about. Reporter, can you repeat that answer? It would
(20:22):
depend on what she's testifying about. Question and the fact
that she was charged with perjury with two accounts of
perjury influence your answer at all. Answer of course. Question
you're aware that in July of this year, Miss Maxwell
was interviewed by Deputy Attorney General Todd Baby Billy Blanche.
Answer yes, question okay, answer from public reports. Question it's
(20:45):
my understanding that at no point during the DJ's investigation
or during her prosecution, did Miss Maxwell meet with the
government to offer information relevant to Epstein's investigation. Is that
an accurate understanding. Answer, I'd have to go back and
see nothing springs to mind about her doing that. Question.
Do you have an understanding as to why the Deputy
(21:05):
Attorney General met with mss Maxwell? Answer? No. Question Is
it unusual in your view for the second highest law
enforcement official at DOJ to interview a potential cooperating witness?
Answer it doesn't happen every day. Question Can I take
that as a yes? Answer? Yeah, of course it's unusual.
Question And would you agree with me that it's typically
(21:27):
the line prosecutors handling the case that do the interviews
with potential cooperators. Answer typically, that's in a normal case.
This case has features that most cases don't have. Question
even in an abnormal case, would it be your experience
or expectation that in an interview like this, the Deputy
Attorney General would be accompanied by line prosecutors who handled
(21:49):
the case. Answer, as I say, it's hard to say
there's a particular practice, since this doesn't normally happen. Question
dojld on, let's back up for a second. It's also
my understanding that in a typical case, it's customary for
an FBI agent to present for these interviews as well,
for the purpose of note taking. Is that consistent with
(22:12):
your understanding? Answer? Usually in the investigation of a case. Yes,
I'm not sure what stage this was in and what
it was related to. Question DOJ to day does not
share details of who from DJ was president in the
room if anyone with mister Blanche and Miss Maxwell? Is
that unusual in your view? Answer no, because usually the
(22:33):
Justice Department does not share information like that. Question even
in a case like this that's pretty closely in the
public eye. Answer well, I'll say this that's why this
is an unusual case. So to say, does this usually happen?
Does this usually happen? The answer is usually no question.
Until recently, Miss Maxwell had been serving her sentence at
(22:55):
a federal prison facility in Tallahassee, Florida. Following her interview
with mister Blanche, she was transferred to a federal prison
camp in Brian, Texas. Are you familiar with the federal
prison camp? Answer no. Question. Do you have an understanding
as to why BOP move Miss Maxwell to a federal
prison camp? Answer no. Question. Do you have a view
(23:17):
as to whether that decision was appropriate? Answer no, because
I think the initial regime that used when someone is
sent to corrections facility does not necessarily dictate the way
they're going to be treated all the way through, and
it's not uncommon for there to be lesser and lesser
security involved. Once the BOP has experienced with people as
a prisoner and they see they don't pose a threat
(23:39):
and you know, I forgot what the word is used,
but they're not disruptive prisoners or anything like that. They're
relatively easy to manage. There's a process whereby they go
to less secure facilities, So you know, it doesn't strike
me as odd she was put in that facility. You
also have to remember her initial confinement was quite severe
because she was watched twenty four to seven question. I'd
(24:02):
like to ask the court reporter to mark this as
exhibit D. A Washington Post article. It's titled Klan Maxwell's
move to country club prison smacks a special treatment experts
A and I'm focusing on the fifth paragraph down at
the bottom of the first page. It refers to a
long standing policy from the Federal Bureau of Prisons, which,
according to the article, restricts inmates with certain elevated security
(24:24):
classifications known as public safety factors from serving in federal
prison camps, sex offenses are among the most severe. Is
that consistent with your understanding? Answer? Obviously, one of the
public safety factors is the severity of the crime. You
also look at someone's role and whether they constitute the
extent to which they constitute an ongoing threat to the public. Frequently,
(24:48):
you know, it may be the fact that it's a
sex offense reflects a perversion, a compulsion, and so forth,
will frequently be determinative of that, but not in all cases. Question.
The article goes on to note in the next sentence,
and this is the top of the second page, inmates
serving sentences of ten years or more generally aren't eligible
for transfer to minimum security facilities. This too would have
(25:11):
been applied to Maxwell, who is not due for release
until twenty thirty seven. Is that consistent with your understanding? Answer?
That is, what question that inmates serving sentences of ten
years or more generally aren't eligible for transfer to federal
prison camps. Answer again, general, you know to me, doesn't
(25:32):
you know? I do not think that? Frequently. The only
way you can get a prisoner in a facility for
a long period of time to cooperate is to offer
something that you can deliver, and I don't think it's
unusual put someone in a less severe condition of confinement
in return for cooperation. Usually that's the only way you
can get someone who's in for a long term to cooperate.
(25:52):
Question just one more statement in this article. I'd like
to direct your attention to if I could, and it's
in the following paragraph. The sentent treads, While it's not
uncommon for prison officials to allow inmates to cooperate with
investigations to move to lower security facilities, it's rare for
sex offenders to receive such benefits, and they almost never
(26:12):
get moved into prison camps. Like Brian Experts said, do
you agree with that statement? Answer, I'd have to see
what the situation is. You know, it may be that
sex offenders rarely cooperate and frequently the whole picture of
the person reflects an ongoing threat to the public. And
I don't know what the analysis was here by the
Bureau of Prisons. Question. Miss Maxwell's current attorney has stated
(26:34):
publicly that he hopes his client receives clemency from President Trump.
In your view, to circumstances exist that would justify a
pardon or any other form of clemency for Miss Maxwell. Answer,
that's an issue for the president to address. Question Chairman
Comer stated, I'm sorry. Miss Maxwell's attorney stated in July
twenty ninth, twenty twenty five letter Chairman Comer that his
(26:57):
client quote did not receive a fair trial. Do you
agree with that assertion? Answer? I haven't seen his basis
for saying that, so I can't agree with it. Question.
In the same letter, her attorney also describes Miss Maxwell
as quote a convenient scapegoat unquote following mister Epstein's death.
Do you agree with that characterization? Answer not to the
(27:18):
extent that it just dismisses the idea that she herself
was guilty of a serious crime. You know, I mean,
it may be that a lot of public outrage at
the events then became solely focused on her, but that
doesn't excuse or make her less responsible for that conduct. Question.
I'm getting close to the end. Just a few more questions,
am My next questions pertained to an investigation that this
(27:39):
committee undertook in twenty nineteen in connection with the Florida
plea deal, and that was during your tenure. Do you
recall that investigation? Answer? I'm sorry, I thought you were
talking about the Florida Plea deal back in the early
two thousands. Question. Yes, So this committee, the Oversight Committee,
in twenty nineteen undertook an investigation into the circumstances rounding
(28:00):
the two thousand and seven plea deal in Florida. Do
you recall that? Answer? I actually don't recall that question. Okay, answer,
I'm sure it happened, but I don't recall it. Question.
I'm just going to mark exhibits. I think we're up
to E, so this will be E and F. Yes,
these two letters from twenty nineteen from the committee in
connection with this investigation. So I'll turn to exhibit E. First,
(28:24):
that's the July letter to Corey Aminson of OPR. Have
you ever seen this letter before? Answer? It's possible. I have.
I'm frequently briefed. I was frequently briefed by the Legislative
Affairs person as to any developments on the Hill. I
don't remember it, though. Question. So, the letter requested a
briefing from OPR on issues relating to the two thousand
(28:44):
and seven plea deal. I can represent to you that
OPR sent the committee a response confirming that it was
conducting an investigation but declined to provide the requested briefing.
Do you have an understanding as to why it declined? Answer?
I don't recall, as I said, I may very well
have been briefed on this letter, because I regularly was
briefed on developments, including letters like this that we're going
(29:07):
to be rejected, you know, declined. So I can't specifically
say that it was explained. I can remember explanation, but
it doesn't surprise me that they would decline it. I
think it would be normal question, and why is that answer?
Because it was an ongoing investigation. The department is going
to put that stuff out. Question and then I'll turn
to Exhibit F and generally that stuff around the plea
(29:29):
agreement bar answers wouldn't be normally put out, So it
doesn't surprise me that they rejected it. O'Callahan, do you
have a copy of the department's response to the July
tenth letter. It's referenced in the December twentieth letter. It's
an August fifth, twenty nineteen letter from Assistant Attorney General
Stephen Boyd in response to Chairman Cummings letter. Yeah, I
(29:51):
was planning to introduce it ordacted, says O'Callahan. It would
just be if you're showing the attorney the former attorney
general the sequence of letters. Witness. You so ask me
why it was declined. Oh Callahan, yeah, witness. It would
be good to see the letter. But that's okay. Question
turning to the December twentieth letter, which is the exhibit
f do you recall seeing or receiving that letter? Answer?
(30:13):
No question, okay, answer, but for the same thing. I mean,
letters are coming during the Trump administration. Question. Sure, we
got a lot of letters coming in like this understood
to your knowledge to DOJ ever provide documents that the
committee requested in this letter? Answer? I don't know. Is
it the same documents? Oh callahan? The document request is witness. Yeah,
(30:36):
that would normally be I mean, I think any Department
of Justice would at least initially really decline. Question and
why is that? Barr? The reasons I stated question, and
I'll represent that DOJ did not, in fact provide documents
pursuing to this letter. Just a few more questions and
then I'm done. Mister Barr. We've talked about a lot
of names throughout the course of the day. Is there
(30:56):
anyone else, in your opinion, who may have firsthand knowledge
relating to the the Epstein investigation or the Maxwell investigation
that this committee should speak with. Answer well, I mean
I think the people conducting the investigation. I mean, main
Justice did not conduct the investigation, and as I've said,
the information was limited, partly because that would be appropriate,
and partly because it all depended on what the Southern
(31:18):
District wish to share. So I was you know, you're
if you're interested in finding out whether the investigation ever
developed information that would establish misconduct by someone other than
the two who were charged. I think the starting point
would be the people who were involved in or who
supervised the investigation and the people who conducted it. Question
(31:38):
so specifically the line attorneys a SDNY and the FBI agents.
Answer what I mean? The US Attorney Jeff Berman question yeah,
answer he supervised the investigation. Question anyone else? Answer well,
I mean usually the Department doesn't like line attorneys hauled
up before Congress. On the other hand, some of them
have appeared to leave. Question I asked you or about
(32:00):
any communication that you had during your first tenure of
the Trump administration with the White House, just to complete
the picture. Have you discussed the Epstein investigation with anyone
in the current Trump administration? Answer? No, not that I recall,
I may have expressed surprise that the thing had taken
on the character that it has. Question and who would
(32:21):
you have expressed that to answer? I don't know, some friend.
Question and have you gets cut off? Bar answers no
one in the Department of Justice that I can think of.
Question and then the last question. So I would put
this in the category of conspiracy theory. But there has
been a theory to the effect that Democratic politicians, including
President Obama, President Biden, Hillary Clinton, so forth, have tried
(32:44):
to or planted President Trump's name in the Epstein files
or otherwise tried to connect them to Epstein's investigation. Do
you have any knowledge to support that theory? Answer? I
don't know the extent to which his name appears. I mean,
I know it's been on flight records that's been public,
But per I have no knowledge of, you know, any
false information being fabricated on him or anyone else. Question Okay, answer, well,
(33:07):
except for witnesses that have fabricated stories. Question apart from
the individuals who I just named. The individuals you're referring to,
are not the individuals that I just named in my
question the Democratic politicians who I just named. Answer right, okay, question,
no further questions, Thank you very much, off the record.
(33:27):
All right, folks, Well that's gonna do it for the
Bill Bard deposition, and of course, once we get the
Alexandra Acosta deposition, we'll get that bad boy added to
the catalog as well as for this one. Well, that's
gonna do it. All of the information that goes with
this episode can be found in the description box.
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