Mega Edition: Transcripts From The DOJ's Sit Down With Ghislaine Maxwell (Part 21-23) (12/30/25)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of The
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
where we left off with the fireside chat between Glayne
Maxwell and Baby Billy Blanche Spencer Horn. We're resuming from break.
The time is ten forty nine on Friday, July twenty fifth. Blanche, Okay,

(00:20):
all right, So we've talked about this issue, talked about
it a little bit. I want to spend the next
hour or so, or however long it takes. I want
to talk and focus kind of exclusively on Epstein and
like his criminal conduct with respect to women. You said
yesterday a couple of times that, like you now kind
of recognize or think that there were things that he

(00:41):
did that you didn't know about and that he kept
from you, or that you didn't see. What did you see?
So you said yesterday, I'm not trying to put words
in your mouth, but at some point he was getting
massages seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day.
Women have said that, they say that they were giving
him massages, said that those included some sort of sexual conduct. However,

(01:04):
you define that in the broadest sense, not just traditional
massage regularly. So what did you see and here at
the time, and then I think, aside from what you
saw and heard at the time, now that you've been
through what you've been through and heard people say what
they've said and read what they've read, what do you
where does that leave you in your mind with what happened? Maxwell? Okay,

(01:27):
So I saw Epstein with women. I mean what I
mean by that is he would have women around them,
or women on the plane, or women in his house.
And that's how I'm explaining that those women were very interested.
My characterization of the interest, the relationship between all the
women that I saw with them was characterized by excuse me,
their interest in him as I would see it, And

(01:48):
by that I mean I never saw anybody who didn't
want to be with them and be with them, maybe
socially or whatever. I never saw anybody not under any
form of duress in any type of situation where they were,
as I would characterize it, looking uncomfortable or in any
way distressed. In the entire time I was with them
or traveled with them. I never saw that. So anytime

(02:10):
I saw anybody with them, they were happy to be
with them. He would ask people all the time, whoever
you were to massage his feet. He'd be sitting there
and he'd have somebody massage his feet or squeeze his shoulders.
I saw that a lot. It was ubiquitous interaction, if
you will. So I did see that. I saw physicality,
but not anything I don't know how to characterize it.

(02:32):
Anything that looked aggressive. I supposed to define that. So
I never saw an aggressive move Maxwell. I never saw anything,
Blanche interrupts non consensual Maxwell, thank you, Okay. I never
saw anything that was non consensual. Well, maybe they didn't.
I never saw anything that looked like they didn't like
the hug or. I never saw what I would characterize

(02:53):
as anything that was non consensual, Blanche, did you see
him either receiving or participating in sexual conduct massages? Understanding
you never saw something non consensual? Did you see him
engage in sexual conduct during massages? Maxwell, Well, you could
define sexual conduct as in I did see women who
could have been, you know, less than normally clad for massages,

(03:16):
but especially on the island where there would be in
bikini or possibly even topless. Yeah, I did see that,
so you would, Blanche. Yes, I agree. That's one area.
So women who were either not clothed or topless with
just the bottom one, but beyond that, did you see
as part of him touching them? And again, I'm not
talking about consent or non consent or age, you know,

(03:37):
I'm saying like, there's multiple, multiple, you know, dozens and
dozens of women who have said that they were that
they engaged in sexual contact. And I agree there's a
broad range of what how that can be defined, but
defining it in the broadest of terms, Maxwell, So him
being physical with women, I did see that, but nothing
that was not consensual. And to address the issue of

(04:00):
large number of women who today say that he was
non consensual course of with them, I'm not sure. In
my mind, I sort of have to characterize the two
distinct areas. There's one where is the women who were
not of age, therefore anything with them is immediately unconsensual. Correct, Yeah, Maxwell,
So let's start. I want to define anyone who's underage

(04:21):
versus anybody who's overage, because I don't think there's anybody
very significant differential between the two. So does the law Maxwell? Yeah, Okay, Blanche, Yeah, Maxwell,
I don't mean that, Blanche. No, No, I'm not trying
to be smart, Blanche I agree with you, Yes, I
agree with you. Yeah, yeah, Maxwell. So I want to
deal with the thing which is really why we're here.

(04:43):
I mean, not that I'm going to deal with the other,
but I just Blanche, Yeah, want to make a distinction
with underage situation, because there's nothing about that that's right.
I never saw anything with anybody who is certainly to
be categorical in my life from my trial. Let's deal
with that, because that's something that I can say. I
never saw that with them. You abuse them, you fucking liar,

(05:04):
you forked tongue serpent. A jury of your peers thought otherwise,
And I would say that as described anyway in my
child did not happen as described. I'm not saying that
mister Epstein did not do those things. I'm not going
to say. I don't feel comfortable saying that today, given
what I know to be true. So I'm not here
to defend them. But what I can say is that

(05:26):
I did not participate in that activity, Blanche. So let's
divide this into two areas. Maybe there's more, but we'll
start with two areas. One is, there was testimony, and
there's certainly been depositions in public statements that some of
these young women had conversations with you about their age, So,
for example, conversations about the fact that they were in
high school, or conversations about the fact that they wanted

(05:49):
to go to college one day, which would necessarily mean, well,
not necessarily, but would be more likely to mean that
they were in high school when they talk to you
about that. And so were there times where there are
women that you knew were under age? And I say
that because that's different than whether they were sexually abused
in any way by mister Epstein, just merely their age

(06:09):
and going to give them a massage. Maxwell, No, I
never knew that. I can categorically state that I had
any child said to me that they were fourteen, fifteen, sixteen,
maybe not seventeen, because seventeen in England. I mean, if
someone had said they were seventeen, I don't but I've
read so much that that didn't happen. I don't care
what happens in England. Is it legal here? No, Well,

(06:32):
go back to England and abuse all the seventeen year
olds you want. You'll fit right in over there with
all those grooming gangs they have. I mean, I just
I would never have permitted such a thing. I don't
even know what I would have done. Oh we know, Glane,
you'd partake in the abuse. How do we know? And
how do we know? Well, your bitch ass was convicted, Blanche.

(06:55):
So I think even someone who testified at trial but
certainly have publicly talked to out was as young as
fourteen when she was introduced to mister Epstein. You kind
of reject that that happened, that you saw that, meaning
you don't recall any obviously under eighteen women coming to
give him a massage. Maxwell, Well, I believe you're talking
about Jane and I'm Blanche. Yeah. Maxwell, I'm happy to

(07:19):
address that. I actually don't think that the testimony is correct. Blanche. Yeah, Look,
I don't Maxwell, No, no, no, I just wanted to
tell you, Blanche, I don't want to get into Maxwell.
I'm not Blanche, he said, She said, Maxwell, absolutely not.
I don't want to go there either, Blanche. Okay, Maxwell,
I'm not going to do that. But I believe that

(07:41):
what took place with a lot of these people is
that there was a slide, right, So there was a
zone and he did meet her, and I did meet her,
and I knew that she was a young child, and
I knew that she was not an adult. But I
don't believe he met her till she was sixteen. I'm
not doing it, he said. She said, I'm not doing
that because nobody will. That's not what we're here for. Okay, Blanche, Okay, Maxwell.

(08:03):
But he didn't meet her till she was sixteen, and
the entire testimony of the fourteen, fifteen and sixteen year
old is therefore not accurate. What about all the girls
from the high schools you filed? Disgusting bitch God. I
hate to use that word, but it fits perfectly for
Glenn Maxwell. I usually would use skafuzzie here, but you know,
let's change it up a little bit. Did I meet

(08:26):
her when she was sixteen with her mother? I absolutely did?
And did I know that she was young? I absolutely did.
But everything that took place that was alleged that trial
at the fourteen and fifteen and sixteen is not accurate. Blanche.
There's testimony, and again I'm using testimony in the broadest sense.
Some of this is just public statements or something that's

(08:47):
come out in civil lawsuits about you and mister Epstein,
giving like eighteen, you're turning eighteen birthday card to somebody, which, again,
if true, would by definition mean that you knew she
was under eighteen. Do you recall doing Maxwell, I do not,
I mean, no memory of that at all. I believe
that would be the person that called herself Kate has
now announced herself in her own podcast for who she

(09:10):
really is. Her name is redacted, so I did not
meet redacted until actually she was either twenty or twenty one,
so it would be very hard for me to have
given her an eighteen year birthday card. And the testimony
there is also Blanche. Do you accept Maxwell, that slid back, Blanche?
Do you accept that at some point? And we talked
about this yesterday about how mister Epstein changed, but at

(09:32):
some point mister Epstein definitely preferred younger women. Maxwell, I accept, Blanche,
and I think you said yesterday, but say it again
since we're talking about it. Is that something that you
in your mind one of the areas where it changed
from when you first met him until later. Maxwell, I
just also want to be clear, I never understood that change.
Who uncompassed children. I did see from when I met

(09:55):
him he was involved, involved or friends with or whatever
however you want to care aracterize it with women who
were in their twenties and then the slide to you
eighteen or younger looking women. But I never considered that
this would encompass criminal behavior, Blanche. And so when you
read I guess two different times, right. One was during
the Florida investigation, Maxwell, Yes, Blanche, there were eventually public

(10:18):
statements from some of these now women who testified about
what they did with mister Epstein when they were under eighteen.
At that point, did you realize or did you think
to yourself, this happened or this could have happened, I
missed it, or were you at that point still in
the mindset that you were either not telling the truth
or were not remembering what happened the way that it
actually happened. Maxwell, That's a very fair question. So I

(10:40):
think that my view of this at the time to
call it as contemporaneously as it did, because I don't
think that the stuff came out in public, right. I mean,
they may have read things, but I don't, Blanche cuts
her off. Yeah, that's fair. Maxwell. Memory of that is
that trial. But my viewpoint, if you will, was set
from the minute that redacted wied in her civil deposition.

(11:01):
You mean the one that you got charged with perjury for.
Did Glenn Maxwell really think she was going to get
a narrative here without anybody challenging it? And I could
never recover from that, Blanche? What which lie? What are
you referring to Maxwell her entire characterization? Blanche? Okay, I
don't remember how she came and whether I did, Blanche,

(11:23):
I see Maxwell, but I'm talking about the first time
she came to Epstein's house, Blanche, Okay, Maxwell to be false.
So from that first lie of that description, I can
never recover from that, Blanche. I understand Maxwell, and that tanted. Sorry,
so that we're clear it tainted the testimony of everybody

(11:43):
else that I saw that came post that because I
had my own personal experience which I knew to be false, Blanche.
And the reason why I think and I said to
mister Marcus this morning that we were going to talk
about this, because when I think about you and the
public's perception of mister Epstein, the public is left with
the view that nobody in his world knows what really

(12:04):
happened except for you. Okay, And now you've explained the
last day and a half. How some of that's just
a misperception because you didn't have a key to his house,
you weren't around as much as maybe everybody claims you were. Okay,
but there still is this perception out there. If we
could talk to miss Maxwell, we would know how horrible
mister Epstein was, or how misperceived he was, whatever the

(12:26):
truth is about mister Epstein. And the challenge in my
mind I told you I would tell you when I
had issues, And the challenge in my mind is that
so many women have said that mister Epstein's actually assaulted them,
whether juveniles or adults. That's persuasive, right, That's what happened Maxwell, Okay,
So Blanche, and so that's persuasive. And I think it's

(12:47):
without beyond contestation that he preferred younger women, Maxwell, I, Blanche,
And it's also beyond I think at this point there
were certainly circumstances that underage women. Well, I don't want
to say that you agree with me on that. I
certainly believe that there were younger women that were abused
by them. Okay, So then to the layer that I

(13:08):
want you that I really want to have a frank
discussion about is some of these women have said, oh, yes,
you know, miss Maxwell was there, you know, and to
varying degrees, she saw me there, the door was opened
when I was there, and then much more egregious, right
that you participated and that you were part of it.
And so what I really want you to have an
opportunity to say to us is where on the spectrum

(13:29):
the truth is? Why do we need to hear that
she's convicted of doing this? She had her chance to
speak in court, she didn't do that. Her lawyers couldn't
make the case. Nobody believed her. So why are you
giving her this platform? Now? What do we get out
of it as the taxpayer? What does America get out
of it? And what does the survivors get out of it?

(13:51):
We all know what Maxwell's getting out of it, We
know what the Administration's getting out of it. But what
about the rest of us, whether it's somewhere in the middle,
whether it's one extreme or another extreme. In my mind,
I'm talking about ninety four or ninety five to whenever,
late nineties or early two thousands, Marcus, and let me
just interrupt. All I would say is we're not here

(14:11):
to say anything one way or the other about Epstein.
I agree with you that the evidence is overwhelming against him.
He is his own person and has to deal with that.
But Colaine can speak about what she knows. Blanche, Yeah, Marcus,
and from her point of view and what she did,
and that's what you can talk about. Klane, Todd, Blanche. Okay,
all right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here, and

(14:33):
in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna
pick up where we left off. All of the information
that goes with this episode can be found in the
description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode
of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking back
up boy left off with Glene Maxwell's fireside chat with Todd, Baby, Billy,

(14:54):
Blanche and the DOJ. Maxwell. So I think it's helpful
to put this, you know, the time on the calendar,
because I think without that we're lost. So I would
say we'll go from the beginning of ninety one, no.
Ninety two, no ninety three, no ninety four, no ninety five, no,
ninety six No. In that timeframe you have the allegations
of Jane, who I dispute. I don't think he met

(15:18):
her until she was to that. Blanche cuts her off.
Let's not talk about individuals. Maxwell, No, no, no, I'm
just saying, Blanche, Yeah, I'm with you. I'm sure you are,
baby Billy, Blanche. You should be with the survivors and
the people of the United States. You know, the country
that put client Maxwell behind bars. Probably a good idea, Blanche, Okay, Maxwell,

(15:39):
I'm aware of a girl redacted who said, but redacted
and redacted. I don't know any of the others. If
there are other people who are making allegations, I'm not
even I'm not actually aware of them. I may have
read them, but I don't know. So I think in
the early nineties period, I think I'm fairly confident and
I can say that, at least as characterized, it's just

(15:59):
it's just false. It didn't happen, as said. Now did
it happen? Did he involve himself? I knew about Jane
because I saw her come to the house, but I
saw her with her mother. I know that her allegations
are that there were orgies, for instance, but the people
that she suggests were in o Orgies didn't even work
for Epstein until ninety eight or ninety nine. Did he

(16:20):
do orgies with those people? I don't know anybody who
was there who said that they did. I certainly didn't
see it. I can't say that that happened. Did she
do it with someone else? I don't know. The stories
really start, the allegations really begin with redacted, and I
think that you have to shift his behavior such as
it was Barr. There was one in California who made

(16:42):
an allegation. There was a woman who said that she
I didn't know about, So I think I would call
her the first person. I'd be aware of him using
his position to the first person. What about Maria Farmer?
You know, the lady that you talk to all the time,
the one who worked in Epstein's office, You know the
sister who you as did. How about her? Glainne? Maxwell, Blanche,

(17:05):
and sorry to interrupt you, but I just I don't
I don't want to have you. I don't think it's
helpful for us. Maxwell. Have you kind of address each allegation? Yeah, no, shit,
she's gonna perjure herself. Blanche knows that, and he's guiding her,
which she shouldn't be doing, by the way, Maxwell, Okay, Blanche,
I want to clear your mind and just tell you

(17:26):
the truth about it. So I'm not saying you're not
telling the truth. I'm saying just putting aside what other
people have said, or what their lawyers have said, or
what they testified to or you know, the rumors in
the press. Push those aside. You were there, Okay, what
about what she was convicted of? That's what matters, right. So,
like I was saying previously, why don't we just have

(17:47):
El Choppo get up here and tell us his side
of the story. Would that convince anybody? So why would
anyone think that Glainne Maxwell getting up here and waxing
fucking poetic is gonna change anybody's opinion? And So when
you go back to that time period ninety two, ninety three,
ninety nine, two thousand, two thousand and one, during that

(18:07):
time period, what did you see when it comes to
young women and massages? Maxwell? All right? Sorry, all right?
So I saw him received massages. He had regular messuses
in the nineties, people who were standard and who traveled
with them. And I saw that he was living in
the Iranian house. And now that I look back, I
didn't stay there, but I would go to manage the house.

(18:28):
I would see women, models or people that he would
have come to the house. You mean, like the underage
models from MC squared that we heard about in the deposition.
Are those the messuses you're talking about? And then Maxwell
has the audacity to say she had no idea about
what was going on at the house. Really, these girls
were living there, these models were living there, are these

(18:48):
young girls, And we got that information directly from the source.
And unlike other people, I've already provided that receipt. I
know that he thought he was with Eva still at
the time. That's what I believed, and then subsequently believed
that even though she married him, I actually subsequently believed
that the baby she had was his. Marcus Can I

(19:10):
interrupt for one second, Blanche, Yeah, of course, Marcus. Can
I just ask some basic top line questions Maxwell, Yes, Marcus,
were you ever in a massage room with him? In
a messus? Maxwell? Yes, Marcus, Okay, who and when was that? Maxwell? Well,
he would come in sometimes and he would say, like
give her a massage here, or he would grab you know,

(19:31):
but not often. I mean he did come in from
time to time. Marcus. Were you ever in a massage
room with him? With a massusse that was naked or
giving him sexual favors Maxwell, I never saw that. Perjury
once again, David Marcus Okay, Maxwell, that I remember? Marcus. Okay.
Did you did any of the messuses ever discuss with

(19:51):
you giving that they gave sexual favors to Epstein? Maxwell? No? Marcus, okay,
did you ever see an underage girl go into a
massage room with mister Epstein? Maxwell? No? Perjury again? And
why is Marcus asking the questions? Are we having a
sit in chat with Glenn Maxwell? Another ted talk? Marcus?
If you had seen that, what would you have done?

(20:11):
Would you have left? Maxwell? I can't even conceive. I
can't imagine what I would have done. You would have
joined in like you did with Annie Farmer. You sick molester,
you child abuser, you bipuedal serpent. Marcus, all right, I'm sorry, Blanche. No, No,
that's okay, Marcus. Okay, baby Billy, Blanche. Did you ever
observe mister Epstein masturbating during a massage Maxwell? Yes, I

(20:33):
mean when i'd seen him on a massage table, I
had seen a masturbate. I don't know if there was
a massus present, but I've seen him on a massage? Blanche? Okay, Maxwell, Sorry,
I just Blanche. Did you ever see a masturbate with
a massus, you know, with a naked woman, either giving
him a massage or reporting to give him a massage? Maxwell,
I don't remember seeing that. Oh no, of course not.

(20:55):
Has she given them any bit of actionable intelligence? No?
So why did she get moved? Is baby Billy Blanche
and his buddy Donnie Diddle's ever gonna answer that? Or
are they just gonna keep kicking the can down the
road and telling us to move on? Blanche? Did you
give him a massage? By the way, I mean, there's
a photo of you rubbing his feet, I think Maxwell,

(21:17):
I certainly have been in the massage room with him,
and I have certainly rubbed his feet. We're talking, But
I was not a massuse and I didn't perform massage
on him. Neither were the young girls from pom Beach
that you were bringing in three out of time. But
they give massages, didn't they, Glaine fucking Maxwell? Blanche, did
you during or over the years, did you pay the messus? Maxwell?

(21:39):
It was typically not my job, but if there was
nobody else normally so when pom Beach, the houseman would
give the money, and in New York he would do
that because I wouldn't be in New York. I don't
remember ever paying a massuse in New York, Blanche. So
it wasn't Maxwell, but maybe Blanche. It wasn't your job, Maxwell,
No Blanche on a regular math basis to pay the massuse.

(22:02):
So if there was a messuse seven days a week,
it wasn't expected that seven days a week, you would
be the one handing the money. Maxwell. Mostly I would not.
I'm not saying I never did it, because that wouldn't
be true, but it was not my job to pay them.
I mostly recall he would either pay them himself he
would have money, or the houseman, and I think some
of them would probably receive checks, Blanche. And so just

(22:25):
picking up on what mister Marcus was just asking you,
did you participate in sexual activity with them with a
massuse like at the time, No, Maxwell says Blanche. I
don't know if there's testimony, but the women who have
said that that happened, categorically that's not true. Maxwell, that
is categorically not true. So she's calling the people who

(22:46):
were abused by Jeffrey Epstein liars and not being challenged
by Todd Blanche and Frankly, anybody who thinks this is
acceptable is a gigantic piece of shit because this is
not acceptable. This isn't how it's supposed to work. Blanche,
did you moving past and moving into the two thousands, Maxwell,
I mean, I just want to say that. I mean,

(23:07):
I remember there'd be times when he'd be getting a
massage and I'd be in the room. I could be
on his feet, and somebody else could be on his
feet and we could be talking. So there's that, Blanche,
but your Maxwell, Yeah, Blanche, you're not talking about something
that's sexual. You're talking about literally just rubbing his feet. Maxwell. Yes, Blanche, okay, Maxwell,

(23:28):
But I mean, Blanche, cuts are off, But that's not
what I'm talking about. Maxwell. Okay. Well, sometimes the woman
might be topless, who are giving that? So you could
say that was a sexual in that context, Blanche, No,
I'm talking about the repeated reports of certain sex acts
happening with you present and even participating, Maxwell, No, in

(23:49):
the two thousand time period. So moving a little bit
more recently, when you talked about it yesterday about how
your relationship with mister Epstein changed and was changing, and
you ultimately met somebody else. Did you observe any you know,
massages or young woman giving him massages later on? So
after two thousand, two thousand and one time period, Maxwell,
I'm sure I did, Blanche, And was there anything different

(24:12):
about what you observed during that period in the nineties
as far as the frequency his conduct towards them? And
you see what he's doing here, right, He's trying to
give her a cover story saying that Jeffrey Epstein wasn't
the man that everybody says he is when he was
with Glaine. But the transformation happened after Glaine. The only
problem is the evidence tells us something different. Baby Billy Maxwell,

(24:35):
I think the frequency increased. I think he went from
one to two in that time period. But I did
not see I have no recollection of ever seeing a
child entering the house and giving him a massage. At
that time, he had moved me out of the main house.
I moved into an office with John Alessi, the former butler,
under the stairs, so I had an office where I
would be that was not part of the house. If

(24:58):
I saw people, and I'm saying I didn't see people
come and give him a massage. That wouldn't be true either,
But if I saw someone, I wouldn't. I don't remember
ever seeing anybody that I would characterize as a child. No, well,
we know that you don't think teenagers or children, you sick,
demented witch, specifically someone who accused me of seeing her
at the time when she came. Did you see Annie Farmer?

(25:21):
Yes or no? That should be a question that's asked, Hey,
Glanne Maxwell, you were convicted of molesting Annie Farmer? Did
you do it? And if we had a real deputy
attorney general, those are the kind of questions that would
be asked, But instead we're stuck with this lamb ass
todd baby Billy Blanche. If I did see her, and

(25:41):
I don't believe I did see her or meet her
at all, but if she did, she described herself now
she was very mature and looked in her twenties. So
could somebody have come that was more mature looking than
the allegation of what she did look like with a
photograph that was produced as evidence. Yes, but I never
recall at any time see what I would characterize as
a child coming to give him a massage and going upstairs.

(26:05):
Did I see people come? I absolutely did. I just
didn't see children. I didn't see anybody I would think
of as a child. And if I had seen a child,
I'm not sure that what I would have done. You
would have got in on it, That's what you would
have done. What about the fifteen year old Swedish girl?
What about her, Klaine, Maxwell, nothing to say about that.

(26:25):
Huh oh wait, she'd have to be asked about that,
and we all know that that's not gonna happen. Blanche,
just talking like coming out a little bit of just
bigger picture at the time that you were in his life.
Did he seem to you to be a sexual deviant
or know what the right way to describe it is?
But when you say to me, he was getting massages

(26:47):
every single day, right, So young women were everywhere, multiple
massages on some days. Flew with the women to the island,
to New York, Paris. There's always women, there is always
rubbing them, giving them massages. It would be an understatement
to say that that's not normal. Maxwell. I agree, Blanche.
We've all kind of been part of the Epstein story
over the past several years. But you were there all

(27:09):
the time. Okay, oh, stop at Blanche. You don't know
the first thing about the first thing. Even with all
those DJ files, with all those people quote unquote bringing
you up to speed, you still have no idea what
you're talking about. What was it like at the time?
I mean, was he a creepy guy when it came
to that sort of thing? He was he protective of
how he looked publicly image wise like at the time.

(27:31):
What was it like, Maxwell? I think if he had
been creepy, like as you would define and would expect
someone who was living that lifestyle to be creepy, I
don't think the woman would have been there. I don't
think that they thought of them as creepy, and if
they did, I never saw them behave like he was
being weird. Was it a lot? Yes, it was for sure.

(27:51):
I found it overwhelming and I couldn't understand why it
was interesting because to me, it's not interesting. You see
how she's setting herself up without any challenge whatsoever. This
is like the reverse of a grand jury hearing. During
the grand jury testimony, the prosecution presents all the evidence
without any challenge. Well, the same thing's happening here, but
in reverse. But he as he defined it, he found

(28:14):
it invigorating. He liked being with younger people, and not
just younger people. I'm just saying because they gave him
ideas and they were up to date on music and
Todd Blanche, Yeah, that's different, like a messuse coming every day. Maxwell.
I'm just telling you what he's saying to me, Blanche, Yeah, Maxwell,
to me, I just found it a dragon, difficult and annoying. Maxwell.

(28:37):
But understand, I wasn't the only person present. So this
time in the two thousands, you're talking about other people
like Sarah Kellen who was around, who interface with them.
She was really interfacing with Epstein at this point in
time in his life. She was his assistant, and so
I didn't have to Blanche. That's a fair point. But
move beyond his assistants or the folks that work with them.
What about his friends and the people that were associated

(28:59):
with them. You know, the people that were working with
them were his co conspirators. Todd fucking Blanche, are you
kidding me? Right now? This whole entire thing's a big
ass joke, and every single dollar that was wasted on
it should be given back. Doge should look into this,
where's that dude, big balls? In reality, what should happen
is the circus music should key up, because that's what

(29:21):
this is, a circus being run by clowns. I don't
understand how this is an after fact of mister Epstein.
So once he's arrested in Florida, it becomes part of
his story, and then later on he's charged in the
Southern District, and then here we are now in twenty
twenty five. But he was a very successful, hard working guy,

(29:41):
and he had a lot of clients, and he flew
them on vacations and went to the island. I don't
understand how he was able to hide this what seems
to me to be some sort of sexual fixation. Maxwell,
I don't she gets cut off from others. Maxwell, I
don't think he did hide it. That's the answer. And
I think that the people around him, I think myself
included Blanche. Yeah, Maxwell obviously normalized his behavior on a

(30:05):
number of fronts. Well, she finally fucking admitted it. You
were culpable, you're a co conspirator. Now just admit that
you abuse people. One. I think because it was self,
because so many people saw it, of so many of
such a high caliber down that never seemed to think
it would Well, if they thought it was strange, probably

(30:27):
they never said it at the time, so it became
sort of like it was his thing, right. He was
always around with women. I understand that it's very unattractive,
especially in light of everything that we know today, but
at the time, the only way I can sort of
try and describe it is through Sex in the City,
the movie, the show on Telly. That lifestyle is described
on the TV show constantly. There are always these women

(30:49):
around and men who like it, and a lot of
the men that I know like women, and so maybe
not as overtly as Epstein, but he was overt, not covert,
except obviously in the context of the criminal behavior. So
what we're discussing now, there's a difference between the criminal
behavior and the non criminal. But you don't like the lifestyle,

(31:09):
I concur I agree, especially now I own my side
of that fence, and I was there and I saw
his behavior with women and didn't challenge him or do something.
I don't think back in the nineties or two thousands,
we've had a cultural shift, and that cultural shift, I
think is very important part of the analysis here, not
because I'm trying to justify this, but I'm not and

(31:30):
I'm not trying to and absolutely am not here to
do the poor me program. Yes you are, that's all
you've been doing, so please don't misunderstand this. However, in
the nineties two thousands, when this behavior was going down,
in the initial blush of the Palm Beach investigation, the
women who brought the women who were under age seventeen sixteen,
I believe, if my memory serves, were actually targets of

(31:51):
the investigation and could have been charged with prostitution and trafficking.
You're talking and taking behavior, and I'm introduced him to women,
but not underage women. I understand that there are allegations
I have read them about myself going to schools. I
can categorically tell you that I have never in my
life gone to a school to pick up a child.
I believe Maria, and not you. Sorry, well, not for

(32:14):
this purpose like my step children and all. But okay, sorry, Blanche, No,
I understand Maxwell, thank you. I just want to be
clear that I'm not trying to be cute or anything.
I went to Spase if I met somebody who said
she was a messuse. I did not check their credentials,
and of course if she was attractive, I did introduce her. Yes,
if I met friends who were interested. He was constantly

(32:37):
asking to meet new and interesting people, and I did
do that. At the time, I viewed it well, first
of all, part of my job, I think, or part
of my responsibility if you were to introduce because it
wasn't just women. If I met someone who was interesting,
like Murray Gellman or who I thought he would like,
I did that. So it's not exclusively, but he did,
and I did do that, Blanche. So I want a

(32:59):
layer on top of a way you just said what
we talked about yesterday more but a little bit today already,
which is everybody that was around them besides you, like
his friends Maxwell Wright. So I accept the lifestyle. I've
seen the photos, the fact that everybody we're all going
to go to the island for a couple of days
where we're flying on a private plane and there's beautiful
women everywhere. I mean, do you, as you sit here today,

(33:21):
think that the people around them weren't also of the
same place where they were also getting massages, where there
was sex going on during them, or things like that.
And I'm obviously asking this because Maxwell cuts them off. Yeah, Blanche,
that's what everybody has said. And when you just described
what it was like, the very next step from that

(33:42):
is everybody's going to Vegas for the weekend. You know,
it seems kind of far fetched to say that, yes,
that was his lifestyle, but then that he's taking groups
of folks to the island or groups of folks to
New Mexico or whatever, that they're all, you know, going
to church in the morning while he's getting a massage.
I hear you. I was there though, and Blanche, yeah, Maxwell,
and you're talking about very substantial people. And you're extrapolating

(34:06):
because the narrative is started, by the way, not until
two thousand and nine is when it really started. So
the narrative was created and then built up, and it
just mushroomed into what basically this is like a Salem
witch trial. People have gone and lost their minds for
this thing. I understand that, But the issue is how
do you satisfy a mob who can't understand the lifestyle,
Because it's like p did Ian re Ducks on TV

(34:28):
with Clinton and Trump. So you're stupid. You just don't understand.
That's what she means. And while some of it is real,
he did do those things. I'm definitely not disputing that.
But this was a man they didn't even believe he
had a real business. I happen to believe he did.
Did he grift? I don't know, because he wasn't really
in his business. But this is one man they've made

(34:48):
him into this. He's not that interesting. He's a disgusting
guy who did terrible things to young kids. You're not
going to hear me say what he did to people
who are over the age eighteen. I'm sorry, I'm not
going there. That's just not what I'm here. I mean, okay,
but to suggest that Larry Summers or Clinton would certainly go,
oh my gosh, this is like a guy I'm going
to get my body rubbed and have some sex. There

(35:10):
are men that went and had a massage and maybe
did something sexual. There are men. I wasn't in the room,
and I can't tell you if that happened, and if
it did, I never paid for that. Just so that
we're clear, nobody ever said that to me, oh you know,
we had sexual intercourse, and that there was a three
negative I'd be like, Okay, tmi, no, not my business.

(35:30):
It's just not and I didn't want to know. Maybe
there's that, but like I think these guys were coming
for that. I really don't. If you met Epstein, there
is no way that this cast of characters, of which
it's extraordinary, and some are in your cabinet who you
value as your coworkers and you know, would be with
him if he was a creeper because they wanted sexual favors.

(35:53):
A man wants sexual favors. He will find that they
didn't have to come to Epstein for that. Now, did
some Okay, I don't. No, I wasn't there. I didn't
see it. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right there,
and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're
gonna pick up where we left off. All of the
information that goes with this episode can be found in
the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another

(36:15):
episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking
up where we left off with Glenn Maxwell, her fireside
chat with Baby Billy Blanche and the DOJ Blanche. So,
when's the last time you think you were with mister Epstein?
When he got a massage. Maxwell, I want to say
two thousand and seven, Blanche, two thousand and seven, Maxwell, Yes, Blanche,

(36:37):
and the frequency at that point, So two thousand and
seven is that when it was at its peak, would
you say, meaning the number of interactions he was having
daily with women and messuses. Maxwell, I wasn't really in
his life. I happened to be in the Caribbean in
two thousand and seven. I was with Ted Blanche, okay, Maxwell,
I was still speaking with Epstein because I was still involved,

(37:00):
you know, loosely with the houses and the staff and
some of the billing. And I was going back from
being with Ted in the Caribbean to New York and
Epstein offered me a ride, and so Ted dropped me
off in saying Thomas and I was on the island
I believe for one day and one night only on
that visit. I believe. I know he would have gotten
a massage. But there were people there, but that were women,

(37:23):
and I was Blanche. Cuts are off, Okay, Maxwell, Just
relieve not to Blanche, Okay, be leaving the next day. Blanche,
Let's take a break, Horn, We're going to take a break.
The time is eleven thirty one. Horn, we're resuming the
audio recorded profer agreement with miss Maxwell and the time
is eleven forty nine, Am Blanche, all right, I wanted

(37:44):
to follow up about former President Clinton's relationship with mister Epstein,
not you. We touched on it, but can you just
set I have a couple of questions about it. But
what's your understanding of their relationship from what you observed,
meaning former President Clinton and mister EPs Maxwell. I saw
them talk. I saw them sit down and have chats
about I don't know, because I wasn't either a party

(38:07):
or didn't listen. I would characterize originally anyway mister Epstein's
interest in him, because obviously he's the former president. But
I never saw him other than that. I saw them
be friendly on the plane. I don't recollect anyway ever
seeing them in any other context. I don't remember him
at the house in New York. Like I said, I
don't believe he ever went to that island. I think

(38:30):
that was just was just a story that redacted did. Nope,
mister Scully saw him too other people as well. Blanche.
Do you know one way or the other whether their
relationship continued without you like when you kind of moved
past mister Epstein. Maxwell, I don't believe so, Blanche. Why
do you say that. You don't believe so, Maxwell, because

(38:50):
I don't think they had a relationship. Even when I
was there, President Clinton like me, and we got along
terribly well. But I never saw that warmth or that
however you want to characterize it with mister Epstein. So
I didn't see that. I didn't see any interest. I
didn't see President Clinton being interested in Epstein. He was
just a rich guy with a plane, Blanche. When the

(39:13):
Southern District of New York case became a public and
there was a search warrant for mister Epstein's house, there
was like a painting or a picture with mister Clinton
in like a blue dress that had been signed. Do
you know where he got that picture or painting? Maxwell?
The first I saw it was in the press, Blanche.
So you never observed Maxwell, no Blanche. No, Maxwell, No.

(39:34):
I thought it was hideous, Blanche. What's that again, Maxwell?
I thought it was hideous, Blanche. So you don't know,
sitting here today where mister Epstein got it, Maxwell, no, Blanche,
the circumstances in which he got it, Maxwell no, Blanche.
Do you know if any other gifts or paraphernalia or
art or pictures that former President Clinton gave to mister Epstein?

(39:56):
Maxwell No, I mean he did maybe get him a gift.
I don't know. I have no knowledge of that, Blanche.
And then going back to the topic that we were
talking about before our last break, Well, when you said
something yesterday at the very beginning of our conversation that
when you first met mister Epstein and you ultimately had
sex with him, I'll use the word a rectile dysfunction,

(40:18):
but he had issues having sex. Maxwell. That's what he
told me. I mean, are people really this stupid? He
wasn't attracted to you, Maxwell, you were too old for him.
Pretty simple. What's going on here, Blanche, that's what he
told you. Maxwell, Yes, Blanche okay. And then over the years,
you said sometime in the nineties he started taking testosterone. Maxwell, Yes,

(40:43):
but I don't know if it was in the nineties,
I don't remember when he started. He had patches testosterone patches,
Blanche okay, Blanche, like on his arm Maxwell, Yes, Blanche okay. Maxwell.
And then he was ridiculous because you shouldn't take more
than one but sometimes I'm like, what are you doing?
It's like unhealthy, Blanche. Okay, from what you observed or

(41:04):
saw or heard, did he continue to have challenges sexually
over the years, or do you think that whatever he
told you, whatever issue he told you was fixed? Maxwell,
I think it was a lie, Blanche. You think he
was lying about what Maxwell about erectile dysfunction? Blanche? Oh,
you mean you never You don't think he ever had
any issues? Do you think he just told you that? Maxwell? Right,

(41:25):
that is what I believe today. But given if any
of the stories are true, even if he had a
rectal dysfunction, the thing had a priapism for Christ's sake, Blanche,
That's one of the reasons for my questions. I mean,
you're right, we've talked about this a fair amount, but
like the stories of what Messus is underage and overage
I've said about him are very You know, what he liked,

(41:47):
what he demanded they do, whether it's watching him masturbate
or pinging his nipples, you know kind of things that
are unusual. Do you believe that from what you saw,
from what you observed, from what you did when you
were in a relationship with him, is that true. Maxwell.
The bulk of what I read, he did not have sex,
So that is consistent with what he told me actually,

(42:09):
and is masturbating. That is also consistent with what I
knew myself. And I'm going to use a bad word. Please,
you can use whatever word you need Maxwell. Blowjob Okay,
he liked blowjobs, Blanche? Okay, Maxwell, that I did observe,
and he didn't seem to have any erectile dysfunction for blowjobs.
But sex he didn't have. So when I read the

(42:29):
stories about all the allegations of sexual rape, I find
that challenging because that was not his modest UPPERENDI from
my perspective, Yeah, you were too old for him. What
don't you grasp about this, Blanche? But when you read
about blowjobs, that would be consistent with kind of Maxwell.
That would be consistent as would masturbation. Yes, Blanche, did

(42:53):
you talk to messuses or women that either he was
in a relationship with or who asked you about working
with them? Did you tell them, yes, he likes blowjobs. Yes,
I'll masturbate in front of you like Did you have
conversations with any of those women about what mister Epstein liked?
Or what made him happy or things he did. Maxwell,
I don't have any memory of telling anybody about that.

(43:14):
I think I may have joked, like saying, oh my god,
you know, like from a sex in the city scene.
You know he's But I never instructed the question you're
asking me. Sorry, let's just be clear. I never instructed
anyone had a pleasure mister Epstein, Blanche, and you said
this earlier, but I want to just you kind of
said it on your own, on your own. I want

(43:35):
to ask the question, but so I'll make sure that
there's no confusion over the years, Maxwell, Sorry, Can I
just yeah, of course, yeah, please Maxwell, Right. I just
want to say, the idea that I would have to
explain to a woman how to satisfy Epstein is patently
absurd because he clearly was able to explain himself. She
didn't need to be the interlocatur to explain what he liked.

(43:58):
He's been doing this, obviously for some version of this story,
his whole life, and did not require any help from me. Blanche.
So did you ever observe him having sex with a
massus regular intercourse, not a blowjob, nothing else where you
either walked in or were in the room. Maxwell, I
never saw him have sex with any person, Blanche, And

(44:18):
so how about oral sex? Did you ever observe a
woman giving a moral sex, whether you were in the
room or walked in, Maxwell, I never saw anyone give
Epstein a blowjob. No, Blanche, but you said earlier you
did see a masturbate in front of Messus's Maxwell. I
don't know if I said that. I don't, Blanche. Oh, okay, sorry,
I don't want Maxwell. If I said that, Blanche, let

(44:40):
me ask you a question, Sorry, Blanche. No, no, that's fair,
that's fair, Maxwell, I said I saw him. I'm sure
I saw him in what some people could define a
sexual contact, because if somebody could not have their clothes
or top list, I would say maybe I could say
that if I saw him having or masturbating when someone
was there. I don't recall that. I don't have a

(45:01):
specific memory for it. I'm sorry, Blanche, okay, Maxwell, but no,
I'm not. She gets caught off by Blanche. Maxwell. I
didn't say that, Blanche. Okay, I understand, that's fair. Maxwell.
That's okay, Blanche, certainly not trying to put words in
your mouth. Maxwell. No, no, no, that's fine. Blanche, I think
in passing. Maybe not in passing. I'm sorry, you know

(45:23):
whether other people who travel with them would get massages.
When I say what, I'm referring mostly to the island
or potentially New Mexico, but also as Pond Beach residents
or even in New York. Do you have a list
of names in your head or names that come to
mind of people that did go get massages that were
with mister Epstein. No, there is no list. There's no

(45:46):
list of people getting massages. I can barely recall all
the people. I can barely recall. I struggle to recall
actual people that I met, and I may have not
met them long ago that I had even forgotten about
miss Kennedy or probably brought it up yesterday. It just
came into my mind now. So there's no list. There

(46:06):
was never a list, or certainly none that I was
aware of, none I heard of, none that I witnessed.
There is no list. There has never been a list, Blanche.
And you never heard mister Epstein talk about a list.
Maxwell never, Blanche, And you never heard mister Epstein suggest
that he had some sort of control over somebody because
of what he knew about what they had done or

(46:27):
had photos of him or anything. Maxwell, I never heard him, No,
I never heard him ask questions about that. So I've
been present many times with messuses. Never who presumably could
or maybe did massage somebody. I'm not saying whether they
did or not. I never heard him ask any question
of any messuse who may have given a massage to

(46:49):
a friend that was on the island or in pom
Beach or anywhere else for that, any details about that massage,
like does he have funky foot? I never heard that,
because weird. And I think at one of the breaks
today your lawyer may have showed you something that just
came out in the paper. I think this morning or
last night, a letter that you that's attributed to you,

(47:10):
associated with this birthday book from two thousand and three
that we talked about yesterday. Maxwell, I did see the
letter Blanche in that look like your handwriting or someone else's. Maxwell.
So I don't remember the letter Blanche, okay, Maxwell, But
it does look like my handwriting, and it does look
like my name, and it looks like it could be real.
But I have no memory of writing that, and I

(47:31):
don't remember it at all. Do you remember what the
birthday book, as they're calling it, what it like looked like,
like how it was put together? Blanche, I do, Blanche,
what do you remember about it? Maxwell? I remember it
it was leatherbound, and I remember it being about yay big.
It was big, Blanche. So you're saying it looks like
over twelve inches fourteen fifteen inches Maxwell, Yes, it was

(47:55):
like sort of a folio size, I guess or something
like that, and like this, and it was brown and
thick about this thick, Blanche, Okay, Maxwell, And to that
cut off by Blanche again and just so I understand,
Maxwell cuts him off. Heavy stock paper, Blanche, heavy stock paper,
like fourteen inches high. Maxwell, That's about right, Blanche. Then

(48:16):
around like Maxwell, we had a four because it was
done on heavy stock paper. But I can't remember if
it was folio sized paper or it could have been
just a four. Blanche. Oh, I see, so it could
have just been letter size, or it might have been
legal size. Maxwell. Yes, Blanche, heavy stock paper, Maxwell, yes, Blanche.

(48:36):
So the folks that submitted letters were given the stock
paper or how were the letters like glue or something
the letters to the stock paper, Maxwell, every which way.
Some were given the paper and they did their own thing.
Some would send me scraps of paper and I would
put it on the thing. Some I didn't even get
because they went straight to Epstein and I was told
just to put them in. Like I said, I thought

(48:57):
you didn't know anything about any of this. I thought
you didn't know what the book was look like weird, Blanche?
And how was it bound? Maxwell? It went to a
professional binder who did it like a book that you'd
see at the library. Maxwell, So like the glue that
keeps a regular book, a novel that you would read together.
It was bound that way. Excuse me, that was Blanche Maxwell,

(49:17):
I believe. So. I don't think it was stitched, but
I don't remember. I mean it was professionally done by
a professional bookbinder, Blanche. And then after you presented it,
or after it was presented to him when he turned fifty,
did you see the leather bound book? Did he keep
it somewhere in particular? Maxwell? It was in his bookcase
in seventy first Street, Blanche in Manhattan, Maxwell, in Manhattan,

(49:40):
And did you see it over the years until you
stop going to the Brownstone? Maxwell? I know I did
see it, because it was right behind his desk, and
after I stopped going, I don't know what happened to it, Blanche.
Do you remember being told or knowing where the book
is now? Maxwell? No, but I received discovery in those pages.
I assume that had been found either in New York
or the Islands, or when they were searched, and I

(50:02):
assume that the Southern District of New York had it. Blanche,
But I think you said yesterday. But just go over
it again in case you remember anything different. You recall
seeing some of the letters in discovery, I do, Blanche.
But do you recall kind of seeing the leather books
start to finish? Maxwell? No, but remember I didn't see
all discovery because they were very clever about it. You know,

(50:24):
I didn't receive all discovery, period and in fact, very
important items were not given to me at all, including
witness testimony from the grand jury. Yeah you don't get that, okay, sorry,
private information, gee, Lane, Blanche. So you don't know one
way or the other whether that was part of discovery.
You just don't know that you didn't get it. It

(50:44):
wasn't part of discovery that was given to you, Maxwell, correct.
I am absolutely sure that the Southern District of New York.
H had very important pieces of evidence from me, Blanche, okay,
and I assumed that they leaked it, because where else
would it be if that's what it is, If it's true, Blanche,
just so I'll put it. I'll say to you, as

(51:06):
I've talked a little bit to your lawyer about it,
I said to you yesterday what the purpose of what
we did yesterday and today was was exactly what we did,
which is to have a conversation about mister Epstein and
about you. And I think it's very challenging to talk
about everything we talked about, and you know, in one
and a half days or so, in just a period
of hours. So I'll talk to mister Marcus about kind

(51:26):
of what we're going to do next. If anything, there
is no I'm not being coy, just don't know yet.
I don't know. I have a lot, we have a
lot of work to do. We'll do it with your
lawyers to the extent we have questions for follow up.
And this has been very helpful. I think it was you, you know,
who kind of said you wanted to talk, but we
gladly accepted it. So I do appreciate you being willing

(51:49):
to meet with me, and I expect that will be
in touch soon. All right Maxwell, Yeah, Spencer Horne. This
concludes the recorded Profer interview of Miss Maxwell. The time
is twelve o five pm on Friday, July twenty fifth.
All Right, folks, well that's a whole lot of bullshit
from start to finish, and not only that, but a
gigantic jack off and a waste of taxpayer dollars. And

(52:13):
if you walk away from this thinking it's anything from
a cover up, do yourself a favor and punch yourself
directly in the face. All of the information that goes
with this episode can be found in the description box.

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