December 12, 2024 • 52 mins
In this raw and revealing episode of First Comes Love, Neisha and John dive deep into one of the toughest challenges they faced in their 17-year marriage: infidelity. They share their personal experience of betrayal, the pain it caused, and the hard truths they had to confront. But this isn’t just a story of heartbreak — it’s a testament to healing, grace, and redemption. Through the storm, they discovered that with God’s guidance, radical honesty, and a commitment to growth, it’s possible to not just survive infidelity, but to thrive beyond it.
Tune in for an episode that’s unfiltered, courageous, and full of hope, as Neisha and John unpack the power of forgiveness, overcoming human nature, and building a marriage that’s stronger than ever.
This one’s for anyone who’s questioned love, faced the pain of betrayal, or wondered if trust can ever be rebuilt.
Press play.. it's time to get real.
Tune in for an episode that’s unfiltered, courageous, and full of hope, as Neisha and John unpack the power of forgiveness, overcoming human nature, and building a marriage that’s stronger than ever.
This one’s for anyone who’s questioned love, faced the pain of betrayal, or wondered if trust can ever be rebuilt.
Press play.. it's time to get real.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Baybe and we're back this episode is I don't know, yes, spicy,
it's spicy. So okay. So we've been married for going
on seventeen years now, and I think when we tell
people that we've been married for that long, first thing,
(00:22):
it's not well, know, when that's an unspoken first thing.
Oh yeah, yeah, like it's an unspoken first thing.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
It's like, all right, what did y'all do?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
I know? Seriously, I think when we tell people that
we've been married for this long, one of the things
that they don't say that you can just kind of
like feel.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
The energy is like, all right, who did it?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Just like, have you guys cheated on each other? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
You did it?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Has there been any kind of like infidelity?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Who did it? Why? When?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Who? How?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
What?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Where?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
All of them? All right?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
So have you cheated on me?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Have you cheated on me?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Let me wine?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I think it's two aspects, uh.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
To answer that question and provided the definition of cheating, Uh,
most of the people will definitely think that cheating is
only when you have sex.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
That's the most common at Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
When people like equate cheating, they equate it to sexual interactions.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yes, But the other side of the coin is people
totally missed this one big missedom of the emotional aspect.
So when you become entangled emotioning with people, uh, that
also that also.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Is getting juicy.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes, well not juice, is you?
Speaker 4 (01:52):
But pause, because that that can be equivalent.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
That could be just as damaging, just as hurtful, just as.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Divisive, just as you know, deabil uh debilitating.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
So I would answer it. I would I would give both.
I had this.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
This is good. Okay, So should we answer this like
it's both?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I it's both, right, it is both.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
But should we answer this.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Question and and like one leads to the other, you
can't have one without the other.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, you can definitely have one without the other.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Technic not realistically speaking though.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Alright, so let's talk about it. Okay. Alright, So we're
not giving we said we're not giving time frames or names, right,
all right, So this is a very interesting situation. We
don't share this story with a lot of people. This
is actually the first time we're talking about this publicly.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
This is this has been a need to know basis.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, I need to know basis. And actually, let me
say that before we actually get into this conversation, because
shout out to pastor Darius Daniels, he said something at
a conference that I was at. Shout out to the
Blair because it was her conference, but he basically talked
about knowing like when and how to tell your story,
(03:18):
like the vulnerable parts of your story. And he said, uh,
basically like knowing the difference between being authentic and transparent,
like when to do that. And so it's always important
to be authentic, but you have to use discernment wise
counsel wisdom to know when you can be transparent. And
(03:38):
so today on this episode, you know, we're choosing to
be transparent because it can free some people.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So yeah, that's that's good. That's a bar thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Sorry, yeah, to get that out. But anyways, so all right,
so let's get into this conversation. So, like we said
at the top of the interview, everybody, I feel like
it's like a looming like a cloud, like when we
tell people we've been married that long and that we're
like in a successful marriage where and it's successful, yeah, thriving, Uh,
(04:10):
you know, relationship. I think one of the overcasting.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Clouds waiting they're like waiting for.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, it's like people kind of want to know and
they see. It's like, you know, social media is deceiving, right,
and so I feel like people see us on social
media and they see us happy, they see us smiling,
they see us, you know, enjoying each.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Other for a long time, for a long time, Like we.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Said, they've been married for like going on seventeen years now. People,
I think in the back of their mind, you know,
people want you to feel for some reason, they want
you to do bad, they want to have something, they
want to be able to have something to say negative
about your relationship, about your status, about whatever.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yes, it's it's just a way of nature.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, it's human nature. And so I think for people,
and this might not be everybody because not to you know,
not to down, there are a lot of people that
are rooting for us, that do support us, that do
love us, that do edify us, that do you know,
they're they're there for us. And so but however, Comma,
I feel like there are like a category of people
(05:15):
when we tell them we've been married for so long,
I feel like there's like an unspoken judgment or an
unspoken curiosity, I'll call it that. But they're wondering, like,
m something, are you really happy? Like is this fake?
Have y'all like, what have y'all gone through? So today
we're gonna talk about it a little bit. Alright, So
what have we gone through? So we started at the
(05:38):
top of the interview of us asking each other, you know,
what do we say? Have you cheated on me? Have
you cheated? Ye? Alright, so alright, we better get real
with y'all. This what y'all want. Y'all want us to
get real. We're about to get real right now in
five four three two? What alright? So take me back
to an experience that you can speak to and I
(06:04):
and I'll respond with what I feel from what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yes, So.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
I do reserve this aspect that is a strong pillar that.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
We have.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
We have not totally totally shattered. And this is my interpretation,
and of course I think you would agree. Yeah, I
said it differently, but we haven't totally shattered the bridge
of trust by sex with someone else. I think that would.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, that's important.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
That's extremely important.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's important. So okay, just for content, all right, So
when we're speaking in terms of infidelity for us specifically,
we are not This podcast is not going to be
in terms of actually sexual intercourse. Yeah, but somebody would argue,
like you said, people would argue, there's sex, it's sins
the only qualifier.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
It's not only no.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Okay, but it's important to know nobody, like I didn't
have sex with nobody trying to have sex with nobody.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Because that we might not be here.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
There's a case period, although it's still recoverable and amendable.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
I do believe in that. But that's not where we're
speaking from.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Soyah, we're not speaking from that.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, to come, we're not coming from that.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, we're not coming from that. Yeah space of like
us telling our stories from having sexual interactions with other people.
But I'm not even about to say yet because I'm
not going.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
To speak that. But yeah, definitely we're not there.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
We're never gonna be there.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Yeah. Wait, First off, do you think once a cheater,
always a cheater?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Ooh, that's a good question. Once a cheater, always a
cheater and the people people I know. But in terms
of like sex, once a cheater when you are sexually
active with another person, yes, well, I don't know, let's
talk about this in words. I'm gonna get my answer
at the end because I don't know. I would say,
(08:15):
now from my own experience, okay, definitely okay, yeah, even
though you have sex to anybody but no, okay guy,
but still tell the story.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah. Uh So this was.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
At a time in my life and our marriage collectively
where something was dangled in front of me and because
I had not built up the the forty two testest
(08:47):
forty two really but the mental for testicular, I mean
the balls to resist. So because I was young enough,
early enough in the m marriage uh to to to
see uh I would say opportunity but for lack of
(09:08):
a better words, to see an opportunity to assess it.
And eventually what I went through was uh did not
count the cost of the decision. Uh So when you
do not have enough uh awareness and you know depthness
of yourself uh to go inside enough. I always say,
(09:29):
if you do not go with, then you will go without.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Well, that season, ultimately that decision.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Was a it it it's it surmised how much I didn't,
how much how young I was, and how ineffective, how
I was not strong enough. I was not didn't have
to will power, I did not have the ability to
see an exit, to see a way out, and so
I did succumb to it, and so n how it
(09:57):
all built up was a little small.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Inkling s of difference of flavor, difference of exposure. Uh
different Hm, how else can I say it? It was
just new. It was a new wrinkle again it, you know,
just it was different.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
And so at that time I was ascending in many
different walks, w many different aspects of uh, of my life.
And so as what people would say when when a
when a man is beginning to ascend in power, you know,
more temptations will arise along with that comes with the territory.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
And so that was pretty much synonymous with that time.
And so there were plenty plenty, plenty plenty signs uh.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
To refute it, to rebuke it, to turn away, clearly
recognize it.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
The phrase I used did not count the costs. Uh,
if I do x YC x y Z, decision is
gonna lead to ABC result. Uh.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
So that literal calculation in my mind, you know a Uh,
I'm fascinating with numbers and the finance.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I did not use that calculation.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
And so what what captivated me was the the the thrill,
the secrecy of how much I was uh hiding from you, Uh,
how much I was, you know, burying and and keeping
uh away from you as as a as part of
day to day week the week, you know, month to
month interactions. Uh, the small checkups we would do with
(11:29):
each other. Uh, I y i hel i H I
hid it well of uh how much I was entertained outside.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Of my home.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
And the more the more the l I crossed the
line emotionally to where it was just simply an an interest.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
It was a like a mental fleeing. It was a mental.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
A challenge if you will, y you know, like like
a lion out in the wilderness. It was it was
the thrill of the the hunt. And so that's that
blinded me uh from from a lion, a male lion. Uh,
mynal's in the wilderness. A male lion, Uh trying to
run after this probably won't happen in in nature. But
(12:17):
a a male lion tryna run after a cheetah, Uh,
it's gonna always evade you. So what I was actually
seeking for to kind of satisfy a certain you know void, Uh,
A cheetah would always outrun a lion, and so I
was left behind and dry.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So there was many examples in nature.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
To where a a lion l does not get what
it was hunting. Uh, so it does not eat what
it what it attempts to hunt. And so that left
me even more uh deprived of of course damage.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
You know, to look me in your face then, and
you know I wanted you to obviously tell you from
my own self, uh, not.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Here from anyone else. Uh.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
And so to hear as my as my words was
leaving my mouth enter into your ear, and it was
beginning to sink in your heart the brevity and just
the gravity and the weight of what had occurred. That
that epitomized that the thrill of that chase was not
(13:21):
worth it.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
It was a It was a loss. It was a
loss from the beginning from the Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
But and we're actually it's not I'm not it's not
a joke. But at this point, and you know, we've
healed from it, we've done the work. But when you're
in that moment and I just think this is so interesting,
and I don't want to just you know, I want
to unpack this a little bit, because when you're talking
about like the thrill and the hunt, you know that
(13:48):
analedge the chase, Yeah, the quest. Men love men, love
the idea of a quest, yes, whether it be good
or bad. So for you and this particular situation, in
this particular predicament, it was a quest for sin obviously, ultimately,
like when you're in the moment when men maybe if
(14:10):
you can speak for men at large or just yourself
because you are men, so you have the right to
do that. But like when you're in the moment, like
you said, I guess, like what are you thinking? Like
you know this is wrong? So I'm very confused. I mean,
people know that stuff is wrong, but like, are you thinking,
like I'm not gonna get caught? Like, like what is
(14:32):
going through your mind?
Speaker 3 (14:34):
So the end of that, that is a part of
the mental faculties. So not gonna get caught. It can
be brushed away, never to be spoken. Abut again, there
is a larger part of the calculation of those decisions.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
It is totally void of logic. That's actually yes, yeah, unlogical.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah. Uh so that's a good point too, so s sin.
So you won't overcome sin until it is full grown.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
So in other words, hm, you playing with fire almost.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Uh, it's just a it's a part of the process.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
It is a part of the you know, the the predicament,
but you won't ever overcome it until there is a
essentially like a day of reckoning, until sin is full
grown into your life and it's it. It fully ravishes
and wrecks and rules and steals and you know, destroys.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Th Unfortunately, it.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Must go through that process in its entirety before like
an example, I can stand on this side of that perspective,
uh and have that be way in the past, have
that be beneath me, behind me, you know, m B
and be able to face it again and well before
you know anything repeating so s s sin to overcome
(16:06):
it truly, uh, you know, to uh repent from it,
turn away. Uh it it must be foregrown outside.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Of me, it's above me.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
So when I realized that I, you know, reflecting back
in all of it, I I so I I wouldn't
be able to I W. It's almost like a foregrown
conclusion that I needed to go and and keep pushing
the line, keep pushing the barrier because I've been drawn in.
But to k to keep pushing the line, keep pushing
(16:36):
the barrier of the what if? Uh, the thrill of
the chase, the excitement, the secrecy, all of those you
know f components you know of of the situation.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I W I would if I would not have been
able to return out of it.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
It was like quick saying. And so the further I
went into it, the deeper I got. And I can't
be fully rescued from you know a quicksand uh until
I am you know, fur further enough in it to
where I will have ah such a disdain and a distaste,
and I will be able to recognize my enemy. I
(17:15):
would be able to recognize the the the functions and
the w.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I'm trying to say, the uh, the tactics of my enemy.
That's what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Because if I put if you put one toe in
a quick s in, one foot in quicksand, that's not
enough damaging to you.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
That's not enough of a.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Pull of a draw for you to really familiarize yourself
with the dangers of Quicksand same with a with a kid,
a baby obviously we have a uh a baby uh
approaching tolleran stage here soon.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Her interests in touching a socket, her interest in touching
something hot, She's not really.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Gonna learn the lesson. We're that what I I do that.
That's funny.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Uh, she's not going to really fully get the lesson
enough to turn away from it to never do it again.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, until it has reached full grown.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, okay, that's good. So I actually want to like,
that's great that you're saying that, because one thing that
you're mentioning that I think it's worth, like, you know,
sharing with other people. That's particularly interesting with our situation
and our story that I want to highlight is when
you knew you did the wrong thing, what you shared
(18:33):
with me candidly is that? And you know, you can
kind of reshare this this story like to your own version,
but as far as I can recollect from when it happened,
is you you know, you realize the extent you know
of what you had done, or the ramifications rather of
what you had done. And you went outside and you screamed.
(18:59):
Is that something that happened? Do you remember that, like
you went outside, you were at work, and then you
went outside and then you screamed outside because you couldn't
believe what you just did. Do you remember telling me
that I know? Yes? Which is interesting? Okay, okay, okay,
So yeah, we're gonna talk about that some more. But
but yeah, so when you and then let me just
(19:20):
back up a little bit. So the other interesting dynamic
to what John is sharing with me that a lot
of people don't experience it, I will say I am
grateful for and I do think it played a part
in my healing process is that John admitted to me himself.
So John would have never told me this story, never
(19:41):
brought it up, never mentioned it. I would have never
known about it, which is unusual. So let's just start
right there, like that's unusual, that's not a thing. And
so he came to me, I think after a church service.
I remember that it was on a Sunday. It was honest,
Sunday after I'm dead. So okay, okay, relaxed. So so
(20:10):
I guess, okay, so when you is this cheating and
this is considered cheating.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Absolutely all right? Okay, yeah, definitely all right.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
So when you realize, oh my god, I've cheated on
my wife, I have to actually tell her about it.
The day has come, I've already done that. I've already
done the done, I've already done the thing. So take
me back to that moment, like you're you know, taking
back to that moment when you realize that you have
to tell me a twist. Okay, this is gonna be
(20:41):
like take me, put me back, put me in this story,
because I'm sitting here just like enjoying the service. But
like you're thinking, I got today's day, So tell me
take me back to the money when you realize today
today is the day.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
The interesting twist was when I could not hold it
in anymore and I knew that day was the day
that that Sunday, Uh, it was actually the most freeing
day that I had in a long while, cause I
knew I would be free from it.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
MM. That's that's powerful.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
So so actually, as I'm reliving it driving home, driving
back home after the service that day, I was actually
more excited to simply reveal it and get it out
of me than I was afraid of the the ramifications
I wanted. I was so thirsty for the freedom, the peace,
(21:39):
the the freedom of mine.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
I was so longing for that. And it was a
real and tangible uh experience that I was.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I was, I was feeling emotionally and mentally uh that
whatever the ramifications was. When I decided to tell her it,
it it paled in comparison. It wasn't even close, so
I would I had reached my reached his WIT's.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
End, and and and this, oh, this is this was
good too. In a moment.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
I was, Oh, this is so I was gonna be
so thrilled to be free from it that I did
that I did, Oh this is gonna be that I
didn't It didn't matter.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
But I'll say loosely, I didn't care.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
But it didn't. I didn't truly care how it would
have changed my life after that. I just know explain
So so if you so, if you wanted to walk away,
you did not want to amend it with me, You
did not want to work through it, okay, which means life,
(22:46):
you know.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Reard so you were more happy to get to to
get it off.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Of you and experience the trueness of peace and you know,
living a righteous life. You know, in that moment, because
I I held it in, it wasn't long, maybe like
a month or so, month and a half. And so
for those handful of weeks, you know, month, month and
a half or whatever, very excruciating to hold it in,
(23:11):
you know, day to day, to look you in the eye,
to do life with you day to day, sleep food,
knowing knowing that yeah inside, yeah, so that's what burned
me up even more. It was like, yeah, okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I hate to go back. I don't hate to go back.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I'm a woman, but.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
And my time is gonna come. So I'm not innocent, yes,
but but I hate to go back. I don't. I
don't hate to go back. I want to go back
because you just had something interesting and I want to
look look at that. So you knowing, like you just said,
day to day like we're just doing regular life. I'm
over here playing, we're playing house like I'm living life
with you.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
I got a dirty dark seeking.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Yes, Like how are you doing that?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Like?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
How are you just continuing to live life.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
In your compartmentalizing? What do you mean compartmentalizing? Putting? Putting
that is gonna have a dead reckoning. It's on it.
It's uninvadable.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
So I'm going to pick that up and place it
in his box, silly with a key, and then I'll
come back and talk.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
I'll come back and deal with that.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Wow, I don't know if that's an Is that a
man thing?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
We can't compartmentalize?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Probably, but do you guys know you're compartmentalizing. Do you know, like, Okay,
I know I did this terrible thing. I'm going to,
like you said, I'm literally going to take this thing
and set it aside and just act like I'm happy
that my wife just made this incredible chicken alfredo tonight
on Tuesday, like and not talk about the fact that
I just cheated on her time. Do you consciously know
(24:42):
I'm com com or it's like a subconscious.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
I believe men can do that at a higher degree
than women. When there are stressors, when there's challenges, when
there's when there's aspects that push us to the most
uncomfortable parts of us, we know how to absorb that
(25:06):
and and deflect it and then continue to press on.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
So so like, would there be a side all right, okay,
so let me just backtrack a little bit. So would
there be a moment where you felt like I should
tell her now or I'm just gonna say it, or
was it like.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
That you didn't feel right? It didn't feel right?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
So how did you know that that was the moment.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
When I the moment I knew it is.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I knew that when I did say it, and it
literally left my mouth into your ear you sunk it
down to your heart as I was replaying that, especially
that morning. But when I was replaying it in my mind,
I knew that I would experience more joy, peace and serenity.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Why are you saying joy?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Because I would be free from the poison. It's like
you had.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
It's like you you somebody's diagnosed with cancer and you
go through all of the chemo.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Now you free free.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
But you know, the the cancelor has been eradicated throughout
the thing, so that that moment of jubilee of knowing
this thing is now passed, this thing is now out
of me, is gone. I'm gonna have to worry about
it and have to think about it and have to
plan and be careful with my words or my facial
expression or the energy vibes that I'm manipulating, you know,
(26:20):
to give off if I no longer have to do that.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That was freely enough.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
It was free enough to to accept whatever well would
have come up it mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Wow, that's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
And so so so you you remember that day? What
was my demeanor? So all right, so interestingly enough. Yeah,
so as as this is coming out.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I'm gonna of the story. So I remember the day
very vividly because it's one of those days where you're like,
at this point, me and John, you know, we've been
married like a handful of years at this point, and
so I was so shocked. I was so shocked because
you have such a great track record because.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Before you you do overview, but to kind of put
a nail on my end and then you know, you
can speak from your point of view.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
But my demeanor, your demeanor was, like I said, okay,
so your demeanor was very calm. Your demeanor was very
what's the world? Okay? So I see how you're seeing,
like you're using the words that.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
It's very free.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
It brought you peace. I do see that. So like
I remember that on a second, Hold on a second,
because I'm about to tell my side of the story.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Oh my god, Cap shout out to cap Radande.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Okay, So no, your demeanor was very uh okay, So
let's just be similarities. I totally see those similarities.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Was that a shock or surprise? What? Well, it was
a little bit about all right.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I will say this. You did seem a little nervous,
but you seemed secure in your nervousness because the phrase
that you kept saying before you, like when you were getting.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Ready to tell me and can we sit down?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, you did say that. But the phrase that you
kept repeating out of nervousness was I'm hiding behind God.
I'm hiding behind God. So it was like a it
was like a double and it was like a duality
or like what do they call it? Oh my god,
it was like a juxtaposition. Yeah, it was a druxtposition.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Because it was going to be fine.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, because you seemed nervous about what you were telling me,
but you also seemed confident that you could tell me
because you were hiding behind God. Yeah, you kept saying yeah,
Like when you were telling me, I'm like, what is
he about to say? What is about to say? He's like,
I'm hiding behind God. I'm hiding behind God. I just
(28:59):
want to talk to you about something, but I'm hiding
behind I can't. But I was like, okay, you hid
him by God.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Like like why do you keep saying?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
But it was like a nervousness. So in the flesh least,
in the flesh space, you were very nervous obviously, like
any any human. It's flesh. Any human would be nervous
about telling somebody that they love that, hey, I've done
something terrible to you, and this makes me sad, obviously.
But then in the same sense, you seemed calm. Yeah,
(29:35):
you seem calm and like at peace because you were
hiding behind God. So he was your refuge, he was
your safe space. He was your okay, Like, whatever happens happened.
So when you're telling me this, I'm like, oh my gosh,
I'm sitting there and you're like, I guess we're on
the couch and let me set the scene for y'all
(29:57):
in case you're listening. So we're on the couch. Is
a Sunday, just go home from church. I don't know
what we're doing whatever. John says, Hey, I need to
talk to about something. Can you come sit on the couch.
I'm like, okay, blah blah blah. So we're sitting on
the couch and John keeps saying that phrase. He keeps saying,
I'm hiding by I'm hiding by God, I'm hiding by
and God and blah blah blah blah. He's saying all
(30:17):
this stuff, and he's like, so, do you want me
tell you what you actually did, or just leave it,
leave it for the room for the imagination.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
I don't remember exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Do you want me to say it because we said
it's not sex. Yeah, but so do you want me
to say, like specifically what he was or just leave it?
We'll just leave it, all right. So he tells me
what he does right with another woman, and I am floored. No,
like when I say like, when I say floored, I
(30:49):
mean the air. Yes, like the air has totally been
I can't believe that as it's real life. So he
admits to me what he has done, which I had
absolutely no idea, would have never known, would have never thought,
which I will do to this day. I will commend
you for that because that's very rare, that's very unusual
(31:10):
for a man.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Oh I thought you say commandment for.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Not no no, no, no no. I don't command you for
doing that.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Where we going with this?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
No, I don't command you for doing that, But I
do commend you for being able to come to me
as a man to tell me, hey, this is what
I did. That is unusual and rare, and I respect
you for that, and I think that helped during the
healing process. But I will say He told me this, y'all,
and I was shocked, like I couldn't believe it. And
I was like, is this real life right now? And
(31:40):
I remember, you don't remember it, but you told me
like after you had done the incident, you went outside
that you had to return back to work. You went
outside and you screamed and you like started like like
screaming at the sky. You couldn't believe it. You were
so disgusted with yourself. You don't remember that not, so wait,
(32:02):
was it true?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
No, you did tell me.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Yeah, you did tell me this because I as parallels
to our stories. That's what I'm bringing only because there's parallels.
So you told me about like you're doing this. You
went back to work and you just couldn't you couldn't
handle that, Like I.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Literally just did this, okay.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
And you went to work and you said you went outside.
Nobody was there. It was just you on the shift actually,
and you went outside and you screamed, and I said,
like that's interesting. He's like, yeah, I literally, so I've
never done this before. I went outside and that screen.
I was like, oh okay. And so anyways, when he
saw me this, I literally felt like I got hit
like I got t boned by like a semi truck.
(32:48):
I just was so shocked. I just was like, is
this real life? We've had such a great track worker,
we're role models, we're Christians, people look up to us,
We've had such like you know, we're we're doing good.
And so I was like distraught, total total, total distraught,
total devastation, total shock. Like I was numb and I
(33:13):
don't remember. Do you remember like an initial reaction like
I didn't want you to touch me. I was just
like please touching me, don't talk to me.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Like that stuck out to me the most. I think
it was your your outbursts.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
It's like you broke from the inside as the words
were becoming more real. It's like physically yeah, and then
then you're like wait, I think it well, yeah, I
think it was it was an outburst.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Because it's just total blindside.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
It's like you, yeah, I can I can remember you
wailing and just like again just breaking from the outside
like an erupted almost like a volcano, like they erupted
with yeah, with realization, Oh.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, that's what's that bar? So yeah, you erupted it
like a fuck.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Alright, alright, let's just say it. Let's just say it,
let's just talk about it. I think it's important. I
don't know why we did that that night.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Oh yeah yeah, definitely added yeah, yeah, because it was
extremely important.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah, so for whatever reason, like within hours.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Let's not talk about it.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Definitely talk about it.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
So before we say that within hours, cause of course
it was right off the afternoon, you know, right after church,
So within hours. I immediately since it was first of
all the right time and the right decision to do
it that day. But I had, and you speak to
this because it's my perspective, but I had within a
(34:53):
few hours, immediately with with strong conviction and confidence, that
she had forgiven me. That same day that box was
checked for me. So now it was my responsibilit because
I broke the trust. I blew up the bridge of
trust in that uh, in our relationship. Uh, my responsibility
from that point until until she told me, alright, we
(35:15):
we're done. Uh, you know, without saying it.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Is that the better? Oh? Sorry?
Speaker 3 (35:23):
So my job was to repair what I had broken,
w you know, to to make amends.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
But she immediately began to show that she had forgiven me,
and that sealed the deal for me that first off,
cause I always believe that uh a repeated decision r
a ber a repeated mistake is a decision on un't
say again. So once she once I realized that within
(35:51):
a few hours her she had forgiven me without saying
it now, cause this is just devastating news. I I
began to be confident that my wife had uh forgiven
me for breaking her trust and you know, committed infidelity.
And I was confident in that I would be able
(36:12):
to uh uh t to rebuild the bridge of trust
that I broke wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, because I knew that when
so a repeated mistake is a decision, and so I
knew that that was not my mo that was not
a part of me, that was not something I was
(36:33):
gonna continue to do because I knew that I did
not count the cost of full assessment of you know,
uh going down to this road, going down that road
in that journey th that l connected me made me
more in love with her even more.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
And so what that led into.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I wouldn't say that. Okay, so that is good, That
is profound that you're saying that because a lot of
people obviously I'm regular, I'm human, I'm pleashed. Did I
have a lot of follow up questions? Was I asking
a lot of things that were low frequency questions?
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Like one percent? Did I look at his phone? Did
look at the messages? Did I try to figure out? What?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
What?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
What? How?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
What? Who? What? When?
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Where?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
How? Yes?
Speaker 1 (37:19):
However? Come, I will say to your what you're talking about?
What you're speaking to? And I get this question a
lot because a lot of women are like, how how
how how were you able to forgive him that fast?
And this is what I say, And it's powerful. I
say I was able to forgive my husband because I'm
(37:42):
a Christian before I'm a wife. I hope, well guess
next for that, okay, And I'm saying that because it's
important who I am as a believer. I was able
to see my husband through the lens as a fellow
believer who had fallen, who has sin first first, and
(38:02):
so I was able to see you as a fella
believer first and then see you as my husband's second,
which was very painful. But I was able to see
you as like dang, John, Yeah, no for real, Like
it was like, yeah, dang, a fellow believer, Like I
(38:25):
get it, man, like it and it's easier said than done,
but I want to I want to impart that to
you guys, because I think I think that's so powerful
of like being able to just you know, have a
distinguishing factor between those two things. And I think that's
what saved our marriage really is that, you know, you know,
(38:46):
God had given me the wisdom to be able to
have that idea.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
So she saw me as God saw me, and so
she was in the moment, in the rawness of that
moment within like I said, within a few hours, she
was able to tap into a a different mindset, different frequents.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
She was able to go within.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
And s literally see me as God sees me, and
a all of us we've we've had short comings and
we've y you know, fall into s s uh sanitation
you know, any other uh shark coming uh because God
sees it also as a little baby attempting to walk. Uh,
(39:26):
You're gonna fall down, but you're gonna get back up.
And so when he so, when he, when God ex
extends his grace to us, Uh, it is not something
that we uh can earn. It's not something that you
can work, work, work, do do do check this box
off and then grace is extended.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
It is a free gift. And so sh.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Sh the the Q, the quickness, the the the speed
that she was able to extend grace. Grace is something
that you uh d uh, you cannot deserve did what
I did. Did not deserve this s obediency, uh, the
expediency of her forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
But she extended it to me.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
And so I, well, I guess you just said when
she extended it and I was able to discern that
without her using the words I, I was m spiritually
able to discern that she had forgiven me. I was
more excited to rebuild now this bridge that I that.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I that I blew up.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
I was ecstatic, I was thrilled. I was motivated, and
I was that w that was my heart's MI, that
was my mission for my life at that point. I
needed to rebuild something that the reconciliation.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yes, to reconcile things.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Uh, and that that was I wore that, uh you
know on my shoulder. U put the weight of that
on me, and I I just got I put my
head down, got the work on reconciling things. And you
know it, it definitely worked out too.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
It's good. Yeah, uh so bad? Yeah, h so good
to where? Uh? I guess you you can s I wanna.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
I'm not gonna say it. You have to you talking
about the yes, all right.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
Because this is this is like I don't I think
this is part.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Of the healing process. And I don't know if you guys,
you know, leave it in the comments, if you've dealt
with this too, if you've gone through pain and you
use this. I don't know why this happened, but it
did happen. So this is the same night John, you know,
revealed this information to me. I was able to send grace,
able to see him as a Christian before I as
a wife. You know, forgive him for that, even though
(41:27):
let's just be clear when I say forgiveness, and this
is a This is great because I didn't necessarily not
think about it anymore that he did this, But the
emotion that was attached to me learning about it when
he did it was gone. So you remove the Yeah,
(41:50):
you removed the sting. So the way that you'll know
that you've forgiven somebody is that you won't feel the
exact same emotion that you felt when you learned about it.
So that's how you know you have forgiven. It doesn't
mean that you won't ever think about it, that it
won't ever come to you know, to your mind and
it won't ever come up something triggers or nothing like that.
(42:11):
It doesn't mean that. But true forgiveness. A sign that
you'll know that you have forgiven somebody is that you
won't feel the exact excite, the exact same emotion, emotional
steam and pain. So it came with the onset of
you learning about this thing.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
So you have a scar you got as a kid hurt,
a painful, painful hurt. And so now you're grown up
and you still see the scar on your leg or.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Knee or whatever. Yeah, but it doesn't hurt, but it
doesn't hurt anymore. That's how you know. That's that's true,
true forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
True forgiveness. But okay, so I'm saying, So that happened,
and then later that night that was like top ten,
all right, So later that night we actually had sex
on the same night that I learned that you had
broken the confines of our marriage. Yes, why do you
(43:08):
think that happened? I will say for me, I think
it was an emotional I needed a release, Okay, I
needed a release, but I was. But it was a
very I will say it was a very detached sexual experience. Nonetheless,
are about detach detached in the sense that, like I am,
(43:33):
we are having we are having sex with one another
because I need like an actual physical release of all
of the you know, you see what I'm saying, like.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
All of this because I can't remember why is this? Yeah,
I can remember that I was. I was thinking to myself,
like why is this? Like why is it having so soon?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
I was so confused that why we were having sex? Agree,
it was a very situation. But at the same time,
I needed that I needed a physical release. I was,
and I don't recommend this like this, this is not like.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah, I remember, like I had a moment. Why is
why is this?
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Okay, you don't need to do that. You don't need
to do the movement, but move this that you just
did that you don't All right, we need a part two.
All right, we need a part two. We gotta wrap
it up. So let me say this. So I learned
about this information, so we had the physical release, but
you got to unpackt that some more in the next episode.
(44:40):
But at the same time, I remember vividly, which I
want to I want to highlight this before we go.
Is I went, okay, after all this happened, you're revealing
this to me. I am like blindsided. I feel crushed.
I'm crumbled. All the things, all the fields. I where
we lived at at the time, there was a there
(45:00):
was an area where I could go where I was
like in the woods basically like there was like a
wood a wooden, like a woodsy like area. And I
remember driving to the woods because I didn't know what
else to do. I'm like, this is crazy, this is
this can't be real life, Like we've done so good,
We've done I think that was the biggest blow. I
(45:22):
think that was the biggest blow, was like are you crazy?
Like are you crazy? Like we've done so good? Is
this real? Is this a real story? This is a
joke and it wasn't. And so I remember going to
the woods and I was just like, God, I don't know,
(45:44):
I don't know. And I remember I've never willed before
you like you use that word well, like I remember
screaming into the pillow. But when I went to the woods,
I remember screaming into the pillow with you, like when
you were telling me that. I was like, oh my god,
this a can this can't be, Like, I gotta scream.
I have to do something. I cannot keep this energy
inside my body. Yeah, and so hints the screaming and
(46:05):
the pillow hints to having the sex with you. And
then I remember driving to the woods and I'm like,
I have to scream. I have to scream, like I
don't know what to do with this energy. So I
went to the woods. Of course, I called my mom
because she's like my best friend. I told my mom
this is what happened to me. I'm sick. I'm sick
(46:25):
right now, and she gave me some advice. Blah blah
blah blah. I guess the phoe my mom. I'm in
the middle of the woods, I'm in my car, and
I just scream at the top of my lungs, like
scream like that where I'm like whaling, Like you use
the word whaling or I don't know if people know
(46:46):
what that means, Like to whale means to be hysterical
to the point where you're like crying so hard, hey,
like you're shaking, you're shivering, Like it's a it's an experience,
it's an experimental experiential Is that a word? It's an experience?
(47:07):
Is that a word for? I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Look stupid at the end.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Okay, it's an experiential cry. Basically, it's an outpouring of
sadness that you have to physically release. So I did that.
There's parts, there's parts of you that you don't even
know we're in there that are just like like it's intense.
So anyways, I will in the woods. Oh that's a book.
(47:32):
I Will in the woods. But anyways, mm hmm, I
will in the winds. That's good.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
But anyway, so I like, I'm I'm screaming, I'm crying.
Nobody can hear me except for myself. I hear an echo,
I hear me, I hear God in anyways, and that's that.
In that moment, I found like my own peace. And
I feel like you gotta go crazy, like, don't try
to act regular when traumatic things happen to you, like
like take them in, fill them, you know, experience them,
(48:04):
let them run through you, don't go yeah, let them
take their course. Because I let the emotions take its
course specifically, and I think that helps me a lot.
Like between you telling me about it, me choosing to
extend grace, and then me actually going through the cathartic
process of wailing in the woods. Everybody doesn't have access
(48:27):
to the woods, which I get that, but like find
somewhere where you can scream if it's your bathroom or
like a local park, whatever, but like do something because
it helped me and it was very profound in my
healing process. So yeah, we gotta wrap We gotta wrap
up this episode.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Ok, so this was me the next.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah, so I'll go next in mind is.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
So I would say, so we go through this at
the having I can kind of say like a spotless
marriage earlier.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
And so as she will devote you know here sharply.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
But I there's parts of me that feel like I
felt more painted devastation, disappointment because I had already crossed
that bar and revealed so much, was so open, so transparent.
It it like it it caused such a division in
(49:31):
our marriage at that time. Of course I was the.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Example like please learn from learn from me. This is
not good.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Yeah, that's essentially what it was, because I would because
part of it how I got I experienced my freedom
so quickly was I was able to diet detach like
who I am, Like a mistake doesn't define you. It's
different if you keep repeating, Now, that's different. But you know,
a mistake, that's a that's the sitting there.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
So I realized that the mistake didn't define me. So
I was able to separate. So I was able to
think greater than how I felt. And so when you
do that, you literally put yourself in another perspective. It's
almost like having a third person view looking down at
us right now on this couch. And so you can
literally have you can see, you have access to this
(50:23):
corner of the room, that corner over there behind you.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
When you have an elevated perspective.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
And that's what you do when you when you tap
into God, how your consciousness, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
And so.
Speaker 3 (50:36):
To have that and to be all of this reconciliation,
I was constantly revealing it, telling these stories and you know,
giving her information, answering all the questions.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
But this is the point.
Speaker 3 (50:49):
She kept asking those questions, and I said, I was
literally excited.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
I was. I was.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
I showed up to work every day, to work every
day to reconcile things I had broken, and so to
go through this entire ordeal and then that she's gonna reveal.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
I would I felt almost as almost as betrayed as.
Speaker 6 (51:10):
You and blindsided and blindsided because we literally, I literally
it was intentional about rebuilding this thing back and then
it was broken again.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
M hmm.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Part two produces up again. Part two Part two, Yeah,
stay tuned. We're gonna talk about a lot, like I
have some more questions for you that I definitely want
to unpack and they can help people. But yeah, this
was a great introduction, was it. It was good. It
was refreshing to hear, like, oh, I guess refreshing is
(51:48):
the word. Yeah, yeah, Okay, I don't know what time
it is, but where do we need to go? You
feel like it's time? Okay, all right, we have next episode?
Yeah yeah, yeah, episode episode whatever. But part two of
this conversation, we're gonna talk about tastisement, we're gonna talk
about shame. We're gonna talk about a lot of things actually,
(52:13):
So yeah, thank you for having this conversation with me.
It's out there in the in the open, like the
world knows, and here we are seventeen years later.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
You can do it. We can do it. You can
do it. Keep stacking him. Cam joined from the Saints.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Okay, all right, this is uh another episode that first
comes love than speak
Baybe and we're back this episode is I don't know, yes, spicy,
it's spicy. So okay. So we've been married for going
on seventeen years now, and I think when we tell
people that we've been married for that long, first thing,
(00:22):
it's not well, know, when that's an unspoken first thing.
Oh yeah, yeah, like it's an unspoken first thing.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
It's like, all right, what did y'all do?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
I know? Seriously, I think when we tell people that
we've been married for this long, one of the things
that they don't say that you can just kind of
like feel.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
The energy is like, all right, who did it?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Just like, have you guys cheated on each other? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
You did it?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Has there been any kind of like infidelity?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Who did it? Why? When?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Who? How?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
What?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Where?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
All of them? All right?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
So have you cheated on me?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Have you cheated on me?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Let me wine?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I think it's two aspects, uh.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
To answer that question and provided the definition of cheating, Uh,
most of the people will definitely think that cheating is
only when you have sex.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
That's the most common at Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
When people like equate cheating, they equate it to sexual interactions.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Yes, But the other side of the coin is people
totally missed this one big missedom of the emotional aspect.
So when you become entangled emotioning with people, uh, that
also that also.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Is getting juicy.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes, well not juice, is you?
Speaker 4 (01:52):
But pause, because that that can be equivalent.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
That could be just as damaging, just as hurtful, just as.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Divisive, just as you know, deabil uh debilitating.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
So I would answer it. I would I would give both.
I had this.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
This is good. Okay, So should we answer this like
it's both?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I it's both, right, it is both.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
But should we answer this.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Question and and like one leads to the other, you
can't have one without the other.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, you can definitely have one without the other.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Technic not realistically speaking though.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Alright, so let's talk about it. Okay. Alright, So we're
not giving we said we're not giving time frames or names, right,
all right, So this is a very interesting situation. We
don't share this story with a lot of people. This
is actually the first time we're talking about this publicly.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
This is this has been a need to know basis.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, I need to know basis. And actually, let me
say that before we actually get into this conversation, because
shout out to pastor Darius Daniels, he said something at
a conference that I was at. Shout out to the
Blair because it was her conference, but he basically talked
about knowing like when and how to tell your story,
(03:18):
like the vulnerable parts of your story. And he said, uh,
basically like knowing the difference between being authentic and transparent,
like when to do that. And so it's always important
to be authentic, but you have to use discernment wise
counsel wisdom to know when you can be transparent. And
(03:38):
so today on this episode, you know, we're choosing to
be transparent because it can free some people.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So yeah, that's that's good. That's a bar thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Sorry, yeah, to get that out. But anyways, so all right,
so let's get into this conversation. So, like we said
at the top of the interview, everybody, I feel like
it's like a looming like a cloud, like when we
tell people we've been married that long and that we're
like in a successful marriage where and it's successful, yeah, thriving, Uh,
(04:10):
you know, relationship. I think one of the overcasting.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Clouds waiting they're like waiting for.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, it's like people kind of want to know and
they see. It's like, you know, social media is deceiving, right,
and so I feel like people see us on social
media and they see us happy, they see us smiling,
they see us, you know, enjoying each.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Other for a long time, for a long time, Like we.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Said, they've been married for like going on seventeen years now. People,
I think in the back of their mind, you know,
people want you to feel for some reason, they want
you to do bad, they want to have something, they
want to be able to have something to say negative
about your relationship, about your status, about whatever.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yes, it's it's just a way of nature.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, it's human nature. And so I think for people,
and this might not be everybody because not to you know,
not to down, there are a lot of people that
are rooting for us, that do support us, that do
love us, that do edify us, that do you know,
they're they're there for us. And so but however, Comma,
I feel like there are like a category of people
(05:15):
when we tell them we've been married for so long,
I feel like there's like an unspoken judgment or an
unspoken curiosity, I'll call it that. But they're wondering, like,
m something, are you really happy? Like is this fake?
Have y'all like, what have y'all gone through? So today
we're gonna talk about it a little bit. Alright, So
what have we gone through? So we started at the
(05:38):
top of the interview of us asking each other, you know,
what do we say? Have you cheated on me? Have
you cheated? Ye? Alright, so alright, we better get real
with y'all. This what y'all want. Y'all want us to
get real. We're about to get real right now in
five four three two? What alright? So take me back
to an experience that you can speak to and I
(06:04):
and I'll respond with what I feel from what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yes, So.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
I do reserve this aspect that is a strong pillar that.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
We have.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
We have not totally totally shattered. And this is my interpretation,
and of course I think you would agree. Yeah, I
said it differently, but we haven't totally shattered the bridge
of trust by sex with someone else. I think that would.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, that's important.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
That's extremely important.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's important. So okay, just for content, all right, So
when we're speaking in terms of infidelity for us specifically,
we are not This podcast is not going to be
in terms of actually sexual intercourse. Yeah, but somebody would argue,
like you said, people would argue, there's sex, it's sins
the only qualifier.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
It's not only no.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Okay, but it's important to know nobody, like I didn't
have sex with nobody trying to have sex with nobody.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Because that we might not be here.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
There's a case period, although it's still recoverable and amendable.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
I do believe in that. But that's not where we're
speaking from.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Soyah, we're not speaking from that.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, to come, we're not coming from that.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, we're not coming from that. Yeah space of like
us telling our stories from having sexual interactions with other people.
But I'm not even about to say yet because I'm
not going.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
To speak that. But yeah, definitely we're not there.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
We're never gonna be there.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Yeah. Wait, First off, do you think once a cheater,
always a cheater?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Ooh, that's a good question. Once a cheater, always a
cheater and the people people I know. But in terms
of like sex, once a cheater when you are sexually
active with another person, yes, well, I don't know, let's
talk about this in words. I'm gonna get my answer
at the end because I don't know. I would say,
(08:15):
now from my own experience, okay, definitely okay, yeah, even
though you have sex to anybody but no, okay guy,
but still tell the story.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah. Uh So this was.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
At a time in my life and our marriage collectively
where something was dangled in front of me and because
I had not built up the the forty two testest
(08:47):
forty two really but the mental for testicular, I mean
the balls to resist. So because I was young enough,
early enough in the m marriage uh to to to
see uh I would say opportunity but for lack of
(09:08):
a better words, to see an opportunity to assess it.
And eventually what I went through was uh did not
count the cost of the decision. Uh So when you
do not have enough uh awareness and you know depthness
of yourself uh to go inside enough. I always say,
(09:29):
if you do not go with, then you will go without.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Well, that season, ultimately that decision.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Was a it it it's it surmised how much I didn't,
how much how young I was, and how ineffective, how
I was not strong enough. I was not didn't have
to will power, I did not have the ability to
see an exit, to see a way out, and so
I did succumb to it, and so n how it
(09:57):
all built up was a little small.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Inkling s of difference of flavor, difference of exposure. Uh
different Hm, how else can I say it? It was
just new. It was a new wrinkle again it, you know,
just it was different.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
And so at that time I was ascending in many
different walks, w many different aspects of uh, of my life.
And so as what people would say when when a
when a man is beginning to ascend in power, you know,
more temptations will arise along with that comes with the territory.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
And so that was pretty much synonymous with that time.
And so there were plenty plenty, plenty plenty signs uh.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
To refute it, to rebuke it, to turn away, clearly
recognize it.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
The phrase I used did not count the costs. Uh,
if I do x YC x y Z, decision is
gonna lead to ABC result. Uh.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
So that literal calculation in my mind, you know a Uh,
I'm fascinating with numbers and the finance.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I did not use that calculation.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
And so what what captivated me was the the the thrill,
the secrecy of how much I was uh hiding from you, Uh,
how much I was, you know, burying and and keeping
uh away from you as as a as part of
day to day week the week, you know, month to
month interactions. Uh, the small checkups we would do with
(11:29):
each other. Uh, I y i hel i H I
hid it well of uh how much I was entertained outside.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Of my home.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
And the more the more the l I crossed the
line emotionally to where it was just simply an an interest.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
It was a like a mental fleeing. It was a mental.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
A challenge if you will, y you know, like like
a lion out in the wilderness. It was it was
the thrill of the the hunt. And so that's that
blinded me uh from from a lion, a male lion. Uh,
mynal's in the wilderness. A male lion, Uh trying to
run after this probably won't happen in in nature. But
(12:17):
a a male lion tryna run after a cheetah, Uh,
it's gonna always evade you. So what I was actually
seeking for to kind of satisfy a certain you know void, Uh,
A cheetah would always outrun a lion, and so I
was left behind and dry.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So there was many examples in nature.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
To where a a lion l does not get what
it was hunting. Uh, so it does not eat what
it what it attempts to hunt. And so that left
me even more uh deprived of of course damage.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
You know, to look me in your face then, and
you know I wanted you to obviously tell you from
my own self, uh, not.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Here from anyone else. Uh.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
And so to hear as my as my words was
leaving my mouth enter into your ear, and it was
beginning to sink in your heart the brevity and just
the gravity and the weight of what had occurred. That
that epitomized that the thrill of that chase was not
(13:21):
worth it.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
It was a It was a loss. It was a
loss from the beginning from the Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
But and we're actually it's not I'm not it's not
a joke. But at this point, and you know, we've
healed from it, we've done the work. But when you're
in that moment and I just think this is so interesting,
and I don't want to just you know, I want
to unpack this a little bit, because when you're talking
about like the thrill and the hunt, you know that
(13:48):
analedge the chase, Yeah, the quest. Men love men, love
the idea of a quest, yes, whether it be good
or bad. So for you and this particular situation, in
this particular predicament, it was a quest for sin obviously, ultimately,
like when you're in the moment when men maybe if
(14:10):
you can speak for men at large or just yourself
because you are men, so you have the right to
do that. But like when you're in the moment, like
you said, I guess, like what are you thinking? Like
you know this is wrong? So I'm very confused. I mean,
people know that stuff is wrong, but like, are you thinking,
like I'm not gonna get caught? Like, like what is
(14:32):
going through your mind?
Speaker 3 (14:34):
So the end of that, that is a part of
the mental faculties. So not gonna get caught. It can
be brushed away, never to be spoken. Abut again, there
is a larger part of the calculation of those decisions.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
It is totally void of logic. That's actually yes, yeah, unlogical.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah. Uh so that's a good point too, so s sin.
So you won't overcome sin until it is full grown.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
So in other words, hm, you playing with fire almost.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Uh, it's just a it's a part of the process.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
It is a part of the you know, the the predicament,
but you won't ever overcome it until there is a
essentially like a day of reckoning, until sin is full
grown into your life and it's it. It fully ravishes
and wrecks and rules and steals and you know, destroys.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Th Unfortunately, it.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Must go through that process in its entirety before like
an example, I can stand on this side of that perspective,
uh and have that be way in the past, have
that be beneath me, behind me, you know, m B
and be able to face it again and well before
you know anything repeating so s s sin to overcome
(16:06):
it truly, uh, you know, to uh repent from it,
turn away. Uh it it must be foregrown outside.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Of me, it's above me.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
So when I realized that I, you know, reflecting back
in all of it, I I so I I wouldn't
be able to I W. It's almost like a foregrown
conclusion that I needed to go and and keep pushing
the line, keep pushing the barrier because I've been drawn in.
But to k to keep pushing the line, keep pushing
(16:36):
the barrier of the what if? Uh, the thrill of
the chase, the excitement, the secrecy, all of those you
know f components you know of of the situation.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I W I would if I would not have been
able to return out of it.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
It was like quick saying. And so the further I
went into it, the deeper I got. And I can't
be fully rescued from you know a quicksand uh until
I am you know, fur further enough in it to
where I will have ah such a disdain and a distaste,
and I will be able to recognize my enemy. I
(17:15):
would be able to recognize the the the functions and
the w.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I'm trying to say, the uh, the tactics of my enemy.
That's what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Because if I put if you put one toe in
a quick s in, one foot in quicksand, that's not
enough damaging to you.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
That's not enough of a.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Pull of a draw for you to really familiarize yourself
with the dangers of Quicksand same with a with a kid,
a baby obviously we have a uh a baby uh
approaching tolleran stage here soon.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Her interests in touching a socket, her interest in touching
something hot, She's not really.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Gonna learn the lesson. We're that what I I do that.
That's funny.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Uh, she's not going to really fully get the lesson
enough to turn away from it to never do it again.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, until it has reached full grown.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, okay, that's good. So I actually want to like,
that's great that you're saying that, because one thing that
you're mentioning that I think it's worth, like, you know,
sharing with other people. That's particularly interesting with our situation
and our story that I want to highlight is when
you knew you did the wrong thing, what you shared
(18:33):
with me candidly is that? And you know, you can
kind of reshare this this story like to your own version,
but as far as I can recollect from when it happened,
is you you know, you realize the extent you know
of what you had done, or the ramifications rather of
what you had done. And you went outside and you screamed.
(18:59):
Is that something that happened? Do you remember that, like
you went outside, you were at work, and then you
went outside and then you screamed outside because you couldn't
believe what you just did. Do you remember telling me
that I know? Yes? Which is interesting? Okay, okay, okay,
So yeah, we're gonna talk about that some more. But
but yeah, so when you and then let me just
(19:20):
back up a little bit. So the other interesting dynamic
to what John is sharing with me that a lot
of people don't experience it, I will say I am
grateful for and I do think it played a part
in my healing process is that John admitted to me himself.
So John would have never told me this story, never
(19:41):
brought it up, never mentioned it. I would have never
known about it, which is unusual. So let's just start
right there, like that's unusual, that's not a thing. And
so he came to me, I think after a church service.
I remember that it was on a Sunday. It was honest,
Sunday after I'm dead. So okay, okay, relaxed. So so
(20:10):
I guess, okay, so when you is this cheating and
this is considered cheating.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Absolutely all right? Okay, yeah, definitely all right.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
So when you realize, oh my god, I've cheated on
my wife, I have to actually tell her about it.
The day has come, I've already done that. I've already
done the done, I've already done the thing. So take
me back to that moment, like you're you know, taking
back to that moment when you realize that you have
to tell me a twist. Okay, this is gonna be
(20:41):
like take me, put me back, put me in this story,
because I'm sitting here just like enjoying the service. But
like you're thinking, I got today's day, So tell me
take me back to the money when you realize today
today is the day.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
The interesting twist was when I could not hold it
in anymore and I knew that day was the day
that that Sunday, Uh, it was actually the most freeing
day that I had in a long while, cause I
knew I would be free from it.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
MM. That's that's powerful.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
So so actually, as I'm reliving it driving home, driving
back home after the service that day, I was actually
more excited to simply reveal it and get it out
of me than I was afraid of the the ramifications
I wanted. I was so thirsty for the freedom, the peace,
(21:39):
the the freedom of mine.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
I was so longing for that. And it was a
real and tangible uh experience that I was.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I was, I was feeling emotionally and mentally uh that
whatever the ramifications was. When I decided to tell her it,
it it paled in comparison. It wasn't even close, so
I would I had reached my reached his WIT's.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
End, and and and this, oh, this is this was
good too. In a moment.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
I was, Oh, this is so I was gonna be
so thrilled to be free from it that I did
that I did, Oh this is gonna be that I
didn't It didn't matter.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
But I'll say loosely, I didn't care.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
But it didn't. I didn't truly care how it would
have changed my life after that. I just know explain
So so if you so, if you wanted to walk away,
you did not want to amend it with me, You
did not want to work through it, okay, which means life,
(22:46):
you know.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Reard so you were more happy to get to to
get it off.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Of you and experience the trueness of peace and you know,
living a righteous life. You know, in that moment, because
I I held it in, it wasn't long, maybe like
a month or so, month and a half. And so
for those handful of weeks, you know, month, month and
a half or whatever, very excruciating to hold it in,
(23:11):
you know, day to day, to look you in the eye,
to do life with you day to day, sleep food,
knowing knowing that yeah inside, yeah, so that's what burned
me up even more. It was like, yeah, okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I hate to go back. I don't hate to go back.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I'm a woman, but.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
And my time is gonna come. So I'm not innocent, yes,
but but I hate to go back. I don't. I
don't hate to go back. I want to go back
because you just had something interesting and I want to
look look at that. So you knowing, like you just said,
day to day like we're just doing regular life. I'm
over here playing, we're playing house like I'm living life
with you.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
I got a dirty dark seeking.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Yes, Like how are you doing that?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Like?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
How are you just continuing to live life.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
In your compartmentalizing? What do you mean compartmentalizing? Putting? Putting
that is gonna have a dead reckoning. It's on it.
It's uninvadable.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
So I'm going to pick that up and place it
in his box, silly with a key, and then I'll
come back and talk.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
I'll come back and deal with that.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Wow, I don't know if that's an Is that a
man thing?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
We can't compartmentalize?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Probably, but do you guys know you're compartmentalizing. Do you know, like, Okay,
I know I did this terrible thing. I'm going to,
like you said, I'm literally going to take this thing
and set it aside and just act like I'm happy
that my wife just made this incredible chicken alfredo tonight
on Tuesday, like and not talk about the fact that
I just cheated on her time. Do you consciously know
(24:42):
I'm com com or it's like a subconscious.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
I believe men can do that at a higher degree
than women. When there are stressors, when there's challenges, when
there's when there's aspects that push us to the most
uncomfortable parts of us, we know how to absorb that
(25:06):
and and deflect it and then continue to press on.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
So so like, would there be a side all right, okay,
so let me just backtrack a little bit. So would
there be a moment where you felt like I should
tell her now or I'm just gonna say it, or
was it like.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
That you didn't feel right? It didn't feel right?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
So how did you know that that was the moment.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
When I the moment I knew it is.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I knew that when I did say it, and it
literally left my mouth into your ear you sunk it
down to your heart as I was replaying that, especially
that morning. But when I was replaying it in my mind,
I knew that I would experience more joy, peace and serenity.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Why are you saying joy?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Because I would be free from the poison. It's like
you had.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
It's like you you somebody's diagnosed with cancer and you
go through all of the chemo.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Now you free free.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
But you know, the the cancelor has been eradicated throughout
the thing, so that that moment of jubilee of knowing
this thing is now passed, this thing is now out
of me, is gone. I'm gonna have to worry about
it and have to think about it and have to
plan and be careful with my words or my facial
expression or the energy vibes that I'm manipulating, you know,
(26:20):
to give off if I no longer have to do that.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That was freely enough.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
It was free enough to to accept whatever well would
have come up it mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Wow, that's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
And so so so you you remember that day? What
was my demeanor? So all right, so interestingly enough. Yeah,
so as as this is coming out.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I'm gonna of the story. So I remember the day
very vividly because it's one of those days where you're like,
at this point, me and John, you know, we've been
married like a handful of years at this point, and
so I was so shocked. I was so shocked because
you have such a great track record because.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Before you you do overview, but to kind of put
a nail on my end and then you know, you
can speak from your point of view.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
But my demeanor, your demeanor was, like I said, okay,
so your demeanor was very calm. Your demeanor was very
what's the world? Okay? So I see how you're seeing,
like you're using the words that.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
It's very free.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
It brought you peace. I do see that. So like
I remember that on a second, Hold on a second,
because I'm about to tell my side of the story.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Oh my god, Cap shout out to cap Radande.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Okay, So no, your demeanor was very uh okay, So
let's just be similarities. I totally see those similarities.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Was that a shock or surprise? What? Well, it was
a little bit about all right.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I will say this. You did seem a little nervous,
but you seemed secure in your nervousness because the phrase
that you kept saying before you, like when you were getting.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Ready to tell me and can we sit down?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, you did say that. But the phrase that you
kept repeating out of nervousness was I'm hiding behind God.
I'm hiding behind God. So it was like a it
was like a double and it was like a duality
or like what do they call it? Oh my god,
it was like a juxtaposition. Yeah, it was a druxtposition.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Because it was going to be fine.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, because you seemed nervous about what you were telling me,
but you also seemed confident that you could tell me
because you were hiding behind God. Yeah, you kept saying yeah,
Like when you were telling me, I'm like, what is
he about to say? What is about to say? He's like,
I'm hiding behind God. I'm hiding behind God. I just
(28:59):
want to talk to you about something, but I'm hiding
behind I can't. But I was like, okay, you hid
him by God.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Like like why do you keep saying?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
But it was like a nervousness. So in the flesh least,
in the flesh space, you were very nervous obviously, like
any any human. It's flesh. Any human would be nervous
about telling somebody that they love that, hey, I've done
something terrible to you, and this makes me sad, obviously.
But then in the same sense, you seemed calm. Yeah,
(29:35):
you seem calm and like at peace because you were
hiding behind God. So he was your refuge, he was
your safe space. He was your okay, Like, whatever happens happened.
So when you're telling me this, I'm like, oh my gosh,
I'm sitting there and you're like, I guess we're on
the couch and let me set the scene for y'all
(29:57):
in case you're listening. So we're on the couch. Is
a Sunday, just go home from church. I don't know
what we're doing whatever. John says, Hey, I need to
talk to about something. Can you come sit on the couch.
I'm like, okay, blah blah blah. So we're sitting on
the couch and John keeps saying that phrase. He keeps saying,
I'm hiding by I'm hiding by God, I'm hiding by
and God and blah blah blah blah. He's saying all
(30:17):
this stuff, and he's like, so, do you want me
tell you what you actually did, or just leave it,
leave it for the room for the imagination.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
I don't remember exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Do you want me to say it because we said
it's not sex. Yeah, but so do you want me
to say, like specifically what he was or just leave it?
We'll just leave it, all right. So he tells me
what he does right with another woman, and I am floored. No,
like when I say like, when I say floored, I
(30:49):
mean the air. Yes, like the air has totally been
I can't believe that as it's real life. So he
admits to me what he has done, which I had
absolutely no idea, would have never known, would have never thought,
which I will do to this day. I will commend
you for that because that's very rare, that's very unusual
(31:10):
for a man.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Oh I thought you say commandment for.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Not no no, no, no no. I don't command you for
doing that.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Where we going with this?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
No, I don't command you for doing that, But I
do commend you for being able to come to me
as a man to tell me, hey, this is what
I did. That is unusual and rare, and I respect
you for that, and I think that helped during the
healing process. But I will say He told me this, y'all,
and I was shocked, like I couldn't believe it. And
I was like, is this real life right now? And
(31:40):
I remember, you don't remember it, but you told me
like after you had done the incident, you went outside
that you had to return back to work. You went
outside and you screamed and you like started like like
screaming at the sky. You couldn't believe it. You were
so disgusted with yourself. You don't remember that not, so wait,
(32:02):
was it true?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
No, you did tell me.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Yeah, you did tell me this because I as parallels
to our stories. That's what I'm bringing only because there's parallels.
So you told me about like you're doing this. You
went back to work and you just couldn't you couldn't
handle that, Like I.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Literally just did this, okay.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
And you went to work and you said you went outside.
Nobody was there. It was just you on the shift actually,
and you went outside and you screamed, and I said,
like that's interesting. He's like, yeah, I literally, so I've
never done this before. I went outside and that screen.
I was like, oh okay. And so anyways, when he
saw me this, I literally felt like I got hit
like I got t boned by like a semi truck.
(32:48):
I just was so shocked. I just was like, is
this real life? We've had such a great track worker,
we're role models, we're Christians, people look up to us,
We've had such like you know, we're we're doing good.
And so I was like distraught, total total, total distraught,
total devastation, total shock. Like I was numb and I
(33:13):
don't remember. Do you remember like an initial reaction like
I didn't want you to touch me. I was just
like please touching me, don't talk to me.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Like that stuck out to me the most. I think
it was your your outbursts.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
It's like you broke from the inside as the words
were becoming more real. It's like physically yeah, and then
then you're like wait, I think it well, yeah, I
think it was it was an outburst.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Because it's just total blindside.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
It's like you, yeah, I can I can remember you
wailing and just like again just breaking from the outside
like an erupted almost like a volcano, like they erupted
with yeah, with realization, Oh.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, that's what's that bar? So yeah, you erupted it
like a fuck.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Alright, alright, let's just say it. Let's just say it,
let's just talk about it. I think it's important. I
don't know why we did that that night.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Oh yeah yeah, definitely added yeah, yeah, because it was
extremely important.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah, so for whatever reason, like within hours.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Let's not talk about it.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Definitely talk about it.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
So before we say that within hours, cause of course
it was right off the afternoon, you know, right after church,
So within hours. I immediately since it was first of
all the right time and the right decision to do
it that day. But I had, and you speak to
this because it's my perspective, but I had within a
(34:53):
few hours, immediately with with strong conviction and confidence, that
she had forgiven me. That same day that box was
checked for me. So now it was my responsibilit because
I broke the trust. I blew up the bridge of
trust in that uh, in our relationship. Uh, my responsibility
from that point until until she told me, alright, we
(35:15):
we're done. Uh, you know, without saying it.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Is that the better? Oh? Sorry?
Speaker 3 (35:23):
So my job was to repair what I had broken,
w you know, to to make amends.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
But she immediately began to show that she had forgiven me,
and that sealed the deal for me that first off,
cause I always believe that uh a repeated decision r
a ber a repeated mistake is a decision on un't
say again. So once she once I realized that within
(35:51):
a few hours her she had forgiven me without saying
it now, cause this is just devastating news. I I
began to be confident that my wife had uh forgiven
me for breaking her trust and you know, committed infidelity.
And I was confident in that I would be able
(36:12):
to uh uh t to rebuild the bridge of trust
that I broke wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, because I knew that when
so a repeated mistake is a decision, and so I
knew that that was not my mo that was not
a part of me, that was not something I was
(36:33):
gonna continue to do because I knew that I did
not count the cost of full assessment of you know,
uh going down to this road, going down that road
in that journey th that l connected me made me
more in love with her even more.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
And so what that led into.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I wouldn't say that. Okay, so that is good, That
is profound that you're saying that because a lot of
people obviously I'm regular, I'm human, I'm pleashed. Did I
have a lot of follow up questions? Was I asking
a lot of things that were low frequency questions?
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Like one percent? Did I look at his phone? Did
look at the messages? Did I try to figure out? What?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
What?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
What? How?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
What? Who? What? When?
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Where?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
How? Yes?
Speaker 1 (37:19):
However? Come, I will say to your what you're talking about?
What you're speaking to? And I get this question a
lot because a lot of women are like, how how
how how were you able to forgive him that fast?
And this is what I say, And it's powerful. I
say I was able to forgive my husband because I'm
(37:42):
a Christian before I'm a wife. I hope, well guess
next for that, okay, And I'm saying that because it's
important who I am as a believer. I was able
to see my husband through the lens as a fellow
believer who had fallen, who has sin first first, and
(38:02):
so I was able to see you as a fella
believer first and then see you as my husband's second,
which was very painful. But I was able to see
you as like dang, John, Yeah, no for real, Like
it was like, yeah, dang, a fellow believer, Like I
(38:25):
get it, man, like it and it's easier said than done,
but I want to I want to impart that to
you guys, because I think I think that's so powerful
of like being able to just you know, have a
distinguishing factor between those two things. And I think that's
what saved our marriage really is that, you know, you know,
(38:46):
God had given me the wisdom to be able to
have that idea.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
So she saw me as God saw me, and so
she was in the moment, in the rawness of that
moment within like I said, within a few hours, she
was able to tap into a a different mindset, different frequents.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
She was able to go within.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
And s literally see me as God sees me, and
a all of us we've we've had short comings and
we've y you know, fall into s s uh sanitation
you know, any other uh shark coming uh because God
sees it also as a little baby attempting to walk. Uh,
(39:26):
You're gonna fall down, but you're gonna get back up.
And so when he so, when he, when God ex
extends his grace to us, Uh, it is not something
that we uh can earn. It's not something that you
can work, work, work, do do do check this box
off and then grace is extended.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
It is a free gift. And so sh.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Sh the the Q, the quickness, the the the speed
that she was able to extend grace. Grace is something
that you uh d uh, you cannot deserve did what
I did. Did not deserve this s obediency, uh, the
expediency of her forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
But she extended it to me.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
And so I, well, I guess you just said when
she extended it and I was able to discern that
without her using the words I, I was m spiritually
able to discern that she had forgiven me. I was
more excited to rebuild now this bridge that I that.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I that I blew up.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
I was ecstatic, I was thrilled. I was motivated, and
I was that w that was my heart's MI, that
was my mission for my life at that point. I
needed to rebuild something that the reconciliation.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yes, to reconcile things.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Uh, and that that was I wore that, uh you
know on my shoulder. U put the weight of that
on me, and I I just got I put my
head down, got the work on reconciling things. And you
know it, it definitely worked out too.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
It's good. Yeah, uh so bad? Yeah, h so good
to where? Uh? I guess you you can s I wanna.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
I'm not gonna say it. You have to you talking
about the yes, all right.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
Because this is this is like I don't I think
this is part.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Of the healing process. And I don't know if you guys,
you know, leave it in the comments, if you've dealt
with this too, if you've gone through pain and you
use this. I don't know why this happened, but it
did happen. So this is the same night John, you know,
revealed this information to me. I was able to send grace,
able to see him as a Christian before I as
a wife. You know, forgive him for that, even though
(41:27):
let's just be clear when I say forgiveness, and this
is a This is great because I didn't necessarily not
think about it anymore that he did this, But the
emotion that was attached to me learning about it when
he did it was gone. So you remove the Yeah,
(41:50):
you removed the sting. So the way that you'll know
that you've forgiven somebody is that you won't feel the
exact same emotion that you felt when you learned about it.
So that's how you know you have forgiven. It doesn't
mean that you won't ever think about it, that it
won't ever come to you know, to your mind and
it won't ever come up something triggers or nothing like that.
(42:11):
It doesn't mean that. But true forgiveness. A sign that
you'll know that you have forgiven somebody is that you
won't feel the exact excite, the exact same emotion, emotional
steam and pain. So it came with the onset of
you learning about this thing.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
So you have a scar you got as a kid hurt,
a painful, painful hurt. And so now you're grown up
and you still see the scar on your leg or.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Knee or whatever. Yeah, but it doesn't hurt, but it
doesn't hurt anymore. That's how you know. That's that's true,
true forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
True forgiveness. But okay, so I'm saying, So that happened,
and then later that night that was like top ten,
all right, So later that night we actually had sex
on the same night that I learned that you had
broken the confines of our marriage. Yes, why do you
(43:08):
think that happened? I will say for me, I think
it was an emotional I needed a release, Okay, I
needed a release, but I was. But it was a
very I will say it was a very detached sexual experience. Nonetheless,
are about detach detached in the sense that, like I am,
(43:33):
we are having we are having sex with one another
because I need like an actual physical release of all
of the you know, you see what I'm saying, like.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
All of this because I can't remember why is this? Yeah,
I can remember that I was. I was thinking to myself,
like why is this? Like why is it having so soon?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
I was so confused that why we were having sex? Agree,
it was a very situation. But at the same time,
I needed that I needed a physical release. I was,
and I don't recommend this like this, this is not like.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah, I remember, like I had a moment. Why is
why is this?
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Okay, you don't need to do that. You don't need
to do the movement, but move this that you just
did that you don't All right, we need a part two.
All right, we need a part two. We gotta wrap
it up. So let me say this. So I learned
about this information, so we had the physical release, but
you got to unpackt that some more in the next episode.
(44:40):
But at the same time, I remember vividly, which I
want to I want to highlight this before we go.
Is I went, okay, after all this happened, you're revealing
this to me. I am like blindsided. I feel crushed.
I'm crumbled. All the things, all the fields. I where
we lived at at the time, there was a there
(45:00):
was an area where I could go where I was
like in the woods basically like there was like a
wood a wooden, like a woodsy like area. And I
remember driving to the woods because I didn't know what
else to do. I'm like, this is crazy, this is
this can't be real life, Like we've done so good,
We've done I think that was the biggest blow. I
(45:22):
think that was the biggest blow, was like are you crazy?
Like are you crazy? Like we've done so good? Is
this real? Is this a real story? This is a
joke and it wasn't. And so I remember going to
the woods and I was just like, God, I don't know,
(45:44):
I don't know. And I remember I've never willed before
you like you use that word well, like I remember
screaming into the pillow. But when I went to the woods,
I remember screaming into the pillow with you, like when
you were telling me that. I was like, oh my god,
this a can this can't be, Like, I gotta scream.
I have to do something. I cannot keep this energy
inside my body. Yeah, and so hints the screaming and
(46:05):
the pillow hints to having the sex with you. And
then I remember driving to the woods and I'm like,
I have to scream. I have to scream, like I
don't know what to do with this energy. So I
went to the woods. Of course, I called my mom
because she's like my best friend. I told my mom
this is what happened to me. I'm sick. I'm sick
(46:25):
right now, and she gave me some advice. Blah blah
blah blah. I guess the phoe my mom. I'm in
the middle of the woods, I'm in my car, and
I just scream at the top of my lungs, like
scream like that where I'm like whaling, Like you use
the word whaling or I don't know if people know
(46:46):
what that means, Like to whale means to be hysterical
to the point where you're like crying so hard, hey,
like you're shaking, you're shivering, Like it's a it's an experience,
it's an experimental experiential Is that a word? It's an experience?
(47:07):
Is that a word for? I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Look stupid at the end.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Okay, it's an experiential cry. Basically, it's an outpouring of
sadness that you have to physically release. So I did that.
There's parts, there's parts of you that you don't even
know we're in there that are just like like it's intense.
So anyways, I will in the woods. Oh that's a book.
(47:32):
I Will in the woods. But anyways, mm hmm, I
will in the winds. That's good.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
But anyway, so I like, I'm I'm screaming, I'm crying.
Nobody can hear me except for myself. I hear an echo,
I hear me, I hear God in anyways, and that's that.
In that moment, I found like my own peace. And
I feel like you gotta go crazy, like, don't try
to act regular when traumatic things happen to you, like
like take them in, fill them, you know, experience them,
(48:04):
let them run through you, don't go yeah, let them
take their course. Because I let the emotions take its
course specifically, and I think that helps me a lot.
Like between you telling me about it, me choosing to
extend grace, and then me actually going through the cathartic
process of wailing in the woods. Everybody doesn't have access
(48:27):
to the woods, which I get that, but like find
somewhere where you can scream if it's your bathroom or
like a local park, whatever, but like do something because
it helped me and it was very profound in my
healing process. So yeah, we gotta wrap We gotta wrap
up this episode.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Ok, so this was me the next.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah, so I'll go next in mind is.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
So I would say, so we go through this at
the having I can kind of say like a spotless
marriage earlier.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
And so as she will devote you know here sharply.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
But I there's parts of me that feel like I
felt more painted devastation, disappointment because I had already crossed
that bar and revealed so much, was so open, so transparent.
It it like it it caused such a division in
(49:31):
our marriage at that time. Of course I was the.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Example like please learn from learn from me. This is
not good.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Yeah, that's essentially what it was, because I would because
part of it how I got I experienced my freedom
so quickly was I was able to diet detach like
who I am, Like a mistake doesn't define you. It's
different if you keep repeating, Now, that's different. But you know,
a mistake, that's a that's the sitting there.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
So I realized that the mistake didn't define me. So
I was able to separate. So I was able to
think greater than how I felt. And so when you
do that, you literally put yourself in another perspective. It's
almost like having a third person view looking down at
us right now on this couch. And so you can
literally have you can see, you have access to this
(50:23):
corner of the room, that corner over there behind you.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
When you have an elevated perspective.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
And that's what you do when you when you tap
into God, how your consciousness, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
And so.
Speaker 3 (50:36):
To have that and to be all of this reconciliation,
I was constantly revealing it, telling these stories and you know,
giving her information, answering all the questions.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
But this is the point.
Speaker 3 (50:49):
She kept asking those questions, and I said, I was
literally excited.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
I was. I was.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
I showed up to work every day, to work every
day to reconcile things I had broken, and so to
go through this entire ordeal and then that she's gonna reveal.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
I would I felt almost as almost as betrayed as.
Speaker 6 (51:10):
You and blindsided and blindsided because we literally, I literally
it was intentional about rebuilding this thing back and then
it was broken again.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
M hmm.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Part two produces up again. Part two Part two, Yeah,
stay tuned. We're gonna talk about a lot, like I
have some more questions for you that I definitely want
to unpack and they can help people. But yeah, this
was a great introduction, was it. It was good. It
was refreshing to hear, like, oh, I guess refreshing is
(51:48):
the word. Yeah, yeah, Okay, I don't know what time
it is, but where do we need to go? You
feel like it's time? Okay, all right, we have next episode?
Yeah yeah, yeah, episode episode whatever. But part two of
this conversation, we're gonna talk about tastisement, we're gonna talk
about shame. We're gonna talk about a lot of things actually,
(52:13):
So yeah, thank you for having this conversation with me.
It's out there in the in the open, like the
world knows, and here we are seventeen years later.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
You can do it. We can do it. You can
do it. Keep stacking him. Cam joined from the Saints.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Okay, all right, this is uh another episode that first
comes love than speak
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