Kerry McCoy: World silver medalist, two-time Olympian, former college head coach - Ep. 32

Shane Sparks' discussion with World silver medalist, three-time NCAA All-American, two-time NCAA champion and two-time Olympian Kerry McCoy on Episode 32 of the Go Earn It Podcast.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Go Earn It Podcast, where we bring
you stories each week of people who have battled through adversity,
overcame the obstacles, and earned their dream. You were born
for greatness and our mission is to bring you the
stories that will inspire you to dream big and go
earn it.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
And welcome to the Go Earn It Podcast. I'm your
host Shane Sparks. Another hammer of a guest today, Kerrie McCoy.
Three time Big Ten Champion, three time All American, two
time National champion, Hodge Trophy winner, World silver medalist, two
time Olympian, and now the executive director and the head

(00:49):
coach of the Lehigh Valley Wrestling Club the RTC. Kerrie,
this is gonna be awesome. How are you?

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Thank you?

Speaker 4 (00:57):
Thanks for having me, Sean, looking forward to chatting with you.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
I want to start with the beginning. You're from New York.
How did you get involved in this great sport? And
peeling the onion back a little bit? Carrie? Why did
it stick to Carrie McCoy.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
Yeah, that's you know, and I've actually it's kind of funny.

Speaker 4 (01:15):
I've heard a lot of people tell their origin story
for lack of at a term in the last few years,
and and mine's very similar.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
I started wrestling in seventh grade. And the first year
that in our you know.

Speaker 4 (01:28):
In our school district that you could participate inter scholastic
sports was seventh grade.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
The only sports that were available were wrestling in track.

Speaker 4 (01:37):
So I was I grew up, I thought it was
gonna be a basketball player, right, I had. I had
a hoop in my front yard. We'd play every day
before school, we play after school, you know, play in
the park on the weekend. It was just you know,
and I wasn't very good, but I loved the game,
so we played.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
All the time. So I had always anticipated.

Speaker 4 (01:54):
Like growing up, I was going to go play basketball,
but in seventh grade, there wasn't a team. Their first
year you can play basketball was in eighth grade. So
I had a buddy, a kid that I'd grown up
with through you know, elementary school. His name is Mike Holmes,
and he said, once you come out for wrestling. And
again I've heard the story from multiple people. The only
thing I knew about wrestling was Hulk Hogan and Andrea

(02:14):
the Giant, and so that's what I thought it was.
So I'm like, okay, I like it. I you know,
I watch it every weekend, so I'm down with it.
So I tell, you know, the week before our first practice,
you know, I'm kind of racking my brain on what's
my finishing move going to be?

Speaker 3 (02:29):
And you know, am I gonna wear a mask or
not mask? You know, I'm gonna wear.

Speaker 4 (02:33):
The long tights or the short tights, you know, and
all that stuff. And so obviously I was. I was
way off. And I show up to practice, and it's
the other twist with I show up to practice my
first day and you know, you see the mats on
the on the on the and I'm like, okay, well,
you know, maybe gymnastics practice is over and they didn't
roll up the match yet, and you know we can

(02:53):
come in. They're gonna set up the ring and you
know we'll get started. So I mean, this is going
through my head as a seventh grader. And then, you know,
top it off, coach walks in and he's like, all right,
we're about to get started to start running and I'm like, wait, no, no,
no track is in the spring. I'm here for wrestling,
like I want to turn buckles and stuff. And so
I had no idea literally no one in my family

(03:15):
had wrestled. I had a couple of friends, like I said,
they did it, but I really had no clue. So
we were running around our middle school to warm up.
And and this is the really funny thing about I
don't know what it was. I don't know, like if
it was because we were running through school. You never
get to run in school, but no idea. But I
just said, I don't know about anything about this, but
I fell in love with it. I'm like, I'm going

(03:36):
to do this for a long time. And I still
just running around that first day, and something just grabbed
me on that day. And and when I tell the story,
a lot of people think, hey, you must have been
you know good right away, you must have jumped, And
I said I was.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
I was terrible. I tell people I was.

Speaker 4 (03:49):
I was the worst person to start wrestling that ever
started wrestling in the history of wrestling.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
I was so bad. I joke with that.

Speaker 4 (03:56):
I said, I was our team confidence booster. If somebody
was having a bad day, my coach say, well, go
wrestle with McCoy. You'll feel better about yourself. So it
was not, you know, it wasn't one of these like
I'm in an instant, you know, click right away, and
I was, I just I fell in love with it.

Speaker 3 (04:10):
But it was I was I was dominated, you know.

Speaker 4 (04:13):
And that first year I didn't have one competitor and
so again we're on junior high, junior high wrestling. That
first year, I didn't get one competitive match, Like, I
didn't get a chance to compete at all. You know,
it's I mean's middle school junior high, Like everybody gets
to participate, and so I but I came to practice
every day and I had one simple goal. It was
just get better, right And I was so bad that

(04:34):
I really had no choice. But it was just I
didn't set out to be a state champ. I didn't
set out to be the start. I didn't set out
to I was like, hey, I love this and I
want to be the best that I can be at it.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
And that's kind of how it all started.

Speaker 4 (04:43):
And then, you know, slowly but surely, over the years,
I got a little bit better and made my way.
But yeah, that that first year was you know, God
had a plan for me, and you know it started
with with that first day and you know, he hey,
you're going to do this for a long time.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
And you know, he knew.

Speaker 4 (04:58):
I guess I was going to have success in it,
but I just I did it because I fell in
love with it.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
You remember a time, Carrie, when you realized I'm pretty
good at this.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
You know it was I I always felt like I
was progressively getting better.

Speaker 4 (05:15):
So my first year, like I said, I didn't have
any competitive match. During the regular season, I wrestled out again.
I did year round. I wrestled folks style during the
during the winner. I wrestled freestyle and grecor in the
spring and summer, you know, and came around.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
It's eighth grade.

Speaker 4 (05:30):
I I wrestled ran track in seventh grade. Eighth grade,
I wrestled ran track and played played football, wrestled rand track,
ninth grade played football, wrestled, and then tenth grade was
just all wrestling. So you know, I had the year round.
So that first year, I wrestled in our freestyle county tournament,
which is a state qualifier, and I had one guy
in my weight class. I you know, I won, you
know whatever. It was a close match, like a ruling

(05:52):
nail bier break, you know. Then I went to the
state tournament in both styles and I was fourth in
greco and I was third and free style.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
You know, we had four guys in greco, three guys
in freestyle or maybe.

Speaker 4 (06:04):
A switch, right, But I lost all my matches at
the state tournament, but but I placed. And then the
next year at eighth grade, I I wrestled. I think
I lost one match in the Junior high team. In
the ninth grade, I was undefeated, but I was still
wrestling Junior High as a freshman and in freestyle eighth grade,
you know, wrestled freestyle and you know, won the state tournament. Freestyle,

(06:28):
went to the Northeast Regionals, and the ninth grade I
actually won the state tournament freestyle. I got a chance
to go out to the Cadet Nationals. In freestyle, I
went to the Junior Nationals and Greco. So I just
kind of continued to get better. But every level that
I went to, I was I was still kind of
at the bottom, right, So I get better and then
I go to next level, and then you know, get
beat and I get better and rise up. And I

(06:50):
would say probably my sophomore year in high school, you know,
that was the first year of wrestled varsity in New
York EGO leagues the States. So in the league tournament,
that's the first call. I lost first round in the
league tournament, so I didn't even get to the qualified
to call it for State. And and that was that
was that was one of the times that I really

(07:12):
and I was never a good loser, you know, I
hated losing. But our high school hosted the county tournament
and it was a big deal, you know, being county champs.
And I remember sitting in the bleachers of the County
Tournament at my high school watching, you know, all these
guys compete, and I said, you know, I don't ever
want to feel this way again. And and that's happened

(07:34):
a couple times in my career, but that right there.
So that summer, you know, had a great summer. I
went to the Cadet Nationals again. I end up finishing
second at the Cadet Nationals. And then the guy that
beat me at the Cadet Nationals name is Pat Schuster.
He didn't want to go to the World Championships, so
I got the chance to go to the Cadet World Championships.

(07:55):
I ended up going there silver medal, and so I
think that right there was really you know, I had
the performance, you know, competing at high levels, but going
to that first international tournament as a sophomore, and then
when I came back, I just had a you know,
a higher level of confidence because I just went competed
at the world level. And then my junior year I
made it to the state finals. I lost in the

(08:15):
state finals, and then my senior year I was a
state CHAMPI So I'd say that first tick was that
summer of my sophomore year where you know, I went
and even at the at the Cadet Nationals, I mean
I had I had good matches, even though it took
a second, but I had some good wins and beat
a couple of guys.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
But I just really felt like I was starting to
understand this game.

Speaker 4 (08:34):
And then to go to the World Championships to make
the finals, I think that was one thing that was
like okay, like I'm starting starting to figure this thing
out a little bit.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
I think I think I can do alright with it.

Speaker 4 (08:44):
So I would say that was probably the My sophomore
year was the year when I started to click and say, Okay,
this isn't just about you know.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
Going in there and and enjoying it and loving it.

Speaker 4 (08:53):
It's like, Okay, I can actually do something, you know,
more than just show up and work card.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
We're five minutes into this thing, Carrie, and I want
to run for a wall right now. I just love
this stuff. I want to ask you this, who's the
guy that beat you your junior year of high school
in the state finals?

Speaker 4 (09:12):
Well, this is this is actually it's it comes up often.
So his name is John Diegle. So if you know
anything about wrestling in New York, he runs the Empire
Wrestling Academy. It used to be the Iowa Style Club.
A lot of hammers have come out of that Kd's club.
So KD used to work with John, and KD branched
off through his own sub. But but that's why I

(09:32):
lost to my junior year in the state finals with
John Deagle. And yeah, it's it's that could be a
trivia pursuit question because you know, we we get to
we get to bring that up every once in a while.
And you know, through the years, he's he's produced some
great some great guys, some great actually used to for
me to who wrestled for me at Maryland used to
go to his club. So we'd we'd cross over a

(09:54):
good bit through the year. So yeah, but that's why
I lost to my junior year.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
If I was him, that racket would be in the
living room and I'd probably wear a shirt that said
I beat Kerrie mccartt. I mean that. I love that
kind of stuff. So you win it as a senior,
do you remember the feeling, you know, let's that match
as a senior in high school. What do you remember
from that match and ultimately being a state champion because

(10:18):
obviously that was a big deal at that time in
your career.

Speaker 4 (10:21):
Yeah, yeah, it's really it's really interesting because you know,
you just you do it, you enjoy it, you work hard,
you know, and those things. And that's again, it wasn't
like my goals to be a state champ. I want
to go out perform, do my best. So my junior year,
so my high school hadn't had a state champ We
had a couple guys who were closed. My high school
hadn't had a state champ. So my junior year, myself

(10:43):
and Nikki Hall, who was my workoup partner.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
He ended up wrestling at old to me, he was
an All American.

Speaker 4 (10:48):
We were in the state finals and he you know,
I was one seventy seven and he was two fifteen.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
So I went first.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
So I was on the doorstep of being our high
school's first state champ. And then I lost and then
Nikki won, so he was our first state champ. And
then my senior year, we had three from our high
school in the state finals. And John Langy, who wrestled
with me at Penn State. He ended up being a
three time New York state champ. Dwayne Thompson, he was
you know, we grew up down the street from each other,

(11:16):
wins church together. He was a state champ, so I
and then I was me. So I went from on
the cusp of being our school's first state champ to
being our fourth.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
So at that point, when you.

Speaker 4 (11:27):
Know those three guys, you know, Nick one a year
four and those two guys went ahead of me, it
was like, Okay, now I'm going to be another state champ.
But it got to the point for US, okay, three
state champs in one year. That hadn't happened very often
in New York. I think Methham High School had done it,
you know a few years before. So to go and
be a you know, having three state champs for our coach,
Mike Pocosey was an incredible thing. So I just remember,

(11:50):
you know, being in there and I had wrestled a
bunch of the guys that were, you know, top ranked
throughout the year and just going out there and there
was in in our you know, in that group with
a bunch of guys that year section eleven. I mean
I think out of the fourteen weight class, I think
we had eleven, eleven and twelve champs from our section.
Like it was an incredible year. So just to be
on that team was really exciting. And you know, the

(12:12):
outstanding wrestler is always something that's out there. And my
buddy Jason Kraft, who was a big part of me
getting recruited to Penn.

Speaker 3 (12:19):
State, where rivals in high school but great friends.

Speaker 4 (12:23):
He went out and he actually he wrestled Mitch Clark
in the in the state finals and they had a
good match there. So so he was, you know, the
two of us, we were top ranked all year and
had really good years. So it was kind of like
that outstanding wrestler was going to be on on the line,
and I think I ended up winning five to two
in the state finals. Jason got the outstanding Wrestler. So
I remember just that piece of it. It's like, okay,

(12:45):
I get that state title. I got to hug my teammates.
They both won titles. So we had three state champs
and the idea of you know, who was going to
win the outstanding wrestler with all of us we had
three state champs. John was a sophomore, Dwayne and I
were senior, as Jason was the senior.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
We had a couple other guys did really well.

Speaker 4 (13:00):
So it was just kind of like celebrating a lot
of stuff in wrestling that year that I remember most.
That was pretty cool to be a part of why
Penn State. So that's another great story. So you know,
ultimately it came down to I mean, that was the
best place where I felt like I can reach my goals
academically and athletically. But I was telling some of this

(13:22):
story the other day, so in the process, Penn State
was so I narrowed my list down to nine schools.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
And you know, it ended up being eight.

Speaker 4 (13:34):
So I had, you know, academic schools, so you know,
so I was looking at Ivy these schools academic schools.
So I was looking at Harvard, Brown, UPenn, and Lehigh
were my academic schools, and then you know, my academic
athletic schools, Lehigh, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Penn State where the four.
So that's you know, I can go to the academic route,

(13:55):
I can go to the wrestling route. And through the process,
it just it became more evident that I wanted to
be in a place where, you know, I could have
a good athletic experience as well as the academic experience.
And then, you know, as I started rolling through mores, like,
you know, my goals to really make the Olympic team,
so athletic and academic combination, but then also you know,
winning NCAA champions but also an opportunity to go international

(14:18):
and have success there.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
So I kind of.

Speaker 4 (14:20):
Narrowed my I visited Lee High and Brown in the fall,
and I visited Michigan and Penn State in the spring.
And when I went to Lee High and Brown, great visits, great,
you know, great programs, they were just a little bit
too small for me.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
Now, I mean Lehigh in the draw of Lehigh.

Speaker 4 (14:37):
You know, ironically enough I made my way back, but
Lee High, Matt Rupel had just won a national championship
in nineteen ninety, so he was a returning national champ
and I was slated to be a one ninety pounder
on seventy seven one night, so that was gonna be
my workout partner. Tom Hutchinson was an All American. He
was the head coach of the Big Guy, and then
Sergey Bella Glausov was on staff. So that was the
pull at Lehigh with the other.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
Two schools that decided to visit.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
Michigan incredible athletic program all around. They I think in
eighty nine they won the NCAA Champa, they won a
national championship basketball, you know, football, they were right there.
So just a great, a great program. And then and
then Wisconsin was actually the other school that I was
going to visit, but what it came down to financially,

(15:25):
I mean, we weren't in a great situation for our family,
so you know, Penn State was offering a better financial
package than Wisconsin. So it's just one of those things
where I had to make a decision, you know, So
I decided to visit Penn State instead of Wisconsin. And
then and then my fifth visit was Cornell, but I
ended up canceling my visit to Cornell after my visit
to Penn State.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
So I went.

Speaker 4 (15:47):
I visited Leehin Brown in the fall, and I visited
Michigan and Penn State the same weekend. So I went
to Michigan Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and then I flew from
Anna Arbor to State College and Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, I
was in State College. Now my Michigan visit, incredible visit,
great time again the hare Kirk Trust. There, here's a

(16:08):
world silver medalist, NCAA champion, Dale Barrow was a head coach.
Joey Gilbert was in the nca finals the year before.
Like they had a lot, you know, and the Rawls
brothers were there, just a lot of great stuff from them.
And I had a great visit. I was there the
weekend of the nca Final four. So I'm a year
behind the Fab five, right, Jalen Rowse, Chris Webber, all

(16:30):
those guys, Jimmy Jackson. So on my visit is the
night of the final four game. So Ann Arbor was
just electric, right, the place was going crazy and it
was like this is great.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
I'm like, this is it. This is where I'm going
to school, Like I'm in and you know, so this.

Speaker 4 (16:46):
Is obviously before time of verbal commitments and all this stuff.
But I you know, I told the coach, I'm like, hey,
this is where I want to go. Great business school.
I think it was a number three buses school in
the country. So it had the academics, it had the athletics,
it had you know, just a great culture. Had got
as they were competitive on an international stage. And but
my vis I literally I was going from Michigan to
state college. So and I tell people all the time,

(17:09):
if if my visits were separate, if Penn State was
the next weekend, I most likely would have canceled my
visit to Penn State and I would be going to Michigan.
But I flew from ann Arbor to Michigan, got there
on Sunday and it was just a you know, Sunday night,
hung out with some of the guys. We went to
a movie. Monday, we actually watched the NCAA basketball tournament.

(17:31):
So I'm on my visit to Penn State. I'm telling
these guys, I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna be going to
school with these guys next year. It's gonna be awesome.
You know, Michigan's great, and these guys you know, John
Russ Hughes were hosting me, and they're like, yeah, whatever,
you know, and you know, next day coach Fritz and
coach Lorenzo. So Lorenzo this is last year he was
retiring friends was taken over. They drove me home on

(17:53):
Tuesday and I sat in the back of the car.
I fell asleep. I slept the whole ride home. So
I didn't even talk to the coaches. Had a great visit,
but it wasn't anything, you know, I just and and
when I when I think back to it, when I
was on these other places, I felt like I was
on a recruiting visit, like they were trying to sell me.
When I was at Penn State, I felt like this
is I was home, like it was in any special treatment.

(18:15):
And it wasn't like, hey, this is where you're going
to be like, I just felt like one of the guys.
And so that played something, you know after the fact
when I go back and I realized it. But the
night before signing date and this, you know, I talked
to people back and forth and this is where people
laugh when they hear so I just said, you know,
no one knows correction me one way or the other.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
They said, you know, hey, you got to you have
you have great options.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
So I went to bed and I said, I said,
the first school that pops in my head when I
wake up tomorrow, that's where I'm going. And I woke
up and it was Penn State. So I, you know,
I leaned over. I had, you know, the letters in tense,
I signed the letter, I'd put an envelope, and I
didn't tell anyone for about a week. You know, I
sent the letters back, but I didn't tell I Prent,

(19:00):
didn't tell my coaches, and no one was stressing me
out about it. They were just like, you know, which
is normal time, normal time. And then you know, finally
I was like all right, you know, I told my coach.
I'm like, I'm going to Penn State.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
It was like great.

Speaker 4 (19:11):
Later that, you know, a couple of weeks after, so
this is and now again just the way time has
changed recruiting.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
This is mid April. So I had made my decision.

Speaker 4 (19:20):
Carrie Colott, who was the number one rank guy in
the country, you know, four time undefeated Pennsylvania State champ,
he had committed like the week before, and you know,
so so this is I'm just the way of changes.
So the number one kid in the country and then
I wasn't a super highly ranked kid, but we both
made our decisions in mid April. Later that month, the

(19:40):
es forr Nationals, which is you know u w W
junior now the national Championshis were in Orlando, and my
coach took us down there and made a couple of
my teammates and Penn State was that they had about
twenty guys down there, and I saw a coach, Ouishi,
who was huge in my time at Penn State, and
I saw him down there and I said, hey, I said,
I'm coming, and he's like, I know, and that's you know,

(20:04):
if you know what issues And that's when, you know,
kind of the word got out that I was going.
So but yeah, that's you know, again, long story of
how that happened. But it's just like it wasn't similar
to starting the sport itself. It wasn't a traditional way,
and you know, literally the night before I first name
that popped in my head and then as I played
back through and.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
I realized, you know, I go to events.

Speaker 4 (20:26):
Penn State had ten, fifteen twenty guys at every international
freestyle event. During the year, and these other schools had
two or three or four, So I just knew their
commitment to international wrestling was very high. Kenny Churtou was
an Olympian in eighty eight and then you know, they've
had a lot of guys that were Olympic alternates in
ninety two, so I knew that they were committed to

(20:47):
international wrestling. And you know, they were top five in
the country every year, so I knew they had a
good program. They had a few national champs. Jeff Prescott,
you know, he was national champ in ninety one. They
came back in one in ninety two, So they had
the they had the success, they had the academics, they
had the commitment to international wrestling, and and ultimately, like
it was, you know, I felt like I was I
was home there. So so that's how I ended up there,

(21:08):
and you know, I think I think it turned out
pretty well for me.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
What was it like being a teammate of Carrie Colat
Like when I say his name, what what comes down?

Speaker 3 (21:18):
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, it was.

Speaker 4 (21:22):
And it's no like literally, I would I would I
would question my ability of like being a you know,
an athlete at all. When he would the things that
he would do, I'm just like, who is this? Like
how do you how do you do that at at
nineteen years old? And you know some of the workouts,
and I would I would try to, you know, because

(21:44):
you wanted to be around.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
So it was Sean.

Speaker 4 (21:46):
Nelson, it was Carrie Colott, sanhur Abe John and Russ
Hughes like they were the guys. And obviously like guys
like Troy Sunnel and Dave Hart, Matt White, they were
older guys. But these are the guys that were a
year older than me, and you know, and obviously like
Colott's and class. So these guys the way they would train,
and I would, I would, you know, or we're gonna
go work out and I'd come in and I'd be

(22:07):
a bigger guy, so you know, sometimes that I wouldn't
have a partner, so I just maybe ride the bike
or sit it. And I would see these guys go
after it, and I'm like, what is going on now,
I'm coming.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
I'm coming from New York.

Speaker 4 (22:17):
And we had you know, I was one of the
best teams in New York and we had some success,
and but the level of wrestling that these guys had
was just off the chart.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
I means.

Speaker 4 (22:26):
I remember we wrestled Iowa my freshman year at home
and Colotte wrestled Bill's Attic and.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
It was a big match.

Speaker 4 (22:32):
And Colott is first time I saw a flying cement job. Right,
I'm like, what what is this?

Speaker 5 (22:38):
Like?

Speaker 3 (22:39):
What you know, what kind of sorcery are we seeing here?

Speaker 4 (22:42):
You know, he had the trick knee and he would
do those things, and I mean just the way that
he would wrestle, this is the way he would train.
So it's just like you know, I would try, you know,
like all right, these are all right, I'm gonna all right,
this is what they're doing. When I'd be on the
side trying to follow it, and you know, halfway through it,
I'm like, man, I can't.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
I'm done.

Speaker 4 (22:58):
I'm I'm I'm I'm spent. And they would go another
forty five minutes, they go another hour and and I okay,
I'm gonna try and jump back in. And then you know,
the worst part was when those guys decided to pick
on me, when all you.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
Know, all four of them would jump and get on
the big guy.

Speaker 4 (23:11):
And I just you know, it's like those movies when
you see like the lion, you know, the bears and
everything's jumping on You're just like you're trying to throw them.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
Off, and I just couldn't do anything.

Speaker 4 (23:20):
So but it was it was great because they set
they set such a high standard of preparation and you know,
and and just trying to be the best and working
hard that even though I couldn't keep up with them,
just the idea that I was seeing what they were
doing and some of other teammates are like, all right,
those guys going, let's see what we can do. And
so it always, you know, kept that that that trend
for me of always trying to get better. So I'm like, okay, well,

(23:42):
if I can show up, they're gonna show up six o'clock,
I'll be there at six o'clock. And if they're gonna
do fifty minutes of wrestling, I'm gonna go and try
and do what I can. Or I'm gonna ride the bike,
or I'm gonna jump rope and I'm gonna stands in motion.
So so they definitely raised the bar and helped me
to just understand what it is to to always strive
for more. And so with Carrie, the success you know
his friend year, he's in the NCA finals, He's in

(24:02):
the Big ten finals. It's like, you know, that's that's
the standard, and you know, it's like, Okay, we want
to we want to get there. So if he's going
to do something, I'm gonna try and do him best
to be right there with him.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
I'm gonna go all over the place in this conversation
because it's just fascinating to me. How would you describe
when you look at the course of your career your perseverance,
Because that's when I look at your career and in
conversations I've had with you, that's the word that comes

(24:35):
to mind. I mean, as great of a career as
you had, and it was magical. I mean you got
a unicorn hanging from your head, unicorn career. But like
this sport does, it's it's not always easy. You know,
all those credentials are phenomenal, but there's a story behind
every one of those. Ye to describe your perseverance in
your career.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
Yeah, And that's that's a great question.

Speaker 4 (24:57):
I think one of the things not any people get
to finish their career on their own terms. Now, not
in the sense of wins and losses. But you know,
in two thousand and four, I finished competing and I
felt like I could have competed more, but I made
that conscious choice to transition and to be ready to
go on. And I can look back, and you always

(25:17):
look back and say, hey, you know, I wish I
would have done this, or I could have, you know,
should have done this. But being able to say, Okay,
I'm done, I'm moving on and ready for the next step.

Speaker 3 (25:26):
That's something that I'm most proud of with my career
is that, you know.

Speaker 4 (25:28):
Because of the longevity and the things that I was
experiencing when I got done, even though I didn't accomplish
all the accomplishments or you know, accolades that I wanted to,
I was able to walk away from the sport. And
you know, I've been very fortunate. I haven't had any
major injuries throughout my career, and you know, I you know,
I get a little nix and dings here, but but

(25:49):
I'm able to still continue to stay connected with sport.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
I can get on the mat, roll around and play
with my kids and do that stuff.

Speaker 4 (25:53):
So I think that's really the one of the things
that that was able to preserve through that perseverance, but
a lot of people talking with just the ups and
downs in my.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
Of my career.

Speaker 4 (26:02):
And you know, I never set out to do one
specific thing, right, Like, my goal from the start was
just to get better through the through the career, able
to figure out different things that I wanted to try
to strive for, but really understanding that I was given
a gift. You know, God gave me some great people
in my life. He gave me some skills. You know,

(26:24):
had people around me. And I talk about this a
lot that I think it is so important in this
day and age, is that I always had people.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
That were encouraging me.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
You know.

Speaker 4 (26:35):
So that first year in wrestling, when I didn't win
a match, you know, and I was getting beat up
all the time, there was no one saying, oh, why
don't you just give this up, You're no good? Like,
there was always somebody there that was able, Hey, let's
you know, let's work on this. I mentioned Nicky Hall
and my junior year. So when my game my sophomore year,
I didn't make it out of the tournament, the league tournament.
My junior year, you know, I made some and he

(26:56):
was on team and I remember him the two three
weeks for a county tournament. He took me, you know,
he grabbed me a car and he took me around
the county and we watched the five or six best
guys in in our county, and he came up with
a scouting report, and you know, and we prepared for
those guys to be ready when we competed against him.

(27:17):
You know, that's not something that you normally get in
in sports, where something you know, he's a he's an
older guy. But that's a relationship we had. And obviously
my coaches through the years, my workout parts. But I
was just very blessed to have people throughout my career
at every level, from middle school through international that were
always there to help me in the good times, but

(27:37):
more importantly in the down times. I've had a great
story after my my sophomore my freshman year in college,
I you know, I was one or two at the
NCAA tournament and I was I was broke, you know,
like it just I hate losing, and I'm out of it.
Similar to remember I said my sophomore year in high school,
when I sat in my high school gym, I sat
in my hotel room that night and I said again,

(28:00):
you know, big, big, big statements, right, I'm never going
to lose another match. So I had set that and
I was just growing. I didn't want to be around anybody,
just traditional like leave me alone.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
I want to just be alone.

Speaker 4 (28:12):
And the Booster Club had us has a dinner, you know,
as they always do, and you know something, they convinced
me to come to the dinner, and I'm like, I
don't want to be around people I don't see.

Speaker 3 (28:21):
And everyone there was, you know, and I was one
and two. I'm a true freshman, one or two at
th ins to term.

Speaker 4 (28:25):
I didn't you know, I scored up a half a
point for our team, so it wasn't like and you know,
incurred patent the backs and you know, you're you're still
a part of a family, we love you. That that's
a full atmosphere. And then I remember this, uh something,
you know. The dessert was this chocolate cream pie, and
someone put this big piece of chocolate cream pie in
front of me, and I remember like all the cares

(28:47):
in the world just melted away, and and I just
I was like, okay, like you know, this is it.
Every year from that point on, when we have a
booster Club event. We'd have you know, different gatherings. Christensen,
who was one of our big she would have a
chocolate cream pie for me, right, and so it's just
like those because you know at that point, like that

(29:07):
was the thing that got me out of the front
my freshman year at the NCAA tournament. So this was
like that little room like every year, like hey, we've
got you, We're with you.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
Right.

Speaker 4 (29:17):
My freshman year, I lost to Ovanis Oganesen at the
National Duels and I was winning four zero, got thrown
on my back with ten seconds left to be you know,
to tie the match up. Then it got taken down
again in overtime to lose the match. We were up
by maybe were up by eight as a team, you know,
so if he gets the pin then going into the finals,

(29:40):
they just need to win to win the National Duels.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
So I didn't get pinned.

Speaker 4 (29:45):
Actually, Kenny Churchill came off the mat and gotten a
way of the work because we were out of balance,
and so I ended up losing that match and then
Greg Greg Truxel won lost to rule on but he
didn't give up bonus points, so we won National Duels.
So now we're you know, we're National Doomy champions. Everyone's
fired up, and I'm still like, I just lost this match.
And my coach, John Fritz, who you know, he just

(30:06):
coached the National Duel Meet championship.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
He comes over to me, he pathy gives me some
encouraging words.

Speaker 4 (30:11):
My teammates came around, They're like, hey, it's all good,
we're doing you know, and that right there, like so
that encourage mes. So that just happened to me consistently
throughout my career, and I think that made a big
difference because it wasn't I was very fortunate to never
feel that that burden of like, hey, I'm letting people
down or I'm doing it like I did it for
the love of it, and people regards to the result.

(30:33):
People still cared about me and people supported me, you know.
So I think that was a big thing with my
perseverance and allowed me to continue to go because if
I had a bad match, if I had a bad performance,
you know, I didn't have to worry about someone coming
and yelling at me and berating me and all that.
It's just like, hey, we'll get him next time. And
that was really fortunate throughout my career. At every step
that that would happen. And you know, and I sometimes

(30:55):
I took it a little bit worse when I lost,
But no matter what, somebody was always there to encourage me.
And so I think that really was a big part
of being able to stick with it for as long
as I did.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
As you mentioned, you're at one ninety as a true freshman,
you go one and two at the national tournament. That's
in nineteen ninety three. Fast forward a year later, it's
in nineteen ninety four. You bump up away to heavyweights
and you're a national champion. For lack of a better
way to ask it, Carrie, how in the hell does

(31:28):
that happen?

Speaker 5 (31:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (31:29):
Yeah, Well again I go back and you know, the
easy thing is, you know, I just as I said before, right,
I sat in my hotel room that night and I said,
I'm never going to lose another match, right, you know,
And then I go back, like God gave me some
great people to help me along the way, you know,

(31:49):
encourage me, help me train, you know, coach me.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
But it just you know, I have the saying right.

Speaker 4 (31:57):
When you know your goals will will dictate your you know,
your daily routines.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Right, So I don't think I didn't work hard.

Speaker 4 (32:04):
I don't think I wasn't committed prior to that, But now,
like in a situation, everything I did was like, hey,
I'm I'm not going to lose again. I don't want
to feel that way again. So you know, the five
minutes later, staying after practice, you know, they're getting up
early and going and running, the staying, you know, staying
in on the weekends and not not you know, going
out and being social. I remember, you know, I used

(32:25):
to go on the weekends. I used to go down
and train. Greg Holliday was a national runner up for
Penn State. He was a heavyweight. My freshman year, he
was a grad student and he was on campus, so
I used to work out with him a lot. Sophomore year,
he was only on campus, you know, a couple times
a month, so I would drive down to his house
to train with him. You know, he's six six two six,
He's just a monster. So I would drive down Friday

(32:46):
night after practice and I'd stay for the weekend. We'd
get up at six o'clock in the morning, I'd work
on He was a farmer, so we'd pack eggs. He's
you know, had a chicken farm, pack eggs, you know,
throw the hay out, feed the almost, go work out
at eight, you know, relax, go for a nap, hang out,
work out again that night, Saturday night, get up Sunday morning,

(33:08):
work out, and then I drive back to State College,
you know, And I would do that a few times,
you know, throughout the season because it was like I
knew that was a thing that I need to do
to get better, you know, as as as that what
became a norm. And then when he'd come to town, and
you know, my coaches were great, you know, put me
in a situation where I might have three or four
guys switching off of me, you know, to to just

(33:31):
make sure I was in shape and I can wrestle.
And you know, so I just I had a lot
of support in that. And then every time I competed,
you know, moving up a weight class. My freshman year,
I was cutting a lot of weight, and you know,
I was like Monday and Tuesday, We're really focused on
trying to get better at wrestling, and Wednesday, Thursday, Friday
was losing weight and getting ready for competition. So now
I was able to focus on getting better at wrestling

(33:53):
every day. You know the day of match, I could
you know, I have my practice match and wrestle live
in the morning the day of competition. So, you know,
I think the combination of just constantly being able to
work to get better, having the tools and resources around me,
coaches and workout partners that were going to push me,
and again going back to that encouraging environment, you know

(34:13):
that I knew that I wasn't doing it for some
kind of love and affection. I was able to do
it and be free and like, I'm just going here
to be the best that I can be, and I
know when lose a draw, these people still have my
back and they're going to support me. So I didn't
have that pressure of like I have to go out
there and do it for somebody. I'm able to just
go out there and be free and let it happen.
You know, had some good matches, a couple of close

(34:35):
ones here and there, but it was just like I
just I loved going out there competing, and I love
doing it for my teammates and my coaches and you know,
to glorify glorify God and everything that I did, you know,
And it's amazing because during it, while I was going
through it, I may not have recognized it as much,
but looking back on it, it's so much easier to
see how important that stuff was.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
What do you remember about running to the raised platform
in nineteen ninety four? That was North Carolina the Dean
Dome probably you know Pat Smith had won his fourth
obviously good before you rustled at anyway, but what's that
moment in life? You put it into words, you are
rustling for a national title, like how amazing?

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Is it?

Speaker 3 (35:19):
So another thing with it, just process wise.

Speaker 4 (35:22):
Right, So at Penn State my freshman year, they had
all of our national champs. I mean, the room now
is amazing, it's but they had you know, eight x
ten you know, headshots of all the national champs. And
so every day my freshman year when I ran around,
we warmed up. I would look at that and said,
my face is going to be on that wall next year.
And so I didn't do it my freshman year. So

(35:45):
sophomore year, same thing. I look at it every day.
My face is going to be a wall at the
end of this year. And so I remember that, you know,
going up to the stage that year. I mean a
lot of stuff happened, right, you know, Colott was in
the finals. He lost, you know, close match there. Pat
One is fourth. You know, Lincoln mcquaray won his second title,
like all these people that you know, Dean Marson won

(36:06):
a national championship after Reese Andy headlocked Less Gutches in
the semis like, so all these amazing things were going on.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
You know, Sammy won his title, Sammy Hens.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
So it's just like and so I'm the last one
up there, and I just remember, like, this is this
is when you.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
Get your picture on the wall.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
Now.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
Fortunately for me, I had wrestled, you know, wrestling Justin Greenley,
and I'd wrestledhim earlier in the year, so i'd you know,
I had a leg up, so to speak. But I'm like, yeah,
you got to go out there and you got to
earn your earn, your earn your picture on the wall.
And so I remember that, and you know, once I
got once I got on the mat, it's like, okay,
let's go, let's wrestle.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
And you know, fortunately I was able coming on top.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
What's it like standing it's out that podium as a
national champ.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
You know, it's it's words really can't describe it.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
It's it's amazing because you know, obviously back then there
was no random start, so it was the last match,
and traditionally, you know, as the heavyweight wrestle, a lot
of people leave the arena, and it got to the
point where when in my career, some people are sticking
around a little bit more so there were actually people
in there that were there. And I just remember after

(37:12):
I won, it was like, again, my first thought was Okay,
my picture's going on the wall. And then I'm like, okay,
US opens in a couple of weeks, so let's enjoy
this and get ready for the US Open. And the
funny thing was so again, first time winning a national championship.
You know, they have drug testing, and I you know,
I hadn't had the drug test very often in the past.

(37:32):
So my thing, you get drug you get notified, you
go right back coming off the mat, right we just wrestled.
I'm dehydrated, so you know, it's hard to go. So
it took me about an hour and a half before
I finally was able to get out of drug testing.
So I get out and the arena's empty, there's no
one left in there, and so you know, again to
be able to celebrate like you go, you get on

(37:52):
the podium and you go and see it all.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
And I didn't get to do that. So I go out.

Speaker 4 (37:56):
The arena's empty, it's lockdown. I go outside and my
my family was out there waiting for me.

Speaker 3 (38:02):
You know.

Speaker 4 (38:02):
So it's probably eleven thirty at night, and I remember
just going and we ate dinner, and I went back
to my to my hotel room and I had a
couple of my buddies that were crashing there afterwards, and
I went to sleep. So I got to I got
to experience, got my hand raised. I saw some you know,
our academic advisor named is Sandy Meyers. She was there

(38:23):
and I got to see her, and then went to
drug test and then came back. So my family went
home and it was funny. We went to eat and
somebody said they were watching you know, they watched her
and like, hey, I like to buy you a beer.
My mom was saying there for you. She's like he's nineteen.
So but yeah, but it was just like that idea
of like okay, like I went, you know, I won

(38:44):
this match, and you know, I'm excited. Let's keep getting better,
let's keep on rolling. So but yeah, it's incredible feeling
and and and more so than.

Speaker 3 (38:51):
For me, But just to be on that stage with
the other.

Speaker 4 (38:53):
Guys, I mean, you look at that that was a
pretty pretty solid group of champs that year, and you know,
just to be one of those guys was was pretty awesome.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
Nineteen ninety five, you wrestle Justin Greenley, who you had
just beaten to win your first national title. He gets
you in the semi finals. One thing I talk about
carry all the time is the national titles. That's fantastic,
But I've I've become a guy that's almost fallen in

(39:23):
love with third place. I mean, you're the reigning national champ,
you get beaten the semis by a guy that you
won the previous season to win a national title, and
now we're gonna find out, quite frankly, what you're made
out of. Yeah, I mean, if that's my opinion, I
think I think those are the scenarios where you really
find out what you got, what you recall from that

(39:44):
journey and speak to the honor in taking third place
and why it was so important to get that next
best thing. When my guess is you probably didn't feel.

Speaker 4 (39:54):
Like it, well, yeah it was. I mean that that year. Again,
my goal is just go out and be my best.
And you know, again I said it, and I never
lose again. So when I lost that match, it was
it was, it was, it was tough. It was tough, right,
But then the idea is, okay, well, you know, you
gotta you gotta finish, and you know, and I look

(40:15):
back on that whole experience, and you know, it came back,
got beat. I remember just after that last whistle blow.
And by the way, that that match is still in
the protest, so if they overturn it and I get
the return, I'll be but I remember the whistle blue.
And so we're I mean, obviously we're in Iowa. You know,
we're wrestling a guy from northern Iowa. He's an Iowa boy,

(40:36):
great guy. Justin's a great guy. You know, fifteen thousand
people whenever it was and it was dead silent to me,
like you know, you hear people like it was silent.
I couldn't hear anything for a good five or six minute.
I went shook his hand and walked out with my
coaches and heard zero. And so right after that, it

(40:56):
was like, all right, I gotta come back and get third.
You know, and that's like, I just I gotta win
my next match. And ironically enough that year, so in
the Constellation Semis, I would have had to wrestle Nikki Paul,
who's my teammate, and he was a little bit banged up,
you know, so in a situation it was like, you know,

(41:18):
are we going to wrestle? And he ended up he
ended up forfeiting to me because he was kind of
banged up and he wanted to have energy to finish fifth,
so he forfeited me in the Contact Semis and then
I had to wrestle for third and and just came
back into battle and you know, I won that third
place match. But what I really remember about that time

(41:39):
is I had to I didn't say I had I
went through that. And then if we remember in ninety five,
Lincoln MacCray lost to Steve Marinetti and Lincoln and I
were we were on the Cadet World team together. We're
on the Junior World team together. I've known Lincoln forever.
I mean, I we're on the junior World team in
ninety two, I said, yeah, he's going to I'm going
to Penn say. I'm like, we're gonna beat you guys,
and he like, yeah, right, and we never did. We

(41:59):
never beat in the duel.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
We tied him.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
We won the national duels, but they won the NCAA
tournament and you know, they won the Big ten. So
but we had a strong relationship, you know, for a
long time prior to that. So I got beaten the
Semis and then I won for third place, and then
he lost in the finals, and I remember finding him

(42:22):
after he lost, and after I you know, because again
he's returning, he's two time returning champ, and I remember
going to find him and just like being with him
during that time, and it wasn't about it was just
like that's my friend. I don't care, you know, what's goods.
But like we just went through this, you know, in
the grand scheme of things. You know, it's it's a

(42:43):
wrestling match, but like it's something that's really important to
a lot of people and to us, just to go
out there and be our best. And we both lost,
and I just remember being able to spend time with
him after that because I had just experienced the night
before and just to be able to be there. So
so I remember that more show than the fight back
to get third because you know, for me coming back
get third, it was it was no, it was it

(43:04):
was a non question, like I need to come back,
and you know, I need I need to finish this
thing off.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
I can't get you.

Speaker 4 (43:09):
Know, I'm not gonna win, but I'm not gonna you know,
I'm not gonna lose anymore. And and be able to
spend time with him, and that was something that was
really special to me about about that event. And yeah,
so it was a pretty cool thing just to be
able to experience that. And ideally I would have I
would have liked to have not had to comfort him
or had to share that experience with him, but you know,

(43:31):
it all worked out.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
So then in ninety six year red shirt correct, yep, yep,
ninety seven, you get back out on top against Steven Neil.
You guys had crazy battles.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Yeah, yeah, crazy battles.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
I mean two absolute gladiators.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
What do you remember from from that ninety seven title
and getting back out on top?

Speaker 3 (43:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (43:53):
So my again, I have to give so much credit
to my coaching and work, our partnership. We actually we
went to California earlier December January of my senior year
with the full intent for me to get a chance
to wrestle Stephen, and we went out there. We wrestled
Fresno and Bakersfield in a duel, and I beat Steven
four to h takedown escape riding time. And you know,

(44:16):
he's a sophomore, Rechard sophomore, so he's young. So but
we wanted to get a you know, we wanted to
feel for him wrestling there, and then we came back
and wrestled in the finals. And the thing is, and
you know, we're talking for just about the you know,
the level of the things that I was able to accomplish,
and you know, I was very fortunate that year that
NCAA tournament. We had seven returning in state All Americans.

(44:39):
We had two returning NCAA champions, myself and Taler Thompson.
We had an Olympian Jason Gleiesman was an Olympian in
ninety six, and obviously Stephen Neill end up being a
future NFL All Star. But like in that weight class,
that's what we had. We had seven All Americans, two
champs in an Olympian in that weight class that year,
so you know, it was there was a lot of

(45:01):
talent in there, and plus some younger guys that came
up through. I mean Shelton Benjamin was in it, who
ended up doing real well and going so incredible weight class,
among other.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
People that were there.

Speaker 4 (45:10):
So to navigate through that, it was just like every
match you know, there was, you know, just just great matches,
great athletes going after it. So when I get to
the finals, you know, similar it's my last college match.
You know, I'd beaten Steve early before I knew they
were going to make adjustments. I'm making adjustments, and you know,
I felt like I was doing a real good out,
pushing the pace. I got him hit for stalling early

(45:31):
in the match, and it's the matches going well. I'm right,
I know I could ride them, and I don't know
if you remember the match, but I'm riding them. And
then he you know, he has a grambying reverses me
and almost gets back points. So he gets a two.
I get an escape. Third period, I get out getting
escape and I pressure pressure. He gets hit for stalling
about twenty seconds left and and I win three to two,

(45:55):
And it was, you know, in such an incredible battle.
You know, I just felt, you know again that match
that I had to wrestle early was a big match
to be able to go and then come back and
finish that way, but just to finish it off and
again that ninety seven class of national champs and that
finals is it's an incredibly and just topp to bottom
so much amazing. I mean, that's when Gable and Io

(46:16):
broke scoring record. They had five five six in the finals.
Five champs. You know, Lincoln won his third title, like
you know, Lee Fulhart won a title. John Caten was
in the finals towards acl first round and wrestled all
the way back to the finals. Like just so much
stuff in that in that event, and so to be
a part of it, and I remembers at the U
and I Dome, which you know, I got off the

(46:38):
mat and I remember running up in the stands and
seeing my family and stuff and and just that overall thing.
And then so that's the competitive side of it. But
really what I thought was really special about it. So afterwards,
so I remember, I told your story about my sophomore
year with drug testing, So I'm like, I'm not Now
I've had a few other years of you know, drug test, so.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
I got it, but I'm like, I'm not reporting right.

Speaker 4 (46:57):
Now, and so I hung out after you you have
an hour report, So I hung out, spent time, you know,
got to see people interact, you know, friends and you
know people on the floor, coaches, and it finally went
back to report.

Speaker 3 (47:09):
You know, it was in and out in like five minutes.
So it was the right thing to do. Go back
to the hotel with my family and this is really
what the coolest thing.

Speaker 4 (47:16):
My family and Steven Neil's family spent about an hour
and a half in the hotel lobby just hanging out. Right,
So I just you know, this is the guy that
had just beating the NTA finals and we were able
to hang out and just it wasn't about wrestling. It
was just about and you know we had wrestled each
other a few times in the past, but you know,
who knew that throughout the next few years we're going

(47:36):
to battle back and forth. But to be able to
have that interaction and to this day, Stephen Neil and
I are you know, we have a great relationship. You know.
I remember in four when I was wrestling at the
at the US Open. He called me before the finals.
He's like, hey, you know, I just want to say
you know, go out there and kick butt, and you know,
I've seen him at multiple things, so that that's what
I remember most is like the foundation of our friendship

(47:58):
through the years was really four and our competitive you
know battles, but it was more than just competition, you know.
So to be able to go out and win that championship,
you know, come in and finish off, be a part
of that group of champions that year, and then build
that win a one of a you know, great relationship
through the years.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
It's really something that made that year special.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
You won the Hodge in ninety seven, winning that national title.
Where's the Hodge.

Speaker 4 (48:23):
Trophy right there, so yeah, it's uh yeah, that's something
that was pretty special. You know, the second, second, third
year of the event, you know, TJ or the award.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
TJ.

Speaker 4 (48:37):
Jeworski won it and then Lescutch has won it in
ninety six. So that year Lincoln mcray was outstanding the wrestler
of the NCAA tournament and you know, again he did
a great job, had a great career, won his third title.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
You know, we had the weight class with the seven
all Americans.

Speaker 4 (48:51):
Two champs, So the Hodge was one of those things
where it was like, well, who's going to get it?
And I remember at our banquet at the Penn State
Mike Chapman brought the award and presented it at our
senior so I didn't you know, I had no idea.
And this wasn't back where they had the crowd voting
and you know, another finalists. It was just we didn't
know who was going to get it until it was awarded.

(49:11):
So to be able to have it awarded at my
senior banquet was really special. And you know, again not
the not that we do it for those things, but
when you get acknowledged and recognize it's pretty cool.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
It's pretty cool.

Speaker 4 (49:24):
So that's something that you know, I just encapitulated all
the people and and people and situations and and opportunities
that I had through the years, and you know, wrapped
up in a bow with with that trophy.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
Want to back up for a second, because you brought
up that Steven Neil match from that from that final
and I always think, Carrie, like, I don't remember twenty
minutes ago, and I'm afraid that's wrong with me. And
then all of a sudden I'll remember something and I'll
feel pretty good about it. So while you were telling
that Stephen Neil story. I was thinking to myself, doing
this interview with you, I don't want to look stupid,

(49:56):
but in my mind, I was thinking to myself, what
I remember remember? What I think I remember is when
he won that match. I thought he went up into
the crowd.

Speaker 3 (50:05):
Yeah yeah, yeah, well alluded to it.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
I'm like, sweet, I still remember that. What did you want?
Because I was I don't. I'm assuming that was your
your mom or dad when you went up that was
your What did you say to her? What do you
remember from that embrace?

Speaker 4 (50:19):
So? My my, my mom is she's my rock right
like day one, obviously literally infervorly like I said it before.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
Like I wouldn't be here without her.

Speaker 4 (50:27):
So and she was always there right, not pushed, not pulled,
like she was just there for me. And so at
the end of it, you know, this is this is
the end of my college career, and you know you've
been there since the beginning, and I just wanted to
go up and just say thank you. And you know,
I appreciate everything you've done. So it's just like going
in and showing her some love. And you know I

(50:48):
had the you know, the ability to do that, and
you know, after I made the Olympic team, after I
made my second Olympic team, and you know, and so
significant accomplishments because I'm like, without you, I wouldn't be
here right now. So I always wanted to try and
give her that, you know, the first the first acknowledgement.
You know, I obviously have to take time to get
through there, but like, I want you to know that
you're important to me and when.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
I do something, you're right there with me, and just
thank you for it.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
Where are the two wall sharts NCAA Championship wall shirts?

Speaker 3 (51:17):
So they were at my parents' house for a long time.

Speaker 4 (51:20):
You know, as you get older, parents they started to
accumulate stuff and they're like, okay, now you're old enough,
you can take these back. So maybe like five or
six years ago, I went home and my parents had
a lot of boxes and stuff and they gave it.
So they're in my basement now. But they're at my
parents' house for a good you know, twenty five thirty
years and now.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
I have them and I got to do a little cleaning.

Speaker 4 (51:43):
There's you know, maybe a little bit of dust on them,
but they're down in my basement. And yeah, it's pretty
cool to get those back and look at them. And
my wife's done a great job of decorating my office
and hanging some stuff, and you know, there's still some
room for some things. So maybe one day they'll go
up in the wall, but they're in the basement right now.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
You got a world silver medal in two thousand and three.
What what is your most Friese possession as far as
a wrestling award in your life? You got one that
stands out or maybe I'll put you on the spot,
which one?

Speaker 4 (52:15):
Yeah, Yeah, that's that's that's a good.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
Question, I think.

Speaker 4 (52:19):
So one of the things that I really and again,
you know, you don't get caught up in an awards
from when it happens.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
It's it's pretty cool. So in nineteen ninety.

Speaker 4 (52:29):
Five, I was I was voter Outstanding Wrestler of the
Big Ten Tournament, and I think I have three Outstanding
Wrestler awards in my career, but to be the OW
of the Big Ten Tournament, that was something that was
pretty pretty special. My other ow they got Outstanding Wrestler
at the National Duels one year, and I got Outstanding
Wrestler at the at the Pan Am Games. So so

(52:50):
I think that one the big ten outstanding wrestler was
you know, I won as a sophomore and then I
came back, so I wrestled Billy Pierce in the finals
as a sophomore, we wrestled overtime match, and then in
my junior year, I think I beat him five to one,
and you know, had a in Billy incredible competitor and stuff.
So those that's one of those that I definitely I'm like, yeah,

(53:12):
this is this is pretty cool.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
Knowing that who is in the field.

Speaker 4 (53:15):
And knowing what it means, you know, a getting the
Hodge Award, that's something that's you know, unmatched.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
But I think that that that.

Speaker 4 (53:23):
Uh, that outstanding wrestler is uh in that year was
was pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Olympics wrapped up a couple of weeks ago. You made
two Olympic teams, one in two thousand and one in
two thousand and four. Believe you beat Steven Neil to
make that that two thousand team.

Speaker 3 (53:38):
Yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
What do you remember from those Olympic experiences? What's top
of mind two decades later?

Speaker 3 (53:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's crazy to think about it.

Speaker 4 (53:48):
So the one thing that has always stuck with me again,
the process of making the team and then you know,
the team that helped me get there, everybody supporting me,
the ceremonies, it's I mean, you just words can't really
give it, give it the Duke credit. But you walk
into this arena and there's one hundred thousand people there screaming,

(54:10):
and you know, I'm walking next to NBA players, professional
tennis players, track world champions, world record holders, my teammates,
and it's.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
Just like, that's that's what it's all about.

Speaker 4 (54:20):
Like the winning and the losing, the war, the medals,
all that stuff, like that's something that's part of it,
but really just being under that Olympic flag, representing your country,
representing your family, representing your faith in this biggest stage.
And I you know, I've been able to talk about
it a good bit in the last few months obviously
coming into this. You know this year, you know, you're
ten thousand athletes in the Olympic Games, you know, and

(54:44):
of those athletes, maybe five hundred win medals. Right, maybe
there's five hundred medals given out. So you think about
the number of athletes that win medals, the number of
athletes that compete, you know, we got eight billion people
in this world, and only ten thousand of them we're
able to compete in the olymp Games. Right, so just
to be a part of that fraternity. You know, the
saying is never passed, never former. Once an Olympian, always Olympian, right,

(55:09):
And it's like when you go to that opening ceremonies
and you're going out there, that's when it really hits
and like, yes, this is what it's all about.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
Now.

Speaker 4 (55:16):
Obviously, you know you want to go and you want
to perform, you want to try to win a medal
and all that stuff, but you know there are you know,
nine thousand, five hundred people that don't win medals, that
didn't win medals this year. And if you say that
their Olympic experience, their Olympic existence is lessened because they
didn't win a medal, no way.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
Right.

Speaker 4 (55:36):
So so going through the opening ceremonies has always been
that thing that.

Speaker 3 (55:41):
Captures my heart about the Olympic Games.

Speaker 4 (55:43):
And then you're seeing the tribe, You're seeing the people
that you know aren't supposed to be there and they're there.
You see the people that aren't supposed to win and
they win, and you see the people that are supposed
to win and they have a stumble or an injury
or something like that, and just like the ultimate you know,
love and hate relationship with with life. But when it
all comes down to it, you know, somebody come, dust

(56:03):
themselves off, pick themselves up. Somebody comes and dust you
off and pick you up. And so that's what I
really remember about my personal Olympic experience is being able
to go and experience that opening ceremonies and you know,
the ups and downs, the highs and lows.

Speaker 3 (56:15):
But then every after that.

Speaker 4 (56:16):
So this year I was my sixth Olympic Games out
of you know, since my first one, I've been the
sixth of the last eight and and every time I
just get so excited about it because I know what
it means to step on that stage and to experience that,
and I'm just so so happy and excited for the
people they get to experience at as athletes, as coaches,

(56:37):
as administrators, and then even as fans and supporters to
be able to see that that triumph and that you know,
and that despair that that people go through, and there's
nothing like it. And it's just like, you know, every
four years you get a chance to run after it
and you know, put it all on display and win, lose,
a draw, No one can ever take that away from you.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
So that's what really got from those opening ceremonies.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
In all your experience as being at the Olympic Games,
what is your most memorable experience?

Speaker 3 (57:08):
Yeah? Yeah, So I've been pretty fortunate.

Speaker 4 (57:10):
So the first time I went to the Games, I
was Bruce Bomber and a training partner, and you know,
you talk about the roller coaster.

Speaker 3 (57:16):
He lost, He lost.

Speaker 4 (57:18):
In the in the earlier rounds and then he came
back and took bronze and so to be out there
and you know, as a partner and when he lost,
like everything just crumbles, like, oh my gosh, like how
could this happen? Like this is this is the guy,
you know, world champion ninety five, He's got Olympic go
old mel already. But then when he came back and

(57:39):
was able to win that that bronze medal, and to
be right there, you know, not Matt side, but in
the back room he won that was that was incredible
just to be a part of that, knowing how much
of an icon he is in the sport, how much
he's given to it, how you know, his fourth medal
and to be a part of that and to see
it that was incredible. And then just ninety six old,

(58:00):
I mean you see you know, Tom and Kendall win
and Townsend in the finals and Bruce gets the bronze,
and you know, the guys who were out there representing
our country and having it be in our home country,
being in Atlanta and just all that. So that's definitely
one of my my favorite experiences, just you know, being
in there, seeing Bruce come back and get the bronze

(58:21):
and seeing our other champs and then every year, I
mean I was, I was in London when when Jordan won,
I was in Beijing when when Henry won, and you know,
our other athletes that are winning medals and winning championships.
It's like just to see that too, because again, you
know everything that they put into it for them to
realize that. But then also the ones that didn't win,
you know how they came back, how they how they

(58:42):
held themselves in and being able to just really to
relish the experience. But I'd say definitely the time of
being with Bruce and seeing that is something I think
is really special and it really helped me to spark
and I remember, you know, I wrestled kurr Angle competitively
that year. I lost him a zero zero reference acasion
at US. So when he won the goal and he
was the world champion ninety five, when he won the goal,

(59:04):
that definitely put me like, okay, two thousand and I'm
going to be here so like that, that full ninety
six experience was was really important for me.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
I think to help me move along.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
Can I get a little more time or you got
to run?

Speaker 3 (59:19):
I'm good, I'm good. Okay.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
This is this is one thing that I've noticed with
you talking about this podcast so far. You need to
write a book. Have you ever thought about it?

Speaker 4 (59:31):
I have, I have my old strength coach Jovistari. He's
talked about that a bunch of times.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
Erry, carry on. I'm telling you you, with all your
experiences as an athlete and as a coach, like you
could write a book that would be riveting, raviting. So
I appreciate. I'm just going to keep going here because
I just you got so much wisdom and knowledge and
that this experience is so good. What is a what

(59:56):
is the match that stings the most?

Speaker 5 (01:00:03):
Oh man, I've got I've got I've got three, so
let me see it pick so honestly, so the one
that that they're all significant, right, but the one that
is like it's it's less significant, but it's one that
that I think about the most.

Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
So my junior year.

Speaker 4 (01:00:24):
In high school, at the New York State Freestyle tournament,
I lost to a kid named Jeff Schneider and he
was you know, he was he was a pretty good wrestler.
And and it's just like you know, you talk about
all the time, like you know, you should have won,
you could have won, and and I lost that match.
And that's the one that that really sticks sticks me,

(01:00:48):
you know, so my junior high school and I lost.
I lost a lot of matches to it, but that's
one that you know, anytime people bring it up, like,
that's the one that pops in my head first, you know.
Again it was for you know, New York State Freestyle championship.
You know, so again it's significt because of the competitive match.
But it wasn't like you know, something that stopped me
from going somewhere or anything like that. It was just

(01:01:10):
you know, state freestyle. So that one is, uh is
one that that sticks up?

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
And why is that carry, Why is it? Why is
it that match? Off all the big time matches You've
been in World Championships, Olympic Games, NC finals, and you're
going to a state freestyle not to discounted, but a
bed back in high school. So what was it about
that that stings? Yet?

Speaker 4 (01:01:33):
Yeah, it's just it's you know, I think it and
not to not to take anything away from Jeff, but
I think it was like that's it was like the
quintessential bad match for me. And he wrestled you know,
I don't think he wrestled like great, but he wrestled
well and I wrestled bad, and just one of those
things that you know when you know you have a
bad performance and it's like it just it just stings

(01:01:57):
because you know it's like, yeah, other bad performs you had,
and you know the caliber competition all that stuff, but
it's just one of those things where it's just like
I just had a bad match and I have no
no excuses, no rationalities, just it was a bad match
and he beat me, and yeah, and it's just like
one of those things. So I don't know, I don't
know why it's six so much, but it's just like
that was that that's that one match. You know, maybe

(01:02:20):
my teammates, my teammates.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
You know, bring brought it up enough that I common
state there.

Speaker 4 (01:02:25):
But it's just like, that's that's the one matter that
I that it was thinking about, and ironically enough, it's
just funny.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
So not that it's related to why I feel that way.

Speaker 4 (01:02:34):
But in two thousand and three, the World Championships are
in New York and I got a I got a
friend that I went to college with and they called me.
I got a voicemail the next the next morning and
they're like, hey, I'm standing out of this club and
there's this guy said he beat you in high school,
and and I don't believe him, so call me back

(01:02:55):
and it was Jim So he ran into one of
my college classmates and he's like, oh, yeah, you know,
somebody's wrestled. I beat him in high school. And so
again just how it comes full circle. But again I
don't and it's nothing, that's it. It's not significant, It
wasn't but just one of those things that you know,
when I think about, you know, those matches, that's the
one that pops up to my head.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
He had a couple, what were the other matches.

Speaker 3 (01:03:19):
So when I wrestled Joel share it my freshman year
in college.

Speaker 4 (01:03:26):
And and Joel, Joel's was better than me, you know,
all intensive purposes, right, But we're in the duelmate, and
we're wrestling, and it came down to the last We're
up by six, worked by six as as a team,
so if myself or the headway, if we win, we
win the duel.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
We beat Iowa at home.

Speaker 4 (01:03:45):
And and I lost, and I lost to Joel and
it was he was actually it was actually one of
those things where he was going for the for the
go ahead takedown to get a major, and I ended
up getting a takedown, so I saved the major, but
I lost the match, and and that one just that
one bothered me, not for my loss personally, but like
for our team, Like this is if I win that match,

(01:04:06):
you know, we beat Iowa. And and I never, like
I said, I never beat iowahe I was the team
as a coach.

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
We you know we beat them one time.

Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
But so that one just sticks to me because like
that was one of the things that for our team,
you know, we could have we could have done it,
and and that was that was a big one.

Speaker 3 (01:04:25):
The Finally, what.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
Did you guys hang on to win the duel or
did you lose that due we tied?

Speaker 4 (01:04:29):
So this is yeah, so and and this is there
was no criteria, so we end up tying that duel.
So we lost at ninety seven heavywe or ninety and heavyweight.
I lost to Drawl and then Greg Trucks lost to
John Osendor both decisions, but we tied the duel.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
So so yeah, that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:44):
One was just one that's like, ah, you know, if
I would have won, you know, we we could.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
Have beat Iowa.

Speaker 4 (01:04:49):
So that was that was the That was the closest
match yep, we had in my time in a duel
meet to beat them. So again, just one of those
ones that are like, ah, you know for the team,
and then you know the finals of the World Championships,
that one, that one's gonna that one stays with me
for a long time. You know, the match I lost

(01:05:09):
to Justin in the in the semifinals, that stayed with me.
State finals against Sean Diegle, that stayed with me. So
that I said, they have a couple of them. But
but yeah, definitely that my match against Jeff Snyder. I've
told everyone that I know anyone that that story has
been told multiple times. So Jeff, if you're out there listening,
thanks buddy.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
If you, Carrie had to go back and have a
conversation with yourself as a seventeen eighteen year old, looking
back on it, it sounds like everything's worked out pretty well.
You had great perspective on things. But if you could
go back and maybe give yourself some advice that you
needed at that time that you think would have proved
to be pretty critical, what would it be.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
Again?

Speaker 4 (01:05:53):
I think I was very fortunate. I had a lot
of people that gave me that good advice. The one
thing just answering the question now, I think I would
I would look back and say, try to enjoy, try
to enjoy things.

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
A little more. I was. I was super focused. I
was super you know driven.

Speaker 4 (01:06:11):
So in those circumstances where you know, we went to
a competition, I go to my hotel room, I stay
in my room and compete, go to my room and
go back, you know, So there were times where I potentially,
you know, probably maybe hey let's go down and we're
all going to go out, you know. I I say,
in two thousand, we were we trained in Canberra, which
is about two and a half three hours away from Sydney,

(01:06:32):
and I was in I was in Australia for two
weeks and I said, I didn't see.

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
One koality or one or one kangaroo, right. And one
night we were in our in our you know, in
the dorm where we're.

Speaker 4 (01:06:41):
Training, and they was like, oh, there's a herder kangaroo
out back, like and everyone out and they were taking
just one of those kind of funk things and I
was like, no, I'm I'm just relaxing here, you know,
I'm I'm resting, recover and getting ready and you know,
and I think it's important, but sometimes you know, it's
it's good to be able to go and you know,
just kind of pop out a little while just to
get that experience. And you know, so I think I

(01:07:02):
did a decent job of it. But you know, looking
back and some of those things where you think are
you know, not a big deal, you look back five
ten years you're like, oh, man, I wish I would
have just popped in and you know, said hi, or
went down to meet this person or something like that.
So so that's why I say, you know, take take
the time to enjoy a few more things, you know,
not get crazy and totally, but just yeah, if if

(01:07:24):
you're if your family's doing something on the weekend, you know,
you have a chance to slide over there and you know,
might take a couple of minutes in the car instead
of sitting on your couch and just relaxing all weekend,
maybe you can do that. Or you know, your buddies
are going fishing, even though you don't like fishing, maybe
just hanging out and sitting by the water or something
like that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
You know, maybe those things, you know, might be a
little more enjoyable.

Speaker 4 (01:07:46):
But but again, like I said, I feel confident that
every decision that I made, every every situation that I
was in, you know, through the people that are around me,
was the right thing. I don't have any regrets, but
I would say, yeah, you know, if there was an
opportunity where it wasn't that big of a deal to
you know, go for a walk instead of staying in
and just you know, relaxing, Maybe go for that walk

(01:08:09):
and smell roses.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
You mentioned earlier you loved basketball. Who is your favorite player?

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
So Magic Magic Johnson was my favorite player in high school.
You know, big big LA Lakers fan, you know, as obviously,
as as things evolved.

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
Michael Jordan was was pretty tough to beat.

Speaker 4 (01:08:30):
I don't I don't watch it at you know, in
the last few years, I'm not as big of a
fan as it wasn't high school. But yeah, growing up,
Magic Johnson was the guy for me.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
Did you have any posters of athletes in your bedroom
growing up?

Speaker 4 (01:08:42):
I did not in my bedroom, but in our room,
and I tell the story all the time, like one
of the things that kind of sparked me to this
Olympic thing. So eighty eight, obviously, John Smith and Kenny
Monday were the Olympic champions. Kenny be In the first
black Olympic champion. My college, my high school coach, went
to college with Nay Carr at Iowa State. So we
had and then we had the we had that that

(01:09:04):
poster with Kennyan and John, you know, taking the heart
of the competition.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
So one that's the Olympics, you know, Russia, Soviet.

Speaker 4 (01:09:11):
Union back then, you know, seeing a black man that
was an Olympic champ, So that made it something that
was tangible. Nay Carr, who was you know, college teammates
and his his the poster he was after workout all
sweating and said I don't do steroids, so neither should you.
So it kind of planted that things like you don't
need to do drugs, and then Bruce and Tim Vanny

(01:09:32):
anybody can wrestle poster. So those are the three things
that you know, we're in our wrestling room, and that
really those kind of set a standard for me and
in my in my wrestling crib, but just in life
in general of you know, the type of things and
the way he kind of wanted to live. So didn't
have any in my room, but uh, you know, I
mean I lived in the wrestling room for all those years.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
So pretty much the same thing.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
So piggy banking off the poster conversation, give me a
move if you remember it against somebody that you posterized him,
like carry McCoy poster. What is the Kerry McCoy poster
going to be?

Speaker 4 (01:10:06):
So there would be there would be two. So I
I got to my college coach, Hashiroishi. He was a
great judo athlete as well as as a wrestler, and
so through my college career I learned a few judo
physicians just to help.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
And that match that I said against ovonleas in my
fresh year.

Speaker 4 (01:10:25):
He hit me with an overhooked step step around trip
and then you know leg lace lateral throw. So I
ended up, you know, with the combination of that happening
to me and me like, okay, I need to learn
that technique. And my my college coach is judo expertise.
So I developed a pretty good overhooked you know, counter
series offensive series. So in the in the match against

(01:10:48):
Steven Neil and our first first match of the Olympic Trials,
you know, he's digging with an underhook, running through for
a far knee pick and I I hit him with
one of those. And then and one of my match
Tolly Thompson in the US Open, same type of deal.
I hit him with one of those and you know,
got some got some big air out of it. So
I'd say probably that would be you know, an overhook

(01:11:08):
stepper steppercross would be a good poster move.

Speaker 3 (01:11:12):
For for me.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
Is there a moment when you showed up on somebody's poster?

Speaker 3 (01:11:18):
No, yeah, yeah, there's definitely.

Speaker 4 (01:11:20):
So in ninety eight, well ninety seven, I wrestled Tom
Erickson in the finals of the US Open and he
latered me for four or three to my back. When
I wrestled Steven Neale in ninety eight US Open Semis,
so Thomas Thomas the finals, Steve Is in the semis
scrambled something, he got behind me and he back arched

(01:11:43):
me for They gave him five for it. I still
don't think it was five. I think he took me.
But but yeah, that those are one. Those are two
that I think would would make a good poster.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
A couple more questions for you, Carrie, want to talk
about you mentioned Kenny Monday wins gold medal, first black
wrestler to win a gold medal. Ye, speak to me
about that, the importance of because because you're involved right now, Carrie,
correct and excuse me. I know I've seen this before.
I mean that this means something to you. Yeah, it

(01:12:15):
means a lot. You tell me about this.

Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
Yeah, yeah, So you know it's a simple phrase.

Speaker 4 (01:12:19):
Representation matters, right, If you know, once you can see
somebody do something, it's it's that much easier. You go
back to the years ago when it's when the four
minute mile wasn't you know that was a barrier, right,
no one could run? And then after the four minute
mile was broken, you know, whatever the time was, there
were so many more people that broke the four minute
mile once. Once someone did it once. So once you

(01:12:40):
see something, it makes it that much more attainable. So
for Kenny and and and just to see it right,
to see he's an Olympic champion, that's something that you
can aspire to and you know, not only just trying
to be the first one, but now it's been done before,
you know, so now you know there's a space for
you to do that. And so to see that and
any situation, so you know, going back to anybody can wrestle,

(01:13:04):
so as Tim and Bruce as heavyweight and the lightweight.
So in two thousand and four, Patricia Morana and I
duplicated the deal. So again she was the lightest weight
on the women I was a heavyweight on the men's freestyle.
You know, she has multi ethnic background, male women, you
know side, so there were a lot of different diversity

(01:13:24):
things that were in there, and just to be able
to celebrate so now there's a lot of people that
can see, you know, these different things that are make
it okay, Now I can do it. So if I
don't ever see it, I have to be the first,
which is nothing wrong with that. But if I see
someone else, now, it gives me the permission to go
out there and do it. So that's really what Kenny
did for so many people, you know. And it's the

(01:13:44):
same thing. You look at Jackie Robinson in baseball, right,
It's like when these things happen, great things are a
result of it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
So for him to be the first was set, you know,
set the tone for a lot of greatness.

Speaker 4 (01:13:56):
And again I don't you know, not if it's super like,
all right, well, I'm gonna go out to be the
first person. He wants to be Olympic champ, right, and
then the idea that he'll be the first black one. Yeah, sure,
he still wants to be Olympic champ, and then everything
that comes with it. So so it's really everything after that.
Once you set that standard of yes, this is possible

(01:14:17):
for you as well, it is for them as well.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
You know, everybody can can be a part of it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:22):
So I think that's really the significant thing about seeing that.
But again for me, it was it was USA. It
was Olympic champ, it was USA, Soviet Union. And then
somebody that looks like me that that is achieving it
all that stuff together.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
What role has faith played in your wrestling journey?

Speaker 3 (01:14:41):
It's it's it's everything.

Speaker 4 (01:14:42):
And again on the backside of it, looking back, you know,
I can recognize it acknowledge a lot more as I
was going through, you know, junior high, high school, college,
I grew up in the church. Simple thing like every
every time I compete, I pray for you know, God,
give me strength to go out and perform to the
best of my ability and glorify you with my performance. Right,

(01:15:05):
And that's just kind of what it was. And as
I've gotten older and understanding, you know, more of it.
It wasn't just like, okay, you know, God protect me here,
but God's with me all the time. But as an athlete,
it was just that simple thing.

Speaker 5 (01:15:19):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:15:19):
I never prayed to win matches and never prayed, you know,
that somebody else would lose. It was just like, give
me the strength, give me the stamina, give me the
ability to go out there and wrestle my best and
glorify you when I do it. And it's amazing in
the last eight to ten years, how many more athletes,
especially in the sport of wrestling, have been able to
showcase their their faith because years past, it was taboo

(01:15:41):
no matter what religion you were to talk about or
to showcase or to acknowledge it publicly, you know, kind
of keep.

Speaker 3 (01:15:48):
That to yourself. So it's just so awesome now that
so many.

Speaker 4 (01:15:51):
Athletes are able to unashamedly share their face and glorify
and you know, and represent everything.

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
That's so special.

Speaker 4 (01:16:00):
So it's something like I said during it, as it
going through, it's kind of like, yeah, you know, I'm
praying and I believe. But as I get old and
really understand what that means and be completely committed to
my relationship with my savior is it's it's unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (01:16:15):
So so as an athlete going through it, it was important.

Speaker 4 (01:16:19):
But now looking back on it, how like I say,
you know, I used to talk about when we say,
going from nineteen seventeen to undefeated, a national champ, what happened?
And I used to say, yeah, you know, I worked hard,
I set my goals and I you know, I pushed
through it. As you get older, I realized, well, you know,
it was God's you know, ability to put me around
the right people, to give me the right circum and

(01:16:41):
at the strength that he gives me.

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):
It was him. It wasn't me, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:16:44):
So even though when I was younger, I you know,
I prayed and I believe that, you know, God was
with me. As I got older, I really understood more
what that meant, having a personal relationship with Jesus.

Speaker 3 (01:16:55):
Not just I go to church and I read my Bible,
but I have.

Speaker 4 (01:16:58):
That relationship and that's where I've been able to grow
in the last ten fifteen years. Where you know, in
high school and college it was like, Okay, I believe
in God and I'm going to pray, you know, for him.
But now he's on this journey with me and walking
it together.

Speaker 2 (01:17:12):
Fantastic Love that go arn It podcast name of the
podcast in your career Carried Again. I know this is
there's more than one. It's so awesome, Like you actually
take these questions head on. What is the go orn
it moment in your career? Like where is that one
time or you had to again learn something about yourself.

(01:17:36):
Deck is stacked against you and you had to go
earn it to propel you to great things.

Speaker 4 (01:17:43):
Yeah, yeah, I would say the one that popped ahead
when you first said it the World Cup. We rustled
the World Cup and it was USA and Iran. Great match,
back and forth, back and forth, came down we needed,
you know, we needed a pin to win.

Speaker 3 (01:18:02):
The World Cup. And I was wrestling pretty good Iranian
and you know, got put down and he gut wrenched me.

Speaker 4 (01:18:07):
I stepped over a gut wrench and I pinned him
in there and it was like one of those things
that again not just for me, but for for our team,
for our country, for the World Cup. That was that
was that was an incredible and incredible experience that you know,
and so I say, when you know, go earn it
and it affects so many other people, that was that

(01:18:28):
I would say that would be my going when I
was able to get that that extra extra point to
help us win the World Cup that first time and
you know, Agatt being able to be a part of
that and celebrate that with our team.

Speaker 2 (01:18:37):
For for the Good USA, would you be able to
answer this question looking at your wrestling and maybe it
wasn't even about wrestling, the most impactful conversation you ever
had with somebody about the sport, whether it was pertaining
to you or not.

Speaker 4 (01:18:57):
Yep, yep, yeah, I mean I go back and I've
said this before that after that match my freshman year
when I you know, I lost and we won the
National Duel Meet championship. Coach Fritz came over to me,
pat me on the bat. He said, it's gonna be okay,
You're gonna be fine. You're going to continue to do
great things.

Speaker 5 (01:19:15):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:19:17):
I think that that was that whole situation think is
one of the most meaningful impactful things of my career
because one, you know, not that I ever doubted it,
but you know, I'm at Penn State. I've decided to
go to Penn State, and you know, I'm wrestling as
a true freshmen and having an up and down year.
So that solidified that that was the place that I
needed to be, not just for wrestling, but this is
the place where I can be and they're going to

(01:19:40):
support me, and it was a right choice. My coaches
care about me, my teammates care about me. You know,
the supporters care about me. And no, again, maybe there
are some people behind the scenes that weren't so happy
about me being there and you know, losing these matches
every weekend. But the fact that he when he had
that conversation with me, when he could have been over
you know, lifting the trophy and so lebrating with for

(01:20:01):
the national championship. He came in and spent you know,
three or four minutes and just you're gonna be okay,
and you know, we're glad that you're here type deal.

Speaker 3 (01:20:08):
Was that was that was probably the most significant thing
in my career.

Speaker 4 (01:20:11):
And you know, there are other moments, you know, growing
up when you know someone passed me back and like
I said, with Nikki Hall taking me to scout these
people and internationally getting prepared, but that's the one that
always pops in. Is one of the most significant matches
and interactions that I've had in my career.

Speaker 2 (01:20:27):
Is there something about your career, Carrie, that very few
people know about? I mean, you got you got such
a great career, a log career. I mean, is there
something like kind of random or like I mean what
I mean, you got one of those stories.

Speaker 3 (01:20:42):
Maybe, so obviously some people know.

Speaker 4 (01:20:44):
So we talked about as for a work weight class
or age group. So my freshman year we went out
to to San Jose. They had the Esport Nationals there
and and actually I won greco and I lost in
the finals to freestyle. I lost to Jeff Walter, who

(01:21:04):
we you know, we battled in Wisconsin guy right, so
through which I rn. I just realized and after years,
like we have the same birthday, which is.

Speaker 2 (01:21:13):
Crazy birthday, August second, correct.

Speaker 3 (01:21:18):
So so I lost to Jeff.

Speaker 4 (01:21:20):
I won the Greco and so I was on the
the Greco Romans for World team and I ended up
finishing fifth at the fifth or seventh at the World Championship.
But during that camp, I was I was resigned to
the fact that like I'm not I'm like, I'm I'm
gonna be on the freestyle team, like something's gonna happen,
I'm gonna get in. Like, so I I like, I

(01:21:41):
like didn't want to train Greco because I was I
was holding onto this hope that somehow I'm gonna get
on this freestyle team, and you know I didn't. Jeff
won the World Championships and I ended up, you know,
finishing fifth and Greco. But that's something that you know,
I I was a national champion Greco, and you know,
I made a world team in Greco. So that's one

(01:22:01):
thing that a lot of people, you know, don't really
realize because at.

Speaker 3 (01:22:05):
That at that age group, Yeah, you don't know that.

Speaker 4 (01:22:09):
So I think that's probably one that not too many
people know about that I actually I won a national
champion in Greco and made a world team. Another cool
stat about my career that I like to share, and
I talked about Lincoln. So nineteen ninety I made the
Cadet World team, I met, the Junior World team I met,
and I made the Olympic team as well as senior
world teams. Nineteen ninety the Cadet World team. Myself, Lincoln McCrary,

(01:22:34):
Brandon Sleigh were on that team. Junior World team in
nineteen ninety two. Lincoln maccreary, Brand Sleigh and I were
on the team two thousand Olympic team Lincoln mcreay, Brands
Slay and I. So it's pretty cool that the three
of us were on you know, the age group levels
all the way up. They were no university university level
at that time in college. But that's pretty cool that

(01:22:56):
we you know, and I say, we see Brand all
the time and we've known each other and Lincoln we've
known each other for over thirty years and you know,
to still have a good relationship. So that's pretty cool,
non wrestling related specifically, but to have been on those
three teams and still have relationship with those with those
guys after all that time is pretty cool for me.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
You won three Big ten titles, Give me your Mount Rushmore.
And you of course coached at Maryland the Big tam
so you know Big ten wrestling, Give me your Mount
Rushmore of Big ten wrestlers cours what they did in college.

Speaker 4 (01:23:30):
Yeah, that's that's a real tough one because I mean
going I mean in the obviously the long history and
tradition of the Big Ten.

Speaker 3 (01:23:39):
It would be hard to do because I don't want
to leave some people out there.

Speaker 2 (01:23:42):
About just you personally carry like just just you, like
no wrong answers because you saw a guy you knew
a guy like not necessarily like debate, you know what
I mean, it's just yeah, now I get it.

Speaker 5 (01:23:54):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:23:55):
So for me personally, like I put Lincoln mclravey on
on Mount Rushmore. You know he was he was, he
was a monster, right, you know, I think about Tom
Brands dominating through that and then you know a little
bit of bias right now for.

Speaker 3 (01:24:13):
Recency bias and and holmes.

Speaker 4 (01:24:15):
You know, you look at you look at Aaron Brooks,
you look at bow Nickel, you look at at Ed Ruth,
you know, David, those guys.

Speaker 3 (01:24:23):
From Penn State. But yeah, I think that you know Lincoln, Lincoln, because.

Speaker 4 (01:24:28):
He's my you know, my contemporary, and what he was
able to do there, you know, I think ed winning
four titles in the way that he dominated through you know,
I think that with Aaron and with Bo and with Dave,
what they were able to do, Jason nol Vincenzo, like
all those guys that came through Penn State. I go back,

(01:24:49):
you know, again trying to spread it out a little bit.
Chris Campbell at University of Iowa. I mean, he's he's
just ridiculous. And then Lee Kemp for me, he's one
of those guys. It again, a groundbreaker and.

Speaker 3 (01:25:02):
What he was able to do.

Speaker 4 (01:25:03):
And so I would say, if I if I just
picked four just you know, off of a whim, I
would say Lincoln, I would say Tom, I would say Chris,
and I would say Lee.

Speaker 2 (01:25:15):
That's a great list. Would would you agree with this statements?
So I live in Wisconsin. Lee camp wrestled at Wisconsin.
I believe Lee Kemp might be the most under rated
and or underappreciated as great as he was. And he's
got the accolades. But I mean Lee camp was out
of this world. I mean, you gave me if you

(01:25:36):
gave me a card and said, I have to debate
you as to why Lee Kemp is the greatest ever.
I might not win that debate, but I'll play the
card like I'm not embarrass myself. I mean, Leekemp and
late to this day. I mean, Lee's like pushing seventy
or seventy years old. I mean, the guy could be
my dad. I wouldn't mess with Lee Kemp with a tank.
I mean, Leekekemp is still an absolute machine.

Speaker 4 (01:26:00):
Yeah yeah, so yeah, and I would I would agree,
you know, and just you know, was a referee decision
away from being a four time yes, you know, a
boycott away from being our first Olympic.

Speaker 3 (01:26:12):
Champ, first three time world champion. You know yeah, I
think he definitely.

Speaker 4 (01:26:19):
And his personality kind of lends itself because he's not
a look at me, look at me, look at me
type guy. You know, he's the guy you know, similar
you know Chris Campbell. Like they go and they do
their work and they go and they move on, you know,
and they don't do it for the for the accolades.

Speaker 3 (01:26:34):
They don't do it for they do it because they
want to be the best.

Speaker 4 (01:26:36):
So I think that that's something that truly separates Lee
from a lot of people because you wouldn't know it,
right if you walked in and you saw him there.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
Nice died, I mean just always. I mean I've never
really heard Lee, and I've bet that the privilege privilege
to talk to him a few times, done some broadcasts.
I mean, he's about as cool as a guests like
he is stays right here. I mean, Lee's Lee's the
guy like I would say, Lee Kemp is one of
ten guys in the world that rolls out of bed
and he's just got it. I mean even at his age.

(01:27:08):
I mean, the guy's just cool. I mean, Lee COM's
just a cool cat. Or sure, final question for you, Carrie,
how would you finish this sentence? I believe how would
you finish that?

Speaker 1 (01:27:24):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:27:25):
Man, there's so much I can go with that.

Speaker 5 (01:27:29):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:27:30):
I believe that we are all better off if we
serve more. That's that's a foundation. I believe in service.
And you know, if we all would serve a little
bit more, I think we'd all be better off.

Speaker 2 (01:27:43):
Man, you never disappoint care I mean, that's a that's
a pretty tough question. I mean, it's it's funny when
I do these podcasts, most questions I ask. If somebody
asked him to me, I'd sit there and I'd be like,
I'd sit there for forty seconds and have no idea
how to answer it. But anyways, that was great. I
believe it would be we would be better off if
we all serve more. That's a great, A great way

(01:28:03):
to end it. Harry. You need to write a book.
You need to write a book. This was awesome and
I really appreciate, uh the time. It's it's been great
getting to know you from you know, my days with
the Big ten Network and you were at Maryland and uh,
you're one of the great guys in this sport. And
I really appreciate it. So thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:28:24):
Thank you. I really appreciate it.