Journey of the Lost pt. 6😈

This is the end…

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:18):
The company to come if I thought I brought it
to fructing brother satonic hos my braid my maintain number
the third day the three main thing.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
From my own name?

Speaker 3 (00:31):
What is.

Speaker 4 (00:34):
I this a from not a pastor?

Speaker 2 (00:39):
I tell a feel something? What person to really think
it is?

Speaker 3 (00:45):
This?

Speaker 4 (00:45):
Don't maybe have to advise to a.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
First last one being that there's nothing type of front myself.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Who's the blast of religious.

Speaker 4 (00:57):
To say such thing? Please telling gor something for.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Dennis Lee your fucking and something that say would lead
I mean risk one is about now I hit the ground,
run not the rest.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
I tell her see yourself, I can see yet the
week of capacity is turning.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
The second pemics in the sea. What energy I'll say,
what not? If not w person? Get the man a man?

Speaker 1 (01:26):
What the fuck is the MASSI so pela technically definitely
can be a level. I'm constantly when them my brothers,
the les out of adult the moment stuffing the brother.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
But they don't tell when every yard and follow some
society lead.

Speaker 4 (01:41):
One is enough.

Speaker 5 (01:44):
I hit the ground, nay, not the rest.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
I tell the pel some.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
One is enough now I hit the crown right.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Not a rasta.

Speaker 4 (02:01):
I said, I feel something. You just try to bring
my fide.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Walk down brag by me.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
It would make me out to me.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
The sad up if you like you that to me
one in the bunt.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
Down, if the felves will drag me down, so we
need to help out.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
You fucking bake me sick. That's what you told me,
sick one of the belt.

Speaker 6 (02:43):
Down, that the felf will drag me down, so we.

Speaker 4 (02:48):
Need to help down, just one of that fucking time
I let you buckle by by.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
What is a doctor? I just a ground by the ass,
not a breathdow. I tell a bit a st that.

Speaker 7 (03:29):
Why is a doctor?

Speaker 2 (03:31):
I get a ground by the ass, not a breakdown.

Speaker 8 (03:37):
I tell her feel so.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Bad and you try to break my fi.

Speaker 5 (03:45):
W you one died of bad by me around you'll
make me out s be the tag.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
If you don't want to do my batrue easy, you
play mom and take time t pads and just sh
time to fine to my braind you think, goddamn the

(04:21):
fut of me? So I go in with my dream
and myself back in and go there hard. I conso
bad the got in on the fott of me. Sokay,

(04:46):
So PA start to pre posit begin playing.

Speaker 4 (04:51):
Just think of your breakly think got them till.

Speaker 9 (04:54):
The penn man a basic I'm gonna take the be
a better person.

Speaker 4 (05:01):
If they said up and help them, I'm away.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
With myself upper that settle man. They got to be
a little bout so God said. Also friends poor strong

(05:43):
buck by.

Speaker 4 (05:53):
O friends starts no freem.

Speaker 9 (05:57):
Can't getting a real.

Speaker 6 (05:59):
Freemaby not guess there also bit si rearly about the village,
were not a bill, give no sablity in the same
ti that the said, it's.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
A lot of hell in.

Speaker 4 (06:39):
Anything.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
I don't have the will of its time, take no thing.
Can't we don't find of a.

Speaker 4 (07:00):
Fine break And they got out the fire of me.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
So I didn't.

Speaker 4 (07:14):
Right, so I.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Can win with bast in myself.

Speaker 9 (07:35):
I can't know the hard quest.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
Let us consume, got it guy on the fun of me.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
So I got to bring the pain the people talking

(08:24):
when they cousin saying tunity, look in the mirror, bring.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yourself and let the se Just let the pass break
the pain.

Speaker 4 (08:36):
There's all the people. But when the cousin you say,
you think you go, you think you toughing God, Trinity.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
Look in the mirror, bring yourself and let the DNA say,
just let them of the mind assist.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
And I watched the chances the same.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
But I'm not tasted like that. Only mind remiss. I've
been permitting medicine and put the money that true in
the can. It's not home my life.

Speaker 10 (09:02):
This is why it's do a guys, the play.

Speaker 4 (09:06):
It's not I lost my mind.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
But I hit myself before I can motivate the cript
for the life.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Let's designed.

Speaker 11 (09:14):
Chill us.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
I'm never the cowboys talked up. This is no accident, man,
it's not. It's consequent. It's not so I must repay
that them flow.

Speaker 9 (09:24):
I see the glass slope. We're both pain so but
god like.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
And game though it's all the same. Now who's to play?

Speaker 4 (09:52):
Bring yourself and the when they come saying you more,
you think you go ahead.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
So did the mirror, Bring yourself and let the dot
to see.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
Just let the doc say, be freaking your man, the
SA free and say damns the next extend.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
The motions come in terrible setting. Lesson came the whole time.
Cravees man. I'll look at you. The three next so wonderful.
But if us start your dust much want to do
why I have to chase my full life rather you
be willing to be resting, throw you needing what you
need to go, a little bit of a sweat and
set when you wouldn't just a drop.

Speaker 3 (10:33):
I'll just trust make your cream and liptid crimson bluehood
along your bed and preaching.

Speaker 4 (10:38):
My head, what did it be better?

Speaker 3 (10:39):
But I just like it sistanist.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
You know where from photo gifting, the coming and your
complinging and then you have the preaching. They're pushing your
flock frosted. You didn't have to sing the control to
just say your texerciz.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
Lady.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
The more so, what's it just to be wearing before?

Speaker 4 (11:00):
Just dont to start to kill yourself off in pty
dot until the got to.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Consumer, go fast.

Speaker 4 (11:05):
Give the pain the don't you don't got you when
they come to say it, don't think you wanted to
do something, going by it.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
Talk in the miror bring yourself and let.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
The dot see.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Just let the doctor see past.

Speaker 4 (11:19):
Give the pain before the donkey.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
Don't butt you.

Speaker 4 (11:22):
When they come to say you wanted to do something,
go and bring it in.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Talk in the mirror, bring yourself and let the DNA say.
Just let the domos.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Junior became a bourbon bruiser and abuser upon people who
could the point of being from their perception environmental spectrum
in twist the candor blast of them as venture and
the fact I'm not here the pleasures I'm controlled by
control combinations of concocted taxes. Quite and Mama, that's from
making you know, gets harder than I said. Copy this
lip with courbage must be set and then can't let

(13:06):
myself rate.

Speaker 4 (13:06):
In better than a pound of skin.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
They're going from you.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Pretend too gets foot when you rebuot two people, they
remake that the two. I'm rather boots the four and
up from passes and sufer so for passion my friends,
and get actions except parad.

Speaker 9 (13:22):
Of lead from another sheep in the flock.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
I'm not the bush brother, those who have not before
I have not till we hurt our good stop, Every
mic up will, every check.

Speaker 4 (13:31):
Out will crash like my voice was cold.

Speaker 12 (13:33):
Touch stands held change.

Speaker 9 (14:03):
The finers are going to make dollars.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
They can't jail.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
The spirits are hearing my slumbering at the frame fel.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
And equipment with the tools I need to succeed here.
And this is the mansion were under the majors. Don't
get mentioned. You have to supersede average and.

Speaker 9 (14:17):
Never accept progression.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
The fifth structed progression for so dudging opposition where you
know the chance to win a fee.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
When you begin to send you so when you can't
in the chamber, nor you can't talk to strangers, they
go to hold you back and put your reason danger
You champers brought to anger, but sucception.

Speaker 9 (14:33):
The brates prepaid to amy.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
They said, who said they wake up? I'll reach my
hand down for help.

Speaker 9 (14:39):
So my advice have no friends, only family.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
He associated coutor coaching your kid's success.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
The tide of the.

Speaker 8 (14:46):
Neutral backing dack so kill me, such a small sh
continued to sell yes, so.

Speaker 13 (15:14):
Downs frost, to keep myself.

Speaker 5 (15:30):
Normal and slow downs friend from the songs I keep my.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Nom and slow.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
The billions of dollars that went into Gaza were largely
used by him as leaders to enrich themselves to build
an incredibly elaborate terrorist infrastructure throughout Gaza, and the misconception
was Jama's leadership were happy with just being corruped.

Speaker 7 (17:19):
The terrible hand of Iran is behind Hamas and his baller.
Iran has absolutely no compunctions about sacrificing every single Palestinian
to the court.

Speaker 3 (17:27):
What I possible response could Israel have except to.

Speaker 7 (17:30):
Roll over and what submit?

Speaker 3 (17:32):
That's not an option an army that fights by the
laws of war, which the IDEF does, the civilized army
seeks to minimize the civilian casualties. When an army like
that encounters an army that not just desires death for
its enemy, that desires death for the people it purports
to govern. This thing of the ecstasy in bringing death.

(17:57):
It's a death cult, a cult that literally worked's death.

Speaker 7 (18:15):
Hey, everybody, so I'm talking today to Douglas Murray, who
just wrote this book on democracies and death cults, Israel
and the Future of Civilization.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
That's this.

Speaker 7 (18:29):
We basically walked through the book chapter by chapter. It's
relatively short book, although it doesn't lack in intensity. What
happened October seventh when Habbas invaded Israel? What I saw
Douglas's account of his sojourn through Israel in the aftermath
of the catastrophe, How the world turned. We discussed the

(18:51):
protests primarily originating on university campus as much to their
eternal shame, the disconnect the fact that the propaganda exercise
and what would you say that the zeitgeist of the
West was such so that Israel was demonized almost immediately
after the attack for daring to defend itself and then

(19:13):
Douglas's conclusion from defeat into victory.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
Well, that's where the conversation got a little bit more.

Speaker 7 (19:21):
Theological, possibly an inevitability when talking about the existence of
good and evil. We discussed Douglas's observations that the Israelis
have been very successful at pushing forward a truly pro life,
pro abundance ethos, and the consequence for their thriving, for

(19:42):
their resilience in the face of really insuperable opposition, and
the meaning of that for hope, not only in Israel.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
But in the West in general.

Speaker 7 (19:52):
And I hope we most desperately need in these strangest
of all times, join us for that. So I read
your book on Democracies and death Cults, Israel and the
Future of Civilization. Yeah, it's pretty rough read in like
five different dimensions. It's brutal and unnerving and like terribly relevant,

(20:20):
and not merely merely because of the situation in Israel.
So I think what we should do first is I'm
going to ask you questions about each chapter. It's a
short book. There's five chapters. It starts with what happened,
and there's questions everyone has. How did the Israeli security
forces miss this? How could something like this happen? What

(20:42):
did happen? Who was responsible? So let's start by laying
that out. What happened on October seventh.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
What happened was that about four thousand or more terrorists
invaded Israel in the early morning. The Amaz Islamic you
had and other had his groups in Gaza started firing
hundreds and hundreds of rockets at about six thirty in
the morning, almost exactly six thirty in the morning. So
air raid sirens went off across the country. But then

(21:12):
something and sadly, that's kind of usual in Israel. It's
quite common to have air raid sirens, particularly in the south,
has been for twenty years. What became clear was very
unusual was that across multiple parts of the Gaza Israel border,
thousands of terrorists broke in. They broke down the fences,

(21:34):
they broke down they went to the checkpoints where gas
and workers would come through each day and where aid
lorries and indeed commerce occurred, They went to those crossings
as well, attacked the soldiers, overwhelmed them in quite a
lot of places. It was a religious holiday, it's the
holiday of Simcaptora and it and so a lot of

(21:54):
people were at home with their families. It was fifty
years to the day since the Young Pole War when
Israel's Arab neighbors invaded in a surprise attack as well,
So you might say, well, how come it's a surprise.
That was one of the things as soon as I
got to Israel straight after seventh one of the things

(22:16):
I was trying to find out was what the hell
went wrong? Because the Israelis have always had, certainly since
ninety's only three are sort of invulnerability. It's not true,
of course, but they were seen to be invulnerable by
many of their neighbors, certainly possible to catch by surprise,
impossible to catch by surprise. So what I call the

(22:38):
Fouderization of Israel, the sort of idea that it's that
eyes in the sky everywhere, nothing that can be done
that could surprise them, And that wasn't the case. Massive
amounts of the security apparatus of Israel failed and as
were all so very very clever. They've done a lot
of reconnaissance, using sadly guards and workers in Israel to

(22:58):
do the reconnaissance. To be said, in the months and
years ahead of the seventh they knew how to take
down things like communications, They knew how to take down
the security apparatus at the border. And by the time
that hundreds and then thousands of people were flooding into
Israel invading, they were going community by community through the south,

(23:23):
village by village they're called kibbutz, small communities of sometimes
a few hundred, sometimes a thousand people, and these were
peaceful communities, farming communities, and they started to go house
by house through these communities, massacring the people inside, kidnapping

(23:45):
as well. They came across, of course, because they managed
to do the invasion not just by land, but by
sea and also by air in hang gliders. They managed
to come into the dance party, the Nova Party. Thousands
of young people were dancing in the early morning. And

(24:06):
there's a debate about whether or not they the terrorists
knew that they were going to get these really easy
pickings of unarmed young people dancing in the morning, but
whether it was luck or design they managed to get
to the party and came in on military jeeps and
trucks and motorcycles and started massacring their way through the

(24:29):
young people in the early hours of the morning. There
were a lot of questions I asked about what went
wrong on the Israeli side. There's a lot to find
out about, and some of the answers I think I've
come to. But although many people in their homes who
I spoke to, in the hospitals and in the communities
in the aftermath of the seventh said the same thing

(24:50):
to me. The thing they said was that they'd told
their children as they were hiding in the bomb shelters,
as their homes were on fire and they could hear
people at the door trying to bring again. They said
that they telled their children, you know, don't worry if
the army will be here in moments. And it wasn't.
But it didn't fail entirely. There were some army in

(25:12):
the area who put up a very good fight, and
some of the army managed to get down fast. Some
elite units managed to get to the south swiftly and
had very very intense firefights. But one of the other
things had happened was that there are a lot of
people who I described Arab Drews, Jews, Israelis, who were

(25:33):
what I call self starters, just people who realized that
everything was going wrong. The country had been invaded, it
was war, and who through some extraordinary metal or insight
or whatever, sometimes just information somebody who happened to know
somebody in one of the communities in the south, who
were saying, you know, we're on fire, were just hurtled

(25:56):
to the scene and save lives. And that's why I
say that the morning of seventh was a story of
catastrophic evil from Hamaz and islavigy had and indeed the
Gazan civilians who came in to join in the raping
and the stealing and the kidnapping. By the end of

(26:20):
the day, twelve hundred is ready were dead, many many
more injured, and two hundred and fifty taken hostage into Gaza.
By a proportion of population. If people were extrapolate that
out to America, it would be about forty four thousand
Americans killed in one day. Well, the hostage situation is

(26:40):
also and ten thousand Americans taken hostage. That's by proportion
of population. If you extrapolated that, it would be ten
thousand Americans being dragged out of their homes and taken
into enemy territory by terrorists. But the story was first
of all the evils that Hamas committed that day. Secondly

(27:04):
in the suffering that they imposed. Secondly, of course, the
failure of much of the security auparatus in Israel, from
which lessons will have to be learned, and not just
by Israel but by her allies. But thirdly, as I say,
it's also the story of extraordinary people rising to this
terrible moment and doing unbelievably heroic things. I tell a

(27:26):
lot of the stories of people. For instance, there's a
someboe who's become a friend called Nimrod, who hurtled south
in his car. He had been in the army, was
called back to base by his commander, but by that
point Nimrod was driving south and he may as to
pick up a gun on the way, a single revolver
with I think eight rounds of ammunition, went through every

(27:48):
military checkpoint and just he said he didn't see a
life alive Israeli till the early afternoon, but when he did,
he fought and killed many terrorists. There are other people,
like there was a young man at the party I
mentioned the book whose girlfriend I met, who had realized
the situation, managed to get a car out of the party.

(28:10):
The terrorists were massacring everyone as they came out by car,
so they were shooting the cars. So then there was
a logjam. But this young man needs to find a
way out on another route, and he took four or
five young people in the car, drove them thirty minutes,
dropped them off, came back, took another car full of
young people, drove again, took them back. Every time they

(28:33):
said to him, don't go back again. It's hell, it's death.
But he kept doing it, and then the last time
he did it, he was killed. But there are lots
of terrible stories from the day that I recount. But
as I say, it also seems to me to be
important to credit the people who survived and who didn't,

(28:54):
who showed unbelievable heroism.

Speaker 7 (28:58):
It didn't really surprise me. I suppose that there were
security lapses. I mean, if you're dealing with an enemy
that's absolutely committed, the probability that over some long span
of time they're going to find a way through your defenses.
How is that not one hundred percent if everything isn't

(29:19):
locked down and there's any semblance of freedom whatsoever. So
the explanation you offered about what the mythical status of
Israeli in vulnerability seems to me to be the most
effective explanation.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
That and one other thing, which is which was what
was known as the conception, which I spoke about with
military and other political leaders. It's a very interesting thing.
The conception was effectively well, it was obviously a terrible mistake,
but was a belief in some of the security structure
infrastructure in Israel. But Hamaz were effectively like so many

(29:56):
terrorists and radical movements throughout history, that they had been
misgoverning the Gaza effectively since Israel withdrew in two thousand
and five. But they've stolen billions of dollars of international aid.
All the leaders of Hamas were billionaires thanks to the Canadian, American, European,
British players.

Speaker 7 (30:17):
Seriously, well done for us, Yeah, that's for sure quite something.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
Taxpayer funds the billions of dollars that went into Gaza
were largely used by Hamas leaders to enrich themselves to
build an incredibly elaborate terrorist infrastructure throughout Gaza, miles and
miles of underground tunnels, very very elaborate systems, some effectively
crawl spaces, others large enough to drive military vehicles for

(30:41):
one end of Gaza to the other. And they built
that whole infrastructure over the eighteen years or so that
they governed Gaza. And that was the other way in
which they used their money. But the conception, which turned
out to be a misconception, was that part of the
security apparatus in Israel believed that Hamas leadership were happy

(31:03):
with just being corrupt. They were living in luxury, you know,
penthouse was sufficient, rather like the Soviet Union, and by
the eighties, you know, the leaders didn't believe it anymore.
They just wanted to drink and have whatever they could
in the time they had.

Speaker 7 (31:21):
And hedonistic materialism Trump's fanatical, exact fanatical level, and of
course quite the theory.

Speaker 3 (31:27):
Yeah, and many times in history that has turned out
to be true. A lot of revolutionary movements have done that.
But this turned out to be completely wrong. In the
case of the Hamas leadership. They wanted to enrich themselves
and they wanted to do what they said they were
going to do, which was to annihilate the Jews, And

(31:50):
if you look, why not have both? They managed to
try to have both. But if you look at, for instance,
one of the central figures of the book, Sinnoir Sinoa,
one of the leaders of Hamaz, who'd been in an
Israeli jail until twenty eleven for killing Palestinians with his
own hands, literally throttling them with his own hands and

(32:12):
with a confus.

Speaker 7 (32:13):
The one who had such a remarkable obituary in the
New York Times, if I remember correctly.

Speaker 3 (32:17):
One of many. Yeah, they Yakjia Sinowa was a true psychopath,
and I'd known about him for years. A lot of
people who started the region had he was a what
would have been called a true believer. After he'd been
released in a prisoner exchange for one Israeli soldier who

(32:39):
they'd kidnapped in the late two thousands, After Sineoa was
exchanged and by the way, having had his life saved
by an Israeli doctor in prison, Sinowa went back to Gaza,
seized back control of Hamaz, said repeatedly in public statements
that he wanted Hamas to go in to Israel and

(33:00):
tear the hearts out of the bodies of the Jews
on the seventh. He took his best shot at it,
and it turned out that what Cinnoir said he wanted
to do, he did.

Speaker 7 (33:14):
There is nothing you'll do in life that's more challenging, difficult,
and rewarding than being a parent. Nothing with greater highs
er lower lows. You have little kids for a very
short period of time. It is a major mistake not
to notice that and not to appreciate it that.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
We're dealing with a pattern of misbehaviors at our son,
who's three years old, whenever we want to leave the
house starts running away.

Speaker 7 (33:41):
We have to be places at a certain times.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
When a disciplinary issue arises, you need to make space.

Speaker 7 (33:46):
To master it.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
I have to not do what I thought I was
going to do for ten minutes to.

Speaker 7 (33:52):
Set this right with our thirteen year old throws tantrums
quite often when he doesn't get his way. We spoiled
the heck out of him.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
Boil a child, so to speak.

Speaker 7 (34:01):
You take away from them the opportunity to develop their
own competence by doing too many things for them. The
consequences of his abdication of thought is that other people
think for him, that's what will happen.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
Our daughter was bullied at her school. As this is happening,
our son turned to some substance abuse. Look for mood
changes and behavioral changes, and then you can.

Speaker 7 (34:26):
Tell your kid, Look, it might be an unpleasant conversation
that we have to have, but I'm not going.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
To let you.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
Be miserable and drift away.

Speaker 7 (34:42):
Discuss the disciplinary strategies. Discuss the rules, Discuss what it
is that you want from your child. Talk that through
so that you're the same person. The more effective you
are in laying out these disciplinary rules, the more they'll
like you. Rules consistently of applied with minimal force and

(35:02):
plenty of patience. You don't want to let your worry
destroy the pleasures of the moment. Just because children know
less about the world doesn't mean they're not paying attention,
and certainly doesn't mean that they're stupid. They're not stupid,
and they're watching.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
He did.

Speaker 7 (35:26):
And it's very common for people who are extremely malevolent
to tell you exactly what they're going to do and
then do it. Far more common than people think. And
the fact that people are blind to that, that reality
is that points to something that we'll have to discuss
in more detail this insistence by naive people in the
West that no such thing as malevolence exists. Right, All

(35:48):
perpetrators are victims until proven otherwise victims.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
We have victims we haven't understood yet than they've had
a bad childhood. Well, no doubt they did.

Speaker 7 (35:58):
But there's plenty of people who had bad childhoods who
don't turn into malevolent psychopaths. That's my observation. Yes, it's
definitely the case. Let's delve a little bit deeper into
what happened. I want to lay some propositions before you.
When October seventh made its presence known, the first thing

(36:19):
that occurred to me, and correct me if I'm wrong
about this, if I have some misapprehension. The terrible hand
of Iran is behind Hamas and Hispola. Iran has absolutely
no compunctions about sacrificing every single Palestinian to the cause

(36:40):
as brutal a fashion as possible to capitalize on the
public relations scandal that can be made of that. They've
got no feeling whatsoever for the Palestinians. They're pure cannon
fodder in the eternal war against the Great Satan and Israel, right,
the US and Israel. That seems appropriate. Okay, So what
the hell? I went to Oxford, you know, and the

(37:02):
first bloody thing that those halfwits asked me when I
was on stage was if I was happy about this
tweet I made on October eighth, which was give them
hell Net and Yahoo, which I paid quite the price for,
let me tell you. And although not so much a
price as many people have paid.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
Put it that way. And so.

Speaker 7 (37:23):
What's Israel to do when they're faced with a disposable people,
so to speak, that will be sacrificed at a moment's
noticed by their own leadership, by their own corrupt philosophy,
and by the Mullahs of Iran.

Speaker 3 (37:36):
What possible response could Israel have except.

Speaker 7 (37:39):
To roll over and what submit?

Speaker 3 (37:42):
Well, a lot of people would like them to do that,
of course, but that's not an option. There's a famous
story that Joe Biden tells us, actually a good story
for Joe Biden being Joe Biden, He's told it a lot,
but he when he was a young senator, he once
met go to May form a primary of Israel, deed,
the prime minister during the seventy three war, and she

(38:03):
famously said to Joe Biden when she was showing him around,
you know, you forget sands, Biden, we have a secret weapon.
And Biden thought that Golda Mayer was going to tell
him about Israel's nuclear project, and it is all hears
as what's your secret weapon? She said, we have nowhere
else to go. So anyone who thinks that rolling over

(38:27):
is a possibility for Israel's is simply somebody wants them
to be gone. What is clever about Hamaz and It's
back as in Iran and the Iranian Revolutionary government, is
that they know exactly how to put Israel in an
even more intolerable situation each time they attack. So, for instance,

(38:51):
they know that if you kidnap israelis one of the
absolutely central things of the fabric of Israeli society, as
with most Western societies, is you don't allow your citizens
to remain behind, just like you don't leave your soldiers behind.
That if you fall behind enemy lines, if you had

(39:13):
taken behind enemy lines, the state will do everything it
can to get you back. And that has been a
compact in Israel since the foundation in forty eight, and
a really central thing. So Hamas knew and I have
lots of testimony from people who, for instance, overheard terrorists
on the morning as they were lying dead or other things,

(39:35):
heard the terrorists that, for instance, the Nova party debating
which of the young girls they should shoot and which
they should kidnap. And you know, there were debates that
they might have had too many people, too many girls
to take back, for instance, but Hamaz did the kidnapping
knowing that to have two hundred and fifty Israelis in

(39:57):
captivity is to have an unb believable advantage over the
Israelis because they're going to have to come in. They're
going to try to save them, They're going to try
to rescue them. They'll exchange the exchange of terrorists sing
as happened recently, an exchange of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli

(40:18):
jails for committing acts of terrorism, preparing suicide vests, trying
to carry out bombings, and much more knife attacks. They
will exchange sometimes hundreds of those Palestinians for as happened
the other week, the coffins of two Jewish babies. So well.

Speaker 7 (40:38):
One of the things that's striking about your book is
your continued explication of the Pamas and his boler terrorists, psychopaths,
their willingness to exploit every element of human decency to
wage the most destructive possible of wars. The tunnels.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Let's go into that for a minute.

Speaker 7 (41:02):
So Gaza's eleven by eleven miles, approximately one hundred and
forty square miles three hundred and fifty miles of tunnels,
right longer than the London underground, which is.

Speaker 3 (41:14):
A stunning yes, fact, stunning fact, longer than London underground.
And as I joke to the British military friend, rather
better run.

Speaker 7 (41:23):
Six thousand entrances, many of them in the bedrooms of.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
Children, almost always were the tunnel entrances come up. They
come up in children's bedrooms, in houses throughout Gaza. They
come up inside mosques, but they come up inside hospitals.
Even in twenty fourteen the BBC acknowledge that the Hamas
leadership were coming up from tunnels underneath the Shifa Hospital,

(41:48):
which is one of their command headquarters. By the way,
all of that is, for anyone who cares about this,
completely against every law of war, the Geneva Conventions, every
convention of war is you are not allowed to fight,
You're not meant to fight in civilian clothing. You're not
meant to fight and fire from places of worship. You're

(42:12):
not meant to stockpile ammunition in hospitals, You're not meant
to make civilian homes targets. For reasons that our species
thought we all understood.

Speaker 7 (42:23):
Sufficiently, Victimized perpetrators have no reason to abide by any
standards for an argument, and.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
Of course, militarily, this is all to Hermas's enormous advantage,
because again they know that if there is a stockpile
of ammunition, or a terrorists in a or a tunnel
entrance or whatever in a civilian home, and even if
the Israelis tell all the locals to get out, the
world's media will say that Israel bombed or invaded a

(42:53):
civilian home. You're a hospital or a place of worship.
As a member of the Israeli none of those words.

Speaker 7 (42:59):
Have this meaning, none of them in Gaza, that they
do in the West.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
None at all. It's whenever it's reported that you know
that a hospital has been hit, it's usually reported in
the world's press as Hamas wants that the Israeli has
just decided to bomb a hospital, as if They're so evil,
these Israelis that they even bomb hospitals. There was a
member of the Israeli war Cabinet, Gadi Eisenkott, who I

(43:27):
quote in the book because he lost his son fighting
in Gaza in the aftermath of October the seventh, and
the next day he lost his nephew, also fighting in Gaza.
His nephew was killed because as Israelis were trying to
do this incredibly delicate military operation not to get back
the hostages, destroy the leadership of Hamas, and minimize any

(43:50):
possible civilian casualties. Gadi Eisenkott's nephew was fired upon from
a mosque by Jamaz terroritrists who gleefully opened fire on
him and his unit, and they were meant to be
sticking to the Hamaz were doing that. The Israelis were
trying to stick to the normal laws of conflict and

(44:11):
not just destroy the mosque, and so they lost soldiers.
This is another example of the way in which Hamaz
do this. Any normal society that valued the life of
their own civilians, like America, Britain Israel would if it
knew that it's people were going to come under bombardment
often do what the Israelis did in the South and

(44:35):
indeed across much of the country, which is you build
bomb shelters in every home, and you have bomb shelters
in every civilian area, and across the south of Israel,
that's the case as it is in the North because
being being shoved by Hesbula for twenty years. But only
in Gaza do you get a situation where and I

(44:55):
quote one of the Hamas leaders saying this in an
interview with Al Arabia last year, he's asked why he's
asked this. Hamas leaders asked by a friendly Arab journalist,
why why, if you say the civilian casualties in Gaza,
so hi, why can't you allow the civilians of Gaza
to shelter in your tunnel networks that you've built underneath Gaza.

(45:16):
And the Hamas leader says, but the tunnel system is
not for the civilians. The tunnel system is for our
fighters and for our weaponry. And the interviewer says, well,
who's to look after the civilians and he says the
international community.

Speaker 7 (45:31):
Right, Well, that's just testament to the fact that the
Palestinians are essentially cannon fodder for the eternal war against
against Israel and the United States.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
Yes, and it's even worse than that that. Of course,
an army that fights by the laws of war, which
the IDF does, like the American Army, like the British army,
makes mistakes for sure, like the American Army, like the
British army, but the fights by the laws of war.
When it encounters a terrorist army like this, the the

(46:08):
civilized army seeks to minimize the civilian casualties, as the
idea has done. And anyone who claims that it hasn't
just does not know what's been going on for the
last eighteen months and believes her master reports and believes
him as report, which which why would anyone ever believe
her master report? Yeah, it's it's it's I mean, why

(46:29):
go to a mass murderer to find out their account
of their actions, you know. But the point is is
that when when an army like that encounters an army
that not just desires death for its enemy, but desires
death for the people it purports the governor, and with
a kicker in it seeks death itself. This is a

(46:54):
realm of fanaticism and what I call it's it's a
death cult, a cult that literally worships death. The leadership
of Hamez, who I quote in the book, have for
decades boasted about the extent to which they love death,
embrace death. And one of the underlying things in this book,

(47:15):
as you know, which will come on to doubtless later,
but is what happens if a society that actually values
life encounters a death cult that worships and glories in
death for its foes, but also for itself. And we
have spring and death. We have seen such movements throughout history.

(47:38):
We have seen them, but most of the world has
forgotten about them. And I would argue that Israel, to
a great extent, forgot about them until six point thirteen
in the morning on October seventh, twenty twenty.

Speaker 7 (47:49):
Three, possessed by the spirit of King. Yes, that accounts
for some of the anti Semitism too. So let me
run something by you. I want to flip to how
the world turned. So it is the case that when
people develop post traumatic stress disorder, they relatively rarely develop

(48:10):
it in response to a tragedy. Even if it's a
painful tragedy, they tend to develop it. One risk factors
being naive, seeing the world through rose colored glasses. Let's say,
assuming goodwill on everyone's part, including your own, and then
encountering a situation, sometimes a situation that you're deeply involved in,

(48:33):
where malevolence raises its head. The West is very sheltered,
and I would say blind to malevolence, blind to its existence.
In the academic realm, there's no discussion of good and evil.
Evil is an archaic term, and malevolence is a consequence
of trauma, right, a consequence of privation.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
And that's simply not the case. And it's now.

Speaker 7 (48:58):
I read a book a while back, and I don't
remember which one it was, unfortunately, but it described the
erasure of the Byzantine Empire from the Western imagination. I
was a relatively old person before I really had any
sense at all of the extent of the Byzantine Empire
or the catastrophe of its demolition, and the author of

(49:21):
this particular book believed that the defeat of the Byzantine
Empire by the Islamic world and maybe by the psychopaths
of the Islamic world was so traumatic to the West
that we just erased it from our historical memory. And
then it seems to me, Douglas that something like that

(49:43):
is going on right now. I mean, look, let's talk
about the universities for a moment. Now, there's a fair
bit of pathology in the university.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
Is a fair bit. It's like talk to bottom.

Speaker 7 (49:53):
They're absolutely encourageable as far as I'm concerned, especially the
IVY leagues. They should be ashamed of themselves, should be
deprived of all funding as far as I'm concerned. In
any case, the protests that emerged there and all across
the world you detail out and with some great sadness
and amazement. But I think part of it is that

(50:17):
it's not within the purview of the people who are
protesting to replace their theory that the victims are uprising
with the notion that a malevolent cult of death that
worships sadistic suffering and annihilation exists. It's too far outside

(50:39):
their worldview. Now, there's more to it than that, Because
Iran is you saw that the Iyatolda, this is the.

Speaker 3 (50:46):
Most amazing thing.

Speaker 7 (50:47):
The idol it itself congratulated the American universities, or the
universities of the UK for that matter too.

Speaker 3 (50:54):
He can I say to the Western the students for
joining the anti colonial struggle. Yeah, not mentioning to the
students that, of course, he I told Hameni had ordered
the gunning down of their contemporaries across the streets of
Tehran in two thousand and nine, so many other act
when Iranian students come out on the streets to protest
against the actual oppression of the Islamic Revolutionary government in Tehran.

(51:16):
I tl Hameni, who congratulates the Western students who uprising
shoots the students who uprise in Iran.

Speaker 7 (51:22):
But that's a detail, It's an ignorable detail, clearly. Then
there's another issue that seems to be operating at the universities.
A disproportionate number of the protesters or the protester puppets,
you might say, are young women, right, And so there's
something to that too, because it's in the nature of

(51:45):
young women, I would say, to adopt the mien of
sympathy towards victimization and fail to see the predators lurking
underneath the underneath the rocks. Let's say, women haven't traditionally
fought wars. They're not necessarily equipped to identify actual enemies.

(52:06):
Their proclivity is sympathy, and that's exacerbated in the case
of naivity, and there's a great intermixture of pride in
that too, and the female sympathy can what would you say,
overcome the pathology of victimization. That's eve as far as
I'm concerned, clutching the serpent to her breast. And the

(52:26):
universities have become feminized to a great degree. And then
there's this incredibly deep in people overall. I think in
the West have no idea how pathological the universities have become.
The social sciences, the humanities run on an oppressor victim narrative,

(52:49):
and everything is seen through that light. And you can
learn the tenets of the oppressor victimizer narrative in five minutes,
and then you can explain the world.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
And by the way, a very healthy dose of narcissism
thrown into the whole thing, which is that to extent
that any students of American universities get taught anything about
the Middle least they will be taught Edward Saide's theory
claim of Orientalism, which of course is a claim that is,
by Side's own admission, spilt way beyond even the claims

(53:21):
that he made in his book The sides insight, if
you can call it, that was that when Westerners approached
the Arab and Muslim world, they did so through the
eyes of Westerners, which is an observation so banal that
only the Academy could extrapolate out a whole course from it.

Speaker 7 (53:40):
I mean, what eyes, especially especially without giving some due
credit to the fact of Western eyes.

Speaker 3 (53:46):
Well if people like I mean, when Napoleon goes to Egypt,
one of the things he does is to order a
massive catalogue of all of the riches and treasures of
ancient Egypt, a catalog which Egypt itself had not produced
to that point. And one of the people who Napoleon
gets on to do this, and who founds the Cairo Museum,
by the way, ends up also being one of the

(54:09):
people who breaks the code of the Rosetta Stone, giving
the lost languages back to the region. But anyway, we
don't need.

Speaker 7 (54:16):
To know that another detail.

Speaker 3 (54:18):
It's another detail. Why do you need to know that
that that when you can say this is what science.

Speaker 7 (54:23):
Read westernize who defined ancient artifacts as treasures to begin with, right, right,
then it becomes self evidence. Right.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
But just consider the enormously advantageous aspect of narcissism to
this mix, because the narcissistic thing that said helped to
give American and other Western students was nothing in the
world happens unless you in the West make it happen.
You make it so the Palestinians, like all the Arabs,

(54:55):
the Muslim world, the developing world as a whole, does
nothing of its own volition. It can't even make mistakes
on its own dime. It's you that made them do it.
What did we in America do to cause this is
the lens the only lens through which an American student
will be taught to look at the world. Why is

(55:17):
this happening in China? What did we do to China?
Will be the way? But everything is interpreted, so this
is just not fit for purpose for understanding the world.
But it's hugely narcissistic because, among other things I mean,
and you can see this in the spilling out of
protests across America and other Western campuses. One of the

(55:38):
things I say at one point of the book is
what level of delusion and narcissistic delusion do you have
to be in to think that you at the University
of Columbia or Berkeley or Yale or Princeton or Oxford
can dictate war policy two continents away. Who who was

(56:04):
waiting at your opinion? Exactly? It's an extension encounter terrorism
strategy in densely built up urban areas where when you
say that your university is central to the funding of
Israel's war, what do you mean? What do you mean?
What you at your campus? Your campus is at the

(56:25):
center of the war. Really, Really, you're at the center
of world events by sitting in the middle of your
quadrangle in a tent.

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Speaker 3 (57:51):
Let me put a twist on that tell me what
you think.

Speaker 7 (57:54):
So it seems to me that the Pride story is slightly,
perhaps more complicated than the tale that you laid out.
So there's this initial presumption of Western centrality.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
Let's say that you pointed to.

Speaker 7 (58:08):
But see one of the things I saw at the
University of Toronto, shortly before it became impossible to me,
impossible for me to work, there was this insistence by
my colleagues, but there was no moral pathway, no more
productive and moral pathway that a student could be invited
to take than the pathway of protests. Okay, so now

(58:30):
the prot scene. It's not only that the students are
are characterized by this overweening certainty in Western.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
What would you say, dominance.

Speaker 7 (58:44):
Yes, yes, it's that by so they see, they posit
this malevolent force that's centered in the West, but then
they position themselves as adversaries to that force. And that's
the prideful that's the pride twist. Well, it's like, we're
so horrible here in the West, but I'm so good

(59:04):
that even though I'm part of the West, I'll do
everything i can to oppose that. And then they're by
the idiot professors.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
I quote a student of Columbia who described himself as
a first generation, low income student, first in his family
to go to university, certainly the first to go to Columbia.
You would have thought most of us would have thought, Damn,
I'm lucky. But he describes how straight away he was
taught what he described as the rich history of protests

(59:35):
of Columbia and remembered thinking, when it kicks off again,
I want to be at the center of it. Now.
You know, I don't know about you, but I think
student days should be used for many things. But the
idea that you should make yourself central to the protest
movements of your time as your demonstration of virtue in

(59:59):
your years of study is well, that's taught. That's taught.
That young man was taught. Then it's because it's by
the culture. By the culture, it's because of the professors
that totally pointless studies, institutes and other things, and some
sometimes in serious programs are actually telling their students this.

(01:00:19):
I the number of former faculty of Columbia that I've
spoken to and some presents still who say this to me.
We were teaching this for years. This was all being
boiled up by us by the faculty for years ahead
of this. But but the other thing that happens then,
just to add to your or if on the on
the sin of it, is that, as you know, one

(01:00:42):
of the conclusions I come to about this is that
this has been projection on a vast scale. And it
really took talking with quite a lot of psychologists and
psychiatrists about this phenomenon in the last eighteen months to

(01:01:02):
work this out. There's this rule, as you know, that
I go into in the book that I've mulled on
a lot that I got from the great Soviet Jewish right,
Vastly Grossman, who appears intermittently throughout the book, and Vastly
Grossman had this terrific dictum in the middle of Life
and Fate where he says, tell me what you accuse
the Jews of, I'll tell you what you're guilty of.

(01:01:25):
This is and this is unbelievably relevant again and again
and again. You know, the Uranian Revolutionary government says that
the Jewish state is a colonialist enterprise. The Iranian Revolutionary
government is colonizing them at least since nineteen seventy nine.

Speaker 7 (01:01:39):
But there's nothing that colin vote Islam. Oh no, I mean,
that's only the fastest growing empire in the history of
the world.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
And as you know, Mohammed when he spread Islam only
did through by persuasion and kind of right, and that
still obtains today. We'll get back to that. But every time,
every time this mold on this subject in recently is
that the Grossman's rule absolutely applied people using the Jewish

(01:02:07):
State just as they have the Jewish people throughout history
as a projection mechanism for their own failings. And the
place where I realized this became very relevant to the
American University and the Western universities was what were the
things students were accusing the Jewish state of genocide, ethnic cleansing,

(01:02:30):
white supremacy. So you always laugh at that long but
that's a good one. But anyway, ethnic cleansing, genocide, white supremacy,
the various sins that they will always lob at Israel.

(01:02:51):
And they were throwing this at Israel from October the seventh,
as they had in the years before, but they really
got a push on it after that. And I was
thinking throughout this period, as I saw the protests in
the West, I thought, why are these terms so familiar?
The conclusion I came to was and it actually was
a follow on from my previous book, The War on

(01:03:12):
the West, where I talked about what was being taught
to a generation, and as you know, one of the
things I said in that book was we are teaching
young people born in the twenty first century in America
and the rest of the West that they are guilty
by being by dint of being born here. You are
guilty of colonialism because some of your ancestors may have

(01:03:34):
engaged in colonialism. You're guilty of genocide. You carry the
guilt of genocide because three hundred years ago, people who
may not be ancestors of yours, but looked like you
did this thing and so on a song. And I
said in the War on the West that this was
a very, very dangerous thing because it's a mechanism of
guilt with no alleviation, mechanism for forgiveness. There's no way

(01:03:57):
to alleviate the guilt. You're just being told you're guilty,
and you're stuck with it. Now, you can see the
protests as a manifestation of that attime to xpiate exactly.
One of the conclusions I come to is this protest
movement has been projection on a vast scale. The students

(01:04:17):
accuse Israel of things that the students have been told
that they themselves are guilty of.

Speaker 7 (01:04:23):
That see Israel's as the as the vanguard of Western
colonialism exactly, it's the whole.

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):
And this is a giant mechanism of projection. Which is
why I say, when it comes to these protesters, particular
students in the West, I said, tell me what you
accuse the Jewish state of I'll tell you what you
were taught you're guilty of. Right cought that you're guilty of.

Speaker 7 (01:04:47):
Yeah, And no wonder that people rebel against that, because
how the hell else are they going to xpiate the guilt?

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
Absolutely, but here is a way. And with the added
thing that the Iranian proxies across the West, the Katari
money that has flooded through Western universities, not least American
universe propagandists, the organized, the organized movements. Is not an
accident that the same movement crops up everywhere with exactly

(01:05:14):
the same slogans that you know, is it generic that
students at Princeton again the other week are chanting glory
to our martyrs. This is totally imported propaganda just placed
over them, and they these adults repeat and repeat and repeat.
But this, all of this has been done so expertly

(01:05:38):
because it plays to these psychological weakness that exists in
so many people in the West who have been taught
their guilt have been taught culpability with no means of
getting rid of it.

Speaker 7 (01:05:49):
But here, here you have a culpability with no virtue.
That's one of the most striking examples of that, I
believe is you know, I was probably forty bloody years
old before I knew who Wilberforce was. You know, in
my eternal shame, it's all part and parcel of the

(01:06:11):
message that what the western colonial powers were responsible for slavery,
when the truth of the matter is that the Great Britain,
in particular, what waged war for what one hundred and
seventy five years on the high Seas to eradicate slavery
for the first time in.

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):
History, were not only eradicated, we the British, not only
eradicated it in the British Empire, but eradicated it on
all the high Seas and lost thousands of sailors throughout
the nineteenth century. And every British household paid far more
in household goods throughout the nineteenth century because we weren't
trading with slave traders. Compare that, by the way, to

(01:06:47):
the fact that there's reparations. Yes, at the same time,
the Islamic world was glorious, gloriously still slaving away, and
much of the Islamic world still does, by the way,
across Africa and the Middle East is still doing slaving.

Speaker 7 (01:07:04):
So repentantly, unrepented, apology whatsoever, but positively beaming that at
the same time they can teach people in the West
that Western has born in the twenty first.

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
Century are guilty of eighteenth century slaving.

Speaker 13 (01:07:21):
So this is this is.

Speaker 3 (01:07:23):
An extraordinarily dangerous moment, It seems to me because the
ground that you and I and others have identified for
many years of deracination of populations, demoralization of populations, stripping

(01:07:45):
away of all legitimate heroes, or ignorance of them, whether
it's Wilberforce or or Churchill or anyone else, that the
stripping away of the heroes, stripping away of the national
story in country. Are the country across the west leaves
this vacuum. Canada leading the pack, Canada perhaps the world leader.

(01:08:07):
In Australia New Zealand, they're doing very, very well. But
into this vacuum something was always going to step and
there is no reason why American or other Western universities
or streets because it's not just at higher education institutions.
It's you know, Union Station in New York shut down
again the other week by hundreds of people chanting for

(01:08:30):
intofada into Fara terrorism in the center of New York.
What it is is, there's no reason why this death
cult ideology should find itself worshiped in the Free West,
apart from the fact that we have allowed ourselves to
be deracinated and demoralized and allowed the weakest and most

(01:08:51):
pernicious imaginable ideology to step into the vacuum.

Speaker 7 (01:08:55):
There's an assortment of weak and appalling ideologies, most particularly
the idea that the world can be explained in consequence
of the oppressor victim.

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
Narratives, oppress or oppressed colonizer.

Speaker 7 (01:09:09):
Colonized proletariat, bourgeoisie. It's the same bloody story.

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):
There's another there's another strand to that, by the way,
which I gave an electronist in New York last year
for the New Criterion, which is, even if somebody does
use the term evil in the West these days, and
people are very uncomfortable about using it because of its
theological framework. If you do hear the word evil use
in the West in the Western press. I give examples

(01:09:35):
of this, what will people describe it as? Almost inevitably
they will resort to Hannah Aaron's lamentable definition of the
banality of evil. And if anyone is interested, they can
go and read the essay online that I wrote about
against Hannah Aaron's appalling, misguided and provably wrong theory on

(01:09:57):
the banality of evil, which she applied to Eichmlan, the
leading Nazian and architect of the Holocaust. The facade is banil.
There was nothing about Eichmann that was banal. He just
fooled Hannah Arrand but she through her half baked theory.

(01:10:18):
That's the last bit of the use of evil I noticed.
In the public realm, something will happen, like, for instance,
when a drummer Lee Rigby, was beheaded in broad daylight
on the streets of London in twenty thirteen. The next
day a columnists at the Telegraph, a conservative newspaper in
the UK, described the act as banal. The Guardian, it

(01:10:39):
means it didn't happen, he said. It was a sort
of yes, yes, exactly. It's hard to see decapitation as
banal unless you just have no other.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Word.

Speaker 3 (01:10:52):
To use in the environment of evil. But one of
the things I want readers to come away from Mond
Democi's Death Cult thinking about is exactly this. Maybe there
is such a force in the world, Maybe evil really
does descend, maybe it actually exists.

Speaker 7 (01:11:11):
So when did you decide? When did you come to
that conclusion? Like what and is that a theological conclusion?
I mean, when you start talking about the landscape of
good and evil, you're perilously close to the religious world
or you're in it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
You know, when I dealt with my.

Speaker 7 (01:11:27):
Clinical clients that were severely hurt by malevolent actors, the
language became religious because there was no other way of
discussing it, and that that had nothing to do with
my imaginations. There was no language they could use to
describe what happened to them that wasn't profound enough to

(01:11:51):
touch on the religious because the depth of horror was
so great that no other language suffice.

Speaker 3 (01:11:57):
Well, I would say one of those and you know
this well from your work on the Bible. But the
one of the things I suppose it would stand out
as a definition of evil is is doing it knowingly
and gleefully, gleefully and glory.

Speaker 7 (01:12:16):
There's a there's a level underneath that. It's doing it knowingly.

Speaker 3 (01:12:20):
And gleefully to spite God. Right, it's it. And you
don't understand evil.

Speaker 7 (01:12:28):
I don't think you understand evil if you don't understand
it as the ultimate in rebellion against the fact of
existence itself, the spirit of existence. Well, hence dead fault.

Speaker 3 (01:12:39):
Well that's but then the layer underneath that is where
death is offered up as a form of worship. Now,
this is something the Western mind finds incredibly hard to understand.
Within the death cults within Islam, we have some understanding
about it. When this arrived is in the form of

(01:13:01):
Nazi fascism or Soviet communism some understanding, or Maoist communisms
even less understanding.

Speaker 7 (01:13:08):
But serial killing pathology.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
Serial killers, we could, we could, I think we still
might be able to identify Jeffrey Dahmer, you know, the
Yorkshire Ripper, as worshippers of death and suffering.

Speaker 7 (01:13:22):
Right, sadism, sadism taken to it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:25):
Imagine that with a theological framework around it, such as
the kind that jihadists have. This is why when you
ask where I why I sort of was mouling on this.
It was because of something I couldn't get out of
my head from the seventh onwards, which was that the

(01:13:47):
I've seen quite a lot of war and how people
act in war, and regard myself as relatively unshockable or
at least aware of the capacity of human evil. But

(01:14:07):
from the moment I started seeing the videos that Hamaz
took themselves on the morning, and I started seeing them
very early. I then saw an awful lot of them,
and then far more, even before going to the massacre
sides to myself, the hospitals and the morgues and some
but one of the things I could not get out

(01:14:29):
of my head was the glee, the sheer, ugiastic glee
of the terrorists, at least the Nazis tried to hide
their crimes. Well, this is this is the point I've
made that occasionally got me into trouble. You know there
are that it's not. What happened on the seventh was

(01:14:51):
as if for some hours in Treblinka the Nazis had
live streamed to the world what they were doing and
were proud of it and wanted everyone to know. And
then the university celebrated it. I quote a late friend

(01:15:12):
of mine early in the book, as you know, who
fled Nazi Germany a Nazi Austria in nineteen thirty eight,
and he said, towards the end of his life to
me and to a historian friend, he said that he
had spent his last years thinking, actually, maybe there was
a level of antisemitism even worse than the Nazis.

Speaker 11 (01:15:31):
Hell is the bottomless pit, you know, absolutely really, And
it required somebody who had fled Nazism and lost much
of his family to Nazism to be able to in
a way make that point.

Speaker 3 (01:15:43):
But the thing we don't need to get into the
competition of as it were, which is how people see it.
But it doesn't diminish anything but this this thing of
the ecstasy and death, ecstasy in bringing death. I quote

(01:16:03):
the young man who phones back to his family in
Gaza on a cell phone and says, father, father, I've
killed ten Jews in my own hands. I've killed ten Jews.
Get mother on the phone to turn onto what's that video?
I can show you the endless cries of Ala hu Akba, which,

(01:16:24):
as I said shortly after seventh is not something I
wanted to hear chanted on our streets. Much more knowing
this isn't simply an offering of prayer like the Lord's prayer.
And if Christians had in recent memory been massacring people
whilst screaming the Lord's prayer in ecstasy, I think the
Christians would have the decency to pipe down a bit

(01:16:46):
about shouting it in public squares en mass. But the
cry of al a w akhba that that we're forever
told is now is simply like it's just a prayer,
like saying seekile in America is just a quoting of German.
The use of alho wachba by the terrorists as a

(01:17:11):
removing a young man's head with a shovel or raping
girls and then killing them.

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Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
All you need a cover story for your sadism, Douglas and.

Speaker 7 (01:18:50):
The Well, the most effective cover story for the worst
acts of sadism is precisely the use of God's name
in vain, right, Because then you combine the worst possible sin,
which is demeaning of what's most high, with the worst
possible action with a gleeful delight in the suffering of others.

Speaker 3 (01:19:10):
And what do you get?

Speaker 7 (01:19:11):
You get, You get two for one if you're.

Speaker 3 (01:19:14):
On the side of the sadists.

Speaker 7 (01:19:15):
You know, when psychologists started to study non what would
you say, the manifestation of psychopathy and the normative population,
they identified three cardinal traits. To begin with, Machiavelianism use
of language for instrumental purposes. If I'm a Machiavelian, the
only reason I'm communicating with you is to gain something

(01:19:38):
only for me now, right, no communicative attent other than that, right,
So it's a false offering psychopathy, So that's parasitic parasitical predation, right,
And narcissism, the desire for unearned status. Okay, well that
was the dark triad, but they had to add SAYI

(01:20:00):
to it because those three things in combination appear to
inevitably lead.

Speaker 3 (01:20:05):
To satism, which is exactly that gleeful delight.

Speaker 7 (01:20:09):
And then once you've compiled those four demonic traits within you,
once you've turned yourself over to that spirit, why wouldn't
you claim that you were doing it in the name
of what's highest? How the hell else would you live
with yourself? How would you not stop your soul from shredding? Well,
and it is part of that satanic delight to take

(01:20:33):
what's highest and to subvert it most entirely.

Speaker 3 (01:20:37):
Yeah, they yes, this is these are bottomless pits, as
you say, Jordan, But there is something I think one
is say about the awareness of what you're doing is
being wrong to this extent that and still enjoying it

(01:20:59):
as a story idea. You're enjoy it because it's wrong, right,
That's part of that. And well also one with another layer,
which is that you have been taught that the people
you're doing this to are subhuman.

Speaker 7 (01:21:10):
Yeah, and you're pretty damn willing to learn it to
because boy, that gives you absolute license to.

Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
Do whatever the hell whatever possesses you want you to do.
There was one. There was There was a It was
a rather heavy elder quickly but rather heavy day when
I went in to see the Hamas terrorists that had
been captured alive, and one of them I recognize, and
that was a moment where I really did think again

(01:21:37):
about the nature of evil, and yes, it's hard not
to think of it in a theological context. In this
there was there was a a family who on the
seventh were in their home in a small community in
the south and the oldest boy, as a teenager was,

(01:21:57):
had already gone to the beach with friends, and the
land in craft of Hamaz came in and they killed
him and his friends, and then they went to the
community and they the father of the family was there
in the house and ran into the bomb shelter with
his two teenage sons whether I think the boys were
ten and twelve or thereabouts, and the terrorists came in

(01:22:20):
and the father, I've seen the video several times. It's
pretty gruesome, but the father takes his two sons into
the bomb shelter with him, and the Hamaz throw a
grenade in and the father threw himself onto the grenade

(01:22:42):
to save his sons. And they come out of the
shelters staggering, and both of their underwear and you know,
and one of them I had been blown out of
his socket and the other one had lost his hearing,
his ear was off. And this they come into the
main room the house, and again it's all on video,

(01:23:03):
and they're both completely disorientated. Of course, one of them
is saying, where's father and the other one is saying,
didn't you see him? You know? And then the terrorists
who killed their father walks into the room with a
klashnikov and just looks at the boys, goes to the fridge,

(01:23:25):
opens the fridge and gets out of diet coke and
start drinking it in front of them, and also later
asks where their mother. That's how you demonstrate that the
suffering is.

Speaker 7 (01:23:37):
Irrelevant with that casual that casual consumerist gesture is right,
and that what would you say, that perversion of hospitality.

Speaker 3 (01:23:48):
Yeah, so inevitably, yes, you get to the that you
get to the question of how does so many people
get taught this or encourag raised into this? And I
was very struck. It's very much in your wheelhouse. But
one of the reunions of the survivors of the Nova Party,

(01:24:09):
I got talking to a remarkable woman who was a
therapist who was working with them. And these were of
course all deeply, deeply traumatized young people who were you know,
have difficult time for the rest of their lives. But
there was a therapist who've been working with them, who
I spoke with, who said said to me then, and

(01:24:30):
it was something I thought about a lot, which was,
you know, don't forget Douglas, that a psychopath is probably
born sinnoir. There's a type of psychopath, clearly, But she said,
don't forget sociopaths. You have to make And that was
something I thought about a lot, because of course, what
would happen if you had control of a civilian population

(01:24:55):
like the almost two million people in Gaza, a population
that in the time that Israel was said to be
doing a genocide there By the way, that part of
that aside is a mere fact. What would you do
if you had a civilian population for eighteen years and
you were a death cult and you ruled it, you

(01:25:16):
would teach what have Az taught in Gaza, which was
to teach for young Ghazan Palestinians how to join the
death cult, to admire it, to be part of it,
so that when you strive for entertainment, right for it you.

(01:25:37):
It's all very well documented. But the soldiers who were
going house to house from in twenty fourteen, there was
a relatively minor war in Gaza compared to this one.
And there are many soldiers I spoke to who were
involved in the relatory minor conflict in twenty fourteen, who
were also in Gaza since October twenty twenty three. They
all said that they noticed when they did house to

(01:26:00):
house clearing, going through trying to find hostages, trying to
find weapons, try and find tunnel entrances, and trying to
find the architects of the massacre. They all said the
same thing, which was that in ten years there was
a marked radicalization in the books, in the households, in
the learning materials, in everything from and it's not satire.

(01:26:21):
You know, math textbooks of you know, if you killed
two Jews and kill another two Jews, how many dead
Jews do you have?

Speaker 13 (01:26:27):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:26:27):
This is the way you learn arithmetic in Gas under Hamaz.
This is something that many of us noticed and had
warned about for years. But the fruit of this education system,
the fruit of this indoctrination was October seventh, and look
at it. It's been that it was a catastrophe for

(01:26:49):
the Israelis and it's turned out to be an utter disaster.

Speaker 7 (01:26:52):
For an immaturity and self centeredness. About psychopathy, that's probably intrin.

Speaker 3 (01:27:01):
So.

Speaker 7 (01:27:02):
And it does vary to some degree with temperament, Like
there are violent two year olds, most of them are
socialized by the time they're four, and the ones who
aren't are never socialized. They burn out in their twenties.
But immaturity itself is egocentric and pleasure seeking and power dominant.

(01:27:24):
There's no reason to assume that you couldn't maximize that
with the proper training. I mean, we train people. I know,
it's a rough realization if your soul is Russoian and
you believe that there's nothing but good in the heart,
even of children. And it's not that I have anything
against children, and I think they're delightful, but before they're socialized,

(01:27:46):
they're not social, yes, and so it's not that hard
to maintain not being social And then the consequence of
not being socialist you're alienated, you trust no one. So
then you live in a society where what's it like
to live in a society where you can trust no one,

(01:28:09):
where there's no social groupings, where everyone's hell bent on destruction. Well,
it's going to turn you against the world. And that's
a temptation to begin with.

Speaker 13 (01:28:18):
You know.

Speaker 7 (01:28:19):
In the Canaanables story, Cain's temptation is to nurse resentment
in consequence of his of the failure of his second
rate offerings, instead of to learn, and he kills Abel
and he fathers the genocidal masses.

Speaker 3 (01:28:36):
Well, this is this is one of my conclusions about
the nature of specifically of anti Semitism, goes back to
that Grossman quote that it acts as a mirror to
the failings of the person who suffers from it, so that,
for instance, Israel's neighbors could notice yet that the society

(01:28:57):
is Gdpham.

Speaker 7 (01:29:00):
Accord signatories deigned to know that, thank God for this
smaller that.

Speaker 3 (01:29:05):
This country is doing awfully well, considering the existential threat
to it constantly from its neighbors since its creation, since
literally the minute of its creation in forty eight.

Speaker 7 (01:29:16):
There's no land except desert.

Speaker 3 (01:29:18):
There's no water, there's no oil, sea, there's no it's
a one done bit of the region where there's no oil,
and yet they make a success of it. And if
you look around the rest of the region and colonial
enterprise Douglas, I know, but you look around the rest
of the region, if you're Israel's neighbors in Jordan or Egypt,

(01:29:39):
or certainly you know Gazan, Saudi anywhere, it's a perfect
subject for resentment. They are all victims of the colonial enterprise.

Speaker 7 (01:29:52):
Right, there are no responsibility for their own misery.

Speaker 14 (01:29:56):
Is endlessly someone to blame Dutch convenient, that's very convenient.
Very then someone to hate, someone to having better, and
that's a great unifying thing among much more.

Speaker 7 (01:30:07):
And boy, the worst of your people can really delight
in that. And you just have to let them loose
and encourage them.

Speaker 3 (01:30:13):
But just think about how this has how taking the
wrong route canaan able life, you know, has been such
a disaster.

Speaker 7 (01:30:25):
Well, Caine's descendants are genocidal. And then comes the flood. Right,
that's the that's the progression of the story, and it's causal.
It goes from the failure of the individual, the willingness
to turn to resentment and bitterness and then murderous sadism
and then to be the father of the genocidal masses.

Speaker 3 (01:30:45):
That's one of the reasons why I mean, as you know,
I do get theological in this book eventually, because you
can't not that's the problem with looking at evil.

Speaker 7 (01:30:55):
Yes, yeah, yes, right, it's really right, there's there's but.

Speaker 3 (01:30:58):
It's it's it's two things, really Dan. It's first is that,
as you say, I mean, I agree that that it's
it's hard to contend with evil unless you have some
kind of theological appreciation of it.

Speaker 5 (01:31:15):
And this.

Speaker 3 (01:31:17):
But the second thing is, of course that comes from that,
is that one of the things I think about in
the book is well, then what's the opposite of that? Yeah?

Speaker 7 (01:31:25):
Right, well that's that's the next question that arises, right,
is what's that's exactly?

Speaker 3 (01:31:30):
What?

Speaker 6 (01:31:31):
What?

Speaker 3 (01:31:32):
What would you say?

Speaker 7 (01:31:33):
The sequence of thoughts that occurred to me after I
spent twenty years studying Auschwitz and the death camps and
the Soviet Union and maos China, it's like, well, there's hell,
there's some way out of that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:46):
There's some place that's not that.

Speaker 7 (01:31:49):
There's a place that's as far away from that as
you could imagine and there's a pathway to that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:31:56):
Well, the mythological landscape is the world of good and evil, no.

Speaker 3 (01:31:59):
Doubt about it.

Speaker 7 (01:32:00):
So let's turn to the end of your book that
two parts, the disconnect. We've covered that to some degree,
from defeat into victory. So one of the things that
struck me about your book, and I believe this to
be the case, is that as Israel goes, so goes
the West. The reason that we're all obsessed with that
part of the world when there's many wars we could

(01:32:22):
be talking about, is because, ah, what is it that's
where the tire hits the road. If Israel goes, Europe goes.

Speaker 3 (01:32:31):
Well, that's that's certainly always be my belief. And some
people might say, well, how could a state that's not
yet eighty years old be so central to the West.
It's not, because it's just any other state and it's
not exactly eighty years old now. And so if you
could if you realize, if you consider, if you begin

(01:32:54):
to contend with what it is the death cults are
onto and what their supporters in the West might beyond too.
When they call for the destruction of Israel, they always
do it as a precursor to the downfall of everyone
else in the West. And they're like Iran, for example,

(01:33:14):
whether it's the Iatolas in Iran with the little Satan Israel,
great Satan, America, Britain, Canada, medium sized Satans, whether or
not it's the Iranian revolutionary government doing it for that,
whether the d of n Well, here's the thing you
see when a student, when students are Columbia, when their

(01:33:36):
group as well as vandalizing their campus, chasing Jewish students
across campus, assaulting janitors, and much more, all of course
in the name of fighting for the oppressed. When they
call in their statements for the complete destruction of Western civilization,
they do mean it.

Speaker 7 (01:33:54):
The spirits, the possesses, the means.

Speaker 3 (01:33:57):
It's just that they recognize that a country of nine
million people in the Middle East, surrounded by countries that
wouldn't mind its demise, is an easier thing to destroy
than a country of three hundred and fourty million people
like the world. Right.

Speaker 7 (01:34:14):
You know, it's because the civilized so called countries of
the world are a tiny fraction of the countries of
the West, and so Israel, in its existential condition, replicates
the condition of the West in a microcosm.

Speaker 3 (01:34:30):
Yes, And of course one of the if not the
absolutely central things in the West, which is the tradition
of the Bible. That the reason, the point.

Speaker 7 (01:34:43):
I'm getting to is we talked about that in terms
of the celebration of life. Yes, the life more abundant.

Speaker 3 (01:34:49):
The point I'm getting to exactly is that when these people,
whether it's the protesters in the West or the death
cult itself in Hamaz has the Lah and others, I
think they might have chosen their target. Well, I think
they're onto something. They do know that if you take

(01:35:10):
this out, everyone else is vulnerable. Next. It's very clever
target selection, not just because of size, but because of.

Speaker 7 (01:35:20):
Theologically theologically it means absolutely what it means theologically.

Speaker 3 (01:35:25):
And that's why I get on this thing that you
see again. It goes back to your thing about how
ignorant we are in the West about the reality of evil.
Among my child's is the presumption that everyone wants what
we want, for instance, which among other things, is also
just narcissistic projection. I mean, maybe everyone else doesn't want

(01:35:46):
what you want, maybe they want something totally different entirely, but.

Speaker 7 (01:35:49):
One of the like there are women to be covered
from head to toe so they can only see out
one eye and never talk.

Speaker 3 (01:35:55):
Maybe they want that, they want that since they're pursuing that.
And you know, one of the things I thought of
a lot, and I was thinking when I was covering
the ously also, as you know, a first hand account
is a response in the conflict. One of the things
I thought about a lot was what the spirit is

(01:36:16):
that animates in response to the death cults? And I
realized that it is. It's it's there in our texts,
it's there in the books. Therefore, choose like therefore, choose
like you have demy deuteronomy, choose life that you and
your descendants might live. When I was thinking about that,

(01:36:39):
I thought I was reminded of that phase of the
new new phase eight new wave aphists in the two
thousands of which I was distantly apart, who used to
say things like, well, the ten commandments they're so obvious.
I mean, they don't need to Why do we need
to be told not to murder because you were murdering
because human kind didn't know that you shouldn't murder.

Speaker 7 (01:36:59):
It was talk about envy that if you don't think
that's an a priority commission. You were very naive.

Speaker 3 (01:37:05):
But and so I heard that for many years about
the tenth months, and it was done in an I think,
usually naive and flippant way. But when it comes down
to this, one literally the commandment to choose life in
the face of whatever odds. Yeah, whatever odds.

Speaker 15 (01:37:27):
As the Psalmist, that's the story of Joel exactly, and
as the Psalmist.

Speaker 3 (01:37:32):
Says, I shall not die, but I shall live. One
of the things that I recount in the book is
just the number of examples I came across from people
who had stared right in the face of death, right
in the face of evil, and who even in the
face of it and in the aftermath of it, had
at the core of their being I shall not die,

(01:37:55):
but I shall live. And even in a military respect, bonds.
You see the difference between these things.

Speaker 7 (01:38:04):
The marriage you talk about Hezbolla breaking apart, in everyone
fleeing after the leadership has taken out right. Well, that's
that's why the one hundred men possessed of the proper
spirit can defeat twelve thousand enemies. Yes, because the enemies
aren't united by anything transcendent.

Speaker 3 (01:38:20):
One of the things that Hassan Nasralla, the now late
leader of Hasbla, had said for many years was the
g had his death taunt. He had said it many times.
At the famous time in the two thousands when he
says it in a speech and bey Root when he
says the Infidel's great weakness is that they love life,
but we we love death, and this is our great advantage.

(01:38:46):
He and others around him really meant this. They wanted
just like kidnapping children, kidnapping civilians. They knew that if
you go to a society focused on life, even to
the extent of the minimization of deaths of their enemies,

(01:39:07):
that if you go for a society that loves life,
desires life, fights for life, that you can terrofrize them.
You can terrify them with your orgiastic celebration of death.
But as I described toward the end of the book,
as the year of the conflict starts to turn around,

(01:39:31):
as Hassan Nasrala goes to meet his maker from a
be route bunker, when Sinowa finally crops above ground in
Rafa with only three other people with him, one by
the way, a bodyguard who was working for the UN
or u An agency, when Sinhwa comes to him, Yes, again,

(01:39:55):
Sinowa's bodyguard paid for with our taxpayer dollars. But when
the architectures seventh finally comes above ground in Raffa, which
of course the military expert Kamala Harris had told the
Israeli army not to go into because she'd looked at
the maps. But it turned out when they went into Rafa,
they found their enemy. And when you see these people,

(01:40:17):
there is an answer to the death cults. There is
an answer to the cult of death, which the IDF
has shown is the destruction of their leaders, the killing
of the psychopaths who would lead a society in this way,
and a demonstration of the values of your own society. Now,

(01:40:39):
that has been incredibly hard, because there hasn't been a
day I've been with the Israeli Defense Forces in the
last year and a half when I haven't seen how
they've been operating. And then read the world's news the
next day and read it as if these were polar
opposites of each other. As I say, you know israelis

(01:41:00):
enter hospital. Yes, because the hospital was somewhere where there's
footage of hostages from the seventh being taken in on
the seventh and not for care, whether it's hospitals, schools,
anything else. There was just nothing the IDF could do

(01:41:22):
from the moment they went in, indeed from the moment
before they went in, when they were not going to
be misrepresented by the world's media in a grand way.
But and I've been asked many times in the last
year and a half, why are they is ready so
bad at communicating that truth is it's extremely hard to

(01:41:43):
communicate what you're doing to a world which in significant
part has already decided that you're the bad guy, and.

Speaker 7 (01:41:51):
One that's manipulated as well, very profoundly by the actors
behind the scenes.

Speaker 3 (01:41:56):
And all the things that we talked about play into this.

Speaker 7 (01:41:59):
The refusal of the West to admit to the existence
of malevolence, our inability to understand the difference between a
just and an unjust war, our willingness to hide in
the chiballette that war is bad, which is hardly a
moral claim at all.

Speaker 3 (01:42:15):
No, I mean I would say that people there's a
saying I quote somebody saying the book as an idiot.
A British student, a survey in which a large number
of people said they wouldn't be willing to fight for
their country even if it was under existential threat. And
when they've been taught, well, yes, and when you dig
down on the reasons why they said they wouldn't even

(01:42:35):
be willing to fight for their country under existential threat,
as the young men and women of Israel have had
to do for the last eighteen months, the most common
reply among young British people of the same age was
war doesn't solve anything, right, right or yeah, yeah? Well,
and you think about how easy it is to make
the moral claim.

Speaker 7 (01:42:54):
For example, I've heard many people make this claim, I'm
against the death of women children, as if that's some
sort of moral claim. Well, if that's not the basis
of common humanity, no one can capitalize on that. Yes,
now what on that profession of the morality?

Speaker 3 (01:43:12):
Well, I'm the other one. I come across as people,
by the way, they don't really mean it, by the way,
because again and again, the people who say that Israel
is killing women and children are apologists for, at best
and supporters for, at worst a group that videoed themselves
killing women and children. And many of the people who
say that the israelis many of the people who say

(01:43:34):
that these rays are doing this are the same people
who say that Hamas did not. I mean, that's another
level of the psychopathy. Now in the West, it's like
the said repeatedly since the seventh You know what do
we having in the twenty seventeen believe all women turn out?
Don't believe women if they're Jews, don't believe it, then

(01:43:55):
don't believe it is if it's caught, If the rape
is caught on camera by Hamas and they're boasting of it,
don't believe them. But then a year down the road,
the road and the war in Gaza, these same people
who deny that Hamaz rape women on the seventh will
say that Israeli soldiers are raping women in Gaza every

(01:44:15):
single time. It's some form of projection.

Speaker 7 (01:44:19):
Well, and that's that last attempt to to what would
you say to salvage the impressor victim? Excuse me, that's
the staff in the center of the beliefs.

Speaker 3 (01:44:31):
But yes, I mean to go back to the main point. Yes,
the main response that I hear people who say things
like I don't like.

Speaker 2 (01:44:40):
War.

Speaker 3 (01:44:41):
Yep.

Speaker 7 (01:44:42):
Now your book ends, and we should wrap with this
because we're coming near the end. Like your book ends.
I guess on a quasi theological note, right, You're It
seems to me that the underlying conclusion that you drew
having admitted to the existence of evil, let's say, in

(01:45:04):
a theological sense, at least technically right, because it's a
language that expresses that landscape.

Speaker 3 (01:45:11):
It's at least that, and it is a pointer to
the opposite, Right.

Speaker 7 (01:45:15):
That's the thing to say it again about contending with
evil is once you admit to its existence, especially in
its lowest forms, you're forced to grapple with the fact
that the opposite exists, and then that points you towards heaven,
so to speak. Now you structured your book so that

(01:45:39):
your conclusion, which is actually somewhat optimistic, is that despite
being faced down by a death cult that outnumbers them geometrically,
the Israelis are still there, Yes, and they're thriving. And
there are forces within the Islamic world that have recognized

(01:46:01):
that and that are doing their best to what not
even so much reconcile themselves to that fact, but perhaps
even to welcome it. Yes, and that that's held after
October seventh, which was a complete bloody miracle. That was
the Abraham accords. And that's what I want to talk
to you on the daily about, on the daily wire side,
because I would like to talk to you. We didn't

(01:46:22):
get into the issue of Islam versus Christianity and exactly
how that might be conceptualized and mediated, but I'd like
to do that on the daily wire side for all
of you who are watching and listening. That worship of life, right,
it's the axiomatic presupposition that it's no different than the

(01:46:42):
presupposition I think that people are made in the image
of God. It's just different language, and that points to
what that points to a transcendent good that's encapsulated in
the Jewish scriptures and in Christianity as God. God's the
spirit that demands that life be valued above all, above all,

(01:47:05):
not above God perhaps, And that's more like a definition,
you know. And then the question is, and I thought
about this for a long time, well, what if you
abandon your belief in the goodness of life? Job refuses
to do that. The anti natalists abandon their belief in
the goodness of life. The cascading consequences of that are genocidal.

(01:47:30):
That's where it ends, always is, and that's what's happening, but.

Speaker 3 (01:47:34):
The opportunity to see the opposite of that. Yeah, to
see the opposite of the anti natalism, for instance.

Speaker 15 (01:47:45):
Has the only positive birth rate in the Western world,
and not just among the religious, among the secular as well,
which is blowing the minds of a.

Speaker 3 (01:47:55):
Lot of demography as it should. As it should, you
will notice that your most secular tel Avivians will be
having more children than themselves. There are more than two
children a couple on average.

Speaker 7 (01:48:10):
Pers really pulled that off, and the Hungarians haven't even
been able to manage it, even though they're trying very hard.

Speaker 3 (01:48:17):
Yes, but that point is to one of the central
things in it. You probably can't fake that stuff up
the Hungarians for instance, and I think the polls when
they wanted to encourage people to have moreoically economic if
you have a fourth child, you will pay no income
tax on the tenth year. Maybe people don't structure their

(01:48:40):
lives like that. Why is it that the Marxist thing
to say? But how about if I mean, look at
the difference between a Hungarian couple who are working out
the tax break advantages of having a fourth child, but
deciding not to have a second child world versus an

(01:49:03):
Israeli family in a war zone, still creating life. That's
not a tax incentive thing. That is at a far,
far deeper level. And it is to do with a commandment.
It is to do with a commandment. And you know,
I would just add one other thing to that, which

(01:49:25):
is I was talking the other day with a friend,
biblical scholar, and he said, you know that famous quote
on the walls of the un the quote from Isaiah.
And he shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke
many people, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares

(01:49:46):
and their spears into pruning hooks. Nations shall not lift
up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.
Now that's magnificent sentiment. Of course, who wouldn't want to
follow it. But the thing that I just realized is,

(01:50:07):
look at what comes before it. Let us go up
to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of
the God of Jacob, and he will teach us of
his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For
out of Zion shall go forth the law and the
word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Speaker 7 (01:50:26):
Right, that's called a precondition.

Speaker 3 (01:50:29):
Douglas, You don't get the idea of war being no
more or peace breaking out breaking out among nations unless
the word goes out from Jerusalem. You can have one,
but you can't have it without the other.

Speaker 7 (01:50:48):
That's right, Yeah, all right, sir. For those of you
who are going to follow us over to the daily wareside,
I'm going to talk to Douglas with.

Speaker 9 (01:51:32):
So when am I to find to send people lying
on the mind.

Speaker 1 (01:51:35):
In the business and disregarding would Pope have to say
about my life?

Speaker 9 (01:51:38):
Because to try to stream myself, try to find the things.

Speaker 1 (01:51:41):
But when the other said the peas I'm living now,
tipa means I mean to find your business.

Speaker 9 (01:51:45):
Because the fact you out of.

Speaker 3 (01:51:46):
The Spanish what you so based did my end of the.

Speaker 9 (01:51:49):
Person of myths waiting to the what till it appear?
It don't suckbody in the head. Let me digress.

Speaker 1 (01:51:54):
I'm not saying I'm okay for frankfulness, because that's ridiculous,
but spending playing and so machic.

Speaker 9 (01:51:59):
But I'm said, if I can't afforde to be your
live and lavish and toss a little cabbage so I
can feel above average, I'm gonna do it. Why not
count some new ship If you throw shain't just remember one.

Speaker 2 (01:52:09):
Day shine too. I don't want to grab the water joy.

Speaker 5 (01:52:13):
I ain't doing the school because I'm going there mine,
I sighing.

Speaker 2 (01:52:17):
I'm oh man, you know you need your mind on.
Ben's like your whole time.

Speaker 9 (01:52:23):
If you ain't talking money, they an't get about my side.

Speaker 2 (01:52:26):
It's not it's keep.

Speaker 9 (01:52:29):
On, little body, it's talking somebody don't.

Speaker 2 (01:52:32):
Want to know. But I don't want to tell me.
If you can with the story.

Speaker 9 (01:52:37):
Something as it is the apple pop.

Speaker 1 (01:52:39):
If you're stricken and I don't find any pleasure and
have no food in the kitchen, now kicks in my closet.

Speaker 9 (01:52:43):
Now kid, yeah, water like I'm knowing your buffer.

Speaker 1 (01:52:46):
No, I bonn and bunchet of with my gout and
the Florida don't need to be humble because I buff
my apple breaks, because my pro can stay hungry.

Speaker 9 (01:52:53):
You call eagle stroking man. You want to be joking.

Speaker 2 (01:52:55):
You hate.

Speaker 9 (01:52:56):
I don't want to spend my money what you smoke?

Speaker 2 (01:52:58):
My gods have a nice car. Come's gotta have a
nice hal Come like you don't.

Speaker 1 (01:53:06):
Care, just don't worry about making it mista episode the people.

Speaker 5 (01:53:13):
So no, I'm telling to what I wanted to when
we want to jo When it became doing the story
and I'm going in my life, I'm all right.

Speaker 9 (01:53:22):
If you know you need your mine, you old, it's
hard life, no whole time. If you ain't talking money,
then get about the side.

Speaker 2 (01:53:31):
It's my lovely.

Speaker 3 (01:53:32):
It stays high.

Speaker 2 (01:53:33):
Keep on he gooddings. Don't be a cat. I don't
want to tell. I don't want to tell. When it
came to the stories like my life, I'm all right.

Speaker 9 (01:53:44):
You know you need your mind, your own being in.
It's no whole time. You ain't talking money, then get
about the sides.

Speaker 2 (01:53:53):
It's I'm like.

Speaker 3 (01:53:54):
It stays right.

Speaker 2 (01:53:55):
Keep on he goodds. Don't be a cat. I don't
want to to.

Speaker 4 (01:53:59):
I don't want to do it. If I can't do it.

Speaker 9 (01:54:01):
The schools unco my life, my life, I'm alright. I
don't man, I don't change it. It's my life the
whole time. It's as you need to be like that.

Speaker 3 (01:54:14):
It's my life.

Speaker 2 (01:54:15):
It's stay right.

Speaker 9 (01:54:17):
I don't feels a lot things.

Speaker 2 (01:54:20):
I don't want to do the way. I don't want
to deal with it. If I can't do all, the
school is uno my l I'm alright, and you know
you need my old thing.

Speaker 3 (01:54:30):
It's my life the whole time.

Speaker 9 (01:54:33):
If you ain't talking about you that get about your side.

Speaker 3 (01:54:36):
It's my library. It's stay right, keep only a goody.

Speaker 9 (01:54:39):
It's don't be about because it's to you.

Speaker 2 (01:54:41):
I don't want to do the way. I don't want
to do it if I can't do it.

Speaker 9 (01:54:44):
The schools in my life.

Speaker 4 (01:55:00):
Instructs chastest astricts paststst