The Journey of the Lost pt. 3 Death Cults and Delusion 😈

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
He am.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to hell.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
He said, what games? They will.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
You hit the games?

Speaker 4 (00:15):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (00:15):
What can.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
He come?

Speaker 5 (00:21):
I'm not I.

Speaker 6 (00:22):
Wanna tell the ball bank, tell pa he try sound
wacha b b.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
T you give him buck?

Speaker 5 (00:37):
I can give a buck.

Speaker 6 (00:38):
Last sip set saint taken. Then the sons, you give
a buck. I can give a buck.

Speaker 5 (00:43):
Last. I'm not shut out.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
I do that.

Speaker 5 (00:45):
Dad your bed tag, don't give a bucky, and I
can give a buck.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Malash six said, say take your sons.

Speaker 5 (00:51):
You give a buck.

Speaker 6 (00:52):
I can give my money last. I'm not selling my
son a.

Speaker 7 (00:55):
Nanny a bed tag only fuck sick wause I'm doing
a bit time.

Speaker 5 (00:58):
Come.

Speaker 6 (00:58):
I told you one before not gonna be what the.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Plan the love about?

Speaker 7 (01:02):
And the other present the partner pres the one of
the what let the money tin?

Speaker 5 (01:05):
Niggas b cos it just from God?

Speaker 6 (01:07):
The at present pot Take the walk down walk by un.

Speaker 5 (01:10):
Up there, I don't know what the fuck do?

Speaker 6 (01:13):
Take part the book a boat buck man? What's the nothing?

Speaker 3 (01:16):
No?

Speaker 8 (01:16):
I tell so God what the walk pat till okay,
then try to talk God.

Speaker 6 (01:33):
What's your walk?

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Pan till.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
You give a fuck?

Speaker 6 (01:37):
I can give a buck last. Success Jim in the soul.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
Last, you give a fuck, I can give a fun last.

Speaker 6 (01:44):
I'm not telling him my boy day Benchest, you give
him buck.

Speaker 5 (01:48):
I can give a fuck last.

Speaker 6 (01:49):
Said say Jack.

Speaker 5 (01:50):
Insol that you put him a buck.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
I can give a fuck last. I'm not selling him.

Speaker 6 (01:55):
I'm gonna let you pritchet can't buck with the bar.

Speaker 7 (01:59):
Oh song go rab boat time the talk to the
mart of the fir son who has something and get
balk to the bar.

Speaker 5 (02:09):
Also what rab both.

Speaker 6 (02:11):
Times bok the bark their song.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
You have no thing?

Speaker 9 (02:16):
By fucking fun, I'm gonna do it's my Lena the US.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
A more dollar, fuck us a dollar.

Speaker 6 (02:50):
There was a four dollar puck. If you do win, think.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
About a dollar by.

Speaker 10 (03:09):
My side.

Speaker 4 (03:19):
My good oh yeah, alright, oh my god, you're all right.

Speaker 6 (03:38):
You don't give a buck.

Speaker 5 (03:39):
I can give up my last.

Speaker 6 (03:40):
Success and change.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
You know that you don't give him up.

Speaker 6 (03:44):
I can give a buck that I'm not selling my mother.
You madchest, you give up. I can give up rock
last success. They tackles that you give up. I can
give a coat.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
I'm not selling my mother.

Speaker 5 (03:57):
No, you bet chat you play Lobo.

Speaker 6 (04:07):
And take time, t pads and just shine.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Time to find to f friend you being done the
bottle me so.

Speaker 5 (04:23):
The wines based in myself back in and go and
a freaking the consume.

Speaker 6 (04:37):
Nothing got in on.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
The bottom me so.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Full face off two free as.

Speaker 7 (04:47):
The game PA, don't bring me thing got the time,
the tuck out the more not a man basic, I'm
gonna take me a better person, they said, my pop,
I'm away went by.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
That man.

Speaker 6 (05:18):
The sod.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
O my said, also say both friends staging.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
A friend.

Speaker 7 (06:00):
There are also based man the build one on the
bill came on the same thing.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
The same time.

Speaker 11 (06:07):
Thank he said, it's a part of the hill in
the time.

Speaker 6 (06:41):
I know the willow bases time take.

Speaker 5 (06:46):
Don't find ab.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
As a dog.

Speaker 5 (06:58):
By the five so I did.

Speaker 6 (07:15):
So I away with my in my mother three ways.

Speaker 4 (07:39):
That do not so mad I got.

Speaker 5 (07:42):
Do do the five mi so I.

Speaker 6 (08:03):
It's oh well me I mean from the theme is
of my past, cause the.

Speaker 5 (08:11):
Fatality has been a part of me.

Speaker 6 (08:14):
But I won't love to last and it gets difficult
not to repress to know the lotherther way, but reasss
this situation.

Speaker 12 (08:28):
Cause I have to learn some day from the side
my appetite for ornification, the strange relationship I'm trying him
to stay away from the compromising situations.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
All I had to live for love past the blasphemys,
no ship lasting that.

Speaker 5 (08:54):
I be gonna mother find a woman who would they
send me?

Speaker 2 (09:00):
The uncle go.

Speaker 5 (09:03):
And every time I loved that way, I'm feeling like
I'm the.

Speaker 6 (09:06):
First sat destruct she has.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
I can't up shake.

Speaker 10 (09:08):
Stealing and it's great and thoughts up burst all that
they gets paint inside me and don't go away. I'm trying,
so why not to breaking talk?

Speaker 5 (09:15):
I'm too dentation she.

Speaker 13 (09:20):
Shut thoughts of hers all that they gets paid inside me,
they don't go away.

Speaker 12 (09:27):
I'm trying, So why not to breaking talk up to
dentation serve think inside of me?

Speaker 5 (09:34):
And I love cannot serve.

Speaker 6 (09:37):
We have to thought in love brom My sensation and
a woman I call my wife.

Speaker 12 (09:44):
But I get tell you on the hardest boat, just
trying to take my love of a way with things.
Don't understand it's the strength off I commit and and
I loved it to stay.

Speaker 13 (09:58):
So how can I and you know these cybersports and
ours you wait ship for frustration, strength and no florthing
into this rayandom win these cyerpois and our se you

(10:18):
wai sh frustraight ship straight and thing no for I
mean into the random way.

Speaker 5 (10:26):
I can think away.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
Every time I love lay, I'm feeling.

Speaker 12 (10:32):
Like I'm the first safe destructions.

Speaker 10 (10:34):
I cannot shake his steeling and strain, and I'm burst
and think it's pain inside than the way I'm trying.

Speaker 5 (10:41):
Soon, I'm not to breaking.

Speaker 12 (10:42):
Something to temptation gets burst and the gets paintings.

Speaker 6 (10:53):
I mean the way I'm trying, so, I'm not to
breaking something.

Speaker 5 (10:56):
Out to temptation.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Every time I love, feeling like I'm the heer.

Speaker 5 (11:01):
Say this true. She means I can't I shake his
feeling and.

Speaker 6 (11:04):
It's granted, talks of hers all that, then it's paint
inside me.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
Don't away. I'm trying, so why not to breaking something
to temptation? She talks of hers all that, think it's
paint inside me. Go away.

Speaker 6 (11:22):
I'm trying someone not to breaking something to temptation. What
she can't go bad? But if she finds out.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Of bacon, buse.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
What she don't uppons me wasting her time taking another.

Speaker 6 (11:37):
The foot graded I siwhere what she don't know?

Speaker 12 (11:43):
What if she finds out of bag and bcause what
you don't hoones me and wasting her time taking another
foot granted and somewhere.

Speaker 5 (11:55):
She don't, she don't, she don't, she don't.

Speaker 6 (11:58):
I don't worry I'm missing what she goes, she go,
She gon't.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
She don she don't want me messing what he go?

Speaker 5 (12:09):
She go, She don't, she don't, she don't.

Speaker 4 (12:12):
She don't want the.

Speaker 5 (12:13):
Missing what see you go? She don't go? You go
baby messing with.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
J don't git down't don't want me.

Speaker 5 (12:27):
Messing where your time my way.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
I'm feeling like I'm saying, that's your seens. I can't,
I says, feeling and it's great bad.

Speaker 5 (12:35):
I'm a hers all.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
That they gets paid inside me.

Speaker 5 (12:38):
Way, I'm trying.

Speaker 6 (12:39):
Ain't somebody, don't you breaking Something's you temptation?

Speaker 5 (12:43):
She let.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
No thoughts up hers all that.

Speaker 10 (12:50):
They gets paid inside me go No way, I'm trying somebody,
not you breaking something, you temptation.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Every time I fella, I'm feeling like I'm first.

Speaker 12 (12:59):
Saying that's trainers are the big pain insig. Way, I'm
trying something I'm not too breaking some teptagelists pain insig

(13:20):
I'm trying so I'm not too breaking something.

Speaker 14 (13:22):
I'm too temptations, don't do it, don't, don't worry, missing words,
don't don't it.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Don don messing word by.

Speaker 3 (13:49):
The Mussim world remains the only part of the world
in which Nazi propaganda is rife, routine, and the commonplace
in Arabic and in English. You know, the offerings were
things like mine. Camp is very commonplace in the Muslim world.
The love of anti Semitic Nazi style stuff is main street.

Speaker 15 (14:10):
To what extent are we are potentially about to go
through what some are calling the Lebanonization of Europe?

Speaker 16 (14:19):
Well, we're already in it partly, so can that happen?

Speaker 13 (14:22):
Here?

Speaker 3 (14:23):
Everything can happen? Do you foresee it? I gave every
warning I could. Only one in four British Muslims believe
that Jimaz carried out murders, and on October seventh they
say things like Israel kills babies. Jmaz broadcast it's killing
of babies every time. The accusation they make against the

(14:47):
Jewish stat is the think they are guilty of themselves.
How did the debate go with Dave Smith on Jovogan?
How do you feel the one you hang on you're
talking about crossing points. And not only have you never
been to a crossing point in either Egypt or in Israel,
you never even been to the region. Joseph, I've was
concerned that he is spent much of the last eighteen

(15:09):
months platforming. Dave Smith kept getting the name of the
first president of Israel wrong. It felt like you wanted
to make that point because I was to make that point.
I don't know if I mean it's obviously landed with
some people or not with others.

Speaker 15 (15:24):
Sixty one percent of regular Heretics viewers haven't subscribed yet.
Can I ask you a favor if you love these
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seconds and powers our mission join hundreds of thousands of
fellow Heretics. Subscribe and let's question everything together. How did
the debate go with Dave Smith on Joe Rogan? How

(15:46):
do you feel it went?

Speaker 3 (15:47):
Well? It was a few days ago. I don't know,
I mean I was I thought I said much of
what I had to say, Joseph Friend, I was concerned
that he has spent much of the last eighteen months
platforming one side of an argument and not really given

(16:12):
any voice to the other, and I felt that that
was the same not only with Israel and Gaza, but
with Russia and Ukraine as well, to a great extent.
Whatever people's views, and I mean, I'm all for the
airing of all types of views, but I do think that,
you know, he can choose whatever guests he wants. But
I was concerned by the possibility that his listeners were

(16:36):
very considerable in number, almost as big as yours, could
have been misled into thinking that what he was presenting
was the mainstream view on both wars, and I didn't
think that it was a fair estimation about the conflict.
And he brought this comedian to debate me, and I know,

(17:00):
I mean, he has some good points. He obviously feels
very strongly about conflictly doesn't really know, I think. But
she's right to have those views, my right to counter them,
anyone else's right to tell us birth to Afore.

Speaker 15 (17:17):
What's it like a debate like that? You're going into
one and you're sort of debating Joe as well. You
went in quite early as well, quite hard, and I
think a lot of people wanted you to as well.
What's the atmosphere like beforehand and afterwards provery nice.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
I mean, Joe's a great guy, great guy, very warm,
very talented guy, and you know, equally warm.

Speaker 16 (17:37):
Afterwards, I just thought I couldn't not raise a you know,
something was on my mind, and.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
So I did. There there were some parts, For example,
they taught you said Darryl Cooper said Church was the
chief villain of World War two, and they said, no,
he never said that.

Speaker 15 (17:58):
He never said that, but I heard a he did
say that very clearly, and he's written it. There are
a few points like that. Do you feel like there
were some unfair aspects?

Speaker 3 (18:06):
Well, I mean the unfair aspect is just that I
don't think it's incumbent upon anyone to absorb extremely fringe
and not remotely respected pseudo historians who who I mean.
The weird play that kept happening was, well, this historian

(18:26):
is wrong. All the major historians counter this person. Then
it was like, well, he doesn't say is a historian.
But what I found amusing about that was that I
don't know how much you know about MMA fighting. No,
very little. Yeah, if you went on too Joe's podcast
and wanted to talk for three hours about your views
on MMA fighting, he would fairly early on recognize that

(18:51):
you were a bullshitter and would call you out for it.
I just would like to see the same levels of
public discussion hygiene that would be applied to discussion of
a fight, to a discussion of a war.

Speaker 15 (19:09):
I suppose it's complicated because I know nothing about Mma,
whereas these guys would say that they know a lot
about Israel.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
And you could fake it quite easily. You could spend
an afternoon online, you could go to Wikipedia. You could
claim favorite fighter and then get their name wrong, for instance,
and Dave Smith kept getting the name of the first
president of Israel wrong. But that's fine, you could do it.
It's just I think they'd notice that's interesting. I mean,

(19:35):
I mean I looked at a few of the Joe
Rogan things recently. It was Ian Carroll was another one,
and there was something he said I thought was really
interesting and I wanted to get your thoughts on it.
He said, I realized, I better fucking understand this thing
before I created my new channel and career on this
thing being Israel.

Speaker 15 (19:51):
But before I created my career on this topic, I
don't understand if I'm going to take a stance against Israel,
I should understand why and how so I started doing research.

Speaker 17 (19:59):
So to me, that was a col native, a slip up.
Do you see what I'm see it? Saying sure he
didn't know what he was doing and then decided to
mug up fast. That's fine, That's something you can do
in the internet era. I'm very suspicious of this thing
of I've done the research.

Speaker 15 (20:12):
But also because he started from a place of bias,
like I'm going to have this anti Israel blog or whatever.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
Now I better go in research. Why I hate his role.
You're always gonna if you say I want to believe
flat Earth, you can find enough stuff to make a
material online.

Speaker 16 (20:25):
Yeah, And I've argued with flat earth is and it's
not as easy as it seems.

Speaker 3 (20:29):
All well said that, did he Yeah. One of his
essays he talks about how how tricky it is actually
to debate something like that, because you start to come
up the sort of edge of your own knowledge. You go, well,
like do the lip of the horizon stuff, and it's like,
I mean, I've been to Australia. You just you know,
you if somebody is immersed in a kooky corner of

(20:52):
a subject like that, they can throw people off balance.
Because this is their obsession, and yeah, you can't. You can't.
It is so hard to argue that there's a rhetorical trick.
That's I mean, go back to fighting. I mean, if
somebody was a white belt and a black belt, you've
got to accept that there's a hierarchy there, and there is. Well,

(21:16):
if you were speaking to a white belt karate guy
who was pretending to be a black belt and wasn't, again,
that would be called out again. Somebody who says they
aren't historian, but they're writing about history and it's totally debunked,
pseudo history or alternative history or weird not even revisionist history.

(21:38):
It's just returning to things that have regurgitating things that
have been around many times before. But if you're holding
yourself out like that, pretending you're a kind of black belt,
you should be called out on it. And a real
black belt in that case, a real historian such as
Andrew Roberts church Was biographers, whereas recently in Churchward's biographer

(22:02):
you would think that there could be a difference, and
there is a difference. There's all the difference in the
world between a white belt and a black belt. There
is between a pretend historian like some of these guys,
and a real historian like Andrew Roberts, and I'm not
willing to pretend that there isn't a difference.

Speaker 15 (22:21):
Yeah, I feel there was an interesting point that a
lot's been made of online where you said about experts,
and you know, some people are saying we mustn't listen
to experts, and you said, have you been to these places?
And I think it's hard for people to understand when
they're listening to that who haven't read your book, your
brilliant book on democracies and death Calls Israel Hamas and
the Future of the West.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
I was reading this. I've been reading it the last
couple of weeks and have completed it and finished it,
and it's an unbelievably good book that's beautifully written and
gave me nightmares. I think everybody must read this book.

Speaker 15 (22:52):
You being on the ground as you were after October
seventh and have been many times in Israel is essential
to understanding such a complex situations.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
It not, I think, so I'm rather surprised that people
think that. I was rather surprised that people were surprised
that I have a rule of trying to go to
places that I'm writing about. But I mean, I'm sorry,
you know, it is a kind of journalistic rule. On

(23:21):
the most basic one, you cannot be the correspondent for
Washington d C. If you live in Plymouth you would be.
I mean, you could have views on it, of course,
but if you're a journalist, you'd have to be writing
from Washington DC. And again, if a British journalist wrote

(23:44):
endlessly about American politics but have never been to America,
or wrote endlessly about American society and what you have
to understand about American society and had never been to America,
I'd think that was a basic failing of theirs as
a journalist. And one of the reasons I put myself
in some of the situations I do is simply because
I think that's what you have to do as a

(24:05):
writer and a journalist. And I'm interested that there are
many people coming up and voicing their views, which again
they have every right to do, to say that they
think that's some kind of elitist thing. It isn't. It's
very basic standard journalistic practice. I suppose we're in a

(24:28):
bit of a difficult situation. It's something that I'm always
trying to navigate myself. You know, I had someone on
the other day talking about the COVID vaccine, for example,
it was an anti vaccine. I'm sitting there going shit,
I'm in too deep here. What do I say? Do
I push back? I don't even have the knowledge to
push back? Why am I doing this? At the same time, if.

Speaker 15 (24:44):
We don't do this, the legacy media or they're only
pushing one story, which, as you discussed on Rogan about
the vaccines, was wrong.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
So yeah, look, that is one of the great Look,
it's just something we're going to have to navigate, and
if we're going to navigate it, we've got to be
honest about it. A lot of experts have proven themselves
to be wrong. That does not mean that expertise does
not exist, and that does not mean that all opinions

(25:14):
are relative or indeed of equal truth. If you were
being wheeled in for brain surgery in your local hospital
and comic Dave Smith introduced himself as your surgeon, I
think you would say.

Speaker 16 (25:32):
Could I get a qualified doctor to do this?

Speaker 3 (25:36):
Yes? Right, I mean it's I acknowledge that it's a
little less clear when it comes to who's a historian
who's a journalist and so on. It's a little less
clear because we're in a very exciting moment of mass
access to mass amounts of information. But I still think

(26:01):
that that doesn't mean that everything is equally valid as
an idea or as an observation. And when somebody makes
an observation that I know not to be true because
I've seen that what they're saying is not true, I can't.
I can't pretend that's all the same thing. And I,

(26:22):
you know, some people seem to think, you know that
I might I must be saying that people don't have
the right to an opinion. Absolutely not. Everyone has the
right to opinion and everyone has the right to a voice.
It it just doesn't mean that every opinion is equally valid.
And if you've put in the years of work that
I have into on the ground reporting, it is slightly

(26:43):
irksome to have to refute claims that are untrue from
somebody who's never put in a day's work on the ground.
And again, I mean people think that journalism doesn't have
any many standards. We do have some, and but again,

(27:04):
just getting back to this point of expertise, it's it's
a really I recognize it's a difficult one for people
to navigate when it comes to less clear things than
black belt karate and brain surgery. Still, there are standards.
There should be standards, and we shouldn't give up on them.
I'm not going to agree that some David Irving esque

(27:27):
revisionist historian has the same expertise as Martin Gilbert.

Speaker 15 (27:33):
Is it fair then to say I felt, maybe the
first half hour I listened to the whole thing that
you did feel irked and we're making I always feel irked.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
Yes, you're an irked.

Speaker 15 (27:43):
Man and an irked man, and I think after maybe
an hour or two, then you guys got more into the.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Then we got into I think we went onto Ukraine
than we did. It felt like you wanted to make
that point because I was doing that point. I don't
know if I mean, it's obviously landed with some people
and not with others, but that's fine. I don't particularly care.
I tried to make the point as well as I could,
and it's for others to run with it or not.

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(28:58):
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do the work for you. Because a great point you
make in your book about and I hadn't considered this
a Jewish person myself. I know about this sort of
changeable figure of antisemitism, but I didn't think about the
way people project. Different people project this. Was it their

(29:20):
worst fears or their worst bits about them. Tell me
about that. It's fascinating, isn't it. I say fascinating because
I'm not saying my idea is fascinating. Is that it's
an idea I found in the great Soviet Jewish writer
Vasily Grossman, who, in the middle of his masterpiece Life
and Fate, devotes four pages to the nature of antisemitism

(29:40):
in the midnight of the twentieth century between stalin Grad
and Treblinka. He takes this extraordinary passage and he talks
about Yes. One of the things is that he says
that it explains where antisemitism can be found everywhere, left,
right up down. You know, it can come from any
di because it's a shape shifting virus. But the observation

(30:03):
that the Grossman makes, which is really a really keen
to put out there for more people to think about,
as I have been, is that he says that everywhere
it's a mirror to the person who suffers from it.
It tells us nothing about the Jews, but it tells
us the person who suffers from it, it's a mirror
to their own failings. And Yes, one of the examples

(30:25):
he gives is, of course that the Nazis accused the
Jews of being racists and wanted world domination. Yeah, almost
sounds like someone. Yeah, so the Nazis were telling us
something about themselves in their accusations against the Jews. I

(30:46):
think the same thing's happening today. I think we're seeing
projection on a colossal scale.

Speaker 15 (30:51):
How might that work with let's say Islamists and woke
people who are both in some respects anti semetic.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
Well, Islamist's accuse particularly the Jurish state of everything they
want to do. Only one in four British Muslims revealed
in the poll last year believe that Hamas carried out
murders and on October seventh, but they accuse.

Speaker 16 (31:20):
The idef of by the way I mean, it's it's
a very.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
Weird one because I mean, having been embedded with the idea,
and I don't think any idea of soldier goes into
guards are thinking. Look at all the women here, I
can if I know, they don't sort of seen liable
against Israeli soldiers. But this is of course what Hamaz

(31:49):
did and what they boasted of and what they filmed
and put out to the world. And so the people
who accuse Israel's soldiers are the people who are covering
Forrists or are themselves. It's an extraordinary thing to witness.

(32:11):
They say things like Israel kills babies. Hamas broadcasts it's
killing of babies. Hamaz just had a dead baby parade
in Gaza when they were handing back the b best
children from captivity where they'd killed them. Every time, the
accusation they make against the Jewish state is the thing

(32:33):
they are guilty of themselves. Colonials expansions. While you mentioned
colonialist expansion Atolmani when he thanked America and other students
for coming out on the anti imperialist, anti colonialist cause
on campuses and so on, when he thanks them, he
accuses Israel, as he has repeatedly, as the Iranian Revolutionary

(32:54):
government has repeatedly for decades, accuses Israel of being a
colonizing state, which regime has colonized the great people of
Persia since nineteen seventy nine, the Iranian Revolutionary government, who
has gone on in our own lifetimes and in recent
years in particular, to colonize Iraq, colonize Syria, colonize and

(33:18):
destroy the great country of Lebanon, formerly great colonized Yemen
colonized Gaza, but they say that the Jews are colonialists.
One other obvious example is President Edwin in Turkey, who
accuses the Israelis of being occupiers. I don't know if
you've been to Northern Cypress. No, So that's occupied for

(33:43):
the last fifty years by the Turkish government that invaded,
illegally invaded Cyprus, stole the north part of the country.
We're still in a situation half a century later where
a native member state occupies off of an EU member state.
He would have thought that that's the sort of thing

(34:03):
people would be irked about, annoyed, maybe even protest about.

Speaker 16 (34:08):
But from one year to the.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
Next, there's no mass movement in any Western city, and
there's not been any encampment in any American campus to
write the injustice of the occupation of Northern Cyprus. But again,
all Edwin is doing, or the Turkish government are doing
by accusing the Israelis of being occupiers is revealing who
they are. They're occupiers, and then I supposed to woke.

Speaker 15 (34:33):
They see Jews sometimes in Israelis as super whites and privileged,
which they tend to be themselves.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
Well, I think that as a very interesting corner, that
one which deserves thought. I saw the video the other
day of Muslim students at Princeton screaming go back home
to Jewish students. I mean, that's some kind of what

(35:00):
do they think They're not right welcome there? I mean,
there's some kind of version of projection going on there,
and maybe they think they should go back home, or
fear being told to go back home. It's it's an
extremely revealing aspect of all of this. But as you know,

(35:22):
and I try to bring across in that Rogan episode,
you know, anti Semitism is always a problem for Jews first,
but it is my certain belief that it's a problem
for everyone else next, because once you start playing with
this dark matter, you are going to open the gates
of every other hell as well. And you don't have

(35:45):
to be a pseudo historian to know that. You've just
got to have any memory.

Speaker 15 (35:50):
I think it's such an important point to make because
even my show people know I'm a Jewish YouTuber, but
most of the audience are not Jewish.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
They couldn't possibly be just by the numbers.

Speaker 15 (35:58):
There aren't enough jew really, and I think people are
starting to understand people who are more becoming more interested
in this, are starting to understand that what they would
be next, are still you know, they're in trouble. I
think it was it was hard thinking about what to
interview about because you've been on a lot of shows
at the moment, really high profile once and I thought, Okay,
what is it in the book that's really different?

Speaker 3 (36:20):
And I didn't know this, and maybe I should know this,
but it didn't.

Speaker 15 (36:23):
And that was how prominent the ideas of Hitler, actual
Nazis and Hitler are in the Middle East.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
So tell me about that. Yeah, I mean it's something
anyone who travels in the region, being the region at all, notices.
I give an example that it's just on a visit
to Egypt move Parrack's time. You know, I go to
the train station in Cairo to get some reading matter
for the train to Alexandria, and you know, I wanted

(36:52):
a sort of recent novel or something like that, and
in Arabic and in English. You know, the offerings were
things like main camp protocols, have learned, eld as, design
books about the Perfidious Jew and so on. And that's
just one example, like you have many others. But it's
very commonplace in the Muslim world. I've seen the same

(37:14):
things even outside the midd Late East, in countries like Malaysia,
same thing occurs. Just a lot of anti Semitic Nazi
style stuff is mainstream in a way, which thank god,
it hasn't been here in Europe since nineteen forty five.
And there are reasons for that. And one of the

(37:35):
things I mentioned at one point in the book is
of all of the soldiers in the Idfi interviewed who
were doing house to house clearance in Gaza, that is,
after the civilian population had been told to leave and
only Hamas fighters stay, they would go house to house
and they work. You know, they were find looking for
tunnel entrances where the hostages might be able to be found,

(37:57):
and looking for arms dumps, of course, and they found
both or either in every second or third house across
the whole of Gaza. But they also always had the
same thing, which is that the amount of Nazi style
material in routinely in gars and houses. And in fact,
it's also a very very interesting thing that those who

(38:20):
had been involved in the comparatively minimal but significant twenty
fourteen war in Gaza, those who had also been called
back to serve since October seventh, twenty twenty three. Very
many of them told me how much worse it had
got in that period, like the fact that you know,
mine camp was the coffee table book in too many houses,

(38:41):
like far more than before that, the protocols, that all
of this stuff was even more prominent, far more prominent
than it had been just nine years earlier. And there's
a reason for that that I given the book. We
don't have to get into now, but there was a
very very clear reason that I explain as to why
the multim world remains the only part of the world

(39:03):
in which Nazi propaganda, Nazi anti Semitism and more is
life routine and commonplace. And I wish it were not, because,
among other things, it's again not only to the detriment
of the Jewish state that that's the case, and to
Jews worldwide, it's much to the detriment of those societies.

(39:23):
There is so much potential in a country like Egypt.
Why would the population waste its time with this ancient
debunct militarily and philosophically destroyed hideous idea. It's much to

(39:44):
their detriment. You were hinting at the story of Amin
al Huseini, a grand Yeah, that's who sort of spread
a bit of Well's I say at one point, if
you follow the trajectory I describe of the post World
War II period on this and it's a very interesting story.

(40:04):
I won't go into the whole thing now, but it's
a fascinating story of how the grand Mufti who went
to Adolf Hitler and said, I'm terribly keen on your ideas.
I'd like to start my own SS battalion in the
Middle East to clear out the Jews there. That he
is accused of war crimes in Europe, we wanted in France,

(40:26):
want of the Yugoslavia, manages to leave through a rather
shady deal and returns home to Egypt to victor. He's
a victor. And that that I mean as an intellectual
an explain, an intellectual journey and explanation of how a
strand of history you might think of it like a

(40:47):
strain of a virus managed to continue to just state
in that region. Don't forget I mean this is this
is routine throughout that region. The day that Adolf Eichmann
was hanged in Israel for being the architect of the Holocaust,

(41:09):
of course, famously kidnapped in South America. When our Aikman
is hanged, the Egyptian papers say that his example is
one that the Muslim people should follow, the Arab nations
should follow, and they should finish his work.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
There is a.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Reason why Nazi war criminals who escaped would, for instance,
go to Syria and help Basha al Asad's Baptist government
run the terror wing of its state. This is a
terrifying part of history in the Middle East in particular,

(41:50):
which is just too little understood, certainly too little understood
in the West. Yeah, and what the West, which is
now important.

Speaker 15 (42:00):
A large number of people from areas where these ideologies are.

Speaker 3 (42:04):
Of course, I mean that's a lot of these students
shouting at Jews at Princeton have come from a region
where it's acceptable to shout at Jews and more and
too many of them have been inculcated in that hatred.

Speaker 4 (42:21):
Not all.

Speaker 3 (42:22):
I know some remarkable Palestinians and others in the West
who have managed to drop this self destructive mindset, but
undoubtedly many others have not.

Speaker 15 (42:34):
To what extent we are potentially about to go through
what some are calling the Lebanonization or of the United
Kingdom of Europe.

Speaker 16 (42:49):
Well, we're already in it, partly.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
As a very powerful moment in a book called Disturbance
published by one of the journalists who survived the Charliebda massacre.
And he reviewed the book where it came out some
years ago. It's a brilliant, long, remorseless work describing the
events in the office. And he was shot in the

(43:13):
jaw and among other places, and spent a long time
in recovery. He was still recovering for the January attack
when the November attacks happened in Paris twenty fifteen as well.
And there's a haunt haunting phrase in that boy he
says after the battle Clan Judastad, the stadium massacre, he says,

(43:37):
the nurse who had been tending him in the hospital
in Paris, dressing his wounds, says, we're going to have
to live. We're going to have to learn to live
like the Lebanese. And to think I used to pity them.

Speaker 15 (43:55):
There does that mean for those who don't know about
what the Lebanonization means or what happened in Iran or
I think Afghanistan? Am I right that we got they
got to points where Islamic powers. Well, is that Islamic
groups came to power? And is that something that we're
facing in the next in four years time for example.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
Well, we already have sort of confessional politics, don't we.
I mean, we have a group of MPs in Parliament
who were elected to the UK Parliament simply because they
stood on a Gaza ticket and riled up the base.
Sow the base grabbed it. Any MP you've spoken to
for years in the UK will tell you that their postbag,

(44:35):
where it relates to foreign affairs, relates to only two things. Really.
One is Israel and the other is sometimes quite often Kashmir,
for understandable reasons, because Britain has a lot of Indians
and a lot of Pakistanis, and so the Kashmir question
becomes a question in Britain and the There's a reason

(44:58):
why our capital city and other cities have been shut
down week after week in the last eighteen months by
the hate marchers, and it's because we have a lot
of people here who are immantally riled up whenever the
Jews fight, and particularly riled up when the Jews win.
They aren't there there.

Speaker 15 (45:17):
You've made a point recently, I can't remember I saw
you talking about this. I've seen you on a few things.
Stop me if I repeat myself. No, no, genuinely, there's
different audiences. They're all different, slightly different audiences. But that
point you may you make about they.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
Can't stand losing to a Jew, that's worse than many
more deaths in Syrian civil wars, all of those things.
Of course, I mean London was not shut week after
week during the Syrian Civil War, in which.

Speaker 16 (45:47):
For more than a decade. The number of deaths that
have happened that.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
If you take the highest if you take Hamas's own numbers,
which I don't, but if you take Hamaz's own numbers
of the dead in Gaza, which they say fifty thousand,
they've just diminished that. Of course that includes their terrorists,
but they don't admit that bit. If the highest figure

(46:15):
that Hamaz puts out for Gaza in the last eighteen
months of about fifty thousand deaths, which is terrible, and
I get it somewhere between. You know, there's certainly been
civilian deaths, no doubt about that. It always happens in war.
It's terrible. But if you take that highest number that
Hamaz points out, that's less than an average six months

(46:37):
in the syrianceivil war. So why why those streets of
London are not shut down by people objecting to that?
Why the three to four hundred thousand people killed in Yemen?
Why that nothing? Why as your protest today I saw

(46:59):
in London and outside of the Sudanese embassy, but the
streets of London and Manchester and Glasgow do not get
shut down by people objecting to the actual deanocide going
on in Sudan. So obviously it's because as Jews are involved.

Speaker 15 (47:18):
Obviously, Well that's why I ask you about that. What's
going to happen in the next few years. I'm Jewish,
my family is, and we're thinking bloody hell, and we
are genuinely having those conversations on Friday night dinner or
whatever it might be, where we say, where would we go?
And I've mentioned that before, and then a lot of
the sort of dissident right so to speak, say, ah,
you see, because you're Jewish, you're not part of us,
you would just flee And I said, well, hang on,

(47:40):
I'm not fleeing. I'm putting my face to this. And
you know, when you're an anonymous Twitter troll or whatever. Yeah,
And I said that, and somebody said, yeah, well I
would lose my job. And I'm going, well, yes, do
you get it? Then, don't you? I'd lose my life.
So we're sitting here going okay, well maybe Argentina. Is
there a way to get a visa to go back there?
As America? Would that be the place to go? Can

(48:00):
you foresee in our lifetime or in sometime soon? Because
in Iran they got in and then killed all the
left who helped them get in.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
Is that right? A communists and trade unionists who inadvertently
helped the Harmonists to power. Yeah, they were massacred in
the prisons of Tehran and elsewhere in the eighties by
people including somebody who lives in Harrow. Wow, So can

(48:29):
that happen here? Everything can happen, do you foresee it?
I'm careful about the future. I said almost everything I
had to say about that subject in my book The
Strange Death of Europe, which I wrote almost ten years ago. Now,
I gave every warning I could.

Speaker 15 (48:49):
I didn't know, I mean in your but you mentioned
I think humsu Yusaf his opponent Kate Forbes.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
What happened with her? I didn't know about this. Oh
that's remarkable. Yeah, Kate Forbes is at a Scottish Nationalist
and yes she was running for the head of the
SNB at the same time as hamsa Usef, who was,
of course a bridge devout Muslim married to Palestinian, which

(49:15):
obviously has colored his own views on lots of things.
I just thought I mentioned in passing because it was
very interesting to be Cape Forbes was lambastarded for the
fact that the church of which she's a member does
not have Stonewall's views on gay marriage. Stone Wall didn't

(49:36):
have used to have Stonewall's views on gay marriage. I
mean when I was arguing for gay marriage many years
ago before it was legalized, Miss stone Walls said it
wasn't a priority, but they were anyway. The point is
is that Cape Forbes, her church does not have the
most progressive views on lgbt Q I A plus question
mark issues. She was ambassad for it. Somebody it sounded

(50:00):
like I could not be in public life. Remember that
hopeless man who used to run the Liberal Democrats. Oh gosh,
I mean we could be here all day listing them,
but you remember the one that Tim Farron he was
He's a Christian again, a pretty devout sect, and because

(50:23):
he has theological opposition to you know, gay stuff, he
couldn't do an interview like he was trying desperately when
he's doing interview rounds to talk about something other than
gay sex, and everyone was just asking him about gay
sex because they wanted to nail him on being this
careful and the phrasing there. They wanted to nail him

(50:44):
on this whole issue of you know, are you this
Christian bigot? Nobody, nobody applied the same standards when it
came to Hawn's use of and the minute he becomes
SMP leader he leads a prayer to Mecca in his office.

(51:06):
Most about it on social media. Must be the first
time that people, you know, this has happened in the
office of the first Minister and this sort of thing,
and does that repeatedly throughout his extremely unsuccessful time in
the leadership of Scottish politics. I find this an amazing
double standard. If Kate Forbes had got into office despite

(51:29):
the slurs and the slurry of a probrium which was
pushed onto her and I've met her by him and
she's a lovely, lovely person and she would have been
great in Scottish politics. She could have actually addressed some
things that the Scots need to have addressed, like instead
of involving themselves in the Middle East conflict, maybe they

(51:49):
could have, for instance, stopped drug overdoses in the East
end of Glasgow would be helpful. They don't seem to
care about the East end of Glasgow, east end of
cars Well, that's a different matter for them. But arms
the use of this is what he did. If Kate
Forbes had come into office, been elected First Minister head
of the SMP, and immediately celebrated the Eucharist in the office,

(52:12):
I submit that the Scottish press and others would have
gone bananas. We've got we've got a religious fundamentalist.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
And why this?

Speaker 3 (52:22):
Why this? You know, it's one thing if a society
wants to be open and tolerant and all of that,
and I'm for all of that. It's another thing not
to take your own side or your traditions into account
and actually want to spit on them, and never celebrate

(52:47):
anything that is ours, but celebrate everything that is historically
not been because it's cool. It's more than there. Mhm,
it's more than the cool. It's a bit of it,
but cool plus some very ugly other things, such as

(53:11):
a form of self criticism that I regard as being
one of the deep bombs underneath liberalism, which is that
self criticism is one of the best aspects of our societies.
Our societies are able to criticize ourselves. Any politician in

(53:33):
the UK can say that, the press to say what
they like, same thing in America. No shortage of criticisms
of the president. And it's not just at that personal level,
at any level we think about things like you know,
there's been the recent debates on very significant moral issues
like euphanasia. Not that we've had many MP's that have

(53:55):
been up to the.

Speaker 16 (53:55):
Moment, but we can do that the self criticism should
we be doing?

Speaker 3 (54:00):
Is this the right thing to do?

Speaker 1 (54:01):
And so on?

Speaker 3 (54:03):
And that also applies to history. I never want to
shut down any historical inquiry. I want more. But there
is a moment when revisionism or revision of your past,
relooking at your past, turns from being self criticism, which
we do and have done, into self laceration, then self flagellation,

(54:28):
and eventually self destruction. It's an extremely careful salami slicing
you've got to do to see where one goes to another.
But I said many years ago, I think in the
strange seuth of Europe that there's a very easy way
to do this fast, which is there's two types of

(54:53):
criticism you can apply to a person or to a country.
There is a criticism of somebody who wants to improve you,
and there is a criticism of somebody who wants to
destroy you. So if I said to you, better example,
if your mother said to you, I trust you have
a good relationship with yours. Yes, very good, good, good,

(55:15):
Josh boy. Yes, I assume a good relationship with your mother.
Your mother wishes you well. If your mother says to
your piece of advice, Darling, I think that jacket you've
been itching to say that, Douglas, I admire your jacket.
But if she was to say to you, I don't

(55:36):
think that jacket looks great on you, you would probably
take it into account. This is a frivolous example, be you,
my but you would regard it in some light because
you know that your mother wishes you well. And the
same with a friend. If a friend says to me,

(55:56):
I don't think you should have done that, or I
do that differently because I know that friend wants to
improve me. But if somebody hates you or me and
attacks your jacket or something I've done, they're not trying
to improve us. Because there's a difference between talking to

(56:18):
somebody as a critic and talking as an enemy. An
enemy will say things about you that are deeply demoralizing,
designed to be demoralizing, and hope that they managed to
demoralize you. Well, yeah, and that's not the same as

(56:39):
a critic. You know. It would be like a critic
in the theater wants to generally speaking, improve the state
of theater and go to better shows every night, but
you would discover quite And then people say, well, what
how do you tell the difference? We all know the difference.
If somebody was a theater critic and every night they
went in and said theat is it shouldn't exist as

(57:01):
an art form. Everyone should go to the football, you'd
know that this person was not a lover of theater.
If somebody speaks to you in your life saying horrible
things and they hate you, that isn't just criticism that

(57:21):
wishes you well. We all know the difference between these
two things, and for some reason, we are so bad
when we know it on a personal level and the
personal experience of our lives, we're so bad at noticing
it societally. Yet, if I went to if my parents
have gone to live in Pakistan, for instance, before I

(57:42):
was born, and I'd been born in Pakistan, and I
spent all my time in Pakistan talking about the ills
of Pakistani history and the wicked things that Pakistani governments
have done, and the terrible things that the Pakistani population
have done, and the miserable rates of this and allingness
of that. And I just did that all the time.

(58:05):
I think people would say, you seem to have a
problem with this country, and they might even say, why
don't you move go somewhere where you'll be happier, But
they but at some point if I said I want
to I want to change everything in this country, I
think the people of Pakistan would have a right to say,
I'm sorry, We're quite happy with what we've got, and

(58:25):
why do we not know how to do that on
the national and cultural level where we know it's so
clearly in our own lives.

Speaker 15 (58:33):
Well, Hamza Usef I think showed it's true colours because
either went on that Rance didn't need the anti white
racist rants, right, I couldn't believe me to be highly racist.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
Unbelievable. Again, if I if I my parents and make
Pakistan and I ended up joining the Pakistani parliam which,
by the way, I couldn't. I mean, one of the.

Speaker 16 (58:51):
Amazing things is asked about our societies.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Is we're gloriously pluralistic, gloriously diverse, and endlessly allow people
just to insult us. But if at the same time
as our society actually providing the ladders by which people
show we are not what they say we are, if
we were the racist society that they say we were,
you wouldn't have a Humasa Usef at the top of politics.

(59:16):
You wouldn't have a Rishi Sunak prime minister, you would
have any of these things they just lie about us.
But just to finish that point, if my parents had
moved to Pakistan and you know some by the grace
of Allah, I managed to get into the parliament, and
I use my time in the parliament to say, I
can't believe how many Pakistani people there are here. Why

(59:40):
are there not more white people? Why do I not
see more of myself? Why am I not reflected more
in this parliament as a pasty white British guy who
burns in the sun very easily? You know why people
would say, what the hell are you doing? Where do
you think you are? It's a very very this very

(01:00:02):
straightforward and at the same time, as I say, salami
sliced thing. What is the point when your virtues get
used against you? When is the point where the virtue
of self criticism turns into a tolerance that is essentially
masochistic in nature?

Speaker 15 (01:00:17):
What would you say to those on the dissident right
or the woke rights are calling it, or the conspiracy
theory riddled right?

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
But these all the same thing, I don't think, so, oh,
let's go.

Speaker 15 (01:00:29):
But those people who say that the attack on Israel
bid from the gardens from Hamas was a false flag
operation by Israel, they let them in on purpose.

Speaker 3 (01:00:42):
That kind they were said about nine to eleven as well. Yeah,
it's always said about. It's always it's always said about.
And Jews are said to be behind everything by morons
and evil people. Yeah, I mean, you know, no Jews
died in the Twin Towers on nine to eleven they say,
and to prove it sense. I mean, just look at

(01:01:03):
the dead from counterfeit Gerald alone.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
They always some as I say, it's a sign of
an abnormality in a person's psyche that they seek to
make these lurid claims against the Jews. I think it's
some kind of it's it's it's a stupid person's way
to try to understand a complicated world. Is one of
the one of the ways. You might say it uncharitably,

(01:01:32):
but I think truthfully, Ah, these are such sick people.
I hear them saying things like, yeah, all the dead
of the seventh were killed by the idea. These are
such morons, evil evil morons. What a thing to say,

(01:01:54):
What a stupid thing to claim against all of the evidence,
because all of the evidence. One of the reasons why
I wrote this book, one of the reasons why I
went to Ismard as soon as I could after the Seventh,
because I knew these people would do this. I knew
it could smell it. They always do it. They always
do it. They will. This is one of the reasons,

(01:02:15):
by the way, one of the reason why I get
first hand testimony from the hospitals, from the morgues, the
prisons of the massacre sites. I knew that these people,
there would be some wicked people out there who would
do this, and I just this is one of the
purposes of this book is to put down what I saw,
what I know, or who I've spoken to. I talk

(01:02:39):
about the military failings, the intelligence failings, manifest failings that
meant that four thousand terrorists were able to invade Israel
on the seventh I talk about that definite security and
intelligence failings. But it was Hams did the massacre. And
the people who would like to pretend no one was

(01:03:01):
massacred or was done by the Israelis or something, these
are just sick, demented people. This is one of the reasons,
by the way, why early in the conflict, when the
Israeli government put out well compiled forty seven minutes, I

(01:03:22):
think it was original. He went down to forty three
minutes of the massacre. Footage that Hamaz took themselves again
has to be stressed. The footage we have from the
seventh is very largely footage recorded by Hamas themselves, because
they're so dumb proud of their work.

Speaker 5 (01:03:38):
This is.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
Like if the Nazis had had go pros in the
nineteen forties and had been live streaming from Buckenwald or
to Blinka. This is this is what Hamaz were doing.
The footage is mainly from them because they're proud, because
they're a deaf cult. But this footage, which I saw

(01:04:03):
early on and was shown to journalists, there's a big
debate inside Israel and out about whether that I just
unbelievably horrific footage should be made publicly available. And it's
a very interesting, it was a very interesting moral as

(01:04:25):
well as strategic conundrum. Some of the video, much of
the videos can be seen online, but there's stuff which
couldn't be and there were some there were things like
you know the version I saw, there were you know,
there was one baby who was murdered very brutally and
in particular whose mother asked for the footage to be
removed from the versions in future showing the journalists. And

(01:04:48):
that's their right. And my view was always if any
of the families don't want it out there, shouldn't be
out there. Yeah, and that's a perfectly normal request. Is
like Daniel Pearl's parents, the Wall three journal report, who
was beheaded by Archaeda by actually a graduate of the
London School of Economics, Mr Shaikh in two thousand and two,

(01:05:10):
two thousand and one, two and two he his last moments,
as g had Is did with others, were recorded so
that they could show how proud they were beheading a Jew.
And Daniel Pell's parents, of course, spent years trying to
make sure that that video was not being pumped around
online because can you imagine with twelve hundred people killed

(01:05:32):
on the seventh October, many more injured, two hundred and
fifty kidnapped and taken into guards as hostages. I thought
it was the right of families who did not want
the last moments that I loved ones to be seen
to have their feelings respected. But I had another reason
why I thought that what I saw in that footage
should not get a wider viewing. And that was that

(01:05:55):
I said to friends whenever we debated this, I said,
you just you bet that if this was released online,
there will be sickos who immediately will be doing what
they've been doing for decades with the Holocaust. The sickos,
the warped minded perverts will say that the you know,

(01:06:18):
the shovel that the Hamaz guy is holding as he's
trying to behead a young man on the floor and
shouts alou akba with every blow. They'll say that, oh,
you know, the shadow of the shovel doesn't fit the
shadow of the thing, and therefore false flag or something.
They'll do that.

Speaker 16 (01:06:38):
And I just thought it is also fresh, all so recent,
also painful.

Speaker 3 (01:06:43):
Who wants to put beloved ones of those murdered people
through that additional, additional horror? And yeah, but these people
are around, they are they look in the woodsheds of
our societies. The job is to make sure they stay there.
In a way.

Speaker 15 (01:07:03):
There are echoes of what you're saying in Christopher Hitchin's
hitch twenty two when he describes waking up after nine
to eleven, I believe he was in New York and
being astounded to see that people already were blaming America,
not necessarily blaming the Jews at that point, but blaming America.

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
That was sort of his waking up points to. That's
when he said, I think he had forgotten that. Yeah,
he said, what was it? He said, is everything I
loved and being attacked by everything I hated. That's right,
that's right. It's scary. How much it repeats itself and
it's still going on. I wish he was still here
and we'd be having that conversation with him. Why does

(01:07:39):
Israel uniquely.

Speaker 15 (01:07:41):
Face this proportionality attack? And I want to at the
same time ask why the UN has more resolutions against Israel.
You described Turkey and it's what is it? Annexations out
the world of occupation of northern Cyprus. No one seems
to be bothered, is it right? Natasha Hausdorff was saying
that there's more against, more resolutions against Israel than all
the other in the world combined.

Speaker 3 (01:08:01):
Yeah, I believe. Yeah. Well, there's an old joke that
I repeated recently in my Common Spectator that the United
Nations should have a football team and.

Speaker 16 (01:08:13):
I'm sure who were they playing?

Speaker 3 (01:08:15):
Israel? Of course? Yeah, of course. The look at the
UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, an utter asylum outbreak,
if ever there was one. You know, I think the
Uranian Revolutionary government once again recently got put in charge
of the of the Women's Rights Commission shuts up. Did

(01:08:37):
that happen? Yeah, that's that stuff is always happening. Uh,
you know, just the most ghastly backward anti women, you know,
anti minority countries on Earth will routinely be put in
charge of the you know, the sort of future of
children projects, kid? Do you not? Like everyone are going

(01:09:00):
to look it up though, are just so many absurd examples.
It's the norm of the Human Rights Council, and it's
the norm at the.

Speaker 16 (01:09:09):
UN in New York that horrible countries and.

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):
Horrible despotisms show up at the UN and to fame Israel.
But this is like, this is an old story. You know,
the famous nineteen seventy five UN resolution Zionism is Racism,
which flat out wrong. Anti Zionism, I believe is a

(01:09:34):
form of racism. But the nineteen seventy five Zionism is
Racism resolution, which point the great, late great democrat, the
Senator Daniel Patrick moyntan gave one of the speeches of
his career. What a speech.

Speaker 10 (01:09:51):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
It says, I stand before you and the world to
say that what happened today is an abomination. And the
it says for America will not buy it by it
and will not you know, it's it's a magnificent amount
and people can look it up. But that resolution claiming

(01:10:12):
that zion is the idea that the Jewish people have
a right to that to a state in their ancestral homeland,
that that is racist. It was proposed, if I remember rightly,
by idiot, I mean yea the wife eater, among other things,

(01:10:32):
which on a technical copy editing thing is one of
the most pleasing things in my life. And I want
to described him as a wife eater. I had a
copy editor say, you must mean must be beta. I
wrote about a last not no, there's no b but
idiot mean in respect for that lurid story, the one

(01:10:54):
of the most brutal death spots of his time. A psychopath,
a clear famous, notorious level. Even people in ninety seventy
five knew that they knew they mean with a ghoul
and a mass murderer. And he proposes the resolution and

(01:11:14):
do you know, through the drinks party to celebrate the
passing of the resolution, Kurt Waldheim, formerly of the Essay,
Yeah Gosh, one time president of Austria son just reister.

(01:11:35):
So you have an African warlord, thug and a former
Nazi celebrating the defamation of the Jewish state at the
United Nations. For many of us since then, I find
what the United Nations says on something's interesting. I don't
doubt that some of its wings do a lot of good.

(01:11:56):
A lot of it is pernicious evil. Is there anything
we can do about that? About the UN? Well, yeah,
the UN is the UN. I mean, I've come to
a conclusion that you know, you could get out and
set up something similar, but it will always sort of
go in a similar way. And there's a reason for that,
is Kirkpatrick Wyner and others identified forty years ago, which

(01:12:19):
is that since most of the countries and United Nations
are not the same as you know, the democracies, or
at least many of them are not, and there will
always be a bias against the liberal democracies. You've got

(01:12:42):
fifty of the oh I see almost of Islamic corporation
countries that always vote the way they do, always an Israel,
always anti Western. And you you have all the Taro
terranisms of the world, all the dictatorships you have flown

(01:13:05):
me a Putin's dictatorship in Russia, You've got the Chinese
Communist Party. So I've always thought that although the UN
is a useful place to meet, people should not cite
its judgments as being as if they were the judgment
of God, because they're not. They are judgments by highly flawed,

(01:13:26):
often wicked actors.

Speaker 15 (01:13:28):
I think while the left often accuses the right of
being supremacist in some way, white supremacist or whatever, I
started thinking that there might be a sort of supremacist
feeling on the left, because there seems to be this
idea that our culture almost like the end of evolution,
as if evolution had an end goal, which it doesn't. Like,
if we just give money and resources to these places
and to these ideologies, they'll turn out like us and
everything will be fine.

Speaker 3 (01:13:50):
Do you think that's maybe misguided of them. I think
that the recently Let's a new criterion about the about
the lamentable hannaharrand essay come book I Command in Jerusalem
and Study on the Banality of Evil, and I mentioned
in I mentioned in that that it seems to me

(01:14:13):
that the capacity to use the term evil seems to
have disappeared in our era, and obviously something I've thought
about and seen a lot in recent years. In particular,
I believe that there is such a force as evil
in the world, and that even if you don't think

(01:14:33):
you need for theological framework or language to use that term.
You'll find someday that you will. What I mean by
that is really one of the reasons why we're bad
at at using the term.

Speaker 5 (01:14:48):
Is that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
There has been a presumption for some time in the
era of secularization, which I just am saying un weighted
as a phrase for now, there has been a period
in the period of cialization in which we, with many people,
have come to the idea that there's no such thing
as evil. There's just sort of people we haven't understood.

Speaker 16 (01:15:08):
Enough yet, or you know, maybe they had a bad childhood.

Speaker 3 (01:15:14):
Most people have bad childhoods, and yet they somehow managed
to refrain from firing RPGs at their neighbors.

Speaker 4 (01:15:21):
The the the.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
Loss of this turb it's everywhere in the culture. Look
at any Netflix drama, look at any documentary about a
serial killer or something. There's always that. Any book about
a serial killer, everyone wants to know and it is
very interesting, of course, because these are pathological outriders in
the in the grand scheme of things, thank god, but
we want to know how they came about. And there

(01:15:49):
is a sort of presumption with you know, a Fred
West or a Jeffrey Dahmer or something that you will
be able to find it. And it's fascinating and it's
it's a very deep human desire. And yet, as I
quote Guita Serene in a way, anyone who's covered war

(01:16:10):
or conflict and atrocities are much more. In the end,
you sort of can't help but think that there is
a force that is evil in the world. And maybe
it's born in people, maybe it's developed in people, maybe
it comes down on the occasion. Maybe most like it's

(01:16:30):
in the heart of everyone, and that's what disturbs us
about it. But yeah, we the reluctance to use this
term on the left in particular, means that there is
this There are these sets of presumption, such as if
the living standards only improve, and yet there are billions

(01:16:55):
of people in the world who have terrible living standards.
They do not decapitate their neighbors. There are billions of
people in the wild who live in misery, but they
do not seek to create misery in others. I think
it's such an insult, just as so many people, it's

(01:17:18):
an insult about anything else that the Palestinian people that
these people pretend to care about and are merely using
as a proxy for their own bigotries. Most of the time,
in my view, it's a sign of theirs that they
they really think that the Palestinians can't help it, or
that they're pushed and there's no other way, And what

(01:17:40):
would you do in this situation. That's one I hear
quite often. I have an answer to it. By the way,
it's worth throwing out there. When the Israelis withdrew from Gaza,
tore every last Jew from their homes and even dug
up the bodies of Jews from the graveyards and took
them into Israel. In two thousand and five, Gaza was

(01:18:01):
handed over to the Palestinians. They were given a state,
and they could have used the billions of dollars that
poured in from taxpayers in the UK taxpayers and the
US taxpayers and the EU and much more. They could
have used the billions of dollars to create a thriving,
thriving part of the Mediterranean. Gaza before the Seventh October

(01:18:25):
was pretty good. Actually, the living standards were much better
than most countries in the region. I've seen lovely videos
or tourys videos. Yeah, it was, it was quite nice. Actially,
it was I mean, you know, the luxury restaurants and
all sorts of things. But the billions of dollars that
poured in were used by the leadership of Hamaz, who
the voters of Gaza voted in, and they used them

(01:18:49):
to enrich themselves. Every as I mentioned in the book,
every Palestinian leader who's died an early death in the
last eighteen months died a billionaire. Every dollar that came in,
every euro, have a bit of stone that came into
Gaza could have been used to improve the lives of

(01:19:09):
the Palestinian people, build a good state with good governance
that did not teach its children to annihilate their neighbors.
And today the whole story of Israel and the whole
story of the Palestinian people in Gaza would be utterly different.
But they chose a different way. They chose to prioritize

(01:19:34):
the killing of their neighbors and the nurturing of hate
about their neighbors over the teaching of peace and coexistence
with their neighbors. And people say to me things like, well,
you know, wouldn't you fire rockets if you were in Gaza? No,
I think I'd tried to restrain from that temptation, Thank

(01:19:55):
you very much. I think I would try. I think
I would try to make sure that guards and children
born after two thousand and five got the eighteen years
until twenty twenty three to become really impressive in education
and in learning and in development and much more and
creative things. Yet they took a different way. They took

(01:20:19):
a different way, And the brutal truth of it is
that there is a price to pay for voting in
a terrorist group that repeatedly starts wars of annihilation against
its neighbor and loses. And in the whole history of warfare,

(01:20:41):
if you keep starting aggressive wars against your neighbors and
lose them, you lose territory and much more. And that's
a very unfortunate, sad aspect on top of many other
unfortunate and sad aspects about the region.

Speaker 15 (01:20:57):
On that note, I think there's that feeling on left
that if Garza had the money and the wherewithal, they'd
all be sort of like the West. But there's fifty
countries around it that are Muslim and don't allow gay rights,
don't allow women to be treated me.

Speaker 3 (01:21:10):
Yes, we shouldn't. Yeah, I don't like to prioritize it
were liberal rights over everything that we just let's just
say that, I mean, just go to living standards or
the ethos, the guiding ethos. Salman Rushti, who has been
a lifelong supporter of the Palestinian cause, recently said in

(01:21:31):
an interview that he by now, he said, you can't
come out with any other conclusion than that if there
was another state given to the Palestinians, that it would
just at best be another Iranian revolutionary government front state.
In the Middle East, they I mean, it's the same

(01:21:52):
in Judare and Samaria. In the West Bank. It's a
less violent group Fata. They have the same aims. They
want to annihilated all of Israel. But they have the
same aims as Hammas, but different a different clock. You
might say. They use the money that comes in to

(01:22:13):
enrich themselves and to reward terrorists and to pay terrorists.
If the terrorist who kills Jews goes to prison or
if he dies, the Palestinian authority has a budget to
pay more money to the terrorists or the family of

(01:22:34):
the terrorists, depending on how many Jews they've managed to kill,
and the payment goes up per due. That's what our
taxpayer money goes to and so all these idiots who
think you just pour money in, all you're doing is
pouring money into luxury apartments in Kata, into the rewarding

(01:22:57):
of terrorism, and the indoctrination of the next generation into
an utterly, utterly self destructive belief, which is a belief
that they can kill their neighbors instead of living with them.

Speaker 15 (01:23:09):
And that's true evil. As you know, what was great woman? Yeah,
I thought that was a really interesting part of your book, actually,
the comparison of a rent and and I.

Speaker 3 (01:23:20):
Wish that Seni was better knownly that she was when
I'm a great, great hero when I was starting out
as a writer and wrote one of the great books
on evil, with several of them. Actually, Into that Darkness
is the one that I referred to there, which is unbelievable.

Speaker 15 (01:23:36):
Let me ask you, it was going to sound maybe flippant,
but I think it's important. You have a great speaking voice,
and that's important to be able to convey a message.

Speaker 3 (01:23:46):
Did that does that come to you naturally? What as
a fifteen year old did you speak that? Everybody who
listens to you Interean Douglas Murray look at it, Gosh,
he's got a wonderful voice. Where where does that come from?
Somewhere my larring?

Speaker 18 (01:24:01):
But there must be an awareness of it. You're aware
of the voice you have. I'm not especially I'm I
really spend very very little time thinking about myself.

Speaker 3 (01:24:13):
I mean I spend I don't think about what people
think about me or what my voice. Now you've made
me incredibly self conscious about my voice.

Speaker 15 (01:24:25):
You know you shouldn't be, and we're conveying the mess.
I look at people like that. I look at Jordan Peterson.
He's got an interesting voice and a great way of speaking.

Speaker 3 (01:24:33):
A very talented communicator. Jordan Obama as well, whether you're communicator,
Obama's a superb orator.

Speaker 16 (01:24:40):
One of the things that they and you sometimes do
is you leave these gaps.

Speaker 15 (01:24:43):
And I think it's having the confidence to do that
because I feel everything and maybe almost like a Woody
Allen anxiety of just this a whereas you guys, you go,
you stop and you think, and people just and the
weight of the moment it is conveyed.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
I don't think I do that consciously. I almost left
a pause before that. I don't think I do that consciously.
I think that maybe maybe it's maybe it's consoling to
see people thinking on their feet. I think that's probably.

(01:25:18):
I know, I know there's a false There are lots
of false means of communication, but one of the ones
that is it strikes me as pretty false, is you
can tell when someone is over practiced about something. There's
a brilliant woman I won't name her, but who very
skilled communicator. But I remember hearing her speak some years ago,
and she had everything was too practiced that she was saying.

(01:25:40):
And then I asked myself, what about that? And then
and I just jarred with me. So one of the
worst things you can as an interviewer as well as
interviewee on a cage, and I raise one of the
worst thing somebody can say is well, I always answer

(01:26:00):
that question this way because it immediately communicates you're always
asked the same dumb things and it's so boring. Yeah,
but I love hearing that's a wonderful question. I haven't
I haven't considered that before. And yeah, of course I
haven't said that yet though I wasn't going to. But
you've got a nice speaking for us. Well, thank you,
that's why we do what we do. Well, No, it's

(01:26:21):
not but it's a superficial aspect of it. But whilst
we're on the point, we can, of course plug the
fact that the audiobook of On Democracies and Deaficulty is
available on Audible and is read by me. Well that's
my next question because I got one more question for you.

Speaker 15 (01:26:36):
But this one is where can people get hold I mean,
obviously you know the places, but where can they get
hold of this wonderful book?

Speaker 3 (01:26:42):
So you can buy On Democracies and Deaf Cults at
any place where books are sold. I don't know. There
might be a bookshop in Brighton that no platform me
but more for them. No, you can buy it in
any bookshop in the UK. You can have by Watson's

(01:27:03):
in the US as a Noble everywhere in the world.
You can buy it on Amazon dot com, dot co
dot UK. You can buy it on Audible read by me,
and you can also get it on Kindle of course
if you'd like an ebook, if that's your thing, you
think it might be. That's how I read it. There
you go, Yeah, how was it?

Speaker 15 (01:27:25):
It's brilliant and I mean it gave me nightmare, as
it should sometimes. I think you should have meant this
as a Kindle version not have as a book.

Speaker 3 (01:27:31):
That's probably very similar to the book now. I never
read on Kindle because I'm a bibliomania, of course.

Speaker 16 (01:27:37):
I mean you travel a lot, though, and I know
I travel with a heavy.

Speaker 3 (01:27:40):
Bag of books. Oh that's mad. I know. You know
I moved to Kindle and I've never looked back.

Speaker 18 (01:27:44):
I know.

Speaker 3 (01:27:45):
I just I love seeing books have read on the shelves.
Of course, because you know you walk back to me.
I forgot. I knew that.

Speaker 5 (01:27:51):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:27:52):
It's a nice feeling mine. It's one. You know, that's
your book, that's my book. Yeah, give me one.

Speaker 15 (01:27:57):
I'll tell you, well, I will. Then I'll tell you
about the Don't talk about it now, no, no, no,
everybody on democracies and death cults, don't. Don't worry about that.

Speaker 3 (01:28:03):
Don't by the wrong but ready for pulp nonsense. Who's
Who's a heretic? You admire Voltaire? One of the great
writers still shines in translation centuries on. Did he say
the thing that was attributed to him? If I disagree

(01:28:25):
with what you say, he didn't actually say it. It's
I disagree with what you say, but I will defend
that My death is right for you to say it. No,
he didn't say it. It's a later summary of what
was a Voltaian philosophy. I don't think he would count
as a heretic quite, but you might say that in

(01:28:49):
the realm of writing he was breaking the norms of
his day. I would say Montaigne surely one of the
great writing heroes of all time. I am you do
have your read his essays oh years ago, you know,
because it's such an extraordinary form. He's a ratical in

(01:29:10):
that he he sits in his library surrounded by books
and writes these essays on everything and just sort of
things like you know what it's like to die? And
why we weep and laugh at the same time as
one of my favorites, and just vignette things, but an

(01:29:31):
essay form, which is so gloriously readable. And but yes,
he broke he broke the literary form. He made a
literary form in a way. And he a late friend
of mine who is a professor of philosophy at Oxford
and was a very close friend of Isaia. But lind

(01:29:51):
It told me some years ago that the dinner party game,
you know, who would you like to have a dinner party?
From history and I sort of thing. He was playing
that once with Isaiah but Lin. Then, as I have
Lind said, I didn't play the game. Who do you
like to have a dinner with any historical figure? Of course,
you can't choose Montane. Thinking everyone would choose Montane.

Speaker 15 (01:30:10):
Interesting, I think a lot of people would choose you.
A lot of people say Ricky Gervace these days.

Speaker 3 (01:30:18):
He's a brilliant comic writer and performer. But his writing
is amazing. I've got to get him on this show,
and he should do.

Speaker 16 (01:30:28):
He follows the Twitter of the show.

Speaker 3 (01:30:30):
So who know You're almost in there? Yeah, I hope.
So people please go and get douglas wonderful book. I
put a link below to one of the many places
you can get it Kindle Audio Hardback.

Speaker 15 (01:30:41):
It's unbelievably good. So please, I actually want you to
read this, So please go and read it. Hit the
light button, keep watching this channel.

Speaker 5 (01:31:24):
Pass to break the pain. They are the people talking
when they come to say you think you bot, you
take you to think of the Trinity, look in the mirror,
free yourself and let dot see. Just let the class
break the pain. These go the dot people bucking when
they come you say you think you boy, you did

(01:31:44):
you toting goldbrinityjok in the mirror.

Speaker 19 (01:31:47):
Free yourselfing that just then of the man assist and
I watched the chassless lie listen, but I'm not going class.

Speaker 6 (01:31:58):
That's not only mind from miss I've been permitting.

Speaker 2 (01:32:01):
Meditating with the mind that you're raking in the can.

Speaker 10 (01:32:05):
With last home, my last, this one is.

Speaker 5 (01:32:07):
Doing with God the play. It's not I lost my mind,
but I.

Speaker 6 (01:32:12):
Myself, for I've been child motivate.

Speaker 2 (01:32:16):
The cript for life as the designed her.

Speaker 8 (01:32:19):
I love the tables I talked up.

Speaker 2 (01:32:21):
This is no accident.

Speaker 5 (01:32:22):
Life's not a consequences no, so I must repay that
my find flow.

Speaker 6 (01:32:27):
I see the glass flow. We're both playing so but God.

Speaker 2 (01:32:31):
Having same though it's all the same now used.

Speaker 1 (01:32:35):
To play.

Speaker 5 (01:32:49):
Poking yourself and the doctor just then you pass, you break.

Speaker 2 (01:33:01):
The pain, the modeople.

Speaker 5 (01:33:03):
Walking when they come in, they say, you think you more,
you think you ting go?

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):
You don't the mayor bring yourself and let the dot
to see.

Speaker 5 (01:33:12):
Just let the doctor say, if freaking your name, set
free and say, dad, the mist expendable motions coming to
see nothing less again.

Speaker 2 (01:33:22):
The gravest man. I'm looking to the taste next so wonderful.
But if first part you're ready to give first what
you don't want to do made, I have to chase
my fu left rather and you'll be willing.

Speaker 3 (01:33:31):
To be resilient in this throw.

Speaker 13 (01:33:32):
You meaning what you need to win a little bit
of buto, sweat and set when you wouldn't just so tu,
I'll just trust make your cream lipid, crimson.

Speaker 3 (01:33:39):
Bluehood along your bed.

Speaker 5 (01:33:41):
That practated my head?

Speaker 2 (01:33:42):
What did it be better? But I just resistance?

Speaker 5 (01:33:45):
Just you wear on rails tipt complin.

Speaker 2 (01:33:49):
You're contplinting the net to prection, then.

Speaker 5 (01:33:52):
Pushing the power frost.

Speaker 2 (01:33:53):
You didn't have to.

Speaker 3 (01:33:54):
See the control had just set your side.

Speaker 2 (01:34:00):
Lay or the boss.

Speaker 5 (01:34:01):
So what's just to be wearing the boy just to stir.

Speaker 2 (01:34:04):
The telty side unting forty doll until the dot is CONSUMPTI.

Speaker 5 (01:34:08):
Past if you great the pain they over dot You
don gouging when they come to the saying do you
think you got you? Take you something going.

Speaker 2 (01:34:16):
Plein a day, talk in the marlor, freak yourself and
let the dot to see, justle the dot to.

Speaker 1 (01:34:22):
See it past.

Speaker 5 (01:34:23):
Great the paint before the dog you go ucking When
they come to the saying you go, you think you something,
Go and breed a day, talk

Speaker 2 (01:34:31):
In the mirror, bring yourself and let the don say
just not the dog sne

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