July 30, 2025 • 53 mins
In this episode of The Guilty Files: True Crime Uncovered, Brian takes us back to the heartland of America—Holcomb, Kansas—where one of the most chilling and senseless mass murders in U.S. history occurred. On the night of November 15, 1959, four members of the Clutter family were brutally murdered in their own home, sending shockwaves through a tight-knit farming community and eventually capturing the nation’s attention.
Brian lays out the cold, hard facts of the case—from the meticulous planning by ex-convicts Perry Smith and Richard Hickock, to the terrifying final hours of Herbert, Bonnie, Nancy, and Kenyon Clutter.
We follow the timeline of events that led up to the murders, the aftermath that devastated the town, and the cross-country manhunt that brought the killers to justice.You’ll hear about the calculated cruelty behind the crime, the seemingly motiveless brutality, and the forensic and investigative work that cracked the case wide open.
Brian also touches on how this horrific story caught the eye of author Truman Capote, who would later immortalize it in his genre-defining nonfiction novel In Cold Blood.This episode is a sobering look at the violence that can lurk behind a calm exterior—and a stark reminder that no place, no matter how peaceful, is ever truly safe from evil.
Content Warning: This episode contains detailed descriptions of a home invasion and the murder of multiple family members, including a minor.
🎧 Available now on all major podcast platforms.
📚 Based on real case files and firsthand accounts.
🔍 Follow @TheGuiltyFiles for more behind-the-scenes content.
Brian lays out the cold, hard facts of the case—from the meticulous planning by ex-convicts Perry Smith and Richard Hickock, to the terrifying final hours of Herbert, Bonnie, Nancy, and Kenyon Clutter.
We follow the timeline of events that led up to the murders, the aftermath that devastated the town, and the cross-country manhunt that brought the killers to justice.You’ll hear about the calculated cruelty behind the crime, the seemingly motiveless brutality, and the forensic and investigative work that cracked the case wide open.
Brian also touches on how this horrific story caught the eye of author Truman Capote, who would later immortalize it in his genre-defining nonfiction novel In Cold Blood.This episode is a sobering look at the violence that can lurk behind a calm exterior—and a stark reminder that no place, no matter how peaceful, is ever truly safe from evil.
Content Warning: This episode contains detailed descriptions of a home invasion and the murder of multiple family members, including a minor.
🎧 Available now on all major podcast platforms.
📚 Based on real case files and firsthand accounts.
🔍 Follow @TheGuiltyFiles for more behind-the-scenes content.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Thank you Dogging A.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome back to The Guilty Files, the podcast where every
case gets a second look, a deeper dive, and two
distinct takes that keep you coming back for more. I'm
your host, Brian, and I'm here to bring you the unfiltered,
no nonsense breakdown of this week's crime. A little about me,
I've spent sixteen years in law enforcement, with ten of
(00:30):
those years pounding the pavement as a beat cop in
the streets of Atlanta. I've seen crime up close, the chaos,
the aftermath, and the cold, hard truths that never make
the headlines. That's why my focus is simple. I'll take
you through the facts of the case step by step
with nothing left to speculation. But that's only half of
(00:52):
what we do here. My co host Danny is your
guide to the other side of the story. He dives
into the untold possibility, uncovers hidden motives, and imagines the
what ifs that make you question everything you thought you knew. Together,
we bring you two unique perspectives on every case, because
in true crime, the truth is rarely as simple as
(01:13):
it seems. Every week we promise you this two cops,
one crime, two stories told. If you're a fan of
the details, the drama, and the darker side of human nature.
You're in for a ride, So grab your headphones, lock
the door, and let's get into the Guilty Files, where
every case comes with a twist and the truth is
(01:34):
just the beginning. If you've ever driven through western Kansas,
you know how the wheat fields seem to go on forever.
Back in November nineteen fifty nine, a family living in
those fields thought they had life figured out. The Clutters
were doing well, successful farm, respected in the community, four
(01:57):
kids who were turning out pretty good. Then two guys
showed up in the middle of the night and killed
them all. What happened to the Clutter family changed everything
about how Americans thought about being safe in their own homes.
It inspired one of the most famous true crime books
ever written, and more than sixty years later, we're still
trying to understand why it happened. Herb Clutter was born
(02:20):
in nineteen eleven in Rosal, Kansas. His family farmed like
pretty much everyone in that part of Kansas back then.
From the start, Herb was the kind of kid who
seemed destined to do well. Good with numbers, could get
people to listen to him, worked hard without complaining about it.
He went to Kansas State to study agriculture. That's where
(02:41):
he met Bonnie Fox, who was studying nursing. She was
from Garden City, came from a family with a bit
more money than the Clutters. They got married in nineteen
thirty five, right in the middle of the depression, when
nobody had any money and starting a farm seemed like
a crazy idea, but Herb made it work. He started
out working for other farmers, learning everything he could, saving
(03:03):
every penny. Eventually he bought River Valley Farm outside Holcombe.
By nineteen fifty nine, he'd built it up to over
one thousand acres. This wasn't some hard scrabble operation.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Herb had the.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Latest equipment, used modern techniques, made good money. He wasn't
just a farmer either. He was on the Federal Farm
Credit Board, spoke at agricultural conferences, helped other farmers figure
out better ways to do things. People respected him. He
paid his workers well, treated them fairly. The Clutters were Methodists,
went to church every Sunday, didn't drink, didn't swear. Herb
(03:39):
was exactly what people meant when they talked about pillars
of the community. They had four kids, at Viana in
nineteen thirty six, Beverly in nineteen thirty nine, Nancy in
nineteen forty three, and Kenyon in nineteen forty four. By
nineteen fifty nine, the two older girls had already left home.
Herb was forty eight years old and had pretty much
(04:01):
everything he'd hoped for. Successful farm, respected position in the community,
family doing well. He'd played by all the rules and won.
Bonnie Fox was born in nineteen fourteen into a Garden
City family that had money and made sure their kids
got culture along with education.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
She could play.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Piano, had a nice singing voice, was smart enough to
go into nursing school. When she married Herb, everyone figured
it was a good match, two capable people who'd build
something together. For years, That's exactly what happened. Bonnie ran
the household, taught the kid's music, was active at church.
She was that kind of mother who made sure her
(04:41):
kids learned about art and books, not just farming. Everything
seemed fine. Then after Kenyon was born in nineteen forty four,
something went wrong. Maybe it was what we'd now call
postpartum depression. Maybe it was being isolated on a farm.
Whatever it was, Bonnie started having what people called nervous spells.
(05:01):
At first, it was just bad days.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Here and there. Then it got worse. By the nineteen.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Fifties, she was seriously depressed. The Clutters had money, so
they sent her to the best doctors. She went to
the Meninger Clinic in Topeka, which was supposed to be
the top psychiatric hospital in the country. She tried different medications,
different treatments, nothing really helped. By nineteen fifty nine, she
spent most of her time in bed. The woman who
(05:28):
used to play piano for hours couldn't even touch the
keys most days. The family adapted herb never complained, at
least not where anyone could hear. Nancy basically took over
running the house. On Bonnie's good days, she'd cook an
elaborate meal or work in the garden, and everyone would
pretend things were normal. But mostly she stayed in her
(05:49):
room fighting something the doctors couldn't fix. Nancy was sixteen
and nineteen fifty nine, and she was one of those
teenagers who seemed to be good at everything. Straight a student,
class president, played clarinet in the band. Her pies won
blue ribbons at the county fair. She taught Sunday school,
tutored other kids, led four h groups. If that sounds
(06:11):
like too much, well, Nancy somehow made it work. She
kept these detailed notebooks for every activity, never missed a deadline.
Teachers loved her, other kids liked her. Even though she
was so accomplished, she wasn't stuck up about it. She'd
been dating Bobby Rupp for about a year. He was
on the basketball team, she was class president. It was
(06:32):
that kind of high school relationship. Herb had strict rules
about dating. Bobby could only come over certain nights, could
only be in certain parts of the house. Nancy followed
the rules without complaining. With her mother six so much,
Nancy basically ran the household. She cooked, cleaned, made sure
Kenyon had clean clothes for school. She was sixteen and
(06:54):
doing a grown woman's job on top of everything else.
Her friend said she never complained about it, it was
just what needed to be done. She planned to go
to Kansas State like her parents, maybe study music or teaching.
She kept a diary where she wrote about normal teenage stuff, boys, friends,
dreams about seeing the world. She also wrote about coming
(07:15):
back to Kansas, eventually having a family of her own.
She had her whole life mapped out. Kenyon was fifteen,
the baby of the family and the only boy. Where
Nancy was outgoing and involved in everything, Kenyon was quiet,
preferred working alone. He was tall and skinny, wore glasses,
looked like the smart kid he was. The kid could
(07:37):
build anything. From the time he was little, he was
taking things apart to see how they worked. Herb set
up a whole workshop for him in the basement. Kenyan
would spend hours down there building furniture, fixing engines, working
on projects. The stuff he built wasn't just functional, it
was beautiful. He had real talent.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
At school.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
He did fine, especially in math and science, but he
wasn't a joiner like Nancy. He did four h because
that's what farm kids did, but his heart wasn't in
group activities. He had a few good friends who liked
hunting and working on cars. He just started dating a
girl from school, though he was pretty awkward about it.
He read constantly, history books, adventure stories, anything he could
(08:21):
get his hands on. He collected coins and stamps. Recently,
he'd gotten into photography, set up a dark room.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
In the basement. The basement was his domain.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Half workshop, half hide out from the world. Being herb
Clutter's only son came with expectations. Everyone assumed Kenyon would
take over the farm someday, but he'd mentioned to friends
that he might want to be an engineer or architect instead.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
He was at that age.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Where you're starting to figure out who you are, separate
from what everyone expects. Perry Smith's life was a disaster
from day one. Born in nineteen twenty eight in Nevada,
his parents were a mess. John Tex Smith was a
rodeo cowboy who drifted around drinking and scheming. His mother
flowed Buckskin, was Cherokee met text on the rodeo circuit.
(09:11):
Their marriage was all fighting and drinking. Perry's childhood was chaos.
They moved constantly. When Perry was six, his parents split up.
His mother took the kids to San Francisco, where things
got even worse. She became an alcoholic, and she would
often leave the kids alone for days at a time.
Perry learned to steal food to survive. It got so
(09:32):
bad they ended up in a Catholic orphanage. For Perry,
this was jumping from bad to worse. The nuns beat
him for wetting the bed one time, they held him
under water in a tub of ice water. This wasn't discipline,
this was torture. When Perry was thirteen, his father showed
up and took him to Alaska, where he'd started a
hunting lodge. For a minute, things seemed better. Perry worked hard,
(09:56):
thought maybe he'd found where he belonged. Then the lodge failed,
Tech started drinking again, and father and son ended up
beating the hell out of each other. Perry joined the
Merchant Marine at sixteen to get away. Later he served
in Korea, even got a bronze star. The military worked
for him, clear rules, clear expectations. He started reading everything
(10:18):
he could get his hands on, taught himself guitar. Turned
out he could draw pretty well. But after the military
he drifted into crime. Not smart crime, stupid stuff like
stealing cars and driving them till they ran out of gas.
He'd rob places and take things that weren't worth anything.
It was like he was mad at the world and
(10:39):
needed to strike back, even if it hurt him more
than anyone else. By nineteen fifty nine, he'd been in
and out of prison. That's where he met Dick Hickock.
Dick seemed to respect Perry's intelligence had big plans. Perry
thought he'd finally found a real friend. Physically, Perry was small,
had messed up legs from a motorcycle accident. He was
(11:00):
in constant pain, wore lifts in his boots to look taller.
Despite everything, he kept himself neat, took pride in his appearance.
He could quote poetry, talk about books better than most
college graduates, but he could also explode into violence if
he felt disrespected. His family was gone by nineteen fifty nine.
(11:21):
Mother dead from alcoholism, one sibling suicide, another dead in
an accident. Father wanted nothing to do with him. Perry
carried around this pathetic collection of documents, birth certificate, military papers,
old photos, like he needed proof he existed. Dick Hickock's
story is different from Perry's, and in some ways that
(11:43):
makes it worse. Born in nineteen thirty one in Kansas City,
he had a normal childhood. His parents were working class
but stable. They loved their kids, worked hard, did their best.
As a kid, Dick showed promise, smart athletic, popular, good
at math and science, had girlfriends, played sports. His parents
(12:06):
thought he might go to college, be the first in
the family. Then In nineteen fifty, he had a bad
car accident, serious head injury. People who knew him said
he changed after that, more impulsive, more aggressive. Whether the
injury actually damaged his brain or just gave him an excuse,
who knows. Instead of college, Dick became a mechanic, married
(12:29):
his high school girlfriend at nineteen, had three kids fast.
The regular life seemed to bore him. He started writing
bad checks, got good at charming store owners into taking them.
His crimes were all small time stuff. He'd come up
with these elaborate schemes, but was too impulsive to pull
them off. He liked conning people thought it proved he
(12:50):
was smarter than everyone else. He was good looking in
that clean cut nineteen fifties way, could make people trust him.
By the time he met Perry in prison, Dick had
become something worse than a petty criminal. He could fake
warmth while feeling nothing. He had started having sexual fantasies
about children, though he hadn't acted on them yet, classic
(13:10):
sociopath stuff. In prison, Dick saw Perry as someone he
could use. Perry had this capacity for violence, plus this
desperate need for respect. Dick started working on him, telling
stories about big scores they could pull. He was especially
interested in something Floyd Wells had told him about, a
rich farmer named Herb Clutter who kept lots of cash
(13:32):
in a safe. Dick's family still supported him, visited him
in prison. That's what made him harder to understand than Perry.
He'd had chances, had people who loved him. He threw
it away because he wanted to. As his release date
got close, Dick was obsessed with the Clutter story. He
wrote Perry letters about the perfect score that would set
(13:53):
them up for life. He painted pictures of easy money,
a new life in Mexico. He was careful never to
write about what they do if the Clutters could identify them. Later,
summer nineteen fifty nine, Floyd Wells was ding time in
Kansas State Penitentiary. He used to work for Herb Clutter.
In prison, you talk about anything to pass time. Wells
(14:16):
told his cellmate Dick Hickock about the Clutter farm, how
successful it was. He mentioned that Clutter kept us safe.
In his office, Wells was just talking. He had no idea.
Dick was filing away every detail, building it into something bigger.
Dick started imagining this safe stuffed with cash, maybe ten
thousand dollars, enough to disappear to Mexico. When Dick's release
(14:39):
got close, he started writing Perry. The letters were calculated.
Dick knew what buttons to push Perry's need for respect,
his dreams of adventure, his anger at the world. He
sold it as one simple job that would set them
up for life. Perry was living in a rooming house,
couldn't find work, nobody wanted to high an ex con with.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
A bad attitude. Stay tuned for more of the Guilty files.
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
After these messages, Dick's letters offered him something, partnership, purpose,
a chance at the life he'd always wanted. Dick got
out in November nineteen fifty nine. He convinced Perry to
meet him in Eliza, where Dick was staying with his parents.
They started planning. Dick treated it like a military operation,
(15:28):
timing equipment, logistics. He'd already started collecting supplies, telling people
he needed rope and tape for work. Perry focused on
what came after Mexico, maybe treasure hunting, finally living the adventure.
Neither of them talked directly about what would happen if
the clutters could identify them. They both knew but didn't
(15:50):
say it, or maybe they convinced themselves. They hadn't decided yet.
By November they were both feeling pressure. Dick was supposed
to be working support his family, Perry was out of money.
They picked a Saturday, November fourteenth drive to Holcombe Rob
The Clutters be in Mexico before anyone noticed. Simple Saturday,
(16:12):
November fourteenth, nineteen fifty nine, just another day at River
Valley Farm. Nobody woke up thinking it was their last
day alive. Herb got up early, like always had breakfast,
went over some paperwork. He'd just taken out a big
life insurance policy forty thousand dollars. The timing would seem significant. Later,
(16:34):
he drove to Garden City for a meeting, was back
by mid morning. Bonnie was having a good day. She
got up, even made lunch for the family. She worked
on stuff for a church bazaar, talked to friends on
the phone. Her voice sounded stronger than it had in weeks.
Nancy had a typical Nancy morning, taught a younger girl
how to make pie, practiced clarinet, did homework. She had
(16:58):
plans with Bobby that night. Kenyon spent the morning in
his workshop finishing a cedar chest he was making for
his sister's Christmas present. After lunch, he helped his dad,
then worked on developing some photos. The afternoon was normal.
Herb met with an insurance agent about that policy. Nancy
taught another girl a trumpet piece. Kenyon kept working on
(17:18):
his projects. Bonnie rested. Bobby Rupp came over around seven
to watch TV with Nancy. They sat in the living room,
following all of Herb's rules. At ten, Bobby left, Nancy
walked him to the door. They made plans for church
the next morning. He never saw her again. Everyone got
(17:38):
ready for bed. Herb did his rounds, checking locks, turning
off lights. Nancy called her friend Susan, chatted about school,
she wrote in her diary. Kenyon took a bath, Bonnie
took her pills and hoped for a good night's sleep.
By eleven, the house was quiet, everyone in bed, doors locked.
(17:59):
They had no reason to think Sunday would be any
different than any other Sunday. They didn't know two men
were driving through the dark toward them while.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
The Clutters slept.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Dick and Perry were hours into their drive from olivea
to Holcombe, four hundred miles across Kansas and Dick's black Chevrolet,
a car he'd bought on credit he'd never pay back.
Dick drove, cracking jokes talking about Mexico. He told his
parents he was going to Fort Scott with Perry to
look for work. Lying came easy in the back seat,
(18:30):
rubber gloves, rope, tape, flashlight, and a shotgun Dick had
taken from his father. Perry was quiet, getting more nervous
as they drove. He'd brought his knife and packed all
his stuff in the trunk. Weird mix in that car,
weapons next to Perry's personal papers, maps of Mexico, his guitar,
(18:51):
like he was ready for murder or a vacation. They
stopped for gas and food several times. Dick chatted with
attendants and waitresses like nothing was up. Perry stayed quiet.
They paid cash, didn't want to leave a trail. The
plan was simple, according to Dick. Get there after midnight.
Cut phone lines go in through an unlocked door. Farmers
(19:13):
never locked doors. Find the safe, tie up the family
so they can't call for help.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Take the money.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Be halfway to Mexico by dawn, But as they got closer,
the problems were obvious. Neither had been to the farm.
They were working off Floyd Wells's old information and their
own fantasies. Dick's certainty about all this cash was based
on nothing. They hit Garden City around midnight, asked for
directions to Holcombe. The gas station guy remembered them later
(19:42):
tall chatty one, short, quiet one from Garden City to
Hulcombe was just a few miles. Everyone knew where the
Clutter farm was. They turned down the driveway, headlights sweeping
across the neat lawn. Nice house, not fancy but solid.
They parked by trees, out of sight, sat in the
dark for a minute. It was after twelve thirty am
(20:06):
November fifteenth, nineteen fifty nine. House was dark except for
one porch light, no sounds but wind and a distant dog.
They gathered their stuff and walked toward the house. What
happened inside the Clutter house that night comes from physical
evidence and confessions that don't always match up.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
But here's what we know.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Between twelve thirty and two am, Dick Hickock and Perry
Smith murdered all four members of the Clutter family. They
got in through an unlocked side door. Just like Dick predicted,
they didn't know the house layout. Moved carefully with their flashlight.
Found Herb's office, where this supposed safe should be. No safe,
just a regular farm office desk, filing cabinets, nothing special.
(20:51):
Smart criminals would have left, but they'd driven four hundred
miles for this. They weren't leaving empty handed. They decided
to wake up Herb and make him tell them where
the money was. They went upstairs socks pulled over their
boots to muffle the sound. Found Herb asleep. When they
woke him, he stayed calm, explained he didn't have a safe,
(21:12):
did everything by check, maybe had thirty or forty dollars
cash in the house. He even offered to write them
a check.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Dick was furious.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
They forced Herb up, made him show them around looking
for this safe that didn't exist. During this search, they
found the others.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
One by one.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Family members woke up to find armed strangers in their house.
The killers had brought white nylon cord, not the kind
you'd find on a farm. They'd come prepared. They used
adhesive tape for gags, though they'd remove these before the killings.
They made herb walk to the basement in his pajamas
and slippers. In the furnace room, they had him lie
(21:50):
face down on a cardboard mattress box on the floor.
They tied his hands behind his back, bound his ankles,
then connected the ropes so his legs were drawn up
behind m him. For a forty eight year old man,
this position would have been painful. Kenyon went to the
basement separately. They put him in the playroom next door,
the same room he'd helped his dad refinish months earlier.
(22:12):
They tied him to the sofa. He could hear his father,
but couldn't see him. The kid was surrounded by his workshop,
all his tools and projects, but completely helpless. Upstairs was different.
They tied Bonnie in her own bed. Her hands were
tied in front instead of behind, maybe because she was
obviously frail. She was wearing a nightgown and robe. They
(22:34):
let her stay under the covers. The rope work wasn't
as elaborate as with the men, but she couldn't move.
Nancy was in her room at the other end of
the hall, hands tied in front like her mother. She
was wearing blue pajamas with white trim. The ones she'd
put on after Bobby left. They let her stay in bed,
pulled the blankets up to her shoulders, but the ropes
(22:56):
on her wrists were tight, really tight. The marks they'd
leave showed she fought hard against them. Based on evidence
and confessions, the killing started in the basement with Herb,
probably around one o'clock. They'd been in the house at
least half an hour by then, maybe longer before they
shot him. One of them, probably Parry, cut Herb's throat
(23:17):
with a knife, not deep enough to kill, but deep
enough to bleed badly. Was it a failed attempt to
kill him quietly, torture to make him reveal money, just cruelty?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
We don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
What we do know is Herb clutter lying, tied up
with his throat bleeding, asked them not to hurt his family,
said they had no money, had done nothing wrong. They
used a Savage Model three hundred shotgun Dick had taken
from his father. The killer put a cotton cushion from
a chair over the muzzle, trying to muffle the sound,
and shot Herb in the head at close range. The
(23:53):
blast was devastating. The cushion exploded, leaving cotton mixed with
blood and tissue all over the furnace. Run Kenyon was next.
He would have heard the shot that killed his father.
The killer walked into the playroom, where the fifteen year
old was tied to the sofa. No attempt to muffle
this shot. One blast to the face at close range.
(24:14):
The pattern on the wall showed he was facing his killer.
No cuts or other wounds, just the shotgun blast. Then
they climbed two flights of stairs to the women Bonnie's room. First,
she was lying on her side facing the wall. Evidence
showed she turned her head away at the last second.
Shot once in the side of the head, gun held
(24:34):
inches away. Blood and tissue sprayed across the floor, a wallpaper.
Nancy was last. They walked down the hall to her room.
By now she'd heard three shots. She knew what was coming.
The rope marks on.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Her wrists were severe.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
She'd fought desperately against the bindings. She was shot once
in the back of the head. Killer standing at the
foot of her bed, she turned to face the wall.
The blast destroyed her face, sprayed blood across her stuffed
animals and school pennants. After the murders, the killer stayed
in the house. They washed up in the bathroom, left
bloody water in the sink. They went to the kitchen
(25:12):
and ate milk and cookies. Think about that. They just
killed four people and they stopped for a snack. They
tried to clean up some evidence, picked up the shotgun shells,
though they missed one that rolled under a box in
the basement, took the knife used on herb. Gathered up
extra rope and tape, but they left plenty behind. In
(25:33):
the basement. There was a bloody footprint on the cardboard
where Herb died. Boot print with a diamond pattern sole
size ten would match Perry's boots exactly. Blood Drops led
from the basement to the upstairs bathroom, showing the killer's path.
The rope was distinctive, that white nylon cord you couldn't
buy just anywhere in rural Kansas. They'd used way more
(25:56):
than necessary, wrapping it multiple times, then connecting bindings. The
knots were nothing special, but they worked. Every victim was
completely helpless before being shot. The way they positioned the
bodies told its own story. Family members separated men in
the basement, women upstairs at opposite ends of the hall.
(26:17):
They couldn't see each other, couldn't offer comfort. That's deliberate
psychological cruelty. The murder weapon twelve gage shot gun SupeRx
long range shells at close range, devastating each victim, shot
once in the head, gun held between two and twelve
inches away. Medical examiners said death was instantaneous in each case.
(26:40):
When investigators processed everything, several things were clear. This wasn't
a crime of passion or robbery gone wrong.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
The rope, the.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Tape, the separation, the execution style killings all pointed to planning.
They came prepared to control this family completely. The search
for money was real, but limited. Some drawers opened papers,
moved around in Herb's office, but they didn't tear the
place apart. Either they found the little bit of cash
quickly or gave up when they realized there was no safe.
(27:12):
Total haul less than fifty dollars, kenyons, radio, and some binoculars.
Four people dead for pocket change. There was cruelty beyond
what was needed for robbery or murder. The throat cutting,
the tight ropes that left deep marks separating the family,
making sure each person knew what was coming. These were
killers who wanted their victims to suffer. The time spent
(27:36):
in the house afterward was especially chilling. Most criminals would
run after something like this. These guys washed up and
had a snack. They walked around, stepping over blood like
it was nothing. When they finally left some time before
two am, they left behind a scene that would haunt
everyone who saw it. Four innocent people dead in their
own home, tied up and executed for no good reason. Randomness,
(28:00):
the tiny game, the excessive violence. It all added up
to a crime that made no sense. The Clutters went
to bed Saturday night, expecting to wake up Sunday morning. Instead,
they were woken up to terror, separated from each other,
and murdered by two strangers who drove four hundred miles
based on a lie about money. It achieved nothing except
(28:22):
destroying four lives and shattering a community sense of safety forever.
Sunday morning, November fifteenth, nineteen fifty nine, clear and cold
and Wolcombe people getting ready for church all over town.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
At River Valley Farm, nothing moved.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Nancy Ewwalt and her father, Clarence, showed up around nine am.
Nancy came every Sunday to ride horses with Nancy Clutter.
Nobody answered their knocks.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
This was weird.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
The clutters were always up early, even on Sundays. They
tried the kitchen door, unlocked. The kitchen looked normal, clean, tidy,
nothing out of place. They called out, no answer. Clarence
told his daughter to wait in the car while he
looked around. He went upstairs to Nancy's room. Found her
in bed, face destroyed by a shotgun blast. Her pink
(29:14):
room with all the stuffed animals and school stuff now
a crime scene. Clarence got out of their fast drove
to a neighbor's house to call the sheriff. His hands
were shaking so bad he could barely dial. Under Sheriff
Wendell Meyer got there in minutes, then Sheriff Earl Robinson.
These guys usually dealt with cattle theft and speeding tickets,
(29:34):
not this. They found Bonnie in her room, same thing,
shotgun to the head. Then they went to the basement
and found herb and Kenyon. Despite being out of their depth,
the local cops did good work. They secured the scene,
preserved evidence, noted the important stuff, no forced entry, no
signs of struggle in the main parts of the house.
(29:56):
By late morning, they'd called in the KBI Kansas Bureau
of Investigation. Stay tuned for more of the guilty files.
We'll be right back after these messages. Alvin Dewey took
the case. He lived in Garden City, knew the Clutters personally.
This would become his obsession. When he got to the scene,
(30:18):
it was already turning into a circus. Cops, neighbors, reporters
starting to show up the crime scene told them a
lot phone lines cut. That's premeditation. The killers tried to
clean up, picked up their shell casings but missed one,
left a bloody footprint, distinctive rope evidence they'd eaten food
(30:38):
after killing everyone. Words spread fast. The Methodist church, where
the Clutters should have been that morning, became a gathering
place for shocked neighbors. This kind of thing didn't happen
in Holcombe. People didn't even lock their doors. But here
was the problem. No motive, nothing valuable was missing, no
sexual assault. The Clutters had no enemies. Herb was liked
(31:00):
by everyone. Bonnie was pitied for her illness, but had
no problems with anyone. The kids were popular. So who
kills a whole family for no reason? Do we put
together a good team KBI agents, Roy Church, Harold Ny
and Clarence Dunce. They started with basic detective work. Who
saw the clutters last, what was the timeline? Who had
(31:23):
access to the house. Bobby Rupp got the full treatment. First,
he was Nancy's boyfriend, last person known to see any
clutter alive. Statistics say look at family and close friends.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
First.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Poor kid was devastated and now he was a suspect.
He cooperated completely, took multiple polygraph tests, passed them all.
They made lists of everyone who'd been to the farm recently,
insurance agents, delivery guys, Nancy's four h kids, farm hands.
Everyone got interviewed, everyone's whereabouts got checked. They looked for
(31:57):
anyone with a grudge against herb good luck finding someone.
The man was known for being fair. The physical evidence
was interesting that rope was white and nylon cord not
common in farm country. The footprint, small boot with diamond
patterned soul. The shells told them it was a twelve gage,
but none of it led anywhere specific. One weird thing
(32:21):
what the killers didn't do. They didn't ransack the place,
left jewelry, other valuables, so either they came for something
specific or murder was the point not robbery. Days turned
to weeks no brakes. Fear took over Holcombe. Gun sales
went through the roof. Farmers who'd never locked a door
(32:41):
in their lives installed dead bolts, started sleeping with loaded shotguns.
Neighbors looked at each other differently. Was the killer one
of them? Media went crazy. Family murdered in small town America.
That was front page stuff. Reporters flooded Holcombe. Good for
keeping the case public, bad for the investigation. False leads
(33:03):
poured in from everywhere. Every crazy person with a theory
called in. Dewey's team worked around the clock. In the
first month, over two hundred interviews, hundreds of pieces of
evidence processed. Coordination with cops across multiple states. They looked
at similar crimes, prison escapes, mental hospital releases. Nothing panned out.
(33:25):
By December, the case was ice cold, the killers had vanished.
Some cops started thinking privately, this might never get solved.
Perfect family killed in what looked like the perfect crime.
While Kansas cops chased their tails, Dick and Perry were
leaving a trail across the Southwest. Their big score had
netted them less than fifty bucks. Instead of living large
(33:47):
in Mexico, they were passing bad checks and stealing to eat.
After the murders, they drove to Olath to establish Dick's alibi,
then headed for Mexico, stopped in Kansas City, where Dick
passed bad check for travel money. This became their pattern,
small time crime to finance running from big time crime.
Mexico was a bust. No money, no connections, no future.
(34:12):
The paradise Perry dreamed about didn't exist. For two broke
ex cons. They came back to the States, headed west,
living on petty theft and bad paper. Meanwhile, in Kansas
State Penitentiary, Floyd Wells was hearing.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
About the Clutter murders.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
At first, he couldn't believe Dick Hiccock could be involved,
but the details, looking for a safe that didn't exist,
execution style killings, it all fit. Wells had a problem
in prison, you don't snitch, but knowing the Clutters, especially
those kids had died because of his stories, was eating
him alive. After a few sleepless nights, Wells asked to
(34:50):
see the warden on November eighteenth, just three days after
the murders. He spilled everything told them about Dick Hickock.
How he'd been fascinated by of herb Clutter's money, mentioned
Dick talking about partnering with Perry Smith for a big score.
This changed everything. Finally names faces criminal records. Dewey got
(35:12):
photos of Dick and Perry started showing them around quietly
Bingo gas station attendant in Garden City. Yeah, those are
the guys who asked for directions to holkm on the fourteenth.
More witnesses along the route from Olitha confirmed it. The
case was building, but they needed physical evidence. Dick and
Perry's excellent adventure was falling apart. They were in Las
(35:35):
Vegas on December nineteenth when cops spotted their car. It
was on a hot sheet for bad checks and stolen vehicles.
When Dick and Perry came back to the car arrested,
the Vegas cops had no idea they'd just caught the
most wanted men in America. Dewey got the call and
flew to Vegas with his team. Time to crack these
guys and get justice for the Clutters. The interrogation started thirtieth,
(36:00):
nineteen fifty.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Nine in Las Vegas.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Dewey's team had everything lined up, witnesses, evidence, timeline. They
had one shot to break these guys. They separated Dick
and Perry. Classic move. Dick went first, true to form.
He tried to charm his way out. Yeah he knew Perry.
Yeah they traveled together. Sure he'd passed some bad checks,
(36:25):
but murder, no way. He kept that boyish smile going
acted shocked at the suggestion. Dewey's team laid out their
evidence piece by piece. Witnesses in Garden City, Floyd Wells
testimony their movements after the murders. Dick's mask started slipping.
Perry was different. Where Dick talked and talked, Perry just
(36:48):
sat there, one word, answers or silence. The investigators could
tell he was the more complex one, maybe the more dangerous.
The breakthrough came from playing them against each other. They
told Dick that Perry was talking, blaming everything on him.
That did it self. Preservation kicked in. Dick came up
(37:08):
with a new story. Okay, they went to rob the clutters,
but Perry went crazy and killed everyone. He was just
an innocent bystander, horrified but helpless. Now they had leverage
with Perry. They told him Dick's version, Perry's damn broke,
but his story was different. According to Perry, Dick planned everything,
(37:29):
insisted on no witnesses. Perry admitted killing Herb and Kenyon,
but said Dick killed the women.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Over several days.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
The stories kept changing as each tried to save his
own skin, but the core facts stayed the same. They
went to rob the clutters based on Will's story, found
no safe, almost no money, tied everyone up, killed them all.
The really chilling part was how they talked about it.
Dick described killing Nancy like he was talking about changing attire.
(37:59):
Perry was weird, claimed he apologized to Herb before shooting him.
These little glimpses of humanity somehow.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Made it worse.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
The big question who actually pulled the trigger? Dick said
Perry killed all four in some kind of frenzy. Perry
first said they each killed two. Later he said he
killed all four, maybe protecting Dick, maybe claiming all the
credit in his twisted way. The physical evidence footprint shells,
supported Perry doing all the shooting. March twenty second, nineteen sixty,
(38:33):
the trial started at the Finny County Courthouse, and Garden City,
the town that had been terrorized, wanted to see justice.
Courthouse was packed every day. The prosecution's case was simple
and devastating. They had confessions, physical evidence, witnesses tracking the
defendant's movements. It was overwhelming. The defense, led by Arthur Fleming,
(38:55):
had an impossible job. Guilt was certain. Their only hope
was avoiding the day death penalty by proving mental illness.
Problem was, Kansas had strict rules about insanity defenses. You
had to prove the defendants didn't know right from wrong
during the crime. Good luck with that when they'd tried
to clean up evidence and run to Mexico. The defense
(39:15):
got the guys examined by psychiatrists, but it was quick
and superficial. The judge barely allowed any psychiatric testimony. All
the deeper stuff, Perry's tortured childhood, Dick's head injury never
really came out. The trial testimony was brutal for the community.
Nancy ew Walt talking about finding Nancy's body, Bobby Ruck
(39:37):
breaking down describing his last night with Nancy, Cops clinically
describing the crime scene. It was devastating. Dick took the stand,
stuck to his story that Perry did all the killing.
Nobody bought it, especially when he admitted planning the robbery.
And bringing the weapons. Perry's testimony was stranger. He admitted killing,
but couldn't really explain why about almost not doing it
(40:01):
than doing it anyway. His flat delivery gave everyone chills.
The jury deliberated forty minutes, guilty on all counts. Death
penalty phase was just as quick. Both sentenced to hang.
Dick kept his cocky act up. Perry seemed almost relieved,
like this confirmed what he'd always believed about himself. They
(40:22):
went to death row at Kansas State Penitentiary. Five years
of appeals followed, big legal questions, adequate psychiatric evaluation, fair trial,
with all the publicity, was the death penalty constitutional? During
this time, Truman Capote showed up. He was writing about
the murders, spent a lot of time with both killers,
(40:43):
especially Perry. Their relationship got weird and complicated. Capote's interviews
would become in cold blood. The appeals revealed more about
their psychology. Better psychiatric exams diagnosed Perry as paranoid schizophrenic,
possibly brain damaged from child hood abuse. Dick had antisocial
personality disorder, may be made worse by his head injury.
(41:06):
This context had been missing from the trial every appeal failed.
Some judges dissented, said they should have had better psychiatric evaluation.
Case went to the Supreme Court. They refused to hear it.
By nineteen sixty five. It was over April fourteenth, nineteen
sixty five, after last minute appeals failed, they were executed
(41:29):
just after midnight. Dick went first, last words, I just
want to say I hold no hard feelings. You people
are sending me to a better world than this ever
was Perry. I think it's a hell of a thing
to take a life in this manner. I don't believe
in capital punishment, morally or legally. Maybe I had something
(41:49):
to contribute something, and that was it. The legal saga
was over, but the questions it raised about mental illness, justice,
capital punishment, those are still with us. The executions brought
legal closure, but Holcomb would never be the same. The
immediate aftermath had been dramatic, a trusting farmtown suddenly full
(42:11):
of locked doors and loaded guns. But the longer term
changes went deeper. People's whole worldview had shifted. The clutter
farm became this weird tourist attraction. People would drive by slow,
try to peek in windows. Some even wanted souvenirs The
place that had symbolized success and family values was now
(42:32):
just the murder house. For people close to the Clutters,
it was brutal. Bobby Rupp couldn't shake the guilt of
being the last to see Nancy alive. Eventually left Kansas completely.
Nancy Ewalt had nightmares for years. These people had to
live with both their personal trauma and being part of
this famous case. Beverly and Aviana, the surviving Clutter daughters,
(42:55):
handled the estate and the trial with incredible dignity, but
the cost was hugh huge. They'd lost their parents and
siblings and had to grieve in public, with reporters watching everything.
The church became a focal point for the community struggle
how could God let this happen to good people? Some
found their faith strengthened by the crisis, others walked away
(43:16):
from religion entirely. The theological debates were intense, and personal
law enforcement was changed too. The successful investigation boosted the
kbi's reputation, but the officers who worked the scene carried
those images forever. Several later talked about nightmares about losing
their belief that people were basically good. Truman Capote showed
(43:39):
up in Kansas right after the murders, supposedly to write
a magazine article. What came out was In Cold Blood
in nineteen sixty five, a non fiction novel that created
a whole new genre. Capoti spent years in Kansas, interviewed
everyone connected to the case. His relationship with the killers,
especially Perry, got intense and weird. Some people thought he'd
(44:03):
fallen in love with Perry. This emotional involvement made people
question how objective.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
The book really was.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
The book was huge, bestseller lists, critical acclaim the works.
Capote brought the Clutters to life on the page, which
made their deaths it even harder. His portraits of Dick
and Perry were complex, sometimes sympathetic, especially Perry with his
horrible childhood. It sparked national debates the death penalty. Were
(44:32):
these damaged men or cold blooded killers? The book suggested
American society created both the successful Clutters and the men
who killed them. Heavy stuff for nineteen sixty five, but
there were problems. Some people in Kansas felt Capoti had
exploited their tragedy. Questions came up about accuracy. How could
(44:52):
he know exact conversations he wasn't there for turns out,
he'd taken some creative liberties, mixed fact with fiction. Stay
tuned for more of the Guilty Files. We'll be right
back after these messages. People who were in the book
had issues with how they were portrayed. Dewey felt the
investigation was oversimplified. Some townspeople thought they came off as hicks.
(45:17):
The sympathetic treatment of the killers really pissed off people
who thought it minimized what they'd done. Still in Cold
Blood became a classic. It influenced every true crime book
that came after. It also raised all these ethical questions
we're still dealing with. Who owns a tragedy? Is it
okay to make art out of real people's suffering? Sixty
(45:39):
years later, we're still fascinated by this case. Multiple movies, documentaries, books,
each with a new angle. Why does it endure? Because
it raises questions we still can't answer the big one?
Why why did Dick and Perry kill the Clutters for
basically nothing? Eliminating witnesses doesn't explain the excessive violence. Theories
(46:02):
range from Perry's psychological damage to Dick possibly wanting to
rape Nancy. Capoti hinted at this, but Perry supposedly stopped him.
The randomness makes it worse nature versus nurture. Dick had
a stable childhood but became a sociopath. Perry had a
nightmare childhood. But millions of abused kids don't become killers.
(46:23):
What specific combination creates a murderer? We still don't know.
The death penalty question. Did executing Dick and Perry serve
justice or just add more death to the tragedy. Kansas
has gone back and forth on capital punishment, and the
Clutter Case always comes up in the debate mental illness
and criminal responsibility. Modern psychiatry would handle Dick and Perry differently,
(46:48):
but how much should mental illness matter when determining guilt.
The narrow legal definition in nineteen sixty prevented real exploration
of this. We're still fighting about it. The impact on
rural American life was huge. The Clutter Case marked the
end of unlocked doors and trusting strangers. Small town America
lost its innocence in that sense. Dick and Perry killed
(47:11):
more than four people. They killed a way of life. Today,
Hulcombe has physically recovered, but the murders are still part
of its identity. The town's grown farming has changed dramatically,
but people still come looking for murder sites. Old timers
still talk about before and after the murders. The Clutter
House still stands, privately owned, off limits to gawkers. River
(47:34):
Valley Farm has been broken up. Physical traces of the
crime are mostly gone, but the psychological impact remains. Law
enforcement has evolved incredibly since nineteen fifty nine. DNA databases
profiling modern cops would probably solve this faster, but Dewey's
basic detective work following leads building a case that's still
(47:57):
the foundation. Mental illness and criminal justice has evolved some,
but maybe not enough. The questions raised by Dick and
Perry's inadequate psychiatric evaluation are still relevant. How do we
balance punishment with understanding what role should childhood trauma play?
These debates happen in courtrooms every day. True crime exploded
(48:19):
as a genre after in Cold Blood podcasts, streaming series,
countless books. The ethical questions capoti faced exploitation versus storytelling,
how close to get to killers profiting from tragedy? Every
true crime creator deals with these. The families touched by
the murders have mostly sought privacy. The Clutter daughters rarely
(48:42):
spoke publicly. Bobby Rupp built a life away from the spotlight.
The Hickock and Smith families carried their own burden. These
private griefs remind us that beyond the cultural phenomenon, real
people suffered devastating losses. The Clutter murders were an ending
and a beginning. Four lives ended senselessly. A community's innocence ended,
(49:05):
but it began a national conversation about violence, mental illness, justice,
and the American dream that continues today. Herb Clutter did
everything right by American standards, worked hard, built success, served
his community, raised his family with values. None of it
protected him from two men with a shotgun and a
(49:25):
fantasy about easy money. That fundamental vulnerability shook America's faith
in the connection between virtue and safety. Bonnie struggle with
depression adds another layer of tragedy. Today, she might have
gotten better treatment. Her suffering reminds us of the private
battles people fight, even in seemingly perfect families. Nancy and
(49:47):
Kenyon represented pure potential, Nancy with her achievements and popularity,
Kenyon with his quiet creativity. They were sixteen and fifteen.
Their whole lives ahead of them their death see especially
cruel futures stolen before they really began. Dick and Perry
represent the shadow side of the American story. Failed by family, society,
(50:10):
or their own choices, they became destroyers. Their pathetic hall
less than fifty dollars emphasizes how senseless it all was.
They killed from some emptiness that no amount of money
could fill. The investigation showed American justice at its best
and worst. Excellent detective work solved the case. The defendants
(50:31):
got a fair trial, but the limited psychiatric understanding and
rushed to execution raised troubling questions the system seemed more
interested in punishment than comprehension. Capote's book turned tragedy into art,
creating a new way to examine crime, but it also
raised ethical questions about exploitation and truth that haunt true
(50:52):
crime creators today. The legacy touches everything loss of innocence,
security culture, endless debates about mental illness and justice. The
Clutter case forced America to look at its dark possibilities
along with its dreams. For Holcombe, resilience came with permanent scars.
(51:13):
The community survived, but transformed Locked doors and security systems
speak to hard lessons learned. Maybe the core lesson is
about life's fragility. The Clutters were just living their lives, working,
going to school, dealing with challenges, planning futures. Their destruction
reminds us that every murder victim is a universe of possibility.
(51:34):
Ended relationships, severed, futures erased. The Clutters deserved better than
being remembered as murder victims. They were real people with
full lives, but their deaths became a mirror for American
fears and failures. Their story challenges us to build a
society that identifies and helps the damage before they become dangerous,
(51:55):
pursues justice without losing mercy, and remembers that behind every
every headline are human beings who mattered. The wheat fields
around Holcombe still wave in the Kansas wind. Life continues,
but for those who remember, those fields hold echoes of
when evil came to River Valley Farm. Four lives ended
in violence that shocked a nation and changed how we
(52:18):
see ourselves. This is the Clutter story, a crime that
destroyed a family, transformed a community, and forced America to
confront uncomfortable truths. There's no happy ending, no redemption, just
questions that demand we keep working toward a more just
and compassionate society. That's the only memorial that matters.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
It
Thank you Dogging A.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome back to The Guilty Files, the podcast where every
case gets a second look, a deeper dive, and two
distinct takes that keep you coming back for more. I'm
your host, Brian, and I'm here to bring you the unfiltered,
no nonsense breakdown of this week's crime. A little about me,
I've spent sixteen years in law enforcement, with ten of
(00:30):
those years pounding the pavement as a beat cop in
the streets of Atlanta. I've seen crime up close, the chaos,
the aftermath, and the cold, hard truths that never make
the headlines. That's why my focus is simple. I'll take
you through the facts of the case step by step
with nothing left to speculation. But that's only half of
(00:52):
what we do here. My co host Danny is your
guide to the other side of the story. He dives
into the untold possibility, uncovers hidden motives, and imagines the
what ifs that make you question everything you thought you knew. Together,
we bring you two unique perspectives on every case, because
in true crime, the truth is rarely as simple as
(01:13):
it seems. Every week we promise you this two cops,
one crime, two stories told. If you're a fan of
the details, the drama, and the darker side of human nature.
You're in for a ride, So grab your headphones, lock
the door, and let's get into the Guilty Files, where
every case comes with a twist and the truth is
(01:34):
just the beginning. If you've ever driven through western Kansas,
you know how the wheat fields seem to go on forever.
Back in November nineteen fifty nine, a family living in
those fields thought they had life figured out. The Clutters
were doing well, successful farm, respected in the community, four
(01:57):
kids who were turning out pretty good. Then two guys
showed up in the middle of the night and killed
them all. What happened to the Clutter family changed everything
about how Americans thought about being safe in their own homes.
It inspired one of the most famous true crime books
ever written, and more than sixty years later, we're still
trying to understand why it happened. Herb Clutter was born
(02:20):
in nineteen eleven in Rosal, Kansas. His family farmed like
pretty much everyone in that part of Kansas back then.
From the start, Herb was the kind of kid who
seemed destined to do well. Good with numbers, could get
people to listen to him, worked hard without complaining about it.
He went to Kansas State to study agriculture. That's where
(02:41):
he met Bonnie Fox, who was studying nursing. She was
from Garden City, came from a family with a bit
more money than the Clutters. They got married in nineteen
thirty five, right in the middle of the depression, when
nobody had any money and starting a farm seemed like
a crazy idea, but Herb made it work. He started
out working for other farmers, learning everything he could, saving
(03:03):
every penny. Eventually he bought River Valley Farm outside Holcombe.
By nineteen fifty nine, he'd built it up to over
one thousand acres. This wasn't some hard scrabble operation.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Herb had the.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Latest equipment, used modern techniques, made good money. He wasn't
just a farmer either. He was on the Federal Farm
Credit Board, spoke at agricultural conferences, helped other farmers figure
out better ways to do things. People respected him. He
paid his workers well, treated them fairly. The Clutters were Methodists,
went to church every Sunday, didn't drink, didn't swear. Herb
(03:39):
was exactly what people meant when they talked about pillars
of the community. They had four kids, at Viana in
nineteen thirty six, Beverly in nineteen thirty nine, Nancy in
nineteen forty three, and Kenyon in nineteen forty four. By
nineteen fifty nine, the two older girls had already left home.
Herb was forty eight years old and had pretty much
(04:01):
everything he'd hoped for. Successful farm, respected position in the community,
family doing well. He'd played by all the rules and won.
Bonnie Fox was born in nineteen fourteen into a Garden
City family that had money and made sure their kids
got culture along with education.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
She could play.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Piano, had a nice singing voice, was smart enough to
go into nursing school. When she married Herb, everyone figured
it was a good match, two capable people who'd build
something together. For years, That's exactly what happened. Bonnie ran
the household, taught the kid's music, was active at church.
She was that kind of mother who made sure her
(04:41):
kids learned about art and books, not just farming. Everything
seemed fine. Then after Kenyon was born in nineteen forty four,
something went wrong. Maybe it was what we'd now call
postpartum depression. Maybe it was being isolated on a farm.
Whatever it was, Bonnie started having what people called nervous spells.
(05:01):
At first, it was just bad days.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Here and there. Then it got worse. By the nineteen.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Fifties, she was seriously depressed. The Clutters had money, so
they sent her to the best doctors. She went to
the Meninger Clinic in Topeka, which was supposed to be
the top psychiatric hospital in the country. She tried different medications,
different treatments, nothing really helped. By nineteen fifty nine, she
spent most of her time in bed. The woman who
(05:28):
used to play piano for hours couldn't even touch the
keys most days. The family adapted herb never complained, at
least not where anyone could hear. Nancy basically took over
running the house. On Bonnie's good days, she'd cook an
elaborate meal or work in the garden, and everyone would
pretend things were normal. But mostly she stayed in her
(05:49):
room fighting something the doctors couldn't fix. Nancy was sixteen
and nineteen fifty nine, and she was one of those
teenagers who seemed to be good at everything. Straight a student,
class president, played clarinet in the band. Her pies won
blue ribbons at the county fair. She taught Sunday school,
tutored other kids, led four h groups. If that sounds
(06:11):
like too much, well, Nancy somehow made it work. She
kept these detailed notebooks for every activity, never missed a deadline.
Teachers loved her, other kids liked her. Even though she
was so accomplished, she wasn't stuck up about it. She'd
been dating Bobby Rupp for about a year. He was
on the basketball team, she was class president. It was
(06:32):
that kind of high school relationship. Herb had strict rules
about dating. Bobby could only come over certain nights, could
only be in certain parts of the house. Nancy followed
the rules without complaining. With her mother six so much,
Nancy basically ran the household. She cooked, cleaned, made sure
Kenyon had clean clothes for school. She was sixteen and
(06:54):
doing a grown woman's job on top of everything else.
Her friend said she never complained about it, it was
just what needed to be done. She planned to go
to Kansas State like her parents, maybe study music or teaching.
She kept a diary where she wrote about normal teenage stuff, boys, friends,
dreams about seeing the world. She also wrote about coming
(07:15):
back to Kansas, eventually having a family of her own.
She had her whole life mapped out. Kenyon was fifteen,
the baby of the family and the only boy. Where
Nancy was outgoing and involved in everything, Kenyon was quiet,
preferred working alone. He was tall and skinny, wore glasses,
looked like the smart kid he was. The kid could
(07:37):
build anything. From the time he was little, he was
taking things apart to see how they worked. Herb set
up a whole workshop for him in the basement. Kenyan
would spend hours down there building furniture, fixing engines, working
on projects. The stuff he built wasn't just functional, it
was beautiful. He had real talent.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
At school.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
He did fine, especially in math and science, but he
wasn't a joiner like Nancy. He did four h because
that's what farm kids did, but his heart wasn't in
group activities. He had a few good friends who liked
hunting and working on cars. He just started dating a
girl from school, though he was pretty awkward about it.
He read constantly, history books, adventure stories, anything he could
(08:21):
get his hands on. He collected coins and stamps. Recently,
he'd gotten into photography, set up a dark room.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
In the basement. The basement was his domain.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Half workshop, half hide out from the world. Being herb
Clutter's only son came with expectations. Everyone assumed Kenyon would
take over the farm someday, but he'd mentioned to friends
that he might want to be an engineer or architect instead.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
He was at that age.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Where you're starting to figure out who you are, separate
from what everyone expects. Perry Smith's life was a disaster
from day one. Born in nineteen twenty eight in Nevada,
his parents were a mess. John Tex Smith was a
rodeo cowboy who drifted around drinking and scheming. His mother
flowed Buckskin, was Cherokee met text on the rodeo circuit.
(09:11):
Their marriage was all fighting and drinking. Perry's childhood was chaos.
They moved constantly. When Perry was six, his parents split up.
His mother took the kids to San Francisco, where things
got even worse. She became an alcoholic, and she would
often leave the kids alone for days at a time.
Perry learned to steal food to survive. It got so
(09:32):
bad they ended up in a Catholic orphanage. For Perry,
this was jumping from bad to worse. The nuns beat
him for wetting the bed one time, they held him
under water in a tub of ice water. This wasn't discipline,
this was torture. When Perry was thirteen, his father showed
up and took him to Alaska, where he'd started a
hunting lodge. For a minute, things seemed better. Perry worked hard,
(09:56):
thought maybe he'd found where he belonged. Then the lodge failed,
Tech started drinking again, and father and son ended up
beating the hell out of each other. Perry joined the
Merchant Marine at sixteen to get away. Later he served
in Korea, even got a bronze star. The military worked
for him, clear rules, clear expectations. He started reading everything
(10:18):
he could get his hands on, taught himself guitar. Turned
out he could draw pretty well. But after the military
he drifted into crime. Not smart crime, stupid stuff like
stealing cars and driving them till they ran out of gas.
He'd rob places and take things that weren't worth anything.
It was like he was mad at the world and
(10:39):
needed to strike back, even if it hurt him more
than anyone else. By nineteen fifty nine, he'd been in
and out of prison. That's where he met Dick Hickock.
Dick seemed to respect Perry's intelligence had big plans. Perry
thought he'd finally found a real friend. Physically, Perry was small,
had messed up legs from a motorcycle accident. He was
(11:00):
in constant pain, wore lifts in his boots to look taller.
Despite everything, he kept himself neat, took pride in his appearance.
He could quote poetry, talk about books better than most
college graduates, but he could also explode into violence if
he felt disrespected. His family was gone by nineteen fifty nine.
(11:21):
Mother dead from alcoholism, one sibling suicide, another dead in
an accident. Father wanted nothing to do with him. Perry
carried around this pathetic collection of documents, birth certificate, military papers,
old photos, like he needed proof he existed. Dick Hickock's
story is different from Perry's, and in some ways that
(11:43):
makes it worse. Born in nineteen thirty one in Kansas City,
he had a normal childhood. His parents were working class
but stable. They loved their kids, worked hard, did their best.
As a kid, Dick showed promise, smart athletic, popular, good
at math and science, had girlfriends, played sports. His parents
(12:06):
thought he might go to college, be the first in
the family. Then In nineteen fifty, he had a bad
car accident, serious head injury. People who knew him said
he changed after that, more impulsive, more aggressive. Whether the
injury actually damaged his brain or just gave him an excuse,
who knows. Instead of college, Dick became a mechanic, married
(12:29):
his high school girlfriend at nineteen, had three kids fast.
The regular life seemed to bore him. He started writing
bad checks, got good at charming store owners into taking them.
His crimes were all small time stuff. He'd come up
with these elaborate schemes, but was too impulsive to pull
them off. He liked conning people thought it proved he
(12:50):
was smarter than everyone else. He was good looking in
that clean cut nineteen fifties way, could make people trust him.
By the time he met Perry in prison, Dick had
become something worse than a petty criminal. He could fake
warmth while feeling nothing. He had started having sexual fantasies
about children, though he hadn't acted on them yet, classic
(13:10):
sociopath stuff. In prison, Dick saw Perry as someone he
could use. Perry had this capacity for violence, plus this
desperate need for respect. Dick started working on him, telling
stories about big scores they could pull. He was especially
interested in something Floyd Wells had told him about, a
rich farmer named Herb Clutter who kept lots of cash
(13:32):
in a safe. Dick's family still supported him, visited him
in prison. That's what made him harder to understand than Perry.
He'd had chances, had people who loved him. He threw
it away because he wanted to. As his release date
got close, Dick was obsessed with the Clutter story. He
wrote Perry letters about the perfect score that would set
(13:53):
them up for life. He painted pictures of easy money,
a new life in Mexico. He was careful never to
write about what they do if the Clutters could identify them. Later,
summer nineteen fifty nine, Floyd Wells was ding time in
Kansas State Penitentiary. He used to work for Herb Clutter.
In prison, you talk about anything to pass time. Wells
(14:16):
told his cellmate Dick Hickock about the Clutter farm, how
successful it was. He mentioned that Clutter kept us safe.
In his office, Wells was just talking. He had no idea.
Dick was filing away every detail, building it into something bigger.
Dick started imagining this safe stuffed with cash, maybe ten
thousand dollars, enough to disappear to Mexico. When Dick's release
(14:39):
got close, he started writing Perry. The letters were calculated.
Dick knew what buttons to push Perry's need for respect,
his dreams of adventure, his anger at the world. He
sold it as one simple job that would set them
up for life. Perry was living in a rooming house,
couldn't find work, nobody wanted to high an ex con with.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
A bad attitude. Stay tuned for more of the Guilty files.
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
After these messages, Dick's letters offered him something, partnership, purpose,
a chance at the life he'd always wanted. Dick got
out in November nineteen fifty nine. He convinced Perry to
meet him in Eliza, where Dick was staying with his parents.
They started planning. Dick treated it like a military operation,
(15:28):
timing equipment, logistics. He'd already started collecting supplies, telling people
he needed rope and tape for work. Perry focused on
what came after Mexico, maybe treasure hunting, finally living the adventure.
Neither of them talked directly about what would happen if
the clutters could identify them. They both knew but didn't
(15:50):
say it, or maybe they convinced themselves. They hadn't decided yet.
By November they were both feeling pressure. Dick was supposed
to be working support his family, Perry was out of money.
They picked a Saturday, November fourteenth drive to Holcombe Rob
The Clutters be in Mexico before anyone noticed. Simple Saturday,
(16:12):
November fourteenth, nineteen fifty nine, just another day at River
Valley Farm. Nobody woke up thinking it was their last
day alive. Herb got up early, like always had breakfast,
went over some paperwork. He'd just taken out a big
life insurance policy forty thousand dollars. The timing would seem significant. Later,
(16:34):
he drove to Garden City for a meeting, was back
by mid morning. Bonnie was having a good day. She
got up, even made lunch for the family. She worked
on stuff for a church bazaar, talked to friends on
the phone. Her voice sounded stronger than it had in weeks.
Nancy had a typical Nancy morning, taught a younger girl
how to make pie, practiced clarinet, did homework. She had
(16:58):
plans with Bobby that night. Kenyon spent the morning in
his workshop finishing a cedar chest he was making for
his sister's Christmas present. After lunch, he helped his dad,
then worked on developing some photos. The afternoon was normal.
Herb met with an insurance agent about that policy. Nancy
taught another girl a trumpet piece. Kenyon kept working on
(17:18):
his projects. Bonnie rested. Bobby Rupp came over around seven
to watch TV with Nancy. They sat in the living room,
following all of Herb's rules. At ten, Bobby left, Nancy
walked him to the door. They made plans for church
the next morning. He never saw her again. Everyone got
(17:38):
ready for bed. Herb did his rounds, checking locks, turning
off lights. Nancy called her friend Susan, chatted about school,
she wrote in her diary. Kenyon took a bath, Bonnie
took her pills and hoped for a good night's sleep.
By eleven, the house was quiet, everyone in bed, doors locked.
(17:59):
They had no reason to think Sunday would be any
different than any other Sunday. They didn't know two men
were driving through the dark toward them while.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
The Clutters slept.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Dick and Perry were hours into their drive from olivea
to Holcombe, four hundred miles across Kansas and Dick's black Chevrolet,
a car he'd bought on credit he'd never pay back.
Dick drove, cracking jokes talking about Mexico. He told his
parents he was going to Fort Scott with Perry to
look for work. Lying came easy in the back seat,
(18:30):
rubber gloves, rope, tape, flashlight, and a shotgun Dick had
taken from his father. Perry was quiet, getting more nervous
as they drove. He'd brought his knife and packed all
his stuff in the trunk. Weird mix in that car,
weapons next to Perry's personal papers, maps of Mexico, his guitar,
(18:51):
like he was ready for murder or a vacation. They
stopped for gas and food several times. Dick chatted with
attendants and waitresses like nothing was up. Perry stayed quiet.
They paid cash, didn't want to leave a trail. The
plan was simple, according to Dick. Get there after midnight.
Cut phone lines go in through an unlocked door. Farmers
(19:13):
never locked doors. Find the safe, tie up the family
so they can't call for help.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Take the money.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Be halfway to Mexico by dawn, But as they got closer,
the problems were obvious. Neither had been to the farm.
They were working off Floyd Wells's old information and their
own fantasies. Dick's certainty about all this cash was based
on nothing. They hit Garden City around midnight, asked for
directions to Holcombe. The gas station guy remembered them later
(19:42):
tall chatty one, short, quiet one from Garden City to
Hulcombe was just a few miles. Everyone knew where the
Clutter farm was. They turned down the driveway, headlights sweeping
across the neat lawn. Nice house, not fancy but solid.
They parked by trees, out of sight, sat in the
dark for a minute. It was after twelve thirty am
(20:06):
November fifteenth, nineteen fifty nine. House was dark except for
one porch light, no sounds but wind and a distant dog.
They gathered their stuff and walked toward the house. What
happened inside the Clutter house that night comes from physical
evidence and confessions that don't always match up.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
But here's what we know.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Between twelve thirty and two am, Dick Hickock and Perry
Smith murdered all four members of the Clutter family. They
got in through an unlocked side door. Just like Dick predicted,
they didn't know the house layout. Moved carefully with their flashlight.
Found Herb's office, where this supposed safe should be. No safe,
just a regular farm office desk, filing cabinets, nothing special.
(20:51):
Smart criminals would have left, but they'd driven four hundred
miles for this. They weren't leaving empty handed. They decided
to wake up Herb and make him tell them where
the money was. They went upstairs socks pulled over their
boots to muffle the sound. Found Herb asleep. When they
woke him, he stayed calm, explained he didn't have a safe,
(21:12):
did everything by check, maybe had thirty or forty dollars
cash in the house. He even offered to write them
a check.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Dick was furious.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
They forced Herb up, made him show them around looking
for this safe that didn't exist. During this search, they
found the others.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
One by one.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Family members woke up to find armed strangers in their house.
The killers had brought white nylon cord, not the kind
you'd find on a farm. They'd come prepared. They used
adhesive tape for gags, though they'd remove these before the killings.
They made herb walk to the basement in his pajamas
and slippers. In the furnace room, they had him lie
(21:50):
face down on a cardboard mattress box on the floor.
They tied his hands behind his back, bound his ankles,
then connected the ropes so his legs were drawn up
behind m him. For a forty eight year old man,
this position would have been painful. Kenyon went to the
basement separately. They put him in the playroom next door,
the same room he'd helped his dad refinish months earlier.
(22:12):
They tied him to the sofa. He could hear his father,
but couldn't see him. The kid was surrounded by his workshop,
all his tools and projects, but completely helpless. Upstairs was different.
They tied Bonnie in her own bed. Her hands were
tied in front instead of behind, maybe because she was
obviously frail. She was wearing a nightgown and robe. They
(22:34):
let her stay under the covers. The rope work wasn't
as elaborate as with the men, but she couldn't move.
Nancy was in her room at the other end of
the hall, hands tied in front like her mother. She
was wearing blue pajamas with white trim. The ones she'd
put on after Bobby left. They let her stay in bed,
pulled the blankets up to her shoulders, but the ropes
(22:56):
on her wrists were tight, really tight. The marks they'd
leave showed she fought hard against them. Based on evidence
and confessions, the killing started in the basement with Herb,
probably around one o'clock. They'd been in the house at
least half an hour by then, maybe longer before they
shot him. One of them, probably Parry, cut Herb's throat
(23:17):
with a knife, not deep enough to kill, but deep
enough to bleed badly. Was it a failed attempt to
kill him quietly, torture to make him reveal money, just cruelty?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
We don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
What we do know is Herb clutter lying, tied up
with his throat bleeding, asked them not to hurt his family,
said they had no money, had done nothing wrong. They
used a Savage Model three hundred shotgun Dick had taken
from his father. The killer put a cotton cushion from
a chair over the muzzle, trying to muffle the sound,
and shot Herb in the head at close range. The
(23:53):
blast was devastating. The cushion exploded, leaving cotton mixed with
blood and tissue all over the furnace. Run Kenyon was next.
He would have heard the shot that killed his father.
The killer walked into the playroom, where the fifteen year
old was tied to the sofa. No attempt to muffle
this shot. One blast to the face at close range.
(24:14):
The pattern on the wall showed he was facing his killer.
No cuts or other wounds, just the shotgun blast. Then
they climbed two flights of stairs to the women Bonnie's room. First,
she was lying on her side facing the wall. Evidence
showed she turned her head away at the last second.
Shot once in the side of the head, gun held
(24:34):
inches away. Blood and tissue sprayed across the floor, a wallpaper.
Nancy was last. They walked down the hall to her room.
By now she'd heard three shots. She knew what was coming.
The rope marks on.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Her wrists were severe.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
She'd fought desperately against the bindings. She was shot once
in the back of the head. Killer standing at the
foot of her bed, she turned to face the wall.
The blast destroyed her face, sprayed blood across her stuffed
animals and school pennants. After the murders, the killer stayed
in the house. They washed up in the bathroom, left
bloody water in the sink. They went to the kitchen
(25:12):
and ate milk and cookies. Think about that. They just
killed four people and they stopped for a snack. They
tried to clean up some evidence, picked up the shotgun shells,
though they missed one that rolled under a box in
the basement, took the knife used on herb. Gathered up
extra rope and tape, but they left plenty behind. In
(25:33):
the basement. There was a bloody footprint on the cardboard
where Herb died. Boot print with a diamond pattern sole
size ten would match Perry's boots exactly. Blood Drops led
from the basement to the upstairs bathroom, showing the killer's path.
The rope was distinctive, that white nylon cord you couldn't
buy just anywhere in rural Kansas. They'd used way more
(25:56):
than necessary, wrapping it multiple times, then connecting bindings. The
knots were nothing special, but they worked. Every victim was
completely helpless before being shot. The way they positioned the
bodies told its own story. Family members separated men in
the basement, women upstairs at opposite ends of the hall.
(26:17):
They couldn't see each other, couldn't offer comfort. That's deliberate
psychological cruelty. The murder weapon twelve gage shot gun SupeRx
long range shells at close range, devastating each victim, shot
once in the head, gun held between two and twelve
inches away. Medical examiners said death was instantaneous in each case.
(26:40):
When investigators processed everything, several things were clear. This wasn't
a crime of passion or robbery gone wrong.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
The rope, the.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Tape, the separation, the execution style killings all pointed to planning.
They came prepared to control this family completely. The search
for money was real, but limited. Some drawers opened papers,
moved around in Herb's office, but they didn't tear the
place apart. Either they found the little bit of cash
quickly or gave up when they realized there was no safe.
(27:12):
Total haul less than fifty dollars, kenyons, radio, and some binoculars.
Four people dead for pocket change. There was cruelty beyond
what was needed for robbery or murder. The throat cutting,
the tight ropes that left deep marks separating the family,
making sure each person knew what was coming. These were
killers who wanted their victims to suffer. The time spent
(27:36):
in the house afterward was especially chilling. Most criminals would
run after something like this. These guys washed up and
had a snack. They walked around, stepping over blood like
it was nothing. When they finally left some time before
two am, they left behind a scene that would haunt
everyone who saw it. Four innocent people dead in their
own home, tied up and executed for no good reason. Randomness,
(28:00):
the tiny game, the excessive violence. It all added up
to a crime that made no sense. The Clutters went
to bed Saturday night, expecting to wake up Sunday morning. Instead,
they were woken up to terror, separated from each other,
and murdered by two strangers who drove four hundred miles
based on a lie about money. It achieved nothing except
(28:22):
destroying four lives and shattering a community sense of safety forever.
Sunday morning, November fifteenth, nineteen fifty nine, clear and cold
and Wolcombe people getting ready for church all over town.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
At River Valley Farm, nothing moved.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Nancy Ewwalt and her father, Clarence, showed up around nine am.
Nancy came every Sunday to ride horses with Nancy Clutter.
Nobody answered their knocks.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
This was weird.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
The clutters were always up early, even on Sundays. They
tried the kitchen door, unlocked. The kitchen looked normal, clean, tidy,
nothing out of place. They called out, no answer. Clarence
told his daughter to wait in the car while he
looked around. He went upstairs to Nancy's room. Found her
in bed, face destroyed by a shotgun blast. Her pink
(29:14):
room with all the stuffed animals and school stuff now
a crime scene. Clarence got out of their fast drove
to a neighbor's house to call the sheriff. His hands
were shaking so bad he could barely dial. Under Sheriff
Wendell Meyer got there in minutes, then Sheriff Earl Robinson.
These guys usually dealt with cattle theft and speeding tickets,
(29:34):
not this. They found Bonnie in her room, same thing,
shotgun to the head. Then they went to the basement
and found herb and Kenyon. Despite being out of their depth,
the local cops did good work. They secured the scene,
preserved evidence, noted the important stuff, no forced entry, no
signs of struggle in the main parts of the house.
(29:56):
By late morning, they'd called in the KBI Kansas Bureau
of Investigation. Stay tuned for more of the guilty files.
We'll be right back after these messages. Alvin Dewey took
the case. He lived in Garden City, knew the Clutters personally.
This would become his obsession. When he got to the scene,
(30:18):
it was already turning into a circus. Cops, neighbors, reporters
starting to show up the crime scene told them a
lot phone lines cut. That's premeditation. The killers tried to
clean up, picked up their shell casings but missed one,
left a bloody footprint, distinctive rope evidence they'd eaten food
(30:38):
after killing everyone. Words spread fast. The Methodist church, where
the Clutters should have been that morning, became a gathering
place for shocked neighbors. This kind of thing didn't happen
in Holcombe. People didn't even lock their doors. But here
was the problem. No motive, nothing valuable was missing, no
sexual assault. The Clutters had no enemies. Herb was liked
(31:00):
by everyone. Bonnie was pitied for her illness, but had
no problems with anyone. The kids were popular. So who
kills a whole family for no reason? Do we put
together a good team KBI agents, Roy Church, Harold Ny
and Clarence Dunce. They started with basic detective work. Who
saw the clutters last, what was the timeline? Who had
(31:23):
access to the house. Bobby Rupp got the full treatment. First,
he was Nancy's boyfriend, last person known to see any
clutter alive. Statistics say look at family and close friends.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
First.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Poor kid was devastated and now he was a suspect.
He cooperated completely, took multiple polygraph tests, passed them all.
They made lists of everyone who'd been to the farm recently,
insurance agents, delivery guys, Nancy's four h kids, farm hands.
Everyone got interviewed, everyone's whereabouts got checked. They looked for
(31:57):
anyone with a grudge against herb good luck finding someone.
The man was known for being fair. The physical evidence
was interesting that rope was white and nylon cord not
common in farm country. The footprint, small boot with diamond
patterned soul. The shells told them it was a twelve gage,
but none of it led anywhere specific. One weird thing
(32:21):
what the killers didn't do. They didn't ransack the place,
left jewelry, other valuables, so either they came for something
specific or murder was the point not robbery. Days turned
to weeks no brakes. Fear took over Holcombe. Gun sales
went through the roof. Farmers who'd never locked a door
(32:41):
in their lives installed dead bolts, started sleeping with loaded shotguns.
Neighbors looked at each other differently. Was the killer one
of them? Media went crazy. Family murdered in small town America.
That was front page stuff. Reporters flooded Holcombe. Good for
keeping the case public, bad for the investigation. False leads
(33:03):
poured in from everywhere. Every crazy person with a theory
called in. Dewey's team worked around the clock. In the
first month, over two hundred interviews, hundreds of pieces of
evidence processed. Coordination with cops across multiple states. They looked
at similar crimes, prison escapes, mental hospital releases. Nothing panned out.
(33:25):
By December, the case was ice cold, the killers had vanished.
Some cops started thinking privately, this might never get solved.
Perfect family killed in what looked like the perfect crime.
While Kansas cops chased their tails, Dick and Perry were
leaving a trail across the Southwest. Their big score had
netted them less than fifty bucks. Instead of living large
(33:47):
in Mexico, they were passing bad checks and stealing to eat.
After the murders, they drove to Olath to establish Dick's alibi,
then headed for Mexico, stopped in Kansas City, where Dick
passed bad check for travel money. This became their pattern,
small time crime to finance running from big time crime.
Mexico was a bust. No money, no connections, no future.
(34:12):
The paradise Perry dreamed about didn't exist. For two broke
ex cons. They came back to the States, headed west,
living on petty theft and bad paper. Meanwhile, in Kansas
State Penitentiary, Floyd Wells was hearing.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
About the Clutter murders.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
At first, he couldn't believe Dick Hiccock could be involved,
but the details, looking for a safe that didn't exist,
execution style killings, it all fit. Wells had a problem
in prison, you don't snitch, but knowing the Clutters, especially
those kids had died because of his stories, was eating
him alive. After a few sleepless nights, Wells asked to
(34:50):
see the warden on November eighteenth, just three days after
the murders. He spilled everything told them about Dick Hickock.
How he'd been fascinated by of herb Clutter's money, mentioned
Dick talking about partnering with Perry Smith for a big score.
This changed everything. Finally names faces criminal records. Dewey got
(35:12):
photos of Dick and Perry started showing them around quietly
Bingo gas station attendant in Garden City. Yeah, those are
the guys who asked for directions to holkm on the fourteenth.
More witnesses along the route from Olitha confirmed it. The
case was building, but they needed physical evidence. Dick and
Perry's excellent adventure was falling apart. They were in Las
(35:35):
Vegas on December nineteenth when cops spotted their car. It
was on a hot sheet for bad checks and stolen vehicles.
When Dick and Perry came back to the car arrested,
the Vegas cops had no idea they'd just caught the
most wanted men in America. Dewey got the call and
flew to Vegas with his team. Time to crack these
guys and get justice for the Clutters. The interrogation started thirtieth,
(36:00):
nineteen fifty.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Nine in Las Vegas.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Dewey's team had everything lined up, witnesses, evidence, timeline. They
had one shot to break these guys. They separated Dick
and Perry. Classic move. Dick went first, true to form.
He tried to charm his way out. Yeah he knew Perry.
Yeah they traveled together. Sure he'd passed some bad checks,
(36:25):
but murder, no way. He kept that boyish smile going
acted shocked at the suggestion. Dewey's team laid out their
evidence piece by piece. Witnesses in Garden City, Floyd Wells
testimony their movements after the murders. Dick's mask started slipping.
Perry was different. Where Dick talked and talked, Perry just
(36:48):
sat there, one word, answers or silence. The investigators could
tell he was the more complex one, maybe the more dangerous.
The breakthrough came from playing them against each other. They
told Dick that Perry was talking, blaming everything on him.
That did it self. Preservation kicked in. Dick came up
(37:08):
with a new story. Okay, they went to rob the clutters,
but Perry went crazy and killed everyone. He was just
an innocent bystander, horrified but helpless. Now they had leverage
with Perry. They told him Dick's version, Perry's damn broke,
but his story was different. According to Perry, Dick planned everything,
(37:29):
insisted on no witnesses. Perry admitted killing Herb and Kenyon,
but said Dick killed the women.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Over several days.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
The stories kept changing as each tried to save his
own skin, but the core facts stayed the same. They
went to rob the clutters based on Will's story, found
no safe, almost no money, tied everyone up, killed them all.
The really chilling part was how they talked about it.
Dick described killing Nancy like he was talking about changing attire.
(37:59):
Perry was weird, claimed he apologized to Herb before shooting him.
These little glimpses of humanity somehow.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Made it worse.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
The big question who actually pulled the trigger? Dick said
Perry killed all four in some kind of frenzy. Perry
first said they each killed two. Later he said he
killed all four, maybe protecting Dick, maybe claiming all the
credit in his twisted way. The physical evidence footprint shells,
supported Perry doing all the shooting. March twenty second, nineteen sixty,
(38:33):
the trial started at the Finny County Courthouse, and Garden City,
the town that had been terrorized, wanted to see justice.
Courthouse was packed every day. The prosecution's case was simple
and devastating. They had confessions, physical evidence, witnesses tracking the
defendant's movements. It was overwhelming. The defense, led by Arthur Fleming,
(38:55):
had an impossible job. Guilt was certain. Their only hope
was avoiding the day death penalty by proving mental illness.
Problem was, Kansas had strict rules about insanity defenses. You
had to prove the defendants didn't know right from wrong
during the crime. Good luck with that when they'd tried
to clean up evidence and run to Mexico. The defense
(39:15):
got the guys examined by psychiatrists, but it was quick
and superficial. The judge barely allowed any psychiatric testimony. All
the deeper stuff, Perry's tortured childhood, Dick's head injury never
really came out. The trial testimony was brutal for the community.
Nancy ew Walt talking about finding Nancy's body, Bobby Ruck
(39:37):
breaking down describing his last night with Nancy, Cops clinically
describing the crime scene. It was devastating. Dick took the stand,
stuck to his story that Perry did all the killing.
Nobody bought it, especially when he admitted planning the robbery.
And bringing the weapons. Perry's testimony was stranger. He admitted killing,
but couldn't really explain why about almost not doing it
(40:01):
than doing it anyway. His flat delivery gave everyone chills.
The jury deliberated forty minutes, guilty on all counts. Death
penalty phase was just as quick. Both sentenced to hang.
Dick kept his cocky act up. Perry seemed almost relieved,
like this confirmed what he'd always believed about himself. They
(40:22):
went to death row at Kansas State Penitentiary. Five years
of appeals followed, big legal questions, adequate psychiatric evaluation, fair trial,
with all the publicity, was the death penalty constitutional? During
this time, Truman Capote showed up. He was writing about
the murders, spent a lot of time with both killers,
(40:43):
especially Perry. Their relationship got weird and complicated. Capote's interviews
would become in cold blood. The appeals revealed more about
their psychology. Better psychiatric exams diagnosed Perry as paranoid schizophrenic,
possibly brain damaged from child hood abuse. Dick had antisocial
personality disorder, may be made worse by his head injury.
(41:06):
This context had been missing from the trial every appeal failed.
Some judges dissented, said they should have had better psychiatric evaluation.
Case went to the Supreme Court. They refused to hear it.
By nineteen sixty five. It was over April fourteenth, nineteen
sixty five, after last minute appeals failed, they were executed
(41:29):
just after midnight. Dick went first, last words, I just
want to say I hold no hard feelings. You people
are sending me to a better world than this ever
was Perry. I think it's a hell of a thing
to take a life in this manner. I don't believe
in capital punishment, morally or legally. Maybe I had something
(41:49):
to contribute something, and that was it. The legal saga
was over, but the questions it raised about mental illness, justice,
capital punishment, those are still with us. The executions brought
legal closure, but Holcomb would never be the same. The
immediate aftermath had been dramatic, a trusting farmtown suddenly full
(42:11):
of locked doors and loaded guns. But the longer term
changes went deeper. People's whole worldview had shifted. The clutter
farm became this weird tourist attraction. People would drive by slow,
try to peek in windows. Some even wanted souvenirs The
place that had symbolized success and family values was now
(42:32):
just the murder house. For people close to the Clutters,
it was brutal. Bobby Rupp couldn't shake the guilt of
being the last to see Nancy alive. Eventually left Kansas completely.
Nancy Ewalt had nightmares for years. These people had to
live with both their personal trauma and being part of
this famous case. Beverly and Aviana, the surviving Clutter daughters,
(42:55):
handled the estate and the trial with incredible dignity, but
the cost was hugh huge. They'd lost their parents and
siblings and had to grieve in public, with reporters watching everything.
The church became a focal point for the community struggle
how could God let this happen to good people? Some
found their faith strengthened by the crisis, others walked away
(43:16):
from religion entirely. The theological debates were intense, and personal
law enforcement was changed too. The successful investigation boosted the
kbi's reputation, but the officers who worked the scene carried
those images forever. Several later talked about nightmares about losing
their belief that people were basically good. Truman Capote showed
(43:39):
up in Kansas right after the murders, supposedly to write
a magazine article. What came out was In Cold Blood
in nineteen sixty five, a non fiction novel that created
a whole new genre. Capoti spent years in Kansas, interviewed
everyone connected to the case. His relationship with the killers,
especially Perry, got intense and weird. Some people thought he'd
(44:03):
fallen in love with Perry. This emotional involvement made people
question how objective.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
The book really was.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
The book was huge, bestseller lists, critical acclaim the works.
Capote brought the Clutters to life on the page, which
made their deaths it even harder. His portraits of Dick
and Perry were complex, sometimes sympathetic, especially Perry with his
horrible childhood. It sparked national debates the death penalty. Were
(44:32):
these damaged men or cold blooded killers? The book suggested
American society created both the successful Clutters and the men
who killed them. Heavy stuff for nineteen sixty five, but
there were problems. Some people in Kansas felt Capoti had
exploited their tragedy. Questions came up about accuracy. How could
(44:52):
he know exact conversations he wasn't there for turns out,
he'd taken some creative liberties, mixed fact with fiction. Stay
tuned for more of the Guilty Files. We'll be right
back after these messages. People who were in the book
had issues with how they were portrayed. Dewey felt the
investigation was oversimplified. Some townspeople thought they came off as hicks.
(45:17):
The sympathetic treatment of the killers really pissed off people
who thought it minimized what they'd done. Still in Cold
Blood became a classic. It influenced every true crime book
that came after. It also raised all these ethical questions
we're still dealing with. Who owns a tragedy? Is it
okay to make art out of real people's suffering? Sixty
(45:39):
years later, we're still fascinated by this case. Multiple movies, documentaries, books,
each with a new angle. Why does it endure? Because
it raises questions we still can't answer the big one?
Why why did Dick and Perry kill the Clutters for
basically nothing? Eliminating witnesses doesn't explain the excessive violence. Theories
(46:02):
range from Perry's psychological damage to Dick possibly wanting to
rape Nancy. Capoti hinted at this, but Perry supposedly stopped him.
The randomness makes it worse nature versus nurture. Dick had
a stable childhood but became a sociopath. Perry had a
nightmare childhood. But millions of abused kids don't become killers.
(46:23):
What specific combination creates a murderer? We still don't know.
The death penalty question. Did executing Dick and Perry serve
justice or just add more death to the tragedy. Kansas
has gone back and forth on capital punishment, and the
Clutter Case always comes up in the debate mental illness
and criminal responsibility. Modern psychiatry would handle Dick and Perry differently,
(46:48):
but how much should mental illness matter when determining guilt.
The narrow legal definition in nineteen sixty prevented real exploration
of this. We're still fighting about it. The impact on
rural American life was huge. The Clutter Case marked the
end of unlocked doors and trusting strangers. Small town America
lost its innocence in that sense. Dick and Perry killed
(47:11):
more than four people. They killed a way of life. Today,
Hulcombe has physically recovered, but the murders are still part
of its identity. The town's grown farming has changed dramatically,
but people still come looking for murder sites. Old timers
still talk about before and after the murders. The Clutter
House still stands, privately owned, off limits to gawkers. River
(47:34):
Valley Farm has been broken up. Physical traces of the
crime are mostly gone, but the psychological impact remains. Law
enforcement has evolved incredibly since nineteen fifty nine. DNA databases
profiling modern cops would probably solve this faster, but Dewey's
basic detective work following leads building a case that's still
(47:57):
the foundation. Mental illness and criminal justice has evolved some,
but maybe not enough. The questions raised by Dick and
Perry's inadequate psychiatric evaluation are still relevant. How do we
balance punishment with understanding what role should childhood trauma play?
These debates happen in courtrooms every day. True crime exploded
(48:19):
as a genre after in Cold Blood podcasts, streaming series,
countless books. The ethical questions capoti faced exploitation versus storytelling,
how close to get to killers profiting from tragedy? Every
true crime creator deals with these. The families touched by
the murders have mostly sought privacy. The Clutter daughters rarely
(48:42):
spoke publicly. Bobby Rupp built a life away from the spotlight.
The Hickock and Smith families carried their own burden. These
private griefs remind us that beyond the cultural phenomenon, real
people suffered devastating losses. The Clutter murders were an ending
and a beginning. Four lives ended senselessly. A community's innocence ended,
(49:05):
but it began a national conversation about violence, mental illness, justice,
and the American dream that continues today. Herb Clutter did
everything right by American standards, worked hard, built success, served
his community, raised his family with values. None of it
protected him from two men with a shotgun and a
(49:25):
fantasy about easy money. That fundamental vulnerability shook America's faith
in the connection between virtue and safety. Bonnie struggle with
depression adds another layer of tragedy. Today, she might have
gotten better treatment. Her suffering reminds us of the private
battles people fight, even in seemingly perfect families. Nancy and
(49:47):
Kenyon represented pure potential, Nancy with her achievements and popularity,
Kenyon with his quiet creativity. They were sixteen and fifteen.
Their whole lives ahead of them their death see especially
cruel futures stolen before they really began. Dick and Perry
represent the shadow side of the American story. Failed by family, society,
(50:10):
or their own choices, they became destroyers. Their pathetic hall
less than fifty dollars emphasizes how senseless it all was.
They killed from some emptiness that no amount of money
could fill. The investigation showed American justice at its best
and worst. Excellent detective work solved the case. The defendants
(50:31):
got a fair trial, but the limited psychiatric understanding and
rushed to execution raised troubling questions the system seemed more
interested in punishment than comprehension. Capote's book turned tragedy into art,
creating a new way to examine crime, but it also
raised ethical questions about exploitation and truth that haunt true
(50:52):
crime creators today. The legacy touches everything loss of innocence,
security culture, endless debates about mental illness and justice. The
Clutter case forced America to look at its dark possibilities
along with its dreams. For Holcombe, resilience came with permanent scars.
(51:13):
The community survived, but transformed Locked doors and security systems
speak to hard lessons learned. Maybe the core lesson is
about life's fragility. The Clutters were just living their lives, working,
going to school, dealing with challenges, planning futures. Their destruction
reminds us that every murder victim is a universe of possibility.
(51:34):
Ended relationships, severed, futures erased. The Clutters deserved better than
being remembered as murder victims. They were real people with
full lives, but their deaths became a mirror for American
fears and failures. Their story challenges us to build a
society that identifies and helps the damage before they become dangerous,
(51:55):
pursues justice without losing mercy, and remembers that behind every
every headline are human beings who mattered. The wheat fields
around Holcombe still wave in the Kansas wind. Life continues,
but for those who remember, those fields hold echoes of
when evil came to River Valley Farm. Four lives ended
in violence that shocked a nation and changed how we
(52:18):
see ourselves. This is the Clutter story, a crime that
destroyed a family, transformed a community, and forced America to
confront uncomfortable truths. There's no happy ending, no redemption, just
questions that demand we keep working toward a more just
and compassionate society. That's the only memorial that matters.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
It
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