June 28, 2024 • 35 mins
Research Psychologist and Psycho analytic Therapist, Dr. Frieda Birnbaum. Dr. Birnbaum is passionate about educating the general public about the many forms of emotional manipulation that can take place in romantic relationships; especially gaslighting. The topic of Gaslighting has become an increasingly present fixture in the media, and Dr. Frieda is committed to making sure people are fully aware of what it is, how to identify it, and how to effectively address it for yourself and with loved ones who are involved in abusive relationships.
Dr. Frieda's book: Life Begins at 60:
A New View on Motherhood, Marriage, and Reinventing Ourselves: https://amzn.to/3XDroZ1
What Price Power: An InDepth Study of the Professional Woman in a Relationship: https://amzn.to/3zvZ94o
Join our supportive Facebook group community:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/healthrivedream
Connect with me:
Gmail: healthrivedream@gmail.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/healthrivedream_
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/healthrivedream
YouTube: https://youtube.com/@traumarecoveryexpert
Twitter: https://twitter.com/healthrivedream
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenrobinson2022/
Website: https://www.healthrivedream.com/
Podcast: http://healthrivedreampodcast.com/abuse
Loved this episode? Leave us a comment below.
Dr. Frieda's book: Life Begins at 60:
A New View on Motherhood, Marriage, and Reinventing Ourselves: https://amzn.to/3XDroZ1
What Price Power: An InDepth Study of the Professional Woman in a Relationship: https://amzn.to/3zvZ94o
Join our supportive Facebook group community:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/healthrivedream
Connect with me:
Gmail: healthrivedream@gmail.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/healthrivedream_
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/healthrivedream
YouTube: https://youtube.com/@traumarecoveryexpert
Twitter: https://twitter.com/healthrivedream
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenrobinson2022/
Website: https://www.healthrivedream.com/
Podcast: http://healthrivedreampodcast.com/abuse
Loved this episode? Leave us a comment below.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Heal Thrived Dream podcastwhere trauma survivors become healthy thrivers. Each
month will feature a theme in thetrauma recovery and empowerment field to promote your
recovery, healing and learning how tobuild dreams. Here's your host, Karen
Robinson, transformational coach and therapist.Hello, Welcome to the Heal thri Dream
(00:27):
Podcasts. Today, our guest isdoctor Freda Burnbaum. She is a research
psychologist and psychoanalytic therapist. Doctor Burnbaumis passionate about educating the general public about
the many forms of emotional manipulation thatcan take place in romantic relationships, especially
(00:51):
gaslighting. The topic of gaslighting hasbecome an increasingly present fixture in the media,
and doctor Freeda is committed to makingsure people are fully aware of what
it is, how to identify it, and how to effectively address it for
yourself and with loved ones who areevolved in abusive relationships. So, doctor
(01:15):
Frieda, thank you for being heretoday. Thank you so much for having
me so. As you can imagine, some people are not familiar with the
term gaslighting. Do you have aquick and dirty description of what that is?
Well, nineteen thirty eight. Itactually started in a play where a
(01:37):
husband wanted to make his wife feelthat she was going crazy so he could
steal her money. And they definethat as gas lighting, and today what
gaslighting really is, it's a psychologicalmanipulation of one person to another, trying
to get them to lose their senseof self esteem and to get them to
(02:00):
do what they want them to do. Basically, Okay, and how did
you Where did your interest in gasletting come from? Is it something that
you ran into in the past inyour relationships. Well, I've been in
this business for more than thirty yearsand I've come across a lot of these
(02:21):
situations where couples will come in andI'm reading between the lines and basically what
they look like is not necessarily whothey are. And they present themselves beautifully,
they say all the right things,but the other person is miserable and
why is that? There has tobe a reason for it. So I
(02:43):
looked at it, and I researchedit, and I saw that it may
have been subtle or not so subtleat times, but there were things that
were driving the other person to feelinadequate and losing a sense of themselves in
this relationship, and it's usually onesided. It's usually one person. Doesn't
have to be marital. It doesn'thave to be a relationship. It could
(03:07):
be with business, it could bewith friendships. I mean, you name
it. It's across the board.And some people, salespeople, whatever,
they're very skilled at doing this,manipulating your psyching a little bit to go
in the directions that they want youto go into, which is not that
(03:28):
easy or pleasant. You never know. You have to really be able to
be aware of who you're talking to, right, right, So what are
the consequences for anyone that finds themselvesin a situation where they're being gas lighted.
Well, the consequences are that youdisconnect from your friends, you disconnect
(03:50):
from your relative because you basically wantto get along with your partner or want
to get along with this person inyour life. They will you crazy and
saying this person that you feel adoresyou is jealous of people that you talk
to, of you talking to them, wants to control you. It's usually
(04:13):
a narcissist, very self centered.So those are the type of people and
this is what happens to you duringthis process. And if people tell you,
you look different, you're not actingyourself. That's also a signal that
something is going on that's making youchange. In this situation where you feel
(04:35):
you're being complimented, you feel thatperson really cares about you, but that
person's really chipping away at your selfesteem. Yeah, so it sounds like
gaslighting is just one symptom of manyand impossible domestic violent situations. It can
(04:55):
definitely be symptomatic of that. Yeah, I mean, we're talking about emotional
gaslighting, where a person won't listento you, won't validate what you're saying
at all. And then there's thegaslighting with no respect. They could be
having an affair, they could notbe telling you where they are, or
(05:19):
who their family is, or whotheir friends are. That there's always something
that they're not telling you. Andeven if you try to call them,
they won't be available. They forgottheir phone, they forgot to turn on
their phone. I mean, youknow, give me a break. There's
always something there that makes you feela little off, a little edgy,
(05:40):
a little not quite right. Andthe interesting part about it always ends up
being the victim's fault, and they'revery good and making the victim feel they
did something wrong. That's the sadpart of it. Yeah, it's very
It's very sad for someone to makeyou think that you're crazy when you're asking
(06:03):
them questions that you see evidence ofand their behavior. It's terrible. So
I want to ask you a coupleof personal questions. Of course, if
you prefer not to answer them,I will respect your privacy. A lot
(06:23):
of us who come into the fieldto help survivors is because we've had a
taste of it in some way,either in our childhood, with our families
of origin, or in our datingrelationships or marriages. Does it happen to
be something that's true for you,Yes, absolutely, it's true for me.
(06:44):
And that's why I'm in this fieldto begin with, because I can
feel people's pain. I can feelpeople's turmoil and their doubts about what they're
supposed to do. And it's alwaysthe same thing. Should I please other
people or should I please myself?Pleasing myself means you're a bad person psychologically.
I grew up with a family wherethere were Holocaust survivors my parents,
(07:10):
so forget about pleasing myself. Theywere way more important. I pleased them.
I got married at twenty two,my mother cried to the world,
my daughter's not married yet. Ifelt you went through enough. I didn't
care about myself that much. Ididn't care about any of my issues compared
to what my parents went through.So it was always about who am I
(07:31):
to complain about anything when they wentthrough such health. I'll do whatever it
is to make them okay. Sothat's my personal story how I got into
this situation of trying to please them. Of course, when I did get
married, and I've been married along time, it was about trying to
(07:54):
please my husband. And I thinkon my orientation is that what happens when
you don't want to be subservient?Do you lose the marriage? Do you
have to pay a price? Arepeople going to be very critical of you?
(08:15):
You know, being liked was alwaysvery important to me. That's what
I based my answers on. AmI going to be accepted or I'm not
going to be accepted. When Iwas eighteen and I wanted to act,
my mother says, like being aprostitute, but God forbid I should do
(08:35):
that. I didn't want to upsether. So it's always this back and
forth of you know, being comfortablewith my family before I went ahead and
did the right thing for myself.So what I did was I educated myself.
Okay, they can't be critical aboutthat I got married early. They
(08:58):
can't be about that I had apractice. So I did all the things
that fit into the slot of beingapproved. But then again, where was
I. I wasn't You couldn't findme in there. You know, everything
looked good, But where was I? I was still that girl, that
teenager who wanted to talk to morea lot of people at one time,
(09:26):
wanted to be out there and makea bigger difference. That was my persona
at the time, and I stillam doing that today and that's who I
really am today. So I didn'thave to get a PhD to write a
book. I didn't have to geta PhD to be on a show or
any of the other shows, noneof that. So where I am now
(09:50):
is where I would have been ifI didn't try to prove myself to everybody
else. But then would I havebeen selfish? After all, I live
in a beautiful home and have everything, and my father didn't have food to
eat. You know, I almostdied of starvation, and I would have
had a brother who died of starvation. All these things that really hit home
(10:18):
to me was the direction I wentwith my practice, and I saw that
I could make a difference, andthat healed me. It was like making
a difference to me when I sawthat they were progressing. I believed in
(10:39):
relationships. I kept marriages together,and I could walk away feeling a sense
of satisfaction because I connected to thepeople I was involved with. But I
did see. You know, asfar as relationships are concerned, you cannot
(11:01):
be needy. You have to behappy first. You have to be able
to know what it is you wantto know what to look for. We're
in a situation where we come overdependent. Then the person will control you,
and it's not that person's fault.You're setting up. So you have
to take responsibility for our own behaviorbefore we judge someone else. So this
(11:26):
gas lighting situation is similar. Wouldyou be involved in that if you were
in a better place yourself, wouldyou be less vulnerable to having to hear
what somebody else needs? Because thebest thing to do is to be in
the right place and have somebody joinyou, not to change to make any
(11:50):
differences. It's hard, you know, It's the therapist that you are.
It's very hard to make changes weekly, to restructure, sure, to go
back, to stay in the moment, having gained plans, all that stuff
that we're talking about. A personneeds to want to change first of all.
(12:13):
People that come to see me,they don't even know what they want.
Firse, you have to know whatyou want. You have to know
what you want from yourself in orderto go out and act on it and
put yourself forward. Some people havebeen so repressed that they weren't allowed to
have their own minds and their ownfeelings, and they hold on to that
(12:35):
because that's being the good person.So that's part of why I was interested
in this area. What makes peoplefeel that they have to have agendas to
make another person change instead of lookingat themselves. And you know these people,
(12:56):
you know these gaslighting men and women, the red flags are is that
they will not change. They willjust go on to another partner. They
may go to therapy for a littlewhile, and they may do better in
therapy, but unless they continue therapy. And I believe some people just need
(13:16):
to always continue therapy to reparent itto be and to just be held in
this one place because we all evolvein some way. So that's part of
my treatment after all these years I'vebeen doing, and my own personal connection
to what I'm doing. Of course, I have a family, I have
(13:37):
five kids, I have a husband. But there's always drama and issues and
everybody's life and mine included. Butit does help me and empowers me when
I have the opportunity to work throughmy issues, it makes me stronger.
And having the experience that I've hadfor some years two take what I have
(14:05):
in front of me, and thatis other people's lives and to be able
to mold in shape and change.So it's really a privilege for me to
be able to do that. Yeah, I agree, I feel the same
way. Our work is definitely aprivilege and in healing for everybody involved.
(14:26):
What else has been helpful during yourown healing journey? Did you have a
certain type of therapy that you feltwas more helpful than others? Self care
practices that were more helpful? Lotsof fruits and veggies, like what's your
secrets? Well foods and veggies?It should be my but it's not.
I wish I could say that ispart of my lifestyle here. Well,
(14:50):
my background is Forwardian as a psychoanalytictherapist. You know, I'd have to
be on the couch a couple oftimes a week, and it was expensive,
and to go to the cause ofthe decay of the problem. And
somehow when I go to that placeof having parents that were gave me love
(15:16):
but were not literate. They spokeYiddish and I did my first language.
I couldn't speak English. When Iwent to school, kids were laughing at
me. But so that's you know, my background is that my parents needed
(15:37):
to help themselves, so I wouldtake them places. I was embarrassed by
my parents because they had this brokenEnglish and they who didn't look like all
the other parents. So my motherwould want to go or we called it
at that time, PTA meetings,and I told her, don't come.
(15:58):
So I feel guilty, but Idid those things. Don't come. It's
a normal kid behavior. Though,if you can give yourself a little bit
of a break, that's nice.That was not nice. But you know
what's interesting is I did not knowabout my parents' experience till I got married.
That's when I became yes, Iyou know, I just didn't.
(16:19):
I sort of resented them. Iwas self centered. And who am I
going to go out with? Andwhatever I look like and that stuff.
Like my kids are today, whichI think is funny when I look at
them. Oh my god, flueless. But yeah, so, I,
uh, what was your question?Because I'm rambling on, I want to
make sure I'm giving you the answersyou're looking for. I was curious about
(16:44):
your own healing journey, like whatwas really helpful to you other than you
know, becoming a therapist? Yeah, you know. And I think as
we as we keep alive and longevityand our and our future, we're always
healing. We're always evolving. That'spart of life. If you stand still,
I'll see here to my wonderful son. And I shouldn't be answering.
I'm in session. Called dad justto know something about me. If I
(17:15):
tell my husband I'm in session,I'm free. I can stay in here.
I have to talk about anything,you know. That's my best way
of having myself to myself. Butwhich was I going to say? So?
Yes, I'm always evolving even now, even finding out what it is
(17:37):
that's most important to me. AsI was saying, as long as you
live, you need to keep makingchanges because it makes life interesting. Otherwise
what happens you stay in the sameplace, you say, stuck, and
therapy, by the way, helpsthat. How therapy helps you to keep
growing and to keep changing. Sopeople have come to me in the beginning.
(18:00):
It's still coming to me, butfor different reasons, because they see
that when you're looking at what's goingon in your life, you can make
things happen instead of things happening toyou. So they feel really good about
that that they keep adding on towhat was already better than before. So
(18:21):
I try to do the same thingwith myself. I get up sometimes in
the middle of the night. That'smy best time. I want to text
people and I say, no,better not, I'll wake them up.
Something they'll think of. It's crazywomen in the middle of the night is
bothering me because so I wait.But that's my best time. When I
(18:41):
wake up, there's nobody around.I can google everything what's going on.
I can look things up that areimportant to me, and you know,
making progress as far as not onlywith mental health, but to be able
(19:03):
to know that. You know,life is long enough. You can get
everything in, but you have todo it to get it in. If
you wait, it's not long enough. So it's so easy. It's so
easy to just say I have tocall this person. Oh okay, let
me call this person. Now thereyou go. So instead people write a
(19:25):
note to call the person and thenthey forget. Just you know, you
know that we're just do it.So just do it so because it really
festers inside and builds up and buildsup, and then you have anxiety and
you don't know why. Yeah,well you didn't do this, or you
become this person, or you're supposedto pick this person up, or I
(19:48):
have a podcast, and then you'relooking at them like, what is with
this lady here? What happened withher? I ran out my house,
God forbid, I should ever leave? I relieve, really want another truth
about me? I'm here, Thisis my office, This is where I
see my patients. This is whereI did my zoom calls. I used
(20:08):
to go to the studio after thepandemic, nobody wanted that anymore. So
I just basically live here. Andif I go on, God forbid,
the phone doesn't stop ringing, andthen you're waiting for me because it didn't
come on time, And then Ihave something else that I was supposed to
(20:29):
have done, but it's you know, really setting your priorities are very important
to me with my family, withmy needs, and I don't see myself
as selfish anymore. But I dosee myself as being true to myself and
doing what makes me happy and thenseeing that my kids are okay. So
(20:52):
I have five kids. I makea checklist. One is at the beach.
He showed me a picture. He'ssitting on a towel, not wanting
to touch He said, he's twentytwo years old. It's not poor.
We're not wanting to touch the sandand hate the water. But if some
kids he knew just graduated college,you want to get together with them,
(21:14):
and they're all without their shirts andtheir buff and everything. He's sitting with
the shirt on, with the haton. I said, oh my god,
So should I worry about this?What I said, poor baby,
because he's very sensitive to criticism.He has a hairy chest and it hurts
to get the thing off and whateverthat is. So I think about him,
(21:38):
and I texted him and he says, thank you. So I took
care of that. Then my sonis driving. I have twins, so
one of them stok taking lessons beforethe others. So I said, you
can drive to school. I'll sitin the car next to you. He's
driving, he's turning like he's playingwith a toy or something, you know.
(21:59):
And as you know, I don'tknow if anybody knows what it's like
to be with a child that's justlearning to drive. It's scary. It's
like like you could have any secondsomething's going to happen. Just watch them.
So scary. So he gets tothe front of the school and then
bang, all of a sudden,he hits the curb right in front of
the school. You know, everythingwas pretty much okay. So that,
you know, is part of whatI go through with teenage boys. And
(22:23):
they're the opposite. So, uh, when I talk to one is Josh,
one is Jared, and somebody say, say Jarrett or something, I
don't know, I'm want to talkto and what are you calling me?
Don't you know my name by now? And no, actually no. So
they're very different in the way theyhave a rapport with me, and they
(22:47):
are very different the way one isvery responsible, one is very playful,
so he's always putting the other onedown. And think, well, if
they went twins, the other onewouldn't be so criticized. So it's all
so that kind of manipulation because asyou know, the way you see life,
especially in high school, your frontalcortex is developing. That's pretty much
(23:11):
basically the direction. I hate tosay this, so I want them to
be responsible. I want them totreat other people in a sensitive manner,
to be good to them, togive back more than what you get,
and to not feel that someone else'shappiness is at your expense. On the
(23:34):
contrary, to give and to enjoythat kind of relationship. And hopefully they're
not going to be the statistics we'retalking about, because you really have opportunities
to see through other people, theirgood nature, their direction, taking turns.
(23:56):
I mean, healthy relationship really isone where people take turns, giving
back and forth. And today nurturingand careers are interchanging with one another as
well. So that's another thing thatis flexible that we have the opportunity to
go back and forth to fill inwhat was missing our women or as girls
(24:21):
usually taught to be nurturing and boysto go out in the world, but
each is missing the other, andthen you know, when there's a divorce,
they try to fill in with that, and so when I do it
while you're married with the women whowill try to fulfill a sense of who
they are. And then actually afterdivorce, I'll get into a relationship much
(24:41):
quicker because that was the missing elementof them of themselves at that time.
So you know, I think thereason I'm in this field is because I
really value our companionship, to havesomeone to talk to at the end of
the day, able to connect,to feel understood, or not even to
(25:03):
be told what to do, butjust somebody who hears you. When you're
out in the workforce or with familyor with school, you have to have
a certain type of dynamic. It'sit's important in order to get along.
And when you come home you don'thave to have that, but that's when
(25:23):
the problems begin because you let youfeel too safe and then you let all
your emotions out and a per personin your partner, whoever, your child,
whatever, has to hear all thisstuff, and sometimes it can create
stress. So we have to knowthat has nothing to do with them.
It's just that we, especially ina car, forget about being in a
(25:45):
car together because if you vmt ina car, I mean I've had in
my family. We've had to stopmany times. One time I let my
husband out of the car we wereon a highway because I was going to
kill him first. There's one orthe other, and this per gude.
I'm a mandated reporter. Yes,I'm telling you. And this little guy
(26:08):
thought I was going to definitely pickhim up. I didn't pick him up.
We were going to be sure.We ended up walking on the highway
to my parents in Philadelphia and tooksome subway. And who was so uncomfortable.
I was not a good person,So I was not always a good
person. So these yes, Ican't believe I did that to him.
(26:30):
Yes, so being in a caris not We can't feel too safe.
And it's interesting if somebody else isin my house, then I really get
a picture of how I'm responding,because otherwise I'm like all over the place.
And my teenagers, of course,don't listen to me. And if
(26:53):
I have a patient, I havemy office and my home, I have
a very convenient one of them,My wonderful Josh will tell them I don't
know what I'm doing. Don't youshouldn't see her? Oh, one of
these kids, one of these kidsleaving the house, like, how many
more? How many are in foryears? They have to. So your
(27:18):
twins are the youngest, they're theyoungest. And then I have my twenty
two year old who lives in Hoboken. I don't know where am I call?
Where are we? Where are you? I'm in Alexandria, Virginia,
Virginia. Okay, so this isNew Jersey. So this is closer to
school. It's a lovely place.It's not the Manhattan, big city who
(27:40):
cares environment. It's more it's asmaller city, which is much nicer.
So he's doing extremely well. Healready has Lisben recruited, he already has
work. I'm proud of him withthat. I think my kids I basically
leave them alone a lot psychologically tomake decisions. Homework, doing your homework
(28:07):
and get good grades. You'll goto good college. You're not. You
won't. That's about it. It'sup to you. Ah, you have
to do that. I can't reallydo it for them anyway. What am
I going to sit with? Yousit with them? And the grades sometimes
are not fair. They are fairaccording to who the teachers are. That's
(28:29):
something else. So I think mymotto is, you know, don't sweat
the little things and look at thebigness. Yeah, where are you going?
What is it? What is itthat you want? Uh? What
is important to you? And sowhen we're talking about, uh, this
type of relationship and you can't behealthy to to you can't meet somebody healthy
(28:53):
until you're healthy. Uh, it'sinteresting that men mostly look at a relationship
as part of who they are.And see, I'm trying to get all
my stuff in, I'm packing itall or we're running out of time,
though, I want you to makesure you have time to talk about your
book. Okay, So I lovethat, thank you. So just the
(29:17):
last sentence is that it's important toknow that men look at a relationship as
part of who they are, andwomen look at a relationship of us all
of who they are, and thenthey become too dependent. The men end
up doing what they want, whichis to control them because they become so
dependent, and then women complain andthey come to people like me and yourself,
(29:38):
and then they want to know whathappened. That's what happened. Actually,
So we have to have hobbies andfriends and do our stuff before we
meet somebody who could be gaslighting you. So you'll know that it's not a
good place, but you have toknow what a good place feels like to
begin with absolutely. Okay, I'lltell us about your book. So I
(30:02):
wrote a book when I turned sixty. I was very surprised. I remember
years ago Oprah Winfrey said watch outfor fifty, it's the best. Well,
guess what. I found sixty tobe the best, the most invigorating,
most exciting time in my life.I had insight, stamina, fortitude,
(30:23):
and moved in a direction like Inever moved before, and made progress
like I never did in my life. And the opposite of the way I
brought was brought up. I didn'tcare who said any whatever they said,
and I ended up speaking in public, getting the awards, all this stuff
because I really saw that life isso wonderful if you take those opportunities to
(30:49):
have passion for what you're doing,to follow through on what is important to
you, to be able to sayto people, get out of my way,
I'm coming through. That's what it'sabout. The more you do,
the more critical people will be.Don't go there, don't look for approval,
(31:15):
don't look for people to say you'rewonderful, because guess what, They're
not going to say that for you. They're going to feel Wait a minute,
if she's wonderful, who am I? Now? There are people who
are really in sync with you,and my research has shown that those people
don't manipulate, and those people aresupportive because they're in the same place.
(31:37):
Be with people that are like minded, like yourself, and you'll be able
to not only get support, butyou'll be able to grow forward. So
I'm just telling your listeners, sixtyis fantastic. And guess what, it
gets even better. It has beengetting better. Awesome to hear. You're
in for good times. Be opento it. Don't listen to other people
(32:01):
who would like to be victimized asa second Garrett second secondary game. No
it is not. Nobody wants toidentify you as a victim, but you
can identify yourself as somebody who canmake a difference to yourself and keep going,
keep making those changes and just sayI'm coming through here, I come.
(32:23):
Hey. The title of your book, Oh the title of my book
is Life Begins at sixty. Okay, so you're you're you're preaching your title
and I didn't even it's the same. Yeah, I'm living my title.
I'm living my title. I hadanother book just put What Price Power.
(32:43):
It's all about women and empowerment aswell, and what happens to a woman
when she becomes career and professional.Her life gets much better, her husband's
listen to her husband's Well, ifshe only has want herd as a few
could be, she's really empowered.Very if you could get through a few
husbands, bless you. I could. What is too much already? But
(33:07):
you know, so that's that's reallythe direction I always went into, which
is wow. It's it's something that, look what's in front of me.
When you can't, you can't,but when you can, you can,
and then go ahead and take thoseopportunities absolutely. Now, our listeners who
(33:29):
want to know more about you orreach out to you, what's the best
way for them to connect? Ihave a podcast of the doctor fels d
O c t O R fri ED a show on my website which is
Felled d R fri i d adot com. But you know, I
have other things. But who wantsto trouble with all this information? Who's
(33:51):
gonna remember? Nobody? I'll haveit in the show notes for listeners to
check out. That's okay, that'splenty for them. I hope I made
a difference to somebody. I hopeI got in what I didn't wasn't able
to in the beginning. I haveto apologize I was late to you,
but I hope I could have madesome difference and impact with what I say.
(34:16):
And yes, there's the years goby this. There's so many things
that happen from experience. And Iknow a patient says to me, are
you making these stories up? Orthese really things happening to you? You
always have a story to tell me. When I tell you something I said,
I couldn't make this up. Youknow, this is life. Things
happen all the time. Everybody canwrite a book. Everybody has everybody has
(34:43):
a history of things that happened tothem. It's I think there are many
books to be read and many booksto be written that we can really learn
from. Absolutely well, doctor Freda. We are so appreciative of your time
and wisdom today. Thank you forbeing here with us, my pleasure.
Thank you so much. I reallyenjoyed the interview. Thank you so much.
(35:07):
Be well, thank you, bewell to you, thank you,
thank you for listening in today.Please join US next week, same day
and time. Also, I wouldlove for you to check out my website
heel thrivedream dot com
Welcome to the Heal Thrived Dream podcastwhere trauma survivors become healthy thrivers. Each
month will feature a theme in thetrauma recovery and empowerment field to promote your
recovery, healing and learning how tobuild dreams. Here's your host, Karen
Robinson, transformational coach and therapist.Hello, Welcome to the Heal thri Dream
(00:27):
Podcasts. Today, our guest isdoctor Freda Burnbaum. She is a research
psychologist and psychoanalytic therapist. Doctor Burnbaumis passionate about educating the general public about
the many forms of emotional manipulation thatcan take place in romantic relationships, especially
(00:51):
gaslighting. The topic of gaslighting hasbecome an increasingly present fixture in the media,
and doctor Freeda is committed to makingsure people are fully aware of what
it is, how to identify it, and how to effectively address it for
yourself and with loved ones who areevolved in abusive relationships. So, doctor
(01:15):
Frieda, thank you for being heretoday. Thank you so much for having
me so. As you can imagine, some people are not familiar with the
term gaslighting. Do you have aquick and dirty description of what that is?
Well, nineteen thirty eight. Itactually started in a play where a
(01:37):
husband wanted to make his wife feelthat she was going crazy so he could
steal her money. And they definethat as gas lighting, and today what
gaslighting really is, it's a psychologicalmanipulation of one person to another, trying
to get them to lose their senseof self esteem and to get them to
(02:00):
do what they want them to do. Basically, Okay, and how did
you Where did your interest in gasletting come from? Is it something that
you ran into in the past inyour relationships. Well, I've been in
this business for more than thirty yearsand I've come across a lot of these
(02:21):
situations where couples will come in andI'm reading between the lines and basically what
they look like is not necessarily whothey are. And they present themselves beautifully,
they say all the right things,but the other person is miserable and
why is that? There has tobe a reason for it. So I
(02:43):
looked at it, and I researchedit, and I saw that it may
have been subtle or not so subtleat times, but there were things that
were driving the other person to feelinadequate and losing a sense of themselves in
this relationship, and it's usually onesided. It's usually one person. Doesn't
have to be marital. It doesn'thave to be a relationship. It could
(03:07):
be with business, it could bewith friendships. I mean, you name
it. It's across the board.And some people, salespeople, whatever,
they're very skilled at doing this,manipulating your psyching a little bit to go
in the directions that they want youto go into, which is not that
(03:28):
easy or pleasant. You never know. You have to really be able to
be aware of who you're talking to, right, right, So what are
the consequences for anyone that finds themselvesin a situation where they're being gas lighted.
Well, the consequences are that youdisconnect from your friends, you disconnect
(03:50):
from your relative because you basically wantto get along with your partner or want
to get along with this person inyour life. They will you crazy and
saying this person that you feel adoresyou is jealous of people that you talk
to, of you talking to them, wants to control you. It's usually
(04:13):
a narcissist, very self centered.So those are the type of people and
this is what happens to you duringthis process. And if people tell you,
you look different, you're not actingyourself. That's also a signal that
something is going on that's making youchange. In this situation where you feel
(04:35):
you're being complimented, you feel thatperson really cares about you, but that
person's really chipping away at your selfesteem. Yeah, so it sounds like
gaslighting is just one symptom of manyand impossible domestic violent situations. It can
(04:55):
definitely be symptomatic of that. Yeah, I mean, we're talking about emotional
gaslighting, where a person won't listento you, won't validate what you're saying
at all. And then there's thegaslighting with no respect. They could be
having an affair, they could notbe telling you where they are, or
(05:19):
who their family is, or whotheir friends are. That there's always something
that they're not telling you. Andeven if you try to call them,
they won't be available. They forgottheir phone, they forgot to turn on
their phone. I mean, youknow, give me a break. There's
always something there that makes you feela little off, a little edgy,
(05:40):
a little not quite right. Andthe interesting part about it always ends up
being the victim's fault, and they'revery good and making the victim feel they
did something wrong. That's the sadpart of it. Yeah, it's very
It's very sad for someone to makeyou think that you're crazy when you're asking
(06:03):
them questions that you see evidence ofand their behavior. It's terrible. So
I want to ask you a coupleof personal questions. Of course, if
you prefer not to answer them,I will respect your privacy. A lot
(06:23):
of us who come into the fieldto help survivors is because we've had a
taste of it in some way,either in our childhood, with our families
of origin, or in our datingrelationships or marriages. Does it happen to
be something that's true for you,Yes, absolutely, it's true for me.
(06:44):
And that's why I'm in this fieldto begin with, because I can
feel people's pain. I can feelpeople's turmoil and their doubts about what they're
supposed to do. And it's alwaysthe same thing. Should I please other
people or should I please myself?Pleasing myself means you're a bad person psychologically.
I grew up with a family wherethere were Holocaust survivors my parents,
(07:10):
so forget about pleasing myself. Theywere way more important. I pleased them.
I got married at twenty two,my mother cried to the world,
my daughter's not married yet. Ifelt you went through enough. I didn't
care about myself that much. Ididn't care about any of my issues compared
to what my parents went through.So it was always about who am I
(07:31):
to complain about anything when they wentthrough such health. I'll do whatever it
is to make them okay. Sothat's my personal story how I got into
this situation of trying to please them. Of course, when I did get
married, and I've been married along time, it was about trying to
(07:54):
please my husband. And I thinkon my orientation is that what happens when
you don't want to be subservient?Do you lose the marriage? Do you
have to pay a price? Arepeople going to be very critical of you?
(08:15):
You know, being liked was alwaysvery important to me. That's what
I based my answers on. AmI going to be accepted or I'm not
going to be accepted. When Iwas eighteen and I wanted to act,
my mother says, like being aprostitute, but God forbid I should do
(08:35):
that. I didn't want to upsether. So it's always this back and
forth of you know, being comfortablewith my family before I went ahead and
did the right thing for myself.So what I did was I educated myself.
Okay, they can't be critical aboutthat I got married early. They
(08:58):
can't be about that I had apractice. So I did all the things
that fit into the slot of beingapproved. But then again, where was
I. I wasn't You couldn't findme in there. You know, everything
looked good, But where was I? I was still that girl, that
teenager who wanted to talk to morea lot of people at one time,
(09:26):
wanted to be out there and makea bigger difference. That was my persona
at the time, and I stillam doing that today and that's who I
really am today. So I didn'thave to get a PhD to write a
book. I didn't have to geta PhD to be on a show or
any of the other shows, noneof that. So where I am now
(09:50):
is where I would have been ifI didn't try to prove myself to everybody
else. But then would I havebeen selfish? After all, I live
in a beautiful home and have everything, and my father didn't have food to
eat. You know, I almostdied of starvation, and I would have
had a brother who died of starvation. All these things that really hit home
(10:18):
to me was the direction I wentwith my practice, and I saw that
I could make a difference, andthat healed me. It was like making
a difference to me when I sawthat they were progressing. I believed in
(10:39):
relationships. I kept marriages together,and I could walk away feeling a sense
of satisfaction because I connected to thepeople I was involved with. But I
did see. You know, asfar as relationships are concerned, you cannot
(11:01):
be needy. You have to behappy first. You have to be able
to know what it is you wantto know what to look for. We're
in a situation where we come overdependent. Then the person will control you,
and it's not that person's fault.You're setting up. So you have
to take responsibility for our own behaviorbefore we judge someone else. So this
(11:26):
gas lighting situation is similar. Wouldyou be involved in that if you were
in a better place yourself, wouldyou be less vulnerable to having to hear
what somebody else needs? Because thebest thing to do is to be in
the right place and have somebody joinyou, not to change to make any
(11:50):
differences. It's hard, you know, It's the therapist that you are.
It's very hard to make changes weekly, to restructure, sure, to go
back, to stay in the moment, having gained plans, all that stuff
that we're talking about. A personneeds to want to change first of all.
(12:13):
People that come to see me,they don't even know what they want.
Firse, you have to know whatyou want. You have to know
what you want from yourself in orderto go out and act on it and
put yourself forward. Some people havebeen so repressed that they weren't allowed to
have their own minds and their ownfeelings, and they hold on to that
(12:35):
because that's being the good person.So that's part of why I was interested
in this area. What makes peoplefeel that they have to have agendas to
make another person change instead of lookingat themselves. And you know these people,
(12:56):
you know these gaslighting men and women, the red flags are is that
they will not change. They willjust go on to another partner. They
may go to therapy for a littlewhile, and they may do better in
therapy, but unless they continue therapy. And I believe some people just need
(13:16):
to always continue therapy to reparent itto be and to just be held in
this one place because we all evolvein some way. So that's part of
my treatment after all these years I'vebeen doing, and my own personal connection
to what I'm doing. Of course, I have a family, I have
(13:37):
five kids, I have a husband. But there's always drama and issues and
everybody's life and mine included. Butit does help me and empowers me when
I have the opportunity to work throughmy issues, it makes me stronger.
And having the experience that I've hadfor some years two take what I have
(14:05):
in front of me, and thatis other people's lives and to be able
to mold in shape and change.So it's really a privilege for me to
be able to do that. Yeah, I agree, I feel the same
way. Our work is definitely aprivilege and in healing for everybody involved.
(14:26):
What else has been helpful during yourown healing journey? Did you have a
certain type of therapy that you feltwas more helpful than others? Self care
practices that were more helpful? Lotsof fruits and veggies, like what's your
secrets? Well foods and veggies?It should be my but it's not.
I wish I could say that ispart of my lifestyle here. Well,
(14:50):
my background is Forwardian as a psychoanalytictherapist. You know, I'd have to
be on the couch a couple oftimes a week, and it was expensive,
and to go to the cause ofthe decay of the problem. And
somehow when I go to that placeof having parents that were gave me love
(15:16):
but were not literate. They spokeYiddish and I did my first language.
I couldn't speak English. When Iwent to school, kids were laughing at
me. But so that's you know, my background is that my parents needed
(15:37):
to help themselves, so I wouldtake them places. I was embarrassed by
my parents because they had this brokenEnglish and they who didn't look like all
the other parents. So my motherwould want to go or we called it
at that time, PTA meetings,and I told her, don't come.
(15:58):
So I feel guilty, but Idid those things. Don't come. It's
a normal kid behavior. Though,if you can give yourself a little bit
of a break, that's nice.That was not nice. But you know
what's interesting is I did not knowabout my parents' experience till I got married.
That's when I became yes, Iyou know, I just didn't.
(16:19):
I sort of resented them. Iwas self centered. And who am I
going to go out with? Andwhatever I look like and that stuff.
Like my kids are today, whichI think is funny when I look at
them. Oh my god, flueless. But yeah, so, I,
uh, what was your question?Because I'm rambling on, I want to
make sure I'm giving you the answersyou're looking for. I was curious about
(16:44):
your own healing journey, like whatwas really helpful to you other than you
know, becoming a therapist? Yeah, you know. And I think as
we as we keep alive and longevityand our and our future, we're always
healing. We're always evolving. That'spart of life. If you stand still,
I'll see here to my wonderful son. And I shouldn't be answering.
I'm in session. Called dad justto know something about me. If I
(17:15):
tell my husband I'm in session,I'm free. I can stay in here.
I have to talk about anything,you know. That's my best way
of having myself to myself. Butwhich was I going to say? So?
Yes, I'm always evolving even now, even finding out what it is
(17:37):
that's most important to me. AsI was saying, as long as you
live, you need to keep makingchanges because it makes life interesting. Otherwise
what happens you stay in the sameplace, you say, stuck, and
therapy, by the way, helpsthat. How therapy helps you to keep
growing and to keep changing. Sopeople have come to me in the beginning.
(18:00):
It's still coming to me, butfor different reasons, because they see
that when you're looking at what's goingon in your life, you can make
things happen instead of things happening toyou. So they feel really good about
that that they keep adding on towhat was already better than before. So
(18:21):
I try to do the same thingwith myself. I get up sometimes in
the middle of the night. That'smy best time. I want to text
people and I say, no,better not, I'll wake them up.
Something they'll think of. It's crazywomen in the middle of the night is
bothering me because so I wait.But that's my best time. When I
(18:41):
wake up, there's nobody around.I can google everything what's going on.
I can look things up that areimportant to me, and you know,
making progress as far as not onlywith mental health, but to be able
(19:03):
to know that. You know,life is long enough. You can get
everything in, but you have todo it to get it in. If
you wait, it's not long enough. So it's so easy. It's so
easy to just say I have tocall this person. Oh okay, let
me call this person. Now thereyou go. So instead people write a
(19:25):
note to call the person and thenthey forget. Just you know, you
know that we're just do it.So just do it so because it really
festers inside and builds up and buildsup, and then you have anxiety and
you don't know why. Yeah,well you didn't do this, or you
become this person, or you're supposedto pick this person up, or I
(19:48):
have a podcast, and then you'relooking at them like, what is with
this lady here? What happened withher? I ran out my house,
God forbid, I should ever leave? I relieve, really want another truth
about me? I'm here, Thisis my office, This is where I
see my patients. This is whereI did my zoom calls. I used
(20:08):
to go to the studio after thepandemic, nobody wanted that anymore. So
I just basically live here. Andif I go on, God forbid,
the phone doesn't stop ringing, andthen you're waiting for me because it didn't
come on time, And then Ihave something else that I was supposed to
(20:29):
have done, but it's you know, really setting your priorities are very important
to me with my family, withmy needs, and I don't see myself
as selfish anymore. But I dosee myself as being true to myself and
doing what makes me happy and thenseeing that my kids are okay. So
(20:52):
I have five kids. I makea checklist. One is at the beach.
He showed me a picture. He'ssitting on a towel, not wanting
to touch He said, he's twentytwo years old. It's not poor.
We're not wanting to touch the sandand hate the water. But if some
kids he knew just graduated college,you want to get together with them,
(21:14):
and they're all without their shirts andtheir buff and everything. He's sitting with
the shirt on, with the haton. I said, oh my god,
So should I worry about this?What I said, poor baby,
because he's very sensitive to criticism.He has a hairy chest and it hurts
to get the thing off and whateverthat is. So I think about him,
(21:38):
and I texted him and he says, thank you. So I took
care of that. Then my sonis driving. I have twins, so
one of them stok taking lessons beforethe others. So I said, you
can drive to school. I'll sitin the car next to you. He's
driving, he's turning like he's playingwith a toy or something, you know.
(21:59):
And as you know, I don'tknow if anybody knows what it's like
to be with a child that's justlearning to drive. It's scary. It's
like like you could have any secondsomething's going to happen. Just watch them.
So scary. So he gets tothe front of the school and then
bang, all of a sudden,he hits the curb right in front of
the school. You know, everythingwas pretty much okay. So that,
you know, is part of whatI go through with teenage boys. And
(22:23):
they're the opposite. So, uh, when I talk to one is Josh,
one is Jared, and somebody say, say Jarrett or something, I
don't know, I'm want to talkto and what are you calling me?
Don't you know my name by now? And no, actually no. So
they're very different in the way theyhave a rapport with me, and they
(22:47):
are very different the way one isvery responsible, one is very playful,
so he's always putting the other onedown. And think, well, if
they went twins, the other onewouldn't be so criticized. So it's all
so that kind of manipulation because asyou know, the way you see life,
especially in high school, your frontalcortex is developing. That's pretty much
(23:11):
basically the direction. I hate tosay this, so I want them to
be responsible. I want them totreat other people in a sensitive manner,
to be good to them, togive back more than what you get,
and to not feel that someone else'shappiness is at your expense. On the
(23:34):
contrary, to give and to enjoythat kind of relationship. And hopefully they're
not going to be the statistics we'retalking about, because you really have opportunities
to see through other people, theirgood nature, their direction, taking turns.
(23:56):
I mean, healthy relationship really isone where people take turns, giving
back and forth. And today nurturingand careers are interchanging with one another as
well. So that's another thing thatis flexible that we have the opportunity to
go back and forth to fill inwhat was missing our women or as girls
(24:21):
usually taught to be nurturing and boysto go out in the world, but
each is missing the other, andthen you know, when there's a divorce,
they try to fill in with that, and so when I do it
while you're married with the women whowill try to fulfill a sense of who
they are. And then actually afterdivorce, I'll get into a relationship much
(24:41):
quicker because that was the missing elementof them of themselves at that time.
So you know, I think thereason I'm in this field is because I
really value our companionship, to havesomeone to talk to at the end of
the day, able to connect,to feel understood, or not even to
(25:03):
be told what to do, butjust somebody who hears you. When you're
out in the workforce or with familyor with school, you have to have
a certain type of dynamic. It'sit's important in order to get along.
And when you come home you don'thave to have that, but that's when
(25:23):
the problems begin because you let youfeel too safe and then you let all
your emotions out and a per personin your partner, whoever, your child,
whatever, has to hear all thisstuff, and sometimes it can create
stress. So we have to knowthat has nothing to do with them.
It's just that we, especially ina car, forget about being in a
(25:45):
car together because if you vmt ina car, I mean I've had in
my family. We've had to stopmany times. One time I let my
husband out of the car we wereon a highway because I was going to
kill him first. There's one orthe other, and this per gude.
I'm a mandated reporter. Yes,I'm telling you. And this little guy
(26:08):
thought I was going to definitely pickhim up. I didn't pick him up.
We were going to be sure.We ended up walking on the highway
to my parents in Philadelphia and tooksome subway. And who was so uncomfortable.
I was not a good person,So I was not always a good
person. So these yes, Ican't believe I did that to him.
(26:30):
Yes, so being in a caris not We can't feel too safe.
And it's interesting if somebody else isin my house, then I really get
a picture of how I'm responding,because otherwise I'm like all over the place.
And my teenagers, of course,don't listen to me. And if
(26:53):
I have a patient, I havemy office and my home, I have
a very convenient one of them,My wonderful Josh will tell them I don't
know what I'm doing. Don't youshouldn't see her? Oh, one of
these kids, one of these kidsleaving the house, like, how many
more? How many are in foryears? They have to. So your
(27:18):
twins are the youngest, they're theyoungest. And then I have my twenty
two year old who lives in Hoboken. I don't know where am I call?
Where are we? Where are you? I'm in Alexandria, Virginia,
Virginia. Okay, so this isNew Jersey. So this is closer to
school. It's a lovely place.It's not the Manhattan, big city who
(27:40):
cares environment. It's more it's asmaller city, which is much nicer.
So he's doing extremely well. Healready has Lisben recruited, he already has
work. I'm proud of him withthat. I think my kids I basically
leave them alone a lot psychologically tomake decisions. Homework, doing your homework
(28:07):
and get good grades. You'll goto good college. You're not. You
won't. That's about it. It'sup to you. Ah, you have
to do that. I can't reallydo it for them anyway. What am
I going to sit with? Yousit with them? And the grades sometimes
are not fair. They are fairaccording to who the teachers are. That's
(28:29):
something else. So I think mymotto is, you know, don't sweat
the little things and look at thebigness. Yeah, where are you going?
What is it? What is itthat you want? Uh? What
is important to you? And sowhen we're talking about, uh, this
type of relationship and you can't behealthy to to you can't meet somebody healthy
(28:53):
until you're healthy. Uh, it'sinteresting that men mostly look at a relationship
as part of who they are.And see, I'm trying to get all
my stuff in, I'm packing itall or we're running out of time,
though, I want you to makesure you have time to talk about your
book. Okay, So I lovethat, thank you. So just the
(29:17):
last sentence is that it's important toknow that men look at a relationship as
part of who they are, andwomen look at a relationship of us all
of who they are, and thenthey become too dependent. The men end
up doing what they want, whichis to control them because they become so
dependent, and then women complain andthey come to people like me and yourself,
(29:38):
and then they want to know whathappened. That's what happened. Actually,
So we have to have hobbies andfriends and do our stuff before we
meet somebody who could be gaslighting you. So you'll know that it's not a
good place, but you have toknow what a good place feels like to
begin with absolutely. Okay, I'lltell us about your book. So I
(30:02):
wrote a book when I turned sixty. I was very surprised. I remember
years ago Oprah Winfrey said watch outfor fifty, it's the best. Well,
guess what. I found sixty tobe the best, the most invigorating,
most exciting time in my life.I had insight, stamina, fortitude,
(30:23):
and moved in a direction like Inever moved before, and made progress
like I never did in my life. And the opposite of the way I
brought was brought up. I didn'tcare who said any whatever they said,
and I ended up speaking in public, getting the awards, all this stuff
because I really saw that life isso wonderful if you take those opportunities to
(30:49):
have passion for what you're doing,to follow through on what is important to
you, to be able to sayto people, get out of my way,
I'm coming through. That's what it'sabout. The more you do,
the more critical people will be.Don't go there, don't look for approval,
(31:15):
don't look for people to say you'rewonderful, because guess what, They're
not going to say that for you. They're going to feel Wait a minute,
if she's wonderful, who am I? Now? There are people who
are really in sync with you,and my research has shown that those people
don't manipulate, and those people aresupportive because they're in the same place.
(31:37):
Be with people that are like minded, like yourself, and you'll be able
to not only get support, butyou'll be able to grow forward. So
I'm just telling your listeners, sixtyis fantastic. And guess what, it
gets even better. It has beengetting better. Awesome to hear. You're
in for good times. Be opento it. Don't listen to other people
(32:01):
who would like to be victimized asa second Garrett second secondary game. No
it is not. Nobody wants toidentify you as a victim, but you
can identify yourself as somebody who canmake a difference to yourself and keep going,
keep making those changes and just sayI'm coming through here, I come.
(32:23):
Hey. The title of your book, Oh the title of my book
is Life Begins at sixty. Okay, so you're you're you're preaching your title
and I didn't even it's the same. Yeah, I'm living my title.
I'm living my title. I hadanother book just put What Price Power.
(32:43):
It's all about women and empowerment aswell, and what happens to a woman
when she becomes career and professional.Her life gets much better, her husband's
listen to her husband's Well, ifshe only has want herd as a few
could be, she's really empowered.Very if you could get through a few
husbands, bless you. I could. What is too much already? But
(33:07):
you know, so that's that's reallythe direction I always went into, which
is wow. It's it's something that, look what's in front of me.
When you can't, you can't,but when you can, you can,
and then go ahead and take thoseopportunities absolutely. Now, our listeners who
(33:29):
want to know more about you orreach out to you, what's the best
way for them to connect? Ihave a podcast of the doctor fels d
O c t O R fri ED a show on my website which is
Felled d R fri i d adot com. But you know, I
have other things. But who wantsto trouble with all this information? Who's
(33:51):
gonna remember? Nobody? I'll haveit in the show notes for listeners to
check out. That's okay, that'splenty for them. I hope I made
a difference to somebody. I hopeI got in what I didn't wasn't able
to in the beginning. I haveto apologize I was late to you,
but I hope I could have madesome difference and impact with what I say.
(34:16):
And yes, there's the years goby this. There's so many things
that happen from experience. And Iknow a patient says to me, are
you making these stories up? Orthese really things happening to you? You
always have a story to tell me. When I tell you something I said,
I couldn't make this up. Youknow, this is life. Things
happen all the time. Everybody canwrite a book. Everybody has everybody has
(34:43):
a history of things that happened tothem. It's I think there are many
books to be read and many booksto be written that we can really learn
from. Absolutely well, doctor Freda. We are so appreciative of your time
and wisdom today. Thank you forbeing here with us, my pleasure.
Thank you so much. I reallyenjoyed the interview. Thank you so much.
(35:07):
Be well, thank you, bewell to you, thank you,
thank you for listening in today.Please join US next week, same day
and time. Also, I wouldlove for you to check out my website
heel thrivedream dot com
Popular Podcasts
Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.