Cheryl Parker Talks about ways to Navigate the Grieving Process

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
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Speaker 2 (00:38):
Hi. I'm Caitlin Russell.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
Welcome to the Healing Like Podcast. I am a psychic
intuitive who's been reading tarot cards for over twenty five years.
I'm also Mayhi certified. Join me as I read cards,
share intuitive messages, promote healing, and much much more.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
Hi, it's Caitlin from the Healing Podcast. Thank you for
tuning in. Before I get to my very special guest,
Geral Parker, who is a certified grief expert, does coaching
and workshops, I just want to remind people that you
can find the Healing Light podcasts on the spreaker app

(01:31):
or anywhere you listen to your podcasts. Thank you very
much for listening, and if you have a show idea,
someone you'd like to have me interview or any feedback,
I welcome it. I can be found on Facebook. I
have a Facebook page, The Healing Like NH, Instagram The
Healing and now TikTok The Healing Like NH. So thank

(01:55):
you very much, so send me those show ideas. So
my very special guest is Cheryl Parker, and we're going
to talk about grief and what that, what that means
to everyone and you know how we can get through it,
and so yeah, we'll welcome her expertise. So Cheryl, welcome

(02:18):
to The Healing Like Podcast. Thank you for coming on.

Speaker 5 (02:21):
Oh, thank you so much for having me. Happy to
be here.

Speaker 4 (02:24):
Yes, absolutely So before I get to my questions, I
saw this. I think it was on your Instagram, your
your quote was and I just love this. I think
I'm just hang on to this. Grief is like glitter.
You can throw a handful of glitter up in the air,

(02:44):
but when you try to clean it up, never get
it all. Even long after the event, you will still
find glitter talked into corners. It will always be there somewhere.
And that's just to me that that is the perfect
quote for grief. So let's talk about it a little bit.
So your certified grief counselor grief expert. So what does

(03:10):
that mean for people who are grieving?

Speaker 5 (03:14):
Yeah, so I experienced a family trauma. My eight year
old daughter, Rachel died in nineteen ninety eight, and so
I was thrown into my own grief process. And during
that period, I had an opportunity to do some speaking

(03:34):
about organ donation because I was able to donate Rachel's organs.
And in that process of speaking, I just saw that
I could take a tragedy and inspire others, and I
found that to be very, very powerful. So I knew
at the time I was going through my acute stages

(03:55):
of grief, but I knew I also that there was
a lot of hurting people out there, and everything that
I was learning through it, I found that it's not taught,
and so I just really kind of made a pact
with myself that once I was in a place that
I was able to help others, that I would share

(04:17):
my own experience and my own lessons and help others
to heal. So I just did some training and some courses,
learned how to run the workshops, and took an educational
approach to grief rather than become a therapist or counselor
per se. So I've just kind of made up my

(04:38):
purpose to teach people how to go through the grief
process because we're not taught that, and also how to
support others who are going through it, because I found
people were very ill equipped to help support others through
the process.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, as much needed.

Speaker 4 (04:57):
I mean what, I did a show about grief a
while back, but you know what I know about it
after looking at your website and your social media's you know,
maybe I just don't know enough. You know. I think
that when you talk about someone who's had a loss,
I'm very sorry for your lost Cheryl, But I can't
imagine that losing your child, you know. I think it's

(05:22):
something that is so hard to talk about. It's almost
like it's a taboo subject. When someone says they have
a loss and they lose someone, I think people get
I don't want to say uncomfortable, but you know, they don't.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Know what to do, what to say.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
I mean, they I know where I lost my aunt.
People posted, you know, I'm sorry for your loss and
all that, but that doesn't begin to comprehend, you know,
understand what somebody is truly going through and you know, I, yeah,
you know, I've been a greed. I've grieved for my
dad and other people that I lost and everyone else.

(06:06):
Everyone has such a unique experience. But I think, really
if you would agree that it's just something that people
don't know how to have that conversation.

Speaker 5 (06:14):
About exactly exactly. We're not taught that and you know,
I mean you're thrown into it like like I was,
and like so many others are, and it's kind of
a sink or swim kind of situation because there isn't
a lot of education. And that's that's what I wanted
to change, because when I was going through it, I

(06:35):
needed to talk about it, like everybody grieves differently, but
my way was I just needed to express it. And
then you're right, like people around me were uncomfortable with it,
and I just thought, Wow, this is bizarre to me
because it's everybody experiences lost. Nobody's getting out of here alive,
Like we're all going to experience this in in some

(06:56):
shape or form, And I really really want to normalize
the conversation, like it is so common that people are
dealing with grief it's as common as the weather. Why
why are we not talking about this? I just found
it very bizarre.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, I would.

Speaker 4 (07:13):
I would agree too. It's just I don't know why.
I think people have the have the best intentions, you know,
but they just don't know when it comes to subjects
like grief and losing someone. That just so No, I
think a lot of it is people want to kind
of fix it for you, and I want to make

(07:36):
you feel better. And I just I think if people
kind of go go down that route, right, and I
think you're right, I think coming from it rather than
because everyone can you know, there's a lot of people
who can definitely benefit from from therapy. But the educational
part is I think really is extremely helpful. I find
it extremely unique the service that you provide because they're

(08:00):
there is like anything else, knowledge is power, so their
education is key. And uh, yeah, I think it's a
it's a great approach, and you know, it's it's the
right path that for you to go down. So that's
that's really incredible that you think of it that way,
even though you are in you know, the throes of

(08:22):
your your own loss of your daughter.

Speaker 5 (08:25):
Yeah, yeah, it really all the opportunities just seemed to
keep getting laid out in front of me, like it
was when I. When I look back, it's like I
didn't even orchestrate all of this. It just it just
seemed to be divine intervention and the right people were
put in my path and the opportunities presented themselves. So

(08:49):
uh it started, uh, you know in the hospital when
the doctor asked me if I had considered organ donation
with Rachel, and I said no, but she had, and
they were like, what she was only eight years old.
But five weeks before our family came down with this
flu virus, I was reading an article in the newspaper

(09:10):
about a little boy who had undergone an organ transplant.
He had got two new lungs, and Rachel started asking
me questions about this picture and how why he looked happy,
because he looked like he was in hospital. And I
explained that he got new lungs and that's why he's happy,
and how you get new lungs, and she went back
to playing, and then a couple minutes later popped her
head up and said, well, when I die, I want

(09:32):
to give my organs so I can save kids. And
I thought I had grossed her out with the conversation,
but she just went away and her little mind was
processing it and she embraced that whole giving aspect of it.
And so you know, then five weeks later when she
had a condition called IP complications from a flu virus

(09:52):
where your platelets or sorry, your anybody's attacked the platelets
instead of the virus, and it can get to a
very very low level, and you know, you're supposed to
be able to recover, but in less than one percent chance,
she can get a spontaneous bleed, and that can be
recoverable as well, except that hers was in her brain

(10:12):
and so it didn't present the same way as if
it would have in the other organs, and so they
did brain surgery on her to remove the front left
lobe of her brain, but her brain was too swollen
and she was pronounced brain dead, which was why the
opportunity to donate her organs. And then a few days
later at her funeral, a friend of my brothers was

(10:35):
at the funeral and he worked for a newspaper and
he did a lot of articles about organ donation, and
so he approached my brother to see if I would
do an article in the newspaper, and at first I
was like, no, my daughter died, it's not a news story.
And then I realized I thought about it and thought, wow,
like she made that decision based on something that I

(10:55):
saw on a newspaper, so I felt compelled to pay
it forward, so I said yes to the article. It
ended up on the front page of the Toronto Sun
newspaper and a two page spread on page four and five,
and that friend of my brothers ended up winning an
award for that story, and then his editor submitted it

(11:15):
to the Chicken Soup for the Soul People and it
ended up on page two eighty seven of Chicken Soup
for the Parent Soul Book. So it just seemed like
all of the opportunities were presenting itself. And I ended
up being the national spokesperson for organ Donation and traveled
around and did speaking engagements about it all under the

(11:37):
guys knowing that I was going to have to go
through my own healing process before I was ever going
to be in a position to be able to teach
others how to go through it.

Speaker 4 (11:46):
Wow, that is incredible. Yeah, that is incredible that out
of this terrible tragedy, it's actually Tom some some good.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (12:02):
Wow, what an incredible journey that you've that you've been on.
So when I know when I took psychology in college,
I think a lot of people did, me included. I
think everybody is taught by about Elizabeth Coogler Ross and
her fire age of grief, and you know those are

(12:27):
the basics.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
But you know when I when I when I.

Speaker 4 (12:32):
A grieved for for my my dad when he passed away,
you know, I was expecting, based on what I was
told or taught, that I was supposed to go through
these stages and to me, like I couldn't get past
if I had to say it, like the bargaining phase,

(12:54):
It's like or I would go, I would go like
out of order and all that. So if you could
just touch upon that and kind of explain what that
is and then how it relates to how people grieve.

Speaker 5 (13:08):
Yeah, I actually don't even touch on the stages in
my teachings and through my courses and programs because the
stages were written to be able to express what a
terminally ill person goes through or someone who is going

(13:29):
through terminal illness with a loved one, and she never
meant it to be linear and it just got taken
out of context over the years, and so then people,
because of the lack of education like yourself, thought that
there was like a way that you were supposed to
go through them, or it was a pattern, or you

(13:51):
were going to experience all of them, and not everybody
experiences all the five stages. And if you do, you're right,
you go into them in all kinds of different orders
and different intensities and and and people perceived that, well,
I already went through the anger stage. Why am I?
Why am I angry again? Or I already did the sadness?

(14:14):
Why am I sad again? And it's like there is
no order and there is no uh, specific way that
you're going to grieve. It's it's so unorganized and uh.
And that's what I think messes with people because then
they think, well, am I doing it right? Am I okay?
Am I not okay? And and they're you know, just

(14:35):
all these expectations of the way you're supposed to grieve,
and it's just not true. And I think it really
sets people back and and impedes their healing process.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, I would, I would agree with that.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
Yeah, it's just yeah, because you're right, because everything and
I've said this before that you know, everyone is different,
everyone grieves differently. Now, my hairdresser lost her son to
a motorcycle accident, and I remember talking to her about
it and she said that she goes, oh, Keaitland, don't

(15:08):
you know, don't misunderstand me. She goes, I have my
moments where I break down and cry. She's oddly enough,
she goes, I I I I have a sense of
peace about it.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
It's how she processes it.

Speaker 4 (15:25):
And she feels connected to him because she says she's
she's seen had signs from him. But she said she
feels like an incredible sense of calm, Like she was
really surprised that she wasn't breaking down and going into
like a mental breakdown or you know, crying. She said,

(15:49):
she have her have her has her moments, And I'm like,
that kind of makes sense because you know how you
how you feel about different people that you lose, and yeah,
that that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
So for her, you know, that's that's that's her process.

Speaker 5 (16:05):
So yeah, yeah, when we grieve, we bring all of
us to the process. And you know that is your
your upbringing, your beliefs, your values, your culture, your personality,
your religion, like all of it. You bring all of
that to your process, and then you take into account

(16:27):
the relationship that you had with that person, because you know,
you you spoke to it that everybody is so different,
even the same person dying, and like ten different people
grieving that person, They're going to grieve differently depending on
like all those variables that I just said and the
relationship with that person, you know, and you can you

(16:49):
can have peace round somebody passing, or you can have
the biggest resistance and pain and trauma around the same
situation that's happened.

Speaker 4 (17:02):
Yeah, So I wanted to ask you, as you mentioned,
there are five things to never say to someone who's grieving.
So I just want to go back to what we
first when we first started the conversation.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
About how to.

Speaker 4 (17:19):
How to help people in their grieving process when they've
lost someone, right.

Speaker 5 (17:26):
So, I mean, this is such an open ended conversation
and also dependent on the relationship that you have with
that person. I know that you know, for many years
I would say, you know, I'm sorry for your loss.
You know, it was just kind of a safe thing
to say. But like you said, it's like it really

(17:46):
doesn't speak to anything you know, and it didn't really
like land for me when people said that, I you know,
things that upset me during that time, and things that
my clients have said to me that you know, like

(18:08):
they're in a better place intellectually that might be true,
but that does nothing for the person that is grieving,
you know. And or they had a good life well
that that also might be intellectually true, but it doesn't
mean that you don't want more life with that person.

(18:29):
So there's a lot of things that do nothing to
move somebody's grief forward. So these intellectual things that, like
you said earlier, trying to make people feel better, well,
their response in their sadness or their anger or however

(18:51):
they are experiencing or expressing their grief is appropriate, you know.
It's like, oh, don't be sad, you know. You know what,
of course they're going to be sad. They're supposed to
be sad. It's appropriate to be sad, you know. But
at the same time, you don't have to be balling
your eyes out every day either, you know. Like some

(19:13):
people would criticize, it's like, well, I don't know, she's
not even like crying, Like what's wrong with her? Like
there's just so much judgment around it. So I think
that you should always take the griever's lead on things.
Ask questions, you know, and sometimes you don't necessarily know

(19:34):
what you need, but if you ask them, like, how
can I best support you? Is there something that you need?
Would you rather talk about it or not talk about it? Like,
take their lead, because you cannot assume that you know
what that person needs, or that they need a cheer
up or maybe they just need a shoulder to cry on,

(19:55):
you know, maybe they just need to talk. Maybe they
just need to be quiet and go for a walk
and not talk. So you know, it depends on the relationship,
it depends on the person. But I always encourage people
to take their lead and ask questions about what that
person needs.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
Yeah, that's that's that's great advice and it makes a
lot more sense than yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
All right. So you also.

Speaker 4 (20:23):
Mentioned something about grief being a journey and not a destination,
so and can you expand on that as well?

Speaker 5 (20:33):
Well? Yeah, because grief never actually ends. Like I the
program that I lead with my clients, it helps them
get complete. And the word complete can be a little
deceiving because it could give you the notion that you know,
after you've worked with me eight weeks, the grief is

(20:56):
is finished. But the grief is never finished. What I
mean by getting complete is getting complete with the pain,
so that the pain is no longer running the show.
Because once you've experienced a traumatic loss, then that is
going to stay with you for the rest of your life.

(21:17):
I will never not miss my daughter. Like I was
having a conversation on the weekend with a young lady
who just separated from her husband. And you know, she's
a young woman, and I said, how old are you
and she said thirty four, And I just got this
pang in my heart and I thought, oh my gosh,

(21:39):
Rachel would have been thirty four, and I just like
the reality of that. And I remember leaving my husband
at thirty one, like just you know, so all those
milestones and all those ages and experiences that you carry
on through your life are always going to be a

(21:59):
reminder of them, things that you are not experiencing with them,
or that they're missing, you know, from their physical life.
But you know, having said that, I also remember talking
to a woman who was expressed how her relationship had

(22:20):
changed with her daughter. Now their daughter like turned twenty five,
and it's like, yeah, it's interesting to see how my
relationship has changed. And I said, yeah, I'm kind of
jealous about that. I said, I, you know, because I
didn't get a chance to see Rachel grow up in
her twenties and become a woman and all that. And
I said, I, you know, I really wish that I

(22:42):
had experienced, you know, a changing relationship. And my friend said,
are you sure that you have not experienced that? And
I sat with that for a little bit and I thought,
good about it, and I thought, no, she's right. My
relationship actually has changed with all over the years.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
You know.

Speaker 5 (23:01):
It might not be in a physical way, but definitely
in a spiritual way and in a heart way, Like
it's definitely changed over the years.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Wow, I love that. I absolutely love that. You know.

Speaker 4 (23:16):
I really think by you saying that, that actually gives
people hope. I really feel that people need hope when,
you know, when they've suffered a loss, you know. And
I don't want I don't want to sound cliche, but
you know, I always say it does get better, you
know it, it really does. And you know, like you said,

(23:39):
you just had this new relationship with your daughter. That's
not in the physical sense, but definitely you know, in
the spiritual sense, and how you approach that so and
then I it's fund of interesting, is that you said
the number one, number one question that you're asked is
am I normal?

Speaker 2 (23:59):
Is that? Is that true?

Speaker 5 (24:00):
Yeah? Yeah, because people question themselves, like I was saying earlier,
like you know, am I doing it right? Or am
I okay? Or should I be feeling this way? And
you know, you kind of get a case of the crazies.
Like I remember, I don't particularly use the stages in
my teachings, but I do remember liking to hear about

(24:24):
the stages when I was going through it because it
gave me a framework. It gave me something to frame
what I was experiencing so that I wasn't losing my
mind as I thought I was. So so yeah, you know, underneath,
I know that a lot of times the question might

(24:45):
not be framed that way, but I can tell that
that's what they're asking. It's like am I normal? Am
I doing this right?

Speaker 2 (24:52):
You know?

Speaker 5 (24:53):
Because they start expressing what they're experiencing, and I think
they're looking for some valid and I do not believe
that time heels like I just think that that's a
setup I personally, you know, but probably because I do

(25:13):
this work. It's like, I believe it was the grief work.
It's the it's what you do with that time that
heals your heart. So I am an advocate of doing
the grief work so that you can move forward and
integrate that that grief into your life to be able
to move forward in a healthy way.

Speaker 4 (25:32):
Yeah, I absolutely agree that. I don't like that saying
at all.

Speaker 5 (25:39):
The hair in the back of my neck just stands
up on end when I hear it.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
That's not true. The same thing.

Speaker 5 (25:49):
I remember my girlfriend calling me her dad had died,
and as she called me, it was nine months. She said,
Cherylete just keeps getting worse, like everybody said it would
get better. And I said, well, the longer it is,
the more you miss them, and she's like, oh my gosh,
nobody ever said that. It's like, yeah, everybody thinks that

(26:09):
this time is such a wonderful thing. It's like, no,
the longer they're gone, the more you miss them.

Speaker 4 (26:16):
Absolutely, I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right. I'm I'm so
glad you said that. So then I want to talk
about when you mentioned I saw something about grief brain.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
So what is grief brain.

Speaker 5 (26:34):
Well, in the early stages, I remember driving my son
and I pulled over to the side of the road
and I broke down crying and Sean said, what's wrong, mommy,
And I said, I can't remember where we're going, and

(26:56):
he said, we're going to get me a haircut. And
I was like, oh, okay, where is the hairdresser and
he said, oh, it's right beside the Heart Store. And
there was this little store that was beside the hairdresser
and I had little hearts in the window, so the
kids called it the Heart Store. And so I had

(27:16):
to get myself organized and figure out where I was
first of all, and then where the hairdresser was, and
then how to get from where I am to get
to where I'm going. So that was an experience of
grief brain, like you just can't put the thoughts together.

(27:39):
The concentration isn't there, the focus isn't there, the breakdown,
I mean, the fact that I didn't know where I
was and I had to pull over to the side
of the road and start crying, like there's just this
feeling of overwhelm. And I remember feeling like I had
brain damage. And then years and years later, I had

(28:04):
a concussion and I was leading a grief group and
the ladies were telling me about their symptoms and I
was experiencing the same symptoms from my concussion at the time,
and I said, you know, I just want to tell
you that it feels like you have brain damage, because

(28:26):
it is like having brain damage. I said, I am
right now experiencing a traumatic brain injury, and I am
experiencing the same symptoms that you are describing. And I
can tell you many years ago, when I was in
the acute stages of my grief, I felt like I
had brain damage. And I said, and now I can
tell you with all certainty, it is exactly like having

(28:50):
brain damage.

Speaker 4 (28:51):
Well, you're absolutely right, yeah, because your body does hold agree.
It absolutely does that absolutely, and you know it does
make you normal, it really does. I absolutely get that

(29:11):
that is because that is so true whenever you have trauma,
and that's really what would you know, grieving and includes
is traumatic traic traumatic events.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, the imparts itself onto your body.

Speaker 5 (29:29):
And at first I thought that was cruel, but now
I can see how it's kind because my brain couldn't
take in all of that information. And process it, and
so it would just bring it in in little bits
and just allow a little bit, and it would it
was protecting me from everything. So the fact that your

(29:52):
brain kind of shuts down, it's it's like a protector.

Speaker 4 (29:57):
Yeah, it's a way of protecting your absolutely hundred percent correct.
And finally I wanted to ask you about the empty chairs.

Speaker 5 (30:08):
Mmmm. Yeah, So that's an interesting one. I mean, if
you take it in the literal sense, you know, when
you go through the first year, and that empty chair
around the dining room table, or the empty chair at
the kitchen table or at the island, or you know,

(30:28):
any special occasion you're having, or even a regular dinner
that you're having, or regular lunch or breakfast, and that
empty chair is there, and it can feel like you're
desperate to fill that chair or acknowledge that chair. And

(30:49):
I remember there was a Christmas that my mom wanted
to set the table and set a place for my
daughter because it just seemed weird to have that empty
chair and that empty spot at the at the table,
and you know she needed to do that. So it's like, Mom,

(31:10):
whatever you need to do to comfort yourself, and then
you know she stopped doing it after you know, I
think she did it once. But yeah, there there is
that empty chair and that emptiness that you fell in
your heart. It's like it just is it's a physical

(31:34):
representation of what's going on in our heart. Right, there's something,
there's an emptiness there, there's there's a blank.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Oh that's a really that's really style.

Speaker 4 (31:48):
Absolutely so, well, we've got at a better understanding of
how I can support and how others can support someone
who's in the graving process. And you're really touched on
what it's like to speaking from a personal experience, what
it's like when you grieve and what you've experienced in

(32:08):
all things that you might go through. What else would
you say that you you think is important for people
to understand about grief and what the process is like.

Speaker 5 (32:22):
What the process is like, Well, just that it's it's
not going to be the same for any two people.
And the other huge, huge thing that I learned that
I would warn people about is that when you go
through a traumatic loss, it's not just that loss that

(32:46):
you are grieving. When I when I was grieving Rachel,
it it's like the whole ground got dug up and
I had all these unresolved, other losses in my life
life that had gone unacknowledged, unexpressed, and unresolved. So I

(33:08):
wasn't just grieving the loss of Rachel. I mean, as
you know, along with Rachel's death, I lost my daughter,
but you know, Sean lost his sister, I lost a
role in my life. I lost a friend circle of
all her girlfriend's moms, you know that. So like there's

(33:29):
all these other domino losses that happen when you have
that loss. But also I had had three miscarriages that
for me, it wasn't even on my radar that that
was grief and other losses in my life that weren't
even associated with death that had been unresolved. So learning

(33:50):
that grief was associated with not just death but other
things in my life was very profound. So to just
kind of be paired for other things to get driven
up when you have a traumatic loss, like you know,
a death of a loved one.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Wow, that is so true.

Speaker 5 (34:14):
Yeah. I worked with this woman that her husband had died,
so she lost she lost her husband, but she lost
her partnership, she lost her lifestyle, her financial status. She
couldn't work, so she lost her job, she lost her confidence,
Like I mean, it's just like on and on and
on these other losses that are wrapped up in a death.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, you're absolutely correct.

Speaker 5 (34:40):
Yeah, and she ended up working with me. She did
my program, and you know, she looked at all her
other losses that were unresolved, and you know, she even
looked back when she was nineteen and her dad shut
her down around her artwork and wanting to pursue her art.
And you know, when she finished the program and got

(35:03):
complete with the loss of her husband, she left her job,
she sold her house, and she moved to another province
and went back to art school and followed her dream
that had been put on the shelf back when she
was nineteen. And now she's a practicing artist.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Incredible. Yeah, that is absolutely incredible. I love it.

Speaker 4 (35:29):
Just it's a it's amazing that it's just how how
in depth it goes. So Yeah, Now, if someone wanted
to get help from you and and you know, reach
out to.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
You, how do they I definitely want people to.

Speaker 4 (35:49):
Come to you, because yeah, I think your service you
offer you offers is essential and much needed.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
So how did people reach you?

Speaker 5 (35:58):
Sure? Well, you can reach me through the website. It's www.
Dot adopt DNA so A d A p T d
NA dot com and there's free resources on the website.
There's a free download the Seven stepping Stones to be
Claiming your Life after Loss. And I'm also on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, TikTok. So.

(36:25):
I mean, I can certainly give you my my link
tree links to all my links, and my book that
I've published called My Good Grief Healing from Loss is
available on Amazon, so lots of ways to find healing
for sure, right.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
Absolutely, thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (36:45):
I mean, it's just something that I have been really
wanting to talk about, you know, for for a while now,
and I I thought I understood what grief was, and
then you know, just talking to you just really it's
going to help me be a better, better friend to

(37:07):
my friends and have a better, better experience and and help,
you know, help them the best way I can. So
so thank you.

Speaker 5 (37:18):
It's such a profound privilege to sit with somebody in
their grief, you know, and and wanting to be a
good friend and and wanting to you know, create that
sacred space between you know, in a relationship. It's a
beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
It truly is.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
Well, thank you so much for talking with me tonight.
I really appreciate it. You really shine a light on
something that's not a lot of people like to talk about.
It's very hard to talk about, but it's necessary, so
I really appreciate you coming on.

Speaker 5 (37:54):
Oh, thank you very much. You're very welcome, my pleasure.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
All right, thank you very much.

Speaker 5 (38:00):
Thanks Caitlin,