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July 25, 2025 80 mins
THOUGHT- PROVOKING THURSDAYS ON THE JESSE JACKSON, JR. SHOW came face-to-face with grief as we lose a generation of 80 and 90 year olds who walked the walk that paved the way for our progress. Guest Angee Coman Scott, Founder and host of THE REAL LEVEL UP SHOW, Engineering Coordinator of THE JESSE JACKSON, JR. SHOW, and indie record label exec opened up about losing her mother two days ago, the impact of a generation who set the standard, and how to tend to the grief of others while grieving yourself. This heart-level discussion Was great groundwork for Johnny Mack and Jesse on “The World House.” In a serious discussion about Dr. King’s dream for “community around the world,” we can consider the generations that are departing on the backdrop of what they accomplished, what they endured and if there’s a possibility to save the work they did. 
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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Jessey Jackson Junior looking for to the Justin Jackson
Junior Show on KBLA Top fifteen eighty. In this our
first hour, we're going to have a subject matter and
have a discussion about something that's close to home, something
close to every one of us, dealing with aged parents.

(00:24):
The idea that some of us accept our finitude and
others of us do not accept our finitude makes the
case for the inevitable transition that comes in our lives
and how we choose to handle them, and how we
choose to cope with the idea that we will not

(00:45):
be here forever and neither will people that we love
and profoundly care for. There are five stages of grief, denial, anger, depression,
bargaining and acceptance. And in this particular hour, I'm particularly

(01:05):
grateful that a very close and dear friend of mine,
Angie Coleman Scott, is the owner and radio show talk
show host of The Real Level Up, co owner of
MVP Band Music Production's LLC, and engineering coordinator at The
Jesse Jackson Junior Show. Former operations manager jam Lamb Records,

(01:28):
who recently lost her mother, is willing to share she's
willing to share that which, well, in the recess of
so many of our minds, is a process that we
are going to have to go through ourselves. My father
is now eighty three years old with Parkinson's and every
time I look him in his eyes, I say to

(01:49):
myself that a process is coming. My mother is in
her eighties. A process is coming. And how when and
the reasons why we accept and participate in that process, well,
it has tremendous consequences for our personal growth. In this hour,

(02:11):
Angie Coleman Scott is my very special guest. Angie, Welcome
forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Jesse, thank you for having me on.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
I'm particularly honored that you're here, and I know that
you're here under very difficult circumstances. Recently you lost your mother.
Please share with us the kind of woman that she was.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Ooh wow, I said to myself. I'm going to get
through it because Jesse, as you know, she recently passed
only three days ago on Tuesday, and the exact time
was one thirty pm Eastern Standard time. I'm gonna tell you, Jesse,

(02:51):
how I know the date. It's amazing that you remember
those times in your life. That is like, it's like
it changes. And I remember, Jesse, where I was when
I received the text, and that's how I was able
to see the timestamp of when she passed. It is difficult, Jesse,

(03:16):
but I'm gonna tell you one thing that I am
surprised in in my own self of how I'm handling
it three days later, Jesse, you couldn't tell me that
I'm going to be on a national show talking about this.
There's no way. I have a good friend in Gina.
I told her, girl, you're gonna have to come down

(03:36):
here and pick me up, because I don't know what
I would do losing my mother. But here I am.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
What kind of woman was she? Like?

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Incredible, Jesse, And that's not even a great word to
describe her. Let me tell you what has happened in
these last two weeks as I sat with my mother
day in and day out by her bedside, Jesse, what
I saw. I saw so many people that came into

(04:11):
that bedroom where she was in the hospital, one person
after another after another. Jesse. It was overwhelming. That's how
I can tell what type of person she is now, Jesse.
She's not a you know, a person that's on radio
or television, whatever. She was just an average person living

(04:33):
her life in Burningham, Alabama. But the impact, Jesse overwhelming.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
Is it the impact in other lives and the feeling
of her connectedness to community that made the burden lighter?

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yes, Jesse. The main thing that is helping me and
my four sisters, Ronda, Tracy, Victoria and myself is watching
the impact that she had on not just us, but
the community at large, and watching those faces and getting
the testimony of those who are saying, your mother, there's

(05:13):
no words. She was an incredible woman.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
I'm Jesse Jackson Junior listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior
Show on KBLA Talk fifteen to eighty. We are sharing grief,
a process that all of us will have to go
through in this hour with Angie Coleman Scott, who recently
lost her mother. When we come forward on the Jesse
Jackson Junior Show. In this hour a very special hour
for me, as we discussed the stages of grief. Angie

(05:38):
Coleman Scott recently lost her mother's just seventy two hours ago,
and is it's pretty amazing seventy two hours later for
her to be willing to have a conversation with us
about her loss, but in community, Angie is finding strength.

(06:00):
Her mother was a teacher, an educator, She was over
her school district in Birmingham, Alabama, and she said in
seeing the people that her mother touched and her life
served come through the hospital to say goodbye, to spend

(06:23):
time with her mother was a factor in her own
ability to handle the grief and the loss associated with
her mother's passing. And she welcome forward to the Jesse
Jackson Junior Show.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Again, Jesse, thank you for having me. Like I said,
this is nothing but God right here, because I promise you,
I'm amazed that I'm able to talk through with this.
What You're right, Jesse, it has to do with her
impact on community.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
More on the life of the life your mother chose
to live, the way in which community has shown its
response to that life, and your capacity to cope as
a result of the life that she lived.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
Well, Jesse, you know, you know, starting back on who
she was, you know, she was born in Knoxville, Tennessee,
to very humble beginnings. You know, back then, when you're
born and raised in the projects, the projects wasn't like

(07:38):
the projects as now, I mean it was a place
where you would go and that's where communities start started
in the project, especially in Knoxville, Tennessee. And so she
learned that from, you know, growing up around other people
who were like them. And one thing that she learned
growing up in the projects of note she was taught

(08:02):
to always be the best that you can be. But
on top of that, Jesse she was taught to always
respect and love others as you're being the best that
you can be. Because having that on top of that,
it furthered what she wanted to do in life. How

(08:23):
of an impact she wanted to have on people. That
led her into want to become a school teacher. She was.
She got her education out of the University of Tennessee
in Nashville, and from there she went on to get

(08:46):
her masters in teaching. What she learned about that was
I just want to be the best that I can
be so that when I'm teaching these students, I have
everything that I need to be equipped to teach them
what it is to have an education, a solid education.

(09:06):
And so the type of teacher that she was, she
wasn't a kind that was just going in and teaching
them academics, Jesse, what was incredible about my mom? She
taught them academics, yes, but she also taught them what
it is to be a person here on earth. She
taught them life skills. That's the kind of teacher that

(09:28):
she was.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
You know, I want to comment on that because she
said something just a moment ago that reminded me of
a quote that my father often uses. Were used. She said,
you may be born in the slum, but the slum
doesn't have to be born in you. You said that
your mother was raised in projects in.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Knoxville, Tennessee Knoxville, Tennesse.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
And today when we hear the projects, we think about
nothing but negative connotations. And even though the projects were
a government construct or critical urban housing and development, the
early development of the projects or heralded as a success story.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
And even.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
The Evans family of time, which doctor YEARI reminded us
of yesterday, found joy, They found family, they found comfort,
They found a condition that economically wasn't satisfactory, but they
never gave up on the good times. Appreciated of what

(10:46):
family meant, of the coming together I mean imagine and
not having family together even in the projects. Now the
projects became something else, these stacked of housing and urban centers.
Over time, I'm the poverty, the lack of equal high
quality schools, they became something else. Right. But in that

(11:07):
cultural environment, your mother thrived and her students, in her
final hours came through to visit her to say thank
you for the life that you lived and for touching
my life. And you found comfort, as I understand it,

(11:28):
some joy, no sense of guilt, no shame, no blame,
but gratitude, gratitude, and that gratitude meant something for your
coping capacity.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
It did it did it did. Gratitude is something else, Jesse.
Gratitude really in my life is a healer. It has
healed me for many, many days. And so as I'm
watching these people come in, most people are like, ooh,
too many people listen time with my mother. All four

(12:02):
of us knew that we need to be in position
to invite them in so that they can have a
little bit more time with my mother. That's the kind
of impact that she had, and all four of us know,
except by the way, just a little bit so that
Johnny Michael, anybody can come in and get that last

(12:23):
word with her, that last face time with her, and
that was important, and and she she did that, Jesse,
even going into her latter years. My mom and dad
were elders of the church, of their church right, and
so they weren't seeking those kind of positions, Jesse. They weren't.
My mom and dad were just doing what they were doing.

(12:46):
But it was their pastor that said, you know what,
you guys don't even realize that you're already acting as elders.
May we ask you please? Will you? Will you accept
this position? They reluctantly accepted that position, Jesse, because they
weren't all about titles. They were just about service. They

(13:08):
were just doing what they were taught to do. And so,
you know, teaching was about service to her. You know,
they didn't get paid a lot, especially in Alabama, they
didn't get paid a lot, Jesse. But that's why she
taught us. It's not about the money, sweetheart. It really
is about how you are treating one to another. That's

(13:32):
the richness that you will see as you grow older.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
Jesse.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
That's what I saw. That's what I saw those people
coming in. And I'm telling you, Jesse, that is the
biggest lesson. If I didn't learn anything, she kept telling me,
as you don't run out of the money. Be a
good steward and character of what God gave you, and
watch how God will bless you in You can't put

(14:01):
money on God's favor. You can't. It's impossible.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
So let me share with you some of what you're
teaching me and sharing with me.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Okay, Reverend Al Sharpton, Yeah, and his daughters, Okay. Often
they come to Chicago to be by my father, and
they don't make any public announcements. They don't share the
precious pictures that we take. They just pray with that.

(14:36):
Now that is still mobile and still out here and
still public, because he needs community. That gets up in
the morning, goes through his basic hygiene processes with his nurses.
But by eight o'clock at night, he's home. Reverend Sharpton
and his family get on a plane. They come and

(14:58):
spend private time with that. Very inaudible. Sometimes they just
cry and they hug and they pray with that. And
you're teaching me. Reverend Willie Gable and his wife have
come to Chicago and spent time with my dad. Okay,

(15:20):
you're preparing me for a process of people who just
want to come by and touch him and hold on
to him, and and and and watch him blink his
eyes sometimes and sometimes a sentence or two will come out.
And and I now have to understand, and my family
has to understand, and all of us have to understand

(15:43):
that there's going to be this, this process where the
lives that he touched matters to thousands of people. And
what you've told me is prepare myself to make room
for them, even at this stage of his life, that

(16:05):
my failure to make room for them has consequences and
implications for my own grieving process. That I have to
share this man, I have to share my mother with
the world that they helped create. And that's what you
essentially did. And seventy two hours later, there is a persistence,

(16:25):
Lamelle mc morris would say, and a resilience. The power
to persist is the title of his new book. There
is a power that comes from the sharing in community
of the spirit energy of people who've touched and helped
other people and committed themselves to that process.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
We must carry it on, Jesse. And you know, to
be honest, you know you're my brother. You're a great
You have become a great friend of mine, and I
see you doing that already, Jesse. I I really do
our mutual friends, She says the same thing, encouraging me, Like,
you know what, Angie, keep it going, carry out what

(17:08):
she was carrying in her throughout everyone else. And that's
how you can honor her legacy. Is you won't be
like Winnifred Smiley. I'm not looking for that, Jesse. I
don't want to be like Winnifred Smiley. But what I
want to do, I want to be Angie in the

(17:30):
way that she shared who she was. It was it
was spirit, Jesse. It was energy. It was that frequency
that a lot of people say that you know Angie,
get get on that frequency where she was, and then
you'll understand why and how you want to share who
you are. And it's all about spirit, Jesse. It comes

(17:52):
from God through us to that other person who may
be hurting. And these people, Jesse, they're hurting more than
we are. That's what I'm saying to my sisters. Hey, y'all,
we may have to console others while we're trying to
be consoled, but we're consoling others, Jesse. That's what's incredible.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
I want to pivot a little bit here because I've
been to some funerals with some people that some of
us might consider to be the little people.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Come on, but.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
Man, that was a big old funeral. The number of
people that the choir director touched, the number of people
that Ludella Evans touched, Clay Evans's sister, the number of
people that Clay Evans baptized, the number of people that
Faris Evans baptized, the number of people that they touched

(18:42):
led to some of the largest motorcades I've ever seen.
Then I've seen some pretty big negroes now and what
no flowers there? And wasn't nobody there? And some of
these negroes are so afraid of their own funerals that
they choose cremation and no service whatsoever. Oh wow, but

(19:05):
when they walked the earth man, they raised more cain
than any If you think everybody was coming to say
goodbye and no one came to sayingobye, or the number
of people who came to sacobye, you know, I should
probably have Spencer Leake Junior on my program see if

(19:25):
I can confirm he's the funeral director, to see if
I can confirm exactly what I just said that the
spirit energy of people who gave back and gave of themselves,
who suffered with people who who who participated in life's processes,
including a give and take, is fundamentally different than the

(19:47):
spirit energy of some people who've lived. That's what I
think we came at when he said, you don't have
to be a star the star be just be the sun.
You don't have to be a bush. You don't have
to be a tree, Just be a bush. It doesn't
don't be the best street sweeper. You can be. Be
the best of whatever it is that you can be,

(20:10):
and you can serve. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (20:14):
And it makes a whole lot of sense? Jesse? Let
me let me let me say this real quickly. I
know we gotta go to break The pastor called us,
uh yesterday. I want to say, they have a pretty
decent sized church, right, Jesse. He called us and said, y'all,
we got to find another church. We got to find

(20:36):
one that's double the capacity of what we have already.
He I mean, from the from the people that are
already asking what time, when can we be there? What
what can we do? He's like, Yah, we gotta find
double the capacity of what our church can hold. MM hmmm, Jesse.
That's humbling hmm.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
And and it's helping you with your grief process that
the that the life that your mother lived in community
is a factor in your capacity to move forward because
you move forward in the context of the legacy of
that greatness. I'm Jesse Jackson Junior. This is KBLA talk

(21:19):
fifteen to eighty. Angie Coleman Scott is sharing with us
the grief process on the loss of her mother, who
was a teacher and touched many lives. I'm Jesse Jackson Junior,
listening to Kiev and they talk fifteen eighty and radio
talk show host at the Real Level Up, co owner
of MVP Band and Music Production's LLC, engineering coordinator at
the Jesse Jackson Junior Show, and the former operations manager

(21:42):
at jam LAMB Records. Non other than Angie Coleman Scott.
And you welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
What's again, Jesse, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
I want to talk for a moment about grief and
passing it on to the next generation and the way
in which we handle greef and passing it on to
the next generation. On that question, Angie, I'm raising thoughts
about because every one of us has been through it,
who every one of us is going to go through it.

(22:16):
I don't care if you're rich or if you're poor.
I don't care if you're black, if you're white, if
you're striped or got polka dots. You're going to go
through some grief in your life. And the first phase
is obviously denial. There is a next phase which includes anger,

(22:39):
Ask yourself, where are you in this process? Followed by
anger is depression. Then there's a bargaining that takes place,
a bargaining with yourself, and then there's an acceptance of
the things that you cannot change. Angie. Can you apply

(23:00):
these principles to your process?

Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yes, I can. And I'm to be very straight up
and honest with you and your audience. I was in
denial when she was in the hospital. Grief has already
set in when she was in the hospital, already set in.
I'm gonna talk to you about this, Jesse, and and
you might be going through this as well. My mom

(23:25):
had suffered with dementia, and to be honest with you, Jesse,
that's when she really died.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Say that again, Angie, So she.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
Really died when that dementia took over.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
So my sisters and I were already in the grief
stage before she took her last breath mm hmm. And
so we were already in denial and we were already handling,
trying to handle that that anger while she was still
here on this earth and people were coming in and
people were coming in. Check this out, Jesse. We were

(24:05):
we were dealing with our anger and trying to help
one another to not to go in that depression as
she was still here and people were still coming in,
people were still coming in. Unreal We were like, wow,
this is this is hard to even imagine or even

(24:26):
share with one another what we are dealing with. We
were already there while she was still here. So where
we are right now, and I'll speak for myself, let
me stop saying weed, I'm in I'm in depression right now.
And that's why I'm saying to you that only God, Jesse,
that I can be right be here right now and speak.

(24:50):
But what I do know is that when you give
your life to God, you give your life to God
no matter what you're feeling, you know, And this is
what she's taught is Jesse you know that you got
to keep going. You got to keep going. It might

(25:12):
be a lot of you guys who are listening right
now who are either gone through this or have not yet,
but Jesse, this generation is being impacted by this right
now because grief is not attached by someone being off
this earth. Grief is something that you have lost or

(25:32):
you see that you're about to lose. But you cannot
lose any of yourself in all of that. And that's
why it is so important, Jesse. Like you said, you
got to have that community around you, and you got
to have Jesse, really and truly, you got to have
that the right kind of people in your outer circle,

(25:55):
inner circle, and Jesse, what I've learned to have now
is to have that intimate circle. You got to make
sure that that intimate circle are the right people in there,
that they have you, that they have your back, that
they know you, and some of them can even finish

(26:17):
your sentences. Jesse, while you're going through this grief process.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
You know, I do want to say that one of
the things that I heard you say, whether consciously or unconsciously,
is that the community helped you through the denial and
anger phase. Yeah, they're constant coming helped overcome any questions
that may have been in your mind about the impact
or the value, if you will, that your mother's life

(26:44):
had on other people. But then there's also when you
talk about the depression stage. I can only imagine that
there were conversations you wish you had had, or maybe
even moments where there things that you expressed, or things
that you failed to express to your mother that you
wish you had expressed, or if I could have just
said Mom and Daddy, I love you one more time.

(27:04):
I just want you to want to thank you for college.
I want to thank you for three squares a day.
I want to thank you for the fight that you
put up. I want to thank you for helping me
understand and achieve. Thank you for standing by me when
I couldn't stand for myself. Mama, thank you for writing
me every day while I was in prison, a letter,
loving you, thinking of you. Don't forget to pray. I
just want to thank you to I should have said

(27:26):
it to you before you left, but I don't want
to be in that depressed stage. So you pick up
the phone, you say it now, you say thank you now,
and then you have less resentments. And regrets somewhere in
this process. But again, community is a factor, and a
willingness to talk about it right is a factor in

(27:51):
how and how you cope. And then I gather that
when you hear testimonials at your mother's services, I can
only imagine that you're going to hear stories from people
who've never shared them before, but that matter in this
in this process. Now again, imagine somebody who lives a
life and we ain't got no stories, uh, you know,

(28:14):
no one to help them through this process, and the
bitterness associated with, you know, the energy that comes from
you know, not having been the best you can be
in community. I mean, I can only imagine that there
is that there is going to be a bargaining and
an acceptance, but there's also going to be a smile

(28:36):
on your face at the end of the day because
she left you some energy out here that matters. I mean,
I feel like, you know that my dad is leaving
me with a lot of good will out here, and
I feel like I'm the beneficiaries of some prayers. My
grandmama prayed, and my great grandmama prayed, and I ain't
prayed enough prayers to offer nobody, but I'm just living

(28:59):
in prayer residion.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
You all.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
Talk to me, Angie. Was she a praying woman?

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah? Oh my goodness, Jesse, what Jesse, guess what she
was praying about you? Because I know you?

Speaker 1 (29:10):
Oh wow, yeah, No, she really was. She was like,
I mean, I'm living in some of her prayers. Yeah,
I'm getting energy for some folks who prayed for me.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
And oh she wasn't. And but that's incredible how she
was like that, Jesse. Look, she doesn't even have to know. Look,
she was like this. I don't even have to know
everybody that's around you. But anybody that you say, Angie,
that is a friend of yours, I'm going to pray
for them too. I want, I want, I want good

(29:40):
for them. Whether I've known them, touched them, it doesn't matter,
because that's that's the incredibleness of God. And because we're
talking about community, Jesse, I said this all the time,
especially my best friend over there. We're not put on
this earth by ourselves for a reason. We're not.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
I think that. I think that so much can be
said about your story and how much it impacts all
of us, and I look forward to diving in our
last segment A little Deeper. I'm Jesse Jackson Junior listening
to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty.
When We Come Forward Angie Colemeen Scott on KBLA Talk
fifteen eighty. In this very special hour, Angie Coleman Scott

(30:22):
sharing with us grief. She recently lost her mother in
the last seventy two hours, and she's shared with us
thus far that as the community of people who've come
into contact with her life come by to say thank
you and express gratitude that it is helping her through

(30:46):
the grief process. Some of us think that the best
way to help our families is through estates and laws
and trusts and things like that. Those things are necessary,
but the human touch at these hours means as much
to anyone as any other single thing, because we want

(31:06):
to know when we leave here that our lives mattered,
and that they impacted other lives, and that that spirit
energy matters. In fact, doctor King Angie said on an
occasion he didn't want to be remembered for his Nobel
Peace Prize. He didn't want to be known for the
great speeches that he had delivered. He didn't want to
know for the great accomplishments they accomplished in his life.

(31:27):
He just wanted to be remembered as someone who helped somebody. Andrew,
your mother helped me.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Oh, Jesse, Like I was saying any other segments, we
had to double the capacity of the church. And that's
how you know, you know, Jesse, this this is their generation.

Speaker 4 (31:51):
Man.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
I guess they're the baby boomers, right, So the the
impact that those are leaving, I guess that's your mom,
my mom, your mom and dad, My mom and dad.
They are leaving this legacy left and right, and it's

(32:13):
up to us to pick up that baton and carry
it on. Because now you know, our children now are grown.
It's not like we're trying to teach what our parents
taught us to little children. They're grown children that can
make decisions and make an impact on this earth. And
you know, I love how you are honing in on

(32:35):
the importance of community, and I think this is where
we have gone astray. This what I learned about my
mother in community is that you don't have to be
kin to me by blood, but I'm still gonna take
care of you. I'm still gonna look out for you,
and if I have to, I'm gonna I'm gonna admonish you.

(32:58):
And I think, Jesse, that's kind of where we went wrong.
We're so afraid of correcting one another, even if you're
not kin to me or you're not close to me.
We no longer help that young mother that's in the
grocery store line, that's having a screaming baby and just
you know, whispering to her baby. Let me tell you,
Let me give you a little bit that can help

(33:18):
you with the screaming baby. Right here. That generation is
leaving us, and I don't want that to be lost.
My mother is leaving behind us as children, a slew
of grandchildren, but she got an opportunity to see her
great grandchildren, great grandchildren. She did not want to leave

(33:45):
this earth until she saw my grandchild.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
I was thinking about a quote from Thomas Paine, and
I'm going to take some variations of that quote and
apply it to this situation. He said, for peace, but
if trouble must come, let it come in my time,
so that my children may live in peace. I think
doctor King had a different variation. I prefer I prefer peace,

(34:15):
but if war must come, let it come in my
time so that my children will know peace. And if
difficulty comes, for peace. But if difficulty comes, let it
come in my time so that my children will know peace.
Because of course, a danger to that right and that

(34:36):
is that we would have struggled through the difficult moments
of life to make the world better. And then we
give birth to this generation of people who know peace
that they know not war, they know not trouble, they
know not difficulty, and so hm they have to strike
the balance between knowing what it took to get here

(35:00):
and being able to do something about it and the
sacrifices that were made that they might know peace.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
If that makes sense, it does, it does.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
I'm particularly proud of you on this occasion. I can't
begin to tell you how much you've helped me and
how many people you're helping by your capacity to handle
a difficult moment in your life. And when we multiply
this moment times hundreds of moments, and then thousands of
moments and then millions of moments, I'm not so sure

(35:33):
that all of us know how to process grief and
or whether or not we process grief together. But I
do believe when you touched upon this idea of growing
up in the projects that similar circumstances created by segregation
fostered a different community of love, of feeling of good

(35:57):
times in spite of in ways that by the time,
as Reverend Yeerie said yesterday, when we become the Jeffersons
and we're moving on up, the same community ain't up there.
We're down here with Fred and Lamont, were over here
with the Junkyard Dogs, and we in the projects, and

(36:17):
there's this sense of community. By the time were moving
on up and we get some neighbors we don't like
and were hanging out there, go to Archie Bunker and
he's running to all the troubles that we've never had before.
And she were very proud of you on this occasion.
Tell us about your sisters and the people that your
mother leaves behind.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Wow. Well, I do want to give out a shout
out to somebody else's very you know, near and dear
to your heart, her grandson, who is your engineer Jesse. Wow.
First of all, thank you, Thank you to you and
your crew to giving him an opportunity because you don't know, Jesse,
the impact of having our chilln ldren to sit in

(37:02):
and watch, you know, watch all the things you guys
are talking about. I see a change in my son
and and it really started with him sitting at the
feet of my mother to understand that. You know what,
when you are sitting in front of someone who is
pouring into you, you sit, you sit there, you listen,
and you glean from that, and that's how you become better.

(37:24):
My sisters, we understand that, Jesse, we understand that to
the core. And now what's you know what's interesting Right
now we're sitting at the feet of each other because
see I'm here in Atlanta and all the rest of
them are in Birmingham, and now we have an opportunity
to sit amongst you know, uh, the company of each
other and learn from each other as we talk about

(37:47):
what Mom used to do and say and all that
good stuff. So it's it's incredible and I want to
I want to leave this last lasting thing to your
your listening audience. We made a point, Jesse, that we
did not allow my mother to watch the news in
her last hours of her life. Wow, we didn't do it,

(38:09):
you know why?

Speaker 1 (38:10):
For what?

Speaker 2 (38:11):
For what, Jesse? All it would would have done was
break her heart. Jesse It would have broken her heart.
And what she wanted to pour into us in the
last hours are good things to go forth with. She
would have had all that in her mind and in
her heart and then start to worry, what's gonna happen

(38:34):
with my grandchildren? What's gonna happen with my great grandchildren? Oh,
my goodness, wire they're in this world, what's gonna happen?
She would have done that, and so we cut it off.
We wanted to spend hours and moments where it's just us,
because you know where the power is. It's not what's
happening on that boob tube is what I call it. Sometimes.

(38:54):
It was what she's trying to pour into us, to
let us know that you, as one and as a
group of you can make a difference in this world.
That's why we didn't turn it on.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
You know, I mean, I am feeling goosebumps right now
thinking about that that. You know, I am so news
obsessed that how do we we turn it off? You
have to turn it off in order to share and
engage in that human moment. And it's not a twenty
four hour conversation when we're interacting with our family, when

(39:27):
we're interacting with our children when we're trying to pour
love into them. It isn't a constant reaction to what
some producer or some editorial editor determines we should have
in our head. We should not let this world so
many aspects of it live in our head. Rent free.

(39:48):
There you go, and we're gonna make and those of
you who are engaged in that obsession, you ought at
least make them pay you for the space that you
pie in your head, and you think for being on
the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. When we come forward, it
will be with the World House and Johnny mc auntie.
Thank you for being on the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
Breaking news, Chuck Mangioni dead at age eighty four, Hulk

(40:13):
Hogan on this day dead at age seventy one. Today
and yesterday, and for the last few days we've been
remembering the life of all of our brother Malcolm Jamal
Warner who passed tragically recently in Costa Rica, and of

(40:35):
course the death of Ozzy Osbourne. You know, when I
was growing up, my mother would send us down south
to spend time with Grandma Tibby and Grandma Hellen and
Grandma Tibby was one of those wonderful old souls and
old spirits. Whenever she heard thunder and lightning outside, she
would say, the Lord is at work. So she would

(40:58):
turn the TV off, turn the radio off, we would
all gather essentially over in the corner. We're talking fifty
five years ago, over in the corner, because she wanted
us to be quiet while the Lord was doing his work.
And so we are in a season where the Lord
is doing his work. And in a real sense, when

(41:19):
I think about Angie and before I introduce our host
for this hour and the World House conversation that we
have with Johnny Mack, in a real sense, television brings
relationships into our space that are not personal, and we
go through an unnatural grieving process.

Speaker 3 (41:41):
That is.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
I didn't know Hulk Hogan. I didn't know Chuck BANCHIONI,
but I know their music. I know Chuck. I know
Hulk Hogan's Sioux flexes and work in the ring and
his politics I didn't agree with, And like most of us,
I grew up with Malcolm Jamal Warner like my extended brother.
I met him maybe on one or two occasions, but

(42:05):
I didn't know him well enough to have his phone number.
But I let them all into my head as factors
in the personality that I ultimately developed, and so yes,
we grieve with their families. But these are not necessarily
the relationships of the person that who lives immediately next
to me, to my right, or in front of me,
or even the person I ride next to on the
bus who I have more contact with than I do.

(42:28):
Men and women who come to me through the television
or through the radio, think about that, as we seek
to build a World House for our nation and our world,
that we have more empathy and or sympathy for people
whom we've never met then people we come into contact with.
Every day, you're listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show,

(42:51):
and on these Thursdays we are very, very fortunate and
blessed to have with us. Johnny Mack. Johnny is the
founding director of the World House Project. Well traveled throughout
America's Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East, explicating Doctor
King's call for restructure the social for restructuring the social
edifice and its triple evils of poverty, racism, and militarism

(43:15):
with the revolution of values that are affected through peaceable power,
And I was thinking about Johnny, welcome forward to the
Jesse Jackson Junior Show. First and foremost, thank you, Jesse.

Speaker 4 (43:29):
It's always good to be.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
Here, Johnny. On this moment, I'm thinking about the grieving
process because of our previous guest. But in our home,
our world house, our home, there is death. There is death.
Death is a factor in something that we have to
cope with, and our capacity and an only degree for
people that we know, but our capacity degree for people

(43:53):
that we've never come into contact with, is a factor
in our capacity to develop empathy. I mean, I have
a few Israeli friends. I have plenty of Jewish friends
here in the United States. I have a few Israeli friends,
I have a few Palestinian friends here in the United States.
But I develop an empathy for people that I don't

(44:18):
know in parts of the world when they find themselves
warring and fighting. I know probably less than a handful
of Ukrainians, and yet I am involved in mankind. I
know a handful or less of Russians, but I am
involved in mankind. I know a lot of Africans, and

(44:38):
what takes place on the continent of Africa does impact me,
but I know fewer Africans here in the United States.
But I project this knowledge and this connection with people
who are suffering, not necessarily on the basis of personal relationships,
but because I feel like doctor King was trying to
tell us, Johnny, that somehow we're part of a whole.

Speaker 4 (45:01):
Yeah, indeed he was that we are interconnected, inescapably interconnected.
And of course one of us is most famous, I
think and remembered Quolt says, whatever affects me affects you paraphrasing,
And that's what the World House is all about. We're

(45:25):
in this house. There's none other, certainly won't be another
in our lifetimes, Jesse, and we have to figure out
how to live together and in peace. By the way,
the King's quote does often recited. You know, we must

(45:45):
learn to live together, and very often we leave out
those last couple of words, in peace.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
In peace. Yes, I'm Jesse Jackson Junior. This is KBLA
Talk fifteen eighty. You're listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
Our guest in this hour is Johnny Mack. He's a
contributor to our program on the World House, where we
explore the broader connectivities between people around the world and
explore or try to explore the revolution and values necessary

(46:15):
to bring about a more just world. I'm Jesse Jackson,
Junior Woman Come Forward More with Johnny Mack Johnny Listen.
I was just thinking about the capacity. We had so
many problems at home domestically that they're too numerous to
actually go through all of them. But doctor King is

(46:35):
asking us to do something else. He's also asking to
be to look at the world across borders, to look
at this across oceans, to look at this concept and
the interconnectedness of man in faraway places. He once said,
a nation or a civilization, a nation that's just a country, right,

(46:55):
But a civilization that continues to deuce soft minded men
and women purchases its own spiritual death on an installment
plan that somehow our interconnectedness is tied to the idea

(47:16):
of civilized behavior and living in a civilization itself. Help us?

Speaker 4 (47:25):
Yeah, So civilization, civilized? What what is it? How do
we understand it? You know? Much of human development social change?
Jesse and human development might be a term academics used
to describe how humanity has evolved over time, created societies

(47:46):
and ordered those societies, and that term is essentially what
we call civilized civilization, But really what is civilization? What
are what is is a civilized people. Civilization is how
we decide to order society and how we interact with

(48:11):
that order, and that order interacts with us, and we
interact with each other. In other words, how do we
treat each other? And how do we create a world
that treats us? Who does it benefit and who does
it burden? That's what being civilized is all about. And
when King talks, I believe about a civilized order, he's

(48:36):
talking exactly about that the civilization. Do the civilizing processes
treat each of us and all of us equally, giving
us equal opportunities to enjoy the benefits that the society
we creates all or as I say, does it ben

(49:00):
fits of and burden others? And if so? Wise so?
And more important, Jesse, what do we do about it?

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Johnny, I do have this question about definition. It seems
to me that the model, the very model of what
it means to be civilized or civil discourse is largely
based on a European model. We don't even consider other
models of civilization. To be civilized? Is what White folks

(49:29):
say civilization is how we relate to the world America first,
which for me in and of itself using the English language,
is uncivilized. If we are on this global sphere, moving
through a cosmos at multiple times the speed of sound,
and traveling around the universe at hundreds of thousands of

(49:55):
light years per day, when one looks at the size
and the scope within which the gallery itself is spinning,
and we realize that man is not the center of
all things, not even the center of this universe. We're
not the center of that. Earth is not the center
of all things, and it's not even flat. Why is it?

(50:17):
The Eurocentric model and definition of civilization doesn't even include
something as basic as other considerations and other forms of
civilization that have not been warring, that have not been
so destructive, that have actually looked out for their neighbors.

Speaker 4 (50:37):
Well, of course, you know that's a function just here.
Who controls the power of structures of society and who
sets the rules, and how are those rules maintained? What
gives them durability and sustainability. The answer to that question

(50:59):
is largely the the bureaucracies, the institutions and organizations that
are put in place, and that, of course has been
a process over time. We experience the colonial slavery period,
the colonial period, and now an imperial period and beyond.

(51:21):
But people of colored generally have not been part of
that process, but have been subjects, of course to that process.
And so a certain segment of society, particularly European western

(51:41):
northern hemisphere, has set the social order and the rules
that drive how we interact with each other. And again
who benefits and who burdens? And so that raises the
question how do we change that? Once again, are we
stuck in this social order? Recall that King says that

(52:07):
the social order must change, the edifice that produces beggars
must be restructured. The question again is how do we
do that and who does it?

Speaker 1 (52:18):
I stumbled on another quote that I hope invokes some
of your thinking by doctor King. He said, if I
lived in China, or even Russia, or any totalitarian country,
maybe I could understand some of these illegal injunctions or
even presidential executive orders. But somewhere I read of the

(52:43):
freedom of assembly. Somewhere I read of the freedom of speech.
Somewhere I read of the freedom of the press. Somewhere
I read of the greatness of America is the right
to protest for the right doctor King's moral compass in
a real sense, correct me if I'm wrong. Johnny seems

(53:03):
to be redefining the order of civilization in the direction
of these individual freedoms.

Speaker 4 (53:14):
Yeah, King, I believe certainly relied on the very pillars
and instruments that created the order as we understand it today,
particularly in the United States. We call his dream speech.

(53:34):
And he's simply demanding what the Constitution offers all of
its citizens, and he's holding the nation accountable to what
it says is the true meaning of its creed. King
did not live long enough to experience, Jesse, what you

(53:55):
and I are experiencing. And I would challenge us to
really reflect on what experienced in what we're experiencing today,
and would he really, would he really analyze the problem
today as he did in his time? Which of us?

(54:19):
Who of us? And did King anticipate this authoritarian move
not only here in the United States, but you began
our conversation speaking globally, this global move away from democracy
to something else, to some autocracy, A redefinition of what civilization,
of what a civilized society means and is, how did

(54:44):
that happen and why has it happened? This is an
important question for ordinary people. Those who are listening to
this radio, to this podcast now really needs to consider
and understand.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Doctor King said, call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism,
but there must be a better distribution of wealth within
this country for all of God's children. He didn't shy
away from the idea that maybe Marx was right, that

(55:24):
certain basic fundamental rights are inherent in our birth as people.
He went through a litany of them in the last quote.
But absent, of course, the right to a public education
of equal high quality, the right to health care of
equal high quality. For what does it matter to be

(55:46):
free when you get sick if you're not entitled to
the same level of health and care that other Americans,
by virtue of their birth, by virtue of their worth,
are seemingly entitled to. In a democracy, we're not talking
about aristocracy or oligarchy or even authoritarianism. We are talking

(56:11):
about a system where high quality healthcare at the Mayo
Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic is available for people around
the world who fly here on lear jets and very
private planes get top building at these hospitals, and people
who live right there in Rochester, Minnesota, people who live
right there in Cleveland, Ohio, don't have access the same

(56:34):
quality of care in their own nation. And doctor King
seems to me, Johnny, to be saying, I don't care
what you call it. Call it something basic that people
are entitled to.

Speaker 4 (56:54):
Yeah, so what we call it is not as important
for King as the values that undergirded right, which is
why he calls for a revolution of values, because he
understands that the values that undergird or support become the
pillars of our system of poverty, racism, and militarism, or

(57:19):
compunity and greed, that is, rivalry and bigotry. These values
are what create the opportunity for the few to dominate
the many. And we call that democracy, we call that liberty.
What's wrong with that logic? How is it that we

(57:42):
have a logic that allows the accumulation of all of
our efforts into the hands of a very small, minuscule
number of people while the majority toils day in and

(58:02):
day out. Not being dramatic, what is wrong with this
civilizing process, this civilization that we've created? And again, how
do we change it? We relying. We are relying on
others to do what I think King has called us
to do, and that's to determine the type of society

(58:25):
we want, and then to demand that society not only
to demand a jesse, but to work for it, to
take the action to realize it.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
You know, Johnny, I don't know how we do that
without a supreme example. Now, I am not talking about
a supreme leader. I'm not talking about Nayatola. I'm not
talking about president for life Kim Jong Un. I'm not
talking about dictator for life Vladimir Putin. I'm talking about,

(58:58):
given what we talked about in the last episode, the
last hour, a recognition of our affinitude, which means the
value system to which I believe doctor King is articulating
and you are expounding, is a value system that is
one linear in that it is passed on and the

(59:18):
expectations of the people themselves, have a high source of
consistent moral leadership, that teaches the people by the way
in which it conducts itself and the way in which
it behaves, and that the spirit energy flows from the

(59:41):
very top of the system itself in a form of
an unprecedented, unrecognized moral authority, not military authority, not financial
or fiscal authority, but moral authority where the human conscience
itself becomes the vehicle by which we make judgments and

(01:00:05):
discernment in the realm of our individual freedoms. Does that
make sense, Johnny.

Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
It makes sense to me. You know, you're talking about
authority and morality. Authority ultimately, we talked about this, I
think in our last episode to Jesse. Authority ultimately has
to reside in the people. People are what gives a

(01:00:36):
society its moral bearings. And if the people refuse to
carry out their role or somehow precluded from carrying out
their role and abandoned that role for others, then King

(01:01:01):
is saying that we've got to find a way to
reorder the structure so that the people's deliberating, deciding, and
acting by the way his definition of freedom can take place,

(01:01:22):
and the people have to deliberate, the people have to decide,
and that people have to act on the type of
society they want.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
So does that you know I've only got just a
few seconds, so I'm I'm going to wind this up.
But when we do come forward, Johnny, I want to
ask you the question is that from some book, is
that idea from the Bible, from the Koran, from the Tora,
is that from some law? Or is this a free
for all where we the people in a democracy get
to establish certain moral codes that are in some kind

(01:01:52):
of ethical relativism that aren't based in anything that's grounded,
and any philosopher can show up and give us a
new moral code. I'm Jesse Jackson Junior listening to the
Jesse Jackson Junior Show on kb Lavetalk fifteen eighty. When
we come forward more MAC fifteen eighty. Our very special
guest on this Thursday is doctor Johnny Mack. Johnny Mack,
founding director of the World House Project. Well traveled throughout Africa, Asia,

(01:02:15):
Europe and the Middle East, especially the America's explicating Doctor
King's call to restructure the social edifice and its triple
evils of poverty, racism and militarism with a revolution of
values that are affected through peaceable power. Johnny, Welcome forward
to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. Engage Jesse, Johnny. I

(01:02:37):
want to say this because I think that an argument
can be made that so much of our civilization might
have to be torn down for the reflection necessary to
give birth to the kind of society that doctor King

(01:02:58):
was talking about, that constantly propping this thing up requires
a burning And I think doctor King once used the
quote that I feel like I've encouraged my people to
integrate into a burning house, into a burning world. And

(01:03:20):
I'm wondering if if all of our efforts to put
the fire out might be exacerbated by the present political
era that we find ourselves in.

Speaker 4 (01:03:34):
Johnny Well, the present political period we're living in really
challenges us, I think, Jesse, in ways that we just
have not been challenged before. We've reinterpreted it. We're in
the middle, in the middle of reinterpreting the very constitution

(01:03:59):
upon which which we find ourselves today. That is, the
morays and norms that we accepted, particularly through the mid
twentieth century, a radically being changed to a new world order.
So it's not as if at some point this system

(01:04:25):
has to be torn down. To use the term I
think that you that you've used, it's in the process
of being torn down as we speak. It's in the
process of being restructured, Jesse. As we speak. When King
says we need a revolution of values in order to

(01:04:46):
change the social edifice. There is a revolution of values
taking place as we speak. The value of authoritarianism is
one and so the very revolution of values and this
new world order that King called for and the restructuring
of the social edifice Jesse Jackson is taking place. The

(01:05:07):
problem is we are not making that change. The people
he called upon to reorder the social edifice, the people
he called upon to infuse a certain set of values,
are not the players on the stage of this restructuring

(01:05:28):
of our social systems.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
So let me ask you that question, then, Johnny, let
me let me push back a little bit, because I
learn as much from you just listening from your infinite wisdom.
But I also learned from the pushback. Right, So okay,
let's say we weren't being torn down or burned down
by those who are doing the tearing down and the

(01:05:51):
burning down, which is not my recommendation but may be happening.
But who and or what would have been the alternative?
Doctor King is gone. Many of our battle weary and
ready soldiers are gone in the struggle for social justice.

(01:06:15):
Whose value system are we talking about in this moment?
I'm saying to myself that we don't live under the
declaration of Independence with its lofty ideals of all men
and women being created equal. We live under this republic
over here where one side of one half of the
country believes that its constitutional values are exactly what they're doing.

(01:06:39):
And then they're are constitutional values largely interpreted by Thurgood
Marshall and now by Katanji Brown Jackson and Sotobayor. Which
is an America that seems to be fleeting. But then,
on the other hand, let's say that their ideal America
came forward, what does that look like? Are there alternative

(01:07:00):
ti executive orders that bring forward the social edifice and
the challenges to the three triple evils that doctor King
uh talked about in that World House vision. Or are
we talking about a void and a blank space that
needs to be filled by some radical dreamers and some

(01:07:22):
radical idealists who believe in practical reality.

Speaker 4 (01:07:26):
Mm Well, I think that the idea that it's an individual,
even a group of individuals who should determine or would
determine what our social order should be, how our society

(01:07:49):
should be organized, and who should benefit and who should burden,
would not be consistent with King's point of view. Rather,
hel like Gandhi, would say that that responsibility is all
of ours. We all have the responsibility to play a part,

(01:08:11):
and I don't think he would argue that that happens
solely at the ballot box. They We talked about this
a bit in one of our past episodes. Voting is important,
for sure, I mean, we must vote, but we votes
must be informed activities. We should understand what we're voting for,

(01:08:34):
who we're voting for, and why we're voting as we vote.
That's just one example that leads to a much broader
discussion I think Jesse in two respects. One has to
do with the the structures themselves that we as ordinary
citizens can play a role in, rather than looking to

(01:08:59):
the political and the economic thea civic has a certain
structural framework. And then the second is the values themselves.
As we've argued before, those values are up to us.
It's up to every citizen. The question is, as you asked,

(01:09:21):
whose values? What values you know?

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
Johnny, Let me let me just add if I might
that Raphael Warnock, Senator Raphael Warnock is obviously in the
tradition of Martin Luther King Junior. He's the pastor of
Theezer Baptist church, certainly the New Edifice in Atlanta, Georgia.
And he says that a vote is a kind of

(01:09:48):
prayer that we offer, that we cast for the kind
of world that we want to build. And he seems
to have connected the vote to more than just an
act of exercise or an act of joining a local
gym and something we throw out there. But to your

(01:10:08):
point about the thoughtfulness of all that is represented, requires
a consciousness on the two votes you and I are
going to cast when we cast them, I have no
doubt in my mind that when Johnny Max into the
folding Blaze, it's going to be a thoughtful one vote.
And I have no idea that there's no absolutely no

(01:10:29):
chance that in my mind when I cast my vote
is not going to be thoughtful. So there's two votes.
But I don't know if everyone has given much thought
to the idea that well, I need to I need
to put some kind of some kind of divine energy
behind my knowledge of what this is that I'm casting
in the context of this framework.

Speaker 4 (01:10:51):
Yeah, so you know, there's so much in what you
just said, and particularly Senator warnockx notion that a vote
is a prayer. We can take that in many many directions.
You know, prayers in many respects, a hope that someone
somewhere can do something about those things that ailed me,

(01:11:15):
and so a prayers a hope for something that will happen.
But this motion of casting vote is something that happens
at a moment in time. A vote is not something
that happens as a process over time. And so while
we must vote in time, we must also prepare ourselves

(01:11:38):
to vote as a process over time. Problem is, our
social structures don't lend themselves to that exercise. In our quotity,
in lives and our day to day living. We're so
busy with the media, soundbites and distractions, whether it's an

(01:12:00):
ad or a silly show.

Speaker 1 (01:12:03):
It ain't gonna get heavier than that KBLA Talk fifteen
A m. Jesse Jackson Jr. When we come forward more
with Johnny Mack this final segment of our show none
other than Johnny mac. Johnny is the founding director of
the World House Project. He's an extraordinary thinker, a very
reflective person, and I'm so grateful that every Thursday He's

(01:12:26):
decided to share with us. Johnny, Welcome forward to the
Jesse Jackson Junior show.

Speaker 4 (01:12:30):
I always appreciate the invitation, Jesse.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
Thank you, Johnny, it's your show. Hey, let me ask
you this question. I think in this final segment, I
always asks ask our guest to offer a final word
of hope. And it's quite possible, Johnny, that the entire
week that our executive producer has structured the show. It

(01:12:54):
really it comes down to everything that you discuss when
we start days, when we go through Tuesdays, when we
get to wealthy Wednesdays, we end up at the World
House at the end of the week, and then of
course our executive producer comes on on Friday and we
reflect upon the week that culminated in the Johnny Mackshow.

(01:13:16):
I'm wondering, Johnny, when we talk about this world House,
not in the abstract, but what it really really looks like.
If Johnny mac articulating doctor King's vision, had some kind
of capacity or power to envision a world that there

(01:13:39):
would be peace, that we could live together, that the
idea of selfishness has its place, maybe in a system,
some form of system that encourages innovation. I think doctor
King understood the significance of that, but that the overwhelming

(01:14:03):
idea of civilization was part of a Christian ethic of
caring for our neighbor and looking out for people who
cannot look out for themselves, regardless of their race, regardless
of their sex, regardless of whether they are urban, suburban rural,
whether they are an agricultural worker or an agricultural community,

(01:14:27):
or whether they are a suburban village. It seems to
me that this vision is beyond the very structures which
stretches our imagination to something we have not seen. Johnny,
what does that imagine look like?

Speaker 4 (01:14:44):
That's a very big question, Jesse. I certainly don't pretend
to know exactly the vision that King had. We recall
his mountaintop speech, and he looked over and he's got
a glimpse of the promised lend. He never described in

(01:15:05):
that speech what he's all, but he gave us I
think in his short thirteen year campaign, Jesse, he laid
the stones, the stepping stones in so any ways, I
refer you, for example, to his treatise, his article, his

(01:15:30):
speech called the Ethical Demands of Integration, and there King
describes what an integrated society would look like. He's not
describing the picture itself, but what he's describing, Jesse, are

(01:15:52):
the values which would be employed in creating that picture.

Speaker 3 (01:16:03):
Of what we might call and he called the beloved community,
which is that, in my view, a metaphor for the
World House.

Speaker 4 (01:16:15):
In that article, King talks about three basic ideas that
out as three basic values of dignity and freedom or liberty.
In the thirdest community. You know, when we talk about

(01:16:39):
a revolution of values, and you ask the question whose values,
who would argue against all humans have an equal measure
of dignity and worth. Some do argue against it, for sure,
but rational, right minded people would generally except that all humanity,

(01:17:03):
irrespective of any characteristic we ascribe, ought to have some
measure of equal dignity and worth. And then the second
is liberty. And these are interconnected values, Jesse. If I
have dignity, I ought to have that liberty to exercise
that dignity, The freedom, the opportunity. So this is the

(01:17:27):
second fundamental value that paints the picture of the world
that King I think is envisioning. And then the third
simple value that everyone, it seems to me, would not
object to all things being equal, rational thoughtful people, people

(01:17:49):
of goodwill, is community. If I have equal dignity between
you and me, and we both have the liberty to
exercise that communit that dignity. Then we live in community,
and I must, in that community allow you this space,
the liberty and the exercise of your dignity, while you,

(01:18:13):
in community with me, offer the same.

Speaker 1 (01:18:18):
I don't think that could be better stated. I mean,
I would agree with every single thought and the direction
of the thoughts and the spirit within which you've articulated
those thoughts entirely. I would only argue that we seem
to have normalized our system and its values, which is

(01:18:40):
largely based upon how we behave as functionaries in an
economic system. That all of us are aiming for retirement.
Everybody wants a certain level of comfort and material stability, satisfaction,
that our values are largely driven by not the world

(01:19:04):
that you just articulated, but by you know, I'm retreating
to my castle, to my space, to that which I've earned,
to that which I own, to the end of the
news program or now increasingly, when I was growing up,
you know, sometime after the weather they talked about the economy.

(01:19:25):
I can't quite remember when the news began with how
the Dow Jones average starts. It had moved up in
the news too. It's before the trauma of the day,
what the Dow Jones industrial average is doing. In fact,
my happiness or sadness in this system is tied to
the performance of Standard and Poores now the industrial average,

(01:19:48):
the Nieck and other markets around the world. What happened
in Japan last night or in the European exchanges the
night before is a factor in my American happiness, not
what it was meant to be Johnny, Yeah, yeah, Jesse.

Speaker 4 (01:20:04):
You know, we've said before that, you know, human beings
act in accordance with the truth as they perceive it
to be right. We should never forget that. And so
what forms that perception the very things you're talking about, Jesse,
the media. You know, what we consume, what served up

(01:20:28):
to us in
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