July 15, 2025 • 38 mins
with Rev. Teresa Hord Owens, husband and Minister of Music, Walter Owens stands in for his wife, literally, "Staying at the Table" as reviews her book and engages it with the call to the ministry of music in all faiths to come out of the choir stand to lead the ministry of justice. Owens engage the conversation around a second book, "The Dangerous Act of Worship," questioning what would happen if the robed-choir were to greet ICE agents in peace psalms and joyous melodies of praise.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Jesse Jackson Junior. Welcome to the second Wild Program.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Today.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
We are going to be discussing in this hour the
dangerous act of worship. Now, if there ever was a
oxymorn the idea that worship can be dangerous, it's something
we will discuss today with doctor Walter Owens, who serves
as doctor Charlie Dates and the thirteen thousand member of
(00:24):
the Congregation of the Salem Baptist Church of Chicago as
its Minister of Music and Arts, a role that includes
leadership to ten arts related ministries and more than five
hundred people. He completed his undergraduate work at Northwestern University
in music and education and graduate work at Butler University
in Indianapolis, Indiana in conducting. Yes, he is a formal conductor.
(00:49):
He's a magic faculty member at the Moody Bible Institute
and at Columbia College, where he conducts the Gospel Repertory
Ensemble and the Gospel Choir. Doctor Owen's welcome forward to
the Just Jackson Junior show.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
While it is so great to be here today.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I am so honored that you are here and you're
filling in for none than my favorite Reverend Teresa Hoard Owens,
your lovely wife, the president of the Disciples of Christ Church.
Please give her our very best.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I sure will, Doctor Owens.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
This book has obviously piqued your attention as something that
I think we're going to have to really really discuss today,
this book The Dangerous Act of Worship. Why is worship
so dangerous?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Well, let me first say give kudos to my wife
and who is currently leading the General Assembly of the
Christian Church Disciples of Crisis while she's not here today,
and she asked me to sit in and to talk
about her book, a new book, this thing at the
Table of being mature, which we say we are.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
And as I thought about what I.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Can reflect upon, I thought about a book that I
have just recently become aware of and it's really been
transformative to me, called The Dangerous Act of Worship. I
was reading the book staying at the table, and it
was encouraging every believer or whoever would read the book
(02:24):
to start with the limitless love of God. Everything we do,
everything we who we are just about what we believe
about God. And I was trying to figure out so
as a as a worship leader at Arts Administration, Arts
Administrator educator, How do I read that book and what
(02:44):
does that mean to me?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
And I was I was provoked.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I was convicted that so many of us who lead
creative teams in the church. And I'm a churchman south
side of Chicagoingerwood, born there, raised there, uh, and now
have served many churches across many denominations. Our worship is
so private, and it's it's what we sing, is things
(03:15):
that we do, It's often not how we act. And
so as I read this book, uh uh, everything led
to if I believe this about God, that I must
do this. We often say, if if I believe this
about God, that I must sing this, I must. You know,
it's so private, is everything we do in our liturgy
and everything that we come together to do on Sunday morning.
(03:41):
But what what happens after we leave Sunday morning worship.
How does that worship find this way in the streets
and in our lives? How does our worship, our private worship,
become our public witness? And so reading the book just
provoked me and and I tried to read it through.
(04:03):
Read it through the lens of a late person, read
it through the lens of a clergy, A music pastor
and read it quite frankly as the life partner of
the author, and I was moved in so many ways
about so many things. And again, this book came up
about the dangerous act of worship, and so little has
talked about how we live out our love for God
(04:27):
and our worship for God. It never or often never
makes its way into the streets, into our public witnesses.
So this book just just really made me think about
so many things. And Mike Marx labratin just just the
premise of the book was that, uh, the dangerous act
(04:49):
of worship is really waking up to everything that the
Word of God tells us to do and be, and
not just sing it.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So, you know, I appreciate that was I read part
of what Mark Laverton wrote in The Dangerous Act of Worship,
living God's Call to Justice, and in it he says, Jesus,
if anything was and is awake, that's the not for
those who encounter him in the Gospels. He came to
make a world of those who are awake, awake to God,
to each other and to the world. Waking up is
(05:21):
the dangerous act of worship. It's dangerous because worship is
meant to produce lives fully attentive to the reality as
God sees it, and that's more than most of us
want to deal with. I'm Jay Jackson Junior. You're listening
to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. In this hour on
KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. Our very special guest is none
(05:42):
other than doctor Owen's. When we come forward and we're
talking about the book The Dangerous Act of Worship, Living
God's Call to Justice, and just before the break, I said, Jesus,
if anything was and is awake, that's the shock for
those who encounter him in the Gospels. He came to
(06:02):
make a world of those who are awake, awake to God,
awake to each other, awake to the world. Waking up
is the dangerous act of worship. It's dangerous because worship
is meant to produce lives fully attentive the reality of
God as God sees it, and that's more than most
of us want to deal with. Now, I'd like to say,
(06:27):
Doctor Owens, that this is one of those times where
I come up with one of my own little quotes.
We don't need to understand, we need to innerstand and overstand,
understand nothing. We understand and overstand everything because we in it.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yes, help us.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Right here make sense of this idea that we are
supposed to be wide awake.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Well, let me read the passage that he talks about
or takes his phrase from, about waking up and it's
divers Ephesians at think five fourteen. It's his wake up sleeper,
rise on the dead, and Christ will shine on you.
And this is a great message of really transformation, and
(07:19):
it suggests that believers can move from a state of
spiritual darkness to one being illuminated if you will, by
Christ's presence or even the Word of God. And again,
as I read Staying at the Table, I try to
I tried to read it again through those lens. I'm
her husband, I'm a church leader, I'm a late person.
What does it mean for me? One of the things
(07:41):
that I do most of the time and in my
work is leading people in worship. If I'm leading people
and get this, doctor Jackson. A pastor takes the time
that he takes in worship forty minutes to an hour
(08:02):
at all depends what church are going to. He lends,
gives way for the music to have at least thirty
minutes in front of the people in the congregation. If
we are taking up that time in people's live, spirits
and hearts, what are we really saying. Now they're those
(08:24):
who will comfort me and say, this is all about God.
Worship shouldn't be by anything else. And you know the
conversations people have about social justice issue that doesn't belong
in the church, and why you are doing that.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So we we left churches.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
You know, me from membership at the Salem Baptist Church
with the Reverend James T. Meeks who eventually became Senator.
To James Meeks, many people took, you know, took sides
whether or not you know, you know, the discussion should
preachers be in politics? Let me tell you what he
showed me. He showed me not only should people be
(08:57):
in politics, but the church should be at the forefront
of moving, uh, moving, moving the people of God forward
and moving moving the kingdom.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
That's that's what just moving the kingdom forward.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
And he would often as you know, he dried up
the liquor stores in the area. He come back to
the political dynasties and the system there.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
He he took us to crack houses and what he
would do, and this is where I hang my head.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
He would have the singers go first.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
He would have us. Now you have to understand, I
came up background before I came to Salek. My work
was in the choir stand. It was on the Poopit
is of the mic. It never made its way out
into the streets until he helped us to see that's
where it belongs. There's a scripture that talks about sending
you the first, now those of us, and you have
(09:57):
to understand some of the artist members are from church.
Is where sending you to first means praise? You know,
we praised first.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, But in context that Judah was a.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Tribe of singers that they sent before the battle.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
There was something powerful that God put in music.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And if you will, in worship that does what we
cannot do because we fight not against blessing blood. But
it's spiritual. And so when you bring that element to
the table, Uh, it's a it's a two ed sword,
so to speak.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
And Ribbondicks taught me, or showed me that your work
begins when you lead worship service. And so what staying
at the table to me suggests to me that if
I start with the limitless love of God, UH, and
it causes me to worship. Then again, the book Dangerous
(10:53):
Acting Worship says, then you must do something, you must act.
It's the same thing that UH repent Terry is saying. Book,
don't just be silent. If you start with the limits
of love of God. There's so many roads you cannot
go down and places you must start from. So I was,
I was provoked, moved, transformed. When Mark Labratin says this
(11:17):
is the dangerous act of worship, and he gives several
examples of.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Of UH across the world.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
One of the people who have stepped forward and allowed
the gospel and allowed their worship to be more than
just private.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
One of the things, one of the things that I
admire so much about about your wife, the General President
and Minister of the Disciples of Christ, is this she
has one foot in the pulpit, yes, and one foot
in the struggle for social.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Justice in this nation. Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
One of the reasons Reverend meets his ministry is so
profound that he had one foot in the pulpit, but
he had another foot in the state legislature. Yes, to
get liquor stores, yes, and drunk folk by drying out
the community from being around the church while folk coming
and going right, and the lack of sobriety in the neighborhood.
(12:15):
And we as a people need to stop calling liquor
store after liquor store, half a dozen of them on
the same block as economic development. That ain't no economic development.
And we got so used to seeing it that way
that Reverend Meeks said, I'm standing up to that. One
of the things that I admire about Reverend doctor Todd
(12:36):
Yerie on Wednesdays, Wealthy Wednesdays on this program. He has
one foot in the pullpit, but he's a lawyer. He's
also got one foot in criminal trials and one foot
in civil trials, and he's arguing before judges and juries
every single day, but preaching on Sunday, yes, And I
mean he sees something in those churches and in those
(12:59):
courtrooms and strikes a balance in his life that is woke.
That requires a different kind of activists. I think about
Reverend Attorney William Barber, who's both a lawyer and both
a minister and yet a champion for the poor.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I think about Martin Luther King Junior, not just a
seminarian and a PhD. But who was challenging the law.
And in this moment, when I think about, you know,
directing or conducting a choir, what would it mean? And
I guess this is rhetorical. I'm not asking you the question,
nor am I asking you to consider doing something foolish.
(13:41):
But what if would it mean if ten choirs with
robes on yes, singing yes, confronted ice yes, what are
you gonna do?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Lock up?
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Everybody praising him and saying, I'm standing with the immigrant,
I'm standing by the lonely, I'm standing by the disrespect
that I'm standing by people who want to feed their
families and are being deported from the United States, the
last bastion of so called freedom on earth. What would
that mean if we transformed how we see the worship
(14:19):
experience into the kind of social justice activism that I
believe Labraton is talking about, and certainly your wife is
demanding and insisting that we stay at the table and participated.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
That's why this read is open really to all of us.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
And I think if I were to do anything was
it would encourage people who are not you know, pastors,
and this is for the late person. And then it
says to you, then, what must I do with this?
How do I act? You act with the tools that
are in your hand? In my area is the creative tools.
(14:59):
What are the how do we.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Stand up, sing up, paint up? You know right? What
are the things that we can do.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
To speak to the justice or the injustices in our world? Yes,
there are people that are out there, but I think
the church, and for me specifically, our worship.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
And I worship leaders and.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Our song leaders have to extend what they do past
that eleven o'clock hour. And like you said, to robe
up and then go to a place where the immigrants
are and sing there.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
That's different.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
And again Reverend Meeks taught me that we were in
front of crack houses singing the praises of God because
there was power in it. You know, we know the
script of that God inhabits the praises of his people. Well,
we don't do the work. It is God that does
the work. So it's not the singing that does the work.
It is God that work does the work. Repertory talks
(15:57):
about something in a book called the Foolishness of God
that he chooses foolish things like singing, like preaching like protests,
so to speak, to show himself mighty, at to show
himself strong. And I think to your point, and you
have that. That image is now stuck in my head
of choirs robed up and confronting Ice. But it's a
(16:18):
new concept. Who wants to do that? Where is that happening?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
You know? Uh?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
But again, these are times now line in the sand
where a book like this and I love how.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Oh oh, Barbara.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Sorry forgive me I'm looking at Robert called this an
a cyclical letter, that it is designed to wake people up.
It is a letter that says, Okay, if you've been
thinking one way, think about it this way. And I
think as this book gets traction, if you will that
it will cause people to think, and more importantly, will
cause people to act. And from my perspective, if you
(17:00):
are a creative, how do you act up? You got
to act up, You gotta act up.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
You know.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I'd love to see a choir engage in that kind
of civil disability. Frankly, I would love to see them
force ICE's hand. Yes, I would love to see them
in their robes, placed in paddy wagons. I would love
to see them all in court together in their robes
in front of the judge, singing and say, now, now
(17:31):
what are you accusing us of?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Right? What are you accusing? Right?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Are you going to lock up the whole choir?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
All we did was follow.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Up the tendance of our religion exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
We got We gained courage doing it together. We didn't
leave Martin Luther King in the in the Birmingham jail
by himself, or or leave Barber that the calls the
capital by himself, or or leave you know Jesse standing
in line at the.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
A and p by himself.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
We're talking about so many choirs being arrested in their
full garments, and when they get to the judge magistrate,
they break out in sells all. I mean, what's he
going to do? Lock everybody up?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
It's not going to.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
It's not going to happen. And so I can see
some real value in the transformation of the ministry itself
by the engagement of you know, the ministry and the
Gospel in ways that pique the attention and draw the
attention of the state itself. Rome is falling. Something is
(18:50):
wrong in Rome, and there's this little movement that's taking
place around the seat of Galilee that is becoming so powered,
powerful that we want its leaders arrested. Give me John
the Baptist, Give me Jesus of Nazareth. Whatever it is,
this love thing they're talking about, this mercy thing you're
(19:12):
talking about. If all of these things are so problematic
for Rome, then Reverend what.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
I hate to use that.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
What the hell is rom If love is such a
problem around the Sea of Galilee, If hope is such
a problem, if redemption, if staying at the table is
such a problem, then what the hell is Roomed? What
are they about? And I think in final analysis, we're
going to have to question and shake our faiths a
(19:41):
little bit, because I believe that Christianity, Reverend one, is
really part of living. It's having the courage to live
on a dangerous road. Thanks and that love that we
say for God is too private. And that's what this
book is. And you say, who is saying to acquire?
I mean this is new news. I don't know until
(20:03):
I went to Salem. I don't know if many groups
in choirs and pastor and said no, no, no, no, no no,
don't put the deacons up front, don't he We led
those marchins as you know downtown about education and children,
about lack of education and opportunity, and the drawing up he.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Put us forward. It changed my mind. It was transformative,
and I think perhaps there was a new charge to
worship leaders and those of us who say we love God.
How do we make that public? Where we're standing there,
and you said, if you will. The images of people
inquiry world, singing about the reckless love of God, the
(20:46):
limitless love of God, and begging the question, what have
we done singing about love and promoting this?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
So yet it's quite new.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I am. I am particularly impressed with the with the
social justice angle of the ministry because it really really
redefines the Gospel.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
It does when I was incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
When I was in prison, I just did not fully appreciate,
as a middle class Christian growing up in Chicago, how
many of the stories in the Bible are about men
and women who experienced some form of incarceration. Yes, I
mean I read the Bible in prison, from Genesis to Revelation,
and it was a completely different book, correct than the
(21:32):
one I had read going to church every Sunday morning,
middle class Bible. I cannot read it again the same.
I just can't. I just can't. It's impossible when you've
gone through life and you read the Bible. My grandmama
and other grandmothers, when they sing some of the Negro spirituals,
(21:52):
it's very different than a thirteen year old child singing
a Negro spiritual. It's a lived experience. And you can
tell when Albertina Walker's, you can tell when Aretha sings
it yes, and you can tell the difference when our
favorite cultural entertainer tries to sing it yes, he or she.
(22:13):
Just some of them struggle with trying to get there
because that is the very nature of the space. I'm
Jesse Jackson Junior listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
When we come forward on kbla' Talk fifteen to eighty,
Doctor Walter Owens, classically trained but also trained in the
tradition of gospel music and the Black Church. Dr Owens,
(22:35):
welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Thank you so great being here.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Barbara Jean, who is listening to us on social media, commented,
I absolutely loved the idea of choirs standing in the
tradition of Jesus of Nazareth and Martin Luther King Jr.
Against ice and singing, disarming them, disarming the culture, and
(23:09):
standing tall to demonstrate their faith. They are staying at
the American table. They are not retreating to the walls
of the church. They are in their faith, in their
choir robes, saying this is my faith. That the exercise
of our faith in this moment. We understand it to
(23:31):
be a dangerous road. Yes, but there's also strength in numbers.
It's strength in being together in that process, Doctor Owens,
help our listeners understand the strength of the altoes and
the and the harmonies that come together in song that
(23:53):
can also present itself in the streets.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Well, you just mentioned the whole beauty of coming together
to sing. Why do that? Uh? It is voices, different voices.
How about this coming together?
Speaker 3 (24:10):
It is soprano, the alto, the tenor, the bass, the contralto,
if you will, any other voice classifications. Coming together. One
calls one song, doing it all together. There's so many,
so many things to teach from that. And we do
this naturally, but we do this privately. We sing around,
(24:34):
we sing on the concert stage, and we sing and
our worship serves our beautiful churches. But very seldom uh,
and I would be interested to know if somebody could,
could you know, refute this. How often do choirs go
out and live out uh, their private worship, their their song?
(24:55):
When do you see that happen or where do you
see that happening?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
It could be happening. Uh.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I'm just saying this, this book and this conversation UH
starts or should awaken something in us. This whole dangerous
active worship, the dangerous act of worship. The danger I mean,
those words don't even go together. That's why I was
so drawing. It's odd, the dangerous act of worship. The
eyes of what when we wake up and when we
(25:23):
sing up and when we stand up. Uh, there's another
force that's with us, if you know what I mean.
It's not just the voices that does that. So the
descripture that says the uh, the letter killeth, but the
spirit make it alive. We can sing notes on a page,
and we can do. But it is a spirit of God.
And those of us who understand what you know, singing
(25:45):
worship really is. It is a spirit and truth. They
that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Ask you, let me ask you this question about spirit
and truth? Do we nullify one of our listeners? In fact,
our producer raises the question, do we nullify the word
of God or the ministry of the Revolutionary Christ?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yes, when we.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Keep it to ourselves in holy huddles.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Loved with And the resounding answer is yes we do.
We nullify it when we just keep it probably, which
is why again I'm so excited about talking about this,
and UH, to be in all honesty, I was a
little nervous about coming on because I'm not the speaker.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
You know, my wife is the eloquence.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Now you're comfortable, you're about to sing a song for
us too. I'm not going to out here.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Speaker.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
But but I said to myself, I've not been called
to this space for nothing. That that the years that
I've spent doing what I do, and having read this
book and read Thangkious Active Worship and now reading if
you will write in my home staying at the table
and this call to action. UH, this is a perfect
(27:04):
opportunity to bring this to the table to say to
my fellow UH educators, music educators and worship leaders and
music pastors, we must stand along our pastors or the church,
so our pastors are out there, they're speaking, and guess
what when they go out there, there's a small group.
You know how it works, just in our church, the
(27:25):
evangelism group or the social action group that goes with them.
Very seldom do our singers go we very seldom do
do this army of singers, our praise teams go on
the front line. But I would submit to you that
it's a it's a biblical practice as as old as
(27:46):
the ages. To send you the first to put them
in and God is an example, or it's a it's
a model that God gave to us. But it's not
until and my wife mentions this whole idea of but
spiritual practices, and that must be a way in which
we understand the limits of a God and stay at
the table. Most of my colleagues do not know biblical
(28:09):
history to know that the the tribe of Judah was
set out first. They don't know that when we sing
of the love of God, the love of God was what.
It's what the the people of God used to give
(28:31):
them courage to fight, uh courage to to to live
day by day. Our ancestors, I think it's powerful, and
I guess to to your listener's point, It would be
wonderful if this is the start of thinking about doing
that our singers, our pastors, encouraging UH, inviting our our singers,
(28:54):
our choirs UH to be on the front line and
doing what and making worship public Now.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Ma Leverton's book The Dangerous Act of Worship, Living God's
Call to Justice, one of his quotes the heart of
the battle over worship is this. Our worship practices are
separated all to justice and worse, foster the self indulgent
tendencies of our culture rather than nurturing the self sacrificing
(29:23):
life of the Kingdom of God. We are asleep. Nothing
is more important than for us to wake up and
practice the dangerous act of worship living God's Call to Justice.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Wow. Powerful, nothing more powerful.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
I'm telling you, I reading this book has only been
probably a few a few months, maybe six to eight
months that I my life and my ministry intersected with
this book, and now staying at the table is just
like okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
I'm certainly hoping in this the ministers that are listening
that a choir directors and members of choirs who are
listening that there is another step that you can take correct.
Beyond choir rehearsal, Yes, beyond Sunday worship. There is something
out here for you to do in the streets. Yes,
and you might be a little afraid of it, but
(30:19):
we can do it together in our robes, and we
can teach this system something about the Gospels. I'm Jesse
Jackson Junior. When we come forward, this is KBLA Talk
fifteen eighty. When we come forward, Doctor Owens will have
a question or two more for him, but he will
also share with us our final word of hope. I'm
Jesse Jackson, Jesse Jackson Junior Show. My very special guest
(30:40):
in this hour has been doctor Walter Owens. He is
the spouse or the spice our Reverend Theresa Horde Owens,
who is normally with us on this series The Faith
Not to Fall. I'm so grateful that doctor Owens is
with us today. Doctor Owens, welcome forward to the Jesse
Jackson Show.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Thanks for having me. So.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I had this vision during the break, Mama, Mama, I
got some great news. What is it, Mama, what is it? Son?
I saw the entire choir on the news and they
were holding their bibles. Well that is some good news. Son.
(31:27):
What's the bad news, Mama. I don't think they're going
to be in church this Sunday because they got arrested
by ice and they made a major statement that something
is taking place in this country that's outside the grace
of God.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, talk to me about.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
You mentioned earlier and you were I thought as we
were closing the last segment that the weapons of our
warfare are not carn but they're mighty through Gods. That
the pulling down a stronghold. I think we don't understand
the power that we have, which is why we stay
in our choir stance and stay safely, you know, behind
(32:08):
our choir robes, if you will, Because we don't understand
the power of the Gospel. We don't understand the power
of the reckless love of God, that the reckless love
of God causes us to live out the Gospel. The
whole point, Mark labratis but living out our call to
a justice through our worship, through our voice. It is powerful.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
It is not powerful because of us. It is powerful
because of God. He has given us. He has given
his church a weapon that cannot be silence, that cannot
be taken away.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
From us.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I don't care if they arrest us or whatever the
consequence is. It cannot be taken away from us. And
I think back to the civil rights movement and other
movements we're singing was so important and we're so prominent,
and it does have power, and I think we have
to reclaim this power. And maybe just through this conversation
and through the book and through other ways. Uh, it's
(33:09):
it's been awakened in people, and I think it's I
think it's that time. It's time for us to be
to awake o sleeper. As as Mark was.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Saying, you know, you know, I think in this moment
I'm singing this song to myself, we are not ashamed, yes,
of Jesus Christ. And then I think about, obviously the
antithesis of that, the opposite of that is if you
are not exercising the gospel in real time for your neighbor,
(33:37):
you are ashamed of it.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I mean this is a dangerous book. I mean it
is dangerous stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yes, because we got to go public.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yes, yes, I think that we sing it with such conviction, Yes,
from the congregation and even to the congregation from the
choir stand. But When you take that gospel and you
confront in justice with it, the same song takes on.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
A different means, different meaning exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Doctor Orwens. We only have a few moments left in
our program, about about five minutes. Can you help offer
us our country, our nation a word of hope?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Well, this little light of mind.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
You just made me think about it as you were
talking about songs we've sung, this little light of mind.
We have to take what we have. God has always
asked the question what is in your hand? When he
was asking what can I do and what impact can
I make? He always asks what is in your hand?
What do you have? So I come to the table saying, okay,
I'm an educator, I'm a coach, I'm an arts administrator.
(34:46):
With that in my hand, how can I use that
to live out the call of justice or to live
out what I say I believe about God in the world.
How do I live out the limitless of a God
in the world. I think we have to rethink, as
my wife has encouraged us to do. We think we imagine,
(35:06):
as Walter Brugemont asked us to think about the prophetic
imagination of God. Get inside God's mind, and reimagine what
we can do to really make a difference. And I'm
so glad that staying at the table that's out there.
It's a new uh, it's a new book, but it's
an old idea, so to speak. UH, and Reb Terry
(35:27):
hoard Owns has brought it to the four And I,
as her husband, or even just as a late person
clergy uh creative, have to do my part. I kind
of just see this something that others have to do.
I have to see this something that I must do.
We must stand up, sing up, speak up, uh and
live out God's call to justice and stay at the table.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
I'm particularly proud and grateful Doctor Owens that you have
been on our program today. But I'm equally as grateful
that every week you share your wife with us with insight,
her wisdom, her care, her concern, her love of neighbor.
Someone who lives their life and gods their life with
clear intention. She pays attention to intention. She is the
(36:18):
leader of a multicultural and multi racial denomination. Absolutely she
pays attention to the sensitivities of different cultures, of different
walks of life. For some of us, pastoring and preaching
is y'all come, here's the word, here's our lived experience,
(36:45):
and we shout, holla and cry about it.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
But imagine looking out upon blacks and whites and Latinos
and Native Americans, and the rich and the poor, and
the middle class and working class people having to give
a sermon every Sunday, Yes, read the newspaper, watch the news,
(37:14):
knowing that everybody in the congregation ain't going to agree
with your interpretation of the Bible. And then at the
end of the sermon, still hold everybody on the edge
of their seats to the word, because you've found the language,
the words, the spirit, energy, the sense of spirituality necessary
(37:38):
to keep a rainbow coalition together. Yes, a rainbow coalition
doesn't just show up at voter time. Sometimes we have
to unite people by other things, not by their color,
but by their pain. Yes, we unite people also in
their suffering. We unite people in their commonality. And I
(38:00):
don't know anyone who does that better than your wife,
Nerving Theresa hord Owen's right here on the Jesse Jackson
Junior Show, Doctor Owes, I got about thirty seconds. I'm
going to give it to you. A final thought a
final word.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
May I say to.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Our colleagues, my colleagues across whatever disciplines are you participate in,
get this book. Let it resonate with you, let it
sit with it and find out what you can do.
Want to stay at the table at the Lowes's table.
It's not our table, it's his table, but to also
(38:35):
operate in the world on his behalf, with the.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Kids that you have in your hands.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
I'm Jesse Jackson jun You've been listening to the Jesse
Jackson Junior Show on KBLA Talk fifteen to eighty until tomorrow.
I'm Jesse Jackson Junior. Welcome to the second Wild Program.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Today.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
We are going to be discussing in this hour the
dangerous act of worship. Now, if there ever was a
oxymorn the idea that worship can be dangerous, it's something
we will discuss today with doctor Walter Owens, who serves
as doctor Charlie Dates and the thirteen thousand member of
(00:24):
the Congregation of the Salem Baptist Church of Chicago as
its Minister of Music and Arts, a role that includes
leadership to ten arts related ministries and more than five
hundred people. He completed his undergraduate work at Northwestern University
in music and education and graduate work at Butler University
in Indianapolis, Indiana in conducting. Yes, he is a formal conductor.
(00:49):
He's a magic faculty member at the Moody Bible Institute
and at Columbia College, where he conducts the Gospel Repertory
Ensemble and the Gospel Choir. Doctor Owen's welcome forward to
the Just Jackson Junior show.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
While it is so great to be here today.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I am so honored that you are here and you're
filling in for none than my favorite Reverend Teresa Hoard Owens,
your lovely wife, the president of the Disciples of Christ Church.
Please give her our very best.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I sure will, Doctor Owens.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
This book has obviously piqued your attention as something that
I think we're going to have to really really discuss today,
this book The Dangerous Act of Worship. Why is worship
so dangerous?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Well, let me first say give kudos to my wife
and who is currently leading the General Assembly of the
Christian Church Disciples of Crisis while she's not here today,
and she asked me to sit in and to talk
about her book, a new book, this thing at the
Table of being mature, which we say we are.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
And as I thought about what I.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Can reflect upon, I thought about a book that I
have just recently become aware of and it's really been
transformative to me, called The Dangerous Act of Worship. I
was reading the book staying at the table, and it
was encouraging every believer or whoever would read the book
(02:24):
to start with the limitless love of God. Everything we do,
everything we who we are just about what we believe
about God. And I was trying to figure out so
as a as a worship leader at Arts Administration, Arts
Administrator educator, How do I read that book and what
(02:44):
does that mean to me?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
And I was I was provoked.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I was convicted that so many of us who lead
creative teams in the church. And I'm a churchman south
side of Chicagoingerwood, born there, raised there, uh, and now
have served many churches across many denominations. Our worship is
so private, and it's it's what we sing, is things
(03:15):
that we do, It's often not how we act. And
so as I read this book, uh uh, everything led
to if I believe this about God, that I must
do this. We often say, if if I believe this
about God, that I must sing this, I must. You know,
it's so private, is everything we do in our liturgy
and everything that we come together to do on Sunday morning.
(03:41):
But what what happens after we leave Sunday morning worship.
How does that worship find this way in the streets
and in our lives? How does our worship, our private worship,
become our public witness? And so reading the book just
provoked me and and I tried to read it through.
(04:03):
Read it through the lens of a late person, read
it through the lens of a clergy, A music pastor
and read it quite frankly as the life partner of
the author, and I was moved in so many ways
about so many things. And again, this book came up
about the dangerous act of worship, and so little has
talked about how we live out our love for God
(04:27):
and our worship for God. It never or often never
makes its way into the streets, into our public witnesses.
So this book just just really made me think about
so many things. And Mike Marx labratin just just the
premise of the book was that, uh, the dangerous act
(04:49):
of worship is really waking up to everything that the
Word of God tells us to do and be, and
not just sing it.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So, you know, I appreciate that was I read part
of what Mark Laverton wrote in The Dangerous Act of Worship,
living God's Call to Justice, and in it he says, Jesus,
if anything was and is awake, that's the not for
those who encounter him in the Gospels. He came to
make a world of those who are awake, awake to God,
to each other and to the world. Waking up is
(05:21):
the dangerous act of worship. It's dangerous because worship is
meant to produce lives fully attentive to the reality as
God sees it, and that's more than most of us
want to deal with. I'm Jay Jackson Junior. You're listening
to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. In this hour on
KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. Our very special guest is none
(05:42):
other than doctor Owen's. When we come forward and we're
talking about the book The Dangerous Act of Worship, Living
God's Call to Justice, and just before the break, I said, Jesus,
if anything was and is awake, that's the shock for
those who encounter him in the Gospels. He came to
(06:02):
make a world of those who are awake, awake to God,
awake to each other, awake to the world. Waking up
is the dangerous act of worship. It's dangerous because worship
is meant to produce lives fully attentive the reality of
God as God sees it, and that's more than most
of us want to deal with. Now, I'd like to say,
(06:27):
Doctor Owens, that this is one of those times where
I come up with one of my own little quotes.
We don't need to understand, we need to innerstand and overstand,
understand nothing. We understand and overstand everything because we in it.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yes, help us.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Right here make sense of this idea that we are
supposed to be wide awake.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Well, let me read the passage that he talks about
or takes his phrase from, about waking up and it's
divers Ephesians at think five fourteen. It's his wake up sleeper,
rise on the dead, and Christ will shine on you.
And this is a great message of really transformation, and
(07:19):
it suggests that believers can move from a state of
spiritual darkness to one being illuminated if you will, by
Christ's presence or even the Word of God. And again,
as I read Staying at the Table, I try to
I tried to read it again through those lens. I'm
her husband, I'm a church leader, I'm a late person.
What does it mean for me? One of the things
(07:41):
that I do most of the time and in my
work is leading people in worship. If I'm leading people
and get this, doctor Jackson. A pastor takes the time
that he takes in worship forty minutes to an hour
(08:02):
at all depends what church are going to. He lends,
gives way for the music to have at least thirty
minutes in front of the people in the congregation. If
we are taking up that time in people's live, spirits
and hearts, what are we really saying. Now they're those
(08:24):
who will comfort me and say, this is all about God.
Worship shouldn't be by anything else. And you know the
conversations people have about social justice issue that doesn't belong
in the church, and why you are doing that.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So we we left churches.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
You know, me from membership at the Salem Baptist Church
with the Reverend James T. Meeks who eventually became Senator.
To James Meeks, many people took, you know, took sides
whether or not you know, you know, the discussion should
preachers be in politics? Let me tell you what he
showed me. He showed me not only should people be
(08:57):
in politics, but the church should be at the forefront
of moving, uh, moving, moving the people of God forward
and moving moving the kingdom.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
That's that's what just moving the kingdom forward.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
And he would often as you know, he dried up
the liquor stores in the area. He come back to
the political dynasties and the system there.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
He he took us to crack houses and what he
would do, and this is where I hang my head.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
He would have the singers go first.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
He would have us. Now you have to understand, I
came up background before I came to Salek. My work
was in the choir stand. It was on the Poopit
is of the mic. It never made its way out
into the streets until he helped us to see that's
where it belongs. There's a scripture that talks about sending
you the first, now those of us, and you have
(09:57):
to understand some of the artist members are from church.
Is where sending you to first means praise? You know,
we praised first.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, But in context that Judah was a.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Tribe of singers that they sent before the battle.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
There was something powerful that God put in music.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And if you will, in worship that does what we
cannot do because we fight not against blessing blood. But
it's spiritual. And so when you bring that element to
the table, Uh, it's a it's a two ed sword,
so to speak.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
And Ribbondicks taught me, or showed me that your work
begins when you lead worship service. And so what staying
at the table to me suggests to me that if
I start with the limitless love of God, UH, and
it causes me to worship. Then again, the book Dangerous
(10:53):
Acting Worship says, then you must do something, you must act.
It's the same thing that UH repent Terry is saying. Book,
don't just be silent. If you start with the limits
of love of God. There's so many roads you cannot
go down and places you must start from. So I was,
I was provoked, moved, transformed. When Mark Labratin says this
(11:17):
is the dangerous act of worship, and he gives several
examples of.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Of UH across the world.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
One of the people who have stepped forward and allowed
the gospel and allowed their worship to be more than
just private.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
One of the things, one of the things that I
admire so much about about your wife, the General President
and Minister of the Disciples of Christ, is this she
has one foot in the pulpit, yes, and one foot
in the struggle for social.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Justice in this nation. Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
One of the reasons Reverend meets his ministry is so
profound that he had one foot in the pulpit, but
he had another foot in the state legislature. Yes, to
get liquor stores, yes, and drunk folk by drying out
the community from being around the church while folk coming
and going right, and the lack of sobriety in the neighborhood.
(12:15):
And we as a people need to stop calling liquor
store after liquor store, half a dozen of them on
the same block as economic development. That ain't no economic development.
And we got so used to seeing it that way
that Reverend Meeks said, I'm standing up to that. One
of the things that I admire about Reverend doctor Todd
(12:36):
Yerie on Wednesdays, Wealthy Wednesdays on this program. He has
one foot in the pullpit, but he's a lawyer. He's
also got one foot in criminal trials and one foot
in civil trials, and he's arguing before judges and juries
every single day, but preaching on Sunday, yes, And I
mean he sees something in those churches and in those
(12:59):
courtrooms and strikes a balance in his life that is woke.
That requires a different kind of activists. I think about
Reverend Attorney William Barber, who's both a lawyer and both
a minister and yet a champion for the poor.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I think about Martin Luther King Junior, not just a
seminarian and a PhD. But who was challenging the law.
And in this moment, when I think about, you know,
directing or conducting a choir, what would it mean? And
I guess this is rhetorical. I'm not asking you the question,
nor am I asking you to consider doing something foolish.
(13:41):
But what if would it mean if ten choirs with
robes on yes, singing yes, confronted ice yes, what are
you gonna do?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Lock up?
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Everybody praising him and saying, I'm standing with the immigrant,
I'm standing by the lonely, I'm standing by the disrespect
that I'm standing by people who want to feed their
families and are being deported from the United States, the
last bastion of so called freedom on earth. What would
that mean if we transformed how we see the worship
(14:19):
experience into the kind of social justice activism that I
believe Labraton is talking about, and certainly your wife is
demanding and insisting that we stay at the table and participated.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
That's why this read is open really to all of us.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
And I think if I were to do anything was
it would encourage people who are not you know, pastors,
and this is for the late person. And then it
says to you, then, what must I do with this?
How do I act? You act with the tools that
are in your hand? In my area is the creative tools.
(14:59):
What are the how do we.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Stand up, sing up, paint up? You know right? What
are the things that we can do.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
To speak to the justice or the injustices in our world? Yes,
there are people that are out there, but I think
the church, and for me specifically, our worship.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
And I worship leaders and.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Our song leaders have to extend what they do past
that eleven o'clock hour. And like you said, to robe
up and then go to a place where the immigrants
are and sing there.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
That's different.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
And again Reverend Meeks taught me that we were in
front of crack houses singing the praises of God because
there was power in it. You know, we know the
script of that God inhabits the praises of his people. Well,
we don't do the work. It is God that does
the work. So it's not the singing that does the work.
It is God that work does the work. Repertory talks
(15:57):
about something in a book called the Foolishness of God
that he chooses foolish things like singing, like preaching like protests,
so to speak, to show himself mighty, at to show
himself strong. And I think to your point, and you
have that. That image is now stuck in my head
of choirs robed up and confronting Ice. But it's a
(16:18):
new concept. Who wants to do that? Where is that happening?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
You know? Uh?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
But again, these are times now line in the sand
where a book like this and I love how.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Oh oh, Barbara.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Sorry forgive me I'm looking at Robert called this an
a cyclical letter, that it is designed to wake people up.
It is a letter that says, Okay, if you've been
thinking one way, think about it this way. And I
think as this book gets traction, if you will that
it will cause people to think, and more importantly, will
cause people to act. And from my perspective, if you
(17:00):
are a creative, how do you act up? You got
to act up, You gotta act up.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
You know.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I'd love to see a choir engage in that kind
of civil disability. Frankly, I would love to see them
force ICE's hand. Yes, I would love to see them
in their robes, placed in paddy wagons. I would love
to see them all in court together in their robes
in front of the judge, singing and say, now, now
(17:31):
what are you accusing us of?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Right? What are you accusing? Right?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Are you going to lock up the whole choir?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
All we did was follow.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Up the tendance of our religion exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
We got We gained courage doing it together. We didn't
leave Martin Luther King in the in the Birmingham jail
by himself, or or leave Barber that the calls the
capital by himself, or or leave you know Jesse standing
in line at the.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
A and p by himself.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
We're talking about so many choirs being arrested in their
full garments, and when they get to the judge magistrate,
they break out in sells all. I mean, what's he
going to do? Lock everybody up?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
It's not going to.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
It's not going to happen. And so I can see
some real value in the transformation of the ministry itself
by the engagement of you know, the ministry and the
Gospel in ways that pique the attention and draw the
attention of the state itself. Rome is falling. Something is
(18:50):
wrong in Rome, and there's this little movement that's taking
place around the seat of Galilee that is becoming so powered,
powerful that we want its leaders arrested. Give me John
the Baptist, Give me Jesus of Nazareth. Whatever it is,
this love thing they're talking about, this mercy thing you're
(19:12):
talking about. If all of these things are so problematic
for Rome, then Reverend what.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
I hate to use that.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
What the hell is rom If love is such a
problem around the Sea of Galilee, If hope is such
a problem, if redemption, if staying at the table is
such a problem, then what the hell is Roomed? What
are they about? And I think in final analysis, we're
going to have to question and shake our faiths a
(19:41):
little bit, because I believe that Christianity, Reverend one, is
really part of living. It's having the courage to live
on a dangerous road. Thanks and that love that we
say for God is too private. And that's what this
book is. And you say, who is saying to acquire?
I mean this is new news. I don't know until
(20:03):
I went to Salem. I don't know if many groups
in choirs and pastor and said no, no, no, no, no no,
don't put the deacons up front, don't he We led
those marchins as you know downtown about education and children,
about lack of education and opportunity, and the drawing up he.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Put us forward. It changed my mind. It was transformative,
and I think perhaps there was a new charge to
worship leaders and those of us who say we love God.
How do we make that public? Where we're standing there,
and you said, if you will. The images of people
inquiry world, singing about the reckless love of God, the
(20:46):
limitless love of God, and begging the question, what have
we done singing about love and promoting this?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
So yet it's quite new.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I am. I am particularly impressed with the with the
social justice angle of the ministry because it really really
redefines the Gospel.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
It does when I was incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
When I was in prison, I just did not fully appreciate,
as a middle class Christian growing up in Chicago, how
many of the stories in the Bible are about men
and women who experienced some form of incarceration. Yes, I
mean I read the Bible in prison, from Genesis to Revelation,
and it was a completely different book, correct than the
(21:32):
one I had read going to church every Sunday morning,
middle class Bible. I cannot read it again the same.
I just can't. I just can't. It's impossible when you've
gone through life and you read the Bible. My grandmama
and other grandmothers, when they sing some of the Negro spirituals,
(21:52):
it's very different than a thirteen year old child singing
a Negro spiritual. It's a lived experience. And you can
tell when Albertina Walker's, you can tell when Aretha sings
it yes, and you can tell the difference when our
favorite cultural entertainer tries to sing it yes, he or she.
(22:13):
Just some of them struggle with trying to get there
because that is the very nature of the space. I'm
Jesse Jackson Junior listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
When we come forward on kbla' Talk fifteen to eighty,
Doctor Walter Owens, classically trained but also trained in the
tradition of gospel music and the Black Church. Dr Owens,
(22:35):
welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Thank you so great being here.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Barbara Jean, who is listening to us on social media, commented,
I absolutely loved the idea of choirs standing in the
tradition of Jesus of Nazareth and Martin Luther King Jr.
Against ice and singing, disarming them, disarming the culture, and
(23:09):
standing tall to demonstrate their faith. They are staying at
the American table. They are not retreating to the walls
of the church. They are in their faith, in their
choir robes, saying this is my faith. That the exercise
of our faith in this moment. We understand it to
(23:31):
be a dangerous road. Yes, but there's also strength in numbers.
It's strength in being together in that process, Doctor Owens,
help our listeners understand the strength of the altoes and
the and the harmonies that come together in song that
(23:53):
can also present itself in the streets.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Well, you just mentioned the whole beauty of coming together
to sing. Why do that? Uh? It is voices, different voices.
How about this coming together?
Speaker 3 (24:10):
It is soprano, the alto, the tenor, the bass, the contralto,
if you will, any other voice classifications. Coming together. One
calls one song, doing it all together. There's so many,
so many things to teach from that. And we do
this naturally, but we do this privately. We sing around,
(24:34):
we sing on the concert stage, and we sing and
our worship serves our beautiful churches. But very seldom uh,
and I would be interested to know if somebody could,
could you know, refute this. How often do choirs go
out and live out uh, their private worship, their their song?
(24:55):
When do you see that happen or where do you
see that happening?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
It could be happening. Uh.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I'm just saying this, this book and this conversation UH
starts or should awaken something in us. This whole dangerous
active worship, the dangerous act of worship. The danger I mean,
those words don't even go together. That's why I was
so drawing. It's odd, the dangerous act of worship. The
eyes of what when we wake up and when we
(25:23):
sing up and when we stand up. Uh, there's another
force that's with us, if you know what I mean.
It's not just the voices that does that. So the
descripture that says the uh, the letter killeth, but the
spirit make it alive. We can sing notes on a page,
and we can do. But it is a spirit of God.
And those of us who understand what you know, singing
(25:45):
worship really is. It is a spirit and truth. They
that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Ask you, let me ask you this question about spirit
and truth? Do we nullify one of our listeners? In fact,
our producer raises the question, do we nullify the word
of God or the ministry of the Revolutionary Christ?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yes, when we.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Keep it to ourselves in holy huddles.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Loved with And the resounding answer is yes we do.
We nullify it when we just keep it probably, which
is why again I'm so excited about talking about this,
and UH, to be in all honesty, I was a
little nervous about coming on because I'm not the speaker.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
You know, my wife is the eloquence.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Now you're comfortable, you're about to sing a song for
us too. I'm not going to out here.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Speaker.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
But but I said to myself, I've not been called
to this space for nothing. That that the years that
I've spent doing what I do, and having read this
book and read Thangkious Active Worship and now reading if
you will write in my home staying at the table
and this call to action. UH, this is a perfect
(27:04):
opportunity to bring this to the table to say to
my fellow UH educators, music educators and worship leaders and
music pastors, we must stand along our pastors or the church,
so our pastors are out there, they're speaking, and guess
what when they go out there, there's a small group.
You know how it works, just in our church, the
(27:25):
evangelism group or the social action group that goes with them.
Very seldom do our singers go we very seldom do
do this army of singers, our praise teams go on
the front line. But I would submit to you that
it's a it's a biblical practice as as old as
(27:46):
the ages. To send you the first to put them
in and God is an example, or it's a it's
a model that God gave to us. But it's not
until and my wife mentions this whole idea of but
spiritual practices, and that must be a way in which
we understand the limits of a God and stay at
the table. Most of my colleagues do not know biblical
(28:09):
history to know that the the tribe of Judah was
set out first. They don't know that when we sing
of the love of God, the love of God was what.
It's what the the people of God used to give
(28:31):
them courage to fight, uh courage to to to live
day by day. Our ancestors, I think it's powerful, and
I guess to to your listener's point, It would be
wonderful if this is the start of thinking about doing
that our singers, our pastors, encouraging UH, inviting our our singers,
(28:54):
our choirs UH to be on the front line and
doing what and making worship public Now.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Ma Leverton's book The Dangerous Act of Worship, Living God's
Call to Justice, one of his quotes the heart of
the battle over worship is this. Our worship practices are
separated all to justice and worse, foster the self indulgent
tendencies of our culture rather than nurturing the self sacrificing
(29:23):
life of the Kingdom of God. We are asleep. Nothing
is more important than for us to wake up and
practice the dangerous act of worship living God's Call to Justice.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Wow. Powerful, nothing more powerful.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
I'm telling you, I reading this book has only been
probably a few a few months, maybe six to eight
months that I my life and my ministry intersected with
this book, and now staying at the table is just
like okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
I'm certainly hoping in this the ministers that are listening
that a choir directors and members of choirs who are
listening that there is another step that you can take correct.
Beyond choir rehearsal, Yes, beyond Sunday worship. There is something
out here for you to do in the streets. Yes,
and you might be a little afraid of it, but
(30:19):
we can do it together in our robes, and we
can teach this system something about the Gospels. I'm Jesse
Jackson Junior. When we come forward, this is KBLA Talk
fifteen eighty. When we come forward, Doctor Owens will have
a question or two more for him, but he will
also share with us our final word of hope. I'm
Jesse Jackson, Jesse Jackson Junior Show. My very special guest
(30:40):
in this hour has been doctor Walter Owens. He is
the spouse or the spice our Reverend Theresa Horde Owens,
who is normally with us on this series The Faith
Not to Fall. I'm so grateful that doctor Owens is
with us today. Doctor Owens, welcome forward to the Jesse
Jackson Show.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Thanks for having me. So.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I had this vision during the break, Mama, Mama, I
got some great news. What is it, Mama, what is it? Son?
I saw the entire choir on the news and they
were holding their bibles. Well that is some good news. Son.
(31:27):
What's the bad news, Mama. I don't think they're going
to be in church this Sunday because they got arrested
by ice and they made a major statement that something
is taking place in this country that's outside the grace
of God.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, talk to me about.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
You mentioned earlier and you were I thought as we
were closing the last segment that the weapons of our
warfare are not carn but they're mighty through Gods. That
the pulling down a stronghold. I think we don't understand
the power that we have, which is why we stay
in our choir stance and stay safely, you know, behind
(32:08):
our choir robes, if you will, Because we don't understand
the power of the Gospel. We don't understand the power
of the reckless love of God, that the reckless love
of God causes us to live out the Gospel. The
whole point, Mark labratis but living out our call to
a justice through our worship, through our voice. It is powerful.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
It is not powerful because of us. It is powerful
because of God. He has given us. He has given
his church a weapon that cannot be silence, that cannot
be taken away.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
From us.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I don't care if they arrest us or whatever the
consequence is. It cannot be taken away from us. And
I think back to the civil rights movement and other
movements we're singing was so important and we're so prominent,
and it does have power, and I think we have
to reclaim this power. And maybe just through this conversation
and through the book and through other ways. Uh, it's
(33:09):
it's been awakened in people, and I think it's I
think it's that time. It's time for us to be
to awake o sleeper. As as Mark was.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Saying, you know, you know, I think in this moment
I'm singing this song to myself, we are not ashamed, yes,
of Jesus Christ. And then I think about, obviously the
antithesis of that, the opposite of that is if you
are not exercising the gospel in real time for your neighbor,
(33:37):
you are ashamed of it.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I mean this is a dangerous book. I mean it
is dangerous stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yes, because we got to go public.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yes, yes, I think that we sing it with such conviction, Yes,
from the congregation and even to the congregation from the
choir stand. But When you take that gospel and you
confront in justice with it, the same song takes on.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
A different means, different meaning exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Doctor Orwens. We only have a few moments left in
our program, about about five minutes. Can you help offer
us our country, our nation a word of hope?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Well, this little light of mind.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
You just made me think about it as you were
talking about songs we've sung, this little light of mind.
We have to take what we have. God has always
asked the question what is in your hand? When he
was asking what can I do and what impact can
I make? He always asks what is in your hand?
What do you have? So I come to the table saying, okay,
I'm an educator, I'm a coach, I'm an arts administrator.
(34:46):
With that in my hand, how can I use that
to live out the call of justice or to live
out what I say I believe about God in the world.
How do I live out the limitless of a God
in the world. I think we have to rethink, as
my wife has encouraged us to do. We think we imagine,
(35:06):
as Walter Brugemont asked us to think about the prophetic
imagination of God. Get inside God's mind, and reimagine what
we can do to really make a difference. And I'm
so glad that staying at the table that's out there.
It's a new uh, it's a new book, but it's
an old idea, so to speak. UH, and Reb Terry
(35:27):
hoard Owns has brought it to the four And I,
as her husband, or even just as a late person
clergy uh creative, have to do my part. I kind
of just see this something that others have to do.
I have to see this something that I must do.
We must stand up, sing up, speak up, uh and
live out God's call to justice and stay at the table.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
I'm particularly proud and grateful Doctor Owens that you have
been on our program today. But I'm equally as grateful
that every week you share your wife with us with insight,
her wisdom, her care, her concern, her love of neighbor.
Someone who lives their life and gods their life with
clear intention. She pays attention to intention. She is the
(36:18):
leader of a multicultural and multi racial denomination. Absolutely she
pays attention to the sensitivities of different cultures, of different
walks of life. For some of us, pastoring and preaching
is y'all come, here's the word, here's our lived experience,
(36:45):
and we shout, holla and cry about it.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
But imagine looking out upon blacks and whites and Latinos
and Native Americans, and the rich and the poor, and
the middle class and working class people having to give
a sermon every Sunday, Yes, read the newspaper, watch the news,
(37:14):
knowing that everybody in the congregation ain't going to agree
with your interpretation of the Bible. And then at the
end of the sermon, still hold everybody on the edge
of their seats to the word, because you've found the language,
the words, the spirit, energy, the sense of spirituality necessary
(37:38):
to keep a rainbow coalition together. Yes, a rainbow coalition
doesn't just show up at voter time. Sometimes we have
to unite people by other things, not by their color,
but by their pain. Yes, we unite people also in
their suffering. We unite people in their commonality. And I
(38:00):
don't know anyone who does that better than your wife,
Nerving Theresa hord Owen's right here on the Jesse Jackson
Junior Show, Doctor Owes, I got about thirty seconds. I'm
going to give it to you. A final thought a
final word.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
May I say to.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Our colleagues, my colleagues across whatever disciplines are you participate in,
get this book. Let it resonate with you, let it
sit with it and find out what you can do.
Want to stay at the table at the Lowes's table.
It's not our table, it's his table, but to also
(38:35):
operate in the world on his behalf, with the.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Kids that you have in your hands.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
I'm Jesse Jackson jun You've been listening to the Jesse
Jackson Junior Show on KBLA Talk fifteen to eighty until tomorrow.
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