July 14, 2025 • 38 mins
“Fat Meat Fridays on The Jesse Jackson Jr Show”
Closing the week out on Fat Meat Fridays is Show producer and director, Gina A. Towns with “Reflectivity”…time for Jesse Jr to dig a little deeper into the discussions throughout the week. To take the discussion one step further, the guest host of “The Politics of Our Faith” on Wednesdays, Rev. Dr. Todd Yeary Esq., got the producer invite to return to “chew” on the power of words, and the conversations we need to have, from community to community across the nation.
Closing the week out on Fat Meat Fridays is Show producer and director, Gina A. Towns with “Reflectivity”…time for Jesse Jr to dig a little deeper into the discussions throughout the week. To take the discussion one step further, the guest host of “The Politics of Our Faith” on Wednesdays, Rev. Dr. Todd Yeary Esq., got the producer invite to return to “chew” on the power of words, and the conversations we need to have, from community to community across the nation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Jesse Jackson Junior. Welcome to the second child of our program. Today.
We are going to be discussing in this hour the
dangerous act of worship. Now there ever was a oxymorn
the idea that worship can be dangerous. It's something we
will discuss today with doctor Walter Owens, who serves as
(00:21):
doctor Charlie Dates and the thirteen thousand member of the
Congregation of the Salem Baptist Church of Chicago as its
Minister of Music and Arts, a role that includes leadership
to ten arts related ministries and more than five hundred people.
He completed his undergraduate work at Northwestern University in music
and education and graduate work at Butler University in Indianapolis,
(00:41):
Indiana in conducting. Yes, he is a formal conductor. He's
a magic faculty member at the Moody Bible Institute and
at Columbia College, where he conducts the Gospel Repertory Ensemble
and the Gospel Choir. Doctor Owen's welcome forward to the
Jesse Jackson Junior show.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
While it is so great to be here today, I.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Am so honored that you are here and you're filling
in for none of us than my favorite Reverend Teresa
Hoard Owens, your lovely wife, the president of the Disciples
of Christ Church. Please give her our very best.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I sure will, Doctor Owens, this book has obviously piqued
your attention as something that I think we're going to
have to really really discuss today.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
This book The Dangerous Act of Worship. Why is worship
so dangerous?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Well, let me first say give kudos to my wife
and who is currently leading the General Assembly of the
Christian Church Disciples of Crisis. Why she's not here today,
And she asked me to sit in and to talk
about her book, a new book, this thing at the
Table of being the church we say we are. And
(02:01):
as I thought about what I can reflect upon, I
thought about a book that I have just recently become
aware of and it's really been transformative to me, called
The Dangerous Act of Worship. I was reading the book
staying at the table, and it was encouraging every believer
or whoever would read the book to start with the
(02:25):
limitless love of God. Everything we do, everything we who
we are just about what we believe about God. And
I was trying to figure out so as a as
a worship leader at Arts Administration, Arts administrator, educator, How
do I read that book and what does that mean
to me? And I was I was provoked. I was
(02:51):
convicted that so many of us who lead creative teams
in the church, and I'm a churchman south side of Chicago,
eld would have born there, raised there, uh, and now
have served many churches across many denominations. Our worship is
so private, and it's it's what we sing and things
(03:15):
that we do. It's often not how we act. And
so as I read this book, UH, everything led to
if I believe this about God, that I must do this.
We often say, if if I believe this about God,
that I must sing this, I must. You know, it's
so private, this everything we do in our liturgy and
(03:35):
everything that we come together to do on Sunday morning.
But what what happens after we leave Sunday morning worship?
How does that worship find this way in the streets
and in our lives? How does our worship, our private
worship become our public witness? And so reading the book
(03:59):
just provoked me and and I tried to read it through,
read it through the lens of a late person, read
it through the lens of a clergy a music pastor
and read it quite frankly as the life partner of
the author, and I was moved in so many ways
about so many things. And again, this book came up
about the dangerous act of worship, and so little has
(04:22):
talked about how we live out our love for God
and our worship for God. It never or often never
makes his way into the streets into our public witnesses.
So this book just just really made me think about
so many things. And Mike Marx Labratine just just the
(04:46):
premise of the book was that, uh, the dangerous act
of worship is really waking up to everything that the
Word of God tells us to do and be, and
not just sing it.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So, you know, I appreciate that was I read part
of what Mark Laberton wrote in The Dangerous Act of Worship,
living God's Call to Justice, and in it he says, Jesus,
if anything was and is awake, that's not for those
who encounter him in the Gospels. He came to make
a world of those who are awake, awake to God,
to each other and to the world. Waking up is
(05:21):
the dangerous act of worship. It's dangerous because worship is
meant to produce lives fully attentive to the reality as
God sees it, and that's more than most of us
want to deal with. I'm Jacky Jackson Junior. You're listening
to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. In this hour on
KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. Our very special guest is none
(05:42):
other than doctor Owens. When we come forward, our doctor
Walter Owens is my very special guest, and we're talking
about the book The Dangerous Act of Worship, Living God's
Call to Justice. And just before the break, I said, Jesus,
if anything was and is awake, that's the shock for
(06:03):
those who encounter him in the Gospels. He came to
make a world of those who are awake, awake to God,
awake to each other, awake to the world. Waking up
is the dangerous act of worship. It's dangerous because worship
is meant to produce lives fully attentive the reality of
God as God sees it, and that's more than most
(06:25):
of us want to deal with. Now, I'd like to say,
doctor Owens, that this is one of those times where
I come up with one of my own little quotes.
We don't need to understand. We need to innerstand and overstand.
We understand nothing. We understand and overstand everything because we
(06:52):
in it. Yes, help us right here make sense of
this idea that we are supposed to to be wide awake.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Well, let me let me read the passage that that
he talks about or takes his phrase from, about waking
up uh, and it's divers Ephesians at the five fourteen.
It says, wake up, sleeper, rise and the dead and
Christ will shine on you. And this is a great
message of really transformation. And it suggests that believers can
(07:25):
move from a state of spiritual darkness to one being
illuminated if you will, by Christ's presence or even the
word of God. And again, as I read Staying at
the Table, I try to I tried to read it
again through those lens. I'm her husband, I'm a church leader.
I'm a late person. What does it mean for me?
One of the things that I do most of the time,
(07:47):
and my work is leading people in worship. If I'm
leading people and get this, doctor Jackson, Uh, I passed
there takes the time that he takes in worship forty
minutes to an hour at all de places what church
are going to He lends gives way for the music
(08:13):
to have at least thirty minutes in front of the
people in the congregation. If we are taking up that
time in people's live, spirits and hearts, what are we
really saying? Now they're those who will comfort me and say,
this is all about God worship shouldn't be bout anything else.
And you know the conversations people have about social justice issue,
(08:36):
it doesn't belong in the church and why you're doing that.
So we have left churches. You know, me from a
membership at the Salem Baptist Church with the Reverend James
to Meeks who eventually became senator. To James Meeks, many
people took, you know, took sides whether or not you know,
you know, the discussion should preachers being politics? Let me
(08:57):
tell you what he showed me. He showed me not
only should people be in politics, but the church should
be at the forefront of moving uh, moving moving the
people of God forward and moving moving the kingdom. That's
that's what, just moving the kingdom forward. And he would
often as you know, he dried up the liquor stores
(09:21):
in the area. He come back the political dynasties and
the system there. Uh. He he took us to crack
houses and what he would do and this is where
I hang my hat. He would have the singers go first.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
He would have us. Now you have to understand, I
came up background before I came to Salem. My work
was in the choir stred. It was on the pool
is of a mic. It never made its way out
into the streets until he helped us to see that's
where it belongs. There's a scripture that talks about sending
you the first, now those of us, and you have
(10:01):
to understand some of the artist members are from churches
where sending you to first means praise. You know, we
praised first. Yeah. But in context that Judah was a
tribe of singers that they sent before the battle. There
was something powerful that God put in music. And if
(10:21):
you will, in worship that does what we cannot do
because we fight not against flesh and blood, but it's spiritual.
And so when you bring that element to the table us,
it's a two eded sword, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And Ribbon Meeks taught me, or showed me, that your
work begins when you leave worship service, and so what
staying at the table to me suggests to me that
if I start with the limitless love of God UH,
and it causes me to worship, then again, the book
(10:56):
Dangerous Acting Worship says, then you must do something, you
must act. It's the same thing that repent Terry is
saying in her book, don't just be silent. You start
with the limits of love of God. There's so many
roads you cannot go down and places you must start from.
So I was, I was provoked, moved transformed. When Mark
(11:19):
Labratin says this is the dangerous act of worship, and
he gives several examples of of UH across the world.
One of the people who have stepped forward and allowed
the Gospel, allowed their worship to be more than just
about private.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
One of the one of the things that I admire
so much about about your wife, the General President and
Minister of the Disciples of Christ, is this she has
one foot in the pulpit, yes, and one foot in
the struggle for social justice in this nation.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
One of the reasons Reverend meets his ministry is so
profane that he had one foot in the pulpit, but
he had another foot in the state legislature, yes, to
get liquor stores, yes, and drunk folk by drying out
the community from being around the church while folk coming
and going right, and the lack of sobriety in the neighborhood.
(12:19):
And we as a people need to stop calling liquor
store after liquor store, half a dozen of them on
the same block as economic development. That ain't no economic development.
And we got so used to seeing it that way
that Reverend Meeks said, I'm standing up to that. One
of the things that I admire about Reverend doctor Todd
(12:40):
Yerie on Wednesdays, Wealthy Wednesdays on this program. He has
one foot in the pulpit, but he's a lawyer. He's
also got one foot in criminal trials and one foot
in civil trials, and he's arguing before judges and juries
every single day, but preaching on Sunday, Yes, And I
mean he sees something in those churches and in those
(13:02):
courtrooms and strikes a balance in his life that is woke.
That requires a different kind of activists. I think about
Reverend Attorney William Barber, who's both a lawyer and both
a minister and yet a champion for the poor.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I think about Martin Luther King Junior, not just a
seminarian and a PhD, but who was challenging the law.
And in this moment, when I think about, you know,
directing or conducting a choir, what would it mean? And
I guess this is rhetorical. I'm not asking you the question,
nor am I asking you to consider doing something foolish.
(13:45):
But what if would it mean if ten choirs with
robes on yes, singing yes, confronted ice yes, what are
you gonna do? Everybody praising him and saying I'm standing
with the immigrant, I'm standing by the lonely, I'm standing
(14:06):
by the disrespect that I'm standing by people who want
to feed their families and are being deported from the
United States, the last bastion of so called freedom on earth.
What would that mean if we transformed how we see
the worship experience into the kind of social justice activism
(14:27):
that I believe Labraton is talking about, and certainly your
wife is demanding and insisting that we stay at the
table and participated.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
That's why this read is open really to all of us.
And I think if I were to do anything, it
would encourage people who are not, you know, pastors, and
this is for the late person. And then it says
to you, then what must I do with this? How
do I act? You act with the tools that are
(14:59):
in your hand. In my area is the creative tools?
What is the creator? How do we stand up, sing up,
paint up, you know, right up? What are the things
that we can do to speak to the justice or
the injustices in our world? Yes, there are people that
are out there, but I think the church and for
(15:20):
me specifically, our worship uh and I worship leaders and
our song leaders have to extend what they do past
that eleven o'clock hour. And like you said, to robe
up and then go to a place where the immigrants
are and sing there. That's different. And again Reverend Meeks
(15:40):
taught me that we were in front of crack houses
singing the praises of God because there was power in it.
You know, we know the script of that God inhabits
the praises of his people. Well, we don't do the work.
It is God that does the work. So it's not
the singing that does the work. It is God that
work does the work. Repertory talks about something in a
(16:01):
book called the foolishness of God, that he chooses foolish
things like singing, like preaching, like protests, so to speak,
to show himself mighty, at to show himself strong. And
I think to your point, and you have that that
image is now stuck in my head of choirs robed
up and confronting Ice. But it's a new concept. Who
(16:23):
wants to do that? Where is that happening? You know? Uh?
But again, these are times now line in the sand
where a book like this and I love how oh oh, Barbara,
sorry forgive me I'm looking at. Robert called this an
(16:44):
a cyclical letter, that it is designed to wake people up.
It is a letter that says, Okay, if you've been
thinking one way, think about it this way. And I
think as this book gets traction, if you will, that
it will cause people to think and more importantly, cause
people to act. And from my perspective, if you are
a creative, how do you act up? You got to
(17:08):
act up? You got to act up.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
You know, I'd love to see a choir engage in
that kind of civil disability. I frankly, I would love
to see them force ICE's hand. Yes, I would love
to see them in their robes placed in paddy wagons. Yes,
I would love to see them all in court together
in their robes, in front of the judge, singing and say, now, now,
(17:34):
what are you accusing us of?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Right? Right? What are you accusing? Right?
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Are you going to lock up the whole choir?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yes? All we did was follow up the tenants of
our religion exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
We got we gained courage doing it together. Yes, we
didn't leave Martin Luther King in the in the Birmingham
jail by himself, or or leave Barber calls the capital
by himself, or or leave you know Jesse standing in
line at the a and p by himself. We're talking
(18:13):
about so many choirs being arrested in their full garments
and when they get to the judge magistrate they break
out in sells all. I mean, what's he going to do?
Lock everybody up? It's not going to It's not going
to happen. And so I can see some real value
(18:35):
in the transformation of the ministry itself by the engagement
of you know, the ministry and the Gospel in ways
that pique the attention and draw the attention of the
state itself. Rome is falling, something is wrong in Rome.
(18:56):
And there's this little movement that's taking place around the
Sea of Galilee that is becoming so powerful that we
want its leaders arrested. Give me John the Baptist, Give
me Jesus of Nazareth. Whatever it is, this love thing
they're talking about, this mercy thing here you're talking about.
(19:17):
If all of these things are so problematic for Rome,
then Reverend what I hate to use that. What the
hell is Rome? If love is such a problem around
the Sea of Galilee, If hope is such a problem,
if redemption, if staying at the table is such a problem,
then what the hell is Roomed? What are they about?
(19:38):
And I think in final analysis, we're going to have
to question and shake our faiths a little bit, because
I believe that Christianity, Reverend o Onans, is really part
of living. It's having the courage to live on a
dangerous road.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Thanks and that love that we say for God is
too private, and as so this book is. And you say,
who is saying to acquire? I mean this is new news.
I don't know until I went to Salem. I don't
know if many groups in quis and pastor said no, no, no, no, no, no,
don't put the deacons up front, don't he We led
(20:16):
those marchins, as you know, uh downtown about education and children,
about lack of education and opportunity, and the drawing up
he put us forward. It changed my mind. It was transformative,
and I think perhaps there was a new charge to
(20:36):
worship leaders and those of us who say we love God.
How do we make that public? Uh? Where we're standing there?
And you said, if you will that the images of
people inquiry world, singing about the reckless love of God,
the limitless love of God, and begging the question what
have we done singing about love and promoting this? So
(20:58):
yet it's quite new.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I am particularly impressed with the social justice angle of
the ministry because it really really redefines the Gospel. It
does when I was incarcerated. When I was in prison,
I just did not fully appreciate, as a middle class
Christian growing up in Chicago, how many of the stories
(21:23):
in the Bible are about men and women who experienced
some form of incarceration. Yes, I mean I read the
Bible in prison, from Genesis to Revelation, and it was
a completely different book, correct than the one I had
read going to church every Sunday Morning Middle Class Bible.
I cannot read it again the same. I just can't.
(21:45):
I just can't. It's impossible when you've gone through life
and you read the Bible. My grandmama and other grandmothers,
when they sing some of the Negro spirituals, it's very
different than a thirteen year old child singing a Negro spiritual.
It's a lived experience. And you can tell when Albertina
Walker sings it, yes, sir. You can tell when Aretha
(22:06):
sings it. And you can tell the difference when our
favorite cultural entertainer tries to sing it, Yes, he or she.
Just some of them struggle with trying to get there,
because that is the very nature of the space. I'm
Jesse Jackson Junior listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
When we come forward on KBL Talk fifteen eighty Doctor
(22:28):
Walter Owens, but also trained in the tradition of gospel
music and the Black Church. Dr Owens, welcome forward to
the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Thank you so great being here.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Barbara Jean, who is listening to us on social media, commented,
I absolutely loved the idea of choirs standing in the
tradition of Jesus of Nazareth and Martin Luther king here
against ice and singing, disarming them, disarming the culture, and
(23:12):
standing tall to demonstrate their faith. They are staying at
the American table. They are not retreating to the walls
of the church. They are in their faith, in their
choir robes, saying this is my faith. That the exercise
of our faith in this moment. We understand it to
(23:35):
be a dangerous road. Yes, but there's also strength in numbers.
It's strength in being together in that process, Doctor Owens,
help our listeners understand the strength of the altoes and
the and the harmonies that come together in song that
(23:56):
can also present itself in the streets.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Well, you just mentioned the whole beauty of coming together
to sing. Why do that? Uh? It is voices, different voices.
How about this coming together? It is soprano, the alto,
the tenor the bass, the contralto, if you will, any
other voice classifications coming together. One calls one song, doing
(24:24):
it all together. There's so many, so many things to
teach from that. And we do this naturally, but we
do this privately. We sing around, We sing on the
concert stage, and we sing and our worship serves us
beautiful churches, but very seldom. Uh. And I would be
(24:46):
interested to know if somebody could, could you know, refute this?
How often do choirs go out and live out uh,
their private worship, their their song? When do you see
that happen? Or where do you see that happening? It
could be happening. I'm just saying this, this book and
this conversation uh starts well, should awaken something in us.
(25:10):
This whole dangerous active worship, the dangerous act of worship,
the dan. I mean, those words don't even go together.
That's why I was so drawing. It's odd, the dangerous
act of worship, the eyes of what when we wake
up and when we sing up and when we stand up. Uh,
there's another force that's with us, if you know what
(25:31):
I mean. It's not just the voices that does that.
So the descripture that says the uh, the letter kill it,
but the spirit make it alive. We can sing notes
on a page and we can do, but it is
a spirit of God. And those of us who understand
what's you know singing worship really is? It is a
spirit and truth that worship Him must worship him in
(25:54):
spirit and in truth.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
As you let me ask you this question about spirit
and truth? Do we we nullify? One of my listeners?
In fact, our producer raises the question, do we nullify
the word of God or the ministry of the Revolutionary Christ? Yes,
when we keep it to ourselves in holy huddles.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Loved with And the resounding answer is yes, we do.
We nullify it when we just keep it probably, which
is why again I'm so excited about talking about this,
and UH, to be in all honesty, I was a
little nervous about coming on because I'm not the speaker.
(26:38):
You know, my wife is the eloquence.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Now you're comfortable, you're about to sing a song for
us too. I'm not going to out here.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Speaker. But but I said to myself, I've not been
called to this space for nothing. That that the years
that I've spent doing what I do, UH, and having
read this book and Readangeous Active Worship and now reading
if you will, right in my home, staying at the table,
and this call to action. Uh, this is a perfect
(27:07):
opportunity to bring this to the table, to say to
my fellow educators, music educators and worship leaders and music pastors.
We must stand along our pastors or the church. So
our pastors are out there, they're speaking, and guess what
when they go out there, there's a small group, you
know how it works, just in our church, the evangelism
(27:30):
group or the social action group that goes with them.
Very seldom do our singers go we very seldom do
do this army of singers. Our praise teams go on
the front line. But I would submit to you that
it's a it's a biblical practice as as old as
the ages, to send you the first to put them in.
(27:55):
And God is an example, or it's a it's a
model that God gave to us. But but it's not
until and and my wife mentions this whole idea of
a spiritual practices, and that must be a way in
which we understand the limits of a God and stay
at the table. Most of my colleagues do not know
biblical history to know that the the tribe of Judah
(28:18):
was set out first. They don't know that when we
sing of the love of God, the love of God
was what. It's what the the people of God used
to give them courage to fight, uh courage to to
(28:38):
to live day by day, our ancestors. I think it's powerful,
and I guess to to your listener's point, it would
be wonderful if this is the start of thinking about
doing that our singers, our pastors, encouraging UH, inviting our
our singers, our choirs UH to be on the front
(29:00):
line and doing what and making worship public.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
And Leverton's book The Dangerous Act of Worship, Living God's
Call to Justice one of his quotes the heart of
the battle over worship is this. Our worship practices are
separating all to justice and worse, foster the self indulgent
tendencies of our culture rather than nurturing the self sacrificing
(29:27):
life of the Kingdom of God. We are asleep. Nothing
is more important than for us to wake up and
practice the dangerous act of worship living God's Call to Justice.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Wow. Powerful, Nothing more powerful, I'm telling it. I reading
this book has only been probably a few a few months,
maybe six to eight months that I my life and
my ministry intersected with this book, and now staying at
the table is just like, okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I'm certainly hoping in this hour that ministers that are
listening that choir directors and members of choirs who are listening,
that there is another step that you can take correct
beyond choir rehearsal. Yes, beyond Sunday worship. There is something
out here for you to do in the streets. Yes,
and you might be a little afraid of it, but
(30:23):
we can do it together in our robes, and we
can teach this system something about the Gospels. I'm Jesse
Jackson Junior. When we come forward, this is KBLA talk
fifteen to eighty. When we come forward, doctor Owens will
have a question or two more for him, but he
will also share with us our final word of hope.
I'm Jesse Jackson, Jesse Jackson Junior Show. My very special
(30:44):
guest in this hour has been doctor Walter Owens. He
is the spouse or the spice a Reverend Theresa Horde Owens,
who is normally with us on this series The Faith
Not to Fall. I'm so grateful that doctor Owens is
with us today. Doctor Owens, welcome forward to the Jesse
Jackson Junior Show.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Thanks for having me. So.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I had this vision during the break. Mama, Mama, I
got some great news.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
What is it, Mama? What is it? Son?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I saw the entire choir on the news and they
were holding their bibles. Well, that is some good news, son.
What's the bad news, Mama. I don't think they're going
to be in church this Sunday because they got arrested
by ice and they made a major statement that something
(31:45):
is taking place in this country that is outside the
grace of God.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talking to me, you mentioned earlier and
you were thought as we were closing the last segment
that the weapons of our warfare are not counter but
they're mighty through Gods or the pulling down the strongholds.
I think we don't understand the power that we have,
which is why we stay in our choir stance and
(32:09):
stay safely, you know, behind our choir robes, if you will,
Because we don't understand the power of the Gospel. We
don't want to stand the power of the reckless love
of God. That the reckless love of God causes us
to live out the Gospel the whole point mark Labritis.
But living out our call to a justice through our worship,
(32:31):
through our voice, it is powerful.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
It is not powerful because of us. It is powerful
because of God. He has given us, He has given
his church a weapon that cannot be silenced, that cannot
be taken away from us. I don't care if they
arrest us or whatever the consequence is. It cannot be
(32:54):
taken away from us. And I think back to the
civil rights movement and other movements where singing was so
important and what's so prominent, and it does have power,
and I think we have to reclaim this power. And
maybe just through this conversation and through the book and
through other ways. Uh uh, it's it's been awakened in people. Uh.
(33:15):
And I think it's I think it's that time. It's
time for us to be to awake o sleeper. As
as Mark was.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Saying, you know, you know, I think in this moment
I'm singing this song to myself, we are not ashamed, yes,
of Jesus Christ. And then I think about, obviously the
antithesis of that, the opposite of that is if you
are not exercising the gospel in real time for your neighbor,
you are ashamed of it.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I mean this is a dangerous book. I mean it
is dangerous stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yes, because we got we got to go public.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yes, Yes, I think that we sing it with such conviction, yes,
from the congregation and even to the congregation from the
choir stand. But when you take that gospel and you
confront injustice with it, the same song takes on a different.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Meaning, different meaning exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Doctor Owens, we only have a few moments left in
our program, about about five minutes. Can you help offer
us our country, our nation, a word of hope?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Well, this little light of mind. You just made me
think about it as you were talking about songs we've sung,
this little light of mind. We have to take what
we have. God has always asked a question, what is
in your hand? When he was asking what can I
do and what impact can I make? He always asks
what is in your hand? What do you have? So
I come to the table saying, Okay, I'm an educator,
(34:48):
I'm a coach, I'm an arts administrator. With that in
my hand, how can I use that to live out
the call of justice or to live out what I
say I believe about God in the world. How do
I live out the limitless love of God in the world.
I think we have to rethink, as my wife has
(35:08):
encouraged us to do. We think we imagine, as Walter
Brugeman asked, us to think about the prophetic imagination of God,
get inside God's mind and re imagine what we can
do to really make a difference. And I'm so glad
that staying at the table that's out there. It's a
new uh, it's a new book, but it's an old idea,
so to speak. Uh. And Reb Terry hoard Owns has
(35:31):
brought it to the four And I, as her husband
or even just as a late person clergy uh creative,
have to do my part. I kind of just see
this something that others have to do. I have to
see this something that I must do. We must stand up,
sing up, speak up, uh, and live out God's call
to justice and stay at the table.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
I'm particularly proud and grateful doctor Owens, that you have
been on our program today. But I'm equally as grateful
that every week you share your wife with us insight,
her wisdom, her care, her concern, her love of neighbor.
Someone who lives their life and God's their life with
clear intention. She pays attention to intention. She is the
(36:22):
leader of a multicultural and multi racial denomination. Absolutely she
pays attention to the sensitivities of different cultures, of different
walks of life. For some of us pastoring and preaching
is y'all, come, here's the word, here's our lived experience,
(36:49):
and we shout, holla and cry about it.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
But imagine looking out upon blacks and whites and Latinos
and Native Americans and the rich and the poor, and
the middle class and working class people having to give
a sermon every Sunday, Yes, read the newspaper, watch the news,
(37:18):
knowing that everybody in the congregation ain't going to agree
with your interpretation of the Bible. And then at the
end of the sermon, still hold everybody on the edge
of their seats to the word because you've found the language,
the words, the spirit, energy, the sense of spirituality necessary
(37:43):
to keep a rainbow coalition together. Yes, a rainbow coalition
doesn't just show up at voter time. Sometimes we have
to unite people by other things, not by their color,
but by their pain. Yes, we unite people also in
their suffering. We unite people in there, in there in
(38:03):
their commonality. And I don't know anyone who does that
better than your wife, nerv Theresa Horde Owen's right here
on the Jesse Jackson Junior Show Doctor Owenes. I got
about thirty seconds. I'm going to give it to you.
A final thought, a final word.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
May I say to our colleagues, my colleagues across whatever
disciplines you are you participate in, get this book. Let
it resonate with you, let it sit with it and
find out what you can do. Want to stay at
the table, at the lowest table. It's not our table,
(38:37):
it's his table, but to also operate in the world
on his behalf, with the kids that you have in
your hands.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
I'm Jesse Jackson jun You've been listening to the Jesse
Jackson Junior Show on KBLA Talk fifteen to eighty until
tomorrow
Jesse Jackson Junior. Welcome to the second child of our program. Today.
We are going to be discussing in this hour the
dangerous act of worship. Now there ever was a oxymorn
the idea that worship can be dangerous. It's something we
will discuss today with doctor Walter Owens, who serves as
(00:21):
doctor Charlie Dates and the thirteen thousand member of the
Congregation of the Salem Baptist Church of Chicago as its
Minister of Music and Arts, a role that includes leadership
to ten arts related ministries and more than five hundred people.
He completed his undergraduate work at Northwestern University in music
and education and graduate work at Butler University in Indianapolis,
(00:41):
Indiana in conducting. Yes, he is a formal conductor. He's
a magic faculty member at the Moody Bible Institute and
at Columbia College, where he conducts the Gospel Repertory Ensemble
and the Gospel Choir. Doctor Owen's welcome forward to the
Jesse Jackson Junior show.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
While it is so great to be here today, I.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Am so honored that you are here and you're filling
in for none of us than my favorite Reverend Teresa
Hoard Owens, your lovely wife, the president of the Disciples
of Christ Church. Please give her our very best.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I sure will, Doctor Owens, this book has obviously piqued
your attention as something that I think we're going to
have to really really discuss today.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
This book The Dangerous Act of Worship. Why is worship
so dangerous?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Well, let me first say give kudos to my wife
and who is currently leading the General Assembly of the
Christian Church Disciples of Crisis. Why she's not here today,
And she asked me to sit in and to talk
about her book, a new book, this thing at the
Table of being the church we say we are. And
(02:01):
as I thought about what I can reflect upon, I
thought about a book that I have just recently become
aware of and it's really been transformative to me, called
The Dangerous Act of Worship. I was reading the book
staying at the table, and it was encouraging every believer
or whoever would read the book to start with the
(02:25):
limitless love of God. Everything we do, everything we who
we are just about what we believe about God. And
I was trying to figure out so as a as
a worship leader at Arts Administration, Arts administrator, educator, How
do I read that book and what does that mean
to me? And I was I was provoked. I was
(02:51):
convicted that so many of us who lead creative teams
in the church, and I'm a churchman south side of Chicago,
eld would have born there, raised there, uh, and now
have served many churches across many denominations. Our worship is
so private, and it's it's what we sing and things
(03:15):
that we do. It's often not how we act. And
so as I read this book, UH, everything led to
if I believe this about God, that I must do this.
We often say, if if I believe this about God,
that I must sing this, I must. You know, it's
so private, this everything we do in our liturgy and
(03:35):
everything that we come together to do on Sunday morning.
But what what happens after we leave Sunday morning worship?
How does that worship find this way in the streets
and in our lives? How does our worship, our private
worship become our public witness? And so reading the book
(03:59):
just provoked me and and I tried to read it through,
read it through the lens of a late person, read
it through the lens of a clergy a music pastor
and read it quite frankly as the life partner of
the author, and I was moved in so many ways
about so many things. And again, this book came up
about the dangerous act of worship, and so little has
(04:22):
talked about how we live out our love for God
and our worship for God. It never or often never
makes his way into the streets into our public witnesses.
So this book just just really made me think about
so many things. And Mike Marx Labratine just just the
(04:46):
premise of the book was that, uh, the dangerous act
of worship is really waking up to everything that the
Word of God tells us to do and be, and
not just sing it.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So, you know, I appreciate that was I read part
of what Mark Laberton wrote in The Dangerous Act of Worship,
living God's Call to Justice, and in it he says, Jesus,
if anything was and is awake, that's not for those
who encounter him in the Gospels. He came to make
a world of those who are awake, awake to God,
to each other and to the world. Waking up is
(05:21):
the dangerous act of worship. It's dangerous because worship is
meant to produce lives fully attentive to the reality as
God sees it, and that's more than most of us
want to deal with. I'm Jacky Jackson Junior. You're listening
to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. In this hour on
KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. Our very special guest is none
(05:42):
other than doctor Owens. When we come forward, our doctor
Walter Owens is my very special guest, and we're talking
about the book The Dangerous Act of Worship, Living God's
Call to Justice. And just before the break, I said, Jesus,
if anything was and is awake, that's the shock for
(06:03):
those who encounter him in the Gospels. He came to
make a world of those who are awake, awake to God,
awake to each other, awake to the world. Waking up
is the dangerous act of worship. It's dangerous because worship
is meant to produce lives fully attentive the reality of
God as God sees it, and that's more than most
(06:25):
of us want to deal with. Now, I'd like to say,
doctor Owens, that this is one of those times where
I come up with one of my own little quotes.
We don't need to understand. We need to innerstand and overstand.
We understand nothing. We understand and overstand everything because we
(06:52):
in it. Yes, help us right here make sense of
this idea that we are supposed to to be wide awake.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Well, let me let me read the passage that that
he talks about or takes his phrase from, about waking
up uh, and it's divers Ephesians at the five fourteen.
It says, wake up, sleeper, rise and the dead and
Christ will shine on you. And this is a great
message of really transformation. And it suggests that believers can
(07:25):
move from a state of spiritual darkness to one being
illuminated if you will, by Christ's presence or even the
word of God. And again, as I read Staying at
the Table, I try to I tried to read it
again through those lens. I'm her husband, I'm a church leader.
I'm a late person. What does it mean for me?
One of the things that I do most of the time,
(07:47):
and my work is leading people in worship. If I'm
leading people and get this, doctor Jackson, Uh, I passed
there takes the time that he takes in worship forty
minutes to an hour at all de places what church
are going to He lends gives way for the music
(08:13):
to have at least thirty minutes in front of the
people in the congregation. If we are taking up that
time in people's live, spirits and hearts, what are we
really saying? Now they're those who will comfort me and say,
this is all about God worship shouldn't be bout anything else.
And you know the conversations people have about social justice issue,
(08:36):
it doesn't belong in the church and why you're doing that.
So we have left churches. You know, me from a
membership at the Salem Baptist Church with the Reverend James
to Meeks who eventually became senator. To James Meeks, many
people took, you know, took sides whether or not you know,
you know, the discussion should preachers being politics? Let me
(08:57):
tell you what he showed me. He showed me not
only should people be in politics, but the church should
be at the forefront of moving uh, moving moving the
people of God forward and moving moving the kingdom. That's
that's what, just moving the kingdom forward. And he would
often as you know, he dried up the liquor stores
(09:21):
in the area. He come back the political dynasties and
the system there. Uh. He he took us to crack
houses and what he would do and this is where
I hang my hat. He would have the singers go first.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
He would have us. Now you have to understand, I
came up background before I came to Salem. My work
was in the choir stred. It was on the pool
is of a mic. It never made its way out
into the streets until he helped us to see that's
where it belongs. There's a scripture that talks about sending
you the first, now those of us, and you have
(10:01):
to understand some of the artist members are from churches
where sending you to first means praise. You know, we
praised first. Yeah. But in context that Judah was a
tribe of singers that they sent before the battle. There
was something powerful that God put in music. And if
(10:21):
you will, in worship that does what we cannot do
because we fight not against flesh and blood, but it's spiritual.
And so when you bring that element to the table us,
it's a two eded sword, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And Ribbon Meeks taught me, or showed me, that your
work begins when you leave worship service, and so what
staying at the table to me suggests to me that
if I start with the limitless love of God UH,
and it causes me to worship, then again, the book
(10:56):
Dangerous Acting Worship says, then you must do something, you
must act. It's the same thing that repent Terry is
saying in her book, don't just be silent. You start
with the limits of love of God. There's so many
roads you cannot go down and places you must start from.
So I was, I was provoked, moved transformed. When Mark
(11:19):
Labratin says this is the dangerous act of worship, and
he gives several examples of of UH across the world.
One of the people who have stepped forward and allowed
the Gospel, allowed their worship to be more than just
about private.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
One of the one of the things that I admire
so much about about your wife, the General President and
Minister of the Disciples of Christ, is this she has
one foot in the pulpit, yes, and one foot in
the struggle for social justice in this nation.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
One of the reasons Reverend meets his ministry is so
profane that he had one foot in the pulpit, but
he had another foot in the state legislature, yes, to
get liquor stores, yes, and drunk folk by drying out
the community from being around the church while folk coming
and going right, and the lack of sobriety in the neighborhood.
(12:19):
And we as a people need to stop calling liquor
store after liquor store, half a dozen of them on
the same block as economic development. That ain't no economic development.
And we got so used to seeing it that way
that Reverend Meeks said, I'm standing up to that. One
of the things that I admire about Reverend doctor Todd
(12:40):
Yerie on Wednesdays, Wealthy Wednesdays on this program. He has
one foot in the pulpit, but he's a lawyer. He's
also got one foot in criminal trials and one foot
in civil trials, and he's arguing before judges and juries
every single day, but preaching on Sunday, Yes, And I
mean he sees something in those churches and in those
(13:02):
courtrooms and strikes a balance in his life that is woke.
That requires a different kind of activists. I think about
Reverend Attorney William Barber, who's both a lawyer and both
a minister and yet a champion for the poor.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I think about Martin Luther King Junior, not just a
seminarian and a PhD, but who was challenging the law.
And in this moment, when I think about, you know,
directing or conducting a choir, what would it mean? And
I guess this is rhetorical. I'm not asking you the question,
nor am I asking you to consider doing something foolish.
(13:45):
But what if would it mean if ten choirs with
robes on yes, singing yes, confronted ice yes, what are
you gonna do? Everybody praising him and saying I'm standing
with the immigrant, I'm standing by the lonely, I'm standing
(14:06):
by the disrespect that I'm standing by people who want
to feed their families and are being deported from the
United States, the last bastion of so called freedom on earth.
What would that mean if we transformed how we see
the worship experience into the kind of social justice activism
(14:27):
that I believe Labraton is talking about, and certainly your
wife is demanding and insisting that we stay at the
table and participated.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
That's why this read is open really to all of us.
And I think if I were to do anything, it
would encourage people who are not, you know, pastors, and
this is for the late person. And then it says
to you, then what must I do with this? How
do I act? You act with the tools that are
(14:59):
in your hand. In my area is the creative tools?
What is the creator? How do we stand up, sing up,
paint up, you know, right up? What are the things
that we can do to speak to the justice or
the injustices in our world? Yes, there are people that
are out there, but I think the church and for
(15:20):
me specifically, our worship uh and I worship leaders and
our song leaders have to extend what they do past
that eleven o'clock hour. And like you said, to robe
up and then go to a place where the immigrants
are and sing there. That's different. And again Reverend Meeks
(15:40):
taught me that we were in front of crack houses
singing the praises of God because there was power in it.
You know, we know the script of that God inhabits
the praises of his people. Well, we don't do the work.
It is God that does the work. So it's not
the singing that does the work. It is God that
work does the work. Repertory talks about something in a
(16:01):
book called the foolishness of God, that he chooses foolish
things like singing, like preaching, like protests, so to speak,
to show himself mighty, at to show himself strong. And
I think to your point, and you have that that
image is now stuck in my head of choirs robed
up and confronting Ice. But it's a new concept. Who
(16:23):
wants to do that? Where is that happening? You know? Uh?
But again, these are times now line in the sand
where a book like this and I love how oh oh, Barbara,
sorry forgive me I'm looking at. Robert called this an
(16:44):
a cyclical letter, that it is designed to wake people up.
It is a letter that says, Okay, if you've been
thinking one way, think about it this way. And I
think as this book gets traction, if you will, that
it will cause people to think and more importantly, cause
people to act. And from my perspective, if you are
a creative, how do you act up? You got to
(17:08):
act up? You got to act up.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
You know, I'd love to see a choir engage in
that kind of civil disability. I frankly, I would love
to see them force ICE's hand. Yes, I would love
to see them in their robes placed in paddy wagons. Yes,
I would love to see them all in court together
in their robes, in front of the judge, singing and say, now, now,
(17:34):
what are you accusing us of?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Right? Right? What are you accusing? Right?
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Are you going to lock up the whole choir?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yes? All we did was follow up the tenants of
our religion exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
We got we gained courage doing it together. Yes, we
didn't leave Martin Luther King in the in the Birmingham
jail by himself, or or leave Barber calls the capital
by himself, or or leave you know Jesse standing in
line at the a and p by himself. We're talking
(18:13):
about so many choirs being arrested in their full garments
and when they get to the judge magistrate they break
out in sells all. I mean, what's he going to do?
Lock everybody up? It's not going to It's not going
to happen. And so I can see some real value
(18:35):
in the transformation of the ministry itself by the engagement
of you know, the ministry and the Gospel in ways
that pique the attention and draw the attention of the
state itself. Rome is falling, something is wrong in Rome.
(18:56):
And there's this little movement that's taking place around the
Sea of Galilee that is becoming so powerful that we
want its leaders arrested. Give me John the Baptist, Give
me Jesus of Nazareth. Whatever it is, this love thing
they're talking about, this mercy thing here you're talking about.
(19:17):
If all of these things are so problematic for Rome,
then Reverend what I hate to use that. What the
hell is Rome? If love is such a problem around
the Sea of Galilee, If hope is such a problem,
if redemption, if staying at the table is such a problem,
then what the hell is Roomed? What are they about?
(19:38):
And I think in final analysis, we're going to have
to question and shake our faiths a little bit, because
I believe that Christianity, Reverend o Onans, is really part
of living. It's having the courage to live on a
dangerous road.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Thanks and that love that we say for God is
too private, and as so this book is. And you say,
who is saying to acquire? I mean this is new news.
I don't know until I went to Salem. I don't
know if many groups in quis and pastor said no, no, no, no, no, no,
don't put the deacons up front, don't he We led
(20:16):
those marchins, as you know, uh downtown about education and children,
about lack of education and opportunity, and the drawing up
he put us forward. It changed my mind. It was transformative,
and I think perhaps there was a new charge to
(20:36):
worship leaders and those of us who say we love God.
How do we make that public? Uh? Where we're standing there?
And you said, if you will that the images of
people inquiry world, singing about the reckless love of God,
the limitless love of God, and begging the question what
have we done singing about love and promoting this? So
(20:58):
yet it's quite new.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I am particularly impressed with the social justice angle of
the ministry because it really really redefines the Gospel. It
does when I was incarcerated. When I was in prison,
I just did not fully appreciate, as a middle class
Christian growing up in Chicago, how many of the stories
(21:23):
in the Bible are about men and women who experienced
some form of incarceration. Yes, I mean I read the
Bible in prison, from Genesis to Revelation, and it was
a completely different book, correct than the one I had
read going to church every Sunday Morning Middle Class Bible.
I cannot read it again the same. I just can't.
(21:45):
I just can't. It's impossible when you've gone through life
and you read the Bible. My grandmama and other grandmothers,
when they sing some of the Negro spirituals, it's very
different than a thirteen year old child singing a Negro spiritual.
It's a lived experience. And you can tell when Albertina
Walker sings it, yes, sir. You can tell when Aretha
(22:06):
sings it. And you can tell the difference when our
favorite cultural entertainer tries to sing it, Yes, he or she.
Just some of them struggle with trying to get there,
because that is the very nature of the space. I'm
Jesse Jackson Junior listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
When we come forward on KBL Talk fifteen eighty Doctor
(22:28):
Walter Owens, but also trained in the tradition of gospel
music and the Black Church. Dr Owens, welcome forward to
the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Thank you so great being here.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Barbara Jean, who is listening to us on social media, commented,
I absolutely loved the idea of choirs standing in the
tradition of Jesus of Nazareth and Martin Luther king here
against ice and singing, disarming them, disarming the culture, and
(23:12):
standing tall to demonstrate their faith. They are staying at
the American table. They are not retreating to the walls
of the church. They are in their faith, in their
choir robes, saying this is my faith. That the exercise
of our faith in this moment. We understand it to
(23:35):
be a dangerous road. Yes, but there's also strength in numbers.
It's strength in being together in that process, Doctor Owens,
help our listeners understand the strength of the altoes and
the and the harmonies that come together in song that
(23:56):
can also present itself in the streets.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Well, you just mentioned the whole beauty of coming together
to sing. Why do that? Uh? It is voices, different voices.
How about this coming together? It is soprano, the alto,
the tenor the bass, the contralto, if you will, any
other voice classifications coming together. One calls one song, doing
(24:24):
it all together. There's so many, so many things to
teach from that. And we do this naturally, but we
do this privately. We sing around, We sing on the
concert stage, and we sing and our worship serves us
beautiful churches, but very seldom. Uh. And I would be
(24:46):
interested to know if somebody could, could you know, refute this?
How often do choirs go out and live out uh,
their private worship, their their song? When do you see
that happen? Or where do you see that happening? It
could be happening. I'm just saying this, this book and
this conversation uh starts well, should awaken something in us.
(25:10):
This whole dangerous active worship, the dangerous act of worship,
the dan. I mean, those words don't even go together.
That's why I was so drawing. It's odd, the dangerous
act of worship, the eyes of what when we wake
up and when we sing up and when we stand up. Uh,
there's another force that's with us, if you know what
(25:31):
I mean. It's not just the voices that does that.
So the descripture that says the uh, the letter kill it,
but the spirit make it alive. We can sing notes
on a page and we can do, but it is
a spirit of God. And those of us who understand
what's you know singing worship really is? It is a
spirit and truth that worship Him must worship him in
(25:54):
spirit and in truth.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
As you let me ask you this question about spirit
and truth? Do we we nullify? One of my listeners?
In fact, our producer raises the question, do we nullify
the word of God or the ministry of the Revolutionary Christ? Yes,
when we keep it to ourselves in holy huddles.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Loved with And the resounding answer is yes, we do.
We nullify it when we just keep it probably, which
is why again I'm so excited about talking about this,
and UH, to be in all honesty, I was a
little nervous about coming on because I'm not the speaker.
(26:38):
You know, my wife is the eloquence.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Now you're comfortable, you're about to sing a song for
us too. I'm not going to out here.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Speaker. But but I said to myself, I've not been
called to this space for nothing. That that the years
that I've spent doing what I do, UH, and having
read this book and Readangeous Active Worship and now reading
if you will, right in my home, staying at the table,
and this call to action. Uh, this is a perfect
(27:07):
opportunity to bring this to the table, to say to
my fellow educators, music educators and worship leaders and music pastors.
We must stand along our pastors or the church. So
our pastors are out there, they're speaking, and guess what
when they go out there, there's a small group, you
know how it works, just in our church, the evangelism
(27:30):
group or the social action group that goes with them.
Very seldom do our singers go we very seldom do
do this army of singers. Our praise teams go on
the front line. But I would submit to you that
it's a it's a biblical practice as as old as
the ages, to send you the first to put them in.
(27:55):
And God is an example, or it's a it's a
model that God gave to us. But but it's not
until and and my wife mentions this whole idea of
a spiritual practices, and that must be a way in
which we understand the limits of a God and stay
at the table. Most of my colleagues do not know
biblical history to know that the the tribe of Judah
(28:18):
was set out first. They don't know that when we
sing of the love of God, the love of God
was what. It's what the the people of God used
to give them courage to fight, uh courage to to
(28:38):
to live day by day, our ancestors. I think it's powerful,
and I guess to to your listener's point, it would
be wonderful if this is the start of thinking about
doing that our singers, our pastors, encouraging UH, inviting our
our singers, our choirs UH to be on the front
(29:00):
line and doing what and making worship public.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
And Leverton's book The Dangerous Act of Worship, Living God's
Call to Justice one of his quotes the heart of
the battle over worship is this. Our worship practices are
separating all to justice and worse, foster the self indulgent
tendencies of our culture rather than nurturing the self sacrificing
(29:27):
life of the Kingdom of God. We are asleep. Nothing
is more important than for us to wake up and
practice the dangerous act of worship living God's Call to Justice.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Wow. Powerful, Nothing more powerful, I'm telling it. I reading
this book has only been probably a few a few months,
maybe six to eight months that I my life and
my ministry intersected with this book, and now staying at
the table is just like, okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I'm certainly hoping in this hour that ministers that are
listening that choir directors and members of choirs who are listening,
that there is another step that you can take correct
beyond choir rehearsal. Yes, beyond Sunday worship. There is something
out here for you to do in the streets. Yes,
and you might be a little afraid of it, but
(30:23):
we can do it together in our robes, and we
can teach this system something about the Gospels. I'm Jesse
Jackson Junior. When we come forward, this is KBLA talk
fifteen to eighty. When we come forward, doctor Owens will
have a question or two more for him, but he
will also share with us our final word of hope.
I'm Jesse Jackson, Jesse Jackson Junior Show. My very special
(30:44):
guest in this hour has been doctor Walter Owens. He
is the spouse or the spice a Reverend Theresa Horde Owens,
who is normally with us on this series The Faith
Not to Fall. I'm so grateful that doctor Owens is
with us today. Doctor Owens, welcome forward to the Jesse
Jackson Junior Show.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Thanks for having me. So.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I had this vision during the break. Mama, Mama, I
got some great news.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
What is it, Mama? What is it? Son?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I saw the entire choir on the news and they
were holding their bibles. Well, that is some good news, son.
What's the bad news, Mama. I don't think they're going
to be in church this Sunday because they got arrested
by ice and they made a major statement that something
(31:45):
is taking place in this country that is outside the
grace of God.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talking to me, you mentioned earlier and
you were thought as we were closing the last segment
that the weapons of our warfare are not counter but
they're mighty through Gods or the pulling down the strongholds.
I think we don't understand the power that we have,
which is why we stay in our choir stance and
(32:09):
stay safely, you know, behind our choir robes, if you will,
Because we don't understand the power of the Gospel. We
don't want to stand the power of the reckless love
of God. That the reckless love of God causes us
to live out the Gospel the whole point mark Labritis.
But living out our call to a justice through our worship,
(32:31):
through our voice, it is powerful.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
It is not powerful because of us. It is powerful
because of God. He has given us, He has given
his church a weapon that cannot be silenced, that cannot
be taken away from us. I don't care if they
arrest us or whatever the consequence is. It cannot be
(32:54):
taken away from us. And I think back to the
civil rights movement and other movements where singing was so
important and what's so prominent, and it does have power,
and I think we have to reclaim this power. And
maybe just through this conversation and through the book and
through other ways. Uh uh, it's it's been awakened in people. Uh.
(33:15):
And I think it's I think it's that time. It's
time for us to be to awake o sleeper. As
as Mark was.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Saying, you know, you know, I think in this moment
I'm singing this song to myself, we are not ashamed, yes,
of Jesus Christ. And then I think about, obviously the
antithesis of that, the opposite of that is if you
are not exercising the gospel in real time for your neighbor,
you are ashamed of it.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I mean this is a dangerous book. I mean it
is dangerous stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yes, because we got we got to go public.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yes, Yes, I think that we sing it with such conviction, yes,
from the congregation and even to the congregation from the
choir stand. But when you take that gospel and you
confront injustice with it, the same song takes on a different.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Meaning, different meaning exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Doctor Owens, we only have a few moments left in
our program, about about five minutes. Can you help offer
us our country, our nation, a word of hope?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Well, this little light of mind. You just made me
think about it as you were talking about songs we've sung,
this little light of mind. We have to take what
we have. God has always asked a question, what is
in your hand? When he was asking what can I
do and what impact can I make? He always asks
what is in your hand? What do you have? So
I come to the table saying, Okay, I'm an educator,
(34:48):
I'm a coach, I'm an arts administrator. With that in
my hand, how can I use that to live out
the call of justice or to live out what I
say I believe about God in the world. How do
I live out the limitless love of God in the world.
I think we have to rethink, as my wife has
(35:08):
encouraged us to do. We think we imagine, as Walter
Brugeman asked, us to think about the prophetic imagination of God,
get inside God's mind and re imagine what we can
do to really make a difference. And I'm so glad
that staying at the table that's out there. It's a
new uh, it's a new book, but it's an old idea,
so to speak. Uh. And Reb Terry hoard Owns has
(35:31):
brought it to the four And I, as her husband
or even just as a late person clergy uh creative,
have to do my part. I kind of just see
this something that others have to do. I have to
see this something that I must do. We must stand up,
sing up, speak up, uh, and live out God's call
to justice and stay at the table.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
I'm particularly proud and grateful doctor Owens, that you have
been on our program today. But I'm equally as grateful
that every week you share your wife with us insight,
her wisdom, her care, her concern, her love of neighbor.
Someone who lives their life and God's their life with
clear intention. She pays attention to intention. She is the
(36:22):
leader of a multicultural and multi racial denomination. Absolutely she
pays attention to the sensitivities of different cultures, of different
walks of life. For some of us pastoring and preaching
is y'all, come, here's the word, here's our lived experience,
(36:49):
and we shout, holla and cry about it.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
But imagine looking out upon blacks and whites and Latinos
and Native Americans and the rich and the poor, and
the middle class and working class people having to give
a sermon every Sunday, Yes, read the newspaper, watch the news,
(37:18):
knowing that everybody in the congregation ain't going to agree
with your interpretation of the Bible. And then at the
end of the sermon, still hold everybody on the edge
of their seats to the word because you've found the language,
the words, the spirit, energy, the sense of spirituality necessary
(37:43):
to keep a rainbow coalition together. Yes, a rainbow coalition
doesn't just show up at voter time. Sometimes we have
to unite people by other things, not by their color,
but by their pain. Yes, we unite people also in
their suffering. We unite people in there, in there in
(38:03):
their commonality. And I don't know anyone who does that
better than your wife, nerv Theresa Horde Owen's right here
on the Jesse Jackson Junior Show Doctor Owenes. I got
about thirty seconds. I'm going to give it to you.
A final thought, a final word.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
May I say to our colleagues, my colleagues across whatever
disciplines you are you participate in, get this book. Let
it resonate with you, let it sit with it and
find out what you can do. Want to stay at
the table, at the lowest table. It's not our table,
(38:37):
it's his table, but to also operate in the world
on his behalf, with the kids that you have in
your hands.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
I'm Jesse Jackson jun You've been listening to the Jesse
Jackson Junior Show on KBLA Talk fifteen to eighty until
tomorrow
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