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August 5, 2025 82 mins
Moving Mountain Mondays on The Jesse Jackson Jr Show with guest - the incomparable author, leading-edge liberation theologian and teacher, Dr. Obery Hendricks - exploded into a full blown “message on fire” as Jackson and JJJ Show weekly Monday special guest of “The Faith Not to Fall,” Rev. Teresa Hord Owens cooked with gas…blazing a trail down the road of what “one anotherness” truly means and looks like when the people engage in the garden of good and evil. 
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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Jesse Jackson Junior and welcome to Moving Mountain mondays on
the Jesse Dack from being Chill. What an amazing kill
that Tavis Smiley had in the first three hours here
on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty to treat Abandon Hoovel Voting
Rights Act, the State of Texas, the Mayor of New York.

(00:22):
What an extraordinary three hours that we've been blessed with
Tabas Smiley and in the next two hours. A lifelong
social activist, Doctor Obery Hendrick is one of the foremost
commentators on the intersection a religion and political economy in America.
He's the most widely read and perhaps the most influential

(00:42):
African American biblical scholar today. His recent books Christian Against Christianity,
How right Wing Evangelicals Are Destroying Our Nation and Our
Faith has gathered worldwide acclaim. Cornell West calls him one
of the last few grand prophetic intellectuals. He is a
widely sought lecturer and media spokesperson. Doctor Hendrickscu's appearances include CNN, MSNBC, CBS,

(01:08):
Fox News, Fox Business News, the Discovery Channel, PBS, BBK,
in IK Japan Television, and the Bloomberg Network. He has
provided running event commentary for the National Public Radio MSNBC,
the Al Jazeera and Aspire International television networks. Doctor Hendrix
is simply the foremost authority from my perspective, on Christian thinking,

(01:33):
particularly liberation thinking in the United States. In this hour,
none other than doctor Aubery Hendrix is our very special
guest on the Jesse Jackson Junior Show on Moving Mountain Mondays.
Doctor Hendrix, Welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Good to be with you as always, brother, Thank you,
thank you for the kind introduction. You know, I look
pretty good on paper. I guess you know, the reality
a little different, but thank god, I look good on
paper far.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
More than that, doctor Hendricks. Doctor Hendrix, We're living in
some fairly extraordinary times, and I do know that we
have some subject matters that we are going to cover
in the next hour, but I'd like your thoughts on
the context that we find ourselves in in this moment.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
No, it's a scary, scary, scary context, brother, I mean
we're in I used to think we were on the
road to fascism, but we're in the midst of fascism now.
And you know when the head of state can remove
officials because he does not like the fact that they

(02:43):
share true statistics. I mean, it's it's a scary thing
picking up people off the street. I mean, it's it's
reminiscent of of the SS in Nazi Germany. Just pick
up anyone at any time, and it's a scary, scary,
dangerous as time. What's most frightening is that most people
have no idea how deadly dangerous this time is.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
And by that you mean they are not remaining awake
through a revolution.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, they exactly, They're they're not remaining well, you know, uh,
you know the gas lighting is uh, it's so effective.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
And and what and what Trump and his boys have
learned to do is to repeat the lies over and over,
like you know, Devil's taught and taught through Nazi Germany, so.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
That you know, people believe it.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
And the other thing is that most folks, I think,
have a hard time believing that he's really as evil
as he is and as hatefully evil as as he is.
And that was the same with Hitler. Of course, people
couldn't believe that he was as bad as as uh
as he beard, but per but Trump is really that

(03:58):
hateful and he has common deer so so much of
so many Christians and Christian nationalists. Uh that people are
just confused and it's scary, brother, really scary and dangerous.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Doctor Hendrick. We have about a minute before the break.
Do you see any way out of the conundrum that
the nation and in fact the world find itself finds
itself in.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, get rid of Trump for one thing. But from
from our end, we have to trumpet the truth over
and over and over and and not be afraid to
do so, and to challenge there, challenge their lives at
every front, and to point out that these this is
an evil, evil onslaught. It's not just politics. You know,

(04:38):
Trump is evil, but Stephen Miller is a is a
horribly evil, hateful person. We need to let people realize
that you have hateful, evil people ruling over that who
will do anything to uh uh, to maintain and and
to gain more power.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
You know, I find it. I find it somewhat fascinating.
You know my father very well, and you know every
civil rights activists on the stage today very well. It
seems that their work is well, it's being unraveled right before.
They're very odds.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Absolutely absolutely. Your father must well, your father and and
all those strugglers. Man, they must be really looking back
and feeling and feeling terrible at all the work they've done,
like the voting rights and all that. They're already uh,
they're they're poised to uh to destroy all of that.
I mean seriously right now as you know, they're poised

(05:30):
to do that. They have a legislation uh in hand
to do that. So it's it's it's terrible.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
You're listening to Moving Mountain Mondays on the Jesse Jackson
Junior Show. I'm Jesse Jackson Jr. When we come back,
come back on kbl A Talk fifty eight. Our very
special guest is none other than renowned theologian doctor Oberi Hendrix.
Jackson Jr. Welcome to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. This
is Moving Mountain Mondays on the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
And our very special guest is none none other than

(06:00):
one of the nation's foremost biblical scholars and thinkers, doctor
Aubrey Hendrix. Doctor Hendrix, welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson
Junior Show.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yes, thank you, thank you, sir.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Just before the show earlier today, a poll was released
that referred to the Democratic Party as ineffective. I've seen
other polls that has the Democratic Party, in spite of
all that Donald Trump has done, somewhere hovering around twenty
six percent favorables as a party. And then, all of
a sudden, out of New York, this new hope seemed

(06:34):
to emerge in the election victory of mister mcdonni. Donnie
calls himself a democratic socialist. For our listeners and for
those who are within the hearing range of your voice,
help us reconcile what democratic socialism is and the context

(06:55):
that it provides for our faith.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
No, thank you. That's a very good question. You know,
when I've lectured gatherings of preachers, for instance, I always
ask them, why do you think Martin Luther King was
a democratic socialist? Uh, this great hero of the of
the Gospel and civil rights. And that's because democratic socialism

(07:21):
is much more tuned with the with the Biblical witness
and Biblical values and capitalism is democratic socialism is essentially Uh,
it is about making the society more just for everyone. U.
Like Kings said, we must have a better distribution of
of wealth for all people. And that's what democratic socialism is.

(07:42):
And what's interesting is that democratic socialism is democratic. It
means it's it's not authoritarian. It's not about telling people
what they have to do. It's about trying to craft
policies that serve the biggest common good and uh and
then ending them to be voted up or down in

(08:04):
a democratic way by the people. But the other thing
I'd say is that uh, democratic socialism is is concerned,
is really consistent in it in his heart, in this core,
with the core of the gospel. The core of the
gospel Jesus says is love your neighbor as well, love
your Lord, your God, all your heart, soul, mind, and strength,

(08:24):
and love your neighbor as yourself. The the UH. So
that means the greatest social commandment is to love your
neighbor as yourself, which means to want for your neighbor
all the great things, all the freedom, all the material goods,
all of life's goods, to want for your neighbor the
same as you want for yourself. And also that that
implies struggling for our neighbors to have the same as

(08:47):
we struggle for ourselves. And that's what democratic socialism is about.
It's a galitarian it's about wanting your neighbor to have
the same as you want for yourself. The Democratic Party
does not reflect that in its public in its public image.
In fact, it's image is not clear anymore, in my opinion,

(09:11):
what it's about, it's not clear anymore. They're people like yourself,
like you know, like our brother Rafial Warnock, who are
hitting it hard, but most of them are They're just
they're just politicians. They don't seem to have any core value.
So we have to help the party to articulate, to embrace,
to identify and articulate a core value. And I'd say,

(09:35):
in this moment, when religion is is the foremost terraign
of political contestation, that core should be. And it might
sound sound, you know, simplistic or corny to some folk,
but in religious terms, that core is want for your
neighbor what you want for yourself, And in that or

(09:55):
some form of that, I think will resonate a lot
more than what we're hearing these days from them your friends,
which I don't know even though what that is anymore.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
I think that's I think that's very very clear, and
I'm glad you brought that to the forefront. Let me
just raise this question for you. When you say you
want for your neighbor, which Jesus obviously said, love your
neighbor as yourself. By that you mean health care of
equal high quality for everybody. By that you mean, I

(10:25):
assume an equal high quality public education for everybody, given
that the world that we live in is created by
the Creator, that we have a right to breathe clean
fresh air, right to a clean, safe and sustainable environment
for all three hundred and fifty million Americans.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
For everybody. Yes, yes, you.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Think about democratic socialism, you're also saying that women in
our society who make fifty or sixty cents to the
dollar of what men make, but they cannot afford bread cheaper,
they cannot pay rent cheaper, they cannot go to college cheaper,
they deserve equality under law. And in the context of

(11:11):
it being in our democracy, It's not Marxist Leninism. We're
talking about a democratic core value that undergirds the wealthiest
nation in the history of the world that is also
experiencing the greatest income disparities and inequalities in the history
of the earth as well.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Wow, I love the way you put that. I wish
I had been that articulate with it, and that's why
we need you and people like you on the lawmaking side. Again, No, absolutely,
that's exactly what it means. And it also and when
we look at it in religious terms and in terms
of the church, it means that there is a responsibility

(11:54):
for us to struggle for that kind of society. And
it means it's responsibility for preachers to struggle for that.
And those who don't, I will would say, uh, they
are practiced to some they're they're they're guilty to some
degree of of ministerial malpractice. Uh, this is core to

(12:14):
what we must be must be about, and so we
have to articulate that and let people know that's what know,
what that's about. And that's why Mam Donnie is is
exciting people because he's articulated a value. Now he's called
democratic socialism, but like King King said, call whatever you like,
but you know, it's it's got to be about being
free now, about being equal, having equal rights and equal distribution.

(12:39):
But man Donnie was bold enough to call it what
it is like King did. So he's getting some pushback
because of the term democratic socialism, but the concept itself
is what the people are embracing, and they're excited, excited
by you know, they're tired of Eric Adams. I don't
care that he's black. He's corrupt and you know in

(13:00):
these he does clouege things that are that just ridiculous.
And Cromo, we know what Croomo's like. He's corrupt and
he's you know, he's a predator on women, at least
as what it appears. Solem Donnie presenting something fresh, fresh value.
Now that's what our party needs. I mean, don't you
think I mean to be clear, he's saying this is

(13:23):
what I am about and what I'm looking to do.
I might not be able to do it, but this
is my ideal and this is what our party needs.
The Demo. I shouldn't say our party because I'm stepping
back for a moment, but that's what the Democratic Party needs.
You know.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
One of the things that doctor Hendrix I tried to
advance when I was in Congress in my book two
thousand and one called a more Perfect Union advancing New
American Rights was having grown up and studied at Chicago
Theological Seminary with doctor Michael Eric Dyson and having met
doctor Cornell West for the first time while I was

(14:02):
at Chicago Theological Seminary, I pushed back, even though I
was a great student of Michael Harrington. I pushed back,
for political and maybe even obvious reasons, on the concept
of the term King says, call it whatever you'd like.
I pushed back on the idea of democratic socialism because

(14:23):
I gauged that it's reaction by other people, even though
I see it and understand it to be a core
Christian value. But for some reason or another, the lingering
thinking from the Cold War and from the Korean Conflict
and the Vietnamese conflict and decades and decades of fighting
the Russians and Ronald Reagan's language that this idea of

(14:46):
socialism in the context of America's rugged individualism and capitalism
was difficult to sell. So what the late Watkins and
I did was we argued that these core values, in
order to be accepted in our society, ought be constitutional rights,
and therefore I advocated for them as amendments to the

(15:10):
Constitution of the United States. No one can call me
un American, no one can call me unpatriotic. I believe
everyone should enjoy the constitutional right to health care of
equal high quality. If it's health care for Bill Gates
or Mark Zuckerberg or eli Us at the highest quality,

(15:32):
then it should be the same high quality health care
for mominem for pooking them whenever happens to them in
their neighborhoods. It ought be available to them, because I
don't judge their lives any different than I judge these
American lives. So the language of the marketing of democratic socialism,

(15:52):
why its value may be Christian, It's marketing Doctor Hendrix
for me at least false and creates a reaction on
the other side that leads to debate ad infinite.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
No, absolutely, I think I think you're right. You know,
I said that mc donnie was you know, he boldly
declared he's democratic socialists. I think into strategic terms, you know,
we don't need you know, we don't need that name.
I mean democratic socialism. I mean the values of it
are timeless, right, And so what what when I heard

(16:29):
you uh talking about was pushing the values uh you know,
using political uh political uh strategy, political policies two uh
to bring those values to the for American people. I
think are absolutely right. But that's something that is not

(16:54):
that's just not being done. And in America today, I
think it's important to link those values to the biblical witness,
since everybody claims that they're serving, that they're serving the Gospel.
You know, to to be able to explain something as basic,
first help Christian see that on the social level, love

(17:14):
your neighbor as yourself is the foremost social commandment by Jesus.
And then to explain to them that it means what
you're talking about, I think will go very a very
very long way. I like what you're what you're talking about,
constitutional amendments and all that, And I don't want to
forgive me. I'm not pandering. But that's why it's so

(17:35):
important to have people like you in Congress who understand
these things. We have a lot of these folks who
are elected. They don't They don't read enough, they don't
understand political theory enough. All they understand is politics. So
so I commend you what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
You know, I want to add this that when I
think Jesus makes this commandment to love your neighbor as yourself,
we see it as a as an edict if you will,
a commandment obviously from the Gospels themselves and from the
word of Jesus himself, from the mouth of Jesus himself.
But I don't think we see the economic plan or
policy that it also represents. We see I love my

(18:15):
neighbors myself as maybe helping an older lady across the street,
or cutting our neighbors grass or taking their garbage out.
No no, no, no no. It also means, hey, the
guy next door needs care, and the way which I
provide them care is I pay taxes into the system
and home care ought be available to them. And it

(18:36):
is also a way of me loving my neighbor as myself,
and I feel good about it. I feel good about
a public school in my community being like a public
school in a more affluent community, because these are the
children of my neighbor. And maybe the average American probably

(18:57):
doesn't travel more than sixty miles past their home in
a lifetime, but for those of us who do, we
see schools with Olympic sized swimming pools. We see Olympic
athletes in public schools being trained at young ages. But
by the time we get, you know, to our community,
we're just so used to inferior schools and no public

(19:20):
tax right.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
What you're saying, I mean when you think about love
your neighbor as yourself, think about and we think about it,
it's really an economic and political eat it. It's it's
about rights and it's about uh, it's about goods. It's
about material uh, material goods. It's about having enough to eat,
it's about having a decent life. And you know, we
don't have to articulate in biblical terms and it's only uh,

(19:49):
but you know, but you're right, it is an it's
economic and it's political. I've written about it that way.
This is if we if our economic system was based
on on a galitarianism, everybody having the right to be
all right, you know, recognizing everybody's created in the image

(20:09):
of God, so that everyone has uh should have the
same opportunities to eat of the fruit of the tree
of life. That's a whole nother thing. If we look
at our politics that way, in terms of rights, in
terms of freedom, everybody having access to the same rights
and freedom. That's revolutionary, but it's basic and that's what

(20:29):
society is supposed to be about. But of course we
know it was never built on on on on those uh,
on those kinds of principles and That's what's what's difficult
for us, because America was never meant to be a just,
a fully just society. And that's so you talk about
the Constitution, man, The Constitution is a hard road to hope.

(20:50):
We talk about total galitarian society.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
You're listening to Moving Mountain mondays on the Jesse Jackson
Junior Show on KBLE Talk fifteen eighty. I'm Jesse Jackson Junior.
When we come board more with one of the greatest
minds of our era, doctor Aubery Hendrix. When we come
forward show Key Blad special guest is not doctor Abery Hendrix.

(21:15):
Hendrix's award winning book The Politics of Jesus, Rediscovering the
true revolutionary nature of Jesus's teaching and how they have
been corrupted, was declared essential reading for Americans by The
Washington Post. Social commentator Michael Eric Dyson proclaimed it an
instant classic that immediately thrust Hendrix into the front ranks

(21:36):
of American religious thinkers. The Politics of Jesus was the
featured subject of the ninety minute c SPAN special hosted
by the Center for American Progress, Class Politics, and Christianity.
The tenth anniversary of its publication was acknowledged at a
major twenty sixteen panel at the American Academy of Religion
and its annual Convention in San Antonio, Texas. Governor Howard Dane,

(21:57):
former chairman of the Democratic National Committee, has called the
book The Universe Bends Towards Justice, Radical reflections on the Bible,
the Church, and the Body politic, a tour day force.
Doctor Hendrix, Welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
I'm Glen be back Glant Bee back Man. Make this
point for again mentioned love your neighbors as yourself. I
think it's important to note that every major religion and
philosophical tradition has some form of that of of of
of of that ethic love your neighbor as yourself. So

(22:32):
it's not you know, just uh, it's not just a
Christian ethic that we try to force on the nation. No,
it's that's that's a university recognized notion. The other thing
is that justice is the most foundational Biblical ethic. And
in order to have real justice, and we talk about

(22:54):
justice in the society, it has to be a galutear
and we have to want for our neighbors what we want.
I just want to mention.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
That I'm glad, I'm glad, I'm glad you did I'm
glad you didn't. I just want to press I want
to press it a little bit further with you. Kamala.
Harris said, to this generation, you're not a coconut that
just dropped out of a tree and you're here. You're
part of a history and a tradition. And given that

(23:22):
Jesus' ministry was for three years between age thirty and
thirty three, he found himself tragically on a cross. He studied,
He studied every religious and moral value and system before
he offered his own interpretation and arrived at love your

(23:42):
neighbor as yourself, therefore drawing from the various religious traditions
that you're suggesting as fundamental to any civilized society.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah. Yeah. He drew on the singing in Leviticus, repurposed
it and gave it a more universal meaning. You're you're right,
and there's you know. There seems to be some evidence
that he did study elsewhere, not just Egypt, but some
say as far away as the bet you know, during
those eighteen missing years of the Bible. But be that

(24:15):
as as it may, You're right. His message if you
take all the doctrinal stuff away, it's a universal message,
it's an ethical message. Jesus was an ethical teacher more
than anything else. He taught people how to live in
a just and loving way. And I think that's what
we have to distress in our stress, in our public witness.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Doctor Hendrick, let me if I can pivot to Howard
Thurman for a moment from your perspective, and given that
so much of your work really really builds upon Howard Thurman,
and it's hard to improve upon Howard Thurman. That if
there ever was a work that does uniquely, it is
the work that you have prayed over, that you've thought

(24:58):
about and given great reflection to, and that is must reading,
according to the Washington Post for all Americans. My question
for you is is this what would Howard Thermonn say
today about a nation of people whose backs are against
the wall?

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah? So interesting. Howard Thurn wrote, Uh, Jesus and the Disinherited,
which which was really it presupposed liberation Theolot theology, and
certainly for us biblical scholars, it was way ahead of
what only started for us, I guess in the seventies

(25:37):
or so, you know, he was. He recognized that jesus
message was about supporting and freeing and providing for the marginalized,
those disinherited by society. But Howard what would stress the

(26:01):
importance of love though a term that's never used by
the right wing ever. Yeah, and uh for the progressive
Christian side, it's it's mostly used in a sentimental way.
But you know, he would stress that we have to
really struggle to have a loving society. I think, you know,

(26:21):
and if you love someone loves something, you you want
them to to behole, you want them to be healthy.
So I also I think that Howard Thurmann would stress
something that uh is missing in in this nation and
certainly missing in most of the church, and that is
a focus on interiority, on on on dealing with what

(26:47):
Paul calls the christ within or or or inner spirituality,
which you know, UH includes you know, meditation and quietude. Uh,
you know, like Jesus, like Jesus' model in Luke four
and one following where he went out and the desert

(27:07):
by himself and he prepared himself, you know, through solitude,
through through through fasting, through through thirst, through meditation, through contemplation,
through struggle, against all temptations. Only after that could he
stand up and say, in four eighteen, the spirit of
the Lord is upon me because he's in ordered me
to preach good news to the poor. You know. So

(27:30):
because he he did that inner, that inner work, that
spiritual ministrations, and I think Howard Thermann, I know he
would be stressing that that we need to get away
from all this out external titillation stuff and all this
false you know, speaking in tongues and thish, and this

(27:52):
new fad of everybody you know, supposedly doing the holy dance.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't
know exactly what's holy about it. It doesn't transform anything
in this world. I think he would want us to
really be substantively concerned with transforming ourselves and our society

(28:12):
from within, even while we dealt with all the contradictions
from without, and that, of course, we see almost nowhere
in this society.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
There is a I know that we have about two
minutes left in this particular segment, and we have another
segment after this, and hopefully you'll stay with us with
doctor Teresa Horde Owens for part of the program and
then into the next hour. I do want to ask
this question, however, about the need for suffering leadership, leadership
that has the capacity to suffer, because obviously, once the

(28:43):
big bad ugly bill becomes the law after the midterms,
there's going to be a lot of pain in our community.
And I have this sneaking suspicion that one of the
reasons the polling numbers of the Democrats is so low
is that they're speaking to people at the level of
scholarship and philosophy, but they are truly not feeling the

(29:04):
pain of people. It's almost as if our leaders are
without suffering. They've got all kinds of ideas, they're all
given speeches, they're all doing podcasts, but no one is suffering.
And doctor King caught us. I think that suffering was
a factor in the quality and caliber of his leadership.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I'd like to add the term
sacrifice to that. You know, a few people willingly submit
to just suffering, but you have to be willing to
put the cells on the line, you know. And I've
wondered about that, you know, we have I me know,
I've wondered about the courage of of of democratic well,

(29:47):
I say democratic senators, but those who pose anyone who
poses the evil of the of the Trump fascism. I mean,
I'm wondering why they're not, you know, sitting in know
while they're not disrupting. I mean, why we're not. Why
are we not seeing folks who are really whose actions

(30:08):
are commissured with the with the with the terror of
the threat that we're dealing with. So no, you know,
we need folk like like doctor King, like your father,
like others who you know and and and I always
love uh ct Vivian, you know, willingness. We need folks
who are willing to put themselves out there, not looking

(30:28):
to be hurt, but who are so engaged and so
uh uh uh taken by their commitment to justice that
they're willing to take a chance. And we don't see
anything like that. That's one thing I respect about Mamzani.
He has not backed off, uh when he's been threatened.

(30:51):
I mean, when everybody on the mayoral candidates was saying, well,
my first trip will be to Israel, and you know,
like they ain't going to insiem man. But man Donnie
was honest. He said, no, my job is here. But
when I but our politicians are just they're not statesmen.
They're politicians. I'm just thinking that they're they're so afraid

(31:15):
of losing their jobs and their perks. As you know,
there are all kinds of perks being senators and Congress.
You know, we're gonna come.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
We're gonna come right back to that to have this break.
This is Jesse Jackson Junior on KBLA Talk fifteen Doctor
Obie Hendricks Mountain Days. I'm Jesse Jackson Junior to Jesse
Jackson Junior show on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. Our very
special guest is the world renowned biblical scholar doctor Aubrie Hendrix.
Doctor Hendrick. During the break, I looked at our first
Facebook page, UH to find out why my video was

(31:45):
being blocked in two different locations. I touched upon it
and it said I'm being blocked in Belarus and Russia.
Like I really give a give a hoot anyway, Doctor Hendrix,
we are not on in Belarus and Russia, but the
rest of the world everywhere disappointed. I know, right, Doctor Hendricks.

(32:07):
Let me pivot to the domestic political scene and what
it represents for our nation's spiritual energy and growth. In
this hour, so much emanates from the very top I'd
like to use the term the four Carpenters or the
Timbers that Abraham Lincoln referred to in the House Divided
speech where he talked about how Roger, Tawny and James

(32:32):
and Stevens had agreed upon a common plan, but clearly
he could not prove a conspiracy. But when they all
came together, the Supreme Court, the Presidency, the Congress of
the United States, and now the governors seemed to be
conspiring against Well, doctor Hendrix, if my mind is just
about everything you've ever.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Fought for, Yeah, yeah, it's it's true. And that's why
decry this as an onslaught of systematic evil that is
no less dangerous and intent than Nazi Germany. Well, it's

(33:13):
less dangerous because uh Trump apparently he's not looking to
uh to exterminate a lot of American citizens, but looking
to remove so many people of color nonetheless and subjugate
the rest of us, removing the rights that that people

(33:34):
have died for, rights that we have have had over century.
All of that, I think I lost the thread of
of your question. I got a little carried away there.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Oh no, no, not a problem. The the basic concern
that I raised was that the focus of the administration
seems to be undermining everything.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
Sir, oh, yes, yes, that's important that you believe in. Well, no, absolutely,
it's it's it's totally against uh, against justice. It's it's
against it's against right, against everything right. I mean, it
is evil. It's evil in that it purposely UH hurts

(34:15):
and destroys innocent people, innocent. But there's nothing more evil
than purposely hurting innocent people, destroying them, trying to hide
uh our history from our children, outlawing, outlawing black history
from black black children, UH, forcing twelve year old rap

(34:41):
visions to to carry UH children to term. And they
care more about the unborn than they do about the
already born. They don't give a damn about the people
struggling in this society. This is as evil as it gets.
And you know, and I think I can speak for
for many people. We couldn't imagined just a few years

(35:03):
ago that this would happen in America. We thought we
were special. Well we're not special. And if we're not careful,
in a few years, much less a decade, we are
going we will no longer be have any vestige of democracy.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Doctor Hendrick do you see any hope on the political horizon. Uh.
I've listened carefully to the prospective Democratic candidates and if
you will, alternative candidates who seek a new era after
Donald Trump. It just doesn't seem like Humpty dumpty is
going to be able to put be put back together again.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
Yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, I think
we need a new movement. I think that people like uh,
well not just like Mondombe, but the kind of sentiment
that is causing people to support folks like that, Donnie.
I think, uh, we're just going to have to work

(36:05):
to make to build a new kind of movement, to
articulate a different kind of political uh political vision and
uh and to try, you know, to you know, to
broaden that. And we have to elect officials like yourself
who are articulate and who are can articulate what justice

(36:28):
means and who are dedicated uh to fighting for it.
But brother, I don't know, Man, We're losing right now.
We are losing. And I don't know. I mean, you
have someone like Gavin Newsome, I don't know. I mean,
he's you know, I mean, to me, he's means not perfect.
I don't even look I don't know who I'd want

(36:50):
to run against these people. I think our greatest hope
is that in political terms, Trump is destroyed, somehow discreditied.
People come to see his lives, come to see that
he was engaged in pedophilia. Maybe that'll bring him down.
Then we have to deal with Vance, who is just

(37:11):
as evil. Trump Ism is going to rule this country
for a while. It looks like unless we do something
very different. But we have to remember that's how in
the sixties folk really arose, Radicals of rose to fight things,
and there was a lot of death. But I think
there's going to be a radical movie. There's got to

(37:33):
be a real reaction to this, and I'm afraid it's
going to have to include include violence. Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
I'm I'm struck by that conclusion that that almost everything
I've ever been taught and everything I've ever prayed for,
is that violence would never be a resort, but the
conditions could reach, could reach, And we've seen evidence of

(38:03):
it in even a story that's on CNN right now
about an Afghan man who helped American soldiers in Afghanistan,
and he was I guess not long ago killed in Texas.
The man who killed him has not been arrested, but

(38:24):
it seems to be because he was a foreigner. And
now Green Berets whose lives he's saved are now stepping
forward saying, wait a minute, we are here today because
this man helped us dismantle bombs in Afghanistan, and that
some elements of this movement are going too far. And

(38:46):
I refuse to accept that it is the radical left
that you know, sees a different constitutional value, is solely responsible.
Some of this requires the kind of leadership at the
very top of our nation that we have that we
have not seen. Doctor Hendrick. We have about two more
minutes left in this portion of our program. Of course

(39:07):
you'll be with us with doctor Teresa Horde Owens in
part of the next hour, but in these two minutes,
could you give us a word of hope.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
Well, the hope I see is that this younger generation
UH is open to UH to a new vision. You know,
when you have generation that's open to socialism the majority
of them, according to polls, it's not it's that's very hopeful,
not just in terms of socialis but socialism, but the

(39:36):
fact that they're willing to really to question things as
they are. That's my that's my hope. I don't have
a lot of hope that the churches are going to
make a difference though that that though they should. I
don't have a lot of hope that the Democratic Party
is going to make a big difference. Tell us push,
but I'm hoping that young people will start a new movement.

(39:58):
We'll get more Bob getting more and more horrified by
what they see like we did in the sixties, and
start pushing full and then, you know, I'm very hopeful
people like like Raphael Warner, he's starting to speak out
more and more people like him. We need more on that.
Even Corey Bookersport is getting out there. And we get

(40:21):
more people like you in office, you know, we might
have a chance.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
That's very kind of you. I'm Jesse Jackson Junior. Been
listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. This is moving
Mountain Mondays. When we come forward, doctor Teresa hord Owens
will be our host, and Reverend doctor Aubrey Hendrix will
be joining us in that conversation when we come forward.
Welcome forward on Mondays on the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
On Jesse Jackson Junior on KBLA Talk fifteen to eighty.

(40:46):
In this hour, our very special host and regular host,
Teresa hord Owens is the President and General Minister of
the Disciples of Christ in Canada and the US. Reverend
Teresa hord Owens joins our show in this particularly special
hour because one of the great biblical scholars of our time,
doctor Aubrey Hendricks, is our very special guest. Doctor Owens,

(41:08):
welcome forward to your show, The Faith Not the Fall.
How are you this one afternoon.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
I'm doing well, doing well, thoroughly enjoyed hearing the conversation
between you and doctor Hendrick, somebody whose work I've read
and studied and admire a great deal. So it's exciting
to join this conversation doctor Hendrick, because not.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Well, that's as long as I would love for him
to be. But doctor Owens, I would love for you
to engage him in the segment of our show.

Speaker 4 (41:36):
You know, I'm just kind of taking some notes.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
My own work is focused on and I lead just
for context, Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, his mainline denomination
predominantly white, eighty percent white, ten percent Black, six seven
percent Hispanic, and maybe two to three percent Asian.

Speaker 4 (41:53):
Pacific islander.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
It considers itself in spaces to be more progressive. But
two points that you made in terms of loving your
neighbor as yourself as being the great social commandment, the
great social rule that should be governing our lives and

(42:17):
how we respond, and the great ethic by which we
should live our lives. And you said, my dad's a
retired after American studies professor, taught at Knox College for
over thirty years.

Speaker 4 (42:27):
And you said people don't read enough read You said
people don't read enough.

Speaker 3 (42:34):
Oh, yes, I think this is true in my context,
you know, coming out of a Black church tradition. It's
one thing that in a mainline space that I've often
people will assume that you are conservative simply because you
are promoting an engagement with the text, be it critical
or otherwise. I'm never promoting a dogmatic or a purely

(42:58):
a doctrinal engagement, but one.

Speaker 4 (43:01):
But we don't know our text, we don't know our history.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
We're not paying attention to the things that are going
on in the world, so we either air I think
on the side of personal piety being the only thing
that matters, and the church needs to stay out of
these particular issues or we haven't. And I lead some
of these folks. Somebody called them justice loving social activist

(43:26):
atheists who understand the right thing to do, but in
their faith journey have not been able to really understand
and make the connection that the power that we have
in that moment is because it is this ethic not
only of Jesus, but every major our religious tradition has
something akin to loving your neighbor or treating others as

(43:49):
you would treat So what really resonated me was this
insistence number one, that we don't read enough, we don't
know enough in order to be able to artigue of
these things, and also not being afraid to call what's
going on evil. We have a lot of church folks
that don't want to use that word right. We don't
want to, We don't want to stand in judgment to

(44:12):
those things. And I think the power of an ethical
and faith witness is to name a thing.

Speaker 4 (44:18):
You can't fix a thing unless you name a thing.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
So so those two things that I think have stood out,
And just so you know, I'm my own writing is
just about this this core ethic of love and those
two things I say, I have a two point platform, uh,
spiritual practice, and biblical literacy. From those things come all
of the work that we need to do UH as
both citizens of the United States and people of faith,

(44:45):
particularly with a Christian ethic. But I again would argue
that there isn't a single religious tradition that doesn't advocate
that you know the text, but that you also are
operating in a in an ethic that says what you
want for your neighbor is also what you want for yourself.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Can I just let me add this, because I know
we're going to have doctor Hendrix for just a few
more minutes, but oh, you're you're You're welcome to hang
in here with us all you like, But let me
just share with you that there was a particular compelling
part of the politics of Jesus, which has a thousand
compelling parts in it. Uh, there was one part, if

(45:22):
I remember correctly, where doctor Hendrix said, we're going to
have to call this demon by its name. Now, we're
gonna have to give it a title. We're gonna have
to paint some horns on it. We're going to have
to visualize what this thing is not just going to
keep calling it politics today, Doctor Hendrix, you called it
by name. You said, it's evil.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
It's evil, I mean, and we have to we have
to define what we mean by you know. But it's
not enough just enough to say, well, this is evil. No,
it's evil because it hurts innocent people. It does not
respect the integrity of human beings and all image God.
I mean, we have to say that. And what Jesus

(46:04):
did was interesting. He in in Mark five he made
it clear he had the h he had the demon
reveal itself for what it is. It was evil, it
was the demon was legion, the Roman legions. That was
what messed the people up. But we're not really doing that.

(46:26):
And you know, Reverend Oles what but and I know
we we we share this, this focus on entertainment and
jumping up and down and all around and all us,
and this is supposed to be the gospel. It's killing
Our people are dying, well, Negro preachers are running around

(46:46):
and being entertainers and this is this is sad and
we have to call that evil out. Also these lazy
and I mean, look, I'm ordained, and I have a
lot of goods, are wonderful, wonderful, past is seriously, but
you know some of them are just lazy. They don't read,
like you're saying, they don't read. How can you say

(47:08):
that you are supposed to be the shepherd of the
sheep and you don't you don't even know what you
don't even take time to really understand what what forces
are destroying the sheep's peace of mind? And there they're
the health and their uh and their security, you know. So,
I mean, we're in a big fight and I'm so

(47:31):
glad to hear what what what what you're saying? Uh?
And interesting enough is the white denominations not, of course,
the crystal fascist white denominations that are doing most of
the studying articulating unfortunately, that are articulating the kind of
things that have to be articulated. Man, I'm sorry, I can.

Speaker 4 (47:57):
I'm with you, doctor Hendricks, I'm with you all the
way on that.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
Jesse Jackson Junior listening to Moving Mountain mud Mondays with
Reverend Doctor Teresa Horde Owens. Our very special guest is
none other than doctor Aubrey Hendricks. When we come forward
more on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty on The Jesse Jackson
Junior Show, Junior Welcome forward, The Jesse Jackson Junior show
Movieton Mondays, where a very special guest, Reverend doctor Teresa

(48:21):
hord Owens is our regular host on Moving Mountain Mondays,
the Faith not to Fall, and we have been blessed
with one of the nation's leading biblical scholars, doctor Aubery Hendricks.
Doctor Teresa hort Owens is the President and General Minister
of the Disciples of Christ in Canada and the United States.
She joins our show on more than Christian experience her

(48:45):
her new book Staying at the Table, scheduled to be
released this past July twelfth, which serves as a push
for all believers to shun the hypocrisy that critics may
assign to the church in exchange for a unity born
from love, vision to talk, to serve, to work together,
to fight for the cause of Jesus. Doctor Owens, welcome

(49:06):
forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show on your show.

Speaker 4 (49:09):
Oh thank you, Congressman.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
It's always good to be with you, and always every
week there's something exciting happening in this conversation.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
And our very special guest is none other than doctor
Ober Hendrix. Doctor Ober Hendrix is the author of a
number of books that include the politics of Jesus, the
arc of justice, Bens towards justice, Christians against Christianity. So
many wonderful works, but both of you together in this moment,

(49:42):
at least for me, I consider this to be one
of the best shows I've ever done. Both of you
are reframing Christian witness in the era of Donald Trump,
and I can't think of a more propitious moment to
reframe Christian witness, Doctor Owens than this moment, because we
have to reflect upon what our faith has become and

(50:03):
whether or not we are true activists in it. I
heard Cornell West say earlier today, don't forget about the Cross.
Don't forget about the Cross, that there is some sacrifice,
that there is potentially, as doctor Hendrick suggests, some death
that may be part of this process before we can
resurrect ourselves. Doctor Owens, you know.

Speaker 3 (50:25):
I think in the American context and in my work,
you know, both internationally. As you know, I was just
in South Africa about a month ago with the World
Council of Churches in European, South American and African Christians
asking me about what's going on in the United States.
And I always tell people you cannot look at the

(50:45):
United States without understanding its history of colonialism and racism,
and that extends, and that Christianity has been a tool
of this colonial nature since before Columbus stumbled across he thought.

Speaker 4 (51:02):
Was India. And it's still guides how we talk.

Speaker 3 (51:06):
Unless we change this narrative, we are still you know,
I talk about staying at the table. This is you know,
if we don't unpack the colonialism that's tied to this
sense of love and unity, we will think, oh, I'm
letting you in. But what you're not saying is you're
letting me into a situation that you still control. So

(51:26):
once we recognize that the faith that we practice is
not your institution or my institution, it's not my table,
it's the table of the Lord, which Jesus disrupts systems.
Jesus disrupts in the very active establishing the Lord's Supper,
disrupts those systems and creates a new covenant, a new

(51:49):
egalitarian we've used that word, a playing field for all,
and one that is not dependent on any one of
us deciding what is right, what is best, what is legitimate.
Unity can't just be this situation where we're falling into
some sort of Eurocentric norm or even a Christian norm.

(52:10):
It has to value the humanity that God has created
in all of us, recognizing we each are enough, and
that no one of us gets to tell the other
of us that we're not included in this story, in
this profound need and everybody needs to eat. That's my
evangelism platform.

Speaker 4 (52:29):
Jesus. I want you to know that this Jesus wants.

Speaker 3 (52:31):
You to eat, to have education, to have healthcare, to
have a safe, affordable place to live. But we've got
to always unpack on the American context that history of
colonialism and racism, or we're just papering over cracks in
the wall and we're not really shifting the narrative as
it needs.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
To shift, Doctor Hendrix. Doctor King reportedly said to Harry
Belafonte in one of his last communications that a great
level of disappointment that I feel like I have asked
my people to integrate. And I think I heard doctor
Teresa hard Owen's uh touch upon it integrate into a

(53:10):
into a burning house?

Speaker 2 (53:12):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, and uh yeah. And what I
also heard implied in her very important comments that we
have to talk about systemic change. You know you're right,
I mean it's not just insinuating ourselves better into a

(53:33):
into an unjust system. And you know, Jesus pointed to
that and look for for eighteen so that the spirit
of the Lord has annoyed me to bring good news
to the poor, which is about systemic change. I mean,
it's it's not you know, the prosperity anti gospel, where
you know, some folks become rich and others still say poor.
It's that's about systemic change. And that's something that is

(53:56):
not being talked about enough. And a lot of this
because of capitalists, a gemony which says that capitalism is
natural and that you know that there's no better system,
which you know, so many politicians and economic commentators uh
have said it's propagandistic, you know, and and you know,

(54:18):
we don't know what a new system would be, but
we don't need to know. We know there needs to
be a new system. But but lastly, but I also
liked about uh do the Hordes comment is that you know,
Jesus message is basically an ethical message, and we can

(54:40):
stress that the ethics of that message throughout the world
without talking about any doctrines at all, offending anyone at all.
That's well when you talked about, you know, the atheists
for justice. You know, Jesus message is is because he
was an ethical teacher of ethics. It's all all about justice.

(55:01):
It's all about building a new kind of world, a
world based on on on love and total respect for
each person's humanity and integrity, and an egalitarian society. And
and and you know, and that's one of the problems
with with our with our churches and with Christianity these days,

(55:24):
creatures will go on for days about without the vision
of people will perish and all of that. And they
come up with a vision for building, you know, a
new expensive church. But the right wing showed us what
vision is when they articulated Project twenty twenty five. That
is their vision for the kind of society we want. Well,

(55:46):
what kind of vision are we articulating in the church.
And you know, we need to have our own Project
twenty twenty six, the twenty seven twenty eight saying what
kind of educational system we want, what kind of little
policies we want on down the line, and also and
and be open to to to some vision of socialism

(56:08):
or some other kind of economic approach that is uh
that is based on on on what's best for humanity
rather than for you know, for the few.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
One of the reasons I argued for constitutional rights in
a more perfect union nine of them is one They're
not easy to attain. They're so difficult to attain that
it requires two thirds of the Congress and three quarters
of the States to approve them. If we agree that
that's the value. And on the spiritual side to which
I pose this question to both of you, Gina, who

(56:40):
recently graduated from Princeton Theological Seminary, the executive producer and
the creator of our program, she says that the Christianity
of Liberation theology is a Christianity doctor Hendrix, doctor owens
that adds, it adds, it adds something to the least
of these. The Christianity of the evangelicals seems to be

(57:04):
taking away. It seems to be a subtraction. No more
of this for you unless you do this, No more
of this for you unless you do that. No medicaid
unless the Secretary of Agriculture is now saying, unless you're
willing to.

Speaker 5 (57:18):
Replace illegal immigrants in a field picking tomatoes, lettuce, and tobacco.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
Now, that is not adding to their lives. It is
actually creating a new form of slavery by taking away
from their lives in exchange for basic level of heating, instance.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Feeling, death, feeling. And you're right about slavery. I mean
they're going to so we're going to see hidened criminalization
and we're going to see uh more and more convicted
people out in the fields working and right, it's going
to be slavery by another name. And that is part
of their vision. They know what they are doing and

(58:06):
their assault on education and all of that. They're trying
to create to expand an underclass, create a larger underclass. Uh,
that'll be akin akin to say, you know, doctor owners.
That's why it's so scary people a sense, and our
preachers aren't protecting the sheet that saying look, they need

(58:27):
to be out of there, saying look, your children might
end up working in the fields or incarcerated for something
they never did. So so uh that the privatized jail
folk can can make more profits. You know, this is
a horribly datingous time.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
And we're more concerned about you know, as you said earlier,
you know the new building we're going to build, filling
the seeds, will people watch well, people contribute to the
offering instead of focusing on those things. That this is
what is life giving, right, because we can we can
profess Jesus and still be starving. Right.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
And Jesus didn't intend it for to be there, to
stop there. My husband's a music minister. He talks about
the dangerous act of worship as the.

Speaker 4 (59:16):
Process of preparing us for battle.

Speaker 3 (59:18):
Not not the end all be all, but the way
in which we prepare ourselves for battle under a banner
of this ethical teacher that that we say we follow,
and so any lens that we have on anything that's
you know, uh, inclusive versus exclusive. Anytime anyone is using

(59:41):
a lens of interpretation on scripture, anything else really theologically
that's exclusive. When you are trying to draw the line
to decide who's in and who's out, then you're yielding
yourself and your your power to something else that has
more to do with you and and a form of
institutional power than it has to do with the real

(01:00:03):
good news that Jesus came to proclaim. There can be
a no allowing. John Lewis says in his and Walking
with the Wind, none of us has the right to
ignore the spark of divinity that's in each human person.
None of us has the right to say that you
are not worth having what I have. None of us
has the right to do that. And for me, it's

(01:00:25):
just that basic. And if your Christianity isn't leading you
down that path, then what subscriptions say you have a
form of godliness. You don't have the real thing. It's
a form, and you're just playing with us, You're playing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
I just want to add to that that the fact
went right down doctor Teresa Horde Owens's litany. No one
wants to be crucified. No one wants to be in
a fiery furnace. No one wants to step up and
throw a rock upside the head of Goliath. I mean,
you go right down every biblical character that is preached
about on Sunday morning, and no one wants to be
that guy that lady. No one wants to be facing

(01:01:02):
the crowd with rocks potentially thrown at them because of
their criminal offense. No one wants to accept the burden
of what it means to be a Biblical character in
the present. They kind of look at the book. They
read it as some kind of nonfiction account of something
that's going on in their heads. But it doesn't, Doctor Hendrix,

(01:01:23):
lead to a beating when you cross the celiment to
the Edmund thatttis bridge. It doesn't lead to Jimmy Lee
Jackson's sacrifice. It doesn't lead to almost James Orange's lynching
in Marion, Alabama. It does not lead to four students
sitting in at a lunch counter in Greensboro, North Carolina,
on February first, nineteen sixty. I mean, it doesn't lead

(01:01:44):
to imtel. Everyone has chosen a comfortable way out of
what is obvious. We're waiting for someone else to die
for us, but we ain't trying to die.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well you know, you know I I
think I've shared this with you before. For I grew
up in the Black cultural nationalist movement New New Jersey.
Were married Baraka from the time I was in my
mid teens, and uh, you know, we it was an
extraordinary experience because uh, by.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
The way, his daughter is on k b l A.
His daughter on k b l A six to nine
every morning, Monday through Friday on k b l A
Talk fifteen eighty. I'm sorry, doctor, and that did not
mean to catch off. But so one.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
Thing that we was that that that was so important.
I mean that I and there was that one of
these young people. We were willing to die for what
we believed in. But that is a function of being young.

Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Young people have the energy, but they also don't know
what living is and and they have and they have
that bravery. I had no idea what was what was
ahead be in life. What I thought I'd do is
die and get on a poster. Uh, Like, what's that
young brother from the the Black Tamps that was on

(01:03:01):
the poster? Yeah, you know, no, it was really young brother. Anyway,
So doc, I got the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
I got a post for station identification of Jesse Jackson Junior.
This is the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. We're moving Mountain
Mondays with Teresa hort Owens on k BLA Talk fifte eighty.
When we come forward more with doctor ober Hendrix and
Teresa horde Owens. I'm Jesse Jackson moving Mountain Mondays, where
our very special presenter guest host is always the President

(01:03:40):
and General Minister of the Disciples of Christ in Canada
and the US Reverend doctor Teresa Horte Owens. She is
the author of a brand new book called Staying at
the Table, which serves as a push for all believers
to shun the hypocrisy that critics may assign to the
church in exchange for a unity born from love of vision,

(01:04:00):
to talk, to serve, to work together, to fight for
the cause of Jesus of Nazareth. And we are also
blessed to have in our presence a lifelong social activist,
one of the leading biblical scholars in the nation, if
not the world. Doctor Obrey Hendrix is our very special
guest in this hour. Welcome forward to the Teresa Hoard Owens,

(01:04:22):
the Faith not to fall part of our program, Doctor Hendricks,
welcome forward.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Yes, glad to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Doctor Hendrix. I think I cut you off just before
the break, but I do want to allow you the
opportunity to finish that thought and then turn the questioning
back over to doctor Teresa Horde Owens, because she is
such an amazing contributor to this program, bringing life and
vitality to the word, and why we should continue to
fight to stay at the Table.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
And I'm so very happy and impress being the president
of that denomination. It's a I'm quite a fan now.
I was just saying that young people. It's it's it's
a generational thing. Young people have the the energy and
uh uh and they they don't have the baggage and

(01:05:12):
the responsibilities yet of uh of generations ahead of them.
So I mean it's it's uh So I'm not gonna
be too hard on folks who are of a later
generation who aren't putting their bodies on the line like
like young people, but you know, because I'm not ready
to do that anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
You know, I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
I can't Marshal Miles anymore like I used to. You know,
I was a competitive martial artists. I wasn't wasn't a
friend of Mark. Uh mixing up now, brother, No, it's
like you know what I'm saying. So that's all I'm saying.
It's a generation and we have to support our young
people and get them more and more involved. And that's
why we need to be less doctrinaire of protecting the

(01:05:52):
church about Christianity. And that's why I like that doctor
Owen's comment about ethics, that we just can stress the
the ethical underpinnings of our message. Our message is about justice,
not just us. Everybody can relate to that. Everybody can
relate to having a fully equal, legalitarian society. And if

(01:06:14):
we would do that and stop acting, you know, being
more holy than Jesus man, you know, we just got
to use all the lingo all the time. Let's just
build a happy, healthy world for everybody and then let
folk believe what they want to believe as almost as
not destructive to anyone else.

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):
Yeah, doctor Hendrix, We've talked on this program with great
people like Ernest Krim, who's used to be a public
school teacher here in the Chicago area, and it's focused
on ensuring that a younger generations know their history. What
do you think younger generations need to know and what
do we those of us who are of a certain age.

(01:06:54):
Are there models examples we've seen where we're bringing younger
people along to both in gauge them in the fight,
but also to engage our faith in a more ethical
and authentic kind of way.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
Yeah. One thing I think is important, and this might
just be because I'm a democratic socialist, but the tradition
of Black Christian socialism from the early twentieth century, UH
is really inspiring for young people, you know, to learn about.
When I teach my students about George Washington would be this,

(01:07:32):
this preacher who was so brave, so courageous, and he
went out on the corners and he was preaching building
in egalitarian society. I think these these are important, important,
important models. I think every Maybe I'm dating myself, but
I think that every student should see CT. Vivian on

(01:07:55):
the steps of the courthouse. You know, when he can
tend he's speaking of such eloquence, and then when he's
struck and he knows still that he's still in harm's way,
he continues to stand up and speak. These things were
very very, uh, very very inspirational from me, and I
think would be for others. And also Reverend Jesse Jackson

(01:08:18):
I got to say when after he brought back, uh
flight Lieutenant Goodman from from Syria, and they're in the
Rose Garden and uh, he boguards the mic from Reagan.
You know, Reagan. They didn't want him to speak because
they didn't want to get me juiced. Reagan stiff back
and and Reverend Jackson stood up and boguard the mic.

(01:08:40):
Now that was inspiring from me. These these these are
kind of moments that our people should see. Yeah, I
told your father man thinking about that. That's like, man,
nobody has more nerve than Jesse Jackson. Nobody has more
more curves, more nerve than Jesse Jackson. These things young
people to see. And let me just say this, And

(01:09:03):
you might remember this, brother Jackson, at when I set
up an event at Columbia University to honor your your
father and uh at he and Cornelwell and uh Cornell
west In in in public dialogue and but in my
introduction when I told them some of the things that
he had done. Uh and then in this conversation with

(01:09:26):
with with with Cornell. These young people were so energized
to know that, but they didn't know it, you know,
to know that at the time Bernie Sanders was running
for president. I'm not saying his Bernie Sanders platform, other
than talking about South Africa is exactly Jesse Jackson's platform

(01:09:48):
twenty years before. These young people are are energized. So
these are the kinds of things I think we should
lift up for young people.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
Yeah, yeah, I I think when you say we don't
read enough, we don't have this sense of history. I
spent about twelve years as the Dinas students at the
University of Chicago Divinity School, and I remember having some
conversations with undergraduates maybe ten fifteen years ago, and we
were having a conversation about the role of the Black
church dealing with the HIV AIDS pandemic. And there were

(01:10:22):
some staff from Trinity United Church or Christ there and
me and some other Dwight Hopkins, who's a theologian at
the University of Chicago, happened to be my advisor. But
the young people at the time were saying, well, the
time is over from marching. You all did that, you know,
way back when, and they weren't in that. I think

(01:10:43):
this was a season of not being willing to engage.
And maybe it's not willing to be engaged in the
sacrifice or suffering, or simply dismissing the tools and the
tactics of that time and moment as though, oh, we
don't have to do that.

Speaker 4 (01:10:59):
Anymore, we don't have to fight in that same way.

Speaker 3 (01:11:02):
So without history, you know, without a memory of who
we've been, we don't even know where we need to go.
And I think that history is so important, particularly for
young black people, to understand the history of.

Speaker 4 (01:11:18):
What has been done, of what is possible.

Speaker 3 (01:11:20):
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a more
organized effective boycott than Montgomery.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
Guys. I don't let me ask you a question, doctor Orwins,
because we've got about a minute in forty five seconds before,
about forty five seconds before the break, but very very quickly.
Wasn't there a provocation in the marches, doctor Hendrix to
mention Ctvivian getting hit in.

Speaker 4 (01:11:41):
The face, not just yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
Right, there's a provocation to our non violent activism that
was in the face of oppression, that meant to draw
the hatred in our direction and not respond to it. Yeah,
I'm sorry, doctor Wins, No, I was just going to
say that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
I think that's really important. That's the response. That's why
the nonviolent response was so important. And that's why when
they didn't think and planned, they just didn't go out
and decide we're just going to march in the streets.
They trained, They even built up their own willingness to
resist being spat upon and being hit. That they trained.
They you know, they worked on that. That wasn't something

(01:12:24):
that just came naturally to them. And John Lewis talks
about it being a spiritual practice to engage in nonviolence
It's not a benign, innocent thing to do. It's a
tactic of warfare, really, but one that's grounded in a
really deep spiritual practice.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
I'm Jesse Jackson, Gie. This is k BLA Talk fifteen eighty.
When we come forward more with doctor Teresa Hordorns and
doctor Aubrey Hendricks in our final segment. This has been
very rich. When we come forward, that's junior show on
KBLA Talk fifteen tomorrow. It's Tenacious Tuesday, and Barbara Arnwine
is going to be on the grind on our show.

(01:13:02):
She is our eyes and ears on the ground in Washington,
d C. Following the federal courts, following the Congress, and
of course the unpredictable behavior of the President of the
United States. In the first hour, Bishop Toulton will share
with us the idea and discuss really picking up on
what we've said today and who is my brother and
who is my neighbor. We'll be dealing with that tomorrow.

(01:13:25):
But in this hour on Moving Mountain Mondays, of course,
is doctor Teresa Horde Owens and our very special guest,
doctor Aubrey Hendrix. There is no way I could have
ever predicted doctor Owens that Ob Hendricks would be with
me for two hours. I am just sitting over here

(01:13:45):
absolutely tickled. Pink's a there's a lot of time trying
to chase him down to get it to come on
our show. And we are extremely grateful Teresa, as you know,
and doctor Hendrix, as you know. Our final saying is
always offering a word of hope, and I want to
begin with with Teresa because of course this is her program.

(01:14:06):
But bridging the gap between the generations seems to be
something that you and doctor Hendrix have expressed in all
of your works. Great interests in Doctor Owen's help us
bridge that gap.

Speaker 3 (01:14:24):
You know, I just think it's so important because space
was made for me as a younger person. I'm a
couple of years older than you, Jesse, not that many,
but space was made for me to grow and develop,
and I'm grateful that I have been able to hold space.

Speaker 4 (01:14:43):
You know, we were talking about holding.

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
Space for people and spiritual direction, all these other kinds
of things. And I've watched too many Christians in my
own tradition. They want young people in the pews, but
they don't want to give up any power or any leadership.
And that is as I think for a long time
the church was the place where we did have our
power right where many of us we might have not

(01:15:07):
been in charge of anything else in our life, but man,
we were the deacon or the trustee, and nobody was
going to tell us what to do here at this church.

Speaker 4 (01:15:15):
And we what little control we had. We sees it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:18):
I see it even in the grocery store going down
the aisle. Some of us are not don't tell me
where to put my even if it's just a matter
of common courtesy.

Speaker 4 (01:15:29):
Don't tell me what to do.

Speaker 3 (01:15:32):
And we've got to get to a point where we
are listening and listening really and hearing what younger people
are saying.

Speaker 4 (01:15:41):
I have a thirty five year old son, I've got
to listen.

Speaker 3 (01:15:45):
He's grown up in a different time and a more
quote unquote integrated environment than I have. I was at
a white church in Marietta, Georgia yesterday, and a young
trans man came up to me and asked me if
he could give me a hug, and he was doing
so in response to a sermon. The sermon was from

(01:16:06):
Classius three twelve to seventeen. You know Jesus, says Paul
tells the church, clothe yourself with kindness, compassion, love and mercy,
and my normal you know, my two part this. You know,
we only have a few sermons right that we actually preach,
But to say that no one gets to tell you
what you're worth it that you are enough. And when
I see young people who respond emotionally to a message

(01:16:29):
of inclusion and respect and listening and sitting at tables,
we don't do enough of that. First of all, our
structures don't often reward this kind of engagement. You have
to be around a long time in order to have
authority or power in these institutions. And the institution itself
is not the point. Because we've had use these institutions

(01:16:53):
for our own communities, we've gotten hung up on the
value that they bring.

Speaker 4 (01:16:58):
But the institution is not the point.

Speaker 3 (01:17:00):
The work that we're trying to do, that the transformation
of society is the point. And we're not doing enough
listening and we're not making space for people other than
ourselves to have a word about how things go.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
Institutional maintenance is the order of the day, right, you know,
taking care of protecting our churches and and all that.
But you know that's why we talked about hope. The
Black Lives Matter movement before it became more bureacratized, it

(01:17:34):
was I mean, it was amazing. I went to the
first convening out in Cleveland, and man, they were so
You had young people, trans people, gave people that they
felt so free to be who they were and to
bring their energies to a struggle for justice. That's part
of the problem of the church. We will we will

(01:17:55):
only accept people who conform in a certain way. I mean,
and I mean even even Christians have to perform in
a certain way. You have to say amen in a
certain way. Sometimes you'll be rejected. But so I think
that the real movement is going to be outside the church.
If we could harness these, you know, inspire these in

(01:18:16):
support movement, these young people, they we might have some
hope of some real change in the society. And I
think that's the best thing we could do. One thing
that folks said about Coronell West when he was out
in uh in In in Missouri, after the brother was
brother Brown was killed, young brother was killed. You know,

(01:18:37):
Cornell was not there trying to tell people what to do.
He said, I'm just here to listen and to be
a support. It's your fight now, and I do believe that.
I mean, but we have to want to support them
and and not tell them what to do and ask, well, look,
can I suggest this? Can I suggest that? It takes humility,

(01:18:58):
But it also takes it takes clarity that what counts is,
as you say, is the struggle. It is the struggle
for justice and building building a new world, not just
the way we want to do, not just us. It's
about all of us less. Let me say, in my
book of Politics of Jesus, there's some there's a fifty

(01:19:18):
singing in there that came to me and brought me
to tears. It was that treat people's needs as holy,
treat the holy. If we can, that can be standard,
uh for politics. I mean, our analytical and our prescriptive
standard is that this policy treat people's needs as holy, well, good,

(01:19:42):
then let's do it. If it does not, then we
have to jettison the fight against If we can just
reduce our movement to a phrase, a summary phrase like
that of summary concept, we might be able to fight
these free people off.

Speaker 1 (01:19:58):
Treat the people's needs as holy holy. Yeah, wow, Yes,
I remember reading that in the Politics of the Lord's prayer,
and it literally leaped out of the book at me.
Treat the people's needs as holy. Who often our needs

(01:20:20):
are not treated as holy, they're political when they should
be treated as holy. I don't know if I've had
a richer program. We have about three minutes left in
the program, Reverend hord ORNs, let me try and divide
that time equally.

Speaker 4 (01:20:39):
You know, hope, word of hope. I think you know understanding.

Speaker 3 (01:20:44):
Really that there is actually something to be said for
naming something as holy, for reverencing something that's higher other
than ourselves, and I think we're losing some of that.
I'm not advocating for it in a dogmatic way, but
simply in a in a human, existential and ethereal and
spiritual way that our whole selves have to be lived

(01:21:07):
out in some acknowledgement whatever you call, however you call
the holy, that if we lose sight of that, then
we lose the only external opportunity that we really have
to create hope that's beyond ourselves.

Speaker 4 (01:21:21):
And we've got to do that in healthy ways, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:21:25):
But I think we risk something if we risk losing
just a very idea of that some things actually are
holy I'm not sure that we have enough reverence. I
may be redundant to say we don't have enough reverence
for what's holy, but I don't think we do.

Speaker 4 (01:21:39):
I don't think we embrace that enough in order to
keep our soul.

Speaker 3 (01:21:44):
Our spiritual persons alive and healthy and reaching for something
that's beyond ourselves.

Speaker 4 (01:21:49):
That's that's important to me.

Speaker 3 (01:21:50):
And I'm just not sure that we're doing a good
job of helping people to tap into that.

Speaker 1 (01:21:55):
I think I'm going to have to leave that as
the last word. A very special way. Teresa Horde Owens
on Moving Mountain mondays she is one of the most
important contributors that we have all week. She gets us started,
and I want to thank you, doctor Hendrix for giving
us freely of your time.

Speaker 2 (01:22:11):
A full decided Doctor Horde, to be head of a
major denomination. That gives me hope.

Speaker 3 (01:22:18):
I've got to get you to the Disciples some kind
of way, Doctor Hendrix. We're gonna figure this out.

Speaker 2 (01:22:23):
So I'd love to get together with you boy, if
we just sit down to coffee. I would love Yes, we.

Speaker 4 (01:22:27):
Would love to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:28):
Would love to.

Speaker 4 (01:22:29):
Do that.

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):
If both of you can stay with me to laugh
for the program will take care of that. I'm Jesse
Jackson Junior. You've been listening to The Jesse Jackson Junior
Show on kb l A fifteen eighty. When we come forward,
it will be tomorrow on tenacious Tuesdays,
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