“Thought-provoking Thursdays” on The Jesse Jackson Jr Show.

First up, veteran government affairs guru, private sector maven, and bi-monthly, special guest host of “Worldwide with Kgosie Matthews” is joined by international affairs expert, and professor who specializes in back-room diplomacy, mediation, and negotiation, Dr. PL De Silva. The trio, meticulously formed with anchor, Jesse Jr, went right to the heart of America’s “world” positioning when policy, especially efforts historically formed from higher ideals to be “responsible global citizens,” both domestic and abroad, are considered. Will America end up alone? What will be the cost of the direction she is in, and who stands to pay the price? In the second hour, weekly series host of “The World House” on The Jesse Jackson Jr Show, Dr. Johnny Mack, continued with Matthews and De Silva for a few minutes, picking up where they left off, with Dr. King in mind. Each Thursday, the Mack-Jackson conversation provokes us to recall, reconsider, and re-activate the spirit of a king who challenged the nation. 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Jesse Jackson Junior and WelCom forward for the Jesse
Jackson Junior Show Today's Thursdays. Our very special guest is
worldwide with Hulsey Matthews. Doctor King once said, if our
nation can spend at that time thirty five billion dollars
a year to fight an unjust evil war in Vietnam,

(00:24):
and twenty billion dollars to put a man on the moon,
it can spend billions of dollars to put God's children
on their own two feet right here on earth. We've
got some questions to ask now about this big, bad bill,
and it is bad, bad and ugly is America when

(00:48):
we follow the money giving Israel a wink and a
nod for Israeli activity in Syria? Are Russians sanctions that
the United States suggests that it will impose go through
with its threat. What are the consequences in the next
less than fifty days. Because Trump, who promised to bring

(01:09):
the conflict between Russia and Ukraine to an end on
day one, is exacerbating. Trump has failed to get a
peace deal between Russia and Ukraine. Then there's the African
meeting where Donald Trump is realizing that well some African leaders.
Their first language is English. He's surprised that, Well, where

(01:32):
did you learn to speak good English? Said, well, we
are Liberia, an English speaking country.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
What are America's interests in the region? These are the
China and Russia in Africa. Everywhere Donald Trump goes, he
wants mineral deals. In fact, if we're honest, Hunter Biden
was in Ukraine trying to get a mineral DEALO. According
to his laptop something about these Democrats and Republicans and

(02:04):
their families playing at the very top of the economy
are looking for mineral deals, rare earth mineral deals, and
America we must be on It does not matter whether
it's a Democrat or a Republican. When these families are
overseas cuttings these kinds of deals, it looks like it's
the American people that are sanctioning that kind of behavior.

(02:26):
This is new territory for us. Pulsey Matthews is a
founder of the firm and is based in Johannesburg. Pulsy
has over thirty years of experience in the public and
private sector. Has lived and worked in England and the
United States, as well as across Africa. Early in his career.
He was at Hill and Knowlton in New York and

(02:46):
at American Express Corporate Headquarters, where he was Director of
State Government Affairs. He subsequently went to work in Washington,
d C. In the Public Affairs group at the law
firm Washington and Christian, where he represented governments and corporate
client Doctor P. L. Da Silva has over twenty years
experience of backroom diplomacy, mediation and negotiation. He has taught politics,

(03:09):
international relations and several graduate undergraduate programs at universities in
New York, New Jersey, Long Island and Queen's University of
Belfast in Northern Ireland. Doctor de Silva's publications include postmodern Insurgencies,
political Violence, identity Formation, and Peacemaking In comparative perspective. Halsey,
Matthews and doctor de Silva Welcome forward to the Jesse

(03:30):
Jackson Junior Show.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Good evening. It's a pleasure to be here, Halsey.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Let me begin with you. I just want you and
doctor de Silva to both know that I absolutely appreciated
how wonderful the time was we spent together on our
last show, and I wanted to make sure that you
both came back Halsey, The world seems to be bowing
to the desires and plans of Donald John Trump. Share

(03:59):
with us what some of the consequences and the ramifications
that that truly are.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
I think you're now starting to see an imperial presidency.
The danger becomes when the question is asked, is the
emperor wearing any clothes? What does this mean for the
strategic imperatives of the United States. You're seeing a situation

(04:24):
now in the Middle East which very much looks like
an attempt to remake the Middle East in America's image
or in Israel's image. What are those implications. You're seeing
a very very different approach to Africa, which is founded
on the notion that let's see what we can extract

(04:45):
in inverted commas. Extract from Africa because critical minerals have
become the fashion of the day. What are you going
to leave behind when you extract from Africa? Because that
has always been the great challenge around the developmental needs

(05:06):
of African states and the continent as a whole. So
there are a number of questions that it seems that
from week to week there is a new impetus. We
also are concerned.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
Listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. You're listening to
KBLA Talk fifteen to eighty when we come forward Wilsey
Matthews and doctor pl da Silvia. Your guests are Halsey Matthews,
who I had to interrupt just before we went to
the break and came forward, and doctor Pernaka d Silva,
whose name I mispronounced right before we went to the break.
But I'm fixing it now. Halsey, you were making a point,

(05:42):
and then I'm going to bring doctor de Silva into
the conversation.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
I think I'll let doctor de Silva take it from
their prof Good evening.

Speaker 4 (05:50):
Good evening, very good evening to you.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Doctor de Silva. It looks like the world is upside
down right now. Threats of unparalleled Russian terroriffs from the
United States because Russia is not bending to the will
of the President of the United States, African leaders in
the Oval Office, where Donald Trump again continues his crusade

(06:13):
or rare earth minerals from one end of the globe
to the other, and Israel's involvement in Syria, obviously backed
by the United States with tremendous military power. The consequences
for the globe are extraordinary, doctor Silva.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yes, so.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
I think we're who he is taught. I mean, things
are so bad across the board. So talking of real minerals,
the Chinese are the ones who have the control on
the supply of minerals. And it takes years to build up,

(06:55):
you know, the required quantities and the different reds and
just you know, trying to run around here and there
where there's the Congo or other countries like Ukraine. It's
not easy. It's not a quick fix. It takes a
long time. You've got to mind these, you got to

(07:17):
you know, refine them. It takes a lot of effort,
time and effort. As far as the Israeli attacks from
Syria are concerned, it's just an Israel that is smarting
after the Twelve Day War with the Iranians where they

(07:38):
got vested. They really truly got vested. Though they are
trying to keep things under wraps and they are trying
to you know, dismantle Syria. Syria is a weak state
and they're using the Druze ethnic community to drive a
wedge in Syrian unity. And that is what the Israelis

(08:04):
are trying to do. And of course with the blessings
of Washington, DC under the ages of Trump. So things
are unsettled. Israelis are bombing Syria, they've bombed South Lebanon,
but it doesn't it doesn't change the fact they got
vested by the Iranians.

Speaker 5 (08:26):
And you know, in all.

Speaker 4 (08:28):
The wars that the Israelis have fought, this is the
one twelve day war where they truly got a hammering.
And I think it's not a bad thing for Israelis
to come to their senses because they are slaughtering men, women, children,

(08:49):
mostly children, killing them, you know, tens and twenty thirty,
forty fifty sixty, they're killing them every day. And this
is unconscionable and we cannot stand by and be silent.
We as the Great United States of America, in all

(09:11):
good conscience, we cannot be silent.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
You know, I find it the reason I began the
show with that quote from Martin Luther King Junior. Albeit
the numbers that doctor King was talking about reflect I
guess nineteen sixty two dollars or nineteen sixty three dollars.
And today, of course, we're talking a military budget that's
nearing if it hasn't already exceeded a trillion dollars, and

(09:38):
yet here in the United States we find ourselves looking
at legislation that will devastate Medicaid, devastate medicare, devastate the
social safety net. The anger amongst the people has yet
to even manifest itself because of the way in which
the bill was written and delaying the process until after

(10:01):
the elections in twenty twenty six. But the pain for
the American people is coming, doctor King's point about putting
a man or a woman on their own two feet
right here in the United States. But the idea that
we spend a trillion dollars, and you know, and the
rest of the world knows what we know, that Israel

(10:22):
is backed by the United States, that Ukraine is now
getting a new look as a result of Phuton's consistent
bombardment of Kiev and other parts of Ukraine. That our
money is actually going, like the Vietnam War, to fighting
these conflicts abroad.

Speaker 4 (10:44):
Indeed, indeed, and it's a sheer waste of money, truly,
we you know, rivers of blood. And if you look
at the rickety infrastructure, look at the state of our
real look at the state of the bridges, look at
this poverty. Look at the destitute people who are homeless.

(11:08):
I mean, these are things. If these people are truly Christian,
this is what they should be looking at, not going
and fighting foreign wars and helping belligerans to go and
kill innocent people. They claim to be Christian. What does
it mean to be a Christian? It is the good Samaritan,

(11:31):
if we remember the parable, so it is it behooves
us to have a conscience, to have a heart, to
care for other people, which does not seem to be
the remit of these rich people, these billionaires who are
in the trump coterie, they do not care. And my

(11:55):
grandfather told me a story when I was a young boy.
He said, how much money can one person have? How
much food can you eat? You have only one mouth?
How many beds do you need to sleep on? You
have only one head and one pillow? So how much
money do you really want? And this is in the sixties,

(12:15):
mind you, okay, And it's so egregious and what we
were taught about right and wrong. There's a clear divide
between right and wrong. These people are blurring those lines
and what is wrong is right and what is right
is wrong. It's terrible it's really like end times.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
You know.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
Gandhi was once quoted as saying, the world has enough
resources for everyone's need, but there are simply not enough
for every person's greed. And I find that particularly moving
quote and a reality that we are living through. Every day.

(12:57):
We'll see the idea that the the neo colonialist empire
where the United States allows private sector companies to come
to Africa and to other poor, de industrialized nations throughout
the world with a big bully stick the US military

(13:19):
economic hegemony to extract from the earth the vital materials
that multiple generations of future Africans and future South Americans
and future poor people who come from these regions need
in order to survive. I don't think that there is
an infinite amount of these natural resources. At some point

(13:43):
in time they run out and then what's left for
the people.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
No, that's exactly right, and I think it really begs
the question. I don't think that anyone in any African
country or any country in the world is against investment
in the country, creation of jobs to develop their economies,
but it cannot be at the exclusion of the development
of that country and being able to give it back

(14:08):
and leave things behind. So mineral extraction, those minerals are
taken out and they're beneficiated outside the country and they
don't come back there. No, nothing is once it's once
it's taken out of the ground, it often leaves. And
what we'd like to see, I think across a number

(14:28):
of the African states, is some of that mineral wealth
that is being utilized actually being used to develop and
create jobs, build schools, improve healthcare so that Africa itself
is not dependent on on on handouts from from from
western countries or even from China for that matter. There

(14:49):
has to be a way in which we can start
to see the importance of critical minerals actually being used
as a strategic part of a development of a state
and not just be for purposes solely for extraction, to
build electronic vehicles or to help AI and technological advancements
that take place outside of the continent. There has to

(15:10):
be some opportunity that's given to make sure that the
continent is developed as well as so that when meetings
take place, they're not being the African leaders and OK,
well we've helped you out, We've done this for you,
and you know, African countries or just a basket case
or something like that. Well, help develop those countries and
let those resources be utilized for the development of the

(15:33):
countries that from which they're extracted. I think that's really
the most important thing that we would want to see
happening as part of If the administration is really interested
in state craft, state craft and the development of economies
that can actually trade are not only within the continent,

(15:54):
but outside of the continent, then it will help you
in the utilization of that resource, those resources, I think
think in a proper and meaningful way for the development
of those states. But for far too long, those minerals
have been extracted and they've then left the continent and
gone to Europe and across the world.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
You know, Halsey and doctor de Silva. Let me just
share with you that from an African American perspective, we
have borne the brunt of Donald Trump's policies for the
last six or seven months since his inauguration with three
and a half more years to go, He's dismantling institutions

(16:34):
of higher education, dismantling diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is
a code word for black He is overturning and doing
everything he can to overturn the voting rights active nineteen
sixty five. He has done everything within his power to
eliminate minority set asides, calling them some form of DEI
or affirmative action, and even empowered the Justice Department to

(16:58):
utilize existing civil rights laws arguing reverse discrimination against whites.
Now that same mindset that he has for us here,
I can only imagine that when he talks about rare
earth minerals in Africa, that he comes with a similar scheme,
a similar attitude, a similar disposition. It may sound like
it's just rare earth minerals, but at the same time,

(17:21):
I don't necessarily see African leaders understanding who they're dealing
with when it comes to how he treats us, and
that he is treating them essentially the same. That is,
I'm not seeing African leaders insist, well, hey, this is Africa.
I'm looking for black businesses in Los Angeles to do
business with, and if America wants these rare earth minerals,

(17:43):
You're going to buy it from a black man in America.
If a black man can't do business with the African country,
well the chances are we will never do business with
Ukraine or Europe or Russia. I mean, we're just not
first up for doing business with a non native. And
so it just seems to me who see that this

(18:03):
form of neo colonialism is as true today, doctor de Silva,
as it was one hundred years ago, even one hundred
and fifty years ago. Helped me with this, doctor de silver.

Speaker 4 (18:15):
Yes, we are still living in colonial times.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
We still are.

Speaker 4 (18:20):
And if you look at the Middle East, if you
look what the Israelis are doing, if you look at
what the German Chancellor said saying that the Israelis are
doing the dirty work for us, what does that mean,
even killing women and children, innocent people, civilians, bombing tents.
This is the kind of view that white supremacists actually

(18:45):
have about the world about colored people, you know, brown
and black. And it is time for us to stand
up again like the civil rights movement and say that
enough is enough. We are not going to take this.

(19:06):
We are going to stand up and we are going
to resist. That's what we have to do, and more
and more people need to do it, and we need
to vote in the midterm elections on November here and
make sure that we are going to be the ones

(19:30):
that we are good to hold the question and all
the the Republican senators and Democratic senators that all the
men and women in Congress, we're going to hold them accountable.
And those people who don't care for the people and
their well being should be thrown out. We need new

(19:52):
candidates and new blood.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
Oh see, I just want to add this. We got
about two two and a half minutes or so before
the break, and I want you to take your time.
If Elon Musk can grow up in apartheid, come to
the United States, become the richest man on Earth, go
back to Africa because Tesla and his business ventures need

(20:15):
rare earth, and he ends up with rare earth deals
in Africa for those of us. And Holstly knows this
very well. We went to the frontline states together. I
met with all of the leaders, the president of Mozambique,
Samora Michelle in a Conunda, all of the leaders, We

(20:37):
met with all of them. If Elon Musk can come
back from Africa with the rare Earth's deal, I think
I would just be nauseated.

Speaker 3 (20:46):
I think I'd be behind you, if not in front
of you. I think that it will be a very
sad reflection of where the continent is in twenty twenty five,
if that were to have and that we somehow accord
him a certain status that this is we're basically going

(21:07):
back to eighteen eighty seven and the Berlin Conference and
saying that just carve up, carve up, and take let
the devil take the hindmost basically, and so it would
be it would be a very sad reflection on the
continent and its leadership.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
If we're to allow that to happen.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
Why can't it Dan Gote for example, or any of
the other African Moie Bryant, any of the other great
African business leaders that have emerged in the last twenty
thirty years be the ones who take that rare earth
and the ones who do those deals with African American
You'll remember Jesse, Dick, Griffy, Eugene Jackson or all businessmen

(21:53):
who had a very strong belief in the development of
business between African Americans and Africans and and actually put
their money where their mouth is and came to the continent.
They were with us in nineteen eighty six when we
did that trip, and many other African leaders who have
consistently done that.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Hossy, I'm Jesse Jackson Junior on Kbile Talk fifteen eighty
when we come forward Hosty Matthews and doctor Pernaka Dasalafe
very special. Yes We'll see Matthews and moving back to
South Africa in twenty thirteen. Holsey has served on the
boards of the South African Post Office and on the
Board of the Retirement Fund.

Speaker 5 (22:28):
For the Post Office.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
In twenty twenty one, Holsty was appointed by the National
Assembly of South Africa as a Counselor on the Independent
Communications Authority of South Africa, which regulates the technology and
broadcast industry in South Africa. Doctor P. L. Da Silva,
doctor de Silva, is the co founder, with Professor W. K. Leschman,
former Vice Chancellor, University of Colombo, of the International War

(22:51):
Related Trauma and Humanitarian Intervention Trust, setting up psychosocial training
programs for practitioners being combatants non combatants during Sri Lanka's
civil war. He's the experienced director with a demonstrated history
of working in the think tanks, industry and academia, the
United Nations political and military affairs, and the private sector.

(23:15):
Skilled in research, political risk analysis, geostrategy, cultural diplomacy and
humanitarian action. Doctor de Silva, welcome forward to the Jesse
Jackson Junior Show, and mister Matthews, thank you. One of
the things that particularly impressed me about doctor de Silva
when he was on our show the first time was
something that he said, and it was this, we academics

(23:40):
have to move out of our classrooms and during these
times we must raise our voices and resist. That's one
of the reasons I want doctor de Silva to be
a regular contributor on the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. Doctor
de Silva, why must we get out of the classrooms,
raise our voices and resist.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
If we do not do that, if we do not
emulate our grandparents who are in the civil rights movement,
if we do not do that, these white supremacists and
the billionaire class are going to steamroller all of us,
over all of us, and there's going to be nothing
left for us. There's not going to be any medicaid,

(24:25):
there's no education, there's there's no merit. It's going to
be everything. Everybody's being you know, profiled, and they're going
to look at this, your skin color and how you
speak English. So these are these are the parameters.

Speaker 5 (24:43):
This is this is.

Speaker 4 (24:43):
How the FBI and ICE and all these people profile you,
and this is the very reason why we need to
stand up for ourselves. Nobody is going to come and
save us, nobody. We've got to do it ourselves. We've
got to pull ourselves up from the blue bootstraps. There
was nobody who supported Rosa Parts. She did it herself.

(25:08):
We have to emulate our great leaders of the past.
And it's only then can this country can truly become
a great country.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Doctor de Silvall, in the tradition of Martin Luther King Junior,
you make the connections between domestic policy in the United
States and foreign policy abroad and the consequences and the
ramifications of those movements. Please share with our listeners why
that is so significant.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
It is significant because what happens in Washington, d c.
Actually can lead to dead bodies in foreign parts. Just
the dismantling of USAID, which you know helped so many people,

(26:01):
poor people, destitute people in foreign countries, which was part
of the soft power and the charm of the United States.
It has been dismantled. The USA does not exist anymore so,
the United States does not have any soft power anymore. So,
we only have what hard power. So we send missiles,

(26:24):
we send bombs, we send rockets, we send you know, warplanes.
Is that what the United States is all about? Come on,
these people claim to be Christians. I repeat, they claim
to be Christians. Christians are supposed to do good and
therefore the policies that are made in Washington, d C.

(26:48):
Has huge impact worldwide. And therefore we cannot disassociate. We
can't you know, run back and think, okay, is going
to be make America great again and just look at ourselves.
But if you look at President Trump and his people,

(27:09):
they're not only you know, hoodwinking the people with all
this hypocrisy, but they're also stuffing their pockets left, right,
and center. It's the corrupt endeavor. The rubber barons are
the ones who are running this country.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
Oh see. There was a moment of hope during the
tragic events that occurred post Hamas's unconscionable act of terror
on October seventh, and that was the subsequent response by
Benjamin not in Yahoo essentially using the world's most or

(27:52):
second most powerful military on the planet against civilians that
don't even have an air force. And it was South
Africa that came to the Palestinians rescue and support first
in the international tribunes. That leadership many of us in

(28:15):
the civil rights movement found particularly impressive because we fought
to end apartheid here in the United States, for there
to be an African National Congress, for the majority to
be able to rule, and then seemingly here in the
United States we were helpless to stop what was taking

(28:39):
place beyond a mosque, a war that was being waged
on the civilians themselves, even though many of us still
support the two states solutions, which I think is probably
a byword of history now, but it seems to me
that African leadership showed for a moment a bright ray
of hope in the midst of this human tragedy.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
No, I think there's absolutely no question of that.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
And South Africa, they haven't seen particular as a government,
has always had a very strong bond with the situation
in Palestine. Nelson Mandela famously said, and South Africa cannot

(29:27):
be free until Palestine is free.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
So there's a.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
Very strong historical link. And then when you see some
of the events that have taken place, some of those
events are reminiscent of some of the events that took
place in South Africa, the tanks rolling in to the townships,
the nineteen seventy six awere to our Rising, and many

(29:51):
others cross border incursions. I don't know whether you will remember, Jesse,
when we we went to Botswana and we went to
the Botswana border in nineteen eighty six, a very large
contingent of the then South African Defense Force came to
the border. We're at the Clockowang border, which is the
border between South Africa and Botswana, and they came very

(30:16):
very close to the border as if to try to
intimidate that delegation that was being shown that proximity to
the border, and how often these incursions take place without
any warning into Harboroni and a number of activists from
the ANC are killed and so on. So there's a

(30:36):
very strong, I think, aspect of South Africa as an
independent state and how it gained its independence that identifies
very strongly with what has happened and what has been happening.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
In Palestine and South Africa.

Speaker 3 (30:57):
I think was very clear and unequivalent about support for
the people of Gaza.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
I'm Jesse Jackson Junior listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.
On KBLA Talk fifteen to eighty. We'll see Matthews Worldwide
with Matthews is our guest and doctor P. L. Da Silva,
whereas over twenty years experience and back room diplomacy, mediation
and negotiation. Gentlemen, welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
Oh good evening. Thank you Halsey.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
I'm hoping that you and doctor de Silva will consider
just hanging around with us after the hour for one
more small segment with the Doctor Johnny Mack. Johnny Mack
has been tasked with helping envision a World House largely
based upon the work of Martin Luther King Junior. And
I think today we've spent a lot of time talking

(31:46):
about the state of the World House and where it
is going. Doctor da Silva talked about the absence of
US soft power, the end of the United States Agency
for International Development, and that's soft power, if I remember
correctly in a minute since I in Congress. But it
was like less than one percent of one percent of

(32:07):
the budget of the United States, and yet it vaccinated
and it fed poor people and provided fresh water and
housing opportunities all over the globe. And it is fairly
amazing that one of the wealthiest nations on Earth, and
maybe the wealthiest nation on Earth, is so stingy when
it comes to the poor, doctor de Silva, I hope

(32:31):
you'll join us for another ten minutes along with you,
Jilse Matthews, at the conclusion of this hour, doctor de Silva,
if you would share with us your gravest concerns about
the present course that we are on.

Speaker 4 (32:43):
It's the cruelty. It's the cruelty of the Trump administration,
of what they do to people without power, who are poor,
who are old, who are pensioners. It's the sheer cruelty,
that's what That's what really beggars belief. These people, this

(33:07):
so called Christians, how cruel they are. They have fired
hundreds of thousands of workers. They're affecting the tariffs, are
affecting the four oh one case, the pension. Some people
have lost their pensions. Some people have lost chunks of
their four oh one case. So why are these people

(33:30):
in power? Why are they in government just to fill
their pockets. Aren't they supposed to be doing public service,
looking after the affairs and the well being of the
American people. These people are really truly despicable.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
I can't disagree with that hussy your thoughts on where
this is headed?

Speaker 3 (33:55):
Oh, I think that we have entered the age of uncertainty,
and we we we we can wake up next week
and it's possible that, you know, another attack has been
launched on another nation, or the tariffs are now going

(34:16):
through the roof against India, for example, or the EU.
And is it the strategic intent of the United States
to break the global economy? How does it then reshape
that economy when you have basically made many of these
particularly developing states poorer and no longer able to export,

(34:39):
or you know, what is what is this long term
strategic intent? There's always the notion that foreign policy drives
domestic policy and not the other way around. And and
it's becoming very clear that that the current trajectory of
the United States is creating tremendous uncertainty. And what you're

(35:03):
seeing is most leaders paying lip service. But I can
assure you that behind closed doors, they're wringing their hands
and they're smashing their heads against the wall because they
just don't know what they face the next day when
they wake up.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
And that's the real.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Is it driving these nations closer to China and closer
to Russia. Are they finding certainty a doctor de silva
in these other countries other than the United States.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
I think what will eventually happen is that there'll be
the majority of countries worldwide will coalesce to countries that
want to have free trade. So it will be the EU,
it will be China. I think those will be the
two big drivers, along with Southeast Asian countries and also

(35:52):
India and the bricks. We should not discount the bricks,
which are also going to play a part. But people
are going to trade among themselves. They are not going
to listen to the dictat of President Trump and his
tariffs and his whims and fancies. And ultimately what's going

(36:16):
to happen is that in three and a half years time,
the United States will be in a very lonely place,
in a very isolated place. And the problem for us
living here is that we the people are going to
feel the full brunt of this because Billennias don't care.
They don't live from paycheck to paycheck, They simply don't care.

(36:40):
So it's the poor people, the majority of people in
this country, and that's why we have to get out
the vote. We have to. We must, It's a matter
of survival.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Oh see, we have about two and a half minutes
before we before we conclude this segment, and of course
you and doctor de Silva have agreed to stay with
me for another segment. Do you see any hope, wholesy,
Is there any hope for our system, in our way
of life going forward?

Speaker 2 (37:09):
I think we just have to do.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
I'm sorry, We just have to hope that twenty twenty
six comes a lot sooner, because that is what I think.
We're placing a lot of reliance on the elections in
the United States, the congressional elections in twenty twenty six
and some of the Senate seats, and I think that
is perhaps the only hope, because it seems when you

(37:33):
look at it from a distance, that the Supreme Court
no longer acts like the Supreme Court. It has become
a court that basically carries out the wishes of the
executive and that's unheard of throughout if you study American presidency,
particularly in the modern era, even the appointment of conservative

(37:57):
justices never ever you did not this swing that was
so complete. And I think that Associate Justice Ken Donny
Brown was quite correct. You're seeing a fundamental meltdown of
the of the American judicial system, in the American judicial
process that is now basically lock stock moving in the

(38:19):
same direction as the administration.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
And so it's it's it's.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Quite for those of us who've lived and studied the
United States, it's quite startling the direction that it's moving
in in this point. And we can only say, let's
hope that the Democrats get their house in order and
they seriously, seriously plan how to win the election next November,

(38:43):
because at this point that's the only that's the only
that's the only optism, optimism that we can have.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
I give a considerable amount of thought to this question
of how do we restore faith in the Constitution of
the United States. It is a battered document. It has
been shredded in so many ways that even when the
other side comes in to offer its points of view,

(39:12):
it still finds itself with an imperial presidency, it still
finds itself wondering whether or not it can now do
on the left what Donald Trump has done on the right,
and the future could just be this kind of back
and forth, back and forth. I'm Jesse Jackson Junior. You've
been listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show on KBLA
Talk fifteen eighty.

Speaker 5 (39:31):
When we come.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Forward, we will be talking about the World House with
none other than doctor Johnny J. Mack, and our guests
from this hour have agreed to stay with us for
another segment. I want to make this introduction because doctor
Mack has been so careful in his thinking on this matter.
I'm Jesse Jackson Jr. In this hour, our weekly series

(39:52):
is the World House. Our special guest doctor Johnny J. Mack,
who's well traveled throughout America, Africa, Asia, Europe and the
Middle East, explicating Doctor King's call to restructure the social
edifice of its triple evils of poverty, racism and militarism
with a revolution of values that are affected through peaceable power.

(40:17):
In the last hour for the mac Halsey Matthews was
our very special guest on his contribution to our program
called Worldwide and doctor P. L. Da Silva, who is
a distinguished professor, contributor and thinker in many think tanks

(40:41):
on some of the problems that confront our world. I
wanted them to come over to our program for just
this brief segment in part because your work in the
area of the evils of poverty, racism and militarism were
touched upon by both of these gentlemen South Africa, Israel

(41:04):
and the Gaza to Syria, and in a real sense,
doctor King was a prophetic visionary on these questions.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
The close.

Speaker 5 (41:18):
Thank you very much, Jesse. It's great always to.

Speaker 6 (41:21):
Be on the on the program and the privilege of
listening to mister Matthews and and doctor de Silva. King
really left us with an incredible roadmap, I think, and
path toward realizing his vision of the world house. He anticipated,

(41:45):
as you suggested in Your Clothes, Uh Jesse in the
last segment, where we would be today in his last book,
as you and I have spoken about over the last
several weeks, when he asked the question where do we
go from here? So the work mister Matthews and doctor
de Silver that you are doing is in line I
think with that, with that prescient vision of his and

(42:11):
the robotic he left.

Speaker 7 (42:12):
Us, Doctor de Silver, Yes, we need the civil rights movement,
we need to fight back, we need to resist.

Speaker 4 (42:24):
We will not go down without a fight. We are
going to win and for us to do this, we
need to organize, We need to get out the vote,
We need to participate in the midterm elections. We need
to defeat all these people who are anti people who
are anti the American people who are anti the pensioners,

(42:47):
the poor people. But everybody's got a vote and that
must count.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
Oh See, it seems that the evils of poverty, racism,
and militarism from Doctor King prophetic vision our realities in
just about every part of the world that you've ever visited.

Speaker 3 (43:07):
No, I think that's correct, but I and it's a
real pleasure to be with Dr Mac. I don't think
he'll remember me from my younger days with Reverend Jackson,
but I know him well, and I know his reputation
very very well, and he's somebody that we always looked
up to and admired greatly. So it's a real honor
to be on the show with him. But what I'd
asked Doctor Mac is really just one question. Would Doctor

(43:29):
King have gone to Gaza at this particular point, or
gone to the Sudan or any of the war torn
areas around the world, Because his philosophy was very clear,
and his view of the Vietnam War and the stand
that he took. Would he have gone to Gaza today
and in your view, what would have been his what
would he have said with regard to what was taking

(43:52):
place or what is taking place there today?

Speaker 6 (43:56):
Well, let's see, thank you for your comments earlier, and
you know to your question would King have gone, well,
we can't be certain can be what he would have done.
We can't be certain of what he did, however, and
how he supported those who struggled for or for peace

(44:16):
and for justice and to throw off apartheid in South Africa.
I think he would have certainly been more than appalled.
That word isn't sufficient when you looked at the war,
the conflict as we see it today between Israel and

(44:38):
the Palestinians in Gaza and beyond that region. He would
be appalled at the support that is given to one
side at the expense of the other. He would be
appalled at the silence of those who are not outraged

(45:00):
the way the war is being is being prosecuted. Whether
he would have been physically there, we don't know.

Speaker 5 (45:12):
Whether he is.

Speaker 6 (45:13):
His principles, his values, his vision would be in supportive
peace and justice with respect to the Palestinian people. He
would be whether he would be in support of those
on Israel side who simply want to live in peace.
I think he would be, but he would be against

(45:34):
those who perpetrate and foster poverty, racism and war.

Speaker 1 (45:42):
With that, Halose Matthews, thank you for being with us,
and doctor de Silva.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Thank you very much, and a very good rest of
the show. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
I look forward to seeing you. Gentlemen. Are very special
guest in this hour is Johnny Mack and will continue
to explore the questions of racism, poverty, and militarism and
its impact on our world. I'm Jesse Jackson Jr. When
we come forward. You're listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior
Show on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. In this hour, our

(46:11):
weekly series presents the World House with doctor Johnny j.

Speaker 5 (46:15):
Mack.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Doctor Mack, welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.

Speaker 5 (46:19):
Thank you. Jesse's so good to be here. Thank you, Johnny.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Let me let me let me share this with you
because Halse Matthews raised something that I think is important
to our thinking on this question of the World House.
He he geopolitically located doctor King in our time and
in our space, and doctor de Silva shared with us

(46:48):
that the triple evils that are at the core of
so much of your work, racism, militarism, and poverty are
so global and so vast that they are simply not
ignorable as factors in the chaos. Now, I say the

(47:12):
location of doctor King is particularly important because you know,
we'd have to take a mental flight, which you did
in your answer, to place doctor King in this time
and in this space, in Gaza, in THEORYA, in Appalachia.

(47:33):
I mean, when we place doctor King in these spaces,
something happens to us, something happens to our consciousness. When
we see this advocate for community up against our present chaos,
it seems to me we're missing the community, the common

(47:58):
unity focus that I think doctor King was encouraging us
to find. Help me, help me with this, Johnny.

Speaker 6 (48:05):
Yeah, you know, Jesse, if I may, I'd like to
suggest that doctor King places himself there.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 6 (48:14):
I think that doctor King's message to us today is
as fresh as it was when he was alive, and
he is there because of a relevant and responsive his message,
his assessment, his analysis of what m hmm ails this society.

Speaker 5 (48:40):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
And so.

Speaker 6 (48:44):
You know he is, He's ever with us, I think,
But the question is how do we join him?

Speaker 5 (48:53):
How? You know?

Speaker 2 (48:54):
Are we there?

Speaker 5 (48:57):
That's that's as there? Are we there with him?

Speaker 2 (49:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (49:04):
Yeah, everyone invokes King's name.

Speaker 6 (49:08):
We look backwards Jesse, you know, you know, he talks
about the fond memories that we hold in chapter five
of that book, about how the organizations then came together
to fight the injustice of what you know, one might
call American apartheid. The King also said that those organizations

(49:30):
that had assembled at that time would not be the
ones stay with me, Jesse.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Now.

Speaker 6 (49:35):
He said those organizations would not be the same ones
who would be assembled for the task ahead, and that
task ahead is where we are now.

Speaker 5 (49:44):
Now.

Speaker 6 (49:45):
Some might find that comment quite controversial today.

Speaker 5 (49:51):
But it goes back to are we with him? And
what is the structure?

Speaker 6 (49:55):
Doctor de Silva talked about organizing and mobilizing today and
then he mentioned voting.

Speaker 5 (50:02):
Mm hmm, Is that is that the answer? Jesse?

Speaker 6 (50:10):
Voting certainly is necessary, and he provides a vehicle for
us to express ourselves. And but but but but but
do we end there? I think we should explore that
a bit more in this hour and beyond mm hmmm.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
So I would make the I would make the argument, uh,
and I did earlier this week that we often hear,
you know, vote for this candidate in a positive affirmation
of who they are. But I spoke about how you know.
Thirdgood Marshal was considered and called the great dissenter. That

(50:50):
we saw Corey Booker on the floor of the United
States Senate in the minority uh de Throne from Thurman
of his title of having delivered the longest fillerbuster in
the history of the Senate.

Speaker 5 (51:06):
We saw.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
Congressman Hakim Jeffreyes de Throne, a Republican Conservative, with his
magic minute. I guess eight hours and forty four seconds
a speech to one minute became almost a third of
a day. Right, Katanji, Brown, Jackson and now Soto Mayor

(51:33):
chief justices are now known as dissent. And maybe doctor
King didn't just see our vote as I'm for you, Johnny,
I'm for Holty, I'm for doctor da Silva, but also
saw our vote as a descent. We have to stop
this guy right here, We have to stop that right there.

(51:55):
And maybe our vote, that power in that vote is
not just out of guilt because Rosa Park sat down
because doctor King dreamed, because Malcolm was assassinated, because doctor
King lived.

Speaker 5 (52:11):
And was killed.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
I'm voting no.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
Maybe our vote is also our finger in the dyke
of a profound problem which isn't limited to just the
exercise of it, but it also includes are you conscious
of the budget? Are you conscious of Medicare and medicaid?
Are you conscious of the social programs and the social

(52:35):
uplift that is necessary? Are you capable of moving beyond
race and sex and class and identifying with people who
are trying to live the same basic life as you
in this community?

Speaker 2 (52:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (52:50):
And Jesse know to whom should those questions be positive?

Speaker 5 (52:55):
You know?

Speaker 6 (52:57):
Are we simply talking to those who would be elected,
to those would represent us in Congress? Are those questions
solely for them?

Speaker 5 (53:05):
Or Jesse?

Speaker 6 (53:06):
Are those questions that we you and I and those
listening to us should be answering ourselves? What is the
consciousness that we must have and what do we do
about that consciousness? You know, programs like this one, programs
like yours, are so important in the business of creating

(53:29):
this collective consciousness that brings us to a point of solidarity.
And then answering the question that King asked of all
of us, where do we go from here? And then, finally,
I would say that, as we've talked in the past,

(53:50):
the question really is what are we going to do
about it? In other words, after voting, then what right
after marching?

Speaker 2 (54:03):
Then what?

Speaker 6 (54:04):
How do we make the substantive change that we seek?
And whose responsibility is it to make it? Those are
the questions I think we should spend time on.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
I wouldn't you know, I wish you were running for office,
right because when I cast my vote, I'd be casting
vote in someone who I know would be engaged in
a deep reflection on the matters of life that didn't

(54:42):
see them as political. But was that understood that? As
Raphael Warnock has said that a vote is a kind
of prayer. My kind of prayer is that a president
Johnny Mack will study war no more m hm. My
kind of prayer is that putting a man or a

(55:06):
woman on their own two feet right here in America
would be a higher value than a hypersonic missile, and
that you would see value in no more aircraft carriers
until there were equal high quality schools from sea to
shining sea. So the vote in and of itself without

(55:32):
a I guess Baldwin would call doctor King some kind
of avatar in the absence of Jesus, in the absence
of Matthew, Mark Luke, and John in the absence and
and and and I rarely call his name because I've
got a lot of problems with Paul uh having never
met Jesus. But in the absence of Paul to be

(55:58):
an avatar for a christ like figure whose empathy with
and concerns for the least of these are at the
core of the decision making process, it just seems to
me that the vote is a tool at that level.
But if there's no Johnny Mack, if there's no Doctor

(56:21):
de Silva, if there's no Matthews, if there's no one
running to which we are investing our prayer, our trust,
and our hope in, it seems to me that my
hope falls on somebody who may or may not know
what they're talking about. That maybe they'll come around to
the idea of doing right, but their political calculations are

(56:45):
fundamentally different than my theological calculations.

Speaker 6 (56:49):
Well, you said it out there for short, and you're
talking about many things there. Of course, Jesse and among
them leadership and what does it mean? What type of
leadership do the challenges and opportunities that confront us today
require and and do we have that leadership today? Who

(57:14):
do we look to, who do we vote for, who
represents us? And who can we count on? You know,
you know that's a very big question and requires you know, careful,
careful consideration.

Speaker 5 (57:29):
You know, where are the Mickey Leland's, uh yeah today?

Speaker 6 (57:37):
And you know, I don't mean to suggest that some
of the leadership in Congress today or even in the
you know, the the state houses don't don't bring some
of that that that real gusto and internal turbo that
I talked about last week, that you know, the Herald
Washington's and you know again Mickey Leland's and the kings

(58:00):
of that time possessed.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
Nicky Leland for those of you who may not know,
Nicky Leland was a congressman from Texas and the head,
I believe, of the Hunger Task Force in the Congress
of the United States. And often he would go to
Andrews Air Force Base as the chairman and take a
federal government plane fly to various parts of the world
delivering food. He had that kind of power in the Congress.

(58:26):
And I shall never forget the day that Mickey's plane
was missing mm hmm, flying over Theopia, and the President
of the United States, I think, sent a large contingent,
maybe even of a battalion of armed servicemen to scour
the hillsides looking for any signs of the life of

(58:49):
Mickey Leland. And they found his his plane, they found
his remains. I knew Mickey, I knew his his chief
of staff who was on the plane, and others, and
so it was quite a dramatic event. It must be
nearly forty years ago, thirty.

Speaker 5 (59:07):
Five years ago, Yeah, that's right, years ago. It would
do us well. You know, his memory is is.

Speaker 6 (59:16):
Is important, not just because of the tragic ending of
his life, but what is life represented, you know, and
the example that he gave us in Congress, but not
only him, so many others. Do we have that kind
of leadership today? And how do we identify them? How
do we find them? I think we should you know,

(59:36):
explode that a bit more, Jesse, I absolutely agree to.
Since you brought up the Mickey example.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
These are the people who did the work right, Yes,
paren Mitchell's the the Ron Dellums. Some of them had
fun out of New York. Adam Clayton Powell, without a doubt,

(01:00:05):
redefined the institution of Congress. I shared with some people
a long time ago. You know, I wanted to do
the work at a parent Mitchell Eve, I said. When
it came to working, I was parent Mitchell. But when
it came to having fun, you know, everybody wants to
be everybody wants to be uh Adam Clayton Powell. Okay, Well,

(01:00:28):
let's move on beyond that. So I'm thinking that that,
you know, for this moment, and we just have a
couple of minutes before the break, that maybe we saw
this this hope factor born again in the canadacy of
Barack Obama, right, I mean the personage of Barack Obama.
But for that moment where it seems that all of

(01:00:51):
the cultural imperatives of our struggle came together. Of course,
governing as president of the United States yielded a mixed
bag of whether or not we actually achieved a beloved community,
whether or not Doctor King, as some have claims that
his work had been really had reached a kind of zenith.
But now that we are living through the backlash, of

(01:01:11):
what the Obama presidency represents, and history with high insight
has a very different interpretation as to whether or not,
given all that we're losing, whether or not we got
enough in those eight years. I mean, I wish he
had issued two thousand executive orders freeing the people. But
of course we approached the position very, very cautiously, based

(01:01:33):
upon the models and examples that have been set for
us by historic presidents. Yeah, I only have about forty
five seconds before we come forward. But your thoughts, Johnny
on that take?

Speaker 6 (01:01:46):
Yeah, well, you know, of course Obama was important for
so many reasons, and the opportunity he had in the
presidency is very different. The times are dived and how
significant was the change in the timing and the mindset

(01:02:07):
of the American people. Imagine Obama taking on some of
the things that we find in the current presidency. I
don't think he would have lasted in that office.

Speaker 5 (01:02:19):
Very long.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Democrats might ran him out of tack.

Speaker 5 (01:02:23):
Likely, What is that change? How did it occur? You know,
there's so much to explore here.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
I'm Jesse Jackson Jr. You're listening to the Jesse Jackson
Junior Show on CABA. They talk fifteen eighty. Our very
special guest in this hour is doctor Johnny Mack, a
very special guest on Thursdays, The World House with Doctor
Johnny Mack. Doctor Mack is well traveled throughout America, Africa, Asia,
Europe and the Middle East. I don't know anyone who

(01:02:52):
covers more ground on this globe than doctor Johnny Mac.
But he's also deeply rooted in the African American experience,
our movement and civil rights here in the United States.
And he's capable, which he does every week, of drawing
the parallels between what we do at home and what

(01:03:12):
is taking place abroad. That too, was a significant part
of Martin Luther King Junior's work that Johnny welcome forward
to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.

Speaker 5 (01:03:22):
Thank you, Jesse. It's good to be here, Johnny.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
I want to go back to this Hossey Matthew question,
Hossey Matthew's question for a moment, and Doctor de Silva,
I want to locate, for example, Doctor King in his
time and in his space. And I love the way
you kind of flip the script or reversed the thinking
on that question. That's really challenging for my one dimensional mind.

(01:03:46):
Sometimes Doctor King geopolitically located himself against the Vietnam War,
and we were not there with him. He became immensely unpopular.
Creatures turned against him, they wouldn't let him speak in
their pullpits. He became an unpopular figure with his anti

(01:04:11):
war position. So it seems to me that there are
many of these moral dilemmas or moral cases around the
world where Doctor King might locate himself and that we
might not be there with him. Help us with Johnny.

Speaker 6 (01:04:33):
Yeah, actually, Jesse, isn't.

Speaker 5 (01:04:37):
That really where we are today?

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:04:39):
I think so, you know, And.

Speaker 6 (01:04:44):
It's a lonely rool if I may. Just before the segment,
we talked about Obama and I'd like to juxtapose Obama
and King in this context, and we commented that if
Obama had done what we see the current pri presidency doing,
it would not have lasted in the office very long.

(01:05:05):
The question is why what changed so significantly from Obama's
administration to the current administration. Well, the person's changed, first
of all, so that says something, and there's an analysis
to be had there that isn't so difficult. But something
else changed. Jesse and King King had to do with

(01:05:29):
this as well. What changed between Obama and the current
administration is the people today who support the current presidency
support the current presidency, and they also make demands of
the current presidency. And we're seeing, of late within the

(01:05:53):
last week or so, certain demands that maybe the current
presidency is not so enamored or.

Speaker 5 (01:06:01):
Very happy about.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
He's busy with that one.

Speaker 5 (01:06:04):
We're busy with it. Isn't he.

Speaker 6 (01:06:07):
But his constituency, Jesse, his constituency supported him, and at
least up until now, we think we'll continue to support him.
But we'll see. But did Obama get that same support?
And the demands placed on Obama were they tenemount to

(01:06:30):
the demands that are placed upon the current presidency. What
did the people demand of Obama? And then what kind
of support did they give him? Is to see those
demands followed through. You know, if king we're here today,
then so back to your question, what demands will be
place on his leadership? And then what support would we

(01:06:50):
give him? And so that question then becomes to the
kings of today, whether they are elected in Congress or
whether they are civic leaders or local politically elected leaders
or even prapat sector leaders, what kind of demands that
we placed upon our leaders today, and then what kind

(01:07:12):
of support do we give them to see those demands
followed or yes, those demands acted upon.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
Johnny, you know, I think I'm kind of uniquely positioned
on the Obama question in that I remember when Michelle
Obama brought him home from Harmer. I remember when he
first stepped into our living room and met my parents.
I remember when I ran for Congress and defeated Alice Palmer,

(01:07:40):
and Alice Palmer turned to my father and said, I
know you want to support me, Reverend, but I'm supporting
a young Barack Obama to be my state senator. So
I'm not going to support your son. I said, see, Dad,
Alice is for her, She's not for me. So I
ran for against her. I beat her, and then she
tried to get her seatback, and Barack Obama challenge repetitions

(01:08:01):
and became a state senator. I was the co chairman
of his campaign for the United States senator. Just two
people did that, Me and Paul Simon. I was a
sitting congressman at the time, very popular congressman in Illinois,
and I was co chairman of this campaign for president.
When Obama won, we did not have any demands of him.

(01:08:22):
We became defensive. We decided we wanted to protect him
his hours. Don't criticize him, leave him alone, don't raise
your voice at him, don't ask him for nothing. Just
be happy. He there now, y'all, and we're going.

Speaker 5 (01:08:36):
To defend him.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
And anybody open their mouth were coming ad to you,
but taking Wait a minute, we need this brother to
pass out some bardons, man, I mean, we need Negro
right here to change some DOJ policy. Wait a minute, now,
we need the great vault of opportunity that keeps coming
back marked in sufficient funds and to do something for

(01:08:57):
our education, our health care, for the environment, for equality
for women, and what do y'all mean. We're going to
defend them no matter what you do. It just seems that.
And then there's a different court of course, right, there's
a different view of the Constitution under Obama. The Court
itself was racist in that it saw itself as standing

(01:09:18):
between an imperial executive if that were Obama, but it
never was his thinking and anything he might do that
needed to be checked by the Court itself. None of
that exists today.

Speaker 5 (01:09:32):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 6 (01:09:36):
Just an excellent analysis of where we were then and
where we are now. And yes, we were quite defensive
and you know, perhaps to our own peril. M we
had our opportunity and what did we do with it?
And again you know that we as us the people,

(01:09:58):
you know, ultimately you and earlier it's something about a
tattered constitution, a tattered and adorned constitution. Well, it's tattered
and torn because we have tattered it and we have
torn it. We've allowed it to be tattered and torn,
and we can mend it, we the people. The question
is how do we do that? Yeah, I said earlier

(01:10:19):
and asked the question is voting the only way to
do it? And that was a loaded question because we
have to understand Jesse, that going to the ballot is necessary,
but it's not sufficient.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Yeah. Yeah, we got to stay on these guys. I mean,
the price that we pay for our freedom is an
eternal vigilance. Yes, I know, Johnny, at some point in time,
my body's going to fail. I mean every morning I
wake up, my back hurts, my shoulders hurt, my wrists hurt.
Something new hurts on me every day at sixty. But

(01:10:53):
I actually am excited about the mental gymnastics associated with
preparing for these shows because I have to be on
it every day, and while my body may fail me,
my mind is in a vigilant state of constant engagement.
And I think some of us wait for the elections

(01:11:15):
to come around before we re engage. I was talking
just yesterday, for example, about the Voting Rights Act of
nineteen sixty five and some of the changes that it
has gone through over the last thirty years. And lo
and behold, I woke up one day and I was
elected to Converridge from a Voting Rights Act district and
what that meant, and including the fact that I had

(01:11:37):
to defend my district against state legislatures and courts who
would seek to dilute it and therefore dilute my voice.
I was fighting for my district like I was fighting
for my voice, because my voice is what I have
and it's what I know. I'm Jesse Jackson Junior listening
to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty.
When we come forward more with Johnny Mack, my very

(01:11:57):
special guest in this final segment is doctor Johnny Mack.
Doctor Mack, Welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.

Speaker 5 (01:12:05):
Thank you Jesse h.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
Doctor Mac. I want to conclude with this little thought.
I think doctor King thought like an architect. He understood
the pre construction of the United States from sixteen nineteen
to seventeen seventy six. I think he understood the construction

(01:12:29):
of the United States from July fourth, seventeen seventy six
through the Bill of Rights. I think he understood the
deconstruction of the United States when it all fell apart,
when eleven stars decided they no longer wanted to be
part of the flag. He was an architect. He saw
what they had built, and then he saw the reconstruction

(01:12:53):
of the United States, first reconstruction, and then he saw
Jim Crow. And obviously with Brown versus the Board of Education,
he saw second reconstruction. And he must have, as an architect,
through his dream, envisioned the idea of some kind of
third reconstruction, some kind of third reconstruction. I'm not so

(01:13:15):
sure whether or not he understood or appreciated, but I
think I'm sure that he did that. Between reconstruction periods,
there's this resistance period, this post Obama period of some
new form of Jim Crow from Jim Crow two point zero.
If I put on this lens of an architect when
I think about about doctor King, because he's a builder,

(01:13:40):
He's a builder, he believes in blueprints, he believes in
the foundational kind of stuff. So towards this community or
chaos question, I think doctor King would try to meet
with Donald Trump. Tell me if I'm wrome, I don't

(01:14:02):
absolutely pass up on the meeting.

Speaker 6 (01:14:06):
I I I agree with you Jessea that on that point,
I do believe that doctor King would meet with Donald
Trump and anyone else who's willing to sit down and
to discuss the issues, who's willing to have in good

(01:14:26):
faith a conversation about where we are and where we
go from here, And that is I believe how King
would approach the conversation.

Speaker 5 (01:14:37):
And So, if we can't talk.

Speaker 6 (01:14:42):
To each other, if we can't communicate with each other,
if we can't approach each other with a sense that
we each have equal dignity and worth and deserve the
same respect that we demand for ourselves, and how will
we ever resolve our conflicts? So absolutely I think that

(01:15:04):
King would at least reach out and seek that kind
of conversation. And I think that we all have to
do that. That's what's wrong with our Congress in my
view today, people who are not willing to reach across
the aisle as we call it, and to talk to

(01:15:25):
each other, to engage with each other.

Speaker 5 (01:15:31):
Rather, we talk to.

Speaker 6 (01:15:32):
Our own, we engage our own, and we otherise anyone
who is not part of us, and therein lies our
peril in the decline of our United States of America.

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):
I think doctor King seeks a meeting with Vladimir Putin.
Talk to me, Johnny.

Speaker 6 (01:15:57):
Why wouldn't he seek a meeting under the same scenario,
the same circumstances that I've described. The question is how
does one create those circumstances, how does one reach out
and what does one expect in return? So, yes, I
think a Benjamin Nataniel m you know, we have to

(01:16:22):
find the common ground, and we do that through engaging
the dialogue. Yes, with some ground rules, those ground rules
of respect and the values that come with that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:40):
For example, I would encourage doctor King not to meet
with him in the Oval office.

Speaker 5 (01:16:46):
We've had too.

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):
Many examples from Zelensky to the President of South Africa
that you may play a video for you that you
don't want to see. True, it is capable of hijacking
a certain kind of meetings, So what would be fought through?
But I think with Trump and Putin, he definitely seeks
a meeting. I think he seats. I think he seats
seeks a meeting with Kim jongle m hm.

Speaker 6 (01:17:12):
So so you know, you know, I think we've made
the point that King seeks a meeting with any anyone
who's willing to sit down and address issues of peace
and justice. And you know, that's the example example for
all of us, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
M I think the question that I that I want
to double back with you on is this, but are
we there with him?

Speaker 5 (01:17:42):
Yes? Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:17:44):
And what demands are we making of ourselves in that regard?

Speaker 5 (01:17:48):
Right?

Speaker 6 (01:17:48):
Are we there with him? Would we would we find
this space? And would we have that internal turboil that
we talked about last week. That's something inside ourselves that
is superior to the circumstances and the nazsayers who say,
oh no, you can't do that. Are we willing to

(01:18:09):
take the risks for peace and for justice and for love?
You know, we were willing to believe in the hope
of humanity. You know, these are the things that have made.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
The King would certainly have to reconstruct the edifice that
he finds at this hour. I think if he were
an architect and he were rebuilding it, I like to
think the edifice would be built around fair trade. Not
just freat trade, but fair trade. I think mister Matthews

(01:18:41):
talked about, you know, every generation digging a little deeper
in Africa, excavating a little bit more from Africa and
leaving nothing in Africa as deeply troubling. That wouldn't be
That might be free trade, but it's not fair trade.
It doesn't take into context human development. And it doesn't
leave healthcare. It doesn't leave vaccines. It leaves polio, it

(01:19:05):
leaves measles, it leaves leaves disease, the kind of disease
at Mosquitoes, malaria. So I think doctor King is outraged
by the elimination of soft power. Yeah, that the closing
of us AI D would be on a bell, an

(01:19:29):
alarm that he would sound. That would be so loud. Johnny,
we have about three minutes until end of show. Please
provide us with some hope.

Speaker 5 (01:19:37):
Well, I hope.

Speaker 6 (01:19:39):
I can you know during the break, I heard the
voice of our good friend Mark Morriel, the head of
the Urban League, who talked about we are in the
battle for the future of America, and Jesse, that's where
we are, not only the battle, a battle for the
future of America. You know, we call that the soul

(01:20:02):
of America, redeeming the soul of America. It's what we
termed that challenge, not only for America, but for the
world itself. We are in the middle of a tectonic
change in the whole global social order, a social order

(01:20:24):
that King himself said we had to reconstruct. We needed
a new social order.

Speaker 5 (01:20:33):
And so.

Speaker 6 (01:20:35):
The question is what will the social order be, you know,
fair trade, free trade, trade, What about the system itself?
What are the systems that will carry us forward as
a people, as a people of these United States, as
a people of as global citizens? What is the world

(01:20:58):
order that will give every human person the opportunity to
realize their potential? Where we will study war no more?
We live in peace injustice. These are the conversations that
we must have and not just talk about them, Jesse,

(01:21:19):
but we must find ways to realize them. And I
hope we can talk about that in our future conversations.

Speaker 5 (01:21:26):
I look forward to it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:27):
I'm Jesse Jackson Junior Listening to The Jesse Jackson Junior
Show on Thursdays with Johnny Mack. So grateful that you're
here with us today, Johnny,