‘Joker: Folie à Deux’ Review, Superfan Focus Groups, and Movie Recommendations

Took a quick break, but it is good to be back! In episode 134 Hayden Koutras of The Dive-In Moviecast returns to chat Joker 2.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
One of folks, and welcome to episode one thirty four
of the Kyber Culture with myself, Joe and Welcoming back
to the pod is Hayden Koutras of The Dive in
to talk about some news and Joker too. Hayden, it
hasn't been hasn't been too long this time since you've
since you've been on the podcast, we talked about Dead
Pol and Wolverine not too long ago. Aside from that,

(00:37):
how's everything going since the last time you've been here?
Good man?

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah, I'm glad we can finally make this happened about
a massive gap between episodes. I wish I was coming
back to talking about a movie I was I was
a bigger fan of quite frankly.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Over the moon ecstatic about Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
No, this is It's gonna be a little more of
a scathing review instead of the usual case where I
think we're usually pretty excited to talk about whatever we
were talking about. But no, but I'm doing great excited
to talk about Joker, even though I wasn't necessarily too
high on it.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
No, I think I do know that, Like you know,
without getting into the film too much, I think I
do like it, just just like a tad more than you.
But but yeah, we'll talk about the movie in a bit.
But besides Joker, is there anything that you've watched like
recently that you that you were like over the moon about.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
You've already mentioned seeing it, But I really loved Wild Robot.
I thought that was extremely like heartfelt and beautiful movie.
When a dream works best in a very long time,
it's the classic case of like, while you're watching it,
it's like this cute little story and then at a
certain point you're so invested in it and then you're
just crying and you have no idea what's going on. Yeah,

(01:42):
And I think that was what happened with the Wild Robot,
where I was like, first little bit I was into
it and I was like, this is awesome, and then
by the end of the movie, I was like, this
is one of the best movies I've seen this year.
Dream Works is on a fucking winning streak, Like it
did something to me, and I think it's an extremely
powerful story of found family and parenthood. And I don't know,
I was really really affected by that one. I thought

(02:03):
it was and the animation is absolutely incredible as well.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, no, Wild Robot, I'm right there with you. When
it first starts, I'm like, yeah, this is this is cool.
Like I was like super roped in on it, you know,
I was like, yeah, this is cool, it's cute. Animation
is sick. But I was waiting for her points, like Okay,
when are we gonna like slow down and like pump
the brakes a little bit, you know. But then I
think it's when it got to when she starts teaching

(02:25):
what is it, bright Bill?

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Or bright Bill how to fly it? And there was
that like little Mire and Morris song like I love
a montage, you know, I think that's what's it for me?

Speaker 2 (02:35):
So and that song accompanying the montage. I was like,
this is undeniable stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Oh yeah, no, it was excellent. But yeah, I know
Wild Robot is a is a going for sure. They
you should check out. Folks.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
You have you seen Strange Darling? Have you heard about
this one?

Speaker 1 (02:48):
I have heard of it, but I've never seen it.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
I've watched it twice now is pretty over the moon
about this one. I really liked it. It's a thriller
and the less, you know, the better type movie, you know,
like go into it blind is just because it plays
a structure in the ways of storytelling, is usually done
quite a bit to give audiences just a little taste
of it. It's a serial killer, cat and mouse thriller,

(03:12):
doesn't lean enough into horror for me to classified as horror.
It's pretty firmly a thriller, but it's told in six chapters,
and the chapters are kind of scattered sporadically in no
chronological particular order, So like you start the movie on
chapter four, bounce to two, go back to five, pop
to one. You know, like you're all over the place,
and then with each chapter you're kind of learning a
little bit more that helps you piece together the story

(03:34):
a bit more. I found it to be just a
wild ride with some really cool performances and just the
kind of movie that like doesn't get talked about enough.
Like it is just a slick, punchy, fun thriller that
keeps you locked in the whole time and drift feeds
you information at a really steady, interesting pace that makes
it really easy to recommend because you're never gonna get

(03:55):
lost watching the movie, even though you don't fully know
what's going on. Very very high record for me, I
thought that was a really really cool.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Thriller nice and uh, I know we just talked about it,
but you know, if I'm just if I'm going to
toss any wreck out there. Uh And folks, you can
listen to it. It may or may not be on
the dive in Moviecast podcast feed. But I mean, the
Substance is incredible. It's a gross film, but if you

(04:21):
have the stomach for it, I recommend you go see it.
But it is, it is gross, but but yeah, it's
probably one of the The Substance and Megalopolis are probably
the top two movies that I've had the most fun
in a theater this year, So you definitely check check
that one out.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Both of a rapidly differing quality, fun for different reasons.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
I suppose fun for different reasons is probably the best
way to put it. But but yeah, quick thoughts on
the Substance though, like we did, we literally just talked
about it, but like, like, why should people go see.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
This movie because the audience is gonna lose if you
see this with the crowd. First off, that is that
is the worth the price of admission alone right there.
But disgusting, slimy, gross visual powerhouse performances from Demi Moore
and Margaret Qualley and just a really fun, clever script
that is constantly poking at the audience and making you

(05:10):
laugh in ways that you would not expect to laugh.
It's presenting you with a heinous shit and then encouraging
you to go along for the journey and then also
sometimes make you laugh. And I think the tonal balance
and the story that it's approaching and the ways that
it goes about telling that story, I think are very unique,
and I think it's it's easily one of my highest

(05:31):
RECs of the year. And yeah, go go listen to
the episode on the dive in movie Cast podcast feed,
because we had a lot to say about it, and
I still don't fully know if I got everything out
that I wanted to say. It's just one of those
movies I could go on and on about for so long.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
No, that's very well said, and we do get into
it deeper, So definitely go check that episode out. But okay, great, Yeah,
as substance for me is like we talked about it,
but it's like my currently my number four of the year,
and then I think it's your number six. But yeah,
oh that's that's all. Like glad to hear you're doing well.
There are some good res so.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
Much stuff now that we fit October too. It's just
like I usually try and do this thing every October
where I watch a horror movie every day. The older
I get, the more hard and challenging that seems to become.
When I was like sixteen, I was like light work,
I can I can do this, no problem. And now
here in twenty four and I have like obligations and
in work and life and friends and I'm just a man.
I need to watch a horror movie every single day.

(06:29):
It's like I'm going to see movies that aren't horror
movies on Monday, and I'm just like, what are you doing?

Speaker 1 (06:34):
How could you? How could you do this?

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Betraying myself? But no, I'm doing great and I've seen
a lot of cool shit. Why do you think audiences
should go see Megalopolis? You were telling me a little bit,
but I haven't seen it yet. Pitch it to me
as if I knew nothing about it.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
I'll flat out say this. It's it's not a good movie,
but happy yeah, No, it's It's got its defenders though,
and I respect it if you have, like if you
do really joint and find and find something in it
that you you know, you personally enjoy. But like I
mentioned earlier, it's like it's one of those movies where

(07:07):
some of the things that are said and some of
the dialogue, some of it is absurd the things that happen.
I'm sure if you, like, you know, follow movie culture,
whatever you've seen like the like the So Go Back
to the Club, like you've seen that stuff. It's just
one of those movies that's like really unintentionally funny, and
like similarly to like how Madam Webb is, Like it's

(07:30):
it's a bad movie, but like sometimes the things that
are said or done are just so ridiculous you can't
help but laugh at it. And it's it's another one
of those where you watch it with a with a
crowd and like everyone laughs at the same things, and
it's just it's just a silly film.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
I'm here for it. Have you ever seen The Room
by Tommy Wizzo?

Speaker 1 (07:50):
You know what this movie? I do know about the movie.
I think I've maybe seen it once. It's I guess
it's similar in that way because some of the line
deliveries are just like ridiculous in that but.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
That's what I'm hearing online is that it's just like
Megalapolis is the Room if it was made by one
of the greatest living directors of all time and he
had like one hundred and twenty million dollars. It's like
a fucking money laundering scam, Like how did this happen?

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah. Something that I'm not understanding from the crowd or
from like reviews that I've seen or like early reactions
is that a lot of people are comparing it to
Revenge of the Sith, like Star Wars episode three, And
I'm like, are you saying that? Like yeah, no, it's yeah,
and like are you saying it like because like visually
it looks similar. There's like a lot of like digital

(08:34):
digital cinematography in this, and I guess like Revenge of
the Sith and pretty much all the prequels are very
much like that. So I don't know that that's like
one bit of criticism that I'm not really understanding, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Interesting, I'm gonna I'm gonna go chick it there later
this week, I think, because I feel like I need
to see it on a theater, one of those movies
where I know that if I don't put my phone
in my pocket on do not disturb and like lock
myself in the dark room and make myself watch it.
I'm gonna, like, I'm not gonna give it the uh
not the respect it deserves, because I don't think it
necessarily is deserving of that. But I need to. I
need to be able to appreciate it and focus on it.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah. Yeah, definitely definitely go check that out. But okay,
so let's uh, let's get into I just have like
one bit of news that I want to get into
before we start talking about Joker. Essentially, there was this
article put out by let's see who put it? Who
put this out? Variety and essentially it's talking about uh

(09:28):
like studios are putting together like super fan focus groups
to uh to like review an upcoming movie or show,
and pretty much they're just looking for like this this
like focus group's input to see if it if they
could avoid like social media backlash. The reason why this
is happening is because of uh, you know, toxic fans,

(09:50):
Like we saw a lot of this with The Acolyte,
And I mean, I'm not going to defend The Acclyte.
It's not a good show, but I think a lot
of I think a lot of the a lot of
the criticism was like disingenuous, just because like some folks
didn't even watch the show and just started hating on
it and it just wasn't a good look. And of course,
like eventually it led to the show's cancelation, which is

(10:12):
which is like insane to me, because I feel like Disney,
like Disney Star Wars and Disney Marvel, have put out
a lot of shows recently on Disney Plus, and a
lot of them are just like will they or won't
they do a season two of this? There are shows
like I don't know, let's say, like Moonnight for example,
pretty pretty you know, average to okay show, or even

(10:35):
like ob One for example, like they got their one season,
but it's up in the air if the if it
will get a season two. But the act Light is
the only one amongst all those that straight up been
like no, we're acting this, like we're not doing this anymore.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
And correct me if I'm wrong. But I feel like
it's the only one of the bunch that straight up
as like sets the seeds for a second season, you know,
like Moon Night is like we could do another one
and that'd be cool, and there's more story to tell.
But I believe like The Acolytes, like Cliffhanger ending like
there is another season clearly to.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Tell, right, Oh yeah, absolutely, it ends like I don't
know if you I don't imagine you're gonna watch it,
I'm gonna give you a light spoiler. Dmon, go Okay,
you remember in uh in Revenge of the Sith, how
it's like how, oh did you ever hear the tragedy
of darth Plagus the Wise? Right? Yeah, so they showed
darth Plagis in the season finale of The Acolyte, so

(11:28):
obviously they wanted to like move forward with something, like
they wanted to use him as a character in the
first season or in the in the second season, if
whatever came to be. I found that like I couldn't
get excited over it just because like like the rest
of the show is kind of ass you know, so
why why would I care about this, you know, no
matter how cool it is? But yeah, I know, like

(11:50):
to go back to like this this focus group, like
they want to try to prevent like social media backlash, right,
But it really depends on who they decide to put
in these focus groups, just because like what if you
did bring on like I feel like the focus group,
if they did they were assembling this, they would have
to do research into who they're bringing on because it
could easily be like one of the toxic fans. And

(12:14):
like if you if you put like a focus group
of just all those like that toxic you know, fandom
part and now they're just like green lighting all the
like all the shitty stuff. You know. Yeah, so it
just like and either way, if if if it's like
a like a toxic content creator, or if it's uh,
someone that's over the moon about every single thing that

(12:37):
this fandom decides to put out. Either way, Like, fans
are fans for a reason. Like I don't think like
you and I could sit in a writer's room and
give like notes on stuff.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Nor do I think we should be able to just
because we like something, you know, Like yeah, like writers
or writers for a reason, they have a more clear
idea of story structure and character development. And you know,
maybe you disagree with a particular plotline or where a
story goes, but that is the story that they are telling.
And when you do something like this, you're stripping not

(13:13):
only the ip of like creative integrity, but like, this
is how we ended up with shit like Rise of Skywalker.
You have a movie that, whether you like it or not,
the Last Jedi takes big swings, does things, has ideas.
Fans didn't like them, and then they screamed at Lucasfilm
and Disney until they were just like, okay, fine, here here, here,

(13:36):
Palpatine is back Ray and Kylo kiss Kylo dies, moving on.
That movie's made by a Reddit forum. This is how
we end up in situations like this is when studios
start to get so scared out of taking a risk
and taking creative decision like putting creative decisions into play,
and then they are so scared of doing that that

(13:56):
now we're just gonna be left with spineless, boring things
written by people who actually have no idea what they're
talking about. I don't feel like we have any superiority
over the actual Star Wars writers. Even if half the
shit they put out recently is not good and I
don't like it, that doesn't mean I'm like, yeah, let
me do that. I could do that better.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, I don't know. I just kind of feel like
if they put like either side of any fandom, like,
I just don't think there's a way where either fan
group will think about something objectively, which is what I
think writers in these rooms do. Like they're like the
fact that they're not super entrenched in these fans and

(14:34):
know everything about it, like they're able to, I guess,
think outside the box in a way, you know, if
that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
No, Like I feel like a good example, and I'm
gonna try and and float this without spoiling anything. Is
actually like the Last of Us for example, Like people
love the Last of Us one, and the Last of
Us two is a story that is extremely divisive and
pissed off a large majority of the fans when when
that game first came out. I feel like if we
had these rooms where they were like, let's see how

(15:01):
people react to these story elements and these plot points,
the entire plot of Lots of Us Too wouldn't exist
because it would just be people who think they know
better than the actual people who made the material being like, ah, no,
we're not gonna like that. And I think that that's
completely redundant and silly and is effectively like an art killer.
I know it sounds dramatic, but like, this is really

(15:22):
how we end up in a situation where all the
things we like have no spine and no guts to
tell the story that they want to tell, good or bad.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, And I feel like, you know, with those type
of like decisions where it gets a reaction with people
that love the people that hate it, it sparks discussion
and conversation. And if everything they make is greenlit by
fans in a writer's room or a focus group, then
it's like everything is safe, you know exactly And what
did say that this is already like like this idea

(15:53):
has been done for years in terms of like like
this is why test screenings are a thing. It's not
like super fans that are getting invited to test screenings.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
The thing about test screenings is that the bones are
all in play, you know, like there's only so much
that can be changed. And I mean like you can
do reshoots and you can play around with the story
structure and take certain elements out, but you're not effectively
rewriting and stopping the entire idea before it makes it
to the screen, Like the idea of these focus groups
like chiming in before it even gets into production and

(16:23):
being like, no, don't do that, We're not gonna like that.
I think it's hilarious. Like test screenings are an effective
and important resource in determining how a story's gonna land,
but it doesn't determine if that story is going to
exist in the first place. You know.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
I don't think it's a good idea.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
I think there's a lot of bad ideas going on
in Hollywood right now. Between AI and and this, I
think everybody's so scared of. I mean, there's a lot
of toxicity in fandom recently, and I think I had
actually made a post on the Dive in the other
day on the story about just talking about I feel
like this year, the vitriol and the intense rage that

(17:01):
I'm seeing from people is a little more dramatic this
year than it has been in previous years. I feel
like each year it gets a little worse. Just the
way that people react to stories in recent memory is
like it's like it's like it killed their family, you know,
like like they don't like a movie, and they're acting
like like they're never going to recover from this. I'm like, guys,
move on, you didn't like it. And I feel like

(17:21):
the idea of fandom overriding creative integrity is dangerous and
just a horrible idea all around.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah, So I don't know, we'll see how it goes.
I guess I actually feel.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Like that that topic ties pretty well into the idea
of Joker Too, because Joker Too, whether you love it
or hate it, Todd p Fielus made the movie he wanted
to make. Do I like it, not really, but Joker Too,
by the standards of what this idea is talking about,
wouldn't exist. The movie wouldn't have been made. Yeah, if
people were able to chime in and be like Joker

(17:53):
and Harley Quinn, musical fans are not going to like that,
we're not doing it, and studios took that seriously.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yeah, the whole idea of the musical bit. I I
kind of feel already like the I think I've read
somewhere like oh, we don't want to market it as
a musical because like people hate musicals, and I'm like,
well that kind of sucks, you know.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Like maybetive in lying.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, Yeah, I don't know, but we'll see. But actually,
before we get into the Joker film, let's just take
a quick break for sabads, all right, and we're back.
Let's talk about the Joker. Joker, fully you do. It's
a follow up to I think Joker one was released
in twenty nineteen, So let's quickly talk about the first

(18:34):
movie though. What did you think? Like, Yeah, what'd you
think about the first Joker film?

Speaker 2 (18:39):
I feel like certain stories will often reach you at
important periods in your life, right, Joker, I think was
a good example of that. Me always being a huge
Batman fan, being a huge comic book fan, and just
a fan of these stories. I as I was starting
to get really into film, is when Joker came out,
like eighteen twenty nineteen is when I was like really

(18:59):
taking this stuff seriously, and I was developing a relationship
with the works of Martin Scorsese and Quentin Tarantino and
you know, all the quote unquote film bro directors that
usually a young guy such as myself around the age
of eighteen or nineteen gets into as like like Baby's
First Director, Right, Joker is a clear riff on a
lot of scorsese work, in particular like The King of

(19:21):
Comedy and like After Hours and like a lot of
his earlier work, and so like The Taxi Driver as well. Yeah,
of course, and so like I think when I saw Joker.
It was at a point where I was really resonating
with these stories from these other directors, and I thought
putting that character in a story like this was a
pretty genius idea. Some will call it copying. I thought

(19:43):
it was just great inspiration. And when I first saw Joker,
I absolutely adored the movie. I saw it in theaters,
and then the next day I brought my whole family
to see it. Fun for the whole family, but no,
I saw the movie twice in two days to emphasize
how much I really liked the film when I first
came out. And I know it was divisive, and I
think it gained more and more of a negative reputation

(20:05):
the more it kind of became associated and connected with
the idea of like white male rage and toxic masculinity
and stuff like that. I know that that's kind of
like the most dramatic side of the fan base, but
it kind of did get lumped into that. I know
there was like police at showings of The Joker because
it was just like this thing that kind of spiraled

(20:25):
out of control where it became associated with like a
weird side of the internet. Anyways, all that to say
that When I first saw the movie, I was very
high on it. I liked it a lot. I thought
it was a powerful character study of what happens when
mental illness is not only not treated, but neglected, and
when somebody is abused by a society that just doesn't
give a fuck about him. And I thought it was

(20:47):
like a cautionary tale and like a worst case scenario, like,
look what can happen to people like this and the
rage that can build up and in people like this.
I thought it was a fantastic movie, and I rewatched
it recently, I don't feel as strongly about that now.
I still quite like it, but like I think, what
I would have called a five star movie, I'm probably

(21:07):
now looking at more like a four star movie, you know,
Like it's it's a very solid and affecting character study
that I think uses the lore of the Joker and
really interesting ways to tell a more large and grand
story about about mental illness. So I was a huge
fan of it.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
No, I'm definitely on the same boat as you. Very similarly,
I was like in twenty nineteen, twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen,
I was very much just like the movies I was
watching was just like IP wasn't really watching like too much,
Like I wasn't like looking for other stuff to see besides,
like you know, the the IP that I was a
fan of, Like when I saw The Joker, like I

(21:47):
had heard it, like you know, they weren't movies i'd
I had yet to see, but I knew that I
had taken inspiration from the older like Scorsese films. So yes,
same here. I was very very high on it. I
was like, oh wow, like I'd never seen a comic
book movie like this before, and yeah, no, I'd like,
like I thought it looked great. It had like a

(22:10):
version of Thomas Wayne that I wasn't familiar with, and
he ends up being like one of the problems and
he never seen a joker like this, and he never
seen someone like quite like I'd never seen someone disappear
into a role the way that Joaquin did in the
in the first film, which we all know he ended
up he went on to win the Oscar for that. Yeah. No,
now now upon rewatch, I'm not as high on it

(22:32):
as I was before, mostly because like I gave myself
time to watch all the things that it took inspiration
of from. So yeah, no. I mean, I think it's
a it's quite surprising to see a movie like that
cross the billion dollar mark. Like it's definitely one of
those movies where I was like, yeah, no, this doesn't
need a sequel. I don't think it'll ever get a sequel.

(22:53):
But that was in twenty nineteen, and then I think
I'm not sure when they announced that it was getting
his sequel, but I was like, I was more so
like oh fuck, like no way, they're actually moving forward this,
Like I'm like genuinely curious about what they want to
do next. And I thought it the film worked without
needing Batman, and I was like, Okay, that's that's interesting too.
I had read about the fact that they wanted to

(23:16):
try to make it a musical, and I was like, oh,
that's kind of weird, but I'm kind of into that,
you know, like I think they're trying to really go
for like a like a creative swing here. But yeah,
so like leading up to it, like and then they
cast Lady Gaga all this, that and the other, I
was like, okay, Like this ended up being when I
made my most Anticipated in twenty twenty four list, like

(23:36):
this was definitely on there. Because it was just I
was in like, like, hype isn't the word that I
would use for it. I was more so like just
I was like, what the fuck could this possibly be?
Like I was like, it could go either way. It
could be terrible or it could be like when like
it's like, oh, they fucking did it again, you.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
Know, like cautiously optimistic sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
So then sure enough, now we're here talking about the
movie like it had rougher views, but still try to
keep an open mind. Let's just get into it. So,
like you know, the first movie ends, he kills Murray Franklin.
They send him off to Arkham, and that's where that's
where we're spending most of the time. It's in Arkham.
It's also they try to do like a courtroom drama

(24:18):
with it. I know you're a little bit lower on
the movie, but like, let's try to like talk about
some positives here, like mine, I don't have a ton,
but let's just try to be positive about the movie first.
So do you have any positives to say about it?

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yes? Okay, So, like Waquin Phoenix is an incredible actor,
has proven many many many times, but in particular as
proven in twenty nineteen Joker. I think that continues to
be the case here. I think his performance is much
more deserving of a better movie. And I guess the

(24:54):
thing is that movie is that movie exists. It's called
twenty nineteen Joker. Yeah, but let's be positive. So I
feel like Joaquin Phoenix is doing a lot of fun
stuff with the character of Arthur Fleck. That like, he
continues to expand on him in interesting ways through subtle mannerisms,
through his behavior, and also just the way he goes

(25:15):
about playing this character in especially in the courtroom sequences.
I feel like, like I didn't love the whole courtroom drama.
I did for it, but I feel like when he's
in those scenes, the way he's like kind of hamming
it up and really leaning into the Joker persona I
thought was really interesting and I thought that he did
a great job continued in this film. Lady Gaga, I
feel like is really good. She's underutilized, but like every

(25:36):
time Lee was on the screen, she's kind of got
a magneticism to her. Like, Lady Gaga is just a
compelling actress, like a star is born. Is incredible. She's
not so great in how Saguchi, but like I'm always
like rooting for her or and excited to see what
she does. And I thought she was good in this movie,
underutilized but really good. And then you know, of course,
technically the film looks wonderful. The score is a great

(25:58):
expansion of the pieces composed for the original film, same composer,
I believe as well. Yeah, and I think the movie
does a really good job building upon the scores and
kind of making them a little more dramatic and over
the top to match this new theatricality of the second film.
And then the cinematography is is still absolutely top notch.
Like the movie looks great, like it's it's hard to

(26:18):
take that away from it. There's a lot of scenes
I saw in Imax where it just it looks phenomenal,
whether it's tapping into the the musical visual aesthetic or
like this gritty, disgusting Arkham aesthetic. I thought that the
movie managed to always technically impress, and I think that
like first movies, it is very technically impressive too, and

(26:40):
this one is no exceptional. It still looks and functions
as a great movie.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, I know, I think Joaquin definitely like he's just
back in the role, like like he never left it.
Like it's it's almost like they filmed the movies like
back to back, you know.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, yeah I thought that too.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, no, no issues for me. For the entire cast,
there are generally some bits like like where Lady Gaga
like with some of the musical sequences, and we'll talk
about the musical sequences a little more in a bit,
but that like that, there was like maybe like one
or two songs where she's just doing the Lady Gaga
thing and you just hear her talk about interviews where
she says she has to like unlearn how to sing.

(27:16):
There's like two songs around like no, this is literally
just you, but but it's still but it's still like
like you're still charmed by it. You know, you almost
forget like you know, all the all the negative stuff
that we'll get into. But yeah, no, the whole cast
is is pretty fun. Like I especially like what's his name,
Brendan Gleason.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
Brendan Gleason. Yeah, he's a he's a fun addition to
this movie. I feel like, I mean, he's just a
guard at Arkham, but he does manage to bring some
interesting screen presence to.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
That character, and I was honestly surprised to hear like
I almost thought he was about to get like his
own musical number because he sings like, you know, not
a ton, but he sings in this Let's see here
another positive, I have you pretty much touched on this,
but I think the like set design, and I think
a lot of the sets are pretty fun, especially during

(28:03):
some of the musical numbers. Everything is just well, like technically,
everything is really well put together, like dance choreography is fine,
the music, the musical numbers, like, everything looks great and
yeah the score, same person, like they won an Oscar
for that. Fantastic visuals. I last time you were here,
he talked about Dead Pole and Wolverine. I think this this, like,

(28:24):
you know, visually, it blows Dead Poll and Wolverine out
of the water. I think direction in cinematography, there's nothing
technically wrong.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
That's the thing too, it's I think the most frustrating
thing about the movie is that, like when you're talking
about positives, it's really easy to like pull a whole
heap of things out and be like this this this,
like there's there's things here that are that are good.
I think anybody who's acting like this is like a
total like half star out of five. It's like they're
being a little dramatic, Like there's there's impressive things here,

(28:52):
Like Todd Phillips knows how to how to shoot this movie,
Like he knows how to how to make it look
like what he wanted to look like. The problem all
come from other other places.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
So since we're on the like, since we were bringing
up Todd Phillips, uh, and let's let's just start getting
into negatives now. Like I briefly mentioned this when we
were talking about Joker, but like, you know, it didn't
need a sequel, right, And to me, I think a
lot of people are saying how Todd Phillips is kind
of saying fuck you to the fans and like kind

(29:23):
of giving the fans the middle finger, you know, but
I think this is more so him like saying fuck
you to the studio, Like because I think I think
Todd Phillips is kind of Joker made a billion dollars,
so the studio thought they can cash in on another billion.
They came to Todd Phillips be like, can you squeez
out another sequel? And it was him telling us like Hey,

(29:43):
I don't think this movie needed a sequel either, but
I'm gonna just you know, make the studio happy. I'm
gonna get the bag so that they won't ask me
for another film ever. Again. Like that's that's kind of
what this what it felt like to me, And so
now like that's what we got. Like he put out
like this very like narratively confusing story. I really feel

(30:05):
like like I was really looking forward to the musical
portion of this. Ultimately the musical bits doesn't work. Like
I don't think any of the songs work with the
story that's trying to tell. Like I mentioned earlier, there's
like one or two songs where like I actually really
enjoyed it, Like I really liked that song, Like it's
nothing crazy happening, but it's just them doing a duet
of this Beg's song. And I think I only liked

(30:25):
this scene mostly because I liked the song. You know, No,
I think the musical bits really don't work for it.
And while I said the set pieces and the musical
bits are everything as well put together, they it just
really doesn't make any any sense. And yeah, the pacing
is pretty rough. I honestly found myself almost falling asleep
at some points. It's kind of slow, it's really hard

(30:47):
to engage with, Like all the courtroom stuff is kind
of lame. But I really like the one where they're interviewing,
like the one that witnessed one of the murders. I
forget his name, but yeah, Gary Puddles, Gary Puttles. Yeah,
I thought that was a pretty good one. That's pretty
good scene.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
You know, my favorite scene of the movie, to be
fully honest with you, I thought it was like extremely powerful,
and I think it's the only moment in the movie
that made me feel even a fraction of what the
first movie was capable of making me feel. I think it's, yeah,
extremely sad to see somebody who's already been beat down
and neglected by the world around him and then the
only person he found comfort in kind of ending up

(31:25):
becoming his his his nightmare, you know, like his night terror.
I think that's like a really upsetting idea. And I
think that that actor does a home run in that scene.
It's like he knows, like, I don't have a big
role in this movie, but I am gonna make a
I'm gonna make a meal out of it because I
felt like I was watching a different movie while I
watched that scene, Like I was like really into that
scene and it's upsetting and it's powerful. But going off

(31:47):
what you said about like the musical stuff, like I
am a massive fan of movie musicals when they're when
they're done right, Like a lot of my favorite movies
are musical. And so when it was announced that they
were doing a Joker in Hardley Qui a musical, like
everybody who revolted against that and was like that's a
horrible idea. I'm like, yeah, but if there's any character
who's gonna have a musical, it would be these two, right,

(32:09):
Like they're insane, Like that's enough right there to just
shrug it off as like everything that we're seeing is
their delusions were in their head, like they're they're singing
as a way to show their shared delusion. The movie
does nothing with that premise, with the musical idea. Like
I was talking with the person I saw it with,
and we were we brought up the idea that just
it would have been so easy to have them just

(32:30):
like go full over the top, like over like theat
like theatricality, like singing in the rain, like La la Land,
you know, like stuff like this, like and I feel
like it's so easy, like it was right there have
them tear up the town and sing their way through
the town as they do it, and just, I don't know,
to me, it felt like a pretty hard thing to

(32:51):
mess up if you're gonna do the musical, Like I
thought it would be fairly easy to get it right.
But all these musical members, aside from visually looking good,
are so boring and dull. They're so drab. A lot
of it's just walking Phoenix and lady guy guy like
standing in rooms and just kind of like staring at
each other and just slow singing. There's no power or
like enthusiastic energy to any of it. It's all just

(33:15):
kind of paint by the numbers singing. And so that
was I think the biggest thing off the Rip that
like shocked me is I was like, how do you
make this movie based on the gimmick of We're gonna
do joker about a musical and then make the musical
part of it the least interesting part of the movie.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
And it feels like it was one of those things where,
like I know, most musicals, like they they will randomly
break out into song and like that that's like that's
kind of like the whole point they just start singing
out of nowhere. But with this I kind of feel
like they they did break out the song, and it's
like during the middle of what is almost like an

(33:50):
engaging scene, you know, like when they're whenever they're talking
about something, it's like, Oh, I'm invested in whatever the
fuck they're talking about, and then they start singing. I'm like, Okay, well,
now all the moment is like gone, and the song itself,
it's not the song itself sucks, but it's just like
it's just an oddly placed like placing this song right
here right smack dad in the middles conversation just doesn't

(34:13):
really work, And that like kind of goes back to
like the pacing issue of the movie. It's like there
are scenes in this that are completely functional as they are,
like they work.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
You know, not good, but they're functional, and then the
movie just feels the need to throw the musical aspect
in there, almost like it got made on the idea
of it being a musical, but most people watching this
don't want it to be a musical, so it often
does this weird thing where like people's investment in the scene,
regardless of who you are, is just completely pull out

(34:43):
because the musical numbers aren't good and they're just interrupting
what was otherwise like almost a finished scene. So I
don't know, I found it to be unfortunately, very distracting
and jarring, and like, again, I have no problem with
characters bursting out into song and dance in a movie,
like if I know I'm up for musical and I'm
prepared for it, like it doesn't bother me all that much,

(35:04):
but it just felt empty. The musical idea felt empty,
and a bunch of other ideas felt empty that we'll
get into. But that part I felt to be the
weirdest misfire of the whole movie was how do you
sell us a joker at Harley Quick Musical and then
make the musical part bad?

Speaker 1 (35:20):
You know? And I feel like they really had a
chance because it's almost like sometimes in I can't like
pull specifics from like the animated Batman series, but I'm
sure like that Joker and Harley like broke out into
song often. So yeah, I don't know, it's interesting because
like it's crazy that this movie cost two hundred million

(35:43):
dollars to make, and there's not like like this feels
like a less than one hundred million dollar movie. So
I feel like the fact that it that it is
a jukebox musical and the fact that Lady Ga Ga
is in it, that's where like most of the budget goes.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
You know, that price tag makes it sense to me.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
I don't know how on how we got there, but no,
the movie is, uh, it's a bummer for sure, But
I don't feel as like as passionate I think is
the word I'm looking for, because like I don't think
I really I've really despised it. It's more so the
reason why I have it like kind of rated pretty
low is because like this feels like the studio like it.

(36:25):
It feels like desperately, like the studio feels desperate and
wanting to like cash another billion, and it just like
it's just like a swing and a miss. You know, Yeah,
it doesn't. It doesn't justify its existence.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
I'd say, like, I feel like, on one hand, it's
a bold swing that I've only come to like minorly
appreciate in the days following my screening. But on the
other hand, like I didn't like the movie, like I
respect it on a bold like how do you get
this shit made?

Speaker 1 (36:49):
Level?

Speaker 2 (36:50):
But my biggest problem with it is that it's it's boring.
The pacing is is horribly structured. The courtroom scenes are
mostly unengaging aside from select moments, and it feels like
Todd Phillips heard all like though we live in a
society male rage side of the fan base, and felt
the need to be like, no, I don't like this guy.
Fuck this guy. We're not supposed to root for him.

(37:11):
And to the people who did root for him, they're
gonna watch this movie and they're gonna be like pissed off.
But then to the to the people with functional brains
who weren't rooting for him because he's a bad guy,
it just it feels it feels redundant, and it's like
an old man yelling at the clouds. Like I think
most people know I know watched Joker and did not
take away that like he was sick and that like

(37:32):
we should be doing that. Like I don't think Joker
ever was like a cheer for rebellion. It was like
a cautionary tale. So it feels very weird to have
Todd Phillips being like actively sitting us down and being like,
but he's a bad guy. You know, he's a bad guy,
And I'm like, yeah, I knew that in the first movie, man,
Like I got the point. And it feels like he's

(37:53):
made this two and a half hour movie just to
reiterate that Arthur Fleck is a bad person. But like,
I knew that from the second Joker's credits rolled in
twenty nineteen. So I don't know. It just feels completely
empty because of that, like it leads it to have
it's got so many ideas, but it doesn't know what
to do with any of them, and ultimately, like the

(38:15):
lack of focus on any of its ideas lead it
to feel completely useless.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
I like how you said that that, like, Okay, he's
supposed to be a villain, right and you're not supposed
to root for him. I think a good example of
painting your main character like they are, like they're just
not a good person. But it has it's focused in
on that idea is doom, like both Dune movies, like

(38:40):
Paul Trady's not a good guy.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
You know, when you get to the reveal at the
in the later half of Doom Part two, it's just
like holy fuck, Like the realization that like you've been
following not I wouldn't necessarily call the antagon it's but
certainly not the hero of the story. Like you can
do that idea very well, it's been done this.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Year very well.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Well hm, and so yeah continue sorry.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Oh no, like you're you're hitting it, hitting it on
the head. It has I like, it just has unfocused ideas.
You know. It's like it's it's just one of those
scenarios where it's like, yeah, this is this does like
in theory, this is a good idea but executed poorly.
Dune has the same idea, but it's like honed in on,
you know, for one, letting the audience understand that Paul

(39:24):
is not a good guy, but like, how are you
gonna like conta, like how do you how do you
like expand upon it?

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Like you can do that plot point without like holding
the audience's hand. It feels like Todd Phillips is like
sitting me down, like shaking me, and he's just like
you know he's bad, Like you're aware he's bad. I'm like, yeah, dude,
I'm so aware, Like is that all you have to
say here is that the f is a is a
bad dude, because that's been fairly obvious all along. I mean,
like he's sitting in a from the moment we see

(39:52):
him at the beginning of Folly You Do, he's sitting
in a prison cell for murdering five people. I don't
understand what we're doing. Did anybody watch that and be like,
that's my guy, That's that's the hero. Like I just
it feels silly, And also like I I guess I
take up more issue too with the way that the
movie kind of completely wastes Lady Gaga, like, if you're

(40:14):
gonna do the joker in Harley Quinn's story, do it right?
Like I like, I feel like the movie does it.
And maybe it's even more of Todd Phillips is like,
fuck you. You want me to do the joker in
Harley Quinn's story, but I'm not gonna do it, and
it's just annoying an edgy. But like she's here and
then immediately their love story is like kind of rushed,

(40:36):
Like considering the movie has like a whopping two hour
and twenty minute runtime and it doesn't really seem like
it's doing much with much of that run time, like
he meets Harley Quinn, she meets him, and then like
that's that like and I guess like that's kind of
the point, is like this magneticism, like she she sees
something in him and it is compelled to it. But
it felt like very empty in the way that they

(40:58):
they meet each other and then they're just like singing
and breaking out of prison, and then it's none of
us fleshed out. Her character's just there, and her motives
are never clearly established, and her as a person is
never clearly established. Aside from she's a liar and she
is in Arkham simply because she checked herself in and
then checked herself out. It doesn't really go anywhere with

(41:19):
her character aside from she's compelled to Arthur Fleck because
of his anarchy. I don't I'm not really sure. The
movie doesn't really care to tell you. And then weirdly enough,
she like leaves the movie in the second hour, like
she kind of pops in and out for like brief
little scenes, but like she's kind of just like sitting
in the back of the courtroom through it like the

(41:40):
entire second hour of the movie, and just like saying nothing.
I just don't understand how the movie was sold and
pitched as a Joker and Harley Quinn musical and then
it doesn't do any of that, Like the Joker in
Harley Quinn's story is absolute bare minimum there, and then
it just becomes a courtroom drama. And I'm like, that's
all right if you wanted to make the courtroom drama,
but you didn't need to pack it behind all this

(42:00):
other fat you know.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
I think the movie either had to be and I
felt I kind of feel like I'm going back on
what I said earlier when we were talking about the whole,
like like we shouldn't try to write the movie, but
I think it either needed to lean into like making
musical and have it take place in Arkham only, you know,

(42:22):
or have them into chaos in the courtroom and into
chaos and Gotham, and both of those ideas as a musical,
they those both sound like decent ideas, you know. Yeah,
I don't know. Another disappointing thing too, is like there
there's a lot of like stuff that's shown in promo
material that's just not in the movie. I'm like, what

(42:45):
the fuck.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
The shot of them like doing the dance on the staircase. Yeah,
there because Todd Phillips knows the people like that scene
and that they can sell it on that.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
I feel like that the need, that need that it
needed to be in the movie, Like that needs to
be in the movie, you know.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
I feel like that's like kind of what I wanted
it to be, was like and like I get the point.
I know what we're doing. I like, I'm aware that
it's like a morality thing where it's trying to make
you feel bad about ever caring about this guy, like
he's he's a loser and he's a bad person. I'm aware,
but like, I think the more interesting version of this
movie is fully embracing the musical elements and just having

(43:21):
them be bad people and got theam and like, I
don't know, like I just I feel as if that
like like exactly what you said, like that scene should
have been there. And when I when I thought of it,
when I imagined it as this musical, I kind of
just thought it would be like evil twisted love story
told through the through a musical lens, and it's not

(43:41):
that at all, And so like I agree wholeheartedly. I
feel like there was many missing scenes that were the
scenes I think people were interested in seeing.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
Well, also, thinking on it, it's like I kind of
feel like that that's also like a different version of
the movie too, Like if you included that scene, it's
almost like under the assumption that Arthur winns the case.
Like narratively, I don't think that scene would have fit
in the movie at all, unless it's just him like
just leaving the courtroom and then he's like they're taking
him back to prison or something. You know. I feel

(44:10):
like there's a different version of this movie that exists
out there that was like shot and filmed, you know,
because there's also a scene where Lady Gaga is like
doing a dance to sing and dance down down the
original Joker steps and that's not in the movie. And
like there's also a scene of her where like is
also going down that same elevator before he does the
dance down the stairs in the original Joker movie. I

(44:32):
feel like something happened behind the scenes that like we
just got like a bad cut of it or something.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
No, I agree, but also like they I've read that
the studio was very hands off, like they didn't tamper
with this movie, like this is the movie Todd Phillips
wanted to do. Yeah, it just feels like a huge
creative misfire, Like it's just he took a swing, and
I think it was the wrong swing. Making a film
to subvert the audience expectations of your character is one thing,

(45:00):
but actively making a story that lands with a thud
on purpose to piss people off is tedious and frustrating.
Like I'm all for going the opposite direction with the story,
then what people wanted the direction to be, Like that's
it's called creativity, and whether you like it or not,
that's what it is. It feels like to me as
a viewer, like he's actively mad at someone, whether it's

(45:25):
the fan base or the studio or something, and he's
taken that out on the movie, which isn't a pleasant
vieuni experience. I don't want to watch Your middle Finger,
you know, like I want to watch I want to
watch the movie. And so it ultimately just feels stumbling
on my words here, But it just feels like a
waste of time watching Todd phillips two hundred million dollar

(45:47):
middle Finger, Like I just I have no interest in
being a part of that.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, no, I agree, well said, let's talk about the
ending though. The final like five ish ten minutes. So
it ends up being that, you know, obviously Arthur Flyke
has found guilty and like this is like the ending
of the courtroom is like him admitting that, like, oh,
I'm just a bad person. I'm not the joker, like
we're one and the same or whatever the fuck that

(46:11):
that's essentially what the what the courtroom drama is about.
It's like someone that's defending him trying to convince the
jury that jokers displait personality and they're trying to get
him off on that. And so it goes on and
he like starts to lose and tries to represent himself. Anyways,
the ending, like at one point during the court the
courtroom scene, when he's like representing himself, he like talks

(46:33):
shit about the guards and eventually they set it up.
They set it up for Arthur to get killed. He
he gets stabbed and bleeds out and dies, and the
person that does the does the stabbing. It's it's assumed
that like, oh no, this guy is like the real
joker or he's just trying to like carry on the
title because without the movie, like there are people who

(46:57):
want him to be the Joker, right, that's like the
whole point of Lady Gaga's character. She like wants him
to like own up to it, and then that's why
she like his full personality.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, And Lady Gaga is like, that's why she breaks
up with him in the movie because like he's no
longer like leaning into the Joker persona. And so he
gets killed and the guy has like a similar like
insane like Joker laugh. It's out of focus and he
can't really see it, but he like starts carving up
his face like carved. He starts carving a smile into
his face, like similar to how he Fledger's Joker looks.

(47:29):
I really hope they're not trying to connect those two,
Like I think that I really hope that's not what
they try they're trying to go for, but that's essentially
what happens. I'll be honest with you, I don't hate
this ending. I thought that it was like I feel
like Todd Films was trying to say, like like even
though like like I kind of mentioned earlier that I
didn't want to make this sequel, maybe he didn't want

(47:51):
to make this sequel more gonna get made like anyway,
you know, and that was that was like the point
of this ending. But yeah, so I thought it was.
I mean, if anything, it just signals that like Arthur
Fleck is no more and Todd Phillips isn't gonna make
another one.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
So it's him wiping his hand clean and being like,
do not ask me to make another Chilger movie.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
Like I'm good, Like we're done here, it's over. I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
I don't hate the ending because of its ideas. I
hate the idea or the ending because of how it
just like rushed and out of know where.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
It feels like it's just like it's just there for
like shock.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, it's like all right, he's back in prison. We
don't really know how to end this movie.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
It's just killing that.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
And like again like I think, did I did I
miss something about the guards setting that up?

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Like I don't think they show it and it's not said.
I think it's just implied just because like you know,
how he talks about them and then they like beat
the fuck out of him in the in the in
the showers or whatever. And I think that just kind
of sets it up that like like, Okay, the guards
hate him now and they're just trying to get rid
of him in the end, and so that guard calls
him and say like, hey, you have a visitor. Just

(48:57):
come with me and follow me. And then I'm guessing
or I'm assuming that like the guards also like linked
up with an inmate and like, okay, hey, I'm gonna
bring him to this hallway and once he's alone, just
stab him.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
I like that the callback to you get what you
fucking deserve. I think that that's. Yeah, I think that's
a good callback because it is him getting what he deserves,
you know, like especially after he very clearly embraces like
I'm just a bad person who did bad shit. Like
having that kind of come full circle, I think is
an interesting idea. And I also I feel as if,

(49:30):
like I hope, like like you said, I hope they're
not trying to connect the idea of like this is
the real Joker now like the Joker inspired by being
like a sad loser, he inspired the real Joker to
be the clown Prince of crime. I hear it, I
get it. I think it's unnecessary. There's also other tie
it ties into Batman lore, like when the courthouse it

(49:51):
gets blown up by jokers followers, Harvey Dent is there.
He's kind of like the lead prosecutor in the courtroom
drama side of the story, and his face does get
scarred up like two face. So like there's little bits
of candy for people who like this stuff, but ultimately
it's all useless and it means nothing. So it yeah
like those things like somebody in my crowd like gasped

(50:13):
when that happened, and then I'm like, we're not going
to see this version of Harvey Dent ever again, Like
this means nothing. And ultimately that's how I feel about
the ending too, is just like if this is the
actual joker, who cares? You know, Like I don't know.
I think that the ending has some interesting ideas about
like the continuous cycle and how this is just something
that's going to continue and continue, and how people are

(50:34):
inspired by other people's violence. I think that there's ideas there,
but they're only ideas and they're all pretty half baked.
I hated the ending when I first saw the movie,
not because Arthur died. I didn't care that Arthur died.
I just thought it was a lazy ending.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
Yeah, I hear that, But.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
Now I'm more I'm more willing to like look at
it and see what it's trying to get at a
little bit.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
Now, I'll be honest to you. Like, since we're talking
about like Batman lore, I do like when a comic
book movie kind of feels like it's almost like you
could swap these characters out with is like regular like
if they weren't like like the title superhero name, like
you could swap them out with just like a crazy
person and it's still kind of the same movie, you

(51:15):
know what I mean. I do like and I think
that's mostly because I didn't realize, well, I don't read
any comic books really, so like there's not a version
of characters that I know about, or like I don't
have like an idea of what a character should like
should be according to comics. I think that's why I
was also like pretty cool with the first Joker movie,

(51:38):
just because like, oh, there's like a different version of
a character. They're trying to make their make up their
own thing, because he's not like the you know, the
clown Prince of Prime, clown Prince of crime. You know
what I mean, he's just like very mentally sick person,
but ultimately, like this movie is just kind of like
just kind of throws all that out the out the window.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, I don't know, and I can't, and I have
to emphasize how good Joaquin here is, Like he does
sell a lot of this movie even when the movie
itself isn't working around him.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Yeah, I'm so.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Engaged and compelled by his portrayal of Arthur Fleck as
like this monstrous character who manages to just charm and
convince everyone around him that what he did wasn't as
evil as what he did. I find this version of
the character to be really, really compelling. I just think

(52:28):
that it all ties back to what you said earlier
in the episode, which is just like there's no clearer
example of a movie that didn't need a sequel than
Joker twenty nineteen. That movie ends in a perfect spot
where it has the audience questioning like the sense of
reality in this world, this character and where he's headed
his psyche Like it leaves every it puts everything down,

(52:50):
but it doesn't give you too much where like everything's
clearly answered and defined for it, you're still able to
make questions and drop ideas of your own, and this
movie is just beating you over the head with like
concrete evidence of like what this character is and his
morality and all this stuff, and it just it takes
any sense of ambiguity and an intrigue out of out

(53:11):
of the original film. Yeah, but no, I agree with
you in the sense that, like I'm into the idea
of like these stories being focused around comic book characters
without being too like tightly connected to it. Like Todd
Phillis got this movie made because he wanted to make
a Martin Scorsese homage, but it didn't have the budget
to do it, so he just pitched as a DC movie.
Like he's been pretty forthcoming about that too. He's literally

(53:33):
been like I just wanted to make this story, and
like I didn't know how to get a finance, so
I made it about the Joker. I just I get
this feeling that just like he did this for the
bag And yeah, and when you're watching a movie that
feels this lifeless, like when it's this evident that he
just needed a paycheck and he also just wanted to
flip off all the people who misinterpreted his original movie.

(53:55):
It just it leaves it feeling.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
It feels reactionary, right.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
Yeah, exactly exactly. It feels almost like he's just responding
to a pretty loud but small corner of the internet.
Like I don't think I already mentioned this, but there's
not a whole lot of there's not a like huge
contingent of people who watched Joker and were just like,
that is the mascot for everything I want to be
in life. Like there's people out there, sure, there definitely is,

(54:20):
but they are not like the core audience of that movie.
And so to make this whole movie that feels like,
like you said, reactionary to that idea, it's just a
waste of time. I wanted this movie to be good
so bad I.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
Was Yeah, No, I really wanted to I wanted to
love it same.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
I was really rooting for it. I was like fairly
excited when I sat down in that theater, like me
and my friend were like, let's let's do this. This
could be really cool, and it ultimately just goes nowhere
with anything.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
Big idea is no execution, And it's just kind of
funny how like this came out when it did, because
we currently have like it this kind of feels like
a like an ongoing trend when it comes to like
comic book ip stuff that comes to mind is pretty
much all this sony villain, like all the Spider Man
sony villain movies without Spider Man, you know, like people

(55:05):
are just trying to build movies around their villains, and
like most of those Sony movies aren't good, you know,
And I feel like this, this Joker sequel kind of
falls within that vein, you know, because all of them
are very like, like what the fuck is this and
why does this exist? But it's funny to have a
show like, uh, like two DC properties, two DC villains

(55:26):
have their own thing going on right now. So Joker sequel,
we have this movie, and then we also have the
show The Penguin, which is like a spin off of
Matt Reeves Batman. And never would I have thought that
The Penguin is a better show than a Joker movie,
you know.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
Yeah, that's the power of the Matt Reeves Batman universe.
He's he's built up really cool there, and it just
man like, the Penguin is a character that I don't
think many people were like itching for a show for,
but absolutely not the episodes I've seen, I'm like really
into it so far. Whereas and that that's because you
can tell there's passion there and there's genuine ideas that
people are excited you to do and to tell. And

(56:08):
this is the I think, the complete inverse of that.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
Yeah, I agreed with all that. I just love that
Penguin is like it somehow made its way to be
to become appointment TV. It has a weird air schedule.
It's like like the premiere was on a Thursday and
now it airs on Sunday nights. But Sunday night TV
is always is always the best. But now I look
forward to tuning in. I don't have to be honestly,

(56:32):
I don't have a ton to say about the Penguin.
I can just tell you that it rolls and you should.
You should watch it, Like if if you're a fan
of the Batman, then you should see the Penguin for sure.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
We were talking about the idea of just like doing
a Penguin episode, and now I was just like, ah, man,
I don't got much more to say aside from this
shit's sick, you know, like it's it's very cool, It's
very cool. I'm like really into.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
It, you know what, almost like it keeps on slipping
my mind because like, of course Colin Farrell is great
in it. But the actress that portrays Falcone, I forget
her name. Sofia, is it Sofia?

Speaker 2 (57:07):
Oh yes, I can't remember the actress's name. But the
mother from High much your mother?

Speaker 1 (57:11):
I didn't, I've not I don't think I've seen her
in anything else. But yeah, no, she she's very good
in this. But it slips my mind that Sophia and
Catwoman are are related.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
Ah yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
Actually, so like people are like trying to draw like
parallels between the two, and like those are just you know,
two really great like female characters in Batman and Matt
Reeves Batman universe. So yeah, so yeah, I yeah, it's
just a little random note there.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
No, I think that's cool, and I'm so excited to
see like where the Penguin Show goes. I like what
Matt Reeves has done with this universe. I mean, I
know he's not fully in charge of the show. I
think he's just producer on the Penguin Show, but you know,
he's done a good job building the Batman character up.
When while watching the Penguin. Like there's a couple of
scenes at nighttime, and I'm just like, I got this

(58:01):
weird gut feeling that like Batman's around the corner.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
He's like lurking.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Yeah, he's like lurking, which is exactly like the whole
point of Pattinson's Batman is just like he's he's stalking.
But just like it's it's really cool that just like
I don't expect to see Batman in the show. I
highly highly highly debt we're going to. But I think
it's interesting that he just his presence is kind of inescapable.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
But to go back to Joker, any any closing thoughts,
maybe a score?

Speaker 2 (58:26):
Yeah, well I'm curious. Actually, do you feel like this
movie would have worked better as a full on musical,
a full on evil, chaotic love story, or a courtroom drama,
because the movie's trying to be many things. But which
version of the movie worked best for you?

Speaker 1 (58:38):
I think a version that I would have liked. I
definitely liked the musical aspect because I think that's just
like a I don't think there are any comic book
movie musicals, and just honestly, the idea of like an
mcu musical sounds terrible, but like I think a comic

(58:59):
book movie music only really works if you do involve
characters like who are insane, like Joker and Harley. I
think the version that I would have liked to see
is if they like scrap the courtroom drama and if
they like like there's a moment in the film where
you almost feel like they're gonna break out of Arkham
right like they try, well I don't know if they

(59:20):
if try is really the word, but like there's a
fire inside and like they they go outsides of the
prison yard and they're trying to climb the fence but
they don't make it. Over them escaping and then just
like absolute chaos and Gotham with them eventually getting like
locked up again in Arkham or something, or like something
happening to them. I don't know that that would have

(59:41):
been a version that I would have liked to see
of them doing like crazy crime shit.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
I fully agree, and I feel like that version of
the movie just sounds more fun. I think it allows
it to go darker, Like I think the thing, I mean,
this movie's pretty dark, but they're all in like a
very like grounded courtroom drama sense. I feel like the
idea of just watching them do bad shit while singing
about it and then ultimately like you can still kill
them both they like, you can still kill him, like

(01:00:06):
they can die like at the end of the movie
some big grand musical number and then and then they die,
right and you can you honestly still could have done
the idea of like them getting put back in prison
and then him getting killed by someone he inspired who
ultimately may or may not be the Joker. Like that idea,
you can literally still use it, and you could have

(01:00:27):
put it in a better movie. So I think that
I agree with you. Like the idea of a full on, frenetic,
over the top musical where they're just tearing sit up
and doing crime shit and Gotham and singing about it
sounds fun. And again, like, she doesn't need to wear
the Harley Quinn costume. That's not what I want from
this movie. He doesn't need to put on the Joker suit,
like it's I think that the movie could exist completely

(01:00:50):
as it is with like these depictions of these characters
in this kind of gritty, grounded, realistic way, while fully
embracing the more silly and over the top to the
music of the movie musical that they clearly wanted to do,
so I don't know why they didn't put a little
more effort into doing it a little bit better.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
No, Okay, so now I'm going back on it, and
I'm just like, you know, playing with my imagination now.
But like, like remember in the film, there's I think
it's like a dream sequence where I think Arthur kills
Harvey and he also kills the judge. Yeah, Like I think,
like if you wanted to keep elements of the courtroom
in there, like let that actually happen, but agreed, and

(01:01:31):
then and and then he gets broken out by his
followers or whatever, and then they just go nuts in
the city and still have like the musical elements of it.
And then you could also still include them dancing down
the courtroom steps like that. Yeah. No, that that sounds
great to me.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Actually, now we're gonna piss ourselves off because we're we're
we're going back on what we said earlier about how
fans shouldn't be able to craft the plot for movies.
But we're not crafting the plot for a movie. We're
simply brainstorming a version that we would have liked more.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
I think, you know what, fuck it put us in
those focus Yeah, you know what, I go back on
everything I said, make me the writer. I can give
all the writers notes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
I changed my mind. The focus group idea is a
good idea.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Yeah, No, I'm in. I'm all in as long as
I can be there. Yeah, if it doesn't include us,
then never mind.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
I take it back. But no, I think that that
sounds really fun, and I think that that's kind of
exactly what I totally would have wanted from this movie.
It's what I was expecting, and I'm not. I don't
hate this movie because it wasn't what I was expecting.
I'm always willing to take something for what it is.
I took it for what it is, and I didn't
like it. You know, It's just I don't know, I'm

(01:02:38):
just uh, I was just bored. Like that's I think
that's the worst in a movie can commit. To be
honest with you, It's like I've always said that a
bad movie can still it can be bad, but if
it's entertaining, or if it's at least like watchable, then
I'm gonna have something of a good time. But like
I think the worst in a movie can commit is
to bore you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
And mm hmmm.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
That kind of the issue I had with with falia Do.
It's like I was checking my watch four times, like
four or five times. I was like, what time?

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Yeah, Yeah, he's still going long. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
It's also worth noting too that this movie has is
twenty minutes longer than Joker and says significantly less than
the original film did with more run time. But yeah,
if we're doing scores wrapping up thoughts on the movie,
I'm gonna give falia Do a two out of five.
I feel pretty let down by it. I wanted it
to be great. Unfortunately, it's just it didn't really work

(01:03:31):
for me on any levels aside from visually and great
acting performances, but they're not enough to save it. Joaquin
is trying, He's almost convincing you at times that he's
capable of saving it, especially when he's having the time
of his life in the courtroom and just hamming it
up as Arthur. It's it's pretty entertaining, but it's it's
a small burst of entertainment in a pretty dour, end

(01:03:51):
and lifeless movie.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
Yeah, So as far as my score, I'm definitely a
little higher than you. I have had a three out
of five, and three out of five for me is
it's not a great score. If you do the math
on that, that's like it that's like a d effort.
That's sixty percent.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
True, and it means you liked it when you didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
No, I was definitely falling asleep. Yeah, that's fair to
say I liked it more than I didn't. But at
the end of the day, it's it's still I still
feel like I don't know, it's it's too much of
like a like a fuck you to either the fans
or or the studio. Yeah, I know. I think three
for me is still like three out of five.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Yeah, No, I feel like that's that's a that's a
score that's like representative of like there were things I liked,
but also a lot I didn't, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
Yeah, I mean the bad does that weigh the good?

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
Like there are elements I like here, but I often
I won't lie. I feel a little bit like I'm
grasping at straws to pull things I like to beyond
technical elements.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
I think it's Yeah, for me, it's just the technical
elements for sure that I liked that. That kind of
like make me forget about the bad. But it doesn't
mean I liked the movie, right, No, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
I don't I know what you mean. I know what
you mean.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
God, letterbox ratings will like really twist my brain up.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
People are tearing this movie apart. It's I saw it
on Monday at the fan screening and I was like
a little bit restless waiting to see if I was
insane or if everybody else felt the same way as me.
And so it's like a little bit validating to know that,
like generally people don't.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
Like this movie. It definitely doesn't have you know, you
can do you can rate a movie on letterbox and
you have the heart that you liked it. It didn't
get the heart.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
And I've given movies that I was like pretty mixed
on the heart, but this one did not get it.
This one, it didn't get the heart.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
No, okay, So Megalopolis is an example of like a
movie that I gave it two and a half but
it has the heart, So right, right, you enjoyed yourself.
It's bad, but you enjoyed yourself. Yeah, But I think
that's that's all I have on the movie, anything else
from you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
I think that's all about it. Actually, you know what,
I'm curious. The Last One Joker twenty nineteen did pretty
good at the Academy Awards. You think this is getting
a single nomination?

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Man, I hope not. No, I don't think it will.
If it did get nominations, they would be back for
what they what they got nominated for, like In for
the first movie. But I think there are just too
many movies out there, or too many movies that came
out this year, that will beat it out in those categories.
You know, I agree with that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
And if it does, it's like cinematography and score, and
I don't think.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
Anything else and like In on those two fronts, like
I can think of like so many other movies that
should knock it out of those categories for cinematography a score.
You know now what I am worried about though, since
I brought a megalopolis, Like if that gets any love
at the Academy Awards, it's only because Francis ford Coppa's
name is attached to it, that is all.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
It's like if it's a pity oscar.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
If it gets anything, yeah, it's it's honorary oscars if
you will.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Like it's them, it's them saying I know he's pretty
old and he probably doesn't have a whole lot of
these left in him, so give him the nomination.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
But yeah, if if any if like, if he has
any more left in him, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
But yeah, I agree, so we'll see.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
But all right, before we go, you want to plug
the pod and your socials.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
Yeah, you can find our podcast, The Dive in Movie
Cast wherever you get your podcasts, Spotify, Apple Podcasts. You
can find our instagram at the Dive in Movies. We
recently updated our handle, same thing on our TikTok and
my individual Instagram is at Hayden Koutris and it's the
same name on my letterbox.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Okay, dang the the brand update The Dive in Movies.
Make sure you get the follow folks.

Speaker 2 (01:07:37):
Things are changing over here. We're gonna yeah, we're gonna
be doing some cool new stuff. I'm excited for for
what the next couple months will bring.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
Yeah, absolutely, And I am liking your because I think
we talked off pod about this. But the short form
content that you're starting to put out on uh, on
TikTok and and Instagram, those are those are top notch? Thanks?

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Man. I feel like there's certain there's certain movies where
I'm I have to talk about this, but I do
not have forty five minutes to an hour to talk
about it. So and also it's cool to get like
the early buzz out there and get some reactions from
people if I managed to see something early or see it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
On opening night for sure. Well, folks, thanks for listening,
and please follow us on socials as well at Kuyperculture.
This podcast is available where we get your podcasts. Until
the next pod, we will catch you guys, best time,
so peace.